DR ALIZA PRESSMAN: THE HIDDEN IMPACT OF PARENT'S MENTAL HEALTH ON CHILDREN

Summary

Great Company with Jamie Laing
Episode Title: Dr. Eliza Pressman: The Hidden Impact of Parents' Mental Health on Children
Release Date: March 26, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In this insightful episode of Great Company with Jamie Laing, host Jamie delves deep into the intricate connections between parents' mental health and the developmental outcomes in children. Joining him is esteemed guest Dr. Eliza Pressman, a developmental psychologist renowned for her expertise in childhood trauma and family dynamics.

Guest Introduction

Jamie Laing begins by introducing Dr. Eliza Pressman:

"Eliza was so interesting. She actually arrived a little bit late. Oh, yeah. She was stuck in traffic. And we made quite a bit of a joke about it, which was quite funny. But she was incredible. She is a childhood expert. She looks at childhood and sees how it creates trauma within us, how everything that we are as humans is developed when we were young."
[03:06] Jamie Laing

Dr. Eliza Pressman elaborates on her role:

"I love working with families who are kind of saying, like, oh, my God, what just happened? I'm in charge of a whole human or multiple humans, and it's hard for me."
[04:56] Eliza Pressman

The Importance of Childhood in Development

Dr. Pressman emphasizes the critical periods of brain development:

"The first three years of life is when the majority of our brain is developed, but there's still another huge growth during the adolescent years. And then... you don't fully develop your brain until sometime between 18 and 30 and it's later for boys."
[07:01] Eliza Pressman

The Impact of Caregiving on Brain Growth

A profound discussion unfolds on how caregiving influences brain development:

"The brain is open to change and have positive growth during the onset of parenthood... the act of caregiving can grow your brain."
[08:16] Eliza Pressman

Dr. Pressman challenges common misconceptions:

"Mom brain or dad brain or whatever it is, is actually you're reallocating the resources of your brain to things that matter more. Like, I don't care where my keys are, I'm keeping a human alive. But it's actually growth. It's not that your brain is shrinking, which it feels like I'm getting dumber, but actually you're getting smarter."
[09:28] Eliza Pressman

Parental Mental Health and Child Well-being

The conversation highlights the intricate link between a parent's mental health and their child's:

"The mental health of the parent, particularly the primary parent, is inextricably linked to the mental health of the child. It's the most important thing you can do for your child is to take care of your mental health."
[22:42] Jamie Laing

Dr. Pressman provides actionable advice for parents experiencing postpartum depression:

"There are so... There's so much this is such a treatable illness... tell your primary care physician. You don't have to go to a shrink. You just go right to your pediatrician, you go right to your OB-GYN, any of them. And you just say those words and they've got you."
[21:53] Eliza Pressman

Principles of Effective Parenting

Dr. Pressman outlines five scientifically-backed principles of parenting:

1. Relationship

Building strong, connected relationships is foundational.

"Cultivating a close, connected relationship, first with your partner who you're having the baby with... and with your child... Caregiving builds that connection."
[32:46] Eliza Pressman

2. Reflection

Understanding one's own upbringing to inform parenting choices.

"Reflection is really important. Think about what was happening when you were young and decide what you want or don’t want to replicate."
[30:13] Eliza Pressman

3. Regulation

Managing and regulating emotions to model healthy behavior.

"Regulation is being able to regulate our internal experience of emotions so that we don't just scream and yell... It's the operating system that's regulation."
[45:05] Eliza Pressman

4. Repair

Acknowledging and mending ruptures in relationships to strengthen bonds.

"Repair is part of the five principles, which is you're gonna disconnect and connect all day, every day... Relationships get strong through these tiny little repairs."
[48:42] Eliza Pressman

5. Rules

Establishing boundaries and routines to provide structure and security.

"Rules are boundaries and limits. Routines are things where we're saying, hey, I love you, but you still need to go to bed."
[52:21] Eliza Pressman

Advice on Maintaining Parental Relationships

Maintaining a strong partnership post-parenthood is crucial. Dr. Pressman advises:

"Expect that it's going to be really, really hard. Share the focus on the child so that you can love each other... Communication is key."
[38:14] Eliza Pressman

She emphasizes the importance of preemptively discussing parenting styles and values:

"Make a family value statement... talk about it in advance and accept that you're gonna have different styles."
[40:35] Eliza Pressman

Handling Postpartum Depression

Dr. Pressman sheds light on postpartum depression, its prevalence in both mothers and fathers, and its treatability:

"It is a treatable illness... It is crucial for your child because the mental health of the parent is inextricably linked to the mental health of the child."
[22:42] Jamie Laing & [21:36] Eliza Pressman

Final Thoughts and Quick Fire Questions

The episode concludes with a light-hearted quick-fire segment, offering personal insights and reflections from Dr. Pressman:

• Favorite Saying: "I'm not being chased by a shark."
• Best Compliment: "That they feel seen by me."
• What Turns Her Off: "Judgment."
• What Turns Her On: "Thoughtfulness."
• Favorite Swear Word: "Fuck."

Key Takeaways

• Parental Mental Health: Central to a child's emotional and psychological well-being. Parents must prioritize their mental health to foster a nurturing environment.

• Brain Development: Both the early years and the transition to parenthood are critical periods for brain growth. Caregiving activities actively contribute to cognitive development.

• Effective Parenting Principles: Building strong relationships, engaging in self-reflection, regulating emotions, repairing conflicts, and establishing clear rules are essential for raising resilient and well-adjusted children.

• Open Communication: Maintaining open and honest communication between partners strengthens the parental unit and sets a positive example for children.

• Seek Help When Needed: Postpartum depression is a common and treatable condition. Parents should feel empowered to seek professional help without stigma.

Conclusion

This episode of Great Company with Jamie Laing offers a comprehensive exploration of how parents' mental health intricately affects their children's development. Dr. Eliza Pressman's expertise provides listeners with actionable insights and reassurances, emphasizing that nurturing one's mental well-being is a pivotal part of effective parenting.

For more insights and detailed discussions, tune into this episode and explore Dr. Pressman's podcast, Raising Good Humans.

Transcript

[Jamie Laing]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Eliza Pressman]

G'day, America. It's Tony and Ryan from the Tony and Ryan Podcast from Down Under. This episode is sponsored by Boost Mobile, the newest 5G network in the country. These guys are no longer the prepaid wireless company you might remember. They've invested billions into building their own 5G towers across America, transforming the carrier into America's fourth major network alongside the other big dogs. Yep, they're challenging the competitors by working harder and smarter, like this amazing new.

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[Eliza Pressman]

They have blocked blazing fast 5G and plans for all the latest devices. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Jamie Laing]

Hello everyone. My name is Jamie Laing and this is Great company. Well, hello, Jemima. Hi, how are you?

[PJ]

Pj, I was about to say how are you as well? I'm well. Yourself?

[Jamie Laing]

I'm good.

[PJ]

PJ.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm presenter Jamie. Presenter Jamie.

[PJ]

PJ2, PJ1. PJ2, PJ2.

[Jamie Laing]

Hey, and welcome back to our Owls Hoot.

[PJ]

Our wonderful listeners.

[Jamie Laing]

Hoot. Hoot. I think you've hooted. The reason why you want to do this is when we go and do our stage show, which will be at some point, I really want to do that. You want to go to the stage and go, hoot, hoot. And you're going to.

[PJ]

You want to do, like, a slow. Have you ever seen the end of Cool Runnings when they do the slow clap? It's a very, like, a real trope from, like, a 90s, 90s, sports.

[Jamie Laing]

When they're walking with them and they're.

[PJ]

Like, clap, clap, clap, clap. And it turns into, like, a big applause. I want that with, like, hoot, hoot, hoot, hoot. And then it's just, like, loads of hoots.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, we can try and make that happen.

[PJ]

Then you come. Then you, like, you come from the sky. Yeah, like a hawk with. With wings.

[Jamie Laing]

Well, welcome back, everybody. Today we have someone called Eliza Pressman on the show. I actually recorded this while I was in Los Angeles, and you weren't there with me for this.

[PJ]

No, I wasn't. He went rogue.

[Jamie Laing]

I went rogue on this one. Eliza was so interesting. She actually arrived a little bit late. Oh, yeah. She was stuck in traffic. And we made quite a bit of a joke about it, which was quite funny. But she was incredible. She is a childhood expert. She looks at childhood and see how it creates trauma within us, how everything that we are as human is developed when we were young.

[PJ]

That is so interesting.

[Jamie Laing]

Fascinating.

[PJ]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And I'm obsessed with childhood.

[PJ]

I was about to say you're really into your inner child.

[Jamie Laing]

Massively. Massively. And I think everything. So many things that we've learned from when we were kids are kind of brought into everyday life. And so for me, this episode was a real eye opener, and I'm really excited.

[PJ]

And also interesting because you're thinking about, like, we've spoken quite a lot of episodes about you becoming a parent yourself. So quite, like, being like, wow, that's quite a big impact you can have on someone.

[Jamie Laing]

So get ready for this one. Are you ready?

[PJ]

Yeah, I can't. I actually cannot wait because was I'm gonna be. I don't know what Jamie did on this morning.

[Jamie Laing]

You're gonna be listening and editing this.

[PJ]

Yeah. I'm really, really excited for this one.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay. It's gonna be amazing. Right. If you haven't subscribed to the show already, please do Sign to our DMs at GreatCompany podcast or send us an email. Greatcompanyampleproductions.co.uk Everything is in the show description. Let us know what you think of the show, what new guests we Want anything at all. We'd love to hear from you. Okay. You ready for this?

[PJ]

I am.

[Jamie Laing]

Enjoy this episode of Great Company with Eliza Pressman. So I think where we should start for our audience is you should explain who you are and what you do.

[Eliza Pressman]

My name is Dr. Eliza Pressman. I mean, Eliza. And I'm a developmental psychologist. The hat that I have is training physicians or talking to parents. And then the way that I talk to parents is in private practice, but also in groups. And also I have a podcast, and I write, and I try to. Thank you.

[Jamie Laing]

It really is amazing.

[Eliza Pressman]

I love working with families who are kind of saying, like, oh, my God, what just happened? I'm in charge of a whole human or multiple humans, and it's hard for me.

[Jamie Laing]

Why is it hard for you?

[Eliza Pressman]

I mean, it's hard for. People say that. By the way, it's hard for me, too, as a mother, I mean, because I have a lot of information, and I just got beat up this morning by my teenager. I was like, are you kidding me? Like, I fell. I was susceptible like anybody else, even though in my head I was like, do the steps. Totally do the steps. Step one, take a deep breath. Don't react. Like all the things.

[Jamie Laing]

Don't be aggressive.

[Eliza Pressman]

It's.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, don't blame them.

[Eliza Pressman]

Yeah, all of it. But it didn't matter. So I think part of it is supporting parents in their journey. Part of it is helping people be reflective about their own experience growing up and being parented and how they want to do things the same or do things differently. And part of it is, like, accepting that this is really hard stuff. There are some things I know really well, like things that I would consider procedural, like getting a kid to sleep or feeding or pooping or something like that. Like, I'm really good at that stuff. Not pooping, but teaching somebody how to potty train.

[Jamie Laing]

You're like the baby whisperer that can.

[Eliza Pressman]

Those are easy things for me because they're sort of technical. But then when it comes to other things, like the bigger things. I know the research, but it doesn't mean that, you know, if someone's bullying my kid, do I know the research on how best to respond? Sure. But I also know that I'm going to feel things that are different than if, for example, your child was being bullied. How I might support you is going to be different because I'm a little bit removed from it.

[Jamie Laing]

How important is the first few years of childhood to see your sort of destiny for the rest of your life? How important is that parenthood in those sort of early years.

[Eliza Pressman]

So the first three years of life is the majority of our brain is developed, but there's still another huge growth during the adolescent years. And then. And the adolescent years, by the way, go all the way up to some. You don't fully develop your brain until sometime between 18 and 30 and it's later for boys. So that's why in your 20s. I think, though this will sound controversial, just like when you think of just classically, just the stereotype of men and women, a 22 year old woman and a 22 year old man, you can.

[Jamie Laing]

Say it, you could say it's just.

[Eliza Pressman]

A little bit different. You can say it. So I think keeping that in mind, the third biggest time for brain development, which I think is so beautiful and fascinating, is the transition to parenthood. When you become a parent and you don't have to be the biological parent, you could be adopted, you could be the adoptive parent, you can be the dad, you didn't have to give birth. It's the third biggest time. Your brain grows in your life and then after that it's all downhill.

[Jamie Laing]

How do we know that? What do we mean it grows? So explain that a little bit. What do we mean the brain grows?

[Eliza Pressman]

So the, this, this research is. I can send you all the papers on this research. It's not my research, I'm just a translator of the research. But essentially what they found is that the brain is open to change and, and have positive growth during the onset of parenthood. And what we think is the reason, and this is in brain scans, what we think is the reason, is that you care so much that you are more likely to quit smoking, you're more likely to quit drinking, you're more likely to do the things that you've been meaning to do because you care so much. And it's interesting because people say mom brain a lot. Like, oh, I just had a baby, I'm like, so, like, I can't think about anything, I'm out of it, or I can't find my car keys. Mom brain or dad brain or whatever it is, is actually you're reallocating the resources of your brain to things that matter more. Like, I don't care where my keys are, I'm keeping a human alive. But it's actually growth. It's not that your brain is shrinking, which it feels like I'm getting dumber, but actually you're getting smarter.

[Jamie Laing]

So for people who potentially choose not.

[Eliza Pressman]

To have kids, they don't.

[Jamie Laing]

Does that growth still happen?

[Eliza Pressman]

It's no, but you can have this growth through caregiving. So, like, the act of caregiving can grow your brain. So taking care of this is fascinating. It is mind blowing to me.

[Jamie Laing]

That is mind blowing. That. So hang just. I live by a quote, which is amazing. Well, it's not really a quote, but it's sort of a saying that Socrates said. I've said this on the podcast before, which is there are two levels of happiness. The lower level, which is fame, wealth, power, the things that we want to achieve. And then there's a higher level of happiness, which is caregiving, giving back love, those kind of things. And when you get to that place, you're immensely happy. And it's obviously because your brain has grown.

[Eliza Pressman]

Yes. I didn't know that, but yes. I mean, that tracks, right? Because there's nothing more healing and there's nothing better for your brain than caring for others. That's why when people are feeling hopeless, there's a quote. You know, if you feel hopeless, get helpful. It's so important to remember that, that the act of caregiving grows your brain. But in particular in. In the transition to parenthood, it very much is like it's that third growth spurt before the cognitive decline of adulthood.

[Jamie Laing]

If a child, if you are someone who's gone through some sort of trauma, maybe you have attachment issues or you weren't loved, you were told that you were. Naughty kid. All these things growing up, that is changeable.

[Eliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

So that's the beautiful thing.

[Eliza Pressman]

That's the beautiful. That's the retrofitting, like, of the house. That's not set up for earthquakes. You're retrofitting your attachment. So you understand I was not. I did not feel loved for who I was. I did not feel that if I made a mistake, my parent would stick around. I was always worried about whether or not they would show up. I want to change that and I'm worthy of changing that for me.

[Jamie Laing]

When you start therapy, right. I think a lot of people do therapy because they want reassurance and different things like this. And when I started doing therapy and understanding myself a little bit more, I suddenly got to what I can only describe as a wall of emotions that I realized I hadn't gone further than this wall here. And to get past that wall and realize what I. Who I actually was and actually what I was blocking and was really tough.

[Eliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Because I had spent so many, so much of my life being resilient, holding my armor, that I found it impossible to become that vulnerable in that space. And really sort of put a mirror in front of me and see who I truly was. So for someone listening now who doesn't want to go there, how do they change? May? I dunno. How do you change someone who has had so long living a certain way because they've had to for survival instincts?

[Eliza Pressman]

Well, I think the incentive has to be there.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay.

[Eliza Pressman]

And also, I mean, that's why when you start thinking about love and wanting like a real relationship and a child, you have incentive. You're like, I can't keep living like this. I'm going to do the things that I need to do. But I also want to just point out that you keep referring to the resilience as like not being vulnerable. And I don't think you can be vulnerable and resilient. You are, but it's more, I think the, it sounds like the attitude of keep it inside was considered resilient. And I'm not saying that you're supposed to go into the world like a raw nerve because that is so annoying. Right? Like nobody wants to be around somebody who is set off at all points and is constantly unable to function when things are not going their way. But I do think there is something to thinking if I don't have an emotional reaction, that I am somehow a stronger person. I think you can be a very strong person and have an emotional reaction and you just took a long time to learn that and you were not. But I understand that at 8 years old, I don't know, I mean, you lose all of the things that took care of you in one swoop. You have to kind of shut off. You're too little, you're too little. But now you're old enough to be able to say that was too little to understand that people always come back, you know, to believe that because your nanny left and your parents got divorced and you're in boarding school. Like that's so much at 8, that's so little. When you're just so sorry.

[Jamie Laing]

No, I didn't mind at all.

[Eliza Pressman]

It was very little.

[Jamie Laing]

It was very little. Yeah.

[Eliza Pressman]

You know, it's not the same thing as even going to boarding school in high school when you're like, goodbye, you know, you want to be away, away from your parents, but at eight you don't.

[Jamie Laing]

No, you don't at all. One thing that is a sort of big topic at the conversation at the moment is, you know where your child sleeps?

[Eliza Pressman]

Uh huh.

[Jamie Laing]

Sleeping in the cot. Does it sleep in your bed? Does it sleep in your room? You know, when I was a Child, I slept in a cot in a separate room. But there's a lot of conversation around maybe sleeping with the child in your bed. What are the sort of ideas around this?

[Eliza Pressman]

I get very upset on behalf of parents for this particular topic because there's so much research that says where your baby sleeps is irrelevant. It's that they get sleep. Except for in the first year of life it is. There are lower rates of sids, Sudden Infant Death Syndrome when they are sleeping in a separate bed, but that doesn't mean a separate room they could be sleeping. The recommendation certainly in the United States, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends sleeping in the same room with a, you know, like what's, I guess it's a cot. It's like a three sided cot that's kind of attached to the bed. Got it for the first six months, six to 12 months. Or a separate crib in another room or you can bed share. I just work in a hospital, so I wouldn't recommend bed sharing because it's, you know, but like if you don't have lots of bedding, there's no obesity, there's no smoking, there's no substance use. It's culturally appropriate for you. Like do your thing. You have to make sure that you don't have any of those particular challenges. Otherwise it's quite dangerous. But what I think is frustrating is that there are people that are certain, they'll tell you on social media or out in the world that you must bedshare in order to have a close attachment or you must not sleep in the same room in order for your child to get good sleep and thrive. And that's gobbledygook. There's so much robust data showing it just need like what matters is sleep. Both the parents sleep and the kids sleep. So all that other noise, like if for example, your sibling's baby is sleeping in the other room and your sister, it's your sister or your sister in law who just said it.

[Jamie Laing]

My sister in law.

[Eliza Pressman]

Your sister in law. And if she's like, okay, I did it this way and this is the best way to do it and you're like, I don't wanna do it that way. I want, I would do, I actually want the baby in another room, in a crib, lovingly in a separate room. And I think that'll be better for my relationship and I don't wanna do what you're doing. Don't do it like there's no science to say one is better than the other. There are some recommendations about Safety, which is separate. But in terms of attachment relationship, it has nothing to do with how your baby feeds or sleeps. And I want you to know this because you will hear so many different things. And I actually spoke with two octogenarians who were the. They're sort of the leading researchers in attachment that are still alive. So there's. There was John Bowlby, Mary Ainsworth, and then her student is still alive. And he's done the longest running study on. His name is Professor Alan Strof. He's done the longest study, decades and decades and decades about attachment. And I said to him, can you please, like, before I wrote my book, because I wanted to just triple, quadruple, confirm, can you please make sure that this is okay? And he was like, your attachment is utterly unrelated to those procedural things like sleep. So let people say what they will if it makes them feel better. Like, this is how we do it in this household. It's really good for attachment. But it's, it's stories that is so.

[Jamie Laing]

Because there is. There is a lot of noise out there.

[Eliza Pressman]

So much noise. It's crazy and it's mean.

[Jamie Laing]

It is mean. And especially with social media, now that you, you do a certain thing or you hold your child a certain way or feed your child a certain way, you know, there are so many things. It's just, there is so much out there, so it becomes complicated and scary. And so therefore, you are kind of worried about how to raise your child because you don't know what's right and wrong.

[Eliza Pressman]

That's why it was so important to me to say, like, there are big things, like, we talked about some of the big things that really, really move the needle. But like, if you're ever wondering, I mean, call me and I will tell you. But if you're ever wondering if something is going to move the needle on how your child grows and develops, the answer is probably it doesn't. And so when people say things like that, it is so irresponsible. I understand why it happens.

[Jamie Laing]

Does it make you annoyed?

[Eliza Pressman]

It drives me. You could see, like, I can feel it. I can feel it all. Because I'm just like, there's no prescription that is going to be accurate for every family. And let me tell you, for one mom, breastfeeding is the most beautiful thing in the world. And for another mom, it is absolutely the reason why she has postpartum depression and she needs to be medicated and take care of herself and give her child formula and be fine. So, like, is breast best? Sure. In, you know, all things being equal and whatever. But like when you unpack the data, it's not better than a mom who's functioning. It's not better than a mom who's feeling good. It's not better than a mom who's, you know, really been waiting her whole life to have a baby, but adopted a baby because she couldn't give biological, you know, birth. That baby's not less well off ever. Cause they didn't breastfeed. So. And there's no association between that and attachment. There is an association with allergies and some other stuff, obesity, blah, blah. But like, that is what drives me crazy is like you have to do what's right for your particular relationship, your family and your. These are like. It's like somebody saying that you should wear a particular color shirt because it's going to make people like you more if they like that color. Sure it will work.

[Jamie Laing]

Such good advice with, with. I've always known it as post natal depression. But is it.

[Eliza Pressman]

What is this postpartum depression?

[Jamie Laing]

Postpartum depression?

[Eliza Pressman]

Maybe it's called something different.

[Jamie Laing]

Maybe it is. But you're on your part in my area. My limited knowledge of it. Right. Is it can happen in. Typically it happens more in women, but it does happen in men.

[Eliza Pressman]

Yes.

[Jamie Laing]

And it's when you, when you give birth or you have a child and then you, your, your hormones or the life. There's lots of changes going on. And you. Do you slip into a form of depression?

[Eliza Pressman]

Yes.

[Jamie Laing]

I imagine that so many people who listen to you and study what you have spoken about and are listening to this podcast now are potentially feeling that way. Maybe they're on a group chat with lots of other mums who are saying, I'm just having the best time in the world. It's amazing. I love my child. But they inside are feeling terrible. What would you say to them?

[Eliza Pressman]

It is. There are so. There's so this is such a treatable illness. Like, it's so beautiful. You just go to your doctor right this second and you say, I am feeling disconnected from this baby. I. Or I am feeling worthless or hopeless or I'm questioning everything or I'm ruminating or I'm terrified and it's not stopping and it's been two weeks and I, I can't get it. And they will make sure that you are treated. That is something that every physician is now so armed with. It's so treatable and it's so important. And if you have a partner where you're just like, okay, there's One. Baby blues are like. We all get baby blues. You know, you tear up at a commercial. You're feeling very stressed. You've got a living human that you are fully responsible for. And you barely know how to take care of yourself.

[Jamie Laing]

Of yourself. Yeah.

[Eliza Pressman]

You know, and nobody.

[Jamie Laing]

That's wild.

[Eliza Pressman]

It's crazy.

[Jamie Laing]

There's no license.

[Eliza Pressman]

I sometimes just. I sit at home sometimes and I'm like, I cannot believe how much I'm in charge of. This is ridiculous. How in the world am I allowed to do this? And I feel quite qualified. And I still am like, huh? This is if. When kids grow up and realize, like, now that I think back, like, my parents were so young and dumb, like, what? What? And. But they're your parents, so you think they figured it all out. So I would just say, anybody who's having those feelings, tell your primary care physician. You don't have to go to a shrink. You just go right to your pediatrician, you go right to your ob gyn, any of them. And you just say those words and they've got you. It is crucial for your child because the mental health of the parent, particularly the primary parent, is inextricably linked to the mental health of the child. It's the most important thing you can do for your child is to take care of your mental health.

[Jamie Laing]

That is so interesting because I think. I think my mom must have been anxious when I was born because I think she was in a relationship with my dad where my dad was probably, you know, he was off to work and distant. And my mom, you know, was a bit. You know, she was seeking his approval and seeking his love all the time. And I think that sort of fed almost to me. So I think I became an anxious child because of that. That's so interesting that your mental health reflects your child's health.

[Eliza Pressman]

You've got to take care of it. And I think we don't take care of ourselves. Cause we're taking care of our kids. And we're like, I have to prioritize my child. So I just want everybody. I mean, it's so cliche. But when you get on the airplane and they say, put your oxygen mask on first before helping a child next to you. That's so you don't die or pass out. And then what's your child gonna do? So that's why we have to do it. We have to put our oxygen mask on first. And it's not a luxury. It's critical for your kids. I always think the best way to get to mothers and fathers is for me to tell them it's good for their kids because I know they don't care about themselves as much anymore.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow. The what is the one piece of advice you would like someone to take away from this conversation?

[Eliza Pressman]

I don't know. But I don't know.

[Jamie Laing]

That's a good answer.

[Eliza Pressman]

I don't know. But I will say there's a sentence that I think is a good reminder in relationships that might be helpful for parents or for people in any relationship, which is all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not. And it kind of gives you all you need, which is am I honoring this person's feelings because I'm not going to be able to tell somebody how to feel? So am I allowing them to feel how they feel versus saying don't be scared, don't be anxious, don't be sad, don't be angry. And then am I still having boundaries and limits? Those rules that I was talking about? That's where all behaviors are not. So you can feel angry. You can't punch me in the face. That to me is good parenting.

[Jamie Laing]

So good. And what is one thing that you you sort of mention it, but you really want people to not listen to or follow that you kind of hear all the time that people are saying things, you're like, no. And I love that thing you said earlier, which is like, you know, whatever works for you. You kind of do.

[Eliza Pressman]

Let's speed. Yeah, I want people to just know, like if something's helpful for you, fantastic. But if you're hearing somebody give advice and it's making you feel like you're a shitty parent, it's probably not a good fit.

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[Eliza Pressman]

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[Jamie Laing]

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[Eliza Pressman]

If.

[Jamie Laing]

I was going to come to you and I would say, look I'm, I've just given birth, I have, my wife has just given birth to a baby. How do I become the best parent? What would you say I do?

[Eliza Pressman]

Okay, so the first thing I would say is to just lean into self compassion. Like it's really hard stuff and if we're trying to be perfect at it, like I was saying earlier, it's the enemy of actually being a really good parent. Because you're not gonna be perfect. And if you spend time trying to be perfect and beating yourself up, you're not focused on just being with your kid and with your partner so that you know you've got to let yourself make mistakes. And your child again needs to know over the years you make mistakes and you don't beat yourself up over it. So what the first thing I like to say is, as you make mistakes right now, before you're a parent, try to use the voice inside your head that you dream that you hope your child will use when they make mistakes.

[Jamie Laing]

So give me an example of that.

[Eliza Pressman]

So I what's a mistake that like you would beat yourself up about? I was late this morning. I'm disrespectful.

[Jamie Laing]

You were beating yourself up.

[Eliza Pressman]

I was beating myself up about it. In my dream world, if my daughter is late, first of all, I want her to be conscientious and not show up late. Cause it's disrespectful. And also if something happened where she ends up late, I'm hoping that she's not like inside her head. She's not going, you're so dumb. You're such an idiot. You should have left a half hour earlier. You're the worst. You're not worth anything. You shouldn't even be there. Those are the nasty things that we say to ourselves. Instead I'd want her to say, well, that sucks. I really am bummed that I'm late. I wish I had left earlier. Next time I'm gonna Remember to plan. Wouldn't that just be a nicer way to be? So you're not letting yourself off the hook. You're not like, who cares? Like self compassion, self care. It's you care, but you're not like debilitated by it. You're planning for the next time and you're gonna do a little bit better.

[Jamie Laing]

So you're speaking kindly. When they're growing up, what other things are there that we can use?

[Eliza Pressman]

So also, reflection is really important. So I have a book where I talk about the five the five principles of parenting. I mean, I don't care if people buy it because I know we've already.

[Jamie Laing]

Left the link in the description.

[Eliza Pressman]

Yeah, like, buy it or not, it's like it came out a year ago. I don't care. I don't like when people in my field are like, without this, you're going to be a bad parent. Because that's not true. I hope this is helpful, but it's not. You know, like, if you're here, if you're not, if you're paying attention, if you're curious about being a good parent, you're a good enough parent. You know, it's a little funny thing about this gig is that the people who are interested are usually not the people who need it as much.

[Jamie Laing]

So in your book, how do you describe them? What do you say?

[Eliza Pressman]

Okay, so I've sort of curated the research from decades and decades and I checked with a lot of colleagues so that I wasn't just like coming up with this on my own. And so there are five things that are rooted in science that are on us as the parent. And this is what I would tell you as you're embarking on this. The five things are relationship. So cultivating a close, connected relationship, first with your partner who you're having the baby with. If you're having a baby with a partner, in this case, you are. And with your child so out of the gate, cultivating a relationship. And with a baby, that just means cuddling and snuggling and making fun faces and being, you know, taking care of them and changing their diaper, which side note, that's where the act of caregiving comes in. Sometimes you're like, I will do everything, but I hate diapers. But actually feeding and diaper changing for babies is like the majority of the day. And you're close to their face, so. Cause they don't have the eyesight in those first few months to they can't look across the room at you while you're waving. They need to be, like, the distance between your elbow and the tip of your finger to really see your face.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow.

[Eliza Pressman]

And so you get these beautiful opportunities when you're changing a diaper and your eyes light up because you're looking at that little face and you get a little oxytocin hit. That's the love hormone. Because it just feels so, like, yummy. And so I encourage caregiving in that way. Even if you have, like, all the help in the world and nannies galore, you still are like, I'm gonna make sure that sometimes in the day, I'm going to. Even if your wife is exclusively breastfeeding, you're like, can I please do a pumped bottle? Once the breastfeeding is established? Just to, like, once a day do the caregiving.

[Jamie Laing]

Because you build that connection. And that is so important.

[Eliza Pressman]

Yes. Because you just build that connection. It's like, we cannot help it.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm taking notes. Honestly, this is unbelievable. So say that again.

[Eliza Pressman]

So, like, the act of caregiving. So that's relationship. And you're building relations throughout your child's life. It's the most protective thing we can do for kids.

[Jamie Laing]

What does that do for the child?

[Eliza Pressman]

Okay, so in research. This is crazy. This, to me, is crazy, crazy. There's something called toxic stress, which we talk about. Like, experiencing toxic stressors makes you more likely to have heart disease, diabetes, mental illness, decades later. Toxic stress is, like, really big stuff. Like being in, like, a concentration camp. Like, it's bad, bad, bad.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Eliza Pressman]

And. But there's also toxic stress that we think of, like, witnessing abuse or having an alcoholic parent or who's untreated or, I mean, list all the things that are just terrible in the world. Yeah, Those are toxic stressors. What we think are toxic stressors are often like, divorce or having somebody not invite you to a birthday party or not getting the job or something like that. Those are tolerable stressors.

[Jamie Laing]

Got it.

[Eliza Pressman]

And tolerable stressors, when you have close, connected relationships with a one adult in your life, ideally, maybe you even get two, because you have two parents and they're awesome, is how you build resilience. In the absence of one relationship that's close, they become toxic stressors. So even the bad stuff, like the hideous stuff that we hear about in the face of, like, when you have one parent who's there for you, I mean, they've looked at even kids who are experiencing, you know, they're in a war. I mean, this research started in World War II. Having one caregiver who is closely connected with you, who you know loves you for exactly who you are, moves the categorization of stressor from toxic to tolerable. And that can build resilience. You don't wish it, but the fact that relationship can build resilience that powerfully to me is mind blowing. And it's in your control.

[Jamie Laing]

I saw this amazing TED talk from this seven year old girl. I don't know if you've seen it. Talking about peekaboo. Have you seen this?

[Eliza Pressman]

Yes. I haven't seen the TED talk, but peekaboo is an incredibly important game.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, you can explain. Why is peekaboo such an important game?

[Eliza Pressman]

Watch. I'm gone, I'm back. I'm gone, I'm back. When you have a young child, if you show like a 6 month old some your face or like there's something on the table and you cover it with a napkin and they were interested in the like a pair of glasses on the table, you cover it with a napkin, they like move on. They don't realize that it's there anymore. They don't have what's called object permanence. Object permanence is your cognitive capacity to understand that things and people, person permanence exist even when they're not with you. And so when you're 9 months old, 10 months old, and certainly by 11 months you have object and person permanence. So now if I'm a baby looking at the glasses and my dad covers the glasses up with a napkin, I'm gonna lift up the napkin and find the glasses. And when my mom or dad goes like this, peekaboo, they're saying, I'm gone, I'm back, I'm gone, I'm back. I always come back and they're exercising that muscle. And that's why it's such a really important game to play with kids. And that's why they love it because it's just this like reminder. And it's wild because they're just like, they actually go through this process of development before they're like, you're gone. Wait, what? You're back. Can you imagine? Isn't that cool?

[Jamie Laing]

That must be the most for each other. That feeling each time must be insane.

[Eliza Pressman]

It's so. It gives you confidence though, because no one is tricking you or sneaking out on you. It makes you trust. It just teaches you like you grow that muscle, that people still exist even when they go away.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, so we have the relationship.

[Eliza Pressman]

So that's relationship. And you build relationship by doing things like peekaboo and changing diapers and all. It's not rocket science, you know, it's just the basics.

[Jamie Laing]

How do you make sure that your, you and your partner are still maintaining a relationship? If you are in a, if you are in a relationship, right. With someone new, old, whatever it may be, Having a kid at the beginning.

[Eliza Pressman]

Yeah, it's, it's not great for a relationship.

[Jamie Laing]

It's a real shitter for relationships. It throws everything out. How do you make sure that you are still connecting as partners?

[Eliza Pressman]

So I, I think there's another wonderful thing you can do in advance is first of all expect that it's going to be really, really hard. And then for that first year, especially particularly for dads, even though you're not going to get the attention that you once got, it's for this larger, greater cause. And what you can do is share that focus on the child so that then you can love each other. Like when you both take the time to see each other as like there's, it's really beautiful and sexy to see a good parent of your child. Like not someone else.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, that's a little sexy.

[Eliza Pressman]

But like to so. And checking in, like, how can I be helpful? And then for your partner, what I think happens a lot, particularly with moms, is we're better. Like we think we've got this and we're better at it. And so like you can't do it as well. So I'm gonna just tell you how to do it better. And then eventually you're gonna stop doing it. Cause you're like, you do it better. Fine. And those are dynamics that you can talk about in advance so that it doesn't happen as often, you know. Cause like no, you're not gonna change the diaper as well. Maybe that's not gonna be your jam. But you should. It's better for you to do a bad diaper change, but you're doing it. Then the mental load of mom now thinking she's got some time to herself because she's not changing a diaper, but she's over focused on like, is it perfect? Is the diaper perfect? And then it undermines how you feel and your confidence as a dad. So those are the kinds of things that you just talk about in advance. And then I would go as far as saying like make a family value statement, like for the two of us, like in this like start of having a family, what are the three or four most important values that you want to impart on this child and come together and when you think about it, like, what were the ones that you got messaged as a child? And what were the ones that she got messaged? And which one of those do you want to keep? And which ones are you? Like, that was not a great message for me.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow. That communication is so key. Because what I find especially, you know, just I see it with our families, what I find about relationships, which is so interesting. Right. I met my wife six years ago, now dating five years, and you fall in love with the person, but then there's a whole family behind that that you got to connect with. And, you know, praise the Lord. Thank God that her family's amazing. And our families get on so well. But our families are different. Of course they are. They didn't grow up in the same household.

[Eliza Pressman]

Right.

[Jamie Laing]

So they have different values and different ideas and different ways they eat around the table and different ways they cook a chicken. I don't know. You know what I mean?

[Eliza Pressman]

Totally.

[Jamie Laing]

It's so different. So when it comes to parenting styles, you have a way that you have and your partner has a way that they have. How do you blend those together in a perfect way? Communication.

[Eliza Pressman]

Communication. Talking about it in advance and accepting that you're gonna have different styles. Like, what are the styles that you want to draw from from your own families and just talk about it and accept that it's like, listen, if you want help, great. Say, like, if you notice that I'm reverting to yelling a lot, then not in the heat of the moment, but some other time. Let's talk about it. Because I kind of want to work on this. Yeah, but only if you want to work on it, because otherwise unsolicited advice from a co parent can turn quickly into resentment or the I, you know, my parents were better than your parents, so I'm a better parent. So it's all communication and setting your expectations. Like, it's important to have developmentally appropriate expectations not just for our kids. Like, we don't expect an infant to walk when they're six months old. It's ridiculous. We know that's not going to happen, so I'm not gonna, like, expect it of them. And we have to have developmentally appropriate expectations of our partners. It's new. We're new. We're born as parents the same day our kids are born. So we're like a baby parent. And so we have to have compassion for each other and for ourselves. And we're gonna make mistakes and we're gonna have different styles. But talking about, like, what and reflecting On. By the way, the second principle after relationship is reflection. Because it really is like, what, what was. You know, what's happening here? What was my experience? How did I. Like how what, what was it like at 8 years old to go to boarding school? Do I want to do that with my kids or do I want to wait a little bit longer for them to cook? You know, like all of those things stop you from doing things you regret.

[Jamie Laing]

That's so interesting because that reflection is so important. I didn't even think of that. You got to think, okay, right. This is what I experienced. I didn't like that. I don't want to experience that. So let's not do that here. Yeah, that's really important to remember.

[Eliza Pressman]

It's so small too. Like, it's. These are all low lifts, you know what I mean? Like, it's not like in order to get really fit, you have to like really work out. And it's hard. But being a good parent is. The lift feels hard. It feels really hard because it's a. You're. You never care about it anything more in your life. But are you sure?

[Jamie Laing]

Because that's my big worry as well.

[Eliza Pressman]

That you won't care?

[Jamie Laing]

That I won't care?

[Eliza Pressman]

Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Unless you're a sociopath, you're gonna care. Even the worst people in the world, like, everybody cares about their kids except for like, even people who are terrible parents don't not care about their kids. They think that this is being a good parent. It's what they know, it's what they came from. So. But I will tell you when I had, when I was going to the hospital for my second baby, Vivian, I was saying goodbye. Cause I had a C section with my second baby and I was saying goodbye to my oldest daughter. I guess it must have been morning. So I was giving her a kiss and a hug. And in my head I was like, I will never love this second kid because this is my sun, moon and stars is my Penelope. And I go to the hospital, I'm crying because I'm like, how am I gonna raise this mediocre kid that's gonna be so second best? And then the second she popped out, I was like, well, hello. My heart just grew triple sized. Like you don't. You all of a sudden you're like, I have more capacity than I thought. Wow, it's so wild. But there's no risk. I'm not worried about it at all. You can. You'll worry about it it can take time. It's not like I had an automatic response. But there are plenty of people, especially for dads. Because your value is. It takes longer to have value.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, for sure. Right?

[Eliza Pressman]

You know, that first year you're not quite as exciting, but eventually you're like, first I think there's this love of like just, this is my responsibility. So maybe you're not thinking about love in that affectionate way. You're just like in a state of like survival. But eventually you're like, oh my God, this is my human. I can't believe this. And it's incredible. It's how, you know, it's look, other people's kids aren't that cute sometimes. Like, you're just like, I don't get it, but your kid is gonna be the cutest kid in the world.

[Jamie Laing]

What is the third, fourth and fifth principle?

[Eliza Pressman]

The third is regulation. So, you know, being able to regulate our internal experience of emotions so that we don't just scream and yell and cry and do exactly what we want to do in the moment because we have capacity to have reflected, paused, and been more intentional about our expression of emotions. It's sort of like the managing, the operating system that's regulation. And brains can't self regulate completely. They don't have capacity until they're fully grown. And so since they're not fully grown till adulthood, it's very hard. That's why, you know, you see toddlers and it looks like they're having some kind of crazy meltdown over the color of a cup, you know, and it seems so, but for their lived experience, it's a threat to their survival. That cup is not the right color. Like they don't have capacity to stop and say, I didn't want the blue cup, but I know that I'm safe. You know, that's a self regulated person who's like, I didn't want the almond milk in my latte, the barista got it wrong. But I'm safe, so I'm not gonna like lose my mind.

[Jamie Laing]

That is interesting. So that's what toddlers do. That's why. Cause they see it as a threat.

[Eliza Pressman]

Yeah, they go into fight, flight or freeze, which is what we do when we feel threatened. And what young people think is a threat is different than what an experienced person who can reflect and have like, zoom out. And their brain doesn't just go into their, what we used to call lizard brain, like your primitive brain. And so regulation is hugely predictive of so much. And you understand this because you just Told me earlier, you have adhd, so regulation's harder for you. So you have explored this. And now at 36. 36.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm 36.

[Eliza Pressman]

You've been working on your regulation?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, I have to 100%.

[Eliza Pressman]

And it was a harder challenge.

[Jamie Laing]

It was the one thing that I really had to do. I had to really focus on doing that because I couldn't get anything done otherwise.

[Eliza Pressman]

Exactly. So regulation is really important in parenting because you're lending your nervous system, your more mature nervous system to children. It's called CO regulation. So when they can't stop crying when they're a baby, you put them against your chest and you sort of rub their backs. And inside, if you're taking a deep breath, your body is sort of lending them the information you're safe, because they don't know that they're safe. And so it's beautiful and it grows over time. That's why, just to harp on my morning, when my daughter, when I was like, snippy, she was obviously feeling unsafe, you know, like something set her off, and I was not in the mood to make her feel great because I was just, you know, just like, bitchy. And it's fine. Because the other thing that is cool is repair is part of the five principles, which is you're gonna disconnect and connect all day, every day.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow.

[Eliza Pressman]

And the reconnection is repair. And that grows the muscles the way, like, when you work out. You would think I work out all the time the way I'm using these metaphors, but I don't. But I work out just enough to be alive and functional. But you tear the muscles, like tiny little tears in order to get bigger muscles.

[Jamie Laing]

It literally works. Like going to the gym.

[Eliza Pressman]

Yes. That's how relationships get strong. So if you didn't have the little tears, the mess. Mess ups, the disconnect. Same with marriages. By the way. You don't have a strong relationship.

[Jamie Laing]

You're kidding me. I'm a huge believer because, you know, in my relationship, we have arguments and we're vocal and we can. We. We. We had one in front of Tom. He's not in. Literally. The other day, we had an argument, and we're quite open with that. We have an argument. It's not bad, but we just sort of get across at each other. But then we repair and we learn. Yeah, I learn so much from having an argument with my partner.

[Eliza Pressman]

And now you have a stronger relationship.

[Jamie Laing]

I need a cooler. That is insane.

[Eliza Pressman]

The problem is, if you argue and you don't repair and you don't feel like the love is still there. Because if you think about. That's so interesting when you. So I live in LA and there are earthquakes and when you buy a house in la, you have to check for insurance purposes whether it's earthquake safe. I mean, also because, like, you don't want to be in a house that's going to crumble, but you retrofit your house if it's not earthquake safe. You can retrofit the sense that the ground is not going to be shaky and ruin the house if there's an earthquake, a fight. But if you don't have a strong foundation, the house crumbles. So you need a strong foundation in order to have these fights. And you're like, oh, we're okay. Cause we come back and we repair. And sometimes the repair is like a deep conversation and an apology. And sometimes it's just you're watching TV and you move closer on the couch and you're just like, we don't care. We're good. We love each other. You know, it's like it doesn't always have to be a big thing, but it's always there. And in parent child relationships, they did these videos and basically found that that connection attunement, like that beautiful relationship was only there 30% of the time or 33% of the time. The rest of the time was rupture and repair, rupture and repair, over and over. So that's. Those were strong, healthy relationships. And that to me is so much more doable than thinking that it's always supposed to be great, you know? And you learn it in your partnership.

[Jamie Laing]

That has made me feel amazing. My parents, My parents got divorced. They never fought. My mum said that we never fought. If they had a fight, my dad would leave the room. That is wild.

[Eliza Pressman]

I know. That's wild.

[Jamie Laing]

That is actually a really good.

[Eliza Pressman]

People should know.

[Jamie Laing]

People should. I don't think people know that. I think there's this misconception that having arguments or with your kids or your newborn or getting crossed at them or frustrated or whatever, these. You need to have repair in order to grow. Yeah, it's like the importance of failure in life. You got to fail in order to understand.

[Eliza Pressman]

Exactly. Otherwise it's shattering. Like if you never are allowed to fail, when you do fail, you think the world is over, but you need to have these tiny little failures to know that it's survivable.

[Jamie Laing]

So what is the final principle?

[Eliza Pressman]

Rules. Which I don't love the word.

[Jamie Laing]

Routine rules. Okay.

[Eliza Pressman]

Like, routine is Also very important. But that is under the category of rules.

[Jamie Laing]

Because the reason I mentioned routine is I phoned my mum before this. I said, what question do you want me to ask? And she said, I believe in routine.

[Eliza Pressman]

She's right. That's rules. You can't. You can have a great relationship, but if you're permissive, like, we're still raising kids, we can't just be like, would you like to go to bed or not? You know, would you like to have Snickers for dinner or broccoli? Because they're children and they're not going to. If they had a fully developed brain and could be adults and make good choices, they would not need us. So rules are very important. And I think of rules as boundaries, limits, routines. Things where we're saying, hey, I love you, our relationship is close, you still need to go to bed, you know? So rules are boundaries and limits. Routines, like things that make us feel safe, you know, what to expect, you know, what's expected of you that helps kids feel safe. So relationships in the absence of rules is just a permissive situation, which can actually lead to more anxiety.

[Jamie Laing]

This has been amazing in every single way. And, you know, it truly has. And you're totally forgiven for being.

[Eliza Pressman]

I'm so sorry I was so terrible. I am not going to be nice to myself about it.

[Jamie Laing]

You should be. We'd like to end the podcast with a quick fire question. You ready for this? Or questions. What's a saying or phrase that always makes you smile or cheers you up?

[Eliza Pressman]

I'm not being chased by a shark. So good.

[Jamie Laing]

Best compliment anyone's ever given you.

[Eliza Pressman]

I guess that they feel seen by me.

[Jamie Laing]

What scares you most about yourself?

[Eliza Pressman]

I'm lazy.

[Jamie Laing]

No, you're not.

[Eliza Pressman]

No, I'm. I'm lazy. I could sit and watch. I could watch 18 episodes of a show.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, but so could everyone. So could everyone.

[Eliza Pressman]

I don't get bored. I don't get bored.

[Jamie Laing]

Love that.

[Eliza Pressman]

Last time you cried, I teared up over the election. I'm not gonna lie. I'm so embarrassed that I did. I did tear up. Even though I'm like, all for elections and we get what we get and we see how it goes, and this is just one of those things. And I think that we don't need to take the day off afterwards. Like, all that stuff seemed ridiculous, but I did tear up.

[Jamie Laing]

What's something you can't let go of?

[Eliza Pressman]

My kids.

[Jamie Laing]

Good one. What turns you off?

[Eliza Pressman]

Judgment.

[Jamie Laing]

What turns you on?

[Eliza Pressman]

Thoughtfulness.

[Jamie Laing]

What do you like most about yourself?

[Eliza Pressman]

I See something good in every single person.

[Jamie Laing]

That's beautiful. Last one. My favourite, favourite swear word.

[Eliza Pressman]

Fuck.

[Jamie Laing]

That's good.

[Eliza Pressman]

Strong, just simple.

[Jamie Laing]

Thank you so much for coming on Great Company. That was amazing. Thank you. That was amazing. Thank you so. Wow. That was good.

[PJ]

That was so good.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. I can do this without you sometimes.

[PJ]

That was concerning.

[Jamie Laing]

I can do it without you.

[PJ]

Uh oh. Last time PJs ever on the show, Hoot, hoot, hoot, hoot disappears. No, that was fantastic. I really love that. So many, so many lessons learned.

[Jamie Laing]

So many lessons learned. She was incredible. And Eliza, thank you so much for coming on the show.

[PJ]

She also has a podcast.

[Jamie Laing]

She also has a podcast, raising Good Humans.

[PJ]

Fantastic.

[Jamie Laing]

Yes. Go and take a listen to it. We're gonna leave it in the show description as well along with our email. Great companyproductors.co.uk and also the tags to our social channels, YouTube, TikTok and Instagram @greatcompany podcast. Reat company podcast.

[PJ]

Lovely.

[Jamie Laing]

PJ, anything you wanna add? No, just that.

[PJ]

That's it. Just horse.

[Jamie Laing]

All right everybody, we hope you enjoyed the show. Remember to subscribe and we'll see you next episode on another Wednesday of great. I know.

[PJ]

Another episode on a Wednesday.

[Jamie Laing]

Great.

[PJ]

Great company.

[Ryan Reynolds]

When you're a forward thinker, the only thing you're afraid of is business as usual. Workday is the AI platform that transforms. Transforms the way you manage your people and money today so you can transform tomorrow. Workday moving business forever forward. Support for this podcast and the following message is brought to you by E Trade from Morgan Stanley. With E Trade, you can dive into the market with easy to use tools, $0 commissions and a wide range of investments. And now there's even more to love. Get access to industry leading research and insights from Morgan Stanley to help guide your decisions. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Get started [e-mail] terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPIC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley. Race the rudders.

[Jamie Laing]

Race the sails. Race the sails.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.

[Jamie Laing]

Over. Roger, wait.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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