£200 MILLION to MAXIMUM SECURITY PRISON - THE INSANE STORY OF RIORDAN MAYNARD

Summary

Great Company with Jamie Laing
Episode: £200 MILLION to MAXIMUM SECURITY PRISON - THE INSANE STORY OF RIORDAN MAYNARD
Release Date: April 22, 2025
Host: Jamie Laing
Guest: Riordan Maynard

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of Great Company with Jamie Laing, host Jamie welcomes Riordan Maynard, a charismatic businessman whose journey from a thriving entrepreneur to a maximum-security prison inmate is nothing short of extraordinary. This episode delves deep into Riordan's life, exploring his meteoric rise in the business world, the catastrophic mistakes that led to his downfall, and his profound transformation during incarceration.

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Background of Riordan Maynard

[02:33 - 03:37]

Jamie introduces Riordan Maynard, whom he initially knew little about. Despite initial skepticism, Jamie describes Riordan as "charismatic and so interesting" (03:37), setting the stage for a compelling conversation. Riordan shares his upbringing in Lingfield, Surrey, highlighting a "lovely upbringing" with a "successful business-minded father" (10:00). Leaving school at 16, Riordan pursued his passion for sales, starting in property and swiftly moving into the mobile phone industry.

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Business Success and Downfall

[10:34 - 20:22]

Riordan recounts his early ventures in property and mobile phones, emphasizing his innate talent for sales and deal-making. By leveraging strategic partnerships, he co-founded Touch Base, a company that scaled rapidly, eventually reaching a turnover of approximately $200 million (19:44). However, the global financial crisis of 2008-2009 proved devastating. Riordan admits to overextending his business operations, describing his life as “relentless” and “stratospheric” before everything "went tits up" (21:51).

Notable Quote:
"I thought I was some sort of business God. It's like... here comes Midas." — Riordan Maynard [19:54]

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Legal Troubles and Trial

[20:22 - 30:12]

The financial collapse led to significant tax liabilities with the IRS. Riordan explains that to manage cash flow, he moved money around to keep the business operational, a practice that led to legal scrutiny. Despite continuous communication and attempts to settle with the IRS, Riordan was arrested and faced charges including conspiracy to defraud the United States and fraud related to healthcare and pension plans.

During the trial, Riordan felt the prosecution was overwhelming, leading him to believe he was "the worst person in the world" (30:09). Despite pleading not guilty, citing a lack of intent to defraud (“mens rea”), he was found guilty and sentenced to six and a half years in a maximum-security prison (30:07).

Notable Quote:
"The Department of Justice in America is an extraordinarily powerful and manipulative organization. Once they decide they want you, you're fucked." — Riordan Maynard [30:02]

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Prison Experience

[30:12 - 57:47]

Riordan describes his harrowing entry into prison, detailing the initial shock of being placed in a high-security facility far from his family. He navigates the brutal environment, where constant violence and the necessity to align with gangs create a perpetual state of anxiety. Despite his natural inclination towards positivity, the relentless stress took a toll on his mental health.

He shares vivid memories, such as witnessing a cellmate being beaten to death, which left a profound impact on him. However, Riordan managed to avoid gang affiliations by aligning with "the others"—inmates who weren’t part of any dominant groups—allowing him to maintain a semblance of personal integrity in an otherwise chaotic environment.

Notable Quote:
"Prison really is a test of the mind, really, I think, because it's just... it's like a microcosm of life." — Riordan Maynard [07:55]

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Mental Resilience and Personal Growth

[57:13 - 74:15]

Facing despair and hopelessness, Riordan turned to extensive self-improvement strategies. He read over 400 books, including Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, which profoundly influenced his outlook. Riordan developed a mental framework emphasizing the power of perception, believing that "the way in which you interpret events determines how much you get from them" (66:51).

Through disciplined mental training, Riordan transformed his prison experience into an opportunity for growth. He emphasizes the importance of having a "compelling future" and creating structured personal goals, likening personal development to business planning. This newfound resilience not only helped him survive prison but also laid the foundation for his mission to help others achieve mental fortitude.

Notable Quote:
"Whatever you experience, the way you interpret it determines how you experience it." — Riordan Maynard [66:52]

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Insights and Conclusions

[74:06 - 79:05]

Riordan shares his vision for helping others through a program he developed called Mind Fort, aimed at teaching individuals to control their mindset and achieve personal growth, much like businesses do with their operations. He highlights the importance of having strong support systems and the ability to adapt one's perception to overcome adversity.

Jamie and Riordan discuss the parallels between prison and real-life challenges, emphasizing that mental resilience is crucial for navigating both. Riordan's story serves as a powerful testament to the human spirit's capacity for transformation, even in the bleakest circumstances.

Notable Quote:
"Regardless of your situation, the way you interpret it will determine how much you get from it." — Riordan Maynard [78:59]

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Final Thoughts

Riordan Maynard's journey from a soaring business owner to a man sentenced to maximum security prison, and his subsequent transformation, offers invaluable lessons on resilience, accountability, and the power of mindset. This episode of Great Company not only recounts an incredible personal story but also provides listeners with actionable insights into overcoming adversity through mental strength and positive perception.

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Selected Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Riordan Maynard [03:37]: "It was one of these amazing calls where... he was completely fascinating in lots of ways."
• Riordan Maynard [19:54]: "I thought I was some sort of business God. It's like... here comes Midas."
• Riordan Maynard [30:02]: "The Department of Justice in America is an extraordinarily powerful and manipulative organization. Once they decide they want you, you're fucked."
• Riordan Maynard [07:55]: "Prison really is a test of the mind, really, I think, because it's just... it's like a microcosm of life."
• Riordan Maynard [66:52]: "Whatever you experience, the way you interpret it determines how you experience it."
• Riordan Maynard [78:59]: "Regardless of your situation, the way you interpret it will determine how much you get from it."

---

This detailed summary captures the essence of Riordan Maynard's story as presented in the episode, highlighting key moments and insights while providing a coherent narrative flow for those who haven't listened to the podcast.

Transcript

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[Jamie Laing]

Hello everyone, my name is Jamie Laing and this is Great Company. Hey guys, welcome back to Great Company. Welcome back. Welcome back. That's producer, Jemima, right there. I'm Jamie, the host. Hey, today's episode is a little bit of a different one.

[Jemima]

Yeah, thanks for clicking on. Because chances are you have no idea who this person is that Jamie's talking to.

[Jamie Laing]

And trust us on this one, it's going to be a really interesting story about a man who went to prison.

[Jemima]

Yeah. Okay, so a few months ago, Jamie has a call, and he comes out and he's like, we need to get this guy on. And I'm like, okay, fine, Send me his details. I Google the name Reardon Maynard. I've been pronouncing it Riordan for four months. And I'm like, who the hell is this guy? Like, I can't find anything online about him. And Jamie's like, no, no, no, trust me, trust me. Anyway, Reardon comes in. His name is pronounced Reardon, not Reordon. And, oh, my God, it's just, like, so charismatic and so interesting. So interesting.

[Jamie Laing]

It was one of these amazing calls where a friend of mine asked me to have a call with this person called Reardon, and he said he just wants to chat to you about this space, this podcasting space, this social media space. And I said, yeah, cool. Of course I can do that. Can you give me a little background on him? He said, well, yeah, I can give you a little background of him. He was a business owner, and for the past six and a bit years, he's been in prison in the United States. So I went, okay, what for? He said, well, he went in prison because he made some big mistakes in his business and moved money around, and the IRS investigated, and then he was sent to court, and they said he was guilty. And he went. So I said, fine, well, I'll have a conversation with him. And to be honest, if I'm really honest, and Reardon won't mind this, I was apprehensive to talk to him, but I challenged him, and he was completely fascinating in lots of ways. Now, I do want to caveat that with. Is that in today's episode, you know, we do speak a lot about his experience as a business owner. He talks very openly about the mistakes he made. He went to prison. He served time. He did it. I think he's incredibly sorry for lots of things he's done. And I don't think there's any excuses for what he did and how he went about it. But what I found more fascinating is when someone who lived a pretty one would argue a sort of normal, ish life loses everything, and then he has to pay pretty much one of the ultimate prices, which is losing his freedom and going into prison.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And the fascinating thing for me about the story is when your liberty is taken away from you and you sit in your cell and you suddenly have the realization that you are going to be in prison for the next six and a half years of your life. How on earth do you mentally get through that? And it nearly broke him.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And what is incredible about Reardon is that he read over 400 books, he worked on mental resilience, and he's come out a changed man in lots of different ways. And today's episode explores everything about that. It's fascinating.

[Jemima]

It's really fascinating. And I guess normally on Great Company, we have guests who people will know the names of, and sometimes we have experts, and with experts, you know, they're on for a specific subject. But this is one of those episodes where he's not an expert.

[Jamie Laing]

No.

[Jemima]

He's not a celebrity.

[Jamie Laing]

No.

[Jemima]

But it's an episode where we're saying, trust us, guys.

[Jamie Laing]

Trust us. And listen to this. Yeah. And listen to this story. Because what, you know what Great Company is about is about connections and listening to amazing people and interesting people and people's stories. And this is a person with a story. So we really hope you enjoy this episode. If you haven't already, please subscribe to the show. You can find us on social media reat company podcast or you can find us on TikTok and you can email us anything at all. Let us know if you like the episode. Let us know what you want our next guest to be or who you want on. We want to hear all of that and we really hope you enjoy this episode. You ready for this?

[Jemima]

Oh, boy. Are you guys ready for this?

[Jamie Laing]

Here we go. Enjoy this episode of Great Company with Riordan Maynard.

[Reardon Maynard]

Hi, I'm Reardon Maynard, and I'm in Great Company.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you still write letters?

[Reardon Maynard]

I can tell you. Well, I'm not now, but whilst I was away, I've never written so many letters. I mean, I wrote every day for at least two hours or maybe three hours. Did you read writing letters? Yeah, long. I mean, some of them are mental and some of them are completely deranged. And, you know. Cause I would write to my mom and my wife and totally out of character as well, because I'm not very emotional as a person. Well, I wasn't. And now I am. Well, no, I don't know whether I am now, but I definitely became more emotional while I was in the clink.

[Jamie Laing]

If you have two hours a day to write. Is that how you want to spend your time? Because you want to keep your mind distracted?

[Reardon Maynard]

Partially, yeah. Prison really is a test of the mind, really, I think, because it's just. It's quite difficult to articulate what it's like because. Especially for someone like me, because I come from a very normal place.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

You know, a lovely upbringing and amazing family and had a really successful business. So to then be thrown into this sort of alternative universe was quite. It was quite. It's quite something. But. But the biggest enemy in prison is boredom, I think. I mean, there's lots of stuff. You've got a lot of violence. Loads. It's very edgy. All the time. It's edgy. And there's, of course, all sorts of characters. You have lovely people and you have awful people. Like life. Yeah, I suppose it's like a microcosm of life.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

But you. You. Boredom's the biggest problem and so you. You have to try and fill. I mean, I made the decision when I went in. I wasn't particularly successful in the first few months at this quest, but I made the decision when I went in that I would make the best of every day. Every single day. That was my. I wanted really to come out much better than when I went in. And that would fuck the US Department of Justice. Because if I went in, if I came out a shambles, they'd have won, wouldn't they? Sure. But if I came out loads better in every way, you know, whether that was from a fitness perspective or mentally or emotionally or spiritually, whatever, you know, any dimension, then. Then I'd have won, I think. And I think after the first few months were brutal. I mean, crushingly difficult.

[Jamie Laing]

I. I want to get into every little detail of this.

[Reardon Maynard]

Let's go.

[Jamie Laing]

But I think. I think in order to understand where this all happened, we sort of have to go back a little bit before. So I don't. I don't quite want to jump into bed with you before we've had some foreplay.

[Reardon Maynard]

Is that. I don' These days, I'll just jump in. But let's. Let's go with the foreplay.

[Jamie Laing]

Where did you grow up?

[Reardon Maynard]

Just south of London, in Lingfield, in Surrey.

[Jamie Laing]

Mum, dad.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. My father, unfortunately, he died while I was in prison, which was very sad. But they stayed together? Yeah, I mean. I mean, incredibly successful marriage and very happy. I had the most amazing childhood, you know, I mean, I can't. There's nothing I can blame. You can only blame one person. It's not my mom, it's not my dad, it's me. I am responsible for this situation.

[Jamie Laing]

So, yeah, affluent, you know.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, I think very, I mean, not, not very affluent, but very comfortable, you know, never want for anything. My father was a successful business guy. I left school very early, so I left at 60 as soon as I could. I hated school and so. And I was at it as well. So I got out as quickly as I could. And I really wanted to get a job. That's all I wanted to do was get a job. So I went and got a job. I left school at 16, got a job.

[Jamie Laing]

Doing what?

[Reardon Maynard]

Just an office. Junior running around the city with envelopes mainly and people telling me what to do. You know, make me a coffee or fill my parking meter. That was my favorite one. Fill my. Fill your own fucking parking meter. But that, that I wasn't very good at taking orders, but I, I. So I got my job.

[Jamie Laing]

And you were driven by money or you. Why didn't you like school? Because you.

[Reardon Maynard]

I hate being told what to do.

[Jamie Laing]

Same. You are going to, you're going to sing to so many people in this because.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Being told what to do and hating that. Which I did as well. Also, I imagine you're obviously clearly incredibly charismatic, so you must be popular. And so this is how I charm. I'm not very good at complaining. This is how I charm you and do it. But you must be.

[Reardon Maynard]

Thanks very much, Jamie. Yeah. So tell me more.

[Jamie Laing]

But big family.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yes. You know, middle child. That's important.

[Jamie Laing]

So you're competitive.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. And desperate for recognition. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay. Am I gonna end up in prison because you're singing everything about that.

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, you've got to be careful. Let me just give you one piece of adv. Pay your tax. That, that would be my singular piece of advice.

[Jamie Laing]

So you then get this job, you leave school. Sixteen, you decide, I'm going to go into the world. You go and get these jobs.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And you're working in the city. What. So what, what are you doing?

[Reardon Maynard]

Oh, it's a property company. So I wasn't working in the city like a finance person, but it was a property like a chartered surveyors. And I, I was genuine office junior and I was running around. And then very quickly they let me do some office viewings. I mean, I'm only like 16 and a half or something and they let me do these. What the people must have thought, I don't know. So I'm wandering around these big warehouses in EC1 in like Shoreditch. Old street roundabout which used to be like a bomb site. Now it's like very fancy but so I'd show them these buildings around that and, and anyway I did it. I did some deals, you know, quite quick and that's what I loved. That's when I, I just absolutely loved doing deals. Then I got, then someone said to me, oh, if you're going to get on in this business you've got to go to college and do a chartered surveyors. I said, oh, how long's that going to take? And they said three or four years. I said, you fucking nuts? There's no way I'm wasting three or four years. So then I went into residential, you know, state agency.

[Jamie Laing]

Well, because it was quicker.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. And you didn't need any qualifications. And so that was when I was about 17 or 18 and that was just stupendous. I mean the market was on fire.

[Jamie Laing]

And this has been the 90s, not.

[Reardon Maynard]

The 90s, no 80s, €8 born, something like that.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay.

[Reardon Maynard]

But the market. So I mean like a 4 year old could have sold houses. So I did really well. And, and then, and then, then there was an enormous crash.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

If you remember. Well, you won't but. And it all got rather difficult, you know, hard. And so then I. That's when me and my best friend got involved in this mobile phone business. We took over this mobile phone business in Fulham. We started flogging mobile phones when they were very expensive.

[Jamie Laing]

Was it the same time as who started Car Phone Warehouse?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, it's exactly. Don't go comparing me to him. Dunstan. He's slightly more successful I think.

[Jamie Laing]

Well, and David Ross, was it David.

[Reardon Maynard]

Ross and David Ross, yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Selling houses. You like making deals. It's kind of interesting. You know it. Everyone has a. Typically has a house. So then you move into mobile phones. You're thinking, well this is what everyone wants. Everyone's going to need one of these probably. So you're quite.

[Reardon Maynard]

I don't know whether that gives the impression I know what I'm doing.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. But does anyone really know?

[Reardon Maynard]

I'm not sure. Maybe. I think what I loved was just selling. I love selling. I love the interaction. I like the deal and the product. I really liked mobile phone. I like, I still like them, strangely enough. Gadgets, gimmick, you know, like electronic gadgets. But I'm not particularly technical but driven by making money. I don't think I am. I mean I don't really know. I, I just like the deal and I also love as it. As the company. Well that company, we fell out with the guy who provided us with the money to buy it. And so that was quite short lived but we did well in that time and we started shipping phones into China through Hong Kong and there was all sorts of really interesting stuff from a little shop in Fulham, you know and, and then we decided, myself and my friend decided to set up our own thing, you know, pure. And asked my father to come and help us because he was financial and operation, he really understanded money. We clearly. I don't understand, I mean it all happened to me. So even at 56, I don't understand money. But he. So the three of us set this company up called Touch Base.

[Jamie Laing]

And can I just quickly ask a question on that? Because I think a lot of, a lot of entrepreneurs, right, which I, I would sort of consider myself one, are typically quite creative and probably not very good at the detail and typically not very analytical. And do you think that businesses live or die by having someone in it who is financially sound?

[Reardon Maynard]

100%. I mean, absolutely. I mean let me tell you from experience, that's important. Yeah, you need someone who is annoying, you know, they annoy you and they would. They just annoy me.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah, that's really interesting. Okay. And so then you start up Touch Base.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yes.

[Jamie Laing]

What happens next?

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, we, we were based in whopping in a flat in whopping. So we just cold called tons of people from that flat and we started winning these fantastic accounts like JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs. Because of course the market's not established. It's not like you think of it now, it wasn't established and so it was new and so you could go in and if you had a good pitch. And our pitch was very good. You know we were very focused on service and lots of the providers were very transactional. No one was really doing business to business. So that's what we decided to do and that's what we enjoyed.

[Jamie Laing]

And just very quickly, when you say cell cover, you're selling, you're selling two businesses. Mobile phone. Yeah, mobile phones, basically.

[Reardon Maynard]

Basically, yeah, very. And it's very, I mean at the time they were very expensive. You, you know they're like massive all their suitcases or you put them in the car. You know they're, it's totally different.

[Jamie Laing]

And what do they cost?

[Reardon Maynard]

About 15, funnily enough, not dissimilar to now about 1500 quid. But you, you remember they, they then became free before, before the iPhone sort of changed the game. But they were so they were 1500 to maybe three and a half grand. Then. Oh, then we took on this. We did a deal with AT T, which is the big US telecoms company. I mean, like the BT of America, they wanted to bring their telephone system. So not mobile, but this, the telephone system in the. You know, you don't. Again, you don't really have them now, but everyone used to have a telephone system and they wanted to bring their enterprise level, which is like mega technology, sort of mega size, to the uk. And we said, all right, we'll have a go. So we became like one of two or three early partners of theirs.

[Jamie Laing]

Still working with your dad at this point?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're all there. And There was about 10, probably 10 employees by then, doing a few hundred grand a year.

[Jamie Laing]

Not bad.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, it was all right.

[Jamie Laing]

That's probably, what, a million quid now?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, probably, yeah. So we take this product on and the whole. It just goes fucking out of control because it's Basically like the US, all of the US companies use AT&T, and all of the US companies that are in the UK want someone to help them with their phone system. And so you can imagine the scale of that, squeezing into a little market like the uk, and then an even smaller channel, distribution channel, which is like three or four partners, went off the fucking charts. And so just grew. It grew, grew, grew, grew. Went all over Europe, all over the US, all over Asia Pacific.

[Jamie Laing]

What was your turnover?

[Reardon Maynard]

100 million, I think. $200 million, something like that. Yeah. And loads of people everywhere. I mean, the whole thing was completely out of control. In a positive way.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. You know you went to prison.

[Reardon Maynard]

I did, yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And when anyone ever says that, you go, well, why did that happen?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

So I asked you the question. Why did you go to prison?

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, technically, I went to prison because one of my companies ran up a very big tax bill with the IRS in America.

[Jamie Laing]

Who are the irs?

[Reardon Maynard]

The Internal Revenue Service, like the Inland Revenue in the uk. And it ran up that bill by using tax money for cash flow. When the global financial Crisis came in 2008, 2009, we, Touch Base lost about $100 million worth of deals in about three days.

[Jamie Laing]

And your turnover at the moment with Touch base was about 100, $200 million?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

So you lost half the business, but.

[Reardon Maynard]

It was growing, like. It was growing like 30% a quarter. I mean, it was. It was just stratospheric. And then this global financial crisis came and everything froze, because in those situations, people freeze their expenditure. Every company, you just freeze It. And for us, that was catastrophic because I had got way carried away with the. I thought I was some sort of business God. It's like some sort of here comes Midas. And so I'm, you know, setting up offices everywhere. Got my people, you know, I mean, it's. I was totally out of control.

[Jamie Laing]

In an arrogant way, yes.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, A terrible. But no, I don't think I was ever nasty, arrogant.

[Jamie Laing]

You thought you were untouchable.

[Reardon Maynard]

I definitely think I was amazing. I thought I was amazing, yeah. And.

[Jamie Laing]

And when you say everything was out of control, give me some examples of what that means.

[Reardon Maynard]

It's just like a frenetic pace of existence that you can't. I mean, it's just like relentless. Like, I would go to Sydney for lunch, then I might go to Singapore. I mean, I would. You know, everyone within every company was completely worked to death. I mean, it's like, wow. I mean, it was like a relentless. But it was not negative. No, it was extraordinarily uplift. I mean, every.

[Jamie Laing]

And exciting.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. And everyone was excited and, you know, the clients were really happy and. Yeah, it was, it was a very. It was a very good business. I mean, it was a fantastic business.

[Jamie Laing]

Were you sleeping much?

[Reardon Maynard]

No, I would. I mean, my life was ghastly, looking back.

[Jamie Laing]

But you enjoyed it at the time?

[Reardon Maynard]

I did, yeah. But there was a lot of. Well, it's difficult now because you sort of think, well, was that worth it? Because, you know, and I was working constantly. I mean, like every day, all day or night. Traveling every week. My poor wife. I mean, seriously.

[Jamie Laing]

Kids?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, I've got five children. Never really there, I don't think. I mean, she would have to tell you and they would have to tell. I don't think I was a bad husband or a bad father when I was there. I think I was, you know, I was. Well, I don't know. I don't think I was particularly well engaged.

[Jamie Laing]

You were just.

[Reardon Maynard]

I was very stressed a lot of the time, especially when it started to go pear shaped. But you get caught up in the hubris. You start to think you're really. You start to believe successful. You know, you think your, your decisions are amazing and you started to believe the hype.

[Jamie Laing]

As soon as you think you're cool, that's the moment you're not.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, you're absolutely. And that's. That's basically what happened. And so then this massive contraction occurred and we had no money and we started with 5,000 quid. So I was like the cash flow king. I mean, I am the cat. Well, until the IRS froze the old cash flow and then. Then it didn't quite work quite so well. But that's how we built the company on cash flow. So, of course, when you take the cash flow out, which is what these losing these deals did, it's like immediately. I mean, everything went tits up. So that's the point at which we had to start selling things off. And then we closed some bits and then I kept the US because I was living in the US at the time, and I wanted to try and get. Get that back to health. But it did have a big tax liability and we never. We did well over the next few years, but we never overcome that liability. Overcame that liability. And eventually the IRS said. Well, they didn't say. The IRS acted. They have immense power, the IRS in America, much more than our tax services. They don't have any.

[Jamie Laing]

It's equivalent to the HMRC here, right?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, that's right, yeah. So they put liens on the accounts, they then swept the accounts.

[Jamie Laing]

What does that mean?

[Reardon Maynard]

Took all the money out.

[Jamie Laing]

So they just took it because you owed money.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

How much money did you owe? About $5 million, which would have been around that time. Maybe you could double it. So maybe.

[Reardon Maynard]

Probably. Yeah. Yeah. But what's bizarre in all of it is that my communication with the IRS was constant. I mean, I was constantly communicating with them and our deal flow would have supported the repayment of the irs, but they didn't want that. They just wanted to draw a line under it. So they took the money out the accounts, they froze the accounts and they. The biggest killer. Because at that stage, I was just funneling money in to pay the bills, to pay the people, to pay the, you know, funnel it. Funnel it. They're funneling it out. I'm funneling it in and they're taking it, I'm putting it in. And it was like a game. And that's what I got in trouble for. Because I was moving money around and because I didn't. I was putting it in. I didn't want them taking mine, which I wanted to pay the people with, and the overheads. I didn't want them taking it to their tax. So I started moving it around and then that's when they got upset and then they wrote to the clients and that was the hard. That was the. That that finished the company.

[Jamie Laing]

What you were doing, was it illegal?

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, clearly, I mean, I've just. Brilliant. Thank you, Jamie, for your. Yeah, Well, I know why you asked.

[Jamie Laing]

I know why you asked well, can I. I asked it. I ask it because you. You went to court.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yes.

[Jamie Laing]

And you pleaded not guilty.

[Reardon Maynard]

I did, yeah. And I still say I'm not guilty.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, but. But then that's confusing because you say what you were doing was illegal.

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, what. I. Why I laughed at that. It's because technically it is illegal to. They couldn't do me for tax evasion because I was fully. We were fully disclosing our situation. We were in constant conversation with them. I mean, in fact, I did a settlement deal with them. I said, you know, on the basis that we agree this. I said I would take a million dollars of the debt personally. Would you agree not to take matters any further? And they said, yeah, okay, deal, done. And then some guy, I think this is me surmising, must have gone to the files and thought, oh, I need to find some case, you know, to make my name with or to have a go at or justify my existence. And they found mine, and a year later, they arrested me. They rocked up the turn up at the house, you know.

[Jamie Laing]

Wait, Hank, so you're living where In Denver, Colorado?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. In Colorado? Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

With your family, with your kids?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

You. What time is it?

[Reardon Maynard]

6:30 in the morning. And then they. They come and knock on the door. But funnily enough, I was at Starbucks, so. So I got a little bit of a forward warning, so they swung by Starbucks to pick me up. That was amusing. But they have all the. They have all the guns and that. I mean, it's a ghastly process because it's. It really. I mean, of course, personally, it's upsetting, but for the children, I mean, whoever comes up with these brilliant ideas about how to arrest people for this type of crime, they're imbeciles, because it has a very significant impact on children. Seeing these men with guns, and they're all aggressive. They're all. I mean, they're such dicks. To be honest. They're absolutely. I mean, seriously, I don't know what's happened to them in their life, but they're just. That arrest was very upsetting, the way in which they did it, because I had never not attended a meeting with the IRS or the Department of Justice or the Department of Labor. I had never tried to hide from the situation, ever. Not once. And. And so to do that, I just thought it was just overkill. Idiots. But anyway, so they. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah. And I mean, just totally awful. I mean, it's just like sort of crushing. Crushing.

[Jamie Laing]

Can't Believe it's happening.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Nightmare.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. Because if they'd done it a year earlier, I could have believed it because it was messy. The end of Touch base was messy, people, you know, because they froze all the assets and the company couldn't pay its 401k, which is like a pension plan. It couldn't pay its healthcare, which in America is fundamental. And so it was really messy. And that's what they engineered my criminal case into, which was of pension, healthcare, tax fraud case.

[Jamie Laing]

You, you have a seven day trial, I think it was.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And you get found not guilty.

[Reardon Maynard]

Sorry, thanks very much.

[Jamie Laing]

You get found guilty.

[Reardon Maynard]

I do get found guilty, yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

You go to prison.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

In America. Did the judge say anything to you? When you find your hearing and you're standing then. Look, we've all seen movies and TV shows. Is it similar to that where you're standing?

[Reardon Maynard]

Very similar.

[Jamie Laing]

So what happens? It's the seventh day, you, you're about to hear the hearing.

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, the trial process is brutal because it's basically. I had a shit lawyer, I mean, really farcical because I couldn't afford a lawyer, so they gave me one. And of course they're employed by the court, so it doesn't feel like they defend you. So you essentially have the prosecution viscerating you for days. I mean, full on. By the, by the end of the trial, by the end of the trial, you genuinely believe you are the worst person in the world that has ever existed and that no one could ever want to spend one second with you ever again. And that your life is. I mean, I can't articulate well enough how awful you feel because of what they say about you and how they skew your motives and the things that you've done and they get people to talk against you. I mean, the Department of Justice in America is an extraordinary, extraordinarily powerful and manipulative organization. Once they decide they want you, you're fucked. I mean, frankly, one of the biggest mistakes I made is not to settle, because I don't believe you asked this question about how can I say I was not guilty if I did what they said? I did do what they said, but none of it was. There's this thing called mens rea, which is a Latin term which means that you act with guilty intent. My intent was always to protect the company, make it successful, repay its bills, pay its people, all that sort of stuff. And that's why I, I pleaded not guilty using the mens rea defense, which is quite common.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

Because I thought I was not guilty. And I said to my lawyer, I'm not settling. Why would a not guilty guy settle? But when I got to prison, they said to me, did you go to trial? I said, yeah. They all looked at me like I was mental. I mean full on people in prison. Yeah. You never go to trial. No one ever goes to trial because they win 96.8% or something, 97% of their cases. The whole system is, I mean we don't need a discussion about the US justice system because it won't be very constructive.

[Jamie Laing]

But so can you, can you tell me what were the charges against you?

[Reardon Maynard]

I'm probably going to get these wrong because I actually haven't looked, but they upset me a bit too much. But interfering with the IRS's ability to do its job, which technically is true because I was moving money around out of their reach. Conspiracy to defraud the United States. That's my favorite one. Sounds very grand. Because they argued that myself and my finance director had planned to defraud to move the money around so they couldn't get it, which technically is correct. But there was no conspiracy. It's such a stupid term. I mean wasn't, we weren't conspiring to defraud anyone. And then lots related to the health care plan and the 401k, the pension plan, those were the most upsetting. The tax one, I don't care about. I mean we up with the tax. That's the way it is. Lots of people do it. The health care and the pension one are very upsetting for me because they involved the people of the company and some people did lose money and that's upsetting. And I, you know, I, I'm quite light hearted about some aspects of this journey, but that I take very seriously and I'm very, I'm obviously very sorry for it and I, I continue to feel very, very bad and, and my mission is to get to a point where I can start repaying some of these people. Not the.

[Jamie Laing]

When you go into prison, what is it like?

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, that's a, you know, I went through the trial then the sentencing was extraordinary because on the way to the, on the way to the court, I said to Tara, who's my wife, my long suffering, she's put up with a lot. Oh my God. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Christian, that's got to be soulmates.

[Reardon Maynard]

Remarkable. I mean she's just absolutely ridiculously remarkable.

[Jamie Laing]

Slightly non existent husband at the beginning, they go to prison.

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, and still non existent. I mean she's in Colorado, she doesn't live here. It's like, I don't blame her. I mean, so we're on the way to the, we're on the way to the sentencing. I said, she's not going to put me in, I'm not going to be put in prison, they'll give me a suspended sentence. At worst, they'll give me home detention. Genuinely, that was my. I could not conceive how anyone could put someone in prison for what they did me for. Anyway, so to get to the court, stand up in front of this judge. I mean, clearly she hated me, which is a shame because usually I'm very good with women, but she really hated me. And whatever happened, she, she said, I did my statement, you know, I said I'm, I'm genuinely, I was very sorry.

[Jamie Laing]

And you're nervous.

[Reardon Maynard]

Very nervous, yeah. I mean, yeah, very nervous.

[Jamie Laing]

More nervous than you can ever possibly even explain.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. Although don't forget, I thought I was going home.

[Jamie Laing]

You thought you were going home. So you thought you were going home with a tag on your foot and.

[Reardon Maynard]

That was going to be it at worst.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow.

[Reardon Maynard]

And she said, I've, I came in, yes, this is a Monday. She said, I came in yesterday, which was her Sunday, especially to consider this case and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I've decided to be lenient. So I'm thinking, great, maybe not even a suspend. She said, I'm going to give you 72 months. And I thought, are you out of your mind? I mean, an armed robber who goes into a bank and takes the money with a gun might get four and a half years, five years, this is six and a half years. Anyway, so that was crushing, of course. But then the IRS guy came up to me and said he was all happy with himself, of course, and he said, don't worry, you'll be in a camp. It's like going to a holiday camp and it's just down the road from your house. So I thought, all right, not too bad. So that was shocking, the six and a half years. Then you get a couple of weeks, they let you go, you walk out and you go home. Yeah, it's weird system because you're. Which I was very grateful for because the alternative is that from the day they arrest you, you are in county jail, which is very rough. And that would have been like a year and a year earlier. So they let me go home and I was allowed to self surrender. So they said within a few weeks someone will call you and tell you where to surrender. And the judge said, you'll Be in a place near your family. Oh. And they fined me $5 million. So I said, I've got five children, a wife completely dependent on me. The IRS has taken all my money. You're going to put me somewhere and you find me $5 million. You're going to put me somewhere where I can't earn one cent for six and a half years. It's mental. She, she said, we don't want the money. We just need to make an example of you. And so that's. That was the sentencing. And then, and then.

[Jamie Laing]

Can I, can I ask a question? When you go home for those two weeks and you have to say goodbye to your family and all these different things and speak to your friends and everything, is there any part of you which gets tempted to run for it?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, every part of you. I mean, I considered that a lot and Tara said, if you want to go, go. You know, and.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow.

[Reardon Maynard]

You know. Yeah. Why not? I mean, did you plan? No. I don't think, to be honest, I must be delusional. I mean, there's something in my character, which is how I. It must be a coping mechanism or something. It's a mental trick that. Because the minute I was sentenced, I get the six and a half years, I immediately then think, okay, I'll be out in a year, I'll get the appeal going.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm similar to that. I always think that.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

So interesting. I do the same thing with lots of stuff. I'll be right. I'll get through that. Yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

It's the only way. Otherwise how can you.

[Jamie Laing]

Because you can't, you can't comprehend.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. You can't process it.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

And so I did think about running and I'm. And even while I was in prison, most of the time I thought, fuck, I should have really done a runner. But to now I'm really pleased I didn't.

[Jamie Laing]

Because where would you have gone?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. And wherever I went, they would go.

[Jamie Laing]

And you would look over your shoulder for the rest of your life and then it would be triple.

[Reardon Maynard]

Horrific.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, Horrific.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And living in fear for the rest of your life, it's a. That's a really sort of short term goal for a long term existence.

[Reardon Maynard]

Agreed. Also, it was incredibly good for me, prison. I mean, I'm not being like some idiot. It was. The one thing that was brutal was the family side. Because what I was going to tell you is what happened was none of those predictions about location became true because I was an immigrant. They put me in a prison in California, which was okay. It was. It was like. It was all right, an immigrant's prison, but a thousand miles from Tara and the children. And then they put me in a really rough place in Pennsylvania, was it? Yeah, Pennsylvania. And then they moved me to a super rough place in another part of Pennsylvania. And then I ended up in this sort of mid rough. But I. But at all times I was away from Tara and the children, so I didn't see them for four years. And because Covid came then they couldn't visit. And then Tara and I decided it's too much. You know, why do they want to come and see you in front of a screen?

[Jamie Laing]

Wow.

[Reardon Maynard]

Hello. I haven't seen you for a couple of years. Oh, you look. You grown. It's like poor things. So the.

[Jamie Laing]

Just you mentioned before that you go into. You're in California. How old are you at that point? You're.

[Reardon Maynard]

When I go in. Yeah, 50. Exactly. Yeah. I just have my 50th birthday and.

[Jamie Laing]

10 years before you're having your 40th birthday in Singapore. And I was like living it up, living it up. And then suddenly that, that I never.

[Reardon Maynard]

Thought of it, like 10 years later.

[Jamie Laing]

Don't worry about it.

[Reardon Maynard]

Just feeling good.

[Jamie Laing]

But hang on, you. You said the first two months was brutal.

[Reardon Maynard]

Oh, my God.

[Jamie Laing]

But just give me to the mental space and like that kind of thing. What happens to the mind, to the body, to the. To the person, to everything, to the soul?

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, firstly, they had set my expectations wrong. And that was bad because they had told me I was going to go to a camp and that I'd be near the children and Tara. So the. So that was a bad start. And so I learned that I'm going to be in California in an immigrant prison and not in a camp. I'm not allowed in a camp because I'm an immigrant. And there are no fences in camps. Camps are basically camps. They're quite nice. Your children can come and have a barbecue. You know, it's actually. They're not bad. And so that's a bad start. So I get to the prison and I'm. The other thing that. I'm a avid smoker. My whole life I've smoked. And so I have my last cigarette and I haven't smoked since. And that's one of the greatest gifts the IRS gave me. But I put it out feeling strangely okay.

[Jamie Laing]

Quite interested.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. I don't know where I was mentally, but I was. I was straight. I was. I was all right. And then I go in to the Frisian through the Reception through the metal detector, strip naked, get washed down. Like films. Just like the films.

[Jamie Laing]

With the hose.

[Reardon Maynard]

With the hose, yeah. And then they put the jumpsuit on you. It's all just like the movies. And then they put you in a holding cell, and you can be in the hold. I was in the holding cell for about three hours, and that was the worst I got. I mean, that was when I. I was hyperventilating. Then I suddenly realized I was in prison. That was the first time. Before that, I don't know where I was, frankly.

[Jamie Laing]

No, you're not. You're too optimistic to even comprehend it.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, I don't know what was going on in my brain, but that was. I suddenly realized I wasn't coming out for a long time, and that was hard. And then that was when they also told me I wasn't going in a camp. That was also hard because suddenly I'm going to a proper. Like a grownup's prison. And.

[Jamie Laing]

And you're.

[Reardon Maynard]

I mean, I have not got a clue about what's going on with prison. So I get in. Just to give you an example. I get. They give me all my gear. You have to walk across the courtyard. Everyone's looking at you, and they're making noises. You're walking across with all your gear, and.

[Jamie Laing]

Oh, my God.

[Reardon Maynard]

I get into the unit, the block, get to the bed, and I'm. I'm shitting myself. I'm full on. Because you just don't know what. You just don't know.

[Jamie Laing]

You're thinking, shawshank Redemption.

[Reardon Maynard]

You're thinking, I think someone's gonna shag me. What's gonna happen next? Oh, keep your pants on. So. So this guy comes up to me and I don't know.

[Jamie Laing]

You in a cell by yourself.

[Reardon Maynard]

No, no, no, no. In this prison, it was open. It was semi open. So it's sort of little breeze block cells, but with. They were open at the top, and there's about 150 people, maybe more, all sleeping together in this room. And I mean, I haven't got a clue what's going on. I go into. Go in. Get in my bunk. I got the shittiest bunk. Because you're new and in an immigrant prison, I'm nothing because I'm English. They're full of Mexicans. They run. It's run by Mexicans. As you. As they would be because they're the predominant immigrant race in America. And so. So I get in the bunk, this guy comes up to me, and I'm scared. I don't Know. Do you talk to people? Don't you talk to. I don't know anything. I've got no etiquette. I don't know what the rules are. So this guy comes up to me and he goes, who do you run with? I said, I haven't been running yet. He said, no, no, no, no. He said, what car are you in? I said, what? He said, what? Oh, what group are you? What group are you with? I said, I haven't decided yet. I'm going to have a look around, see which group. I genuinely said, he's looking at me like I'm fucking mental. I mean, he's like, can't compute. Anyway, it transpires that what he wants to know is which. Whether I'm with the white supremacists or whether I'm with the. The Crips or the Bloods or the Pisans or the. I mean, they have all these gangs. I mean, there's just gang after. That's how it runs. The whole system run on gangs. I said. I said to him, I haven't got a clue. I said, I don't want to be in a gang. He said, you haven't got an option. You've got to be in a gang.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm going to start my own.

[Reardon Maynard]

I said, so I actually, quite successfully in that prison, avoided being in a gang.

[Jamie Laing]

So you didn't go into a gang?

[Reardon Maynard]

No, because. Well, I was sort of part of this thing called the others, which is basically. Which was really nice. It was all of the others who weren't particularly well represented. So I was in the minority for once in my life.

[Jamie Laing]

What was your handshake? Did you have a secret handshake?

[Reardon Maynard]

No, there was no secret handshake, but we had little meetings. We did. They were. And they were lovely, I must say. I must say, one of the things about prison that's quite interesting is how well organized it is really at an inmate level, not at an op. Well, operational level, actually. I think the American prisons are run very well, I think, because it's a massive organization, as you can imagine, American.

[Jamie Laing]

Prisons are also privately owned.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

So all the inmates are the customers.

[Reardon Maynard]

That's true. That's true. Which is. Some are privately owned, some are state. Sorry, Some are federally owned.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay.

[Reardon Maynard]

But you're right, which seems counterproductive. It's odd. The private ones are odd because it's profit. It's profit.

[Jamie Laing]

So more people you have in prison, the more profit you're making.

[Reardon Maynard]

Unfortunately, that is, they don't want you to leave. I can tell you that they absolutely don't want and if you leave, they want you to come back. So yeah, so that what was your.

[Jamie Laing]

Role in the gang?

[Reardon Maynard]

Well that. That not nothing really in that one.

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[Jamie Laing]

Did you ever have to fight anyone in prison? No, never.

[Reardon Maynard]

I got into a real pickle with a couple of guys. One of the problems I've got is I have no tolerance, especially for rudeness. I mean, disrespect and rudeness? Forget it. I mean, you'd think that a little chap like me who hasn't had a fight since he was at school would keep his mouth shut. But I can't keep my mouth shut. So These. There was this guy sitting on a bunk, sort of three or four bunks from me all day he would go on and on about his life. You know, he's just shouting and talking loudly and making everyone listen to his business. All day, all day. I'm not joking. All day. So a few days went by and I think it was a Sunday or something, and I went up to her and said, look, you're gonna have to shut the fuck up because you're driving me insane. And also, no one in this place wants to know your business. We don't want to know what's going. You keep. You have your conversation with your. Whoever you're having the conversation. I'll have my conversation with whoever I'm having. We don't need to hear about your life. I went awful. I completely lost it. And then I walked off. And then I was doing. At the time they. We were on lockdown and I was in a dormitory environment. And the only way you could get exercise was to walk around. I mean, it's mindless. Walk around the beds. So then I continued to walk around the feds. Anyway, this guy with his mate. And these guys are massive. They come up to me, push, not physically, but they move me by moving themselves into a corner. And they said, no one tells us what to do in our prison. And I said, oh, I'm terribly sorry. I'm new. I don't know any of the rules. All I know is that you look like much. You look much too intelligent to think that it's acceptable to be shouting around if all 140 of us shout all day. Anyway, I went on, calmed them down, but they, but they. They were really going to beat the shit out of me. And the one that I challenged said at the end, you know I'm in here for murder, don't you? I can't control my temper. I said, actually, I didn't know. I didn't know that, but it's good to know. And then off they went and we. It calmed down. That was my most. And then there were other instances where my gang had. You know, you would. Not mine the one that I was in. No, no, this was later.

[Jamie Laing]

Oh, you're in a new game.

[Reardon Maynard]

Oh, I had to go into the whites. When you go into a proper place, you have to go into your race.

[Jamie Laing]

Really?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, yeah, it's all very race.

[Jamie Laing]

Wait, hang on. So you then get moved this in Pennsylvania?

[Reardon Maynard]

No. So then I'm. I'm in California. So in California, I had experienced this terrible despair. Yeah, I mean, Proper like depression, anxiety. Extraordinary. And I've never had that before, so it was quite, I mean, in retrospect, quite valuable. And then.

[Jamie Laing]

Can I ask just a really awful question before you do lots of people take their own life in prison?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, all the time. All the time, yeah. Because it just, it's not uncommon at all. Yeah. I mean you. And you can sort of see them going. But you can't do much about it. You become very mercenary. You don't really. Nothing really phases you.

[Jamie Laing]

Really.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. I mean I had someone beaten to death in front of me with a lock in a sock. Yeah. I mean it's like, you can't believe it. It's like. Yeah. I mean it's just, it's surreal. I can't even con. I can't even process that I was in there. Yeah. So you become very.

[Jamie Laing]

And you, you can't do anything.

[Reardon Maynard]

No, you mustn't do anything. You absolutely mustn't.

[Jamie Laing]

Why?

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, because it conflicts with lots of rules. They have all sorts of rules about fighting and. Which frankly all makes sense.

[Jamie Laing]

Explain that to me.

[Reardon Maynard]

You basically you're organized into gangs of. They call them cars, people that you ride with. That's why they call it a car.

[Jamie Laing]

So it's like school when you get put into houses.

[Reardon Maynard]

Basically. Yeah, it's very similar. And it organizes itself. It's a bit like Lord of the Flies. It basically organizes itself with the toughest at the top and the weakest at the bottom.

[Jamie Laing]

That's how it works.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, I mean, or I suppose most influential. And so you're in the gangs and then there's two options. You either if I wanted to fight you, I can have a fight with you one to one. But if anyone else gets involved, like if one of your mates from your gang helps you, then it becomes a gang, a group affair. And so, so there's quite a lot of one off fights. There's not many all in fights.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow. So there are rules.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, loads of rules. You can't believe how many rules. I mean. And that's how it runs because the guards.

[Jamie Laing]

It is quite smartly done.

[Reardon Maynard]

It's very, very good. Yeah. And it's. That's one of the things when you get to know it, that makes it doable because the unknowns gently disappear and you start to feel a bit more in control.

[Jamie Laing]

So when this person is beaten next to you with a lock in a sock.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. That's brutal.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, that is brutal.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. Yeah, that was absolutely brutal. I mean, blood everywhere. I mean it was really Nasty.

[Jamie Laing]

And the guy dies.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that was horrible.

[Jamie Laing]

Does that scar. Does that not? Or do you just. It's. It's.

[Reardon Maynard]

You're sort of.

[Jamie Laing]

You. You sort of put it into a box and just go. Well, that was just. I think.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, you're. What do they call it? The disassociation.

[Jamie Laing]

You disassociate yourself. Yeah, yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

I think that's what you do. You must do. Because it doesn't affect me at all.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow. Because it's sort of like, interesting enough. It's like the. God, it's sort of the animal kingdom in a. It's like leopards attacking.

[Reardon Maynard]

No, but that is what it is. Like that. I mean, that's what unfettered, uncontrolled human is like. I think humans alike. I think.

[Jamie Laing]

You know the thing about prison which you sort of always think is that, like that first night.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And it's like. I recently rewatched Shawshank Redemption. That's why I bring it up. And yeah, they.

[Reardon Maynard]

The.

[Jamie Laing]

The inmates.

[Reardon Maynard]

Quite accurate that the inmates. Old. But.

[Jamie Laing]

But, yeah, the inmates make bets on who's going to cry out first or make noises first or scream first or call for their mum first. And it's quite a harrowing scene. And then the guards come in and beat them up. And it's a bit. Any of that realistic?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, very realistic. Yeah. You feel. Well, there are lots of people who are suffering badly in prison, mentally. Lots. It is a serious problem.

[Jamie Laing]

Over 50 of people incarcerated have a head injury, apparently. Is that right in the uk? Yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. I'm not surprised because there. And that. That leads to constant noise in the environment. Because they're. They're not well, mentally. I mean, they're genuinely not well. And. And nothing is done about it. I mean, it's. They're literally just left to. So that's why you do get that type of environment with lots of awful noises. I mean, it's a bit like One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest all the time. But that was very difficult to deal with. But the first night's terrible and then it just gets progressively worse until. Until you. So that's my experience, but explain why.

[Jamie Laing]

Because mentally, you start to break down.

[Reardon Maynard]

You start to realize the gravity. I start to realize the gravity of the situation. And I found for the first time, because I've always been very good at converting situations to my advantage mentally, this was the first time that wasn't working. I was just spiraling, mentally spiraling into just doom scenarios. I mean, relentless doom scenarios all about Tara and the children all. You know, because to me, that was really the only thing. The other stuff, it doesn't really matter, does it?

[Jamie Laing]

No. You suddenly realize what matters in life.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. And then you get the most crushing guilt. And then you get extraordinary anxiety from the environment because it's edge. It's so edgy.

[Jamie Laing]

What do you mean by edgy?

[Reardon Maynard]

It's always just about to kick off. I mean, it's always just. There's always just been a. It's going to be a fight or someone's going to get pissed off with someone else, or there's going to be a gang fighting another gang, or. It's always constant. It's 24 7, relentless. So.

[Jamie Laing]

And when you spoke about hopelessness.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. And that's when I became hopeless because. And I. And later I worked out why, which is that I had basically my whole life, I've had a very clear picture of what I want, what I want to achieve at any given time. It's not. Not always. It's not been constant, but I've always had a really, really clear vision of what I'm. Why I'm here, what I'm trying to do. Why am I going to. This is why I was saying to you earlier, why am I going to work? Why am I working 20 hours a day? Where is it going? What am I trying to achieve? All this. So my. My future was very clear. And so for the first time, it was the opposite. My future was not very compelling. I couldn't see how I could possibly get even to do another week, let alone another six years, six and a half years. And I could tell how upset Tara was. I mean, she was mortified. You know, we've been together since she was 19 and I was 26 or something.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

So, I mean, it's just a horrible situation. That's what's so terrible about the. I don't dispute that if I've done something wrong, I should be punished 100%. But the punishment really. Of course, it was quite difficult for me. But the punishment is really on the family. It's not really on the person who did the deed.

[Jamie Laing]

Cause you're just sitting thinking, they have to suffer.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. I mean, they've got to live a life. They've got to on their own. And, you know, all the support system's gone. And I mean, I've got my laundry, I get fed. I mean, I can read books. I read 450 books while I was in there. I mean, who gets to read 450 books when they're 50. No one. So it is all a bit skewed, the system.

[Jamie Laing]

Was there any shame for Tara having a husband in prison?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yes. Shocking. I mean, that's ghast. And for the children, they're bullied and brutal. Yeah. I mean, that's why they're so amazing. I mean, they are genuinely amazing. All the children are incredible. Tara's remarkable. And that's what is terrible about the situation, is their experience, not mine, really.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you think that's the only thing that makes you emotional when you really think about it?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. Don't push me too much. Cause I know what you're doing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, very emotional. I mean, what is remarkable is my relationship with them now, which is brilliant. I think, you know, they may have a different opinion of that, but based on the circumstances, we get on amazingly well. And, you know, with all, you know, from all myself and all the children and Tara, we get on incredibly well. It's a very positive relationship. And even in prison it was very positive.

[Jamie Laing]

How do you cope? I want to understand the mental resilience.

[Reardon Maynard]

Oh, yeah. So this is. Well, that tracks back to the very start, when I lost the plot. I mean, properly. Didn't think I was gonna make it completely suicidal. Cause there's no hope at all.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you talk to anyone in there about it?

[Reardon Maynard]

No, you mustn't show weakness at all. You must never show weakness, otherwise you're going to get. No, you mustn't show weakness.

[Jamie Laing]

If you show weakness, what happens?

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, you get dominated in some form. Hopefully not sexually, but there's a lot of. There's a lot of sex that goes on. Yeah, you mustn't ever show weakness. For instance, if someone wanted to take your food, you couldn't allow that because then you'd never eat.

[Jamie Laing]

So how do you resist that? Just say you're not having it.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, I just say you're not having it. Yeah. And then you just wait, see what happens. But if you've got the front, they're usually quite. Yeah, usually. Well, in my case they did, but. But latterly I start. I learned how to get alliances, you know, with. With people.

[Jamie Laing]

So you're hopeless.

[Reardon Maynard]

Oh, yeah. So I mean, in this. Hopeless. I mean. And then suddenly I realize, well, you've got. Your only option is either to go or sort yourself out. And. And so then I start. Then I just. Obviously I decided to sort myself out. And so I then started working. I started reading a lot of self development books and then I came across this book called Mind is the Master, which is actually about 20 different books all put into one by this one guy written in like the 1920s. I can't remember his name. They're really sort of mental development. I don't like to call them tricks because they're not, I don't really mechanisms.

[Jamie Laing]

James Allen, yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

James Allen, yeah. And then my brother sent me a book called Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl who is very famous for being a concentration camp inmate and his observations he then turned into this book and then he, I think he might have been a psychiatrist before he even became a prisoner. But on his release he then developed a whole system of psychiatry which was based on the, the basic principle that whatever you ex. The way in which you interpret what you experience determines what you experience. Does that make sense? And that really changed my life really.

[Jamie Laing]

But explain that deeper to me.

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, it basically means that the way that you interpret events are, determines the impact those events will have on you.

[Jamie Laing]

Give me a scenario.

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, I'm, I'm in prison and it's, you know, it's really bad. Yeah. And I can wallow in that or I can think to myself actually what 56 year old. Actually I wasn't 56 at the time. What 50 year old man gets all this time to themselves, to develop themselves, to get super fit to read 450 books, to learn things that I need to know. I want to know about finance. I spent loads of time learning about finance because that was the bit that fucked me, my lack of knowledge and interest in finance. And so I start to think of this spell in prison as a gift, a genuine gift. And also the guy who went into prison was a dick, not a full on dick. I mean I wouldn't, I don't want to comment but he wasn't, he thought he was quite special and it turns out he wasn't actually that special at all. So there's all this scope for improvement and that doesn't negate all the negatives with the family and everything. But I then started to really get into that, that this idea that actually I've got four years, five years or six years depending on what they wanted to do with the six and a half they gave me to completely transform myself. Who else is going to get that? I mean you won't get that.

[Jamie Laing]

No. And it's an amazing realization to have that.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, it's extraordinary.

[Jamie Laing]

But can I just understand the mind here? Do you think we have control over the mind?

[Reardon Maynard]

100%, thousand percent? That was the realization I had. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

So the Moments that we have which when we feel maybe anxious or scared or depressed about situations and look, I understand there are some chemical imbalances. Anything to do with situational issues when you're. You think you can mentally flip that.

[Reardon Maynard]

In your mind 100 I absolutely categoric. Well, I. They put me in a high maximum security prison, which was fucking brutal. And when I arrived, there's blood on the floor of the cell. And the guy in the cell is there, he's killed his previous cellmate and he's waiting to be shipped. And they put me in the bed of oven. So I'm. And it's middle of the night. I've just been on Con Air. You know, Nicolas Cage, that film Connect.

[Jamie Laing]

You've been on Con Air.

[Reardon Maynard]

That is mental. And so I get into this, it's middle of the night, they put me in this place and I said, what are you doing? You put me in this. Yeah, it'll be gone, It'll be gone. I'm shitting myself. And. And immediately I told myself, this is an amazing opportunity to test my mental strength and my resilience. I'm going to get an enormous amount out of this. My attitude changed immediately. I was embracing it. It's like, I'll have it. Bring it on. And so I def. I mean, that's one of my biggest. If I have a mission in life is to help or at least to show people that it is possible to change the way that you think. And that's the biggest realization I had because I had beaten my. Through the trial and through those initial months in prison, I'd really programmed myself to think I was an awful person. Awful father, awful husband, awful son, awful businessman, awful. I mean, everything's awful, you know, you are the worst of the worst. So that was my programming. I had programmed myself to think that way. And so over the course of the next however long, I then started this process which I've now built into a program, but which completely changed the way I think.

[Jamie Laing]

And you can coach this 100%.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, it's a basic, but it takes a lot of work. That's the problem.

[Jamie Laing]

Always everything does.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. There's nothing new in what I'm talking about. There's lots of books. I call it brain training. And it's a bit. I don't know whether it's a bit dodgy to talk about because it might sound a bit cult like, but it is basically what cults do actually. And it is actually what religions do. What you see in prison, a lot are born again Christians a lot. I mean, a lot. And they are the happiest people in prison, bar none. They have no worries. They are 100% confident in themselves and they're. They love where they are.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm definitely. I'm. Because I always try and reflect on me. I'm definitely in a space, I think, at the moment where I have so much going on. You know, businesses and podcasting and radio.

[Reardon Maynard]

Must be like, out of control.

[Jamie Laing]

A little bit out of control, I would say. And then that can sometimes dip into moments where you. You don't really reflect on what you're doing. And I want to get to that place where I'm more excited. I am very excited about life. I'm massively. And I love life, but more be appreciative of life, I suppose. And I don't want to get to a space where something. I look back when I'm, you know, 60, 70, and go, I was not even present. Yeah, I wasn't thinking. And I think that comes with what you're saying where 100%.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. And I think that's true of most people. One of the things I am doing, I am going to do is try and help people plan their life more effectively, which sounds quite grand, but it's basically helping people determine what their compelling future looks like and then putting a plan together to get to the compelling future and then help them practice these sort of behaviors that will develop the habits that will allow you to achieve it and to recognize what they've already got. I mean, your classic example, you've started off lots of strands of activity. Some of them, you might not really. They might not really be in line with what you should be doing or want to be doing or taking you to where you want to go. So you've got to sort of review. I find it amazing that in business, companies plan and visualize all the time and then they measure all the time and they're constantly tweaking and moving things and changing strategies. No one does that in their personal life. But it's the same principle. You've still got to have all the same things. And so that's basically what I've got. This thing I'm going to call it Mind Fort M I N D F O R T. And I'm going to develop. I've got two programs I've developed. One is focused on that which is the individual, and then the second one, which I think is also massively needed, is driving the engagement of people in companies because it's just not there. There's not enough. Focus on it.

[Jamie Laing]

In business, you have your first customer. I would love to be part of that.

[Reardon Maynard]

I'll do it for you.

[Jamie Laing]

I would absolutely love.

[Reardon Maynard]

Mind for program.

[Jamie Laing]

I would love to be a part of it.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Individually and for maybe business.

[Reardon Maynard]

All right, let's do it.

[Jamie Laing]

That's a deal.

[Reardon Maynard]

I'm loving that.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, that's.

[Reardon Maynard]

Are you saying I've done a deal?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, you've done a deal.

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, it's been worth the meeting. Thanks very much. Thanks for your time.

[Jamie Laing]

We have to annoyingly wrap up. I mean, honestly, I could go for hours and hours and hours with you. I feel like we sort of just touched the surface. So I think we're gonna have to do a part two. I think we should.

[Reardon Maynard]

Of course. I'm very happy. I must thank you for giving me this chance.

[Jamie Laing]

Are you kidding me?

[Reardon Maynard]

I've never really talked about it like this.

[Jamie Laing]

I really would like to do a part two. So I think for the audience who are listening right now, we haven't done this before, but let us know how much you enjoy it and whether you want to hear a part two, because I think everyone's gonna love it.

[Reardon Maynard]

Might bore them. You never know.

[Jamie Laing]

No, you definitely have not, because you. Because I think I'm the audience and you. I mean, I'm beyond gripped. We like to end the conversation with eight questions. What's the saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up?

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, I'm gonna use one my mum sent me this morning in preparation for time with you, which was keep calm and carry on. I love that.

[Jamie Laing]

Best compliment anyone's ever given you.

[Reardon Maynard]

Similar, actually, to what you said, but about yourself. But I love it when people say how much impact I've had on them. And genuinely, I've had the most remarkable feedback about Touch Base because it really did produce some extraordinary people. I mean, that was our thing. So, yeah, anything to do with that.

[Jamie Laing]

What scares you most about yourself?

[Reardon Maynard]

We might have to do another podcast on that one. I've got major issues, probably. I'm. I'm relentless. If I want something, I cannot not do it, do it. And that's. That sounds like it's like most of those things. It's positive and negative, isn't it? But that is. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

When was the last time you cried?

[Reardon Maynard]

Funnily enough, I have become. I never cried my whole life. I cried when I got arrested, when I saw my oldest son. I had a breakdown after coming back from the trial, the court. So I only say that because it's not in my Nature to cry at all, ever. And so I did then, and. But now I cry at the stupidest. I mean, I'm walking across that bridge from Embankment to the other side.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

And I turn around and I saw the Houses of Parliament and London. And then I'm back in London, you know, because I mean, it's quite emotional having been in clink.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow.

[Reardon Maynard]

And I started crying. I mean, it's really weird.

[Jamie Laing]

That's amazing.

[Reardon Maynard]

But the. The. The most was when they put me on the plane. I mean, I'm weeping like a small schoolboy. I mean, I literally. The people, they must have thought, what the have we got here? Because they dropped me off in my handcuffs in the plane. And then I. As it took off, I started crying.

[Jamie Laing]

On the plane back to the uk.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, because that's. That's pure freedom. That's not. If they'd kept me in America, if they hadn't deported me, I'd have to pay $5 million and I would have to report into probation every week. This is true freedom.

[Jamie Laing]

Now, what's something you can't let go of?

[Reardon Maynard]

My love of luxury, which I really hoped I would be able to. I really hoped I could become like a student traveler. Here we go. No way.

[Jamie Laing]

What's your guilty pleasure?

[Reardon Maynard]

Probably the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.

[Jamie Laing]

It's my wife.

[Reardon Maynard]

That's because Tara and I watched it. We used to love it, but it's really embarrassing.

[Jamie Laing]

But I've got into it now. It's quite good.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

What turns you off?

[Reardon Maynard]

Mess. I'm very tidy.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm quite tidy.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

What turns you on?

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, all the normal stuff. Love women and probably architecture. I really love architecture.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I love that. What do you like most about yourself?

[Reardon Maynard]

Probably my optimism. I really. I. And I like the fact that I kept it. Tara says that's why I was in prison, because of my optimism. Because I cannot see that it's not gonna work.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm. I am. I'm literally exactly the same, which can be dangerous sometimes, so be careful. For that.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, you need. Well, basically my advice would just be to get some strong partner who says, don't do that. Let's not do that. And listen. I didn't listen.

[Jamie Laing]

Bonus 1. Someone listening to this right now. What would you. What one thing would you want them to take away from this conversation that.

[Reardon Maynard]

Regardless of your situation, the way in which you interpret it will determine how much you get from it.

[Jamie Laing]

This has been truly fascinating. Oh, good.

[Reardon Maynard]

I'm really pleased because I was myself.

[Jamie Laing]

Are you serious?

[Reardon Maynard]

Who knows how these things are going to turn out.

[Jamie Laing]

This was amazing.

[Reardon Maynard]

I hope you're not just being nice.

[Jamie Laing]

I swear. I swear to God. That was amazing. Thank you so, so much. That has been amazing. I really. Okay.

[Reardon Maynard]

Thank you very much. Thank you.

[Jamie Laing]

Amazing. Was it Y.

[Jemima]

Oh, so good. So, so, like, what a. What a ride.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow. So when I initially told you about him, what did you initially think?

[Jemima]

To be honest, I was just like, I was a bit eye rolly, like. And then when you were like, no, trust me, and I couldn't find him online and then you were like, he's an ex con. I was like, jamie, no, no.

[Jamie Laing]

But then that story is just fascinating. So fascinating.

[Jemima]

And what a charismatic man.

[Jamie Laing]

Very charismatic. Very charismatic. I think that's probably why he did well or he was okay in prison and business and everything.

[Jemima]

But he's also very open about his mistakes and how his failings.

[Jamie Laing]

Yes. And I think that's really important. We really hope you enjoyed the episode. Let us know what you think of it in the comments. You can send us an email greatcompanyjampodproductions.co.uk or you can slide in our DMS@GreatCompany podcast. Everything is in the show description if you want to check it out.

[Jemima]

We've also put in the bio everything that Riordan spoke about. So if you want to check out mindfort, it's also in the bio.

[Jamie Laing]

We love having you guys and thank you so much for listening again. Isn't that right, Jamoma?

[Jemima]

Indeed.

[Jamie Laing]

And we're going to see you next week for another episode of great company.

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[Jamie Laing]

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