CAT BURNS: BEFORE MY AUTISM DIAGNOSIS, I FELT I WAS DOING LIFE WRONG

Summary

Great Company with Jamie Laing: Cat Burns – Before My Autism Diagnosis, I Felt I Was Doing Life Wrong

Release Date: February 12, 2025 | Host: Jamie Laing | Guest: Cat Burns

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1. Introduction

In this enlightening episode of Great Company with Jamie Laing, host Jamie welcomes musician and artist Cat Burns to discuss her journey with neurodiversity, personal growth, and the profound impact of her music. The conversation delves deep into Cat's experiences before and after her autism diagnosis, offering listeners valuable insights into living authentically and embracing one's true self.

2. Personal Background and Early Experiences

Jamie Laing opens the dialogue by sharing a personal anecdote about introducing Cat on stage at the BBC Radio 1 Festival, highlighting her as an "amazing artist" with a natural presence. This sets the stage for a heartfelt conversation about Cat's early life and the challenges she faced.

3. Neurodiversity: ADHD and Autism

Cat discusses her experiences living with ADHD and her later diagnosis of autism. She explains how her neurodivergent traits made social interactions challenging and often led her to feel disconnected from others.

Cat Burns [05:36]: "I'm an ADHD autistic girl. I need deep conversational interactions, which makes small talk difficult for me."

Cat elaborates on the differences between how ADHD manifests in girls compared to boys, noting that neurodivergent girls often remain high-achievers outwardly while struggling internally.

Cat Burns [33:59]: "ADHD in girls shows itself completely differently than in boys. We're still super smart and meet deadlines, but the journey it took is invisible."

4. Relationships and People-Pleasing Tendencies

The conversation shifts to Cat's propensity for people-pleasing and her struggles with maintaining genuine connections. She shares how her desire to make others feel safe often led her to overshare personal details or tell white lies to avoid conflict.

Cat Burns [12:23]: "I want every interaction to be meaningful. If someone doesn't overshare back, I find it scary because now they know so much about me."

Jamie relates by sharing his own experiences with people-pleasing, fostering a sense of camaraderie between the two.

5. Coping with Grief and Loss

Cat opens up about the profound impact of her father's passing on Christmas Day four years ago. She discusses how this loss forced her to confront and process her grief, leading to significant personal growth and a deeper understanding of forgiveness.

Cat Burns [26:04]: "I had to unpack and forgive myself and him. Now I take control of my brain, keeping what serves me and letting go of what doesn't."

6. Coming Out and Embracing Authenticity

A pivotal moment in the episode is Cat's story about coming out as a lesbian. She describes the emotional journey, the fear of judgment, and the liberation that followed. Her song "Free," which resonates with many listeners as an anthem of self-acceptance, is highlighted as a therapeutic expression of her truth.

Cat Burns [55:46]: "When I wrote 'Free,' it was about coming out to my mum. It's a freeing feeling to finally accept myself and step into my truth."

7. Music as Therapy and Connection

Cat emphasizes the role of music in her healing process and its power to connect people. She believes that music serves as a universal language that can make individuals feel less alone in their struggles.

Cat Burns [32:00]: "Music is therapy. It connects people because someone listening can relate to what's being sung and feel less alone."

8. Strategies for Managing Neurodiversity and Mental Health

Throughout the episode, Cat shares practical strategies that have helped her manage ADHD and autism without relying solely on medication. She highlights the importance of routines, exercise, and self-awareness in maintaining mental well-being.

Cat Burns [36:52]: "Exercise and a set routine have been more helpful for me than medication. It's about discipline and finding what works for your brain."

9. Closing Section: Rapid-Fire Questions

Towards the end, Jamie and Cat engage in a rapid-fire segment, answering personal questions that offer a glimpse into each other’s personalities:

• What's the favorite swear word?

  Cat Burns: "Tracy Be when she says 'bog off.'"

• Best compliment ever received?

  Cat Burns: "Your aura is really nice."

• What scares you most about yourself?

  Cat Burns: "How big my feelings can be."

• Favorite guilty pleasure?

  Cat Burns: "Rewatching Geordie Shore from season one to eleven."

These light-hearted exchanges provide a balanced contrast to the profound topics discussed earlier, leaving listeners with a sense of connection and relatability.

10. Conclusion

Cat Burns leaves a lasting impression with her authenticity, resilience, and the profound messages conveyed through her music and personal story. Great Company with Jamie Laing successfully highlights the importance of understanding and embracing neurodiversity, the healing power of authentic connections, and the role of music in personal growth.

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For more inspiring conversations, subscribe to Great Company on your favorite podcast platform and join Jamie every Wednesday for another episode of GREAT COMPANY.

Transcript

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[Jamie Laing]

Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Laing and this is great company. Hello, producer Jemima.

[Jemima]

Hello, Jamie Lang.

[Jamie Laing]

Well, how are you today?

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

I'm very well. I'm very excited for our guest.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm very, very excited for our guest. Just quickly update on your life. How's things going?

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

How's things going? Yeah, things are going fine. Things are ticking along. We've launched a new.

[Jamie Laing]

Oh, we should mention this.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

We should mention this. We've launched a new show. It's been out for a few weeks.

[Jamie Laing]

We have. So under Jampot, our amazing team here at Jampot, which obviously Jemima is at the forefront of, we have launched a brand new show with Paloma Faith, which I feel like you're a little bit of a Judas. You're not at all.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

You're not at all.

[Jamie Laing]

You're not at all. Because that was our plan.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

That was the plan.

[Jamie Laing]

Jemima is now also working on a Paloma Faith show.

[Jemima]

Yes.

[Jamie Laing]

Which is called Mad, Sad and Bad. And you can take it from here and tell us about it.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

Oh, my gosh, it's so good. So, first and foremost, Palo Moma is so wonderful. She's never interviewed before, but a real natural. And we've got loads of really cool guests in and she is asking them about a time that they were mad, they were sad and they were bad. And what I love about it is those words people can take to mean in such different ways. Like, mad could be angry, mad could be insane, mad could just be, like, different. Like, people might have just called you mad and you're like, I don't think I was being mad.

[Jamie Laing]

I love that.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Fun, right?

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

Very fun.

[Jamie Laing]

Listen, I'm sure lots of people have come to the episode to listen to Cat Burns, because you've seen the title you want to hear from us. So we're about to get into it now. Now, Cat Burns is an amazing guest. Cat is an incredible musician, artist. I actually introduced her on stage at BBC Radio 1 festival, which was in Luton last year. It was incredible.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

Are you gonna ask her? Ask her if she remembers?

[Jamie Laing]

I'm gonna ask a few members.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

What happened? Did you say hello?

[Jamie Laing]

Well, she was preparing to get ready and I tried to talk to her and she was just, like, obviously trying to get.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

Trying to get.

[Jamie Laing]

Trying to get in the zone.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

Read the room, man.

[Jamie Laing]

Read the room. But she is an amazing artist. She's Neurodiverse.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Which is going to be very interesting to talk about, as I. I have adhd and I'm just fascinated to hear about her life, where she's come from. She's, you know, she's so young, but achieved so much, and that's what's so amazing. So I'm really excited for it.

[Jemima]

Yeah, she just, like. She's so.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

She's young, but she's so mature. Like, she really seems to know herself.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

Like, when listening to, like, her lyrics and things. So, yeah, I'm really excited to have her in.

[Jamie Laing]

If you haven't Already. Please let us know what you think of the show. You can slide into our DMs@GreatCompany podcast on Instagram. We're also on TikTok and you can check out our YouTube channel as well. Great Company. And you can send us an email. Greatcompanyamproproductions.co.uk Are you ready for this?

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

I am very ready.

[Jamie Laing]

Here we go. Enjoy this episode of Great Company with Cat Burns.

[Jemima]

Hi, I'm Kat Burns and I'm Great Company.

[Jamie Laing]

I don't think we've had. We haven't had. We haven't had a bad one yet.

[Jemima]

Have you not.

[Jamie Laing]

Not yet. So this is the challenge. This is the challenge today. Do you ever get nervous about podcasting or going stage or anything like that?

[Jemima]

I get nervous for any sort of social interaction outside of singing. So if I'm on stage, I'm like, fine, but I'll be thinking about, oh, my God, he's going to be in my dressing room after the show that I'm going to have to speak to that. I don't know that I'm going to have to do some small talk with that. I don't want to do.

[Jamie Laing]

But hang on a second. Podcasting is just small talk, so.

[Jemima]

No, it's not. You can get deep.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay. You can.

[Jemima]

You can find a way to get deep.

[Jamie Laing]

So that's so interesting.

[Jemima]

Yeah, I'm just not. I'm a. I'm an ADHD autistic girl. I have to. I need deep conversational.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm like, that. I have adhd. Yeah. But I didn't really relate it to that.

[Jemima]

Yeah, that's. I can't do the small talk. That's why I struggle in, like, events because most of the time everyone's sort of looking through each other, not really having actual conversations. It's just sort of like, hey, alright. And then just. You can't really get to the nitty gritty of anything. So I end up just not really saying anything because I'm like, well, there's no point me opening my mouth and saying anything because nobody's trying to have a proper conversation here.

[Jamie Laing]

But explain that to me deeper. Because what you feel, the lack of connection, you feel that, that small talk isn't where you're going to connect or more you with small talk in those social situations. You don't know. You freeze almost. You don't really know what to say.

[Jemima]

I have absolutely no idea what to say after, hey, how are you? I just sort of go, come on.

[Jamie Laing]

Let'S, let's Try it together. Ready? So we'll pretend we're at an event here. We'll do some role play.

[Jemima]

Okay. All right, then.

[Jamie Laing]

So I'm, by the way, and I'm your therapist.

[Jemima]

All right, all right, all right. This is my idea of hell on earth.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay. We're going to try it, right? Because the way to get through things is exposing your.

[Jemima]

Right then.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, here we go.

[Jemima]

Right. I'm sweating as you really nervous. Okay. Oh, my God. Okay, I'm ready. All right, let's go. I'm ready.

[Jamie Laing]

I meant to make our guests really comfortable, and what I've done is just pushed you further. More uncomfortable. Yeah. By the way, I'm just going to make you more uncomfortable.

[Jemima]

Okay. I can do it. I can do it. I'm literally 24. I can. I need to know how to speak.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, you ready? Hey, Are you Kat Burns?

[Jemima]

I am, yeah. I am, yeah. Hello. Hey.

[Jamie Laing]

So I love your music. I love what you do. Do you like what you do?

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

See, it was good. There we go.

[Jemima]

That wasn't good at all.

[Jamie Laing]

That was quite good.

[Jemima]

I learned, though.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay. Yeah.

[Jemima]

I had a friend, and she said, if you ever meet somebody and they tell you they like your music, just have a little script and just say, like, oh, thank you. What's your name? Said person will tell me their name. I'll instantly forget because I cannot remember someone's name after about after. It's like the fifth time I'll remember your name.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

So I usually go, thank you so much. What's your name? Have a nice day.

[Jamie Laing]

In that order. That's.

[Jemima]

What if they say other things that fall out of that script for me, Then I'll just sort of go, okay, but amazing.

[Jamie Laing]

But then, fine. One of us. I said to you said, hey, I. Sam, Jamie. You're Kevin's. Okay. You do music. I love that. What do you think the meaning of life is?

[Jemima]

Oh, that's fab.

[Jamie Laing]

But see, that is mad.

[Jemima]

Absolutely fabulous. I love it.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, so. So this is brilliant. So the small talk. Hey, how are you? So which most individuals, I suppose that meaningless conversation.

[Jemima]

Right.

[Jamie Laing]

Which is like fluff. That's quite tricky. But actually, if I was to say to you, what's the meaning of life? Or do you believe in God? Or.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

What is really love? You'd be straight in there.

[Jemima]

Yeah. That to me is just like, oh, we're about to have a really beautiful conversation. Which is why I think people mistake a lot of neurodivergent people always get told that they're flirting when really, I'm just looking at you and asking you a deeper question and care about what you're saying to me, rather than just being like, oh, la, la, la, la, I actually want to know. Or usually, like, I'll ask a really deep question to someone, make them contemplate their whole existence, and then just frolic away into the distance.

[Jamie Laing]

Kat, you've just honestly opened up a whole light for me about my life.

[Jemima]

That's what I do.

[Jamie Laing]

No, but I'm not even kidding you. This is exactly what I'm like. So just a little. By the way, this podcast. You can interview me.

[Jemima]

I will.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, good. This me now. So I. Growing up, hectic kid. Right. All those different things. Got sort of diagnosed, in a way with adhd. Kind of forgot it recently. Got rediagnosed because I wanted to understand it a little bit more.

[Jemima]

What do you mean you got re. Diagnosed?

[Jamie Laing]

Well, I went to. I. When I was younger, I went to a doctor who sort of said, yes, you have adhd. But it wasn't a thorough check. Recently, I went ahead. A thorough check.

[Jemima]

Okay.

[Jamie Laing]

And the sort of idea I got back was, you're off the scale type thing. So. Yeah. And I was like, okay, brilliant. What do I do with that? They offered medication. I said, I don't. I don't want to take medication because I've been 36 years without it. But what you're saying is that is so interesting because I love going deep with people. It does something to my body, to my heart, to my endorphins, to something. I don't know what it is. And you're saying exactly the same thing, but we're saying that's an ADHD thing.

[Jemima]

It is. I think it's just, like, a desire to have, like. I just. I really. As much as people scare me, I do also love them, and I want to connect with people. And even if I am never going to see that person again, I would love for every interaction I have with someone to be meaningful or not have the interaction really at all. I just. I just find it hard. I don't like the fluff, which is why my mom will always be like, you're really nosy. Like, you'll just. I'll meet someone new and I'll come home and I'll be like, yeah, so they told me this, this, this, this, this, and all their childhood trauma. And she'll be like, how did you find that out? And I'm like, I just asked because I wanted to know.

[Jamie Laing]

I love that.

[Jemima]

Thank you.

[Jamie Laing]

No, it's Amazing. And I think that's so important. I love the fact that you want to connect with people. The reason I started this podcast is because it was about connection.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And I feel like in a world where we're losing that connection because of devices and social media and stuff like that, it was about reconnecting in that space.

[Jemima]

Yeah. Because you never know what you're going to end up speaking about.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you find it easier to connect with strangers or people close to you?

[Jemima]

People close to me, really?

[Jamie Laing]

I sometimes find it easier to connect with strangers. I can be more vulnerable sometimes with strangers. That's why with the podcast, I can be more vulnerable. For some reason, if it's a friend coming on the podcast, I find it harder to be vulnerable.

[Jemima]

Really?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. It's a weird one.

[Jemima]

I think it's. I think because I. If you're a close friend of mine, we would have unlocked different levels of the friendship. We would have spoken about really deep things and you would have experienced some. A level of my life with me, whereas a stranger, actually. What the hell am I talking about? I'm such an oversharer with anyone. Actually, if you ask me the right question, I'll tell you my whole life story and every sort of single trauma I've ever had in my life and be completely fine with doing that. So actually I. I can open up to anyone. Actually, I can open up to my friends and. Or a stranger. So I told you a lie.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you ever get regret from oversharing?

[Jemima]

Only if that person didn't over share back. If I, like, meet someone laughing. If I, like, meet someone new and they, like, ask me a question and, like, I've told them every single, like, thing that's happened to me in my life, and then they just kind of go, oh, okay. And then the interaction's over. Then I'm like, hold on. Now that person just knows everything about me and they didn't share one thing. I don't. I find people like that really scary.

[Jamie Laing]

Like, if I feel so used.

[Jemima]

Yeah. I feel like, you know now so much about me. I just find people that don't share things scary.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, same.

[Jemima]

I find it really frightening.

[Jamie Laing]

Like, I'm just. Honestly, I feel like I'm not the same. I feel like it's so connected on you on this. Like, so connected. The reason why I have this other podcast where I just share everything, because I'm like, I have nothing to hide. I don't care about what you think of me. I do care about because I'm a people pleaser. And I know you have that as well. Recovering, recovery, same. I think we're always going to be recovering. But actually I also don't mind what I share. I don't mind what I share because I like you. I think we're good people, we have a good heart and we're after good things. So sharing the ups, the downs, the left and the rights of life is a beautiful thing.

[Jemima]

But I arguably, I think that might be because to a certain degree you've done the work on that. Not you not carrying any shame with any of the things that have happened to you or that have occurred in your life. Because I think if something is like. Cause, like if I had a super traumatic moment in my life or so many experiences that I really struggle to speak about, I might just never want to share them because I haven't yet unpacked it properly within myself. Whereas I'm able to talk about next to anything because I've already unpacked it. Which is why sometimes it can seem emotionless when I speak about it because I'm just like, yeah, so this happened to me. And people like, what? And I'm like, yeah. But I think because I've done the work already and I'm like, yeah, this happened. I've carried the guilt or the shame with it and then I've let it go and I've done the work on myself to forgive myself for everything that's happened. I'm. I'm happy to share because it doesn't define me.

[Jamie Laing]

Is there, is there an area that there is a no go zone area for you?

[Jemima]

To be honest with you, no, it's just mainly like, I think as an artist, some things are good to just be left as ambiguity.

[Jamie Laing]

Explain that. What do you mean?

[Jemima]

I just think I'm so much of an oversharer. So sometimes my team will be like, you don't have to share, people don't need to know that about you. Whereas I would just yap away. So I think especially with social media, there's this idea, especially with musicians now, where fans want to know everything about artists. Whereas back in the day that wasn't the case, it was the music. So sometimes I have to just remind myself, like, what I'm doing is I'm an artist, I want to share what I love and that's the music, and talk about things that I want to talk about that I feel like is relevant to the music that I make. But then there are some things that people don't need to know. You know, is there a way do.

[Jamie Laing]

You think that as a. As an artist you almost don't want to share too much? Because if you share too much, then the mystery is kind of taken away. But also is there an advantage for sharing everything? Because then there is no mystery and then your fan base feel much closer to you. Is there a fine line that you shouldn't cross?

[Jemima]

Yeah, I think that. I think that I found the balance is the songs itself. I'm very vulnerable and honest in the songs that I make. So then people feel like they know me through my songs and then why decide to share online will be just general random thoughts I have about life that other people seem to have too, which will make people feel even more connected to me. But then I just think there's certain aspects of my life that I've learned over time don't need to be shared because then people's opinions can form their way in and evil eye exists. You know, people. People could be wishing bad on you, whereas if you don't share the certain elements, then no one can wish bad on what they don't know.

[Jamie Laing]

Like, what are we talking? What have you shared that you were.

[Jemima]

Just like, I don't know, Jamie. Just like you like people. There are people that wish bad on people.

[Jamie Laing]

No, there's not.

[Jemima]

There are. There are people sitting at home going, don't want that person to succeed. And I don't want to give them any reason to do that.

[Jamie Laing]

Why? Why would anyone want to wish bad on you in any way? There's no way.

[Jemima]

Because in school I generally got along with everyone. Most people liked me. But there would be just a select few that decided they didn't like me for whatever reason. And I would sense it. I would walk in, I'd go, I know they don't like me. And I would really like them too, but I don't know what I could do to make them like they just didn't like me. They didn't like my nature. And those ones were the ones that I knew would wish bad on me. I knew when I applied for Brit school, they said, what, you think you're really going to get in there? I thought. I thought maybe, maybe.

[Jamie Laing]

No, I was just doing it for fun.

[Jemima]

Maybe. I don't know. I know that they're wishing bad upon me, so I don't give them a reason to. I believe it.

[Jamie Laing]

I thought I was going to get in.

[Jemima]

Imagine I didn't know exactly. Imagine I didn't get in. Luckily I did. But I knew they were wishing I didn't.

[Jamie Laing]

How did you know that these people at school didn't like you. You just feel the vibe.

[Jemima]

I can just tell. I can just tell. Like I'm a massive observer.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay.

[Jemima]

Like as much as I'm an oversharer and a yapper in dependent on the situation, I'm also a massive people watcher. And before I yap, I observe the environment I'm in to make sure I'm. It's safe enough. And I just like to know like who I'm dealing with and like what their mannerisms are. So if I, I can walk into a space and I can just sense by the person's energy how they're looking at me when they think I'm not looking and just like certain vibes that they give off, I'm like, you don't really like me.

[Jamie Laing]

Really?

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

That can be a dangerous thing as well.

[Jemima]

Right?

[Jamie Laing]

Because that, it's, it's exhausting in some ways because you're constantly analyzing situations the whole time and seeing where you stand and how you feel and what's going on.

[Jemima]

Oh yeah. I think my, I think again, I think that is also down to having ADHD and autism and finding people generally confusing and wanting to understand them in the deepest way possible. So when I go into spaces, I'm just always on high alert because I'm just very like aware of how I'm like, I'm very conscious of being perceived, so I'm like, I'm just aware of everything and then I'm perceiving other people because I'm like, what are they? It's a, it's a, it's a whole thing.

[Jamie Laing]

Was it easy for you to make friends growing up?

[Jemima]

I. People around me would probably say yes. They would be like, if I said.

[Jamie Laing]

No, because I would say you're such easy company. Like, like no. But I'm being totally, I'm being completely honest not to try and buddy you up. I would say it's very easy company for, for me.

[Jemima]

Thank you.

[Jamie Laing]

I don't know how it is for you, but for me it is. And I imagine that's probably what you're saying there is that for you people would say, yeah, but for you it felt more, it feels more of an effort because they don't know internally what's going on.

[Jemima]

Yes, yes, in a non cocky, annoying way. People like me. But I, as I got older I was like, but do I like them? Do I enjoy the conversation that I'm having? I think so. And so much of being a people pleaser as well is like everything is everything. To do with other people. And I'm always trying to make sure other people feel safe and comfortable to speak to me. And because I guess growing up, I never felt that safety within myself, so I wanted to always make everyone feel safe around me. So then it's not until I've gotten older where I'm like, okay, this person likes me. Even with dating, it might be, oh, this person likes me, but do I actually, do I like them? In school, I particularly would make it my mission if there was a quiet person to befriend said quiet person. Because I was just like, they're probably the funniest in the room because they're the ones that, like, say things under their breath that no one else hears, but I will. And I just was like, I want to befriend the quiet people. I just wanted to be. I just wanted to be friends with everyone. But I was a bit of a floater.

[Jamie Laing]

That's amazing that you had.

[Jemima]

That.

[Jamie Laing]

You had that sense of caring and empathy in your life. Your dad wasn't around.

[Jemima]

Well, yeah, I mean, like, not really.

[Jamie Laing]

So what was the relationship there? So. Because your mum's your kind of rock, I imagine, right?

[Jemima]

She's my queen.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

She's the queen of my existence. I didn't have the best relationship with my dad, and he passed away four years ago.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow.

[Jemima]

Christmas Day. Which is why I think, slightly a tangent, but still within topic. I think people who experience grief are one of the most loving people. Like, one of the most loving people you could meet. Because we know the. The fragility of life and how important it is to love people when they're there. And it's a sad club to be a part of, but the. It. It's a beautiful one as well, because you've. We've learned the price we pay for love. But. But it's nice because my mum. I can do random things. My mum will be like, like, you know, your dad did that exact same thing. Like, town to how I moisturize my face. Or like, I can personify anything. I could. I could do anything. Like, I've got my imagination is so, like, what do you mean?

[Jamie Laing]

You could be sort of like.

[Jemima]

Like, I could. Like, I could just. It. Like, I could be driving and a random pedestrian just, like, crosses the street. I'll give them a random name. I've given them a backstory. I've been like, why have you done that, Janine? Why? What. What's your problem? Or like, I can just really. I can. I can personify any. I Can build a story, you build.

[Jamie Laing]

A world around anything and anyone.

[Jemima]

Exactly. And that's something that he would do. And he was always the. The life and soul of that. He would be the one giving advice to everybody and doing all of these things. But in. He wasn't able to provide that to his family.

[Jamie Laing]

What. How old are you? When he wasn't around.

[Jemima]

But they split up when I was 7 and divorced when I was 9.

[Jamie Laing]

Same to my parents. Divorced when I was around. Yeah. Split up seven, eight. Divorced.

[Jemima]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

It's a tricky time for. As an individual. Not just the divorce time, obviously, that's tricky, but as a. In terms of growth, it's a real sort of precious time, I think, because you're still in that stage where I found that it's like parents are everything. And then suddenly that separates. You're a bit like, well, the world's pretty scary because what's happening here and you don't really understand it as well. So I didn't process it very well.

[Jemima]

Right, interesting.

[Jamie Laing]

I really didn't process it at all well.

[Jemima]

I think my. The difference there is I was happy. I was like, oh, thank God. It just be me, my mum and my sister, we can just frolic around. This is vibes.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow. Yeah.

[Jemima]

I was like, the vibes in this house are not good. So once he was gone, I was like, oh, yes.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. I mean, that's an amazing truth.

[Jemima]

And yeah, I was like, yeah. I mean, but explain that to.

[Jamie Laing]

What were the vibes in the house before?

[Jemima]

It wasn't a good environment, I think. I think hostile.

[Jamie Laing]

Anything like that.

[Jemima]

Yeah, I think he. I think he was just. Again, as an adult and once I've unpacked in therapy, I just think lots. He's probably. Well, neurodivergency is paternal, so he most probably had ADHD and. Or autism. And I think he just had a lot of sensory overload. He wasn't able to regulate his emotions that well. And I think when you're in the household receiving that, that can make you. Well, that's what made me quite an anxious child. So then when he was out, I was like, thank goodness. And then as I got older, you know, you unpack, you. You develop, you know, you start to seek connection. And I think I was really boy crazy when I was a teen, which is crazy because I am a gigantic lesbian, but I was really boy crazy when I was a teenager. And even now thinking about it's probably because I was trying to seek some, like a male love. And then as I got older, and, you know, lockdown happened, and you unpack things. I was like, I've got males in my life that I love. I've always had boy best friends throughout my life. So I'm like, I've got the males in my life that I love. I've got. I've got that. I don't actually like any of these. I don't like them. I don't fancy them. I don't want to be with them. And then when he passed away, it was. That was when the real growth happened. Because it was like, you can place blame and put anger on a person whilst they're still alive, but when they're not, it's just like you're smacking something at the wall when it comes straight back at you.

[Jamie Laing]

Totally. And that's dangerous.

[Jemima]

Yeah, exactly. So I had to really unpack and forgive myself and forgive him and lots of active imagination where I just kind of close my eyes and think my past and reassure in my inner child stuff and, like, really do the work. Okay.

[Jamie Laing]

I don't want to get. I don't want to get too. And if I'm going too far, please push back. And I also.

[Jemima]

I'm an oversharer.

[Jamie Laing]

Fine. And I want to be respectful as well. But. But. So the. But what I'm gauging is that perhaps your. Your father. That the household wasn't a pleasant household to be living in. Maybe anger and aggression and things like that, or.

[Jemima]

Yeah. But again, after doing the work, I'm like, you just probably really undiagnosed, neurodivergent, and doesn't justify it. But I think when you have context and once you've forgiven someone and yourself, it's easier to look back and be like, yeah, you were just probably really unregulated, didn't know how to deal with your own emotions, and took that out on the people closest to you who are in close proximity to you. And I learned from that time, from my childhood. When I think back to it, I'm like, as much as my dad wasn't great, I'm like, but I also had a mum who was really great. And I've started just taking control of my brain a little bit more and being like, well, I can actually. Maybe I'm gonna pick things from my childhood that I actually want to take with me and keep and let go of the things that I don't. I had a really great mum who acted like a mum and a dad. She did the best that she could. So funny. Made me feel so safe. I can Cry to her all the time I can. There's so much love that I was, that I did have. And now I've got the tools to be able to look back and be like, I'm going to take this and this and this and just leave the, Leave the faf. Because that doesn't serve me. I've unpacked it, I've healed from it. I've forgiven myself, forgiven him. So I don't need to.

[Jamie Laing]

That's beautiful.

[Jemima]

Thank you.

[Jamie Laing]

No, that really is. It's an amazing way to be. And, and yeah, I, I always live by a sort of rule which is. I, I don't know, I can't remember where the quote comes from, but it's. Seeking revenge is like drinking poison and wanting another person to die.

[Jemima]

Yes.

[Jamie Laing]

It only hurts yourself.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And as much as it's painful to try to forgive and let go, we must try and do that in life.

[Jemima]

Forgiveness is for yourself. I think the same with resentment as well. Like when I've learned or my idea of resentment is that person is just again a mirror for all of the times where you didn't acknowledge your own like boundaries. Does that make sense if you know you're in a toxic relationship, again, not an abusive physically or something like that, that person has got their own things that they're going through and should not take that on you. But I think if you're just in kind of a toxic relationship and you've got loads of resentment, I think that's just a mirror of every time you look at them, it's a reminder that you neglected your own boundaries or you didn't show yourself that respect that you needed to. And every time you look at them you're like, it's just a reminder of that. So when you forgive yourself and shed this. I think most of life is about surrendering to it. And the resistance is what causes us to be ill and not be okay. When you just surrender to everything happening, life becomes so much easier to manage.

[Jamie Laing]

That's so much harder to do as well. It's so funny. Do you know what I find so strange is, it's like, I think as humans we, I think it's like an evolutional thing, like evolutionary thing which is like the same. We always thought the saber toothed tiger was out there. So survival always be scared. The stick breaking behind you in the middle of the night isn't, you know, your neighbor saying hi, it's something scary.

[Jemima]

Right.

[Jamie Laing]

So we lean into that sort of suffering place. It's much easier for us to Lean into the suffering. Be a victim. It's much harder to not be and be positive and happy and take the good things out. And so I think in life you have to try as much as it's difficult to not lean into that sense of suffering.

[Jemima]

Yeah. But it's almost. You have to be aware that you're doing it. Because sometimes I can get super anxious about something or find myself ruminating, and then I'll just be like. When I'm in tune with my body, I'll be like, we're literally tense. So first of all, let's just take a breath and actually just relax all of our limbs. We've got the tools. Let the. Let the feeling flow through you. It will pass, as will everything. You. You are like. I think we have to give ourselves enough credit. We are stronger than we are told we are by society and all of those things. Like, we are very strong humans. When you feel an emotion, you have got the. You can just let it flow through you. It doesn't have to. You don't have to be like, no, I shouldn't feel this. I don't want to feel this. Just feel it. Just feel it. And it will pass. And then you can go about your day.

[Jamie Laing]

How did your dad die? Quickly?

[Jemima]

Cancer. Yeah, it's the. It's. It's not a good one, is it?

[Jamie Laing]

Not a good one.

[Jemima]

No, no. But it was. It was two years, so. He got diagnosed when I was 18. It was in and out of remission, and then he passed Christmas Day.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm really sorry. You've just. It says. It says. Yeah, but grief, you know, back to back is like. It's. It's tricky.

[Jemima]

Yeah. I guess it's happened when I've been quite young, 20 and 24. But again, I think it's part of my story and it's allowed me to be more vulnerable than I've ever been in my life.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

And it allowed me to connect with everyone in my life on a way deeper level. And I've had people in my life like, oh, my gosh, when I eventually experience grief, I feel like I'll be safe around you.

[Jamie Laing]

I think this is why your music is so amazing.

[Jemima]

Thank you.

[Jamie Laing]

Because I think what you. As you said, what you do is you encapsulate feelings and emotions, and you're very honest. You know, one of your songs about coming out is, you know, is queer. And that's quite a bold thing to talk about in a song. Right. Cause it's a very personal thing to you. But you decide to make music about it.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Which I think is amazing.

[Jemima]

Yeah. That's why I make music in the first place and why I love music, because it is therapy. And there's something about, like, it could be really hard for someone to say something, but to sing it is easier in a way of a poem. And I just found, I think, again, not in a mean way, but our lives aren't that unique. We're all in the same simulation. We're all on the same earth. So music is a way, I think, to connect people to each other, because there might be someone sitting in their room who's isolated themselves and is like, I'm the only one going through this thing. Like, life is just awful. I can't. Like, I don't know why this is happening to me. And then they can slap on a song and someone's talking about that exact scenario and being like, oh, the song has literally been written for me. I'm not alone in this. Maybe. Maybe these things do happen to everybody. It might be a really awful breakup or death or something. And being able to listen to a song where someone else has experienced that exact thing and being like, oh, my God, I'm not alone, is such a comforting feeling, especially as someone who feels different from everybody else and wanting to seek connection in every way possible.

[Jamie Laing]

That's amazing. And that's why you connect so much with your, like, audience of people who love you, because you've. They connect obviously with you so well.

[Jemima]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Talk to me about autism and adhd. So adhd, how. Firstly with adhd. Let's start there. How did that manifest itself? How did that happen? How did you get the diagnosis as a kid?

[Jemima]

So I got my ADHD diagnosis when I was 21.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow.

[Jemima]

The relationship I was in at the time, she was like, you are showing all of these traits that I think you really do have adhd. And I was like, what are you on about? No, I don't. And then I looked it up and I went, oh, maybe I. Maybe I do. Maybe I actually do have this. And then I. I went to go and get a diagnosis and do the. Do the assessment, and they were like, yeah, you have adhd. And then when I told my mom, my mom was like, well, maybe I have adhd. I do all of these things.

[Jamie Laing]

Was it. Was it a helpful thing when the diagnosis happened?

[Jemima]

Yeah, yeah, it was. Because with both diagnosis, I. It just gives me. I am. I give myself more grace in situations. I think before I would beat myself up so much because I think ADHD in Girls especially, shows itself completely differently to how it does boys and in what ways. So in school, for example, when you think of ADHD in general, in general, you think of, like, the boy in the corner who's just like, super loud and it's like shaking, can't keep still, and he's just like, yapping and noise, just doing something. But then there could be a girl literally sat next to him underneath the table, legs shaking. She's, like, playing with her hands, she's like, struggling to focus on what the teacher's saying. But usually neurodivergent girls are still super smart and can still meet the deadlines and still get things done, but you just don't see the journey it took in order to get to that end sort of result. So it's like, even now, I could have a task to complete and I just will look at it and I just, God, I can't do it. And I'll wake up, go, we've got to do this. We've got to do this thing. We've got to do it. Everyone's asking for it, we've got to do it. And I go to do it and.

[Jamie Laing]

I just go, what is your. What does your brain do when that happens? Because I know what mine does, but.

[Jemima]

I want to hear just like paralysis. I just look at and I just go, I actually cannot do it. And then if someone asks me to do it, like, my manager would like, she'll go, have you done it? And I'll just go, well, I'm not even doing it anymore. I won't do it. I wasn't going to do it then, and I'm definitely not going to do it now. Now you've asked me to do it, I'm not doing it at all. And then it will be like, you have to do it right now because they're asking for it right now.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm not.

[Jemima]

What if I don't?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, yeah, I'm not.

[Jemima]

What happens if I don't do it? What happens? Am I gonna die? No. And then, like, what if they said.

[Jamie Laing]

I won't like you.

[Jemima]

Once? It's like, I absolutely have to do it, then I'll. Then I'll just get a mad head and I'll do every single task I've ever meant to do in, like, 10 minutes. So it's like it's either one extreme or the other.

[Jamie Laing]

Have you ever taken medication for it?

[Jemima]

I have, but I just didn't really find it really worked for me. I just found generally just exercising and eating better and just having a bit of a routine of set things that I always do. More helpful than the medication.

[Jamie Laing]

You have to be quite disciplined, though, in that area. Right. So with the training and the eating and that's a really. Where just wake up and taking some medication, I suppose, is much easier than that. That road, especially for someone with adhd.

[Jemima]

Yeah, it's a. It's a. It's a hard thing. I think the only reason why I've. I've gotten to this point and sometimes you need like a. A shock thing to happen or something like drastic in your life to happen for you to just want to make a change. So for me, it was like my granddad passing. I was like, just. I was waking up at 6am every day super anxious. And then I would be like, well, I can either lay in my bed anxious and just feel stressed, or I can go on a walk. So then I just would go on a walk. So I started. And then I would feel the. The whatever it is, serotonin or dopamine or something that came from just being outside and talking to myself. And then I was like, well, if I'm waking up at this time anyway, why don't I just go to the gym? And it was kind of like, maybe I'll just start embracing a new change. And then after you do something for I guess it's like a month or two or whatever, it starts to just become part of your routine that if you don't do it, it. And then you're like, sad. You're like, why am I sad? And you're like, oh, I didn't go on a run today. Or, oh, I didn't go to the gym today. So it's like sometimes it takes something big in your life occurring for you to actually want to make that change. Because before that I was just like, what?

[Jamie Laing]

How old are you? When your grandfather died in April.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Ken, I'm sorry.

[Jemima]

That's all right. See, even things like this, I'm. I'm too neurodivergent for my own good.

[Jamie Laing]

But that's okay. That's. It's fine to be that way. You don't. And don't. Don't defend yourself. No need.

[Jemima]

Yeah, I mean, it was. It was. I mean, he was 89. He had a long life. The way he went was the way that everybody wants to. You're on your deathbed and you look at everyone that you've created. You take your last breath and then you go. It's like what everyone could want. So I. I think throughout this year, it's, it's like been a super defining moment in my life because I've just had to deal with good old fashioned grief, which I learned is just love. So anytime I am sad or I have a wave of grief because it just comes randomly, I just remind myself that I'm just feeling a load of love without a place to put it yet.

[Jamie Laing]

That's an amazing way to put it.

[Jemima]

It's exactly what it is. I think it's, it's not. I think it genuinely. I think grief is just so much an overwhelming amount of love, which is why we end up crying and we feel like we're feeling really sad, but I just think we're feeling so much love that can no longer place to this person anymore and we don't know where to place it yet. And over time, as you say yes to more things and you open yourself up to receive love and give love, you find new places to put it. And obviously you'll still have waves of missing them because you wish you could give them that love, but it is just, it's just all love.

[Jamie Laing]

You're so in tune. Why? And this, I really don't want this to come off patronizing in any way, but you're 24, right?

[Jemima]

I am, yes.

[Jamie Laing]

Your emotional intelligence is.

[Jemima]

Thank you.

[Jamie Laing]

Uber. Hi.

[Jemima]

Thank you so much.

[Jamie Laing]

That's okay. You're welcome. It's your certificate.

[Jemima]

Thank you. So.

[Jamie Laing]

And that's the end of the podcast. But it is. You're so in tune. And for someone I would consider quite young, it's, it's, it's a bit of a superpower because it's a super. But also a curse because it means you think so deeply, but also you understand things much easier. Where did you get that from? Why did you learn? Was it something in your life you had to learn quickly? You had to understand emotion?

[Jemima]

Yeah, again, I think, because, I mean, I was undiagnosed autism until last year. And I think I've always struggled with understanding people emotions, why we do what we do, why we feel what we feel. And I've always kind of been obsessed with like monks and people who just seem to like not let life rock them. They sort of just surrender to everything and they accept the ebbs and flows and highs and lows of life. And I was always like, like, I want to be that type of person. Like, I find life so overwhelming. How can I not? And I've always been interested in just spirituality and mastering yourself. And again, when my granddad passed, I just did a Massive deep dive into reading a load of books and just learning like how everything, when you I sound, I'm gonna sound a bit Kumbaya, my Lord, I love that. But I learned that everything is a mirror. Every relationship with someone is a mirror. And I just, I, I learned, Explain.

[Jamie Laing]

What do you mean by a mirror? Because I, I know what you're meaning. But someone listening.

[Jemima]

For example, if you find yourself kind of always in toxic relationships, you only meet people where you've met yourself. So if you don't view yourself to high regard, you will attract somebody that also doesn't view themselves in high regard. So then you're not going to treat each other with the respect that you both deserve. Whereas if you meet yourself at a place where you've done the work to, to know how something makes you feel. Like you could be in a relationship where someone brings up something and instead of blaming them, you're like, wait, this has triggered me. Why has this triggered me? Let me do a deep dive into what this stems from. And you start to just look at things as less as like so many things are happening to me. And you start to think of life as coming from you and everything is your perspective. So if inconveniences happen, it's just an inconvenience. Doesn't mean that the universe is out to get you can just mean that this thing happened and it's. Everything is how you react to something.

[Jamie Laing]

I, I'm going through this at the moment, like literally, literally at the moment, understanding how everything's a mirror and because I, I, I was triggered by so many things. Right. Especially in my relationship with my wife where she would get angry for something and of course the closest person to her would be me. And it would, that would happen. I would get triggered because she was angry because I was always dubbed a naughty kid. So I would think I'm being told off again. So I would get angry because I'm being told off for something that's not my fault.

[Jemima]

Yes.

[Jamie Laing]

And that would, and I'm realizing that was that pattern that I was into until I finally put the mirror on myself. I said, wait, hang on. So why am I doing this? Yeah, but it took me to 30s. Sorry, it took me to 29.

[Jemima]

Took you to 36.

[Jamie Laing]

36 years of age.

[Jemima]

But you get there, when you get there, everybody's path and journey it takes goes in a different way. Like I think I, I realize I, my people pleasing tendencies and just general desire again, not to be in trouble would cause me to tell little white lies. About things because when I was younger I would get in trouble. I couldn't. If I told the truth, I'd get in trouble about certain things. So then I was like, okay, so maybe I should, you know, maybe tell a lie then. And then you grow up telling little white lies and then you end up in relationships and they go, why did you lie about this little thing? And I go, oh, I thought you, I thought you were going to tell me off.

[Jamie Laing]

So like what, Give me an example of that.

[Jemima]

It could be something as simple to.

[Jamie Laing]

Make you sound more interesting. You would give white lies or.

[Jemima]

No, it's, it's genuinely, it be a, I don't do this anymore. But it was, it's like a, it's like a safety thing. It's kind of like if someone has shown that they're up, they might be upset by something or you don't know how they're going to react. I would just be like, okay, well I'll maybe won't tell you this thing that I've done. I just, I won't tell you. And it's not, it's nothing to the extent of like cheating or things like that. It's just like I just won't tell you this little thing that I've done then. But then when you find out I haven't told you, they're like, why did you lie about that?

[Jamie Laing]

I'm like, that is so good. I, I, I, I, I, I'm so, I know exactly what you're talking about. I, this sounds so strange, but I, I prime example of me. I used to do the same. I used to tell white lies because telling the truth in that moment was so much more difficult.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

So I'd rather not tell the truth then. And to tell a white lie because I'm sure they'd find out in the future. But, but that future was far away. So, so I don't need to live in the, in the present moment. It's easier to lie.

[Jemima]

Yes.

[Jamie Laing]

And I used to do that all the time because it was people pleasing technique.

[Jemima]

It is.

[Jamie Laing]

I remember when I was a kid and there was, there was a party called the Feathers which is like a young person's ball. And tickets to this party were quite hard. I said to, I reckon 30 people, I had tickets for them.

[Jemima]

So you did that so that they could like you.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

Right. Okay.

[Jamie Laing]

The day before I had to let down 20 of them.

[Jemima]

Oh my God.

[Jamie Laing]

Because I only had 10 tickets.

[Jemima]

Oh my gosh.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. And I used to do that all the time. I used to lie. Like, little white lies. People say, oh, can I come to this? Or. Or certain feelings or, hey, do you want to come to hang out with me this weekend? Yeah, sure. Find out. Because if I. If I also rejected people, then I thought they would feel bad and also reject me. So I didn't want to do that either. It's very strange technique.

[Jemima]

It is, but I think. I think conversations and dealing with people anyway is like a tennis match. Like, it's. You kind of. It does need to be a safe space on the receiving end. If you are with people who, when you do decide to tell the truth. Truth. Make it a safe space, then you feel more comfortable to tell the truth more often.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Jemima]

You know, but if you're met with. When you do tell the truth, their reaction is a certain way, especially for people pleasers. I think trying to find secure people who can just respond in a secure way to anything you say is so ideal for breaking out of the white lies and maybe being dubbed as, like, not an honest person because they're making it a safe space for you to share that. You know, totally.

[Jamie Laing]

With autism, when you said that, you were always analyzing. You always sort of felt that you were, I suppose, maybe different in the room. How did it manifest for you? Autism? How did you know that perhaps you were potentially different to others?

[Jemima]

I think the fundamental thing with autism and why most people who end up getting diagnosed with autism, especially later on in life, is genuinely feeling inherently different from everybody else. You just feel like you're doing life wrong, and you feel like there's, like. For me, it feels like there's, like, hidden cameras everywhere, and, like, someone's just gonna be like, stop. That wasn't the right way to say that. Let's do that again. Let's say that again, Katrina. Let's do that again. And I'll go, oh, sorry. So most of, like, my life, I just felt very different from people. I struggled to connect with people and speak to people, and I was such a sponge when I was younger. Luckily, I had an older sibling, so I just copied everything she did, how she acted, her sense of humor, which is why, if you meet her now, she's like, I just molded you into me. You are just me, but six years younger. And I'm like, yeah, because I didn't know what I was doing. So then after I got my ADHD diagnosis, I was like, something still doesn't feel all the way correct up here. Something else is going on.

[Jamie Laing]

Something else.

[Jemima]

Something else is happening. I don't want to know what it is. And then I, and then I started doing some more like research into autism and how it shows up in girls. And I was like, I really identify with this. Like I, even when I'm like when I'm speaking to you, I'm really conscious of giving you eye contact. But usually if I'm listening to somebody I, or like talking, I'm not looking in the person's face but I'm like, I have to look at you. So therefore I'm like, look, look, look, look, look. So there's like so many social things that I've been conditioned to do and learn or be in a group and like someone says a joke and laughs, I don't find that funny. But I'm just hahaha laugh along. And it's just sort of like somehow going through life just sort of going.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, so then you feel awkward, right, because you, and then that gives you a sense of social anxiety. So then situations give you complete social anxiety because you think you're going to do something wrong because you don't feel like you're fitting in.

[Jemima]

Yes, correct. And I think I, the only reason, I think one, I'm late diagnosed. But I, I also, I loved films growing up, loved musical theater, loved everything to do with the arts. So I think that helped me come out of my shell more and also made me kind of have quite an animated voice and how I speak. But that's just based on the things that I watch and the things that I've consumed, which I think is the case for a lot of autistic people who vary on the spectrum. You might meet someone who they speak like, my gosh, you've watched this show and that is how you just communicate and speak. And I'm the same, yeah. Because I just recite film words all the time, just random films. I just recite them because that I've just. I was such a sponge because I was like, how do I exist in the world? Let me watch films, let me watch TV shows. Because I just found people confusing and scary. So I would just like watch TV and film and animations. And that was where I started to develop my personality, which is just all of those films.

[Jamie Laing]

So what was the films?

[Jemima]

Oh well, we've got Shark Tale, me and Shark Tale. I could recite most words from that. Yeah, me and Shark Tale are like this one of my other favorite films.

[Jamie Laing]

Shark Tales animation, right?

[Jemima]

Yeah. Yes, One of my other favorite films, it's called Meet the Robinsons. No one seems to know about that. It's the Best animation film that I've ever seen in my life came out in 2007. It's random, but it's fabulous. I also, not to make you feel stressed out, I was obsessed with maiden Chelsea.

[Jamie Laing]

Were you?

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Oh, that does stress me out a little.

[Jemima]

Well, only because I recite so many lines.

[Jamie Laing]

God, give me some.

[Jemima]

Oh, no one's quite bad. It was. It was at the dinner party. Yeah, this is the early season. The early season was quite fab.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, it was pretty good.

[Jemima]

It was. It was really juicy. So there was one dinner party, and I can't remember who said it to who, but someone I can swear, right? Yeah, you can swear someone. Called someone a fat turkey. That was crazy. Or it was when I think it was. I think it was Millie. Where she went, this is what you've done. This is what you done to her.

[Jamie Laing]

Unbelievable.

[Jemima]

Smack Spencer across the face. And in school, me and my friends would act that out. We would act out that scene over and over again. Me and my sister do it. Still to this day.

[Jamie Laing]

Still to this day.

[Jemima]

Still to this day. Yeah. Or when he goes, oh, what's the thing that Spencer says? He's like, you let me.

[Jamie Laing]

Why would you.

[Jemima]

When you allow me to cheat on you?

[Jamie Laing]

Sorry.

[Jemima]

What? It was crazy. Crazy times, man. And then Louise tried to smack Spencer, but he learned from me. He learned from last time and dodged it. I just thought, whoa, is everyone up on my grill? Who says grill? It was just so many words. Oh, gosh. Making Chelsea was a beautiful show. It was just a really, really, really great show. Really, really great. Oh, and Spencer didn't like Andy.

[Jamie Laing]

Oh, God, I'm so good.

[Jemima]

He just laughed. I loved being Chelsea.

[Jamie Laing]

Learn from aborted dodging. He did. Yeah, he did. He got it.

[Jemima]

She wanted to get it. And I thought, oh, Louise, you're too small as well. You can't reach him. Then he just dodged it. She was like, what a time to be alive. That was a crazy time. If you're a facilities manager at a university, you know students rely on the.

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[Jamie Laing]

You'Re the song Free, right? Which is about coming out. Why do you title it Free?

[Jemima]

I think the chorus just was like free. And I was like, let's call it that. But it is, that's, it's a, it's a, a freeing thing. I think the song itself is, is me coming out to my mum. And although I have the most accepting, loving family, at first there was just a little bit of fear that my mum had of just like safety wise if you're, you know, too loud about your queerness, especially with the career that you have, it might just be there might be people that want to cause you harm. And, and so she was kind of like maybe, maybe don't share it too much. And so when I was writing the song, I was like, no, I'm too far gone now. And you were the person I was this most scared to share this with. And now I've shared it with you. I'm. I'm free. Anybody else, I don't. I don't really care. And I think that song is one of the reasons why I do music in the first place, because I still get messages from people saying they use that song to come out to their parents. They just sent it to them, and their parents could understand what they were feeling better, or they're in countries where it's just illegal, and they can listen to that song and be free within their head. So I think the free is. Is. It could be internal, it could be external. It's just that feeling of finally accepting yourself and stepping into your truth.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. Which is like that sense when you find your. You're behaving in the way that you truly are. That's the. It's true. It's this when you feel most liberal, that's when you feel free suddenly, Right?

[Jemima]

Absolutely. As soon as I came out, I just. Just learned so much about myself. I was like, wait. How I've been dressing has been for validation from men. I don't care for their validation. I don't want it. So maybe how do I actually want to dress? How do I actually want to exist in the world? How. How do I actually want to be? And I just started to exist for myself, which naturally just radiates in everything that I do because I'm being my authentic self.

[Jamie Laing]

So when did you realize you like girls?

[Jemima]

So I went to an event, like, November 2019, and I got really drunk, and there was this other, like, lesbian artist there, and I was like, to. Sometimes I have gay thoughts, but I'm not gay. And she was like, okay, okay, thanks.

[Jamie Laing]

For spilling that on me.

[Jemima]

She was like, well, it's okay if you are. And I was like, well, I know it's okay, but I'm not, so don't worry about that. And then I woke up the next day, and I was like, why the hell did I say that? Why did I. Why have I ever said that? Why did I say that? I don't. Do I feel that way? What? And then I had a few more months before lockdown happened that I could just push that to the back of my head. Still tried to date men. Funny enough, the last man I dated prior to coming out was like, oh, the girl I was last seeing that came out as gay. And I was like, well, don't have to worry about that. With me, you don't have to worry about that. That's not at all. And then I did. Then I came out he must be like, what the hell is wrong with me?

[Jamie Laing]

What am I doing wrong?

[Jemima]

What am I giving off?

[Jamie Laing]

Attracting lesbians, turning everyone gay? I don't really get it.

[Jemima]

Yeah, that's basically his lie. That bad?

[Jamie Laing]

Don't worry. You don't have to worry about that with me.

[Jemima]

Don't worry about that. A month later. All right, guys. Hi, everyone. But then I reach. So I've realized it's actually through social media. It's like Tick tock was at the time when the algorithm was just being really loud.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jemima]

I was just scrolling. And then it would be like, you're gay every so often. Tick tock. That would just be like.

[Jamie Laing]

Tick tock was silly.

[Jemima]

Yeah. Yes. I would scroll and then it would be like, if you're watching this, you're gay. And obviously you can only things. Can only me touch a nerve? If it's true. So I guess as it scrolled and it said you were gay, I was like, am I? Maybe I am. I think I am. I think I am. And then I started to see different sort of creators that were queer and they were girls. And I was like, oh, I think I find these women attractive. And I realized, for me, anyway, I. I'm not one of those queer women that enjoy straight women or want to. Want to see if they can explain. No, if. What If I know you're a queer woman, I will find you attractive if I know that you are a straight woman. You are not remotely desirable to me in any way, shape or form. So I think that's why it also took me a minute to realize whether I liked girls, because I wasn't around queer women. And then once I did that, it just spiraled from there. I thought I was bisexual. I wasn't. And I was like, yeah. And then once I got into my first relationship, I was like, yeah, I'm not. I will never, ever be with a man ever again.

[Jamie Laing]

Have you ever had your heart broken?

[Jemima]

Yeah. Have I? Oh, brother.

[Jamie Laing]

You want to talk about it?

[Jemima]

I mean, out of respect for the other person, I won't.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay.

[Jemima]

But I have had my heart broken and women loving women. Breakups are hell on earth. I thought I was going to die. Yeah, I actually thought I was going to die. I woke up. I woke up and I was like, I'm in hell. I. This is awful. This is awful. I went to my mom's room, laid on top of her, and I was like, I think I might die. And then my mum was like, yeah, when I had my first breakup, too, my mum walked in and saw me just rocking on the floor, just screaming and crying. And when she told me that I stopped crying, I went, sorry, what did you just say to me? She was like, yeah, I was screaming and crying and rocking from side to side on the floor. And I was like, oh, okay. This is a universal experience. Then okay, I feel a little bit safer.

[Jamie Laing]

You need other sort of validation from outside sources.

[Jemima]

Because I was like, mom, this is hell. Hell. Like, this is awful. And then she was like, yeah, no, I've. I've been there as well. You will. You will get through it. I can't tell you when, but you will.

[Jamie Laing]

It is. For anyone who's experiencing a breakup right now, it is the worst feeling in the world. Mine was so bad. My f. When I had my heart broken. I think I had my heart broken once when I was like, 15, 16, and the whole thing was chaos. But then in the morning, I. I went and got into the shower, and I. And I thought it was a dream, but then I realized it was like, there, and I was on my hands and knees and I punched the ground. I Honestly, One of this.

[Jemima]

I Honestly. You're on your hands and knees in the shower.

[Jamie Laing]

In the shower. Like a little cue in the shower. And I. And I went. And I went, no. Punch the floor of the shower.

[Jemima]

The. No. Before it starts. Me. Oh, my goodness. Wow. That'll do it to you. Nothing beats the crier. The crier. The shower cry, where you're just, like. Your tears become one with the water, and you're just like, what is my life? Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

But also, I don't face it. I face away. So the image of me.

[Jemima]

That could be an album cover.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, yeah. No, no. But before I do it, just me in the shower, pissing away from it. Just in deep, deep Sabbaths, slightly hunched, sitting on a chair.

[Jemima]

I know what. When you come out of, like, when you come out the other end of it and you're just like, I was a lunatic then.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was. Changes your whole chemistry in your brain.

[Jemima]

Yeah, it does. It does. But it's. But it. It's also. It means you love someone really deeply and your body is adjusting to the fact that you can no longer love them.

[Jamie Laing]

Are you passing it.

[Jemima]

Again? I think life is a wonderful thing. I don't really like when people say, like, moving on or getting. Getting over some. I think something at the start of that. At the start of breakup, I always think, like, how am I going to be able to get over this? Because all it is, is you've loved someone for so long, and you now no longer can love them. I think my biggest struggle was the dynamic shift of going from this person was my safe person, someone I could unmask around to no longer. Our conversations are going to be really, like, cold. And I can't know anything about their life, and they can't know anything about my life. And that dynamic shift was really hard. Hard because I. When I love people, I love people really deeply. And then over time, I accepted. It's like, you don't have to. It's not about stopping that. It's just embracing your new life and embracing and being open to other things that life have in store. And just affirmations helped me a lot. Yeah, affirmations were my best friend. Every day I'll just go. I released myself and every. And there's. I think there's a film. Eat Pray. I think it's Eat Pray Love.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, it's great.

[Jemima]

Where she's like, oh, but I miss him or something. And he's like, yeah, you can miss him. And every time you do, just send him love. Just send love his way and. And go about your day.

[Jamie Laing]

It's so true. Affirmations for me have been a complete game changer in so many ways. I have enjoyed this whole conversation.

[Jemima]

So have I.

[Jamie Laing]

It's been really amazing. And what I now know is, before you go on stage, if I see you again, I'm just gonna come up to you and say, so what's the meaning of life?

[Jemima]

Take out my ears. Well, I missed the intro because I'm just yapping away.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, you're amazing. You truly are. You're amazing. And you're such an inspiration to so many people, so many young people, and just a way to live life and be free and be yourself. And also, it's okay to feel awkward and to feel different in certain ways, but I just love it. We like to end the conversation with eight questions. You ready for this?

[Jemima]

Hit me.

[Jamie Laing]

What's the Sega phrase that always makes you smile or cheers you up?

[Jemima]

Every day the sun won't shine, but that's why I love tomorrow. Glorilla.

[Jamie Laing]

There we go. Best compliment anyone's ever given you.

[Jemima]

Your aura is really nice. Anything to do with energy or aura. I'm like, oh, thank you so much.

[Jamie Laing]

I ditto that. It's amazing. What scares you most about yourself?

[Jemima]

How big my feelings can be.

[Jamie Laing]

That's a beautiful thing.

[Jemima]

Yeah. But like. Like, when I have a big breakdown, I have. They're big, and it's just like, whoa, Chill out, man.

[Jamie Laing]

When was the last time you cried and why?

[Jemima]

Yesterday, maybe the day before. Why was I even crying? I think I, I think I honestly was like agitated. I was overstimulated that day and I think I, I, I knocked my, like my, you know, when the door knob like humbles you, like, just like, I've had enough of this day. I've had enough and I just shed a tear.

[Jamie Laing]

What's something you can't let go of?

[Jemima]

Soft mints. You know, treble soft mints. Green or blue?

[Jamie Laing]

That's a great answer. What's your guilty pleasure?

[Jemima]

My guilty pleasure, mate.

[Jamie Laing]

Of Chelsea.

[Jemima]

Well, sometimes it is maiden Chelsea, but it is actually Geordie Shaw out of nowhere.

[Jamie Laing]

Is it really?

[Jemima]

Maiden Chelsea, Towie and Geordie Shaw were my shows growing up. But I can re watch Geordie Shaw. I'm rewatching it now from the beginning.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, you're not.

[Jemima]

From season one to 11, I will rewatch over and over again.

[Jamie Laing]

What turns you off.

[Jemima]

Of people who are mean to hospitality staff?

[Jamie Laing]

Very good. What turns you on?

[Jemima]

Intellectual conversation.

[Jamie Laing]

What do you like most about yourself?

[Jemima]

I think I'm quite funny.

[Jamie Laing]

You are very funny. Last one. Favorite swear word.

[Jemima]

Have you ever seen that Miranda Cosgrove interview where she goes, probably, but I actually think maybe it's something like, like covering. My favorite one is Tracy Be when she says bog off. But that's not a swear word.

[Jamie Laing]

C. Thank you so much.

[Jemima]

Thank you so much.

[Jamie Laing]

What a legend.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

That was very funny.

[Jamie Laing]

She's great.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

She's so funny.

[Jamie Laing]

She's.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

I could listen to her for hours.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, she's funny, she's interested, she's interesting. She, her sort of take on the world is amazing. And I love how she goes through life with laughter. That's my favorite thing.

[Jemima]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

She doesn't like small talk, but I.

[Jamie Laing]

Think I made her feel comfortable now.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

Yeah. But I just love that she was like, ask me the meaning of life.

[Unknown Speaker (Advertisement)]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And then I'm in small talk I can't do, which I think so many people relate to.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

I can do small talk and big talk. I can't do medium talk. I love small talk.

[Jamie Laing]

I can kind of do both. I think.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

I love a little bit of chit chat. But ask me me, how's your week been? How you. I'm to switch off.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, fine. I get it, I get it.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

Ask me about the weather or the meaning of life.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, I can, I can flip into all of them, but I do like deep talk a lot.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

Oh, yeah, same. I mean, we just saw that we.

[Jamie Laing]

Just saw that in there. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in. We really appreciate it.

[Unknown Speaker (Guest)]

Just shout out to the owls. I've not mentioned the owls in a while.

[Jamie Laing]

Our wonderful listeners and PJ over here would love you to let us know what you think of the show. And so would I. You can slide into our DMS at Great Company podcast. Send us an email Great Company atjampa product productions.co.uk everything is in the show description and if you haven't subscribed to the show, watch our YouTube please do. Guys, we're going to see you next week. We cannot wait every single Wednesday for another episode of Great Company. See you later.

[Cat Burns]

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