What Are Hell and The Lake of Fire Like?

Summary

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Grace in Focus — Episode Summary

Episode Title: What Are Hell and The Lake of Fire Like?

Date: December 3, 2025
Hosts: Bob Wilkin (Grace Evangelical Society), Philippe Sterling
Duration: ~13 minutes

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Bob Wilkin and Philippe Sterling dig into the biblical concepts of Hell, Sheol, Hades, and the Lake of Fire, exploring what happens to unbelievers after death according to Scripture. They contrast popular and medieval conceptions of Hell with what is actually taught in the Bible and stress biblical accuracy over speculation or tradition.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Distinguishing Between Sheol/Hades and the Lake of Fire

• Sheol/Hades as Present Abode (01:37-03:19):

  • In the Old Testament, the dead go to Sheol; in Greek, it becomes Hades.
  • Both believers and unbelievers used to go to Sheol/Hades, but into different "compartments."
  • After Christ's resurrection and ascension, believers are now with Christ in "paradise" (i.e., the third heaven).

• Lake of Fire as Future Judgment (01:01-01:44; 05:27-05:53):

  • Unbelievers now await final judgment (the Great White Throne, Revelation 20:11-15) in Hades.
  • Only after this do they enter the Lake of Fire, which is distinct from Hades.

2. Paradise and Its Relocation

• Paradise’s Location Over Time (02:52–04:45):
  • Jesus refers to “paradise” when speaking to the thief on the cross. At first, paradise was a compartment in Sheol/Hades.
  • Post-ascension, paradise is now in the "third heaven" with Christ.
  • Scriptural references: Luke 16 (rich man and Lazarus), 2 Corinthians 12 (Paul’s vision), Revelation 2–3 (the tree of life in the paradise of God).
  • “Paradise” is understood as “an enclosed garden” or place of fellowship with God.

3. The Nature of Torment in Hades and the Lake of Fire

• Psychological vs. Physical Torment (06:08–09:36):

  • The torment described is likely not torture by demons or fire as in medieval depictions, but may be emotional, spiritual, and psychological.
  • Some (e.g., Boa) say it is only psychological; Bob Wilkin believes it is both physical and psychological.
  • Jesus’ comment on “more tolerable” judgment implies different degrees of suffering: “The fact that he even uses the expression more tolerable suggests it will be tolerable for all” (Bob Wilkin, 07:14).
  • The experience is not unbearable but rather, as Bob Wilkin describes, “a painful, tolerable experience, much like people on Earth experience today” (08:40).

• Rejecting Medieval Depictions (08:10–09:36):

  • Traditional imagery (flames, chains, demons with pitchforks) originates from medieval theology and works like Dante’s Inferno, not Scripture.
  • Example: In Luke 16, the rich man is “in torment in these flames,” but does not say he is physically burning.

4. The State and Place of These Realms

• Theories on Location (09:46–10:46):
  • Hades/Sheol traditionally understood as being in the "center of the Earth," possibly a supernatural compartment.
  • The final Lake of Fire may be on another “planet” or realm entirely: “I think it’s probably a planet not in our universe” (Bob Wilkin, 10:36).
  • Bob and Philippe jokingly discuss “lakefront property” as a metaphor for differences in experience among inhabitants, but clarify the seriousness of the judgment (11:00-11:04).

5. Evangelism: Focus on the Promise, Not the Threat

• Gospel Focused on Life, Not Death (11:35–12:41):

  • Jesus, especially in the Gospel of John, did not center his evangelism on threatening people with Hell or Hades.
  • Instead, he offered eternal life as a free gift — “the guarantee of no condemnation.”
  • Suggestion: Preach the positive message of eternal life, not speculation on the afterlife for unbelievers.

• Scriptural Data is Limited (12:41–12:58):

  • “The Bible really doesn’t tell us what Hades is like now, and it doesn’t tell us what the Lake of Fire is going to be like. There’s very little data in the Bible” (Bob Wilkin, 12:41).
  • Encourage careful, ‘Berean-like’ study rather than speculation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Multiple Compartments of the Afterlife:

  • “Sheol and Hades were the destination of both the believing and unbelieving for a period of time until the resurrection and ascension of Jesus.” — Philippe Sterling (01:44)

• On the Seriousness, Yet Tolerability, of Judgment:

  • “I take it that it is torment, but it’s going to be tolerable. So in my view, a lot of the stuff you talked about is medieval theology.” — Bob Wilkin (08:12)

• On Medieval Imagery:

  • “There’s nothing in Scripture like… flames were coming out of every pore of their skin and they were on fire...” — Bob Wilkin (08:40)

• On the Uncertainty of the Exact Location:

  • “I think it’s probably a planet not in our universe.” — Bob Wilkin (10:36)

• On Evangelism and Assurance:

  • “The focus is just the offer of everlasting life is the focus and not what, not believing.” — Philippe Sterling (11:35)

• On Scriptural Limits:

  • “Most of what people talk about when they talk about hell is actually made up. It’s coming out of medieval guessing and speculation, not coming out of the Bible.” — Bob Wilkin (12:50)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:01–01:44: Introduction to the future of unbelievers: Sheol, Hades, the Lake of Fire.
• 02:12–03:19: Distinction between present and future states; Luke 16 and the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
• 03:29–04:27: Paul’s vision of paradise—its location post-ascension.
• 05:27–05:53: Transition from Hades to the Lake of Fire (post-Great White Throne Judgment).
• 06:08–07:14: Nature of torment — psychological vs. physical, levels of “tolerability.”
• 08:10–09:36: Challenge to medieval notions of torment; a “tolerable” but not pleasant experience.
• 09:46–10:46: Theories about the physical “location” of Sheol/Hades and the Lake of Fire.
• 11:35–12:58: Emphasis on the biblical focus in evangelism; Scriptural restraint regarding details about the afterlife for unbelievers.

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Takeaways

• The biblical data on Hell, Hades, and the Lake of Fire is limited and should be interpreted with care.
• Much of what people believe about Hell derives from tradition and art, not from direct Scriptural teaching.
• Current and future states for unbelievers (Hades now, Lake of Fire after judgment) are places of “torment” but not the hyperbolic suffering portrayed in pop-culture.
• Evangelism should emphasize the free gift of eternal life rather than threats of post-mortem punishment.
• The podcast encourages listeners to study the Bible directly (“be Bereans”) rather than rely on extra-biblical or medieval speculation.

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For further study:

• Revelation 20:11-15
• Luke 16:19-31
• 2 Corinthians 12:1-4
• John chapters 3 and 5

Next Episode Preview: Annihilationism and Universalism: Where do they fit?

Transcript

[Narrator]

The following is a listener supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society.

[Host]

Have you ever wondered what Hell and the Lake of Fire are really like? There's been lots of medieval influence and speculation, but what does the Bible say? Welcome to Grace in Focus. This is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. We're delighted that you've joined us today. There's lots to learn about us at our website, faithalone.org we hope you'll go there. Many books in our bookstore, a free online seminary and a school especially. We want you to register for the 2026 version of our national annual conference, May 18th through the 21st. We'd love for you to be in our number as we have fellowship and teaching and recreation around the theme of Believe in Jesus for life. Get all the registration details, get signed [e-mail] and now with today's discussion, here are Bob Wilken and Phillipe Sterling.

[Bob Wilkin]

We have touched some of the issues related to the future of believers, but we haven't yet talked about the future of unbelievers. Unbelievers are going to go to a judgment called the Great White throne Judgment Revelation 20:11 15, which we can discuss in a different episode. But for this episode after that they're sent to a place called the Lake of Fire. But before that, an unbeliever who dies goes to a different place than the Lake of Fire. So what's that place called?

[Philippe Sterling]

Yes, in the Old Testament it's Sheol. Sheol and then the Greek understanding then becomes Hades.

[Bob Wilkin]

Okay.

[Philippe Sterling]

And that's Sheol. Hades is the unbelieving dead. That is where they're at presently, awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment. And Jesus comments on that both before the rapture and after his resurrection, certainly when a believer goes to be with him. But Sheol and Hades were the destination of both the believing and unbelieving for a period of time until the resurrection and ascension of Jesus.

[Bob Wilkin]

Right. So like in Luke 16, 1931 you have this story of the rich man and Lazarus, which some people say that's a parable. I doubt it because no other parable has proper names. And Lazarus and Abraham are both named. Yes, but in any case the rich man goes to the bad part of.

[Philippe Sterling]

Sheol or Haiti as you've called it, the non air condition portion of Sheol and in Hades. And then there's probably could be called paradise where Abraham's bosom as some call it because of the Luke 16 and.

[Bob Wilkin]

We do know it's called paradise because Jesus said to the thief on the.

[Philippe Sterling]

Cross, yeah, you will be wept me in Paradise.

[Bob Wilkin]

In paradise. And Jesus didn't immediately after he died, he didn't go to the third heaven, he went to Sheol or Hades. So for a time all the dead went there. But there were two compartments, one with all of the believers who had died and one for unbelievers. But then when Jesus ascended, he took all of the believers with him.

[Philippe Sterling]

And so paradise now as far as we can understand, I think is in the third heaven. To be absent from the body is to be present of the Lord, as Paul will put it.

[Bob Wilkin]

Do you have your Bible there? Look at Second Corinthians 13. I think it's around verses one or.

[Philippe Sterling]

Two where Paul talks about himself caught up to paradise.

[Bob Wilkin]

Yeah, and he's evidently talking about himself in some sort of out of body experience.

[Philippe Sterling]

In fact, I'll read that second Corinthians chapter 12, beginning with verse one. He says, it is doubtless not profitable for me to boast, but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who 14 years ago, whether in the body I do not know or whether out of the body I do not know. God knows such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And he says, and I know such a man, whether in the body or out of the body I do not know. God knows how he was caught up into paradise and heard inexpressible words which is not lawful for a man to utter. So Paul says he was caught up to paradise.

[Bob Wilkin]

Right. So paradise changes. When Jesus is in Sheol, that's paradise. When Jesus is in the third heaven, that's paradise. Now also the word paradise occurs I think in. Is it Revelation 2? It's either verses 7 or 17 about.

[Philippe Sterling]

The tree of life which is in the paradise of God. That's letter to the church at Ephesus and the promise to the overcomer. They are to have access to the fruit of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God.

[Bob Wilkin]

Those are the only three references to paradise in the New Testament. Now some say that the Greek word in the Greek Old Testament for the garden of Eden.

[Philippe Sterling]

Yes, paradise just basically means garden, an enclosed garden in the Persian Empire. I think it's a Persian loan word actually paradise, you know, is. But the idea of being in the garden, like a garden of Eden and we have the Lord present to fellowship with.

[Bob Wilkin]

Let's talk about currently, what are the unbelievers experiencing now in Sheol, Hades. And then let's talk about what will they experience in the lake of fire which is not the same as Sheol and Hades. Right. Because we're told in Revelation 20 that Hades gave up the dead that were in it, and they were then cast into the Lake of Fire after the Great White Throne.

[Philippe Sterling]

Yes. So the Lake of Fire is a different state than that which is presently experienced by the unbelieving in Hades. Now, in the account of Jesus of Lazarus and the rich man, it says that the rich man was in torment.

[Bob Wilkin]

Right.

[Philippe Sterling]

But we may want to talk about a little bit about what the idea of torment is. I don't think it's torture by devils with pitchforks or anything, you know, like that, but it is a state of torment, a psychological state of some sorts and experience of an existence separate from God and separate from all of the creation blessings of God.

[Bob Wilkin]

Yeah. Some people argue that, like Boa. I believe in his book. I discuss this in the 10 most misunderstood words of my chapter on Hell. He thinks that the torment in the Lake of Fire is going to be psychological and spiritual and emotional, not physical. But that would be torment. But my view is it's both physical and emotional, spiritual, psychological. But in light of the fact that Jesus said it'll be more tolerable for those in Sodom and Gomorrah than for the people in Israel who have not believed in him, the fact that he even uses the expression more tolerable suggests it will be tolerable for all.

[Announcer]

We will rejoin in just a moment. But years ago, Zane Hodges wrote the Gospel Under Siege. Sadly, this is still true. And GES President Bob Wilkin has recently written its sequel. Bob's new book, the Gospel is Still Under Siege, is a book about theological clarity on the biblical teaching about eternal salvation. It is available now. Secure yours today at the Grace Evangelical Society's bookstore. Find [e-mail] store. That's faithalone.org store. Now back to today's content.

[Bob Wilkin]

And so I don't view the current situation in Hades as intolerable, nor do I view the situation in the Lake of Fire as intolerable. But it seems to me we got to avoid two extremes. One extreme is to say, hey, it's going to be like a country club. It's going to be great. Or the people currently in Hades are just.

[Philippe Sterling]

Yeah, they're not going to be partying with each other.

[Bob Wilkin]

They're like in a federal prison and they're watching TV and lifting weights all the time. No, I take it that it is torment, but it's going to be tolerable. So in my view, a lot of the stuff you talked about is medieval theology. It's Dante's Inferno with the chains. And they would say flames were coming out of every pore of their skin and they were on fire, or they.

[Philippe Sterling]

Were buffeted by winds and circling and all of that.

[Bob Wilkin]

There's nothing in scripture like Even in Luke 16, the rich man doesn't say he's on fire. He says, I'm in torment in these flames, in this fiery environment. And so I take it that it's going to be a painful experience. But I think it's going to be a painful, tolerable experience, much like people on Earth experience today. In other words, if we live forever in these decaying bodies, in these broken mortal bodies, that would not be a good situation. Right. You would permanently have pain and suffering, be in a body that was a sinful body. So the way I view it is the people currently in Hades or Sheol are experiencing torment, but it's tolerable torment. And that'll be true in the lake of fire.

[Philippe Sterling]

But.

[Bob Wilkin]

But what they're not experiencing is the glory and honor and joy that will be experienced in the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Philippe Sterling]

Yes. So there is this intermediate state now for the unbelieving and for the believing. For the believing is to be in a paradise with the Lord and perhaps some kind of intermediate body even.

[Bob Wilkin]

And that's my view. I agree with you. I think because Samuel appears when Saul goes to the witch at Endor and. And Samuel looks like Samuel.

[Philippe Sterling]

Yes, the view as coming down from the earth and coming up. And so that carries the idea of a little, I think, Hades and Sheol and the two compartments being in the center of the Earth and being in the center of the Earth.

[Bob Wilkin]

That's my view too. Now it's a miracle because the center of the Earth is like the surface of the sun. It's molten and no life could exist there.

[Philippe Sterling]

Unless of course, there's a compartment that God supernaturally maintains. Right.

[Bob Wilkin]

And God's capable of doing that. And we don't know by the way where the Lake of Fire is going to be. I think it's probably a planet not in our universe. Probably some.

[Philippe Sterling]

That's how I view it, as some kind of a planet with land type existence. And I guess, you know, fiery lake.

[Bob Wilkin]

The worst people get the lakefront property, milder, unbelieving.

[Philippe Sterling]

They have some kind of up in the hills and up in the mountain.

[Bob Wilkin]

You know, but they still have torment. I don't mean to joke about the fact that it's not something desirable, but it is something which will be tolerable. And so I think it's important for us to recognize that unbelievers need to know that if they reject Christ. Well, they don't need to know this. Because when Jesus evangelized, look at the Gospel of John, he never talked about Sheol or Hades, rarely even talked about condemnation. He did in John 3:17.

[Philippe Sterling]

The focus is just the offer of everlasting life is the focus and not what, not believing.

[Bob Wilkin]

I think that's what we should do as well. I think we should tell people the message of the free gift of eternal life and the guarantee of no condemnation. I don't think we should be harping about what Hades is like now or what the Lake of Fire will be like in the future. Besides, as many commentators have pointed out, the Bible really doesn't tell us what Hades is like now, and it doesn't tell us what the Lake of Fire is going to be like. There's very little data in the Bible. I would encourage all of you to check it out. Read your Bibles, study carefully, everything you can read about the lake of Fire, which is going to be zilch. And then study what you can about Sheol or Hades, which is extremely limited also. And what you'll come to realize is most of what people talk about when they talk about hell is actually made up. It's coming out of medieval guessing and speculation, not coming out of the Bible. Well, thanks Philippe. We're out of time. I hope you all will be bereans and study the scriptures on these important eschatological issues. And in the meantime let's all keep grace in focus.

[Host]

We invite you to check out our Monday, Wednesday and Friday five minute YouTube videos at YouTube Grace Evangelical Society. You will love the content and learn a lot. Maybe you've got a question or comment or feedback. If so, please send us a message. Here's our email address. It's radioaithalone.org that's radioaithalone.org Please make sure your question is as succinct and clear as possible. That would be a great big help on the next episode. Annihilationism and Universalism. Where do they fit? Join us and in the meantime let's keep grace in focus.

[Narrator]

The proceeding has been a listener supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society.