A (2:54)

Now there are various forms of that. Some say that there's different people. There's a process of time, you know, where they are, they gradually then come to cease to exist.

C (3:05)

So some would see it as immediate, but some would see it as gradual.

A (3:09)

Yes. And then some will see that perhaps the devil and perhaps the angels and the beast, false prophets, do go on forever. They're in some kind of a conscious existence, but everyone else is annihilated, cease to exist. Their immortality is conditional. It ceases at some point.

C (3:29)

So I think it's. Is it Revelation 19:20 that says the beast and the false prophet were cast alive?

A (3:36)

Yeah. In fact, before the beginning of the millennial, in the period as Christ the Lamb comes in Revelation 19 and judges the nations gathered together, he does take the beast and the false prophet and cast them alive into the lake of fire. And they are there for the thousand years.

C (3:55)

But now after the thousand years, they need to be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment like everybody else. Right.

A (4:01)

That's an inference.

C (4:02)

Doesn't say specifically they could stay perpetually in the lake of fire, but they could be brought back for the Great White Throne judgment and then be cast again into the lake of fire.

A (4:13)

And presumably also, you know, when Satan and his angels are released in the final rebellion, we're not told exactly when they are put into the lake of fire, but we're told specifically by Jesus in Matthew 25 that the lake of fire was prepared initially for the devil and his angels.

C (4:32)

Not for human.

A (4:33)

Not for human.

C (4:34)

So annihilationism is also called conditional immortality. And in this view, at most there's two human beings that are going to spend forever in the lake of fire. That would be the beast and the false prophet. But maybe not even those two. Right?

A (4:50)

Yes, that will be our view that even they, they may cease to exist.

C (4:55)

So this is almost kind of like universalism, except in this view, the people who don't believe their light bulbs turned off. By the way, there's another view you haven't discussed. You mentioned eternal conscious torment. Well, there's another view that's eternal unconscious torment.

A (5:13)

It's called soul sleep. And some that hold to a soul sleep view even maintain that's both for unbelieving and believers until resurrection or glorification.

C (5:23)

Don't Jehovah's Witnesses believe that perhaps?

A (5:26)

I don't know specifically.

C (5:27)

I think they teach when people die, they become unconscious until their judgment. Now, of course, most people in Christianity don't believe the judgment seat of Christ is a judgment for church age believers.

A (5:41)

And for rewards.

C (5:42)

And for rewards, they think there's one judgment called the Great White Throne Judgment and the judgment seat of Christ is under the name for it.

B (5:50)

Did you know that the Grace Evangelical Society offers an M. Div. Degree through our online seminary and tuition is free to those who maintain a 3.0 grade average. It is a three year degree program and you could submit your application now to gain acceptance. Then stay apprised of our registration periods for upcoming semester terms. Program and application details can be found@gesceminary.org have a look at our MDIV degree. Become an approved workman. Find out how gesseminary.org I did a.

C (6:26)

Book called Four Views on the Role of Works at the Final Judgment with Zondervan and one of the people, Thomas Schreiner. He wrote in response to what I had said, I can't keep up with all these judgments. Wilkin has he's got the judgment of the sheep and the goats at one place and he's got the judgment seat of Christ at another place. He said all these judgments are one final judgment. And so he didn't see, I can't.

A (6:52)

Keep up with it. So I'm just going to put them all together. You know, why not correctly try to understand, interpret and correlate what the Scriptures say?

C (7:00)

That's my view. But this view of annihilationism or universalism, to me it springs from people imposing their own understanding of justice upon God. Yes, a friend of mine wrote something where he said, I consider it unjust just if God work to condemn to hell all those who never heard the name of Jesus and therefore never believed. So he's reasoning this way. Major premise God is just minor premise. It would be unjust to condemn anybody to hell who never heard the name of Jesus. Conclusion Anyone who never heard the name of Jesus gets eternal life the moment they die. That's his position. And people like that, often what they're doing is they're simply saying, I know better than God. What's just the Bible is pretty clear that those who don't believe are condemned forever. John 3:18 he who does not believe is condemned already and that condemnation is going to go on forever. And Revelation 2011:15 is very clear that the second death is being cast into the lake of fire. And of course Revelation 14:11 says the smoke of their torment goes up. Now some of these conditional people argue, well yeah, the smoke goes up forever, but they're annihilated, but they're still smoke. And I'm like, no, that's not what it means. It's clear that God if we go back to the creation In Genesis 1 and 2, God created humans as eternal beings, it's kind of like angels. Didn't he create angels as eternal beings?

A (8:46)

Yes. And if we were to bring up the question to people in the Lake of Fire, you know, will you choose to cease to exist or to still.

C (8:54)

Continue on, what do you think they would pick? Because I talked about this on our show a couple of weeks ago, and I'm sure some people think I'm nuts when I say that I think people in the Lake of Fire want to continue to exist.

A (9:07)

I think likewise, to be annihilated is nothing that anyone unbelieving or believing would want.

C (9:13)

Right. Unless you view the Lake of Fire as like eternal torture, like God is pulling out people's fingernails forever. God is torturing them forever. Read my book, the 10 Most Misunderstood Words. My chapter on Hell. I have quotes where a lot of preachers say, imagine the worst suffering on earth. Hell's worse than that. Well, they have no verse that says that, so they just make that statement without quoting some verses in parentheses, because there are no such verses. That the torment in Sheol or Hades right now is worse than anything on earth. There's no verse that says the future torment in the Lake of Fire is worse than anything on Earth. I would argue the polar opposite is true, that there's lots of suffering that people have undergone on Earth that's worse than the torment in the Lake of Fire. I'm not saying the Lake of Fire is going to be great. It's not.

A (10:09)

Torment is not torture.

C (10:11)

The Bible never describes it as torture. And we know that this word for torment occurs in the Book of Revelation for people during the Tribulation. They're going to be tormented when they're stung right by these scorpion like creatures and they're going to experience torment during Earth. So it's not right to say the Lake of Fire will be intolerable. And that's part of the reason why people go to annihilationism, don't you think?

A (10:38)

Yes. And it becomes an emotional reaction to this matter of thinking of it as torture.

C (10:44)

Yeah, I mean, I too would hold to universalism if I thought somehow that the Lake of Fire was eternal conscious torture. But it's not. It's torment. I say, I would hold that I wouldn't because the Scripture's clear that God created humans to live forever, and even those in the Lake of Fire will live forever. But it's a terrible misrepresentation of what the Lake of Fire will be like to say that it's going to be eternal torture. So we don't need to go to annihilationism or universalism in order for us to say, well, you know, unbelievers who've died are going to escape eternal torture. Of course they will, because God does not torture people. That's not who God is. And a lot of people, they want to preach hellfire and damnation when they evangelize, but what they're preaching is something that's not actually taught in Scripture because their view of hellfire and damnation is worse than what the Bible teaches.

A (11:49)

Yes. And that will have been come into account how we understand the purpose of the tribulation and even the judgments of the tribulation. That's another podcast.

C (11:58)

All right, well, very good. I hope you all will meditate and study on these issues because they're important ones. And I hope you won't adopt annihilationism or universalism because those views greatly diminish our desire to tell people the promise of eternal life. If we realize that those who don't believe are going to experience torment eternally and consciously, forever, then it highly motivates us to share the message of life with others. Don't you think, Philippe?

A (12:32)

Oh, absolutely. It is the purpose of even discussing these all matters of the end. Eschatology is really to encourage us to greater faithfulness in living to God's glory and in sharing a message of life and making disciples.

C (12:46)

Amen. Well, thanks so much everybody. And remember, let's keep grace in focus.

B (12:54)

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B (13:18)

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B (13:32)

On our next episode. What will it be like to be in a resurrected and glorified body? Please join us again and in the meantime, let's keep grace in focus.

A (13:45)

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