Turn or Burn? – Luke 13:1-5

Summary

Grace in Focus — Episode Summary

Episode Title: Turn or Burn? – Luke 13:1-5
Hosts: Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates (Grace Evangelical Society)
Date: September 2, 2025
Duration: ~13 minutes

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Overview

In this episode, Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates tackle one of Scripture's so-called "tough texts": Luke 13:1–5. The discussion centers on Jesus' warning about perishing unless one repents, and the hosts explore whether Jesus was speaking about eternal damnation or something else. Using their Free Grace perspective, Wilkin and Yates clarify the distinction between justification and sanctification, touch on dispensationalism, and debunk common misunderstandings related to repentance, perishing, and salvation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction of the Passage (01:03–03:49)

• The hosts introduce the "tough text" of Luke 13:1–5, where Jesus discusses two tragedies: Galileans killed by Pilate, and people killed by the falling Tower of Siloam.
• Bob notes, "As we go into this passage... dispensationalism and eschatology [come up]. Who do we think the Lord is dealing with here? Is he talking about the church or is he talking about Israel?" (01:50)
• The duo distinguishes between Israel and the Church—fundamental in dispensational interpretation.

Unpacking the Text: What Does "Perish" Mean? (03:49–06:41)

• The passage is read aloud, with a focus on the repetition of "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
• Ken points out, "'Likewise' is comparing to something. Now, what is the likewise perish looking back to...?" (03:49)
• Bob clarifies, "It means they physically died." (04:15)
• Both assert "perish" means physical death, not eternal damnation, as commonly interpreted:
  • "If a plane crashes and you say everybody on board perished... there might have been believers on board. So perish there wouldn't mean go to hell." — Bob, (05:04)
• They cite biblical examples (the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho) showing believers can physically die in judgments without this implying loss of salvation.

Historical and Prophetic Context: AD 70 and the Nation of Israel (07:15–09:42)

• Bob shares a personal anecdote about his changing understanding of repentance linked to this passage, influenced by Zane Hodges:
  • "He said, I think maybe Luke 13, 3 and 5 refers to AD 70. And he's saying, unless you as a nation repent, then the nation is going to be destroyed." (07:47)
• "In AD 70... the Romans came in and burned the city to the ground... killed over a million." — Bob, (07:47)
• The nation of Israel (not individual salvation) is the primary audience; Jesus warns of a coming judgment unless national repentance occurs.
• Repentance is characterized as a "change of mind about sins," not "change of mind about Christ" as sometimes taught.

Repentance: Its Biblical Application (09:42–12:41)

• The hosts reaffirm that Jesus addresses Israel, not the Church, and speaks of national/physical fate.
• Ken: "He's literally talking about Jews who are going to perish. And he's talking about them physically dying." (10:06)
• The point: repentance here would have physically saved lives, not granted eternal salvation.
• The application: misreading this text leads people to wrongly conflate repentance for salvation with repentance from sin for fellowship/blessing.
• Critique of common evangelical messaging (“turn or burn”):
  • "I can't tell you how many people I've heard say it's by faith alone. And then... they say, therefore if you repent and believe, they don't seem to realize that's a disconnect." — Ken, (11:44)
• Ken references Ezekiel 18 and the phrase "turn and live," another example of repentance resulting in physical—not eternal—life.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Alliteration:
  "You know what, Ken? I love alliteration... tough text. T.T." — Ken Yates, (01:15)
• Key Distinction:
  "Israel is not the church, and church is not Israel. Now, most Bible teachers today do not believe that." — Bob, (02:22)
• About Perishing:
  "Perish here doesn't mean go to hell. Perish here means physically die." — Ken, (04:41)
• Application Warning:
  "The fact that someone dies physically doesn't prove they're an unbeliever, obviously. I hope not, or there would be no believer." — Ken, (06:28)
• Historical Insight:
  "Unless you as a nation repent, then the nation is going to be destroyed." — Bob, referencing Zane Hodges, (07:47)
• Repentance Defined:
  "Metanoia and metano never refer to changing your mind about Christ... they're always a change of mind about sins." — Ken, (08:58)
• Dispensational Clarity:
  "This is clearly talking to Jews, clearly talking about Israel, the nation. This isn't to the church." — Ken, (11:58)
• On Repentance in Evangelism:
  "It's so sad to me... I've heard lots of pastors... say, therefore if you repent and believe, then you will be born again. They don't seem to realize that's a disconnect." — Ken, (11:44)
• Old Testament Parallels:
  "Ezekiel is not saying, turn and you'll go to heaven... This is about physical life and physical death." — Ken, referencing Feinberg, (12:33)

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Timestamps for Critical Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |------------|------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:03–01:50| Setting up the distinction between Israel & the Church | | 03:49–04:47| Explanation that "perish" means physical death, not hell | | 05:18–06:28| Examples: Flood, Sodom, Jericho—believers can die in judgments | | 07:15–07:47| Hodges' view: Prophecy of AD 70, a judgment on Israel | | 09:42–10:28| Text's direct address to Jews, not generic or future Christians | | 11:04–11:44| Critique of "turn or burn" and faith-plus-repentance gospel | | 12:14–12:41| Application of Ezekiel 18, emphasizing physical—not eternal—life |

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Takeaways

• Luke 13:1-5 is about physical judgment on Israel, not eternal condemnation.
• The call to repentance in these verses is about turning from sin to avoid temporal judgment, not a requirement for eternal salvation.
• The hosts affirm the distinction between justification (faith alone) and sanctification (discipleship, fellowship, avoiding discipline).
• Common evangelical evangelism formulas conflate two biblical uses of repentance, often leading to confusion.
• Dispensationalism is essential to properly interpreting tough texts that concern Israel and national destiny.

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For Free Grace Theology followers, this episode underscores the crucial interpretive principle: always ask who is being addressed and what is at stake—physical or eternal consequences?

Transcript

[A]

The following is a listener supported ministry.

[B]

From the Grace Evangelical Society.

[A]

Another tough text Today, from Luke 13:1 5, Jesus talks about some people who died, some because of Pilate's meanness and some others who died because the tower fell and they happened to be under it. Why did Jesus talk about this? What should it mean to those who heard it and to us, if anything? Thank you for joining us today, friend. This is Grace in Focus.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

The broadcast and podcast ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. You can learn more about us at our website, faithalone.org including our free online seminary, Grace Evangelical Seminary. Yes, it is free if you maintain a 3.0 or better grade point average and you can go all the way to earning an M. Div. Degree. Find out more. Go through the application [e-mail] and now with our discussion of the day, here's Bob Wilkin along with Ken Yates.

[B]

Bob, we're going to discuss another what we're calling tough text, where people have a tendency to add works to the gospel of eternal life.

[C]

You know what, Ken? I love alliteration.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

You know why tough text is alliterative?

[B]

No.

[C]

Because alliteration means you repeat the first letter or sound.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So like tough text. T.T.

[B]

Right.

[C]

That's alliterative. Or problem passages. That's alliterative.

[B]

Okay. I thought you were going to talk about something really deep there.

[C]

You know, that's my.

[B]

Oh, just TT that's it. Or problem passages.

[C]

PP it is so good to have you here.

[B]

We're such deep theologians here.

[C]

Yeah, I'm learning all these key things.

[B]

Well, one of the tough texts in this podcast, we're looking at Luke, chapter 13, verses 1 through 5. And as we go into this passage, I think one of the things that's going to come out, and this is fairly common in these tough texts, is dispensationalism and eschatology. Who do we think the Lord is dealing with here? Is he talking about the church or is he talking about Israel? Of course, in dispensationalism we make a distinction between the church and Israel.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Israel is not the church, and church is not Israel. Now, most Bible teachers today do not believe that. And so they're going to come and look at this passage in a different way.

[C]

You're right. Why don't we read the first five verses and then we can go and look at the details.

[B]

Okay. And I would invite to think, what do you think the Lord is talking about here? Okay. So in Luke 13:1, there were present at that season some who told him about the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices? And Jesus answered and said to them, do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered such things? I tell you, no. But unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Now, we ought to stop right there and just say okay. You know, most people will come and say okay, Perish means go to hell. That's the way most people are going to take this. And so you got to repent if you don't want to go to hell. And so there's the issue here. And verse four, he gives another example. Or those 18 on whom the tower of Siloam fell and killed them. Do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you no. And then he repeats it. But unless you repent, you will all likewise. That's an important word, likewise, perish.

[C]

Okay, yeah, I agree. One of the words missed a lot is likewise in both verses 3 and 5. Likewise is comparing to something. Now, what is the likewise perish looking back to in verse four?

[B]

Well, in verse four, it's. There's a tower that fell on 18 people and killed them.

[C]

Okay, so what does parish mean in verse four?

[B]

Yeah, that's the key. It means they physically died.

[C]

Right. So if he says likew perish, wouldn't it be likewise be killed?

[B]

Yeah, like you'll likewise die. You'll likewise die. And by the way, in the first one, that's the other part, right. In the Galileans, Pilate killed them.

[C]

Right. He mingled their blood with their sacrifices by killing them. And then he says, in three, which you mentioned, they'll likewise, likewise die.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Perish. So perish here doesn't mean go to hell. Perish here means physically die.

[B]

And I just want to stop right there.

[C]

Is it possible?

[B]

And I'll just ask, could those Galileans have included believers and the people that the tower fell on?

[C]

Sure.

[B]

You know, and so you could have people who were believers who perished in these two instances.

[C]

Right, right.

[B]

I mean, it's like if a plane crashes and you say everybody on board perished. Well, there might have been believers on board.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And so, yeah, they. Okay, so perish there wouldn't mean go to hell. Just like they. It doesn't mean here. Right.

[C]

Well, you know, there's lots of examples in the flood. Everybody who die in the flood. Unregenerate. I don't think so. I think there were probably thousands of believers who died and probably others who weren't believers when the flood started. I remember one Bible teacher saying, John Whitcomb, that as the flood waters would have come up, they would have gone to higher ground. They would have been climbing the mountains and. And he said they would have thought about what Noah had preached, which he certainly would have preached, the coming Messiah. And some of them probably were born again after the flood started, but before they drowned.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[C]

And so you would have. And the same thing with Sodom and Gomorrah. Everybody in Sodom and Gomorrah unregenerate.

[B]

I don't think Lot's wife was an unbeliever.

[C]

No. And not only that, the son in laws might sound like they might have been believers.

[B]

Right.

[C]

They thought what they were saying was fanciful, but the son in laws might have been believers. So there could have been multiple believers in the city, but they died. And the same thing would be true in lots of places. If God hadn't spared Rahab and her family, you would have had believers dying in Jericho.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I mean, for all we know, some of the people who did die might have been believers. So the fact that someone dies physically doesn't prove they're an unbeliever, obviously. I hope not, or there would be no believer.

[A]

You are invited to subscribe to the Grace Evangelical Society's YouTube channel. You will find our Monday, Wednesday and Friday videos there enlightening and encouraging and even probably humorous at times. If you like Bob Wilkins humor, indeed you will get biblical truth about free grace themes like faith alone for eternal salvation and why the Grace evangelical society is zero point Calvinistic. We come your way three times a week at the Grace Evangelical YouTube channel. Check it out and tell a friend about the Grace Evangelical Society.

[C]

I remember I was in the doctoral program and I was doing. I wrote my dissertation on repentance and I thought there were 11 passages that talked about linked repentance and salvation from eternal condemnation. And I thought this was one of them. And I remember I met with Zane Hodges, he was my first reader and he said, I think maybe Luke 13, 3 and 5 refers to AD 70. And he's saying, unless you as a nation repent, then the nation is going to be destroyed.

[B]

And of course, in AD 70, that's what happened. That's what Zane was talking about, that in A.D. 70, the Romans came in and burned the city to the ground. The temple. Destroyed the temple and took the Jews off into captivity and killed over a million.

[C]

I think it was 1.8 million people.

[B]

According to Josephus, Right, yeah.

[C]

So lots of Jews were killed and the nation itself was sent in exile and it didn't become a nation again until 1948. And so I didn't accept it at that point, but I continued to study. I finished my dissertation in 85, and by 1997, 12 years later, Zane had convinced me that there were no passages that teach, you need to repent to be born again.

[B]

And now if you said there were 11 and you went from 1985 to 1997, that's less than one a year. You're kind of slow there, Bob.

[C]

I was kind of slow. Well, it was a big move. I was holding the change of mind view. So I was suggesting that what they were saying is, unless you change your mind about me, you're going to go to hell. But I came to see that metanoia and metano never refer to changing your mind about Christ.

[B]

And those words, metanoia, metanoe is the verb and noun for repent and repentance.

[C]

Right. And so as a result, I came to see that they're always a change of mind about sins and that a good translation would be repent or repentance. And so, yes, Israel needed to turn from its sins in order for the kingdom to come. You see that in you wrote a commentary on Mark. Mark 1:14 and 15 says that you need to believe that the kingdom has drawn near and you need to be a repentant nation. And if they were believing and repentant, then the kingdom would come. But the kingdom is not going to come for Israel. Simply, if it's a believing nation, it also has to be in fellowship.

[B]

What Bob and I are both saying is that these verses Here in Luke 13 are directed to the nation of Israel and even Jesus words here. Notice the Galileans. The Galileans, you know, those in Jerusalem. Jerusalem. I mean, he's talking to the Jews here.

[C]

I mean, we're not talking figuratively here. He's literally talking about Galileans. He's literally talking about those in Jerusalem.

[B]

And he says, you guys, right?

[C]

And he's literally talking about Jews who are going to perish. And he's talking about them physically dying. Of course, the Lord taught on many occasions there was going to be this coming destruction. Remember that not one stone in the temple was going to be left unturned. He knew what was coming, and he knew they weren't going to repent too. But he still gave them the opportunity.

[B]

Yeah. And so the repentance here would have saved their lives, literally. And that's what the Lord is talking about. They all knew these stories about the people that Pilate killed, Right. They also knew the story about the people who died when that tower fell upon them.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And it's interesting. The people that Jesus is talking to would not have thought, oh, he's talking about going to hell.

[C]

No.

[B]

They would have said, oh yeah, yeah, we know those guys who died. What a tragedy. You know, Pilate was cruel to them and he killed them. And the same with those people who died when the tower fell.

[C]

We've entitled this message turn or burn, question mark.

[B]

Right.

[C]

It's so sad to me. I don't know if you've ever heard this, Kim, but I've heard lots of pastors, especially Southern Baptist pastors, and they will say something like this. In order to be saved, you need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. In order to be justified, you simply need to believe in. In Jesus Christ. So if you will just repent and believe, then you will be born again.

[B]

You'll also hear people say you got to turn or burn.

[C]

Right? But I can't tell you how many people I've heard say it's by faith alone. And then they turn around and say, therefore if you repent and believe, they don't seem to realize that's a disconnect.

[B]

I think this is a great passage too, of what we talked about when we introduced this series on tough text. And that is when you look at the context, who is being spoken to.

[C]

I love that. And also the dispensational distinctive you talked about.

[B]

Right.

[C]

This is clearly talking to Jews, clearly talking about Israel, the nation. This isn't to the church, talking about the church now. It does have application for us. If we don't repent, if we don't turn from our sinful ways, we're going.

[B]

To die prematurely and he's certainly going to discipline us for our sins. Right.

[C]

Well, that's why I called my book on repentance, Turn and Live, the Power of Repentance. Because in Ezekiel 18, that's what the prophet says, turn and live. Because God doesn't want you to die, O Israel.

[B]

And Ezekiel is not saying, turn and you'll go to heaven.

[C]

No, no. In fact, Feinberg in his commentary on Ezekiel said, this isn't about eternal life and eternal. This is about physical life and physical death.

[B]

Although a lot of people will use it for eternal life. Well, thanks, Bob. Great discussion on Luke 13:1 5 turn or burn. And now remember, keep grace in.

[A]

Would you be interested in some free ebooks on topics you hear on this program. Well, if you are, you need to come Visit [e-mail] that's faithalone.org we would love to hear from you. Maybe you've got a question, comment or some feedback. If you do, please don't hesitate to send us a message. Here's our email address. It's radioaithalone.org that's radioaithalone.org and when you do very important, please let us know your radio station call letters and the city of your location on our next episode. Three Lost Things, A Sheep, A Coin, and a Son. Come back and join us. And in the meantime, let's keep Grace in focus.

[B]

The proceeding has been a listener supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society.