AMOL RAJAN: NOTHING CAN PREPARE YOU FOR THE DEATH OF A PARENT

Summary

Great Company with Jamie Laing - Episode Summary

Episode Title: AMOL RAJAN: NOTHING CAN PREPARE YOU FOR THE DEATH OF A PARENT
Release Date: February 19, 2025
Guest: Amol Rajan
Host: Jamie Laing
Produced by: Jampot Productions

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1. Episode Overview

In this deeply emotional and introspective episode of Great Company with Jamie Laing, host Jamie engages in a heartfelt conversation with renowned broadcaster Amol Rajan. The discussion delves into the profound impact of losing a parent, exploring themes of grief, personal growth, and the essential human need for connection.

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2. Guest Background: Amol Rajan

Amol Rajan, the host of University Challenge and a prominent figure in British journalism, shares his journey from being the youngest editor of The Independent at 29 to becoming a beloved broadcaster. Known for his empathetic interviewing style, Rajan has interacted with figures like Bill Gates and Philip Schofield, balancing his professional rigor with personal kindness.

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3. The Depth of Grief: Personal Experiences

The core of the episode centers on Rajan's devastating loss—the death of his father three years prior. He opens up about the unexpectedness of his father's passing, the intensive five-week period in intensive care, and the lasting emotional scars left behind.

• Amol Rajan: "Your parents are going to die, man, and it's going to be a million times worse than you think it's going to be and you have to get ready for it." [26:13]

Rajan discusses the rawness of his grief, the perpetual pain, and the challenges of reconciling his professional life with his personal sorrow. He emphasizes the universality of grief and its ability to resurface unexpectedly, complicating even the most accomplished individuals' lives.

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4. The Importance of Connections and Relationships

A significant portion of the conversation highlights the essential role of genuine relationships in combating loneliness and fostering happiness. Rajan reflects on his close-knit friendships and the rarity of such bonds in today's digitally connected yet emotionally detached society.

• Amol Rajan: "True freedom and belonging and happiness comes from connection without a doubt. And that means commitment without a doubt." [09:51]

He shares anecdotes about his efforts to rekindle meaningful connections, the challenges parents face in maintaining friendships amidst responsibilities, and the irreplaceable value of being vulnerable with close friends.

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5. Navigating Life's Changes and Priorities

Rajan and Laing explore the evolution of personal priorities over time, especially after significant life events like marriage and parenthood. Rajan discusses the balance between professional ambitions and personal fulfillment, highlighting his conscious decision to prioritize relationships over relentless career advancement.

• Amol Rajan: "I believe in work, but I work harder at my relationships than I do in my career, and that's changed over time." [22:13]

He underscores the shift from material wealth to moral wealth—valuing love and meaningful connections over financial success—a transformation that brings inner contentment and reduces regret.

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6. Coping Mechanisms and Reflections

The episode delves into the coping strategies Rajan employs to manage his grief and anxiety. From seeking counseling to contemplating profound moments of vulnerability, such as the thought of reconnecting with his father through death, Rajan illustrates the complexity of navigating loss.

• Amol Rajan: "Grief is so profound, it changes you." [27:04]

He emphasizes the importance of time in healing, the role of supportive relationships, and the need to confront and express emotions rather than suppress them. Rajan also touches upon the societal loneliness epidemic and the impact of the internet era on forming lasting relationships.

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7. Conclusion: Embracing Grief and Connection

In the final segments, Rajan offers a poignant message about the inevitability of loss and the importance of cherishing moments with loved ones. He encourages listeners to proactively engage with their relationships to minimize future regrets, highlighting the transformative power of sharing and understanding grief.

• Amol Rajan: "If you have kids, you can't just leave. You can't say, 'You want to do this program on BBC1,' because it involves six weeks away from my children. I can't do that." [20:38]

The episode concludes with a mutual appreciation between Laing and Rajan, celebrating the strength found in vulnerability and the enduring importance of genuine human connections.

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Notable Quotes

• Amol Rajan: "Grief is something you can't understand until it happens." [33:21]
• Amol Rajan: "True freedom and belonging and happiness comes from connection without a doubt." [09:51]
• Amol Rajan: "There's something about being interconnected and having a thick, interwoven connection with other people, which is everything." [09:03]
• Jamie Laing: "I'm so with you. We are disconnected, mate." [09:12]
• Amol Rajan: "Availing time with your parents is top priority because it's arrogance to think they'll be around forever." [14:00]

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Great Company offers a raw and unfiltered look into the complexities of grief and the vital importance of nurturing meaningful relationships. Through Amol Rajan's candid storytelling and Jamie Laing's compassionate listening, listeners gain invaluable insights into navigating life's most challenging emotional landscapes.

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• Website: GreatCompanyMPoProductions.co.uk
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Transcript

[Amal Rajan]

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[Jamie Laing]

It's not you, it's us.

[Amal Rajan]

Actually, it is you. Endless onboarding, constant IT bottlenecks.

[Jamie Laing]

We've had enough.

[Amal Rajan]

We need a platform that just gets us.

[Jamie Laing]

And to be honest, we've met someone new.

[Amal Rajan]

They're called Monday.com and it was love at first onboarding. Their beautiful dashboards, their customizable workflows got us floating on a digital cloud nine.

[Jamie Laing]

So no hard feelings, but we're moving on.

[Amal Rajan]

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[Jemima]

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[Jamie Laing]

Hello everyone. My name is Jamie Laing and this is great company. Well, hello.

[Producer Jemima]

Oh God.

[Jamie Laing]

Oh, she's lowering my volume.

[Producer Jemima]

Can you say that again? That absolutely killed my ears.

[Jamie Laing]

Well, hello, hello, hello. Can we be honest today?

[Producer Jemima]

Oh, no. What are you gonna be honest about? You're gonna be honest about my face? Listener. I'm glad you're a listener and not a viewer because I have an eye infection and My face, I don't know what's happened to. My hair's puffed up and I look like Quasimodo. I had to tell. Had to forewarn Jamie before I came in and was like, so we're gonna record tomorrow.

[Jamie Laing]

Just a heads up.

[Producer Jemima]

I look like I live in a bell tower.

[Amal Rajan]

You do.

[Jamie Laing]

And what is even sweeter, we just had a meeting with someone else.

[Producer Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And I think you emailed them as well because they. Because they mentioned that you had emailed them in our meeting. Some stranger. Some stranger you had emailed.

[Producer Jemima]

I was like, yeah, yeah. Yes. Still on for the meeting tomorrow. Just a heads up.

[Jamie Laing]

My eyes kind of funky. I don't know why.

[Producer Jemima]

Face is half puffed up. And then also just now, before coming down, I had had a meeting with jb, someone else in the office. And he said, have you got five minutes for me? I was like, yeah, Just a heads up. I look like, yeah. He didn't go on any calls yesterday. I was like, no one can see me.

[Jamie Laing]

Well, listen, I'm gonna be. You look still look beautiful, so don't you worry.

[Producer Jemima]

Thanks, guys, but yeah, this is real face for Radio Face Today.

[Jamie Laing]

Well, if someone's just tuning in, we should probably say, as always, who we are. My name is Jamie. I'm the host of this podcast and you are?

[Producer Jemima]

I'm producer Jemima and I produce the podcast.

[Jamie Laing]

You do produce the podcast. Amongst other podcasts. By the way, I want to say congratulations, Paloma Faith.

[Producer Jemima]

Thanks.

[Jamie Laing]

It's looking amazing. If you haven't listened to another one of our jampot shows, Paloma Faith, Mad, Sad, Bad. That is produced by also Jemima. Today is really exciting because we have Amal Rajan coming into the studio.

[Producer Jemima]

I'm excited for AMOL because he is a very established and well known broadcaster, but he also presents quite often the Today program on Radio 4. And I love his voice. Yeah, he's my favorite presenter, but he's also University Challenge.

[Jamie Laing]

He's the host of University Challenge. He was the editor of The Independent At 29 years old, which is incredibly young. I've met Amal a few times now, and every single time I've ever had a conversation with him, I've always gone, man, I would love to extend this because some people love talking to other people. They love it. I love it. And when I meet someone else who also loves it, it's like this Armageddon of just excitement. And every time I've been with Amal, it's been like that. He's not only interested in Talking about himself, but also interested in the other person. And he's interviewed the likes of Bill Gates or he did Philip Schofield's first inter you when all the sort of scandal had come out. He's quite ruthless, but he's also incredibly kind. He asked the right questions, but knows when to draw back. Super smart. Has this amazing story about his parents, of how hard they worked. And so he has this huge admiration for hard work, but in the right way. Yeah, he's very upsettingly, you know, recently lost his father. And so I'm really interested to understand about that space as well. Yeah, not for any reason of my own. Just I feel like grief hits us in different ways and I'm interested to understand that.

[Producer Jemima]

Yeah, I think it's going to be a really great episode.

[Jamie Laing]

I cannot wait for today's episode, so please enjoy it. Remember, if you haven't checked out our social media channels at Great Company Podcast, you can. You can email us as well. Greatcompanympoproductions.co.uk we're also on YouTube, so if you want to watch us, you can watch us there. Okay. You ready for this?

[Producer Jemima]

I'm very ready.

[Jamie Laing]

Enjoy this episode of Great Company with Amal Rajan.

[Amal Rajan]

I'm Amal Rajan, and I really am Great Company. I really did want PJ to be doing this, man. She was.

[Jamie Laing]

So we're gonna start. Is this where we're gonna start?

[Amal Rajan]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Let's just be honest, okay?

[Amal Rajan]

That chat that she did with you, she got some juice out of you, man. I listened to it last week where PJ producer Jemima interviews you, and she asked some deep questions, man. Deep questions. And you were talking about therapy and depersonalization and not wanting to be forgotten. And I thought, O God, I know, Jamie. Now I feel like I know. Anyway, sorry. But yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

You. You have like a core group of mates.

[Amal Rajan]

Unbelievably close.

[Jamie Laing]

Unbelievably close. That you kind of grew up with it, or just you. You love each other. You guys talk to each other. You ask how you are big time 100, right? And you say, how are you as mates? Typically, men don't really do that. And that resonated with me so much. So much, because I remember there was a point in my life, right? And maybe I told you this, maybe I didn't. Anyway, it was sort of draw during, like in between that lockdown period or. And we. I went around to a friend's house and there was a group of us. We still now chat on a WhatsApp group. And we were sitting there and we're having some drinks, and it was just like five, six guys. And I suddenly said, guys, we should get vulnerable. Come on, let's. Let's talk about. Let's actually talk about something. Like, let's not talk about football or business or whatever. Just let's be vulnerable. And they went, all right. I went, does anyone ever feel lonely? Do you feel lonely? And one by one, yeah, man, I do. My friend went, do you know what makes me really jealous? My little brother, who is 16 years old, he plays on, like, Call of Duty every single night. And he has on his screens all his mates and they just chat. I wish I could do that with mates.

[Amal Rajan]

That sounds so good. And also that way of making gaming something that's a bit social. I mean, there's risks and downsides or whatever, but I think that idea that gaming isn't just this solitary loner kind of in the game. Like, my son is kind of, who's eight and about to be nine. I mean, mate, I don't know about you when you got video games as a kid, but I swear, they get them so young these days, man. I got a snare as a Super Nintendo Entertainment System.

[Jamie Laing]

Let's go.

[Amal Rajan]

When I was like, 50. Let's go. Remember that? Donkey Kong Jr. Mario Kart, 8 to this day, I swear down, I would do the fastest lap at Ghost Valley won.

[Jamie Laing]

No, you wouldn't. There's not a. I swear to God. My Mario Kart was unbelievable, mate.

[Amal Rajan]

My Mario Kart would take you out of town. My Mario Kart would actually. It would actually. Do you know what, it would actually be bad for the brand and the business, and I wouldn't want to do that. But I swear I got that when I was like, 14 or something. And these days at school, they get games so much younger, like Nintendo Switch when they're like five. And I just think that's wrong. So you kind of got this challenge as a parent, and I'm a parent many times over now you've got to change. Like, are you going to kind of roll with it? Are you? Or are you going to put up a big fight? You got to choose your battles. And I sort of think you got a gaming. The people who are running the world these days, people in AI, like this guy Demis Hassabis, who's a amazing British guy, founded DeepMind or Elon Musk. The way they relax is video games. And I feel like in our lifetime, video games have gone from being seen as this kind of like, Indulgence, where, you know, it's for weirdos to being. Actually, it's what the smartest people in the world do. So I'm all about embracing it.

[Jamie Laing]

But do you think we're disconnected? Do you think. Because there is a part of me that feels that we are, like, a little bit disconnected at the moment. Not even a little bit. We are disconnected, mate.

[Amal Rajan]

The evidence is there. Like, there is a massive global loneliness epidemic. And for people who are our age, roughly, or a bit young, in their 20s, there is amazing, terrifying evidence that people are not forming relationships. And the only. You know, if you look at when this has happened, and it's like sexual relationships, it's lasting relationships, it's marriage, which is in very steep decline. And it's happened over the same period exactly as the rise of the Internet. And you. You know, it's maybe a bit much to say you can show a direct cause, but I can't think what else it would be. I mean, maybe there's a general cultural feeling that you should be freer for longer, but actually, I think that. I mean, it's gonna make me sound very traditional.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay.

[Amal Rajan]

But I think true freedom and belonging and happiness comes from connection without a doubt. And that means commitment without a doubt.

[Jamie Laing]

By the way, because they did. I saw this amazing TED Talk where there was a guy who spoke about a social experiment that happened over 100 years. You probably know this better than me, right? Which is a social experiment to understand happiness. Right. And so they followed something like 718 people across 100 years. So one of the longest social experiments that ever happened, because typically funding runs out, people die, people get bored, all that kind of jargon, right. And they followed these different groups of people. Some were. Some became athletes, some became presidents, some became businessmen, some became alcoholics, some became drug addicts, some people went to prison, some people didn't. It was a whole mixture of different people. And they. Every two years, they checked in on them. They checked on what their lives were like, what their connections were like, what they were doing as a job, their bank balance, their brains, everything they did for 100 years. And what they worked out at the end of the social experiment is what the sort of causes happiness isn't fame and power and wealth and things you think it is the people with the strongest connections between family and friends, they were the happiest.

[Amal Rajan]

And often those would be people who are really connected to their neighborhood. You know, for most of human history. For most of human history, people lived in really small groups. 150 people like tribes would be like your local group of 100 or 150 people. And now because of the Internet, we think we're connected. I mean, you are connected. You've got this enormous following. You're connected to this group of a million people. But the connections, it's different. It's different, it's different. And there's something about being interconnected and having a thick, interwoven connection with other people, which is everything. And I feel like as you go through your life, it's the thing you've got to work hardest on, and especially with your mates, you know, if you're lucky enough to have a family, if you're maybe looking after old people, the thing that goes is your health and your social life and, you know, especially if you're kind of in your 30s or 40s, if you're working hard, and I really believe in hard work, if you're working hard, the thing you dial up massively is a hard work and family, and it's your mates that go. And I realized the other day I was. You know, I realized as I came home from work the other day, I was feeling really down and a bit sleep deprived. Deprived. I've got a lot going on at work. It was the anniversary of my dad's death, and that was probably the trigger. And I realized I just miss my mates, man. I miss being young and free and chatting to my mates about any old stuff, and yet being vulnerable with them. Because you can do that, you can do that with your family, but it's different with your mates.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you have a moment in your memory where you can remember that moment when you're with your buddies and life was just no money, no responsibilities, no nothing, but it was just like that moment where you couldn't be happier.

[Amal Rajan]

I had that for years, man. I mean, I do know one big genuine worry I have is that. I mean, it's deep, but one big worry I have is that I just. I just preferred being.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, that's why Peter Pan is my. That's. Peter Pan is my hero.

[Amal Rajan]

It was so good.

[Jamie Laing]

It was great.

[Amal Rajan]

It was so good. And, you know, when you're young, you're kind of.

[Jamie Laing]

But that's responsibility free. Right? That's why we enjoyed it.

[Amal Rajan]

Yeah. And there's a different kind of. There's a kind of existential satisfaction. I mean, nothing feels as fulfilling as being embedded in a family. That's kind of like going through life, you know, being a dad and crucially, being a husband and a brother and a son, that is Profoundly fulfilling. It connects you to, like, bigger ideas in a wonderful way. But I'll tell you what else is good, is like jumping off boats when you're 18 and a bit pissed. I love that, man. And I did it for years as well, man. I did it for you. And you know, I had such a good time. And you know what, I was nice about it as well. Like, me and my mates, we didn't hurt anyone, we didn't harm anyone. We just had such a good time listening to music and like channeling that probably a bit of the spirit that you had in Made in Chelsea. That's sort of. Well, what mattered was like, who you. Who are you gonna meet today? Yeah, who are you gonna link up with?

[Jamie Laing]

It was the best.

[Amal Rajan]

Yeah. Where are you gonna, where's your next drink gonna come from?

[Jamie Laing]

I remember though, I have like some memories, but I was, I remember I was in South America and I was like traveling with buddies and we had no phone, no nothing. It was. I was like 18, 19 at the time.

[Amal Rajan]

Talk about connected. You must have felt so close to them.

[Jamie Laing]

Anyway, we were waiting for our bus and we took buses everywhere, like 15, 20 hour buses. And I was sitting there and I was looking at my friends and they were kicking a football round in the dirt and I was like, man, heaven that is, this is. And I remember I couldn't, I couldn't remember a time.

[Amal Rajan]

I was like, I know.

[Jamie Laing]

What is this feeling?

[Amal Rajan]

I know. Isn't the danger though that you end up just trying to recreate that? I had. I went on holiday to Nice and there's something about Nice, which is a kind of rich place, you know, beautiful. That was Captain and Jean Le Pan and Cannes and all that. I went there as like a. An 18 year old and then again in my 20s. And I think basically I'm just trying to recreate it and I think that's. I think that's dangerous, man. Because the other thing, if you have kids, I mean, one of the things about having kids is like, if you're fortunate enough for it to work out because everyone can, and if you've got the financial circumstances to make it happen, if you have kids, you know, that's a long period of your life where you basically give up a huge amount and it's cool and it's important and God, I'm so blessed. But like, I miss those holidays with mates, man, and I actually, even now, so I come up with a little kind of annual plan and things that I often get very excited about. I want to try and get time away with my wife without kids, and that's no insult to them. And then maybe just one weekend with my mates. And I'm like, what would you do? Do you know what? It's changed. Back in the day, it would be like, let's get a massive house and have like a, you know, three days of a lot of fun. Now it's like we're kind of plotting for kind of like. We're like, maybe we should go somewhere where we can go for like a 10k run and then go to the park and then go to that. We're like, oh, my God, we are so old.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you think they'll have a backgammon board? Because that'd be great.

[Amal Rajan]

That'd be great. We could take cards and play poker and sit by the fire. That'd be amazing. Oh, man, it's changed. But you know that quality time with mates is the thing that goes. It's the thing I'm desperate to get back.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you think we spend too much time on, like, couples and romance at the expense of friendships?

[Amal Rajan]

I think that successful, happy life is one that kind of turns the dial up and down on different things at different points. You know, me and my wife have got four healthy children, which is to win the lottery four times is, I mean, wouldn't even come close to what we've got. And we went through years of horrific IVF and, you know, what do you mean, horrific ivf?

[Jamie Laing]

And as you fold your arms and.

[Amal Rajan]

Get closed off, I worry about the idea that a lot of people think that you can delay having kids because IVF is like this fallback option. And IVF is a near miracle technology. It's an amazing thing and it's a wonderful thing, but it doesn't work for everyone. And I really think it's important, especially for your listeners who are maybe in that period of their lives where they're thinking about having children, to realize that it doesn't work for everyone. And it's a lot of heartache. And the thing about IVF is if you knew it was going to be all right at the end because you're gonna end up with four kids, it'll be fine. But as you're going through it, it's awful because you don't know how it's going to end up. And as a. Even as I say this, it's incredibly important for people to realize that it's unfair, as life is unfair, because the physical hell is mostly born by the woman who's often having to, you know, have injections, who's going through all sorts of cycles, hormonal fluctuations, and it's awful. And it's all about this one end result, where you want a pregnancy test which says you're pregnant, and if it doesn't work, it's horrendous. And the whole time that I was editor of the Independent, which is a wonderful job I got to do with my very late 20s and 30s, I had this kind of secret life where kind of I was trying to run a newspaper, turn a business round, be a good boss, be a good journalist, be a good leader. But at the same time, I was just. My heart was hurting because we're going through ivf, and in the end it worked and it worked out for our children. And I feel so incredibly blessed. But, you know, if you're thinking about that, if you're embarking on it, and if people want to talk to me about it, I'd happily talk to anyone for hours about it. But it's. It doesn't always work and it's painful along the way.

[Jamie Laing]

Just talk me through that journey quickly. For just. How does IVF work?

[Amal Rajan]

IVF is basically conception outside of the womb. So you have to extract the eggs. So, and to extract the eggs, you have to sort of, as it were, pump up the ovaries. And then there's an invasive procedure where you get lots of eggs out, hopefully, if you're lucky, but sometimes you don't get many eggs out, and then, you know, you have the man's sperm who provides a sample, and then you mix them in a petri dish and you hope that you create embryos and they develop over a few days, and if they develop strongly enough to day three and day five, where I think they're called a blastocyst, you then having, again, the lining of the uterus, you implant them and hope that they'll take and you become pregnant. And, you know, you got to. Therefore, you've got to extract the eggs. The conception's got to work. And then once you put the fertilized embryo back, it's got to take. And that requires extraordinary amounts of things to go right.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

And each of those processes can last for months. And in those periods, it's like three months of like, is our life going to go down this path or is it going to go down this path? Are you asking this partner? Because you're thinking about all this? Because it's front of mind for yourself? Because. Yeah, I mean, you spoke to PJ very honestly about it.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, I talk a lot recently on the show about like kids, right? Because generalizing. But most of us have a blueprint. We want this, this and this, and this is what we think it's going to be. And my blueprint was different. Right. I kind of, as I got older, thought like, I was gonna have kids and have a family. And then that shifted in my mind and I thought, I'm not gonna have kids. I'm not gonna have family. I'm not gonna find someone that I love and fall in love with. I'm just gonna go and have fun for the rest of my life. And I was in this sort of like dopamine, like craving period where I didn't want to stop having fun forever. Then I met Sophie. And Sophie kind of changed that all for me.

[Amal Rajan]

And she really wants to have kids.

[Jamie Laing]

She really wants to have kids. And I had an internal battle that I never told her that. I was like, I don't think I want to do this. I never told her that. Just kept quiet.

[Amal Rajan]

Because you thought you'd lose the relationship.

[Jamie Laing]

Because I was scared of the reaction. I probably knew that, yeah, if, if I had told her the truth, then the relationship wouldn't happen. So I was having this secret battle within myself. And every single time kids were spoken about, I would like, my whole anxiety would go up.

[Amal Rajan]

And I left the restaurant.

[Jamie Laing]

I left the restaurant.

[Amal Rajan]

I can't listen. I listen to this podcast. I mean, and PJ got that. I thought that was so moving. I thought, yeah. And I thought my. That is deep, man.

[Jamie Laing]

Even worse than that. I was with her sister who is just pregnant and my brother in law and her, and I had to leave. Yeah. Like I said, I just gotta leave. Guys. I'm so scared. I have always lived my life where I run businesses and different things, but there's always a. There's always an eject button. There's always a way out. Kids. There is not kids. You won't tell me about it. You're locked in, right? And that for me is a really terrifying prospect.

[Amal Rajan]

You know, I'm mindful some people listening to this won't have, you know, will be unlucky and won't be able to have kids. But it is, I mean, I think.

[Jamie Laing]

I also don't know if I can, you know, I'm 36. Like, we blame it on. That's the wrong way to put it, but typically we think, we think it's called the women's voice.

[Amal Rajan]

Male infertility is a huge thing. Huge thing. It's a huge thing. And for years I was thinking, you know, is it. Is the problem me? I'll tell you what, though. It's. I listened to what you were saying about all this with PJ just before Christmas, and I've got to say, I think you're right to. I think your analysis, which is that if you're going to do it, you've got to be so committed and you've got to say almost like, I mean, maybe you should write it down. Maybe it's in a letter to Sophie or something or an email to yourself. I, Jamie Lang, want this because you are going to be tested. Like, mate. And, you know, if you do parenting.

[Jamie Laing]

Give me more of that. Like, what do you mean?

[Amal Rajan]

Oh, extreme sustained. It's not tiredness. I haven't slept for eight years. Right. It's extreme sustained sleep deprivation. It's no longer about you. You're not the most important person anymore. Who gives a fuck what you think? Frankly, it's like, does this baby need me now? Yes. And therefore you give up everything for that baby. You can't leave. And also, you can't just leave it up to Sophie, you know, And I hope it all works out for you guys. You can't. You can't just be like, you know, someone says, come to Paris for the weekend. No, you can't. Someone says, you want to do this program on BBC1, which. With an audience of 8 million people. No, you can't. You know why? Because it involves six weeks away from my children. Can't do that. By the way, these are first world problems. I have turned down a lot of things that if I didn't have kids, I would definitely have said yes to. And it's hard because I've actually got this. I mean, I'm having.

[Jamie Laing]

It's also a workaholic.

[Amal Rajan]

Well, I believe in work, but, I mean, I'm a workaholic, but I work harder at my relationships than I do in my career and that's changed over time. Right? So, like, I, I have a, A annual plan. It's got about 150 things on it, but the top, like a hundred of the people in my life, including my mates. And like, with each of them, I've got a little plan. My wife, I want to do this, this and this for her.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow.

[Amal Rajan]

I mean, you got to do that. It's so much more important. I really think there's two types of wealth, okay? There's material wealth, which is money.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

And when you're young, you're obsessed with it. And there's moral wealth, which is love. And I know so many super rich people who've got all the material wealth in the world and don't have any moral love, and they sacrifice that moral wealth, that love, for the pursuit of money. And as I get older, look, I do want more money. And you know what? I think it's fine to want more money. I want to, I'm going to earn that legally. You know, I respect so much someone like you. I've come here to the heart of, you know, Jam Pot Productions, and I think, my God, Jamie's built a business that's incredible. The risks you must have taken. You've got to chat to investors. You're going to make that Friday night phone call when you want to be with your mates down the old Brompton Road and someone says, actually, Jamie, why are you not delivering these returns? I've got so much respect for that. But as you get older, you realize what matters. It sounds so trite. I don't care. What matters is love. And I think that one of the things about working hard is that you work really hard when you're young, hopefully so that you don't have to work so hard later on. I mean, maybe you're at that kind of intersection, but I'm at a stage where I want to work really hard. But I know there's something more important than that. And I am, yeah, I'm giving up things. I'm sort of saying no to things that I really want to do.

[Jamie Laing]

Can we talk about your dance?

[Amal Rajan]

Yeah, man.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm, I'm a big believer of wearing your heart on your sleeve. Your relationship with your dad is so thick for you, right in, in so many incredible ways.

[Amal Rajan]

And it's the story that I told myself about myself. And when that story goes, you gotta tell yourself a new story. And that's really hard when you're 38, as I was when he died. My dad, the thing about it was that was so shocking, I didn't think he was gonna die. I, I, he was 76, annoying, had that slightly kind of elder sort of tedious thing where he hated medicine and doctors. And he had type 2 diabetes. And out of nowhere he got pneumonia and he went in and he went into intensive care for five weeks. And it was the worst five weeks of my life. And at the end, it looked like he was getting a bit better. It was a time of omicron, so he couldn't visit. And that was the thing that was so hard about it. And suddenly all of the crap for five weeks, the infections, he was Getting the tubes, the pipes. His kidneys weren't working and it was all too much. He had a catastrophic heart attack back. And if I'm honest, you know, that was three years ago last week. It's still really, really raw, you know. And last Friday I went to the place in Chiswick in West London where I first came in this. I was born in India and lived in Chiswick from the age of three to seven. I went with my mum and we looked at this house and we talked about all the memories of being there and it was incredible. And then I went back to Tooting and there's. Which is where my parents house is, South London. And there's just a picture of my dad and he's smiling and there's something about that which I just. It kills me, man, it kills me. And you know, my dad was, you know, I think we'd nowadays probably medicalize it and say he was depressed for years. He was a downbeat guy, an introvert. But there's something about when someone is your dad and they're a downbeat person and you have kind of private access to them smiling. There's something about when they smile at you. It's so overwhelming. And yeah, I went to pieces. And if I'm honest, you know, it's a weird thing to know how blessed and how lucky you are. You know, I've won the lottery so many times in my life and all the big things, I'm paid really well, I have a fantastic job and yet to feel in a bit of a funk. And I was so unprepared for grief and I've been in such a pit of grief for such a long time and one of the things that I really want to do by talking about it is, is to tell other people that this is coming. Your parents are going to die, man, and it's going to be. You think it's going to be bad, it's going to be a million times worse than you think it's going to be and you have to get ready for it.

[Jamie Laing]

I don't think I'm prepared for that.

[Amal Rajan]

You can't prepare for it, but the one thing you can do, which I know you've talked about a bit, is you can make sure that you minimize the regret. And what do you mean by that? Well, you say the things you need to say. A couple of years ago, before my dad died, I decided to go on a little walk with my dad and I asked him some really basic questions. You know, dad, are you happy with how things have turned out. Do you feel like the sacrifices you and mum made in coming to this country? You know, he was 41, the age I am now, when he ripped himself away from kind of everything that was familiar and beloved, you know, do you feel it came out? And, you know, my dad didn't say, you know what, son, I'm proud of you, and it was absolutely justified. But he kind of intimated that, and I'm so glad I did that walk. And there are certain places I wanted to go with him. You know, I've got a son called Winston. Me and my dad were both very interested in Churchill. I really wanted to go to the house in Kent where Churchill spent most of his life with him. I didn't get to do that. And so if there are things that you want to do with your parents and you're lucky enough to have your parents around, you've got to do those things. They are top priority because, you know, it's the height of arrogance to think your parents will be around forever. But, yeah, I've been in a complete funk, really, for three years. And people see, don't they? They see. They see kind of you. They see you on University Challenge, they hear you on the Today program or on a podcast, and they see he's a pretty upbeat guy. And what they don't see is that internally, you're trying to write a new story. You're trying to kind of tell yourself that this is why you do it. And you're trying to tell yourself what there is to live for in the absence of your dad. And I don't mean by that that I thought about ending my life and I've been suicidal. And by the way, when we talk about suicide, you've got to be so careful, because there's this thing called the copycat effect, and you never talk about details and all that sort of thing. But I have talked to myself and thought a huge amount in the last few years about death. And I don't mean by that that I ever, ever came close, even considered ending my own life. I've never been suicidal, never taken action of any kind. And if people listening to this right now are suicidal, they are thinking about it. They're thinking a bit obsessively about it. Please, please talk to someone, because the damage you would do to all the people you love by doing something terrible is awful. And reach out to me, honestly, message me on whatever, Instagram, wherever, and I will talk to you about it, because it's just so important, to be honest. But I had after my dad died, started thinking about death, and there was a very particular moment. I was presenting the Today program from Southampton, staying some minor hotel, and had to walk through the dark. 3:45 in the morning. And I walked over a railway bridge, and I did just think, you know, if I died because a train hit me, I might be reunited with my dad. And so in all these kind of fundamental ways, grief is so profound, it changes you.

[Jamie Laing]

Firstly, thank you so much for sharing that, dude. Because like I said, I know how heavy it must be and all those things, but I think it is also release in certain ways. But when you talk about that moment when you're walking to the bridge and you're thinking, right, I could just do this because I can then be close to my dad. Are you. Are you scared to. Because, firstly, it's okay, right, to, like, have those real dark thoughts.

[Amal Rajan]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Are you scared to admit that to yourself, or is that the actual truth?

[Amal Rajan]

Well, I. My wife is so amazing. I spoke to her a lot about it. And, you know, when you've got kind of, you know, the useful distraction of four wonderful young children, you. I know in my heart I'm never gonna. I've got so much I want to do, man. I've got. So I'm. I've got such a zest for life. There's so much just experiences, so I would never have seriously thought about it. But, you know, when my dad died, I dreamt about him every single night for about eight or nine months. I would go to bed thinking, I'm gonna dream about my dad. I dream about my dad. It was always the same dream. I was there as a child in India with lots and lots of different trains because I've got to think about Indian trains. And then I would wake up and I'd be like, oh, he's dead. And, you know, the regularity with which. You know, it's amazing, the mind, the subconscious. The regularity with which I thought about him was scary, actually. And I wasn't getting over it. And I had some counseling, and counseling's not for everyone. It didn't work for me.

[Jamie Laing]

Why? Because you just didn't want to, I think.

[Amal Rajan]

I don't know. I mean, I had a good counselor. There's nothing wrong with her. It was good. I just. I think you've got to be. I think there's just a certain amount of work the time has to do. You know, Time is a healer. You know, if people listening to this are going through grief, I'd say you've got it There's a thing that. Johnny Bestow, the England cricketer.

[Jamie Laing]

Right.

[Amal Rajan]

I get all my moral tips from cricket players. Johnny Bestows, absolute legend, amazing guy. His dad died by suicide when Johnny Bearstow was 8. He talked about how when you're going through grief, he said, you just got to keep putting one foot in front of the other. Just keep. Just keep buggering on, as Churchill said. And I sort of feel like people need to know that time will change things. It will soften the grief. It will change. It will stop being so raw. You know, you might suddenly go five hours of a day without thinking about that person. You might suddenly go to bed, wake up, and not have dreamt about him. I remember the first time I woke up and thought, oh, my God, I've not dreamt about Dad. I must be moving on. But also, grief can come back from anywhere. It could be a little trigger. Like, my dad was the only person I've ever met because he was an old Indian man who used a shoehorn. You know, when you could put. You like to get. So you don't doubt. Because he was so poor growing up, he thought if you get a pair of shoes from Marks and Spencer, it's like £25 back in the days, like, you don't want to mess up the thing, so you use a shoehorn. And I went to his.

[Jamie Laing]

Such a beautiful image.

[Amal Rajan]

Old Indian men, my dad's generation loved the shoehorn because they didn't want to, you know, they wanted the shoe to last. My dad was so proud if he got a shoe from Marks and Spencer. And, like, it lasted for like 15 years. And, like, I mean, I feel ashamed. I get traders all the time. I mean, and so street grief is like. It can come back from anywhere. And also grief is this weird thing in that it's completely universal. You're going to go through it and, you know, God, I hope we can talk when you do. But it's also particular, you know, every particular. Every grief is a grief for a particular relationship. And so you. You can't prepare for it. But the thing that you got to do if you've got the relationship with your dad that I had, where my dad was kind of my story, you know, he was born into extreme poverty, gave up everything, everything. Came to this country, dreamt that his children would do well. And I wanted to make him proud. And when the person that you want to make proud is dead, you've got to work out why you get up in the morning and I'm sort of doing that, you know, I'm actively doing it now, partly coming here, talking to such an inspirational dude. It's. It's all the same, you know, I'm trying to work out what it's all about. And I do know the answer. You know, I know about the meaning of life and I know why I live. But it's. It's hard work.

[Jamie Laing]

I think, as guys, we have it quite a lot, and of course, women have. But I think I definitely fall into that sort of category where I'm a fixer trying to fix things the whole time. And I think you probably do, too. You could fix it. I'll do that. I'll sort that out. No, I'll do that. I can do that. I can do that. Whatever. And when you can't fix something, that's very hard. And then when you're not distracting yourself and you're sitting in that place, which is grief, and you don't know how. And also you can prepare yourself to do that leg spinball. You can prepare yourself to be an energy. You can pay yourself to be a broadcaster. You can prepare those things. And I think you are. You prepare yourself into everything that you do. You listen to this podcast, probably because you were new coming on and you listened to it and things like that. You can't prepare yourself for grief.

[Amal Rajan]

No.

[Jamie Laing]

Because that's an emotion you can't understand until it happens.

[Amal Rajan]

And also, you can't work harder at it with. With, you know, playing cricket or being a broadcaster or whatever. You can work really hard. And that. Hard work, hard work gives you confidence. Grief is not like that. It's not something where you're like, you know what? Today, you know what? It's. It's Tuesday morning. I think what I'll do, I'll go and chat to Jamie and I work really hard at my grief. He's like, no, no. You look at a shoehorn or a comb. My dad, such an irony. My dad, bald as anything, always combed his hair. Combed his hair at the side. It's like, it's not that much hair, especially at the top. It's like, why are you combing your hair, dude? It's like, you haven't got any hair. If you. I mean, or maybe you do, but that's a hell of a parting you've got there, you know, but you comb it down the side. And who do you know that's got a haircut? I mean, I don't know. I've never known anyone that's got a comb. And I went to his top drawer Last week, last Friday, it was a third anniversary. I looked at this picture of him and I cried my guts out. And I went to his room and there's a little kind of devotional prayer area, which is we often have in Indian heritage. And I opened his drawer, which I've not dared to look at, and there was a shoehorn and it killed me. And a comb. And I just remember thinking, why did he comb his hair? You know, he didn't have any hair, you know. And I'm like, yeah, you can't. You can't work at that, man. You can work at everything else. You can work at building a company, you can work at being a better conversationalist, you can work at everything. But, yeah, grief, you just got to let time do its thing, I think.

[Jamie Laing]

Did you say goodbye to him?

[Amal Rajan]

No. And the thing that. One of the things that upsets me most is that, yeah, there's five weeks where, yeah, because it was Covid and Omicron and so many people who had ill relatives in that period, particularly elderly relatives, will know visiting times were like, really screwed up. So you had to like book it in with this. There's this wonderful nurse who was like just. He had like an iPad schedule and you get to talk to him on an iPad. And he. Because he went into a coma, he never really came round, so he didn't really get to talk to him. And he moved to this other ward. And I remember saying to my son, watching some God awful tv, I remember saying to my son, by the way, Granddad's getting better. And my son was on some. He was in a bit of a chat box and he was ranting about something and as I said this, he just stopped and went, yes, and tell you, that meant so much to me, man. That really meant so much to me. Because in that moment I knew that he had a relationship with my dad. And yeah, just sucks that after that he didn't get to get to see him. And the funeral itself, even more painful than the day he died. There's a famous poem called Elegy written in the country churchyard, which I can do mostly by, mostly verbatim. It's all about the kind of nobility and brilliance of the poor. And I can do it verbatim. And I always wanted to make sure I delivered it without having to look at the notes. But on the day I just went to complete pieces. And in a way, that was when I said goodbye, when I kind of read this poem to him.

[Jamie Laing]

What is the poem? So I'm getting like this is oh, mate.

[Amal Rajan]

The poem is Thomas Gray. And at Stoke Poges in Buckinghamshire, which is in a churchyard, Thomas Gray, this is the mid 18th century, looks at all these gravestones. And he basically does this long poem where he talks about how history shouldn't forget the bravery and the brilliance of these people. I mean, I could do it from the top. One or two particularly important stanzas, he goes, let not ambition mock their useful toil, Their homely joys and destiny obscure, Nor grandeur here with a disdainful smile. The short and simple annals of the poor, the boast of heraldry, the pomp of power and all that beauty, all that wealth ever gave, await to, like the inevitable hour, the paths of glory lead back to the grave. And there's a particular stanza where my dad. The story of my dad's life, which is why it's so ironic that I present University Challenge. So my dad was a genius. He was, like, off the scale clever and. But my dad was so. He's one of 11 children. He had six sisters, and he was extraordinarily clever. He's the only one of the 11 that left India. But he couldn't pursue his academic ambitions because he had to get his sisters married. You know, this is 60s and 70s India. And so he asked his father if he could pursue a, you know, further study. His father slapped him around quite a bit and said, you've got to get your sisters married. But there's a very particular stanza which is the most important to me where he talked about chilled penury, because chilled penury, like extreme poverty, stopped him doing what he wanted and stopped him pursuing knowledge with a capital K. And there's a stanza in Gray's Elegy where he says, but knowledge, to their eyes, her ample page, rich with the spoils of time, never did unroll chill Pinuri repressed their noble rage and froze the genial current of the soul. And that idea, that one stanza combines the knowledge with a capital K and chill penury. And, you know, I would have just loved to University Challenge, which I am so proud to do, is about knowledge with a capital K. And that pursuit of knowledge, which brought him halfway across the world because he wanted his kids to get a great education. That's what University Challenge embodies. And so I feel that by presenting that program, which I would, you know, work really hard at, I want to do really well, want to do for a long time, if I'm lucky, I feel like I kind of fulfilled some of his sacrifice. And yet he wasn't there to see it. And that sucks, man.

[Jamie Laing]

Man, thank you for sharing that, dude, Honestly. Again. Ah, man.

[Amal Rajan]

Mate, thank you for bringing out your. I'm rambling, man. Are you kidding me?

[Jamie Laing]

Keep rambling. Are you kidding? This is everything. But, but it's so, it's beautiful, right? That, that firstly, it's so beautiful that you have that relationship with your father. Like, I would try that, man. Like, are you kidding me? For, for so many years in my 20s, I just, like, I just ignore my parents and I was just a dickhead and I just, you know, I miss Christmases because I wanted to do more fun things and I just didn't do anything.

[Amal Rajan]

And you still got time, man.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, I know, but.

[Amal Rajan]

Still got time, you know, repair it.

[Jamie Laing]

But, but I, but I now realize this family is just everything. It's, it's, it's, it's completely everything in so many beautiful ways. And I think anyone listening, just take note, right? Because I can't remember who we were chatting to, but someone said life a little bit at the moment feels temporary at this age. Like, my parents were invincible. Exactly 10 years ago, they were invincible.

[Amal Rajan]

They're like these enormous trees in the forest. When they're growing up, they're huge.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

And then suddenly you're like, oh, they're gonna go, mate, your parents are gonna.

[Jamie Laing]

I know. And that for me. And it feels, it feels temporary enough for whatever reason.

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[Amal Rajan]

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[Jamie Laing]

You said you're not religious?

[Amal Rajan]

No.

[Jamie Laing]

But then that moment, going back to moment, the bridge, thinking, I'll be next to my father, that's sort of contradictory towards.

[Amal Rajan]

So I feel I understood in that moment. So I grew up. I'm from a Hindu family. My. My parents are pretty religious. They weren't sort of evangelical, but they're, you know, Hindus. And as I get older, I realize something different and profound, which is that I think that religion seems to answer enduring human needs in a way that secular traditions struggle to. And I think that those are about things bigger than ourselves. It's about the idea of kind of bowing down and showing piety in the face of these awesome forces. If there's anything that religion should teach us about being human is that something fundamental about being human is that we love to believe so strongly in these massive, consoling narratives, these grand kind of fictions, these stories about things bigger than us, and we go to wars for them, we make sacrifices for them, we move across the world for them. And I, as a kind of, you know, modern secular atheist kind of thinking maybe the religious imagination has got something on us.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. But also, I think that idea of hope is like, I don't know again, if I'm religious. But, you know, recently, to get a little bit here, I've been kneeling at my bed and praying. Yeah, I'm not kidding you.

[Amal Rajan]

What have you been praying for, by the way, pj, am I allowed to ask Jamie questions? Cause every time I ask him questions, he's like, don't do this flip. I do care about you, man.

[Jamie Laing]

You can ask me anything you want. Ask me.

[Amal Rajan]

So why are you praying?

[Jamie Laing]

Why am I praying? Good question. Why am I praying?

[Amal Rajan]

Do you do it randomly or just sort of.

[Jamie Laing]

I got into this whole process of just thanking. I said it in my interview with Jemima. I'm quite scared of my brain sometimes, pj. Sorry? I'm scared of my brain sometimes because my brain works in a way where it's. It's. It's like an engine going, going, going, going, going. When it does go flat for whatever because it becomes tired or, you know, and I've had anxious periods in my life that have been pretty overwhelming, so I get scared it's going to go back there. So I've been getting. And as my workloads got higher, my responsibilities have got higher and needs have got higher, my brain is becoming more and more in that place. And so I, I, I probably pray that it's going to be okay in my head.

[Amal Rajan]

Is it, is it prayer? Is it meditation? Because taking a moment, it's prayer.

[Jamie Laing]

It's not meditation, meditation. I, I do. Oh, I try to do and I do that. I used to. Okay, I'll tell you, I used to, I used to try and man, I think I'm a natural manifest. Right. And I believe in manifestation in lots of ways. And I used to sort of ask for my podcast do well or my business to do well or me to be more popular or whatever it was. Right. Real, real sort of like selfish needs and, but, but what I realize I actually am seeking is just being content.

[Amal Rajan]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And so now what I pray for is that my family and my friends and I am just going to be happy and content. And that will also encompass everything else that I want. Right. Because then you're just content.

[Amal Rajan]

Can I invite you to the civil war in my head right now, which you've just started all over again, which is like maybe you, you, it's not you achievable. Maybe you have a bigger and fuller life by being discontent. Maybe it's like the striving. Maybe it's like, maybe the. So I worry that. Look at my life. It's amazing. I'm so, look at me. I mean, I've won, I've won the lottery meeting my wife. I won the lottery meeting my mates. I won the lottery of each, my kid. I won the lottery four times. I've got amazing jobs. But I want to strive. I want to keep striving, man.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

I don't want to be content. No.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm sorry. So let me, let me rephrase. I don't, I don't want to. I agree with you, by the way.

[Amal Rajan]

You want to grow, don't you?

[Jamie Laing]

Totally. But I don't want to. If you, if, if you want more money, you're never going to be satisfied. If you want more cars, if you want more women, men, whatever, you're never gonna be satisfied. I think what I'm trying and you do so much help for, for young kids, that sort of philanthropic attitude and, and doing more Those kind of things. And that's kind of the space that I want to get into and be more content with where I am.

[Amal Rajan]

Am.

[Jamie Laing]

But also still striving. I want to achieve a lot.

[Amal Rajan]

Yeah, but.

[Jamie Laing]

But also it's. It's okay, you know, I'm okay. I'm not. Who am I trying to prove? Who am I trying to. You know, my dad loves me now, you know, not now. He always has. So. Friends are good, family good, team are good, you know, it's good.

[Amal Rajan]

So have you straightened it out with your dad?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was on me, which I realized now, which I've never said.

[Amal Rajan]

So if I called you tomorrow and so, Jamie, I'm really sorry, but dad's got cancer and he's got three months to live. What would you do?

[Jamie Laing]

Got me. I would probably say to him, I have. I have huge guilt towards my dad.

[Amal Rajan]

Well, mate, you've still got time to fix things, you know? You've still got time to fix things. You know, you've won the lottery, right? Listening to you and seeing how you feel about it, like, it's obviously incredibly important. That guilt that you feel towards your dad is obviously a very big part of how you think about your relationship with him. Let me just. From. From my pocket. Let me just take out this absolutely amazing gift I've got for you. Here it is. I've got this gift. Look on the table. It's called time with your dad.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

There it is. Right. You've got it. You've got it. Most people don't have that time with their dad. Yeah, you've got it.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. And the reason why I had that is because I sort of had a narrative in my. Look, my parents got divorced.

[Amal Rajan]

And you've still come to understand that as you get older.

[Jamie Laing]

And I think that I. Jesus Christ. I've never spoken about this. What the hell's going on?

[Amal Rajan]

Well, maybe he's going to listen to.

[Jamie Laing]

This and I hope he doesn't, because. Yeah, yeah. I don't know, but I feel guilt because I blamed him for a lot. It wasn't his fault.

[Amal Rajan]

Maybe it was his fault.

[Jamie Laing]

It wasn't as much as I thought it was. And, you know, I said things and.

[Amal Rajan]

Yeah, you said sorry to him.

[Jamie Laing]

No, no, I said I love him.

[Amal Rajan]

Why have you not said sorry to him? Mate, do it, man. If you think. If. Hang on. It's got to be sincere. It's got to be.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm so sorry because. Because it would be admitting to myself that I was just a Bit of an idiot for a long time.

[Amal Rajan]

You just admitted it to me.

[Jamie Laing]

I know, but it's easier. Don't know why.

[Amal Rajan]

The fact that it's easier makes it even more important. You do it to your dad. Listen, if you are. If you do feel guilt and you feel you want to say sorry to your dad, what an amazing conversation to have. And I can tell you, mate, that thing where I said you got. He's got three months to live, I'm afraid. How old's your dad?

[Jamie Laing]

74.

[Amal Rajan]

Right. One of the things about grief and death is old age is like the sun in the solar system of old age, of diseases. Right. If you're 74, you're gonna get something at some point. I really hope he's around for 20 years. I hope he's fit, healthy. There's no dementia outside.

[Jamie Laing]

And he's a brilliant. And he's.

[Amal Rajan]

What?

[Jamie Laing]

I didn't realize that was so deep in me. I didn't. He is like a magical human. Like, I spoke before I spoke to you. I said I was interviewing you and he watched you last night. He was watching you and he said that he was just proud.

[Amal Rajan]

Yeah. We should call him. I won't ask you to do that when you're crying. I could. You want me to call him at some point?

[Jamie Laing]

I don't think I could do that.

[Amal Rajan]

I think maybe there's a conversation that was in me.

[Jamie Laing]

All the therapy I've done. What the hell's going on? Never let that out. That's crazy.

[Amal Rajan]

I think there's maybe a conversation that you and your dad want to have at some point. Mate. What a beautiful thing. I think it's a wonderful.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

How. How. What a. I mean, mate, you've just won the lottery because you realize that while you still got the chance to do something about it.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. Yeah. Which is a. Which is. It's a. It's a beautiful thing.

[Amal Rajan]

He could get up. He could get a heart attack like that today. He's 74.

[Jamie Laing]

My grandfather died around. That's sort of similar age.

[Amal Rajan]

Well, what a spur to action. What an amazing, amazing. How's your relationship with your mum?

[Jamie Laing]

My relationship?

[Amal Rajan]

See her on Instagram.

[Jamie Laing]

She's great. She's fine. She. And she's. She's a. She's a bulldog and she's like, you know, she's just strong and she'll live to 200. I think, like, honestly, she's fine. But. But it's.

[Amal Rajan]

It's.

[Jamie Laing]

I think what happens when parents get divorced, like, this is my experience is as kids You're. You're confused, and so you probably blame an individual when you. It takes two to tango. Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And of course, I was very much a mummy's boy, Right. And so you lean towards the mum's side and then as you get older, you go, you know, to blame a parent when you don't understand it and you don't. And my dad has never. My dad has never spoken any ill about my mom or ever.

[Amal Rajan]

What a hero.

[Jamie Laing]

Never.

[Amal Rajan]

I bet there's a moment. I got it. Be so wonderful to talk to him about it. I bet there's a moment.

[Jamie Laing]

Jeez, I want to speak this.

[Amal Rajan]

I bet there's a moment when he decided. I mean, if that's the case, what you say is true, as I'm sure it is, he would have made that decision at a time when he was hurting. I mean, I've never met your dad, but I tell you what, he's got a moral depth to him there that's immediate and obvious. And I just think, what a thing, man. I mean, what a thing. If anyone listening to this, if you've got the chance to chat to your parents before they go about the stuff that matters, do it. Because I tell you, I mean, you said this. You said this in your chat with pj. Towards the end, when you're talking about how it's like, it was with the girl that you didn't kiss.

[Jamie Laing]

Oh, yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

And then you were like, I should have just. I should have just kissed her. Yeah, I should have just kissed her. Because the regret later, what happened? You didn't kiss her.

[Jamie Laing]

I didn't kiss her. And then it was my.

[Amal Rajan]

So you told yourself. She's like, what are you doing? I'm just gonna kiss together.

[Jamie Laing]

It's my metaphor for life, though, right? My metaphor for life. Like, and I've always lived by this. Is that the regret I felt by not kissing her? I was like, what was I. I was fearing rejection, failure, all these different things, and it would have been over with, and who would get. So I thought, well, I'm never gonna. I'm never. I don't want to ever regret something I've never done, so I'm gonna go and try and do everything.

[Amal Rajan]

But the conversation with your dad is like a billion times more important than not kissing that girl. Who, by the way, I feel sorry for her, man. She missed out on a kiss from Jamie Lag. A young Jamie was ready to smooch over, and they'd be queuing up for that now, as you know.

[Jamie Laing]

I didn't Realize that was within me, really. And when you said, see, you were. You're a true broadcaster in so many ways. And you. And you understand people and you can. And you're empathetic. And you get it. You've interviewed a lot of people. I mean, Bill Gates, Djokovic, Philip Schofield, you know, in difficult times, nobody.

[Amal Rajan]

But, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a few stories behind that. You know what I mean?

[Jamie Laing]

In difficult times. But being so empathetic and being so understanding. But then do you have to wear that hat of a journalist when you have to ask those questions? Because knowing you, and like I do, I. You, you, that would be hard for you.

[Amal Rajan]

And it's. For some people, it's like. It's. To ask the aggressive question comes more naturally. But one role of journalism is to apply scrutiny, and that's incredibly important. And the more powerful the person, the more you've got to do that. And that's a cool thing that journalists do, and doing it in difficult circumstances. So when Philip Schofield walked in, right? So that interview. Oh, man, it was at this hotel. He walked in. I've never met him before. He is shaking like a leaf. Doesn't even capture it, by the way. He is rake thin. Rake thin, like, like beyond gaunt. His daughter is with him. He's got bruised, calloused hands from where he's holding his vape so hard. And he comes and sits down and he just starts shaking. He just starts shaking. He's just, like, shaking, shaking, shaking, shaking, shaking. I'm like, God, I'm not sure we can do this, guys. And then, you know, he kind of calms down a little bit. And I try and put him at ease, but, you know, I had to ask him some really hard questions, and I wanted to ask him if he was toxic. So there's one point where we're talking about, you know, suicide and other very heavy things. And I said to him, are you toxic? And afterwards he was like, God, you're tough, aren't you? And I thought, I've got to be seen to ask the difficult questions, and I've got to be seen to be empathetic. And it's quite a difficult thing to do both at the same time. But that's the job, and you got to do it. That was a crazy experience. Can I tell you what happened with Djokovic?

[Jamie Laing]

Apparently, he's more intense than.

[Amal Rajan]

He's the most intense person you've ever met. He is the best there has ever been at the thing he does. The intensity of his gaze, it's like a beam. And when it clocks onto you, he doesn't blink. And he's in the zone. And he said to me afterwards, he kind of apologized. I'm sorry, I was nervous. I treated it like a wounded final. And he turns on the charm. He's got to speak six languages. And I had to ask him some really, really tough questions. But the crazy thing is I did it in a state of complete emotional disrepair because just a few days before had been my dad's funeral, funeral. And I was in pieces all the way over to Belgrade. I was thinking, I'm feeling anxious as hell, man. I'm feeling really anxious. And I've had this thing in my life, you know, I've. I've get panic attacks to do with claustrophobia and I've had a few major claustrophobic panic attacks and I do associate them a bit with hotel rooms. And all the way over there on the flight, I'm getting more and more and more and more anxious. And you know what I did? I saw the team and I had a few drinks because I was so anxious. And it's a 6am call, so we have to be at the hotel 6am the next morning and I just lost it completely. And we're at a hotel which is at the top of a shopping mall in central Belgrade. And I'm having a full on panic, losing my rag. And I will never forget in the bar, in the room, there's like this kind of little Serbian, like peach snaps sort of thing, like brandy thing. And I had. It's probably got three shots in it and I had that. And I was desperately waiting for it to make me feel better. And I didn't. I had a feeling, oh my God, it didn't. And I was just going crazier and crazier and crazier to try and calm down. I went for a walk. I'm wandering around a Belgian, a Serbian shopping mall in Belgrade in my dressing gown, absolutely drunk. And the thing that cracked it for me is the amazing. So I work with this, this incredible producer, Elizabeth Needham Bennett, the best producer in the history of BBC News. And she just told me to fix up and she said, go to your bedroom, sleep, you're gonna be fine. And you know what, if you don't sleep, you're also going to be fine.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

And something about that. She's such an amazing person. Something about that gave me the confidence to let go. I did sleep. I felt completely, obviously sober, bit jittery about my dad, but Completely. So when we did it and it happened. But I mean, it's amazing to think if you'd have seen me a few hours before, you'd have thought that is not, not a leading BBC broadcaster fit to do this interview.

[Jamie Laing]

Who is the hardest person you've had to interview?

[Amal Rajan]

Richard Branson was pretty tough.

[Jamie Laing]

Why?

[Amal Rajan]

Because I had to ask him some pretty awkward questions. But that was difficult. And you know when you're doing an interview and you're building up to the really difficult questions.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. You're just thinking about that the whole way through.

[Amal Rajan]

The whole way through. I'm talking about this, that and the other and all the way out there. God, I'm gonna have to ask if he's a. This, that and the other. And then I said, by the way, on your tax affairs. Oh, my God, that was. Oh, that was. That was tough. But the thing that's great about interviews is people will surprise you. I mean, I had to ask Bill Gates some really tough things about affairs and about, you know, staff and all that. But people surprise you. Greta Thunberg. People think Greta Thunberg is this really severe, intense 19 year old. We just had a giggle. She's so funny. She's so funny. I mean, it's, you know, she's complicated and I'm sure a lot's going on and she's got Asperger's, but. Yeah, I love the interviews that surprise you. That's a really fun stuff for me.

[Jamie Laing]

This has been. You saw my emotion. Like, this has been. Been. I knew it was going to be. I said, I said to the team, I said how good it was going to be and it's just. Yeah, it's been amazing. I swear, my love, I'm not saying. I promise you. I swear to God, I knew it would be amazing.

[Amal Rajan]

I've got one. Just one. Don't you.

[Jamie Laing]

I've got eight questions for you.

[Amal Rajan]

I'm gonna do so fast. I. Don't you just love proving people wrong who thought you were just a posh prick?

[Jamie Laing]

A little bit. Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

When I first saw you and Spencer on screen.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

I thought you must be the emptiest vessels this side of Chelsea Pierce, but.

[Jamie Laing]

I probably was a little. No, I wasn't.

[Amal Rajan]

And I'd say hand on heart. And I. I'm not just saying because I'm here and you can feel free to cut this out. The more I found out about you and Spencer. I mean, this is Spencer, by the way, a guy who runs through deserts, you know, I mean, ridiculous. More I found about what you've done, businesses you've built, things you've done for people, the reputation you have for the kindness you show, I think you are just so far, that's very good. From the Empty Vessel and Made in Chelsea. And I would, if I'd never met you, I would have thought you were that idiot. And I just like you are. You're so impressive. And it's like, I feel like maybe your career is a bit of a kind of. This thing launched you into the world and now you're proving to everyone that you aren't what you were then.

[Jamie Laing]

Anyway, I think, I think what I, I, I think if you take a shortcut in life, there's always a long road round. And that's what I've realized. I think anyone who's looking for a shortcut, you always have a burden afterwards. So I took that shortcut into the entertainment industry that I wanted to be in. But then you have to work your way around it. And I think it takes 10 years to build something, so it's taking me 10 years.

[Amal Rajan]

10 years?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, I think it takes 10 years. Okay, I've got eight questions for you. Ready for this?

[Amal Rajan]

Born ready, mate.

[Jamie Laing]

What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up?

[Amal Rajan]

Can I get a rewind? Any version of, kind of. Any version of rewind, yeah. You know, pull up the tune. Pull up the tune. If it's nice, play it twice. If you're in a dance, when someone says rewind the tune, that's when you're having a good time. Rewind.

[Jamie Laing]

Best compliment anyone's ever given you.

[Amal Rajan]

Oh, God. The deeper meaningful one is my dad saying he's proud of me. My mum's saying they're proud of me. Joe. The absolute honest answer is that when the Independent shot, I was the last editor, the print version of the Independent, and a couple of the old guys who'd been around since the 1980s said to me that I was the best editor they'd ever worked for. They'd worked for all of them. And that mattered to me a lot. Partly because the occasion was very sad. Hundreds of people losing their jobs. And I felt really awful about what they were all going through. And that made me feel like I'd done, you know, I'd been good to them and a decent editor. But also, you know, I was 29 when I got the job, so the fact that people who are in their 60s or 70s, I think, thought that I was up to it made me feel a sense of vindication.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, that's amazing. What scares you most about yourself?

[Amal Rajan]

The idea that I preferred being young. The idea that I preferred being young and fantasizing about the future than actually living that future out.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow. Wow. That's great.

[Amal Rajan]

Deep. Man.

[Jamie Laing]

That is unbelievable.

[Amal Rajan]

Pulled it from the recesses of my mind.

[Jamie Laing]

Pulled that out. That's unbelievable. I'm similar to that. When was the last time you cried? And why?

[Amal Rajan]

Oh, last Friday. Last Friday was the third anniversary of my dear dad's death and I was building up to it all day. But that damn picture of him smiling in that beautiful way of his in my parents house in Tooting. And I just lost it. I completely and utterly lost it. And yeah, it kind of felt good too.

[Jamie Laing]

What's something you can't let go of?

[Amal Rajan]

Youth.

[Jamie Laing]

What's your guilty pleasure?

[Amal Rajan]

You know if you're lucky enough to go to holiday in France and you go to the local bakery and they do a panachocat which is hot, right?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

This is disgusting. I cut the panachocat in half.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

And I turn it on its side so the chocolatey bit. Chocolatey bits are kind of facing the sky.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

And then I pour marmalade in so that you've got the, the color. Cuz chocolate.

[Jamie Laing]

Chocolate's not good enough.

[Amal Rajan]

Chocolate's not good. Chocolate orange is obviously the supreme. It's like tomato. Chocolate orange is the ultimate. Like Terry chocolate orange. Chocolate orange is the ultimate. I mean I was at years years as a restaurant. So I pour the marmalade in over the melting chocolate with a hot buttery thing and I am, look, I mean I know obviously present as very attractive guy. I'm a disgusting eater. I try and fit as much food in my mouth as possible. So what I do is I do that with a pain au chocolat with marmalade dripping through and I try and get as much. I slather it all over myself like the old.

[Jamie Laing]

Like a big Jaffa cake.

[Amal Rajan]

Massive Jaffa. I love a Jaffa.

[Jamie Laing]

What turns you off?

[Amal Rajan]

I hate so profoundly people that bully the so called little people. I judge people. You know, there's a. I'm swearing too much, but there's a phrase, you know, people who suck up and down. I judge. I'm very kind of moralistic as you probably tell. And I really respect people who are kind and generous to people who have no power over them. So people who kind of bully the little people and make an example of them, they're out, finished. They are canceled by me. Aggressive. I. I despise, despise bullying. But Especially to watch people who are powerless getting bullied by. I just can't bear it.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm so with you. What turns you on?

[Amal Rajan]

Well, the flip side of that is definitely people who are kind to people who need nothing from them. I was at a. I worked for a couple years on a Channel 5 program called the Right Stuff. And I. They'd send me off to the red carpet ca new weekday nights, and I did it. I don't know what the film was. Barry McGuigan, the boxer.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

Amazing guy. Was on the red carpet. It must have been a film about boxing, whatever. And you know what? He could see that I was on my own and I was talking to me and he just wandered up to me, said, you all right? And he had. I was like 23. I had nothing. I was just a prick on a red carpet. And I respect that so much, man.

[Jamie Laing]

I remember it.

[Amal Rajan]

And I was I. And if I met Barry, if you're listening now, I would search up, mate. Dinner is on me. I, I, I, I, I. I learned a lesson. I respect so much people who are kind to people who have nothing on them. That turns me on big time.

[Jamie Laing]

What do you like most about yourself?

[Amal Rajan]

My looks? My physique? My smell? No, I like I. You know what I like my. I'm proud of my generosity. If you ask the 30 people who know me best, like, kind of define a characterist. Say Moly. My mates call me Moly. Moly's the most generous person we know. I think they'd all say that. And it's a great one. I believe in it.

[Jamie Laing]

That's my thing. I'm very generous.

[Amal Rajan]

Well, PJ said you're very kind.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, final one. Your favourite swear word of it.

[Amal Rajan]

Favorite swear word. I'll see you next Tuesday, man. Am I allowed to.

[Jamie Laing]

I mean, you can say it if you want.

[Amal Rajan]

Can I say it here? You can say it.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

It's too much. Can I say it?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, go on.

[Amal Rajan]

Cunt.

[Jamie Laing]

There we go. Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

It feels so good. It's such a beautiful thing. What a word. I know so much in. And it's that. Oh, God. Sorry. Sorry, Mum. Oh, dear. I better not let my know I did this. My mom is gonna hate the fact that I said that, man.

[Jamie Laing]

Can I just say, man, this has been more than fantastic. I knew it was gonna be good, as I said before, but I didn't. I go to places I didn't think I was gonna go. I feel like we went. But that's just every single thing about this. And to be a Bit cheesy is great company. So I really appreciate it, man.

[Amal Rajan]

It's an honor to be here, man. Do you know what is the most fun thing? I. I love getting to know you a bit better and I like, I like, as I said, I like surprising people And I probably 15 years ago, I mean, not for long. I probably 15 years ago looked at you and Spencer and thought, those guys look like they're having a good time. I now get to know you and I think, what an amazing guy building a business.

[Jamie Laing]

Appreciate it.

[Amal Rajan]

Known for being kind and he's great company.

[Jamie Laing]

Thanks, man. I really appreciate it.

[Amal Rajan]

Thanks, brother. Oh, man, that was. That's so good. Oh, mate, sorry to make you cry, man.

[Jamie Laing]

I don't want to do that. Okay. Wow.

[Producer Jemima]

Wow. That went into places I don't know even if you expected them to go.

[Jamie Laing]

I didn't realize that. Yeah.

[Producer Jemima]

You had a lot in you.

[Jamie Laing]

A lot in me.

[Producer Jemima]

That was amazing. Thanks for sharing that.

[Jamie Laing]

Oh, well, it's because the space is in a great space to do that. Yeah. I mean, it was a lot got. He's just a great guy.

[Producer Jemima]

He's a great guy. I also, I think all of us crew all shed a tear.

[Jamie Laing]

Really?

[Producer Jemima]

Yeah.

[Amal Rajan]

Really? Yeah. Wow.

[Producer Jemima]

I definitely did. And I know Riley also has shed a little tear afterwards as well.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, there's something about, I don't know, something about. I suppose if I'm talking from a male point of view, men talking about dads and men and father, son relationship. Father, son relationship. There's something there. Just shout out to all parents because, yeah, you guys are legends and hopefully one day I'll get to experience that situation as well. But we really hope you enjoyed this episode. Well produced, Jemima. Thank you as always.

[Producer Jemima]

So after the recording. Yeah, straight away, Amal actually emailed me also. Can we just say I love how much he loves calling me pj. He's such a big fan of the show. I love that. But Amal emailed me and was like, I'm really sorry for making Jamie cry. And I was like, are you kidding? It's great. We love it.

[Jamie Laing]

We like it.

[Amal Rajan]

Jamie.

[Producer Jemima]

He loves it.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, it's. Yeah, I love it.

[Producer Jemima]

But he is honestly such a lovely, lovely man.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, he's a really great guy.

[Producer Jemima]

He's everything we wanted him to be.

[Jamie Laing]

He's a great guy. He. Amal, if you're listening, and I hope you are, thank you for just being epic.

[Producer Jemima]

Yeah. And next time I will interview you. PJ will interview. Although I'd be scared.

[Jamie Laing]

I think you'd be amazing interviewing him and you should do that. Guys. Thank you so much for tuning again. As always, please subscribe to the show. It does some amazing things for us.

[Amal Rajan]

Us.

[Jamie Laing]

And not only that, you can check us out on social media at GreatCompany podcast. We're on Tick Tock, Instagram and of course we're on YouTube as well. You can watch all of these interviews. We hope you enjoyed the episode and we can't wait to see you next week for another one. So until then, Great Company. Until then, we'll see you another episode. Another episode of Great Company.

[Jemima]

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[Amal Rajan]

Life skill to teach?

[Jemima]

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