BEL PRIESTLEY: TRANS WOMEN AREN'T THE PROBLEM

Summary

Podcast Summary: "BEL PRIESTLEY: TRANS WOMEN AREN'T THE PROBLEM"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Great Company with Jamie Laing
• Host/Author: Jampot Productions
• Episode Title: BEL PRIESTLEY: TRANS WOMEN AREN'T THE PROBLEM
• Release Date: May 20, 2025
• Description: No gimmicks; just Great Company. Join Jamie every Wednesday as he's joined by great guests for great conversation: it's GREAT COMPANY.

---

Introduction

The episode kicks off with a heartfelt introduction by the host, Jemima, who welcomes Belle Priestley, a young trans woman, actor, and TikToker known for her role in the Netflix series "Heartstopper." The conversation is set against the backdrop of a significant legal shift in the UK, where the Supreme Court has ruled that trans women are no longer recognized as biological women. This ruling has profound implications for trans individuals, particularly trans women like Belle.

---

Belle Priestley's Background

Belle Priestley, aged 21, shares her journey of self-discovery and the challenges she has faced as a trans woman. Starting her transition at 13, Belle discusses the emotional and social hurdles she encountered, including bullying, lack of support, and the impact of her parents' divorce on her journey. She emphasizes the importance of understanding and compassion in discussions about gender identity.

• Belle on Early Challenges ([16:06]):

  "My parents were together till I was 13, and then they divorced. Transitioning was a big shock for my dad because he struggled with me being trans."

---

Impact of the Supreme Court Ruling

The Supreme Court's decision has exacerbated existing challenges for trans women, affecting their legal status, access to spaces, and overall safety. Belle articulates the broader implications of this ruling, highlighting that it extends beyond personal identity to affect healthcare, employment, and everyday interactions.

• Belle on Legal Implications ([10:22]):

  "With this law, trans women aren't considered women, so it doesn't add up. Health care is getting harder, and people are following suit from the UK to other places like New Zealand."

---

Personal Experiences and Emotional Toll

Belle opens up about the emotional toll of public scrutiny and online harassment. She recounts moments of intense sadness and frustration, particularly after a viral TikTok video where she expressed her feelings about the ruling. Despite her public persona, Belle admits that her career and advocacy work contribute to her stress and low self-esteem.

• Belle on Emotional Struggles ([12:44]):

  "I've got no words to describe how I'm feeling because I'm so fed up with this situation."

---

Navigating Social Media and Public Perception

As one of the first trans voices on TikTok in the UK, Belle discusses the pressures of maintaining a positive narrative for her followers. She navigates the complexities of sharing personal experiences online while managing hate and misunderstandings from the public.

• Belle on Social Media Challenges ([13:10]):

  "I'm the first impression of a trans person to a lot of people, so how I act affects how people see trans women."

---

Coping Mechanisms and Support Systems

Belle emphasizes the importance of having a support system and finding a community that understands and accepts her. She reflects on her past experiences of isolation and bullying, advocating for the need for supportive environments both online and offline.

• Belle on Support Systems ([49:01]):

  "Having a support system is so important. You need to find your people in life who understand you and allow you to be yourself."

---

Challenges in Healthcare and Employment

The ruling has created significant barriers in healthcare access, with lengthy wait times for hormone treatments and the ability of GPs to deny necessary medical support. Belle also touches upon the precariousness of employment, particularly in spaces that now legally exclude trans women from being recognized as women.

• Belle on Healthcare Access ([30:42]):

  "With the NHS now, you can be waiting for seven years to get your first appointment for hormones, so most people go private because who's waiting seven years?"

---

Safety and Public Spaces

Belle expresses concerns about safety in public spaces, especially with the government's stance on gender identity. She highlights risks such as increased hate crimes and the potential for trans women to be harassed or attacked in spaces now legally restricted.

• Belle on Safety Concerns ([52:41]):

  "Trans women aren't the problem as men. Nothing's changed in terms of safety, but the law makes it worse by excluding us from protected spaces."

---

Defining Sex and Gender

A pivotal part of the conversation delves into the distinction between sex and gender. Belle explains that sex is not strictly binary and encompasses a range of biological variations, while gender is about personal identity and expression.

• Belle on Sex vs. Gender ([50:51]):

  "Sex is complicated with about 40 or 50 variations, while gender is how you identify and express yourself. I'm transgender, so I change genders. You can't change sex."

---

Dealing with Misogyny and Transphobia

Belle addresses the misconceptions and prejudices that fuel the exclusion of trans women from gender-specific spaces. She links this to broader societal issues like misogyny and the targeting of trans women as scapegoats for protecting women’s spaces.

• Belle on Misogyny ([52:41]):

  "It's a dangerous game. Excluding us from spaces doesn't protect women; it just increases hate and makes everyone less safe."

---

Coping with Public Scrutiny and Harassment

Despite her role as a public figure, Belle candidly discusses how online harassment and negative comments affect her mental health. She shares strategies for coping, such as limiting online exposure and focusing on supportive relationships.

• Belle on Handling Harassment ([49:01]):

  "Just ignore people because you can't win with someone. There's no point in valuing their opinion."

---

Hope and Advocacy

Towards the end of the conversation, Belle expresses hope for future progress and the importance of continued advocacy. She encourages listeners to support trans rights and to listen to voices that may differ from their own perspectives.

• Belle on Advocacy ([55:07]):

  "It's about all these kids that don't pass or are scared walking out and about because the government isn't recognizing their identity. This increases hate crimes."

---

Closing Thoughts and Final Questions

The episode concludes with a rapid-fire segment where Belle shares personal insights and lighter moments. She highlights her coping mechanisms, favorite sayings, and what she values most about herself, reinforcing her resilience and commitment to being a voice of hope for others.

• Belle on Personal Strength ([63:04]):

  "Probably I'm a good friend and a loyal friend. That's a good thing to have."

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Belle on Legal Implications ([10:22]):

  "With this law, trans women aren't considered women, so it doesn't add up. Health care is getting harder, and people are following suit from the UK to other places like New Zealand."

• Belle on Emotional Struggles ([12:44]):

  "I've got no words to describe how I'm feeling because I'm so fed up with this situation."

• Belle on Support Systems ([49:01]):

  "Having a support system is so important. You need to find your people in life who understand you and allow you to be yourself."

• Belle on Sex vs. Gender ([50:51]):

  "Sex is complicated with about 40 or 50 variations, while gender is how you identify and express yourself. I'm transgender, so I change genders. You can't change sex."

• Belle on Misogyny ([52:41]):

  "It's a dangerous game. Excluding us from spaces doesn't protect women; it just increases hate and makes everyone less safe."

---

Conclusion

Belle Priestley's candid and poignant discussion sheds light on the multifaceted challenges faced by trans women in the wake of restrictive legal changes. Her personal experiences, combined with her advocacy for understanding and acceptance, make this episode a crucial listen for anyone seeking to comprehend the real-life implications of such rulings. Belle's resilience and commitment to her community serve as an inspiring testament to the importance of inclusive dialogue and support.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisement segments and non-content sections, focusing solely on the meaningful discussions between Belle Priestley and Jemima. The quotes are selected to highlight key moments and themes throughout the episode.

Transcript

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[Jamie Lang]

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[Jemima]

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[Jemima]

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[Jamie Lang]

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[Jamie Lang]

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[Jemima]

Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Lang and this is great company. Well, hello, hello, hello.

[Belle Priestley]

Hi there.

[Jemima]

Hi there.

[Belle Priestley]

I again Y. Last week, obviously I started the show off. One, two.

[Jemima]

Yeah, yeah.

[Belle Priestley]

And then today I listened to that song again.

[Jemima]

Okay.

[Belle Priestley]

And the song is H o t T o. This is actually so embarrassing.

[Jemima]

And I was thinking as in chapel.

[Belle Priestley]

Roan, chapel run and I hot to go. And I was cycling in and I thought maybe we could do another.

[Jemima]

So you're gonna try and you're gonna.

[Belle Priestley]

Sing something and I think it could be.

[Jemima]

Do you know what we typically. We normally do before we do this is you plan this off mic and then you bring it to mic.

[Belle Priestley]

Yeah. This is just my musings coming out my gate.

[Jemima]

All right.

[Belle Priestley]

Where else would they be coming out? Brain my arse. Actually, quite a lot of these ideas do come out my ass. Right, you ready?

[Jemima]

Yes.

[Jamie Lang]

Pj.

[Belle Priestley]

PJ owls, let's go. Because I'm producer driver, you're presenter Jamie and You guys are our owls.

[Jamie Lang]

And I thought, oh, my God, maybe.

[Belle Priestley]

I won't do it in an intro, but maybe I'll just, like, call across the office when we come downstairs. I'll go, oi, pj, pj, owls, let's go.

[Jemima]

I thought he said crawl across the office.

[Belle Priestley]

We'll say crawl across the office.

[Jamie Lang]

Oh, my God.

[Jemima]

So that's what you want to do at the beginning.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Belle Priestley]

Or just see, I don't know.

[Jemima]

We're going to do it. Have we. Have we done it? Is that it?

[Belle Priestley]

I don't know.

[Jemima]

I feel like.

[Belle Priestley]

And immediately I'm sweating.

[Jemima]

Well, hey, listen.

[Belle Priestley]

Hi and welcome. My name's producer Jemima.

[Jemima]

This is Jemima. I'm Jamie, the host, by the way. I want to give you, Jemima a shout out quickly. Jemima also produces another show.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

Under our wonderful company Jampot. And it's Paloma Faith Show. Mad, Sad Bad. And you had a very big guest on that show, which I'm very jealous of.

[Belle Priestley]

A humongous guest. And it's out on the 3rd of June. So, guys, keep an eye out. We're back. Series two is back with, like, the most enormous bang.

[Jemima]

Can we tease who it is?

[Belle Priestley]

No. What's your tease gonna be? No, you're gonna quote something.

[Jemima]

No, I'm not gonna say who it is. Anyway, I'm just very proud of you, Jemima, because she was a big, big Hollywood A lister that doesn't learn it. That's it. That's enough. But anyway, ploeme Thay's show is launching on the 3rd of June. Very exciting. With a huge guest and it's coming back for series two. Cannot wait for that. Just. You're great. Hey, today's guest.

[Belle Priestley]

Oh, well, wonderful, you know. So our guest, Belle Priestley.

[Jemima]

Yes.

[Belle Priestley]

You know Belle. You've interviewed Belle before.

[Jemima]

I know Belle. I've interviewed Belle before. Belle is a trans woman. She's an actor. She's a tiktoker. She was in the Netflix series Heartstopper. And Belle is a really interesting person for so many reasons. She's. She's quite young. 21.

[Belle Priestley]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

But incredibly mature. Today's episode's kind of a really important one because the Supreme Court has ruled in the UK that trans women are no longer considered biological women. And so for someone like Belle, who her whole life has felt like a woman, now, according to law, she's not meant to feel that way. It's a really big topic. And if you're listening to this now, and you may agree with the points today and the thought process, you may not agree with them. You may be sit on the fence. It's a really important thing to understand and understand it from a point of view that perhaps you wouldn't hear from. So Bel has come on to discuss that with us.

[Belle Priestley]

Absolutely. And like what you're saying, just because it doesn't directly impact you, it does still impact you. Because the like issues for people who are being marginalized and being suppressed and voices being taken away, the implication of that is so much bigger.

[Jemima]

I think it's one of those things that we all feel a bit nervous to talk about if we're not going through it ourselves. We don't really know what we can say. We feel like we're maybe a bit clumsy at times.

[Belle Priestley]

But I think that's like a huge issue around it, is that people don't feel, because they're scared of saying the wrong thing and they're going to get told off, that they. They just go, well, I'm just not going to engage with it. And like I say, it's. It's important to engage with because it does affect us.

[Jemima]

It does. Completely. Okay, so should we go into this?

[Belle Priestley]

Yes.

[Jemima]

Right before we start as well. If you do like our podcast, our show, please subscribe to it. There's been a number of you that have subscribed, but there are lots of you listening now who also haven't subscribed already. And I can tell you this, it does us so many favors. If you click that button, I cannot tell you. So if you can do that, that would be amazing. You can follow us on social Media. We're on YouTube at GreatCompany Podcast and also you can send us an email. GreatCompanyamproductions.co.uk okay, you ready for this?

[Belle Priestley]

Let's go.

[Jemima]

Please enjoy this episode of Great Company with Belle Priestley.

[Jamie Lang]

Hi, I'm Belle Priestley and I'm in Great Company.

[Jemima]

Bell. So you're going on a date later?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, I'm. Yeah, I'm quite nervous. I'm back into the dating scene. On dates. I'm really awkward. Data.

[Jemima]

Let's role play it. Here we go.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay.

[Jemima]

Here we go. Right, so we're on a date. Okay. Right. Hey.

[Jamie Lang]

Hi.

[Jemima]

Good.

[Jamie Lang]

You're okay. How are you? Yeah, I'm good. Once I get past that point, I'm like, that'll be fine. I just. I've had like a. I'm just excited to get back into the. I have dating this absolute nightmare.

[Jemima]

Oh, really?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

What happened?

[Jamie Lang]

We just ended up being a bit Transphobic. About, like, eight months into the relationship. Yeah. It was so bad when the whole, like, women's only gym thing happened.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

He was saying, like, he was such a good thing, like, women claiming their spaces. I went, all right. And then also, I was at. It was like, International Women's Day.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And I was like, you know, he put in a story, like, celebrate your woman. Like, make her feel special. I thought, yeah, no tax, no call. And then I got. They got to end the day. And I was like, oh, like, hi, it's me. Hello. He was like, yeah, sorry. I didn't think. Think it applied to you because you're trans. Like, you know, it's just about celebrating, like, natural women. I went.

[Jemima]

We'Ve actually had a conversation before, you and I. Yeah. And it was great. And. And so with you today, I want to, like. I want to, like, pretend, almost pretend that conversation hasn't happened. So I want to start again of, like, who you are.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

For people who don't know, obviously, so many people know exactly who you are and. And also talk about your life. But also, look, I. I suppose from my side, I'm like a privileged, like, white male man.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

Yeah. And so it. You know, especially with the new law changes.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

It could be easier for me just to ignore it.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. I think that. Yeah. A lot of people are speaking up, which is nice.

[Jemima]

Which is really nice. And for me, like, I care about injustice. I care about if people are feeling suppressed. I care about that.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

But I also want to just make sure that if I say anything clumsy.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

Or I say anything stupid, we're friends.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

So you can just tell me to shut up or you can correct me or whatever it is.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

So that wasn't me crying.

[Jamie Lang]

That was a bubble in my throat. Yeah.

[Jemima]

Is that. Is that a deal?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, of course. 100%.

[Jemima]

Because there's a lot going on at the moment.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. No, it's intense. It's definitely been an interesting couple of weeks. And just it keeps unfolding, which is like the bit that is crazy.

[Jemima]

So should we. Why don't we hit. Before we understand who you are? Should we just hit the bullseye?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

Because the Supreme Court has basically.

[Jamie Lang]

They ruled that legally trans women are now seen as men, or so basically, trans men aren't women in the eyes of the law. But it was an act done by the Supreme Court, which the government didn't necessarily need to take. So the way I understand it is the government kind of, like, taken it as, like, they can act upon it how they want to. And I think it's kind of given the government leeway to do what they want now, which is to sort of like exclude trans women from certain spaces and so stuff, like toilets and stuff and women's changing rooms, etc. But it kind of becomes like it's one thing that everyone's talking about, which I think, which I think is important to mention. It's just kind of, it's kind of deep rooted misogyny because no one's talking about trans men, it's all about trans women. And it just means that it's going to become a lot of like, who looks the most feminine, who looks the most cis. Because there's a lot of women that don't look like, you know, I might look more CIS to like a CIS woman. Like it's, it's.

[Jemima]

And when you say cis, what do you mean by that?

[Jamie Lang]

Cis? Just like someone that's basically born the gender that they are. So it's. But also I love how online people are like, don't call me cis. It's like a word from. I think it's like a Latin word. It's been around for like thousands of years. Like no one's calling you a slur, like you're fine. So yeah, basically it just, it's gonna become a bit of a interesting situation.

[Jemima]

Right, because it's.

[Jamie Lang]

How do you police it?

[Jemima]

How do you police it? And the thing is, you're so right. It's interesting that you talk about misogyny there because no one is talking about trans. And so that's.

[Jamie Lang]

Then I know, then you say like, oh well, trans men will have to go into women's spaces. And then. And people like, no, obviously not like they're men. So it's like. But trans women aren't women because you're not letting them into women's spaces. So it doesn't really add up. And like health care is getting harder. Like it's just, it's going a bit. All bit downhill. And like also I think people are following suit from America and like, I think now New Zealand is now like following suit of other UK's doing. It's all just a bit like much.

[Jemima]

When I saw, I saw it and I was, I was pretty shocked right, by the whole thing because it feels like we've, we're kind of really progressive and we've taken steps back in a really sort of peculiar way. And then I saw your tick tock. Yeah, that you did. Which was.

[Jamie Lang]

I was really debating posting that. I think like it was Just my. I was actually going to an event and I was on the tube and I saw the ruling because I knew it was happening, but I didn't know. We obviously were waiting for the outcome. As my other friend, who was trans, we just both were kind of just in shock. And then I got to this event and, you know, you almost get more sad because you have to put on like a brave face. Oh, yeah, I'm fine, like, and I got to the toilet and I was like, no, I actually, like, I literally just, just burst out crying. And the video actually was from. I was explaining on my private story what was happening. And then I started, like, obviously I got quite upset and I think with this whole situation when I. When the whole, like, women's only gym thing happened, I did a big, like five minute video explaining. I wasn't emotional in it, I was explaining, like, statistically what's happening and, you know, what this means and whatever. And I got ridiculed anyway, so I actually don't have any words to like, describe how I'm feeling because I'm so fed up of this situation. And yeah, I posted. I mean, it was quite nearly 20 million views, which is like ridiculous.

[Jemima]

You post a video of basically you just looking incredibly emotional.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

And it was just writing across the screen, just explaining what you were feeling. And I saw it because obviously we follow each other and we know each other, but also it was trending number one.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. Which is scary.

[Jemima]

It is scary.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

And. And it's scary because what happens is, I suppose viewers then, then people look to you as a spokesperson and that's like a lot of pressure that maybe you do or don't want.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. I think, to be fair, since a young age I've kind of. I was one of the first sort of trans people on TikTok in the UK, to a certain degree, as I've always felt a pressure to kind of make sure that I'm explaining the right narrative. And I hold myself to such a high account because I know that I'm the first impression of like a trans person to a lot of people. So how I act is dependent. It will affect how people see trans women.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

So I've always been really careful of what I say and how I act. So it's. It does get scary when, as I get older, the more people see me and the more people watch, like, like nine too many people, what, like a third of the uk? It's crazy. That's terrifying.

[Jemima]

That's really terrifying. Look, I mean, also, I just, I think we should take a step back and understand, like, you as a person.

[Thumbtack]

Right.

[Jemima]

As well. Which I really want to know. And like, I already know it, but I think our listeners are gonna. Because you're. You've had a really pretty topsy turvy life.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jemima]

It's been not. So when you spoke about the fact that last year was a lot of.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

And you probably mentally went to maybe a dark place, I. By the way, I get that. Because I think throughout your life you've had to protect yourself.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

In lots of ways from bullying and everything. And I think. Same ways that I think a lot of us do, especially me, is that when you're in the firing line.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

You're just.

[Jamie Lang]

You've got the shield and you're working, you're busy and like you've got the next event and the next event and it's like you don't really have time to think about it.

[Jemima]

And slowly what happens is subconsciously it breaks you down. And then it's about three, four, maybe five, six months later. That's when it hits you.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

And you don't understand why you're feeling that way.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

And you're like, why do I feel anxious? Why do I feel sad? Why is my brain not working the way it is? It's because all of the historical things have happened. Hit you at once.

[Jamie Lang]

Exactly. Because that's what I found. Because I kind of. I got like. School was really rough and then I left school and then started social media and then it's. I mean, I'm only 20, I'm only 21, so it's like, I only left school, what, like four or five years ago?

[Jemima]

Where did you grow up, Bel?

[Jamie Lang]

I grew up in Leighton Buzzard, big up Buckinghamshire. I have to say that because it's close to Milton Keynes and I tell people Milton Keynes and they all give me like the dirtiest looks. I'm actually not from Milton Keynes. It's like down the road. Yeah. I grew up in, like, Buckinghamshire.

[Jemima]

Parents were together.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. My parents together till I was 13 and then they divorced. Yeah. Well, I was like, transitioning at the time. So, like, my parents, they were going to stay together Till I was 18. And then my dad, love him, like, love him to pieces now. But when I was younger, he found it really hard, me being trans. So just, I think it's a big shock. I think you can still love someone so much, but obviously you've. He's grown up. My dad's like a football guy. Like, he loves cricket. Cricket's like, not the most manly spot. Like, sorry, if you play cricket, I'm sure you loves cricket.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Don't let that, like, it's not exactly like. And so I think for him it was a big. It wasn't a shock because I think, you know, the closet was glass. But I think it was still a big thing for him to process. I think seeing his, like his son slowly become more feminine and wearing makeup, like, he found it really hard. So I think he knew that for me to sort of become who I wanted to be, he had to sort of take a step away, which meant he was. They were going to divorce anyway. They weren't. They weren't very happy, but they're going to do it after. So I left, like, went to uni or whatever. But that was sort of the timing I ended up being, which I had to do with that. And then also, like, obviously school, which was horrendous.

[Jemima]

Were you an only child?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. Do I give off only child energy?

[Jemima]

I don't think you do, actually. That's what I was like. I don't think you do. What is only child energy? Do we think the only mean. I say it because also if you're not only do. And look, I don't put words in your mouth. Right. But not only did you probably growing up feel alone in society. Right. But also not having any siblings around, that's also alone. You don't have anyone to communicate with or talk to apart from your parents.

[Jamie Lang]

I move schools a lot because I was. I was bullied since I was 5, so. But I'm so, like, desensitized to it, partly because I haven't processed it, I think.

[Jemima]

What do you mean? Just hang on. Just like, explain for someone who is sitting here like, listening to this right now. Right. Who. Because I want to. I want to go to the bad.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

Then I also want to flip to the good.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

To make sure. What do you mean you were bullied at five?

[Jamie Lang]

Well, I just. I was always. It got really bad in upper school, but when I was younger, I never really fit in because I also. I think looking back, it's quite sad, really. Looking back, I always wanted to be a girl. I think I just didn't have the word also. It wasn't a thing. This is why I get so angry at people when they say it should be taught in schools. It's because if that happened to me, like, if I knew about it in school, I'd be in such a different place to where I am now. But yeah, I think it was just a situation of like, didn't really fit in, didn't really want to do the boy things. The girls also was like, who the fuck is this bloke? Like, not leaving us alone. So it was kind of like I just was on my own a lot and then the boys were quite horrible to me. So I moved schools when I was seven, which is a bad time to move because then I joined a new school halfway through the sort of four year situation. And then no one wanted to be friends with me there because I was, I was like an odd kid. Not odd. I just didn't really fit in.

[Jemima]

You were confused as like an individual. Right. Which is like. And if you. Again, I don't want to put words in your mouth but it feels like if you're. As kids, we just want to fit in.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, that's all we want. That's the thing. I used to play football. Like I was a defender. I was cracking though. Do you know what, it's a real shame they banned us from all the sports because I really could have gone pro. Like, like, you know me in like the lionesses or something. Jill Scott marching down the pitch. Love the Lions. No, big up the reds. Yeah, don't know any football terminology, so don't catch me.

[Jemima]

But that's how. So you had to move school and just, just, just talk me through, just understand what the bullying was like. Was it just name calling?

[Jamie Lang]

What was it? Yeah, I think. Well, when I was younger it was just sort of name calling and not being allowed in like groups and stuff. So I got quite used to that, like. But it got really bad. I'd say when I came out as gay it was okay because I was still in a middle school.

[Jemima]

How old is that?

[Jamie Lang]

Like, so where I'm from it's like lower school, upper school, lower school, middle school, upper school. So it's like four different, like three different schools which, so I know a lot of people do it. So it's like year one to year six and year seven to 12. But mine was like year one to four, five to eight and then nine to 12 and my nine to my like upper school. That was really bad because I, I made friends in middle school and I was like, I was gay in camp and then I went to a bigger school, like double the size where it's like all these kids from like the local area we went to and obviously it was such a big shock to the system for them because I was really the only like out like gay kid in my area. Really.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Like, that was quite feminine anyway. Yeah. And then I'd say it was. I had friends in year nine, but then when I came out as trans, it was like. It was. Yeah, it was. It was just a lot like. It was.

[Jemima]

Do you find it hard to talk about?

[Jamie Lang]

I can talk about it. It's. It's just one of the situations. Like, it's the only way I can describe it. It was like this constant. Like, it was one of the situations where I was so, like, subhuman to everyone and. And it was like, anyone could do anything to me and it'd be fine. Like, even the teachers would, like, dead name me at school. And I used to always, like, argue to, like, be in the women's toilets. And I used to, like, go through, like, arguments with teachers all the time. And I had, like, my nudes leaked multiple times. People spat on me. Like, it was like. It was genuinely, like, the worst. And I also. I think this is what makes people, like, I never talk about it because I also don't want to sound like a sob story, but it's like, it was luckily, like, I don't know, Like, I didn't do anything crazy. But, yeah, like, it was horrendous. Like, so bad. Like, and people would. Like, I was. I didn't want to, like, be here. Like, it was horrendous. Like, it was just like, no, it's fine. It's not. Like, it's like, I'm happy. I'm fine now.

[Jemima]

I know you are. But also, like, it's. It's so, like, I can even almost, like, feel yourself, like, trying to defend yourself now because you feel like I. I wanted. Like, I. I almost want to. And this is so, like. I don't know what. I almost want to go to that younger person and, like, hug you and say, it's okay. And this is like, when you're in a situation like that and you're going through something so awful and you've already come out as gay, which is brave enough. Like, that is incredibly brave already, especially in an area that no one's come out as gay. And then you then want to transition as well, and you're going through that, and then you're going through all those things.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

You have every right to say that you were feeling shit. And it's not a sob story.

[Jamie Lang]

You.

[Jemima]

You. Are you kidding me? Like, 1 million percent. And you should almost just, like, accept that was a moment of time. But it's so scary when you're in that moment. You don't think there's an end to it.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. This is like what worries me now of kids like in school seeing the news because it's like they're going to think how I felt, which was like it's not going to get better. Which I'm lucky. Also, like, you know, a lot of my job aspirations happened and I'm very grateful, but I don't know where I'd be now if it wasn't for my career.

[Jemima]

I had Luke Evans on. Yeah, I don't know why I pointed that. He's not behind me. Yeah, we just got Luke Evans.

[Jamie Lang]

I think he's so cool.

[Jemima]

He's so cool. But he, when he was on the podcast, he, he experienced like terrible bullying but he knew that it was going to, there was an end to it. And I think sometimes when you're in a job or relationship or you're in a mental health situation, the hardest thing is to think this is going to pass. And you've got to always think that it's going to be okay. You just got to get through these moments.

[Jamie Lang]

I think also because it was like even my friends, it was that everyone around me.

[Jemima]

Your friends, turned on you.

[Jamie Lang]

Well, my friends wouldn't like I was seen as like, not like really like they didn't want to be near me. So I used to eat lunch by myself and like at prom I was like made to go by myself. Yeah. I remember my first non school uniform day as like a trans girl and I wore this. I was like, I saved all my money and my mum bought me this like really nice outfit. Oh, it's a toilet of too fair. Looking back, it was fucking shocking but like red clots. It was really bad. But I was like so happy and so like just whatever. I went to school and literally everyone mocked me the whole day. And my friendship group were like being really horrible and like just allowing it and yeah, it was bad. And even like one girl, my phone and this is like a few weeks after she went on my phone, found these like explicit pictures of me and like sent them to herself and then sent them around school like. And she was my friend in my friendship group and that like. Yeah, it was just. I think they looking now I'm older, I'm like maybe they just didn't want to be the ones who bullied. So maybe they were the ones like making sure that I constantly had things to like. It was like every week it was like a new thing that happened to me or like a new someone like would join the school and they wouldn't understand the situation would be horrible or like, you know. So I think maybe they just were like self defense, I don't know. But it was like it was not Sometimes just.

[Jemima]

I mean it feels just like kids are just assholes sometimes.

[Jamie Lang]

Kids are dicks. Yeah. And adults are as well to be.

[Jemima]

Because when you and I promise you we will get to the light bit. I promise.

[Jamie Lang]

I'm happy to talk about it. I never talk about it.

[Jemima]

For me it's so, so important. Firstly, I think for you it's important, but also I cannot tell you the amount of people that you are going to be helping by speaking about this and seeing the position you are in now and all the success you've had at such a young age, people are going to go, well, if she can do that, then I can do that.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

And that's what's so important. When you are younger and you are a boy but you feel like you're. What does that feel like?

[Jamie Lang]

For me it was never really. When you're young you can only put it into situations of like you want to hang out with the girls, you want to have long hair. You want. Because that's obviously what you don't. So you're just kind. You don't really know what's going on. Like you just want to be exactly what the girls are doing, who the girls are with and you don't really feel comfortable wearing boy clothes and do you want to play with girls things and that's how like it starts off. Well, that's how it started off with me anyway. Very simple things. But I think because it was so ingrained in me that I couldn't do that and I couldn't like whatever. You kind of put it to the back of your mind. Well, that's what I did anyway. Because I think that that just shows depends on your parents. Like I think some parents like oh yeah, you can do that. And I think that obviously opens up a broader conversation. But I think if you kind of push it away, it kind of. It went to the back of my head. And then for me when I, when I sort of found out what or being trans was, it was like how.

[Jemima]

Do you find that out?

[Jamie Lang]

It's just online. Like I didn't know what it was. I literally like I didn't know it was. It wasn't too like Monroe Bergdorf did like her like Piers Morgan GMB situation or this woman called like Nikita Dragon. She was like back in the Jeffree star days, I was like, like, like YouTube. YouTube. She was on I was like, uncle, this guy was so pretty. And they were talking about being in trans was like, oh, my God. She was, that's no way. And I came out straight away because it was like a sort of jigsaw. It's like a little puzzle piece. Like, finally. And I was like, this makes so much sense because I was doing away. Yeah. Straight away, like, to my parents, like, because, like, I was already wearing makeup and like. But it was never enough. Like, I always wanted to be a girl. And I was like, oh, my God, this makes so much sense. And then you look back and you, you sort of realize, oh, my God. Like, all them years of why I felt like this and why I felt like that and why that upsets me and why I don't like this, like, all kind of made sense. And it's like it was like a light bulb moment. I think it's brave of you to.

[Jemima]

Just suddenly come out with it because normally it's one of those.

[Jamie Lang]

Nothing else to really lose, to be honest.

[Jemima]

But that's what's. Yeah, you're so brave in those situations.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

Like, normally with the, the, the bullying and the thing that's going on that would make you go more and more into something not. But you, you're constantly. What it feels like is you're constantly trying to feel. Find yourself. You'll know your true self.

[Jamie Lang]

And I think, I think I'm still doing that now. I think, like, I think because I was online like three years into my transition or four years into my transition, and that's still so early on, I think it takes, it takes like a good like five, ten years to like, fully start to feel good.

[Jemima]

Explain that, explain that more to me because.

[Jamie Lang]

Well, first of all, especially when you're so young, you have to like, wait to get on hormones and then you have to, like, it takes years for hormones to like, properly start to, like, you see a difference. And then you have to get the site, like, I've had so much, so much work done since I last was on here, but you get like, people get like obviously facial feminization surgery or like their voice done or their boobs done or the bottom surgery. Like, it depends on the person. But to get all them processes done, it takes a long time. So it takes you a long time to feel like actually more like a woman, if that makes sense.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

It's not just like, this is when, when people slag off, like Jenna Mulvaney, for example, who like, shared her transition online from day one to however many now, and people like, well, she doesn't look like a woman. Like, when she was in, like, day 200. Like, well, she's not going to. She's transitioned from a man to a woman. Like, you're not gonna look like the fishiest, like, doll. And, like, that's terminology that you might not understand. Fish is like. Like, she looks like a CIS woman. And Dahl is like, what trans girls are called. I can't believe I'm having to explain that to you.

[Jemima]

That's so funny.

[Jamie Lang]

I said Fish Darwin.

[Jemima]

He was like, yeah, I was just. I was just still smiling at you.

[Jamie Lang]

Fish Dahl. Yeah. No, as in, you're not going to look. Because also, if you transition in, like, your 30s, you spent the last 30 years being a man, it's going to take a long time to. If you decided tomorrow that you're trans, for you to look and act and sound how you want to be and act like how you want to be and look how you want to be. It takes ages. It takes ages. It's not just going to, like, happen overnight. So I think this is what worries me. It's going to discourage people to come out with this whole law situation because I didn't use the female's bathroom until I was, like, 17, probably did, you know, because if I went out and I knew that I wasn't going to pass, I just would, like, put a hat on. Like, wear boy clothes. Like, I wouldn't, like, because you just. Because also, I was always like, I didn't want to. I don't want the stress of that happening.

[Jemima]

Of course you wouldn't.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

You sort of transitioned when you were 13.

[Jamie Lang]

Right.

[Jemima]

And so then that's this sort of process that you have to go through. Again, being naive. Is it expensive? Can you use the nhs? Do you have to go private? How does it all work?

[Jamie Lang]

So with the whole situation with the NHS now, it's different. Like, you can be waiting for, like, seven years to get your first appointment to go on hormones. So most people go private because it's just. I mean, who's waiting seven years of your life?

[Jemima]

There's a big thing I saw. Yeah, I saw a thing online where a doctor was asked about transitioning and doing sort of sex changes and things like that on the nhs. And he said it's a really beautiful thing because you can't understand the mental damage that is happening to women and men who don't have the ability to transition. And the suicide rate is so high that actually, would you rather someone take their own, their own life than actually feel comfortable in their own skin.

[Jamie Lang]

And also because now the government are telling GPS to not. If I went to the GP and said, can I get a blood test because I go private for my hormones, they're allowed to say no. Like they're allowed to pick because it basically the government are not condoning people transitioning. Really. And I think the same doctor that you're on about said that like the government are basically pushing this narrative, like not to basically help us with our transition. Like a lot of of trans women are getting their hormones denied to them. Which also if you've had the surgery, that's really not good because obviously you don't have any way of producing hormones. So you have to take artificial hormones to survive. So it's just a bit of like an interesting situation. But it takes like seven years. Now can I.

[Jemima]

So you started transitioning at 13 years old, you're now 21.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

So that has been eight years, is that right? Yeah, it has been eight years. It's been eight years. How do you feel in your skin now?

[Jamie Lang]

Do you know what? I think it's interesting because I think if I didn't do my job, I'd probably be a lot happier. Really with myself. Yeah, probably, yeah. I do get quite, I have quite bad low self esteem, I think just from like years of hate and stuff. No matter how I look, I'm always gonna get called a man or like say it. Like even I got my voice down. Like I get loads of comments saying, oh, she sounds fake, she sounds this, she sounds that. Like I was saying I'm so. Because I have such a sore throat. So I was coming, I was like, oh my God, I'm going to get ripped to shreds in this comment section because of the way I sound today. Even like the video that I posted recently, it has like 100,000 comments and I'd say probably like 80% of them are hate. I think I'd be a lot happier if I didn't do my job. But I think also I love my job. So it's not like I'm going to quit anytime soon.

[Jemima]

It's a lot.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, it's a lot.

[Jemima]

You have to remember that those people who are spending their time, oh yeah, they're absolute losers.

[Jamie Lang]

Don't worry. I knew that.

[Jemima]

You do know that, right? Yeah, exactly. It really is. And yeah, you do love your job. You're great at your job. What you do is brilliant.

[Jamie Lang]

But I think obviously because it's ingrained in me since I was like whenever I transitioned, like the way people treat me in school and then the way people treat me online, my brain's not gonna hold myself to like I'm obviously going to think that it's even. I know it's not personal. Like I know the situation, but I think I always put so much pressure on myself to look a certain way or act a certain way because people are going to come and whatever. So you kind of hold yourself to a higher regard.

[Jemima]

You said there was a time when it got really dark.

[Jamie Lang]

I've talked about it before, but I think when I was like 18, 19 was really rough. Not last year. Before that it was really bad. I had like issues of like alcohol and other things and I had like really bad friendships and I was in a really bad place. This is before I got heartstoppers. This is like probably six months before I did the original interview with you. Yeah, it was really, it was really bad.

[Jemima]

And probably drinking a lot, partying a lot.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. Every night. Yeah. When I was. I can talk about this, but I'm not going to go in detail. Like when I was 18 at a festival, like.

[Jemima]

Anything you say we can always. We don't have to put in. It's, it's.

[Jamie Lang]

I spoke about it online but like when I was 18 at Reading, I got my like first time wasn't consensual and I was jogged. So I then spent like a year. This is after everything happened at school and stuff. I was like just had left college so. And I was getting like a lot of hate online. So I. I'm so sorry by the.

[Jemima]

Way, if you want to cry. I cry on this the whole time.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

So you can let it all out. Don't worry.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, crying is the big thing.

[Jemima]

Can we get some tissues because you crying. Listen, crying.

[Jamie Lang]

Thank you so much, much.

[Jemima]

I cry all the time when they show this. I mean you can't even imagine. I'm so sorry.

[Jamie Lang]

No, it's. It's fine. So I, Yeah, I just like that was like a big self esteem thing and it kind of like I just drank away my problems for a long time. Yeah. And then I had like issues with friendship groups and I was in this group that I used to live with and then they kind of all quite horrible. So it's literally on my own. And yeah, it was really like some nights I was like, this is like, I'm just gonna. Whatever. That was a tough time because I think like it took me years to like get over that and I think I am now. Luckily I, I wasn't like. I Wasn't conscious when it happened. So I'm grateful for that in certain aspects because I don't remember anything. So I don't have any, like, sort of, like, what's it called, a visual stuff to, like, recover from. It's just like, how I felt mentally. So. Yeah.

[Jemima]

Do you know what's amazing is that with all of this that you have gone through, and it's a lot. It's a lot for any human to take. It really is. You're still a voice of hope for so many people. You're pretty amazing human. You really are. Like, truthfully, right. And I think there are so many people out there who watch you online, look at your name, maybe don't comment. The amount of people that are not commenting, maybe their daughter or their friend or their son or their. Themselves are going through something or dealing with the same stuff. And you're that person that's saying, this is what I've dealt with. This is what I've been through. And I'm still here. I'm still standing strong. I'm still getting through it. It really, it's. It's. It's beyond amazing, I. I think. But then, you know, you. When you do start going on social media and start talking about it, did you kind of find like a place where you could start speaking out and being like, oh, maybe I have found my crowd, my team, whoever it is.

[Jamie Lang]

I think it depends on what I talk about. And sometimes I go through stages where, like, I'll be on the for you page a lot. So, like, it's a lot more of an open audience. So sometimes I'll go through stages where I'm not, like, my views aren't. My videos aren't performing as well. So I know I can kind of talk about stuff that's a bit more open because it's not gonna be seen by that many people. Wow.

[Jemima]

So you. You monitor it like that?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

So if your videos aren't being seen as much, you're like, oh, I can talk about this. That I want about to talk.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

Wow.

[Jamie Lang]

But then I shot myself in the foot with this whole video when it came out last week. The last videos I posted last few months, everyone's obviously viewing them and talking about all these things openly, and everyone's seeing that. I didn't know I'd see that. So also, I'm not a child. I know that posting anything online, anyone can see it. So I share less than I used to share. I think after certain situations, like reading and I kind of share less Now I would like, I don't think I'd come online and like, I'll do something like this and I'll say how I feel, but I don't think I'd like sit and talk about it online like to my followers because I also think a lot of people have shit to do with.

[Jemima]

Your story is fundamentally so important and a lot more important right now and then lots of other people. So I think you should share. I really think you should be scared of sharing. I think you, in those situations, if someone. Okay, fine, let's think about someone who's listening, right? Someone who's listening and perhaps they are going through sort of similar experiences. Maybe it's bullying or they do want to transition or they're coming out as gay or whatever it is and they want to start talking about it online. What advice would you give that person?

[Jamie Lang]

I think it's so interesting because my advice is like, don't listen to what people say.

[Jemima]

There you go.

[Jamie Lang]

Right? Like be yourself. But you know, I think it's good for people to share their stories. I find now is like having a bigger platform. You can't really win. I think you get this as well.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

If you share your, if you don't share your.

[Jemima]

Yeah, it's true. That's exactly what it's like.

[Jamie Lang]

It's that you kind of always have this moral compass of like, how much do I share?

[Jemima]

Are you good at accepting love? Not at all.

[Jamie Lang]

Absolutely not. But I just, yeah, my, my brain's not used to it, but it's just like, I don't know, I never talk about this. This is crazy for me.

[Jemima]

Have you ever been in love?

[Jamie Lang]

No.

[Jemima]

You know.

[Jamie Lang]

Definitely like platonic love, but not, I wouldn't say like in love. In love. I think it is. It's so hard dating as a trans woman. It's something that's not really talked about a lot, but it is really difficult.

[Jemima]

Explain that to me.

[Jamie Lang]

Well, I think especially with everything going on. But aside from that, I think like a lot of men, it's still really shunned upon to date a trans woman. I think people still think you're gay or think that like you're this or that. And you know, a lot of guys like are happy to like have a one night stand with me or whatever. Not that I do that too often anymore. I have standards. But people like don't want to date you or don't want to be seen out of you. And I think that's a really difficult thing. And yeah. To sort of deal with and you don't have the normal dating experience. And that's why you accept. Like I accepted with that boy, such like, shit situations. Because I was like, this is. It doesn't get better than this. And I'm not gonna find someone that will treat me the way I meant to be treated because it just doesn't have. It's not like I'm not meant to have that. Like, you know, I don't know if I'll ever get like, married or like, I'll find someone that, you know, whatever. Because I don't know if that's like, it's rare for us. It's not a situation that happens as often as like, would you like to get married? Yeah, I would. I would. I think, like, it's so weird. Like, I think if I. I always wonder what I'd be like if I was like, born as a girl. And I was saying, like, I probably have, like, probably get married really young and like, have kids and have a pretty chill life. But. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that's something that I'm ever gonna have. So.

[Jemima]

Can I ask a personal question?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

Do you ever sometimes think or sometimes go, I hope this comes. Doesn't come across wrong, but you just kind of go, why? Why me? Why? Why? Yeah, why can I. Why couldn't I have just been born a girl?

[Jamie Lang]

I think, yeah. I think especially when I was younger, it was really hard because I think you asked yourself, like, why am I so different to everyone else? Yeah, I think I. I think I stopped after a while though, because I think you just kind of get used to it. And it is my life. Like, I think, you know, there's certain things that other people have experienced or other people have that you just becomes part of you. Like, being trans is me. I can't change it, so I might as well just try and embrace it. But I do think it's more now, like, why do I have to deal with this? Or why do I have to deal with a guy being like this? Or why can't I just have this? Like, why can't I just have, like, I won't probably have like a young love situation, you know, because I'm trans.

[Jemima]

One more personal question I want to ask, like, just. And I hope this is okay.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

You said occasionally when you had like maybe a one night stand or whatever in the morning when you wake up, does the, does the person then sort of go, do they.

[Jamie Lang]

I've had so many situations with guys when they've been really cold after or not spoken to me after. And granted again, I haven't had like 51 likes. Not that that's all right. I just personally don't get that much. I don't anyway sex positive and stuff. But that's just not me. I, I find that like it's. People are fine of it until sometimes they get in that situation when they see me or like whatever happens the next day, I find that people just go cold or they take a step back or it's very much like, oh yeah, just casual babe. Like they'll try and like ask me on dates and stuff and then whatever happens it's like, oh, actually no. And then you'll see them again. Love women, but it's. They, they'll like pie me and then they'll come up with some girl who is like a minger and I'm like, okay, fair. Like, if that's like, it's like it's annoying though, because like you sit and think, like, why can't I like, what was wrong with me? And obviously shock, horror, I know what it is. But like, what, why can't like you always end up comparing yourself to these women who you look nothing like because of a guy who never respected you in the first place. Like, it's just. Yeah, I get it, it's interesting. But I think every girl's had that where like they've really fancied a guy, they've gone a few dates and then the girl that they end up being with, you're like, fair enough. Like, do your thing. If you're happy, you're happy. If you're blind, you're blind.

[Elise Hu]

Hey, I'm Elise Hu, host of the podcast Ted Talks Daily. For more than 20 years, Paylocity has been leading the way with cutting edge work solutions like On Demand Payment, which offers employees access to wages prior to payday, flexible time tracking features which enable staff to clock in and out through their mobile device, and numerous other cutting edge solutions that simplify collaboration across hr, finance and it. Learn more about how Paylocity can help streamline work and enhance business outcomes for your [e-mail] Simplified.

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[Jamie Lang]

Today.

[Jemima]

The Heartstopper came around.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

One of the biggest Netflix shows.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

Out there, you would have been how old? You'd be 19, 20.

[Jamie Lang]

I was 19 when I got there.

[Jemima]

You were 19. What was that experience for you?

[Jamie Lang]

Oh, it was insane. Like, it changed my life completely. And I love my job, but I want to do bigger things like that. Yeah, I loved it. I mean, it was a great show. I'm very grateful that I did it.

[Jemima]

What is the response like, from it?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, it was insane. It was a lot. That was the time where I felt like people were really proud of me, which was nice. And I felt really proud of myself, which was nice as well.

[Jemima]

What's it like turning off on set for the first day?

[Jamie Lang]

If you couldn't tell, I've been through a lot. I get quite anxious. I was shitting bricks. I was so nervous. I had a matcha and it went straight through me. And we were on set in this field and I. Poor, poor people. There was one toilet, and I used it, and I was like, I'm so sorry. And then got to set, obviously. Never been in a Netflix show before, as many people haven't. And this guy, love, love him. We were doing our lines, whatever, and we got set, ready to do this scene, whatever. And they said something about a wave. I had to do a wave or something. And they did it a few times, like, cut, cut. And then on the big boom mic in front, about 200 extra was like, bella, can you, like, do your line? Like, that'd be really appreciative. Like, when we say, like, go, like, go, like, get up. I can't remember what it was. It was. I was like, okay, that was in front of the whole cast, like, the whole crew. Alice was there. She was, fucking hell. Here we go.

[Jemima]

It's a lot.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, it was a lot, but I loved it. And I think season three, I enjoyed more because I felt more like a part of. Because obviously you get to set and everyone's got friends from season one and you're kind of like, getting into it. But yeah, I love it. And like, obviously I've got hopefully future projects coming up, so it should be really fun. But I love that.

[Jemima]

But that is. There's a big thing which people think rich is where sort of. And it's sometimes in some circumstances, it's really hard to believe it, but especially with yours. But everything happens for a reason.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. 100 really? Yeah, I really believe that. 100.

[Jemima]

So you sort of believe that all the hardship that you've been through and all the ups and downs and all the things that happen have led you to the right place?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, I think so. I think that's like. I mean, I'd like to think that. And I think also what I went through, through school, as much as it was awful, definitely prepped me for what I want to do because, like, you can't get. You can't really get worse than what I went through in school. So dealing with what I deal with now online, I'm like, no offense, but, like, call me what you want because I. It's been 10 times worse. So, like, you can't really shock me. Like, there's no shock factor to it. Like, be a bit more creative. That would actually make my day a bit more. Someone did say recently that I look like I take part in, like, bestiality or something. And I was like, wow, this is great. Like, a new one. Like, I'm so happy. Like, a new comment because I was so shocked by it, I thought it was great. Like, I was like, oh, this is cracking. But yeah, like, the whole, like, bloke comment doesn't really, like, bother me anymore. Someone did say yesterday, like, John Cena in a dress, I was like, okay, like, thank you so much for that. But, like, sometimes it makes me laugh. Like, I see the. I see the humor in it now. I don't really read my comments. Like, you shouldn't read them. There's no. I don't.

[Jemima]

If someone listening right now, right, who is maybe experiencing a lot of hate, maybe it's at school, maybe it's way smaller than ever you did. But. But what coping mechanisms would you say that they should use?

[Jamie Lang]

I think having a support system is so important. Like, it's something that I didn't have in school. And I think if I had a support system, it would have been a lot better. And like, finding your people, like, you need to find your people in life that understand you and you don't have to put a guard up or be a different person. Like, just being yourself around a good group who really helps in finding your people. And also, like, I find it now online that you can meet friends and you can find a community that's very similar to us. I didn't have that growing up. I think that would have made things a lot easier. And also, obviously, just ignore people. Like, you have to just keep your head down, keep going, and just ignore people because they're not gonna. Like, they're not gonna. You can't win. And if you can't win with someone, there's no point in valuing their opinion. Do you know what I mean?

[Jemima]

Completely.

[Jamie Lang]

Like, with people, that comment is like, if I, like, transition tomorrow, you're still going to think I'm a weirdo. So, like, so I do transition tomorrow, you're gonna still think I'm odd. So I. I can't win. So there's no point in having a conversation with you. I spent to go on this, like, this news thing and debate with someone, and I was like, I'm not debating with someone. I have no words for someone that thinks I'm a man. Like, what am I meant to say? I'm not going to argue with you over my existence. I'm here. Like, what do you want me to say? Like, oh, like. Like, if you can't respect me as a woman, there's no need for us to have a conversation, in my opinion. So, yeah, I think it's. It's just listening to, like, someone that really value values you and you trust them. Listen to their opinions, not to random Stacy down the road.

[Jemima]

You're so right. Can I ask you some sort of big questions?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

Okay. Not that they've been small already.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

One that I want. How do you personally define the difference between sex and gender?

[Jamie Lang]

So sex is this is this is what's interesting is, so sex, people think it's male or female, but there's actually intersex, which is. There's, like. I think there's 40 or 50 variations. So a lot of people aren't like, sex isn't. It's complicated. It's not just a one or other thing. Like, it's not a binary thing. So gender is how you identify, and it's how you express yourself, and it's, like, what you feel most comfortable in. So, you know, so I am transgender, so I change genders. You can't change sexes. Does that make sense? Yes, makes sense. But this whole situation with the bathroom situation, people saying, like, well, biological women, but a lot of Women. If you look at women in general, you have women that are about five years ago, again, don't quote me about five years ago, English. About five years ago there was a study. If you look at a woman that's who is like 6 foot 2, flat chest, male, like masculine jaw, or like you have women that are five foot and curvy and you know, whatever, that chromosomes will probably be a bit different. It's a spectrum, it's a range. Now it's what I believe is like scientists are starting to discover, so. And a lot of people are intersex. So when it comes to the whole like biological, biological argument, when it comes to bathrooms, you're excluding a big group of people because a lot of people don't fall into that, the two lanes. But yeah, so sex and gender are different and gender is how you identify.

[Jemima]

And they're also, you know, thinking on that. There are sort of extreme people who believe, believe that trans women now shouldn't be in female spaces. What do you feel about that with.

[Jamie Lang]

The whole like, argument when it comes to trans women? I think a lot of them haven't met a trans woman. And people always do it on the basis of protecting women, but you have nothing to protect them from. And also with this whole like, new law and stuff, how's your life changed? Because I could ask any woman in this room and I'm sure they still feel as unsafe walking home at night. Nothing's changed. Like, this hasn't made anything better and like, trans women aren't the problem as men. Oh, shock, horror. Like, it's not like I don't see any of these women at like women's marches or any of these men, like, you know, calling out their friend when their friends are sexist or like, have, you know, done something to a woman. Like, it's really interesting when people pick and choose their battles and you know, with this whole situation, people saying how it's not going to affect women, like, if I get stopped by a police officer or like public transport, I will now be strip searched by a man. Which is crazy. Look at situations like Sarah Everard, obviously, who was murdered by a police officer because she trusted him. Police have like, I think it's like 1,100 cases, like sexual misconduct a year or something like that against them. Do you really trust the police that they're not gonna see a woman that they fancy on the train, strip search her, which they can do now and claim that they thought that she was trans and then in the eyes of the law be fine. Because legally, oh, I thought she was trans. Because also, like, if I walk down the street, I mean, here in comes the comments saying, oh, I could tell, but, like, you probably wouldn't be able to tell. So it's a really dangerous game. And also now men can claim they're trans men and go into women's spaces and go into the female toilets. So if you weren't. If you were worried about me coming into the toilets before, you've got a bigger issue coming your way.

[Jemima]

So just. So, again, this is my naivety. So they haven't changed the law so trans men can go into.

[Jamie Lang]

Well, they're saying you have to go into the toilets that you, like, you were biologically. So these trans men.

[Jemima]

I didn't. Why didn't I not even think that through?

[Jamie Lang]

Clearly, these trans men who were women, when they, like, obviously transition from female to male, who have had surgeries, who have also been on hormones since they were God knows how old, like, you know, you might have a guy with full beard, looks like you, but was trans, is trans now, technically has to use the female's bathroom.

[Jemima]

So as a trans woman, do you feel unsafe?

[Jamie Lang]

I think I do, but I know I have it a lot better than other trans women. I'm more concerned about, and I'm more here to talk about kids that are just transitioning and how life and how scared they must be compared to me. Because it's not about me, really. It's about all these kids that don't pass or all these people that just transitioned that now can't use the toilet and now are gonna be scared walking out and about because you have the government saying that they're not the gender that they identify with. And that is scary because it's just gonna, like, increase hate crime. In school when I was younger, I had. Luckily, I mean, the situation with trans people was a lot better than it is now. And I always knew that in the eyes of the law, I had somewhat protection. And, you know, technically the higher ups saw me as a woman. So, like, these people just being twats. But I knew that, like, legally and stuff, I could still get to a certain level as a woman. So now that's out the window and you have the government basically shitting on trans people. So then that. What does that. What narrative does that send to kids? And what narratives does that send to, you know, lads? Like, they're just going to get worse.

[Jemima]

What kind of challenges arise when your legal sex doesn't match your gender identity? Like, in terms of healthcare, travel or.

[Jamie Lang]

Employment now it's like, what. It's. It's gonna predominantly be the issue of what spaces we're allowed in. And also we're not protected in them spaces anymore. So, like, I'm not protected in a woman's space anymore legally. I believe, once the law goes into place.

[Jemima]

Complicated, isn't it?

[Jamie Lang]

It's complicated.

[Jemima]

It's really hard.

[Jamie Lang]

Interesting. And also, like, for example, if, like, something happens to me, I go to a male ward. I don't go to a female ward anymore. Yeah. So if, if I. If I get. Or if I get in, like, you know, I mean, I'm a lover, not a fighter. But if I scrap a bitch, which I won't do, Peace and love. I. If, you know, she was a knob and took it to court and I got put in prison, I'd be put in a male's prison, I wouldn't be put into a female's prison. Because in America, that they're changing people's passports back to male, that's like a big thing. It's happened to, like, Hunter Schaefer and stuff. It's really bad. I've got turned down from a club once when I was like 18 for being trans. I think, like, he looked at me like, oh, like, that's like. Doesn't line up or something. You can't come in. I was like, so if you start to see, we'll start being excluded from certain spaces, I think. And also, what happens now, as they say publicly, like any public toilets, there has to be a third place, which also, we're in a recession. Do you really think we have the money for doing that? But it then becomes like what a business decides to do. Then also, if a business isn't following the UK guideline, like guidance, they can also be sued. So it's like, basically, if people really want to be twats, like, they'll feel so much pressure from TERFs and whoever to make sure that it's biological spaces because they don't want to get the fear of, like, people not turning up and stuff. So it's just like, it's going to be really interesting to see how it all plays out.

[Jemima]

Can you explain the term terf?

[Jamie Lang]

It's a trans exclusive, trans exclusionary feminist or something along the line radical feminist. So basically it's a feminist that doesn't believe in trans rights or doesn't believe that trans men are women and they're separate.

[Jemima]

An example of that would be someone.

[Jamie Lang]

J.K. rowling, who put like 70 grand into this whole Supreme Court Thing, by the way. Of course that's what he won. I think she was neighbors with the guy as well. Or like, one of the Supreme Court people. Sorry, she's. She. What a knob. Like, can we just, like, discuss, like, write another novel? Like, you could do a sequel like, Harry Potter's still alive. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's so many other things you could do. What a twat.

[Jemima]

Just. Thank you.

[Jamie Lang]

Thank you for having me.

[Jemima]

Are you kidding me? Thank you so much. Like, honestly, you're really brave. Like, you really, like, you really are so brave. And it's just wild, the fact that you were an only child and you felt there was no escape. And I'm just so glad you're here and you're doing great and you're killing it and you're doing these amazing things and you're this beacon of hope for so many people. People. So just keep doing what you're doing.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

Promise me.

[Jamie Lang]

Oh, yeah.

[Jemima]

Okay. That's a promise.

[Jamie Lang]

High five.

[Jemima]

Okay, great. Thank you so much for having me. Oh, you're the best. We have eight questions that we like to end on. It's quick, far, or how do you want it? Are you ready for this?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up?

[Jamie Lang]

I'd have to say that's crack. I love saying, oh, that's crack cocaine. Like, oh, God, this is crack. Oh, I. Not so random. I started saying this recently. If someone. This is not a quick fire answer. If someone says something I don't understand. Oh, let's meet Wednesday. My point. I just say my point to everything and it's. It's my. Just love it. Like, if you said something. My point.

[Jemima]

Someone said to me the other day, which I quite like, which is when you're having a conversation and we're probably similar, going off in all different directions, someone said to me, oh, we'll just pin that there for a second.

[Jamie Lang]

Pop a pin in it. Yeah, that's what I did. Just pop. If someone says something like, oh, two seconds. What I was saying was.

[Jemima]

Yeah, it's a good one. Best compliment anyone's ever given you.

[Jamie Lang]

I get a lot of compliments, say I sound nice, which is nice. Yeah. I'd say that sometimes it's like such a backhanded compliment. It's me, Chris. You actually look quite like a woman. Thank you so much. Do you know what made me piss myself was on this ITV News thing, it was all this hate, and then I had one comment, like, five likes. Hear me Out I went. Yes.

[Jemima]

When was the last time you cried?

[Jamie Lang]

I think a lot. The last, like, two weeks. But, yeah, I quite like when this whole situation happened. I cried a lot.

[Jemima]

What's something you can't let go of?

[Jamie Lang]

One thing that I find it's a big motivation, but also a big. Like, it's annoying as the way people treat me at school. I'm always trying to prove people wrong, which I don't actually ever get rid of. And it's a good driving force. And like, yeah, like, you work at a garden center. Like, whoa. But. But nothing wrong with garlic center. But, like, it's just the people. That was such twats to me at school. It's now like, well, what are you doing? But then I've got past the point. Like, Bella, you've done, like. You've got, like, past where they thought you were gonna go. Like, you don't need to keep proving these people that don't care wrong. But it's like, I don't know. That's something that I always keep taking. But, I mean, it's got me to where I've got so, like that. It's only gonna get worse.

[Jemima]

What's your guilty pleasure?

[Jamie Lang]

Good question. Sleep. I love a good nap. I'm such a napper.

[Jemima]

It's a good one.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

That's a good one.

[Jamie Lang]

That's a pretty short answer.

[Jemima]

No, I like it. What turns you off?

[Jamie Lang]

Like, stupidness. Like, people that aren't educated in situations I find, like. Especially now, you know, like, the election happened. Oh, I'm just not, like, very political. It's, like, sharp. Like. Like, like, get educated. I hate. I hate people that don't know what they're talking about. Like, you read. Read on the news. It's not difficult. No offense.

[Jemima]

What turns you on?

[Jamie Lang]

Smart people. I like some of ambition. Like, I think ambitious people are really. And I also think that you could be. You could want to be, like, the number one Tesco worker. And if you have the ambition, I think that's so attractive. Like, I think they're with you in that. Like, it doesn't. I don't have to turn. Like, I don't want to do that. But, like, if it's like, if you really have a passion, that, to me, is, like, a really. It's nice when someone has a passion in life and someone to, like, goals. I find that really attractive.

[Jemima]

I'm so with you. I love it.

[Jamie Lang]

Friends and stuff.

[Jemima]

Yeah. It doesn't matter what your passion is. I love it when people speak passionately.

[Jamie Lang]

Exactly.

[Jemima]

If we're talking about making this table, I love it.

[Jamie Lang]

Exactly. I think it's really interesting.

[Jemima]

Yeah, I'm exactly the same. What do you like most about yourself?

[Jamie Lang]

Probably I think I'm a good friend.

[Jemima]

That's one of the best things to be.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. I thought you were like. That's a shit answer. Cop out.

[Jemima]

No, that's. That's a good answer.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. I'd like to say I'm a good friend and like, I'm a loyal friend.

[Jemima]

It's the best thing to be.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

Never lose that.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

Bonus. One favorite swear word.

[Jamie Lang]

I love the C word.

[Jemima]

You can say it if you want.

[Jamie Lang]

I love saying that, but I've started saying it too much that I call everything that, like, some woman could be. Like, I once said to my friend, I was like, hey, come. And they were like, whoa, that's too far. So I'm so sorry. But yeah, I love the C word or twat.

[Jemima]

This has been crack.

[Jamie Lang]

It's crack.

[Jemima]

Thank you so much.

[Jamie Lang]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Belle Priestley]

That was so good.

[Jemima]

Yes.

[Belle Priestley]

I really, really enjoyed that. What an amazing, amazing woman.

[Jemima]

An amazing woman and just brave.

[Belle Priestley]

She's been through so much. She's so young and. But like, also can have a she. I just, I just thought her whole energy, she was just like, like, she. She was so sparkly.

[Jemima]

Yeah, she's an amazing person. And again, as we said at the very beginning, whatever your views are, it's. It's so imperative that you listen to voices and understand people that you may not chat to normally. Whether you disagree with the supreme ruling or you agree with it, whatever it is, these conversations are so important to understand and hear. So we really appreciate you guys listening, listening. If you enjoyed the episode, remember to subscribe and share it with others and also get in touch with us at Great Company Podcast on Instagram. We're also on YouTube and tick tock and you can send us email great companyproductions.co.uk Lovely. Thanks, Jemima.

[Belle Priestley]

Thanks, Jamie.

[Jemima]

I'm gonna see you next week for.

[Belle Priestley]

Another episode of Great Company.

[Elise Hu]

Hey, I'm Elise Hu, host of the podcast Ted Talks Daily. For more than 20 years, Paylocity has been leading the way with cutting edge work solutions like on demand payment, which offers employees access to wages prior to payday, flexible time tracking features which enable staff to clock in and out through their mobile device and numerous other cutting edge solutions that simplify collaboration across hr, finance and it. Learn more about how Paylocity can help streamline work and enhance business outcomes for your [e-mail] Simplified packages by Expedia, you.

[Jamie Lang]

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