Grace in Focus — Episode Summary

Episode Title: Turn or Burn? – Luke 13:1-5
Hosts: Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates (Grace Evangelical Society)
Date: September 2, 2025
Duration: ~13 minutes

Overview

In this episode, Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates tackle one of Scripture's so-called "tough texts": Luke 13:1–5. The discussion centers on Jesus' warning about perishing unless one repents, and the hosts explore whether Jesus was speaking about eternal damnation or something else. Using their Free Grace perspective, Wilkin and Yates clarify the distinction between justification and sanctification, touch on dispensationalism, and debunk common misunderstandings related to repentance, perishing, and salvation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction of the Passage (01:03–03:49)

• The hosts introduce the "tough text" of Luke 13:1–5, where Jesus discusses two tragedies: Galileans killed by Pilate, and people killed by the falling Tower of Siloam.
• Bob notes, "As we go into this passage... dispensationalism and eschatology [come up]. Who do we think the Lord is dealing with here? Is he talking about the church or is he talking about Israel?" (01:50)
• The duo distinguishes between Israel and the Church—fundamental in dispensational interpretation.

Unpacking the Text: What Does "Perish" Mean? (03:49–06:41)

• The passage is read aloud, with a focus on the repetition of "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
• Ken points out, "'Likewise' is comparing to something. Now, what is the likewise perish looking back to...?" (03:49)
• Bob clarifies, "It means they physically died." (04:15)
• Both assert "perish" means physical death, not eternal damnation, as commonly interpreted:
  • "If a plane crashes and you say everybody on board perished... there might have been believers on board. So perish there wouldn't mean go to hell." — Bob, (05:04)
• They cite biblical examples (the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho) showing believers can physically die in judgments without this implying loss of salvation.

Historical and Prophetic Context: AD 70 and the Nation of Israel (07:15–09:42)

• Bob shares a personal anecdote about his changing understanding of repentance linked to this passage, influenced by Zane Hodges:
  • "He said, I think maybe Luke 13, 3 and 5 refers to AD 70. And he's saying, unless you as a nation repent, then the nation is going to be destroyed." (07:47)
• "In AD 70... the Romans came in and burned the city to the ground... killed over a million." — Bob, (07:47)
• The nation of Israel (not individual salvation) is the primary audience; Jesus warns of a coming judgment unless national repentance occurs.
• Repentance is characterized as a "change of mind about sins," not "change of mind about Christ" as sometimes taught.

Repentance: Its Biblical Application (09:42–12:41)

• The hosts reaffirm that Jesus addresses Israel, not the Church, and speaks of national/physical fate.
• Ken: "He's literally talking about Jews who are going to perish. And he's talking about them physically dying." (10:06)
• The point: repentance here would have physically saved lives, not granted eternal salvation.
• The application: misreading this text leads people to wrongly conflate repentance for salvation with repentance from sin for fellowship/blessing.
• Critique of common evangelical messaging (“turn or burn”):
  • "I can't tell you how many people I've heard say it's by faith alone. And then... they say, therefore if you repent and believe, they don't seem to realize that's a disconnect." — Ken, (11:44)
• Ken references Ezekiel 18 and the phrase "turn and live," another example of repentance resulting in physical—not eternal—life.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Alliteration:
  "You know what, Ken? I love alliteration... tough text. T.T." — Ken Yates, (01:15)
• Key Distinction:
  "Israel is not the church, and church is not Israel. Now, most Bible teachers today do not believe that." — Bob, (02:22)
• About Perishing:
  "Perish here doesn't mean go to hell. Perish here means physically die." — Ken, (04:41)
• Application Warning:
  "The fact that someone dies physically doesn't prove they're an unbeliever, obviously. I hope not, or there would be no believer." — Ken, (06:28)
• Historical Insight:
  "Unless you as a nation repent, then the nation is going to be destroyed." — Bob, referencing Zane Hodges, (07:47)
• Repentance Defined:
  "Metanoia and metano never refer to changing your mind about Christ... they're always a change of mind about sins." — Ken, (08:58)
• Dispensational Clarity:
  "This is clearly talking to Jews, clearly talking about Israel, the nation. This isn't to the church." — Ken, (11:58)
• On Repentance in Evangelism:
  "It's so sad to me... I've heard lots of pastors... say, therefore if you repent and believe, then you will be born again. They don't seem to realize that's a disconnect." — Ken, (11:44)
• Old Testament Parallels:
  "Ezekiel is not saying, turn and you'll go to heaven... This is about physical life and physical death." — Ken, referencing Feinberg, (12:33)

Timestamps for Critical Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |------------|------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:03–01:50| Setting up the distinction between Israel & the Church | | 03:49–04:47| Explanation that "perish" means physical death, not hell | | 05:18–06:28| Examples: Flood, Sodom, Jericho—believers can die in judgments | | 07:15–07:47| Hodges' view: Prophecy of AD 70, a judgment on Israel | | 09:42–10:28| Text's direct address to Jews, not generic or future Christians | | 11:04–11:44| Critique of "turn or burn" and faith-plus-repentance gospel | | 12:14–12:41| Application of Ezekiel 18, emphasizing physical—not eternal—life |

Takeaways

• Luke 13:1-5 is about physical judgment on Israel, not eternal condemnation.
• The call to repentance in these verses is about turning from sin to avoid temporal judgment, not a requirement for eternal salvation.
• The hosts affirm the distinction between justification (faith alone) and sanctification (discipleship, fellowship, avoiding discipline).
• Common evangelical evangelism formulas conflate two biblical uses of repentance, often leading to confusion.
• Dispensationalism is essential to properly interpreting tough texts that concern Israel and national destiny.

For Free Grace Theology followers, this episode underscores the crucial interpretive principle: always ask who is being addressed and what is at stake—physical or eternal consequences?