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GRC & Me
LogicGate Founders Reflect a Decade of Modernization
00:34:49
To celebrate a decade of LogicGate, co-founders Matt Kunkel, Jon Siegler, and Dan Campbell take listeners back to where it all began. They reflect on LogicGate’s origins and evolution, sharing early challenges, key milestones—including the story be...
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
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B
Welcome everyone to this very special episode of GRC And Me. I'm Megan Manifold and today we're joined by not one, not two, but all three founders of Logic8. We're here today to celebrate Logic8's 10 year anniversary. Welcome to the show, Matt, John and Dan. Now before we get started, we're going to play a little bit of a fun activity and talk about superlatives for y'.
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A
All.
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B
So let's start with who's most likely to take a big bet.
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C
That would definitely be Matt, hands down.
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A
Matt.
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B
Matt. Okay, I hear you on that. So maybe not go to the casinos with Matt is what I'm hearing. Or maybe do because you're probably going to win big.
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C
I've been there. I've been there and it's. Yeah.
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B
Excellent, Excellent. All right, well, this one I feel might be me. I don't know. But who's likely to over caffeinate of the three of you?
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A
That sounds like a Dan to me.
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B
That's a Dan one. Are you a coffee junkie, Dan?
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D
I am a coffee junkie. I am a zero sugar soda junkie. Mix and match. Mix them together sometimes, depending on if.
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B
The sun is up or down, kind of determines that one. All right. All right. Now this one's interesting and I feel like maybe there's a backstory to it. Who's most likely to walk into the office with a power drill?
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A
Gamble your thoughts.
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D
That would be our resident handyman, Mr. Siegler.
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B
Really?
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A
I. I agree, I agree.
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B
Excellent. I'm sure there's some.
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C
I have memories hanging. I think our first office didn't have like window treatments and we're getting blinded by the sun, so remember hanging blinds to save our eyes?
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A
He actually did walk into the office with a power drill to fix that.
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B
That's amazing. So not just a builder of software, but a builder of home renovation and decor, it seems. Well, that's fabulous. And I think a great way to start our special episode today talking about our 10 year anniversary. So thinking back a little bit about The Origin of Logic 8 here, I've heard that startups, three Personas. A hustler, a hipster and a hacker. Do you agree? And if so, how did you work together with those different personalities and skill sets to being where you are today? Matt, would you like to start off?
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A
Yeah, I'll jump in and take this one. Well, I think any startup is crazy to build a company without two other co founders. And the hipster, the hacker and the hustler are kind of the three Personas that I think any software company needs when starting. You need a hacker, someone that is amazing at writing code and being a full stack engineer and doing, doing it all from an engineering perspective. And that, that was. Dan, you need a hipster and that's kind of the jack of all trades person, someone that can figure things out. Someone that could build a website and start QuickBooks and do legal negotiations and onboard customers and do marketing and, and resident HR expert in the early days. And then you need, you need a hustler. And the hustler is the person that goes out and is kind of the front man and can convince not just customers in the early days, but employees, which is probably the hardest thing to do to join the journey and then certainly investors to, to invest in the company and the mission that we were on. So hipster hacker and a hustler, that's the best way to start a company. And we got all three of them here still over 10 years.
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B
Yeah, I was going to say started with the same three and still here 10 years later. That's fabulous. I love that. And I think that actually leads a little bit into our next question here. I'm going to turn to you Dan. Can you tell me the story of how Logicate got its name?
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D
I can. So our jack of all trades, Mr. Bringadrill to the office is the originator, I think of Logic Gate. But before we were Logic Gate there were a couple months of company history that we were actually Capria Solutions. And then we decided that Capria Solutions was not a catchy and exciting name for a company. But prior to renaming the company we decided we wanted a cool name for the product. So initially the product itself was log, the company was Capria Solutions. And then when we started techstars we became a corporation. And during our incorporation process we decided to just change the name of the company to Logic Gate instead of Capria Solutions because it was better. And Logic Gate is a part of a circuit that can poses part of discrete logic. I'm not an electrical engineer so I can't really tell you any more than that. But John did do engineering in college so he maybe knew a little bit more about it. But I'm pretty sure that he stumbled upon it by googling something like cool sciencey sounding words for a company or something. But it's relevant to, to our software. If you kind of, if you kind of think about it, we're routing different pieces of work around based on logic, which is kind of kind of the same, same concept in some ways. Our logo Also, I think ties into this and is kind of an interesting story also, because the logo today, if you can picture it, is kind of a C shape with some lines going through it, which was developed when we work Capria Solutions, and the C is for Capria, actually. But we thought that the logo was cool and we thought when we were Logic Gate, it still was kind of fitting. So we've kept it and it's still great.
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B
John, anything to add to that? Did he get the mechanical electrical engineering correct there?
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C
Yeah, although I'm pretty sure I got a C in my electrical engineering class, the one that I had to take, so I'm not. I'm not either. But yeah, I remember we created like a spreadsheet with. Yeah, it was like. It was a lot of, like, sciencey space theme names, and we all kind of like, stared at that list for a while, and I think Logic8 stuck out just because of our. The, like, the no code aspect, the workflow aspect of our platform with Logic included.
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A
So.
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B
Yeah, yeah, it makes perfect sense. But follow up on that, then. What's the deal with the goat? Why was the goat chosen as our mascot? Dan, can you elaborate on that?
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D
The goat happened kind of organically, I think, in the early days when we were building the MVP of the app and we were creating dummy data for it for a bunch of users, just as kind of a joke. I put Logic Goat as the company that they were working for, a joke that I was kind of making with myself at that point, as I was the only developer that was working on the app. And I think when we started hiring more engineers, thought it was funny together, made jokes about it. And then ultimately we created an ASCII art, so created with symbols on the keyboard that you're creating. Loading banner of a goat that says Logic Gate with kind of a. It looks almost like a band tea kind of font with, like some blood dripping down it. When the. When the app starts up, this kind of goat with this. This metal Logic Gate name prints before the app starts now, and that still exists today.
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B
Interesting.
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A
I'm a base company who obviously the goat or the greatest of all time is Michael Jordan.
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C
So.
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A
And we, I think, believe that we are the Goats of grc. We're the greatest of all time within the GRC space.
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B
I mean, I can't. I can't argue with that. I got a Lego go at agility, so clearly we are. We are onto something there for sure.
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D
I also think that since 2015, the goat as an icon has become a little bit more Prolific in popular culture. And I do think that it is because of us.
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B
I certainly think we all learned a lot about Go Fun facts @RCKO, that is for sure. Well, awesome. Well, thank you for that little bit of walk down the origin story. But thinking about those early days, I know things kind of change as companies grow. So John, I want to start with you here. What's one habit or mindset that you had to actually unlearn as the company scaled?
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C
Yeah, so we came from the consulting background and we had that kind of in our DNA from the day we started the company and going through. So Dan mentioned this. We went through the Techstars program in 2016 in Chicago and there you're with nine other companies. Everybody's in the middle of starting their business and looking for product market fit. And we were constantly reminded through that program, you guys have to stop thinking like consultants or acting like consultants. And the way that comes through is as a consultant, you probably give very detailed verbose explanations on things and everything gets solved with the slide deck. Is it deliverable? And as well as shifting our mindset from being purely project based to recurring revenue base, that was, I would say, something we had to unlearn that was kind of just in our DNA from our days working together in the consulting world. I'd say like coming out of that program, we definitely shifted our mindset going forward. But that was one that's one that sticks out from the early days.
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B
Interesting, interesting. Well, then I'll ask you, Matt, looking back, what was one of the biggest surprises then and how Logic8 has grown or changed from those early days? Is it what you always envisioned or something totally different?
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A
Yeah, I mean, there's so many surprises and twists and turns with the journey. I think, you know, at the highest level, a lot of what the real, real, real origin stories are of the business before we even started was we were building a reg change management application for JP Morgan Chase. And we said, hey, there's, there's a better way. And you know, we're building reg change management applications for many, many, many of our customers today. Right. So in that vein, it's very much the same. And what we are doing, from what we thought about it more than 10 years ago, but I also think that, you know, the three of us have just evolved and changed so much as leaders throughout the last 10 years and you know, to being three truly just individual contributors to going up through the ranks and hiring our first one or two people on our team and then hiring team leads and then inspiring them and bringing on customers and then how the product has changed over time, how the, the infrastructure that we use has changed. You know, we actually, we use a graph database in Neo4j. In the very, very, very early days though, like the very early days we actually started with a relational database, knew that wasn't going to work, and moved to graph. Right. So huge pivot and huge change for us. So while I think the origins of the company are still where they are pre even founding it, a lot has changed along the journey and I think that's most companies as they grow up and the journey that they go on.
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B
Very true, very true. Well, I want to pivot a little bit then and let's talk about the industry because certainly, as you just mentioned, Matt, it has. The industry has evolved, but in some way the challenges have really stayed the same. So thinking about, you know, GRC and risk management in general, John, I'm going to ask you, what's one trend that you predicted accurately or maybe something that caught you completely off guard in some of these in the last decade or so?
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C
Yeah, I think we were pretty far ahead with the no code aspect and GRC practitioners wanting to kind of be in the driver's seat of the way they ran their programs, be able to configure their own workflows and their own logic and their own fields. And almost before no code was like a buzzwordy things thing, our platform really was no code. And then other our competitors started to try to do some of this stuff. I think we still do that aspect better than anyone else on the market and we're still pretty far ahead there, but we've seen it start to get incorporated in other platforms, other products. We've taken the more like visual builder aspect, workflow logic, being able to visualize that into their products. The one that I'd say caught me off guard was just the pace of adoption of AI, particularly in the GRC space, like generative AI quickly went from being something that was a novelty to something our customers were talking about. But they're like, oh, we could never use that for GRC processes. We're never going to share our data with AI models to where now the transition that's happened in just the last 12 months in terms of the attitudes and mindsets of our customers of where they are and their comfortability using AI has shifted immensely. I mean, I remember in last year when we had our agility conference, there were a lot of people fearful of using AI generally in the world and let alone to do it, to share some of their risk and compliance data and help with some of those processes. And I think just for a year from that, at our last agility we had. The mindset had completely shifted and now I visited customers recently who were like, hey, what's your agentic AI strategy? Because we're getting asked about that from our leadership and from our board and how do we get more efficient with our processes. So I think just that the speed of change, of adoption of AI, specifically in GRC did catch, I think all of us off guard.
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B
Yeah. And that's actually interesting because I'm going to flip that a little bit. I think something where you all were predicted very accurately and ahead of the game was just before I started actually was the AI governance solution. And I think you all coming out with that really ahead of the game and really establishing that there are companies that are still trying to catch up with that. And so I think it really established logic 8 in general now in this past year of really being able to support that AI functionality because clearly we established the governance first. So yeah, lots of, lots of changes there as well. So great point. So I want to pivot just a smidge on this then. So we talked a little about surprises or things that you did correctly. I want to talk about controversial. So, Dan, I'm going to start with you on this one. What's a product decision that might have been a little bit controversial or a little bit out there at the time, but turned out to be awesome and game changing?
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D
Yes, I think that, I think one of the things early on we knew that flexibility was going to be kind of a driver of Logic 8 as a differentiator against our competitors. We knew that flexibility is one thing that we really wanted to make a key strength. But I think there were different visions about the degree to the flexibility that we would create. I remember in some early iterations of MVPs, discussions about how we wanted to go forward with the product. We talked about maybe you'd have business units as static entities that could be defined in the application. You'd have regulations as their own entity type that would have their own unique properties. We ultimately didn't do either of those things. There's really just a generic type of entity that can be anything and you can define it in any way that you want. You can map it to any other entity in the application. I remember early on there is, there is a little bit of contention about whether or not you would be able to link workflows across different applications or whether you could only link workflows within the same application. And we ultimately decided complete flexibility across applications doesn't matter, link them up. And that's kind of the philosophy that we went forward with, with everything. And you know, now that we've gotten to the point where the product is stable and is powerful on its own, we're seeing value in for specific solutions, specific industry verticals, to do some more specific things, you know, features that are relevant for one specific use case. But it's a lot easier to go that direction after you've built this incredibly flexible platform from the beginning. And I think if we had wanted to go the other direction where we built more specific vertical solutions and features first, it would be difficult for us at this point to have the flexibility that we needed to. So I think that was one of the early decisions that has really served us. Even though in the early days it might have been easier to get some initial customers if we'd gone building very industry specific features, but it would have kind of pigeonholed us.
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A
Yeah, I totally agree with that. I mean, Dan, you kind of hit the nail on the head. Is where we said is from our days in consulting and what we saw platform first approach, the vision is holistic GRC and being able to map all of the different aspects of the data within your collective programs together and use that data in many different use cases and then surface that data from a reporting perspective. And it's just so infinitely easier to architect a solution if you take a platform architect a solution in that manner if you take a platform first approach as opposed to taking a point solution first approach and then trying to architect the next application, the next application, and the next application on top of it.
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B
It's really interesting to hear you talk about that part of my role. I talk with a lot of analysts and that's one of the things they say about it is very intentionally designed for that scalability. And it's interesting to hear how that really did come from day one. Right. And how you started one path and pivoted, knowing that that was really the way to go. And I think our customers are definitely better off for it.
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C
So.
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B
Awesome. Well, let's continue down the path here. I want to talk a little bit about company culture and how our company has grown. So, Matt, this one's for you. As Logic 8's grown, both financially and an employee count, do you think it's impossible? Not impossible. Excuse me. Do you think it's possible to maintain the current culture that we have here, the great vibes that you all have cultivated?
- [18:57]
A
Yeah. Great question. Well, first I would start by saying I think John, Dan and I believe this to our core is that culture is a huge strategic differentiator and culture is massively important. And culture is driven from the actions of our day to day employees. And we want those actions grounded in the values that we have. And I think we are very passionate about the values that we have created here at Logic8 and people living those values. I also think culture is dynamic. You know, culture changes over time. The, the culture that we had when we were the three of us is very different than the culture of the company when we were a million in ARR or 2 million in ARR is very different than the culture of the company when we were only 100 employees and is going to change over time. And I think that's not unique to Logic Gate, that's any company. It's an evolution. And as your company evolves on the journey, your culture is going to evolve on the journey for where you are on those different paths and those different steps. So I don't think of it more of can you maintain the current culture. I think of it is how is the culture of the organization going to evolve to support the next phase of growth and innovation and customers that we seek to have here at Logic.
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B
And the culture is very dynamic as it grows, very organic, aligned with sort of the needs of the, of the company at the time. So great. That's wonderful. Now I, John and Matt, you and I get to work together a lot on some really exciting projects. Dan, you and I don't actually get to work together all that often. So I'm curious On this, after 10 years and all the stuff that you've done here, what still excites you about coming to work?
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D
Yeah, I think, you know, John kind of mentioned this before, but our roles have kind of changed a lot as we've, as we worked here. You know, I'm not doing the same job that I was doing when it was just the three of us. I'm not spending 100% of my time just cranking out code anymore. And I think what excites me the most now is, you know, the people that I'm working with. Unfortunately not you as often as it should be, but we should more. Everyone on the engineering team is a really great cultural add to the company. There's people that have been here for many years at this point that started when they were very early in their career and they're leaders at this company now. And that is really, that's something that I'M proud of with the culture and the team that we built, seeing those people who have really grown professionally and are really thriving at Logic 8 today. So I, I think it's, it's definitely the people at this point.
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B
Yeah, I agree. And actually I'm going to share a little internal secret for folks watching. We have a channel in our slack called Celebrations and that's one of my favorite channels is seeing those things, birthdays, anniversaries, all of the shout outs and things like that. So for sure, Dan, that's definitely one of the things that excites me too about coming to work.
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A
So.
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B
Awesome. Well, as we look towards the future, John, I'm going to ask you this one. What do you see as one of the most disruptive trends that's going to shape the future of GRC over the next, let's say three to five years?
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C
Thank you for the layup question.
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B
Absolutely. That's my favorite.
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C
That is obviously I have to say AI because it's so obvious. I think that it will probably come in different waves though. I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of just manual processes that can be automated through AI that are done in grc. There's a lot of manual form input that's done and how can we help our customers accelerate some of the key entry that they're doing. But I also think it's really important to unlock things that maybe our customers or people in a GRC role weren't even thinking about. And I think that's where it's going to be the most powerful to say, hey, we spotted something over here that might be of interest to you and kind of bubble that up to the surface to where they might not have known that before. I think that's kind of what the next evolution is. And to do that you actually need access to a lot of information. And I think that's kind of where we'll see GRC platforms headed is getting more and more context about the organization, about their GRC programs, about assets and threats and vulnerabilities that exist so that we can create AI models on top of that, which it can then inform the next action that somebody should take in their role. So that's where we see things going in the next three to five years and probably sooner to be honest.
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B
Yeah, really, maybe next three to five months at summary. But it's really about, people always say you don't know what you don't know, but really we're starting to learn what we don't know. And that's really the value of AI. There's fabulous. Well, as we wrap up, I have one more question I'm going to ask actually to the three of you and we'll start with you, Matt. If you could choose one word or phrase to define Logic 8's first 10 years and then a different one for the next 10 years, what would they be and why?
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A
Great question. I think for the first 10 years I would use the word resilient. Company building is hard and most companies don't get it. Out of what I would call the first phase of company building, like 100, let's call it 100 million in ARR. There was a lot of challenges in the early years and a lot of twists and a lot of turns and a lot of things that the three of us had to be ridiculously resilient through and overcome and hear a lot of no's before. We got a lot of yeses, but we got out of that. Right. And we are, we have built a very scaled business now that I think in the next 10 years has the, the potential to be the market leading GRC platform. If we stay hungry and humble, and I think those are the words for the next 10 years. How are we staying hungry and how are we staying humble? Right. Continue to have that kind of startup mentality and that hustle mentality and that's the hungry behind it. And I think if we do that we're, it's kind of like what Jeff Bezos said. It's always day one. We always want to stay hungry and humble here at Logic Gate. If we do that, we're going to build a really big company that changes the lives of a lot of folks in the regulatory risk and compliance community.
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B
Yeah, that's awesome. Absolutely. John, two words or I guess two phrases if you will, before and after.
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C
Oh, phrases. Oh yeah, words though. First one, you can do words.
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B
That's fine.
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C
First one I think I might get bonus points from a marketing standpoint is agility.
- [26:01]
B
Oh, there it is. I'll take it.
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C
Yep, agility. Some of that speaks to, you know, as we're, as we're starting out, just being light on our toes, being able to adapt. Our platform is agile and flexible. So I think that's the best describes our first 10 years. I think the next 10 years is for us as a business is all about the enterprise. So I would say that enterprise scale would be the next one. As we continue to add bigger and bigger customers and take a bigger chunk of that market. That'll be a Big part of our story going forward.
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B
Nice, nice. All right, Dan, what are your thoughts on this one?
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D
John stole my second one just now. I'll try to think of a new one while I say the first one, but I think for the first 10 years, I think, you know, one of our company values is own it. And I think that that for me is one of the ones that I, while they are all important, I think rings very true for the mindset that made us successful the first 10 years. Not just for all of us, but I think that we really tried to empower everyone to solve their own problems. When we were just starting out, we had very few employees. We wanted to give everyone the bandwidth to solve their own problems and help them whatever way we could. But everyone was figuring things out on their own. And I think that very entrepreneurial mindset was something that was pretty contagious and was something that was really helpful in driving the growth that we had for the first 10 years. And scale is what I wanted to use for the next 10. As we're growing, moving up the enterprise, really focusing more on large use cases and bigger complex problems.
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B
Well, thank you all so much. So we actually have a little bit of a surprise for our wrap up here. We asked each of you to provide a surprise question that the other two does not know that they now have to answer live without prep. So this first question comes from Matt for John and Dan. And we want to know what is your best logic moment or I'm going to throw down best logic 8 party that you have that we've had.
- [28:20]
D
I'm going to go first so John doesn't steal mine because I feel like there's a pretty clear answer for this one. But when we moved in, I think it was the beginning of 2019 into our first real legit office. I remember the day that we moved in, seeing kind of the scale because we, we got an office that was much bigger than the company was at that point, with the intention of growing into it throughout the course of the next several quarters as we were hiring a lot, you know, everyone had their own desk, standing desks. We had, you know, the logo on the wall when we walked in, which was something that we'd never had before in any of our other offices. And it just felt like we were at that point, you know, a real company in a way that we hadn't been before. And we had a kickoff party shortly after moving into it that we invited a bunch of our investors, customers that were in the Chicago area, employees, friends and families and we stayed in that office till the wee, wee hours of the morning and everyone had a blast. There was live music.
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A
Wow. Dan may or may not have been singing some of the live music.
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B
Wow.
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D
Yeah, that was definitely, that was, that was definitely one of, one of the, one of the highs early on.
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B
I can imagine. Can you got something else for that, John, or is that going to be yours too? And he jumped in.
- [29:43]
C
That was the best. That was the best party for sure. I think a big moment for us was demo day coming out of techstars. That was a lot of work and prep to get there. Matt did a great job on stage. I forget, was it like a 6 minute, 6 minute pitch or something?
- [30:04]
D
John did a great job clicking through the slides.
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A
Yeah.
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C
Clicker in the background. But coming out of that, we also got a lot of, like, excitement from. And Matt did a lot of prep work to get people hyped beforehand, but a lot of, A lot of interest from investors in Chicago, many of which were part of our initial, initial round that we raised. So that felt like a good, like good validation on, on the path forward for our company.
- [30:32]
B
Yeah, I bet six minutes. I don't know that we could explain logic eight in six minutes today. That's for sure. As much as it's grown. So wonderful. All right, so that wasn't as scary, hopefully as it could have been. So let's move on to John's question. So, Matt and Dan, if our start. Oh, your. Sorry, sorry. If your startup journey were a cocktail, what are you mixing into it?
- [30:57]
C
Oh, gave you a tough one.
- [31:04]
A
I'm gonna be a spicy margarita and I'm gonna say it's because, you know, we're, we're. I think a good. We want to do the right thing for our, our employees and the right thing for our customers. I'm going to call that nice. But I think we're also fierce, fierce competitors at the end of the day and we want to win in the market, so we've got that spice to us as well.
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B
Okay. All right. That's a good one, Dan, thoughts?
- [31:43]
A
By the way, I love an old fashioned though. So I was really leaning towards old fashioned, but I couldn't figure out how I, you know, put the bourbon in the orange.
- [31:51]
B
You didn't want to call yourselves old fashioned in the way of there, so. Okay, that's fair.
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D
I guess I would have to go with a, like maybe a vodka sugar free Red Bull.
- [32:07]
B
Okay.
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A
A couple of those.
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D
Write some code.
- [32:12]
B
That's. That was the driving factor the first 10 years was that's the old Red.
- [32:16]
A
Red Bull and Hot Pocket. That's all that was fueled on in the early days. Give them a couple Hot Pockets, some Red Bulls, we'll see them in 24 hours. And you know, whatever needed to be done was done.
- [32:28]
B
That's how the tech industry was built. Right? Amazing. Awesome. All right, so the last question then comes from Dan and this is for you, John and Mat. Time travel back to day one of the company and whisper one sentence into your co founder's ears. What would that be?
- [32:47]
A
Wow, what a great question.
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D
I phrased it, I phrased it that way very intentionally.
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C
By whispering it, you have to whisper telling the other. Are we only. Am I telling just one of you?
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D
I had envisioned it as you whisper something into each of our ears probably, but you can interpret it your own way.
- [33:09]
A
I probably would whisper something in Dan's ear around some architectural thing that we know now that we didn't know five years ago so that we could short circuit a bunch of pain and suffering that had to go on. Of which what that would be I'm not sure right now. I'm sure I could think of it once you get a tram traveling device that I can use it for and then.
- [33:44]
C
I got, I got one.
- [33:46]
A
Go ahead.
- [33:46]
C
I would, I would whisper something like play the long game because it, it like you don't have to make decision like making decisions for like three year time horizon instead of always making decision. Like if you know you're gonna like making decisions for the next six months or 12 months which maybe like might lead to non ideal things happening. I'm not even talking about a specific thing, but that would be, that would be my whisper.
- [34:13]
A
Yeah. I think the last thing that I would say is, and I'd whisper it to both of them is just say it's all gonna work out.
- [34:22]
B
Very true. And I cannot think of any better words to end the episode on than it's all gonna work out. So cheers to the and thank you all for watching today. Thank you, John, Matt and Dan for joining us. Thank you everyone for watching. If you have a question for Matt, John or Dan, feel free to ask it in the comments. We'll see you next time on grc.