What Is the Difference Between Forgiveness and Cleansing?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Grace in Focus

Episode: What Is the Difference Between Forgiveness and Cleansing?
Date: February 13, 2026
Host: Bob Wilkin (with guest Ken Yates)
Produced by: Grace Evangelical Society

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Main Theme

In this episode, Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates engage in a thought-provoking discussion on the nuanced theological distinction between "forgiveness" and "cleansing" as mentioned in 1 John 1:9. Drawing from their backgrounds in Free Grace Theology and academic experiences, they question long-held assumptions in Christian doctrine, aiming to clarify how confession, repentance, forgiveness, and cleansing intersect with the believer’s ongoing fellowship with God.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Exploring 1 John 1:9: What Are the Two Results?

• Main Scripture Cited: 1 John 1:9 – "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
• Common Interpretation: Many respected teachers treat forgiveness and cleansing as synonymous; forgiveness applies to confessed sins, cleansing to sins unknown to us.
  • Ken Yates: "And that's what cleansing is." [02:32]
  • Bob Wilkin: "I remember years ago I was told...those are the same thing..." [01:58]

2. Personal Journeys in Understanding Forgiveness and Cleansing

• Both Bob and Ken admit they long viewed forgiveness and cleansing as the same but have since reconsidered.
  • Ken Yates: "Up until maybe a year and a half ago, I thought forgiveness and cleansing were the same thing." [03:33]
• Ken references John 13 (foot-washing) to illustrate cleansing, not forgiveness.
  • "Jesus washes the disciples’ feet... He says you are clean, but not all of you... believers... are clean, but they need periodic forgiveness. Well, periodic cleansing... See, there I slipped back into it." [03:41–04:27]

3. Attempting to Define 'Forgiveness'

• Bob: Proposes forgiveness is the restoration of fellowship after sin.
  • "I've committed a sin and I'm out of fellowship, and there is a restoration of fellowship when I am forgiven." [04:41]
• Ken: Pushes back, suggesting confession maintains fellowship, while repentance restores it.
  • "Confession is for the purpose of continuation of fellowship, and repentance is for restoration of fellowship." [04:50–05:10]

4. Confession vs. Repentance

• A Conference Anecdote: Ken shares a story involving Zane Hodges and Jim Congdon, who challenge the necessity of repentance for fellowship, arguing 1 John only mentions confession.
  • "The condition of ongoing fellowship with God is confession, not repentance." [06:28]

5. Fellowship with God: Is It Lost with Every Sin?

• Ken disputes the "light switch" view—believers are not in and out of fellowship moment by moment with every sin.
  • "A lot of people think I may well die out of fellowship with God... if I commit some sin and I'm unaware of it, I'm out of fellowship with God according to that system. Right?" [07:47–08:15]
• Bob & Ken: Agree that unconfessed, knowingly committed sin may ultimately break fellowship, but God allows some grace period.
  • "There's probably some grace period... from the time I recognize it's sin until the time I need to acknowledge it." [08:50–09:27]

6. Practical Example of Sin and Fellowship

• Bob uses an example of marital anger to explore when a believer is out of fellowship.
  • Bob: "Let's say you do something and you get mad at your wife... would that person be out of fellowship?" [10:00–10:34]
• Ken: Suggests not necessarily, especially if the desire for restoration is present, distinguishing types and degrees of anger.
  • "Being mad is not by itself sin. If you're having outbursts of wrath, you need to be confessing those..." [10:50–11:29]

7. Degrees of Anger and Further Discussion

• Ken shares personal stories of anger, emphasizing ongoing spiritual growth and the complexity of determining when fellowship is disrupted.
  • "There are degrees of anger, and maybe we should continue this in the next show." [12:13]
• Episode ends with a teaser for continued discussion on fellowship and anger in future episodes.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ken Yates: "Up until maybe a year and a half ago, I thought forgiveness and cleansing were the same thing." [03:33]
• Bob Wilkin: "I've committed a sin and I'm out of fellowship, and there is a restoration of fellowship when I am forgiven." [04:41]
• Ken Yates: "Confession is for the purpose of continuation of fellowship, and repentance is for restoration of fellowship." [04:50]
• Jim Congdon (via Ken): "Aren't you trapped now into saying that repentance is not a condition for fellowship with God?" [06:13]
• Ken Yates: "A lot of people think I may well die out of fellowship with God..." [07:47]
• Ken Yates (on anger): "I broke a car windshield. I got so mad with Sharon and I arguing, I just hit it with my fist, and the whole thing shattered..." [11:05]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:54 — Introduction of the topic: Difference between forgiveness and cleansing in 1 John 1:9
• 02:32 — Standard teaching: Forgiveness and cleansing are the same
• 03:33–04:32 — Ken’s change in perspective on forgiveness versus cleansing; illustration from John 13
• 04:41–05:10 — Attempting to define 'forgiveness'; confession vs. repentance
• 06:10–06:30 — Anecdote about repentance and confession in the context of 1 John
• 07:47–08:15 — Critique of "light switch" fellowship view
• 08:50–09:27 — Grace period in confession and maintaining fellowship
• 10:00–10:34 — Real-life scenario: marital anger and fellowship
• 11:05–11:29 — Ken’s personal story of anger
• 12:02–12:20 — Plan to explore degrees of anger and fellowship further in future episode

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Final Thoughts / Tone of the Conversation

The tone is conversational, personal, and gently probing. Both Bob and Ken are honest about evolving their views and are comfortable acknowledging gaps in their earlier understanding. They invite listeners into an ongoing exploration rather than presenting dogmatic answers, keeping "grace in focus" at the heart of the discussion.

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Summary

This episode delves into the nuanced distinction between forgiveness and cleansing in Christian theology, especially as it pertains to continued fellowship with God. Through honest reflection, scriptural analysis, and real-life examples, Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates offer listeners a compelling conversation that challenges conventional thought and encourages listeners to dig deeper into their own understanding of confession, repentance, forgiveness, and cleansing.

Transcript

[Bob Wilkin]

The following is a listener supported ministry from the Grace evangelical society.

[Announcer]

In 1 John 1:9 there's confession and 2 results come from that. One is forgiveness and the other is cleansing. What is the difference, if any, between forgiveness and cleansing? Hello, friend. We're glad you're joining us today on Grace in Focus. This is the radio broadcast and podcast ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our web site is faithalone.org there you can give to this listener supported ministry and there's lots to learn about us there. Also, don't miss our upcoming national annual conference, May 18th through the 21st. All the details are there on the website faithalone.org and now with today's question and answer discussion, here are Bob Wilken and Ken Yates.

[Bob Wilkin]

Bob, we had a question by Tom in our last session dealing with First John 1:9, and he didn't ask this in the question, but I wanted to discuss it. I was hoping we'd have time because I wanted to pick your brain on this. In First John 1:9, Tom had asked about will sin be brought up at the judgment seat of Christ based upon First John 1:9? But there's another issue in First John 1:9 that comes up pretty regularly. And he didn't ask specifically about this, but I'm going to. And in first John 1:9 I'm going to read that verse again. If we confess our sins, he's faithful and just to forgive us, forgive us our sins. And there we're talking about the sins we confess, right? Right. So we confess our sins when they become known to us. He forgives them. And then it says, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. You and I were both taught, I think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that what this verse is saying is, or at least I've been told, and these are by great Bible teachers and people that I have a lot of respect for. They say something like this, okay, what is the difference between forgiving and cleansing? Because John says here, if we confess our sins, he will forgive us of our sins, forgive us the sins we confess, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I remember years ago I was told that basically those are the same thing, that we're forgiven of the sins we confess, and then we're also forgiven of the sins that we're unaware of. So I become aware of.

[Ken Yates]

And that's what cleansing is.

[Bob Wilkin]

That's what cleansing is.

[Ken Yates]

And by the way, we both went to Dallas Seminary, different decades. I was there.

[Bob Wilkin]

Well, because you're older. Older than Me? Yeah.

[Ken Yates]

So I was there between 78 and 82 for my master's, and you were there between what, 83 and 87.

[Bob Wilkin]

Right.

[Ken Yates]

So. So we almost overlapped. In fact, I was in the doctoral program while you were in your THM program. I don't remember a single professor discussing whether these were the same thing or different things. It was just always understood they were the same. Is that the way you were?

[Bob Wilkin]

I would say so.

[Ken Yates]

Even Zane Hodges, I don't remember him ever discussing the difference between forgiveness and cleansing.

[Bob Wilkin]

And I think he's the first person that I ever remember with me, anyway, talking about this. And I definitely got the impression he saw them as basically synonymous. So the same thing, that we're forgiven and then we're forgiven of the sins we're not aware of.

[Ken Yates]

Okay. So I would tell you this. This is my confession. You ready?

[Bob Wilkin]

Okay.

[Ken Yates]

So up until maybe a year and a half ago, I thought forgiveness and cleansing were the same thing.

[Bob Wilkin]

I did too.

[Ken Yates]

In fact, I would go to John 13 in the Foot, Washington, and I would say that illustrates the forgiveness of first John 1:9. But do you know that John 13, where Jesus washes the disciples feet, does not use the word forgiveness? What word does it use?

[Bob Wilkin]

Clean, Right?

[Ken Yates]

Yeah. He says you are clean, but not all of you. Which was a double meaning. It meant Judas wasn't clean. But he also meant that Peter was clean in an overall sense, but he needed ongoing cleansing of his feet. That's the idea that believers who are in fellowship with God are clean, but they need periodic forgiveness. Well, periodic cleansing. I shouldn't say forgiveness. See, there I slipped back into it.

[Bob Wilkin]

Right.

[Ken Yates]

And so for about the last year and a half, I've been trying to figure out, first of all, what is forgiveness? And secondly, what is cleansing?

[Bob Wilkin]

Right.

[Ken Yates]

Don't think they're the same thing. So let's first discuss what is forgiveness? What?

[Bob Wilkin]

Well, forgiveness would be. Okay, I've committed a sin and I'm out of fellowship, and there is a restoration of fellowship when I am forgiven.

[Ken Yates]

Okay, so I'm questioning that too. I would say, based on the difference between repentance and confession, that confession is for the purpose of continuation of fellowship, and repentance is. Is for restoration of fellowship. You see my difference?

[Bob Wilkin]

Sure.

[Ken Yates]

Okay, so let me give you an example. We had our conference in 1990, I think it was seven or eight. And Zane Hodges was supposed to give a talk about repentance. And Zane had a massive heart attack. He gave me his paper he'd already written and I presented it. But Then I had to field questions. Jim Congdon came up and he said this. He said, your argument is that repentance is not a condition of eternal life because repentance is not found in the Gospel of John. And the purpose of the Gospel of John is evangelistic. Am I right so far? And I said, right. So because repentance is not found in John and the purpose is evangelistic, therefore it's not a condition. He said, now what's the purpose of First John? I said, fellowship with God. First John 1, 1, 4. He said, I agree. He said, how many times does repentance occur in First John? I said, I don't think it occurs at all. He said, so aren't you trapped now into saying that repentance is not a condition for fellowship with God? And I stumbled and bumbled around. And afterwards I talked to Zane Hodges about it, and Zane said he was correct. The condition of ongoing fellowship with God is confession, not repentance.

[Bob Wilkin]

So the person who has gone to the far country of sin.

[Ken Yates]

Where do you get that? Luke 15, the prodigal son.

[Bob Wilkin]

Right, right, right. And so the believer who has lifestyle of sin, right, it's become habitual.

[Ken Yates]

He's not in fellowship with his Father when he's in spiritual Las Vegas.

[Bob Wilkin]

Right, but let's get a little more technical then. So when I sin, would you say it's proper to say, as a believer, I sin in that act I am out of fellowship with God?

[Ken Yates]

No. What's accurate to say in light of First John 3, 6, 10, that act is not an act of abiding in Christ, but it's different than being out of fellowship.

[Announcer]

It's coming. It'll be here before you know it. What am I talking about? The Grace Evangelical Society's National Conference 2026, May 18th through the 21st at Camp Kopas, an absolutely beautiful campground in North Texas, right on the lake with lots of rec, great food, a great place to stay, wonderful fellowship and wonderful free grace Bible teaching information and online registration [e-mail] events first timers waive registration fees. Faithalone.org events let's say I go over.

[Ken Yates]

To this light switch and I turn it off, right? Did your kids ever, like, turn the light switch on and off, on and off? Well, a lot of people's view is believers are in and out of fellowship moment by moment. So I commit a sin, I'm out of fellowship. Now I confess the sin, I'm back in fellowship. And so a lot of people think I may well die out of fellowship. With God. Right. Because if I commit some sin and I'm unaware of it, I'm out of fellowship with God according to that system. Right?

[Bob Wilkin]

Right.

[Ken Yates]

Until I've confessed some known sin. So what I would say is the issue in confession is continuation of fellowship, and the issue of repentance is restoration of fellowship. I remember Zane Hodges said to me one time he thought a person could go years or decades in fellowship with God.

[Bob Wilkin]

Okay.

[Ken Yates]

Broken fellowship with God, not needing to repent.

[Bob Wilkin]

We're not needing to repent. Okay, but would we say, again, this is just for all of us as we're talking through this. I sin and I don't confess it.

[Ken Yates]

And I'm aware of it.

[Bob Wilkin]

Right? I'm aware of it.

[Ken Yates]

Okay, so then what happens is, if I sin and I'm aware of it, at some point, I have now let the sun go down on my sin, so to speak. Paul says, don't let the sun go down on your anger. Right. If you do well, then you're going to be out of fellowship with your spouse or whoever it is, plus you're going to be out of fellowship with God. Same thing is true with sin. If I commit a sin and I'm aware of it, there's probably some grace period. I don't know how many seconds or minutes it is from the time I recognize it's sin till the time I need to acknowledge it. And I don't think acknowledging it means I have to get on my knees and have some formal prayer. It means I am acknowledging to God I have sinned. If I don't do that, then after some short period of time, I become out of fellowship with God and now I need to repent.

[Bob Wilkin]

Well, it seems to me then that what we're saying is there's going to be an overlap in this.

[Ken Yates]

There certainly would be some area where people go, well, do I need to confess or do I need to repent? People ask me that. My answer is, unless you have intentionally rebelled against God, then you need to confess.

[Bob Wilkin]

Okay, here's an example. Okay, let's say now, of course, I've never done this, but others may have. Let's say you do something and you get mad at your wife. Now, that's never happened to me.

[Ken Yates]

You're a lying dog.

[Bob Wilkin]

Okay, but let's just say a believer.

[Ken Yates]

Does this and you haven't been mad at your wife.

[Bob Wilkin]

But what I'm saying is, since you've been here. Yeah, what I'm saying, I'm trying to think of a real life situation. Okay, so we're in a situation like that, and you're convicted of it, you say, okay, I was a dirtbag. Hey, I need to apologize for it. But then I say, no, I'm still mad at her.

[Ken Yates]

Right?

[Bob Wilkin]

That happens with a lot of people. So would that person be out of fellowship?

[Ken Yates]

I would say it really depends, because we're vessels of clay. Right? If my desire is to please the Lord, and my desire is to be back in fellowship with my spouse, my wife, but I'm at a loss on how to do that because.

[Bob Wilkin]

Or no, you're just mad.

[Ken Yates]

Well, but see, being mad is not by itself sin. If you're having outbursts of wrath, you need to be confessing those outbursts of wrath. I mean, I've had some doozies in my life. I. I broke a car windshield. I got so mad with Sharon and I arguing, I just hit it with my fist, and the whole thing shattered. I came out of an alcoholic family. So I. I've been through a lot of counseling, and I've gotten over a lot of my anger. But early on in our marriage, I never hit Sharon. I never pushed your. You know, whatever. I fortunately, praise God, I didn't do those things. But I would get to the point where I was so angry that I would hit something.

[Bob Wilkin]

Okay, so. So my question there. Let's go. Were you out of fellowship?

[Ken Yates]

I would say no. And the reason I would say no is my desire was to please the Lord, and my desire was to be in fellowship with Sharon and with the Lord. But there were times when I was at a loss of what to say or do. I would say, I'm sorry, Sharon. I'm sorry for what I did. I'm sorry I broke the windshield, or I'm sorry I did through this thing or whatever it was. But it took a lot of counseling, and I had to learn there's a difference between. There are degrees of anger, and maybe we should continue this in the next show.

[Bob Wilkin]

Sure, let's do it. I think we should, because to me, it seems like there's a million examples like this. And so when is it that we're out of fellowship and need to repent? I really think that's the issue here.

[Ken Yates]

All right, so we'll get into that, and we'll talk about degrees of anger, too, because this is something I've both experienced and learned, and it's helped me a lot.

[Bob Wilkin]

Well, I think this is important, so let's do that on a second session. And remember, keep grace and focus.

[Announcer]

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[Bob Wilkin]

The proceeding has been a listener supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society.