Podcast Summary: Grace in Focus

Episode: What Is the Difference Between Forgiveness and Cleansing?
Date: February 13, 2026
Host: Bob Wilkin (with guest Ken Yates)
Produced by: Grace Evangelical Society

Main Theme

In this episode, Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates engage in a thought-provoking discussion on the nuanced theological distinction between "forgiveness" and "cleansing" as mentioned in 1 John 1:9. Drawing from their backgrounds in Free Grace Theology and academic experiences, they question long-held assumptions in Christian doctrine, aiming to clarify how confession, repentance, forgiveness, and cleansing intersect with the believer’s ongoing fellowship with God.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Exploring 1 John 1:9: What Are the Two Results?

• Main Scripture Cited: 1 John 1:9 – "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
• Common Interpretation: Many respected teachers treat forgiveness and cleansing as synonymous; forgiveness applies to confessed sins, cleansing to sins unknown to us.
  • Ken Yates: "And that's what cleansing is." [02:32]
  • Bob Wilkin: "I remember years ago I was told...those are the same thing..." [01:58]

2. Personal Journeys in Understanding Forgiveness and Cleansing

• Both Bob and Ken admit they long viewed forgiveness and cleansing as the same but have since reconsidered.
  • Ken Yates: "Up until maybe a year and a half ago, I thought forgiveness and cleansing were the same thing." [03:33]
• Ken references John 13 (foot-washing) to illustrate cleansing, not forgiveness.
  • "Jesus washes the disciples’ feet... He says you are clean, but not all of you... believers... are clean, but they need periodic forgiveness. Well, periodic cleansing... See, there I slipped back into it." [03:41–04:27]

3. Attempting to Define 'Forgiveness'

• Bob: Proposes forgiveness is the restoration of fellowship after sin.
  • "I've committed a sin and I'm out of fellowship, and there is a restoration of fellowship when I am forgiven." [04:41]
• Ken: Pushes back, suggesting confession maintains fellowship, while repentance restores it.
  • "Confession is for the purpose of continuation of fellowship, and repentance is for restoration of fellowship." [04:50–05:10]

4. Confession vs. Repentance

• A Conference Anecdote: Ken shares a story involving Zane Hodges and Jim Congdon, who challenge the necessity of repentance for fellowship, arguing 1 John only mentions confession.
  • "The condition of ongoing fellowship with God is confession, not repentance." [06:28]

5. Fellowship with God: Is It Lost with Every Sin?

• Ken disputes the "light switch" view—believers are not in and out of fellowship moment by moment with every sin.
  • "A lot of people think I may well die out of fellowship with God... if I commit some sin and I'm unaware of it, I'm out of fellowship with God according to that system. Right?" [07:47–08:15]
• Bob & Ken: Agree that unconfessed, knowingly committed sin may ultimately break fellowship, but God allows some grace period.
  • "There's probably some grace period... from the time I recognize it's sin until the time I need to acknowledge it." [08:50–09:27]

6. Practical Example of Sin and Fellowship

• Bob uses an example of marital anger to explore when a believer is out of fellowship.
  • Bob: "Let's say you do something and you get mad at your wife... would that person be out of fellowship?" [10:00–10:34]
• Ken: Suggests not necessarily, especially if the desire for restoration is present, distinguishing types and degrees of anger.
  • "Being mad is not by itself sin. If you're having outbursts of wrath, you need to be confessing those..." [10:50–11:29]

7. Degrees of Anger and Further Discussion

• Ken shares personal stories of anger, emphasizing ongoing spiritual growth and the complexity of determining when fellowship is disrupted.
  • "There are degrees of anger, and maybe we should continue this in the next show." [12:13]
• Episode ends with a teaser for continued discussion on fellowship and anger in future episodes.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ken Yates: "Up until maybe a year and a half ago, I thought forgiveness and cleansing were the same thing." [03:33]
• Bob Wilkin: "I've committed a sin and I'm out of fellowship, and there is a restoration of fellowship when I am forgiven." [04:41]
• Ken Yates: "Confession is for the purpose of continuation of fellowship, and repentance is for restoration of fellowship." [04:50]
• Jim Congdon (via Ken): "Aren't you trapped now into saying that repentance is not a condition for fellowship with God?" [06:13]
• Ken Yates: "A lot of people think I may well die out of fellowship with God..." [07:47]
• Ken Yates (on anger): "I broke a car windshield. I got so mad with Sharon and I arguing, I just hit it with my fist, and the whole thing shattered..." [11:05]

Important Timestamps

• 00:54 — Introduction of the topic: Difference between forgiveness and cleansing in 1 John 1:9
• 02:32 — Standard teaching: Forgiveness and cleansing are the same
• 03:33–04:32 — Ken’s change in perspective on forgiveness versus cleansing; illustration from John 13
• 04:41–05:10 — Attempting to define 'forgiveness'; confession vs. repentance
• 06:10–06:30 — Anecdote about repentance and confession in the context of 1 John
• 07:47–08:15 — Critique of "light switch" fellowship view
• 08:50–09:27 — Grace period in confession and maintaining fellowship
• 10:00–10:34 — Real-life scenario: marital anger and fellowship
• 11:05–11:29 — Ken’s personal story of anger
• 12:02–12:20 — Plan to explore degrees of anger and fellowship further in future episode

Final Thoughts / Tone of the Conversation

The tone is conversational, personal, and gently probing. Both Bob and Ken are honest about evolving their views and are comfortable acknowledging gaps in their earlier understanding. They invite listeners into an ongoing exploration rather than presenting dogmatic answers, keeping "grace in focus" at the heart of the discussion.

Summary

This episode delves into the nuanced distinction between forgiveness and cleansing in Christian theology, especially as it pertains to continued fellowship with God. Through honest reflection, scriptural analysis, and real-life examples, Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates offer listeners a compelling conversation that challenges conventional thought and encourages listeners to dig deeper into their own understanding of confession, repentance, forgiveness, and cleansing.