DR. JULIE: SIGNS THAT SOMEONE IS NOT A TRUE FRIEND

Summary

Podcast Summary: "DR. JULIE: SIGNS THAT SOMEONE IS NOT A TRUE FRIEND"

Introduction

In this episode of Great Company with Jamie Laing, host Jamie Laing is joined by Dr. Julie, a renowned psychologist and social media influencer who specializes in mental health and self-help. Dr. Julie brings her expertise to the forefront, discussing the intricate dynamics of friendships and the subtle signs that someone may not be a true friend. Released on February 5, 2025, this episode delves deep into the emotional and psychological aspects of relationships, offering invaluable insights for listeners seeking to foster genuine connections.

Guest Introduction and Background

Jamie Laing warmly introduces Dr. Julie, expressing his admiration for her work and her impactful presence on social media. He highlights her contributions to mental health awareness, her bestselling book "Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before?", and her upcoming release, "Open When," which serves as a guide for navigating various emotional states.

Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Vulnerability ([06:13] - [07:31])

Jamie begins by praising Dr. Julie's accomplishments, to which Dr. Julie humbly responds, sharing her initial fears about public reception and vulnerability in sharing personal experiences. She recounts her anxiety about people’s perceptions and the unexpected success of her debut book, emphasizing the importance of offering genuine support rather than prescriptive solutions.

The Importance of Human Connection in Mental Health ([07:31] - [10:36])

Dr. Julie discusses the critical role of human connection in mental health. She stresses that therapy is not about fixing someone but about providing a supportive space for individuals to navigate their emotions. She shares her personal struggle with anxiety and the transformative power of reaching out to a trusted friend, highlighting the necessity of emotional support systems.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Julie at [10:36]: "Just knowing that someone is going to walk alongside you through it is everything."

Honest Self-Talk vs. Self-Criticism ([11:14] - [15:11])

The conversation shifts to the concept of self-talk. Dr. Julie advocates for "respectful honesty," contrasting it with extreme self-criticism and excessive self-compassion. She explains that being honest with oneself, even when it's uncomfortable, fosters genuine growth and self-improvement.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Julie at [14:31]: "It's about channeling the focus of your attention so that you know the way forward."

Breaking Negative Cycles in Relationships ([16:45] - [21:39])

Jamie and Dr. Julie explore how past experiences shape our current relationships. Dr. Julie explains that childhood experiences create templates for adult relationships, often leading to recurring negative patterns. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing these cycles and actively choosing to break them to build healthier connections.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Julie at [31:03]: "You can become aware of what they are, become aware of when they're detrimental, and then make adjustments."

Navigating Communication in Relationships ([21:39] - [31:37])

Effective communication is pivotal in maintaining healthy relationships. Dr. Julie advises against entering conversations with the intent to win arguments, suggesting instead to approach discussions with the goal of mutual understanding and resolution. She introduces therapeutic techniques like guided discovery, which empower individuals to find their own solutions rather than relying on external validation.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Julie at [18:19]: "You have to keep pushing back to keep me at bay."

Recognizing and Ending Unhealthy Friendships ([36:14] - [38:43])

Dr. Julie outlines three subtle signs that a friend may not have your best interests at heart:

1. Inconsistent Support: Difficulty sharing both good and bad news without receiving genuine support.
2. Emotional Drain: Feeling terrible after interactions, especially when sharing achievements or struggles.
3. Self-Doubt: Constantly questioning oneself due to the friend's reactions or behaviors.

She emphasizes that ending friendships can vary depending on the depth and nature of the relationship, advocating for considerate and context-specific approaches.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Julie at [36:24]: "If you're unable to share good or bad news because of the reaction, that's a key indication."

Supporting Friends Through Mental Health Struggles ([38:43] - [41:27])

The discussion moves to recognizing signs when a friend might be struggling with mental health issues like anxiety or depression. Dr. Julie advises attentive observation and proactive check-ins, highlighting the importance of initiating conversations even when unsure. She underscores that showing concern can make a significant difference in someone's life.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Julie at [39:34]: "The fact that you checked in is everything you just said. It means everything to someone."

Overcoming Social Anxiety ([43:50] - [46:54])

Addressing the prevalent issue of social anxiety, Dr. Julie provides strategies to feel less awkward around people. She recommends facing anxiety-inducing situations gradually through exposure therapy, building confidence step by step. Additionally, she encourages focusing on genuine connections rather than the fear of awkwardness, which helps individuals navigate social interactions more comfortably.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Julie at [44:08]: "The most confident people... focus on building a connection with them."

Embracing Fear and Building Resilience ([46:36] - [60:25])

Jamie shares his personal experiences with anxiety, leading to a profound discussion on embracing fear. Dr. Julie recounts her battle with breast cancer and how facing fear head-on empowered her to take control of her situation. She emphasizes the importance of resilience and maintaining hope, even in the darkest times.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Julie at [60:26]: "But you have to draw a line. You have to stop it at some point because it doesn't help."

Practical Takeaways and Book Highlights ([60:26] - [66:09])

Dr. Julie introduces her new book, "Open When," designed as a practical guide for various emotional states. She explains that each chapter addresses specific moments of need, allowing readers to find targeted support when they most require it. The book serves as a companion for those navigating complex emotions, offering clear and actionable advice.

Notable Quote:
Jamie Laing at [49:50]: "When you do, you have those moments... you can open up your book and you can look at the chapters and you can find the thing that relates to you."

Closing Thoughts and Listener Engagement ([66:05] - [71:26])

The episode concludes with a Q&A segment where Jamie asks Dr. Julie personal questions, humanizing her and offering deeper insight into her character. Dr. Julie shares her vulnerabilities, favorite guilty pleasures, and the importance of trust in relationships. The conversation wraps up with encouraging listeners to reach out and engage with the Great Company community.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Julie at [61:35]: "Your inner world is like a sauna... don't stay for too long. If you're struggling, reach out to another human being and make connection."

Conclusion

This episode of Great Company with Jamie Laing offers profound insights into the nature of true friendships, effective communication, and personal resilience. Dr. Julie's expertise provides listeners with practical tools to recognize unhealthy relationships and foster meaningful connections. Her candid discussion about personal struggles and professional strategies underscores the importance of honesty, vulnerability, and continuous self-improvement in building great company.

For those seeking to understand the signs of insincere friendships and enhance their relational skills, this episode serves as an essential guide, enriched with expert advice and relatable anecdotes.

Transcript

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[Jamie Laing]

Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Laing and this is Great company. Hello, Jemima.

[Jemima]

Howdy, partner.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, okay, so we're cowboys.

[Dr. Julie]

No, Just like that.

[Jemima]

I.

[Jamie Laing]

Interesting. Yeah.

[Jemima]

It's interesting that that one place in America. Don't ask me to be too more specific than that. Have their own way of saying hello.

[Jamie Laing]

Howdy.

[Jemima]

That's not interesting at all.

[Jamie Laing]

It is interesting. I've been to Wyoming. I've been to Wyoming.

[Dr. Julie]

What?

[Jamie Laing]

Well, Wyoming is like very like country. I mean, as in like cowboy country. And so I've been there. I've been on a ranch. I spent two. Two weeks there with my dad. I said howdy and I rode a horse and ate hash.

[Jemima]

We're in London. What's the most London way of saying hello? Oh, I know.

[Jamie Laing]

Good. Eh? No, that's Australian. All right, mate.

[Jemima]

Oh, that's good. I was just gonna say hello.

[Jamie Laing]

All right, mate. Hello. That's probably the most all right. All right, how you doing?

[Jemima]

That's weird because you say how are you doing? Twice. Like, all right. Are you all right?

[Jamie Laing]

How you doing? All right. How you doing? Hey, by the way, who are you?

[Jemima]

Jemima. I'm producer Jemima.

[Jamie Laing]

This is producer Jemima. I'm Jamie. I'm the host of Great Company and this is our show. Welcome back to all of you OG listeners. And if you're a new listener, hello, Jemima Produce. Jemima, over here. What's called pj.

[Jemima]

There you go.

[Dr. Julie]

I got that.

[Jamie Laing]

And one of our guests who's coming up, actually, we. We came in and we recorded with Gonna Be bj. We're not gonna say it is, but he called her PJ and she was over the moon. So if you ever see Jemima, call her pj. But today's guest I'm very, very, very, very excited about because we have Dr. Julie on. I've tried to get Dr. Julie on for ages. I'm a huge fan of hers. If you don't know who Dr. Julie is, she is a psychologist. She is a doctor on social media. She talks a lot about mental health and how you help yourself through different things. She's very into self help and huge following online. She's written books which have been incredible. And her new book which is coming out is called Open when it's so Cool. And she's going to explain about it, but it's very good. So if you're feeling anxious, Open when you're feeling anxious. If you're feeling tired. Open when you're feeling tired. It's very, very good. So you can go to your certain chapter when you're feeling a certain way. It's amazing.

[Jemima]

Yeah, no, she's fantastic and she's really, really big on TikTok and one of her main things going onto TikTok was because often therapy can be very difficult to access for loads and loads of people. So one of the reasons why she wanted to put like handy little tips and things for helping people, you know, if you are experiencing some anxiety or heartbreak or anything or difficulty in relationships and with friends.

[Jamie Laing]

She want everyone.

[Jemima]

She wanted everyone. Yeah, she wanted everyone to have access to this information because it is a life changing.

[Jamie Laing]

She's amazing in so many ways. And these are the episodes that I absolutely love because you can take so many things from it. It is going to be amazing. So I think we should stop talking. Yeah, let's get her in, by the way, quickly. If you haven't subscribed to the show already, please do.

[Jemima]

And if you so rich of you, let's stop talking and then asking people.

[Jamie Laing]

To do something, go on. And if you want to send us an email, we'd love to hear from you. Great company [e-mail] and you can check out our DMs, you can check out our DMs, you can slide into our DMs.

[Jemima]

You can't check out our DMs.

[Jamie Laing]

You can't, but we do. And you can send us messages there. We want to hear from you guys because we absolutely love it. We're trying to build this amazing community and so many of you are listening. But we want to hear from more of you. So please, please get in touch. We'd love to hear what you think of the show. Okay, are you ready for this?

[Jemima]

I'm ready.

[Jamie Laing]

Please enjoy this episode of great company with Dr. Julie.

[Dr. Julie]

Hi, I'm Dr. Julie and I'm in great company.

[Jamie Laing]

Can I just say before we start, I am the biggest fan of yours. I think what you do and how you help people is just incredible. I really, truly do. And I'm not just saying that to butter you up before we start, but it really is. You blew up massively on social media. I mean, I was looking again at your TikTok and your Instagram. I mean the views that you get are crazy and people absolutely love it. And then you wrote your debut book, why has nobody told me this before? Which the biggest seller in that year, 2022.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah, yeah. Which blew My mind, because I kind of.

[Jamie Laing]

It doesn't blow my mind. It's unbelievable.

[Dr. Julie]

I had that feeling.

[Jamie Laing]

I can see you slightly reserved as I said it.

[Dr. Julie]

Oh, it's still a cringe moment. Because when you.

[Jamie Laing]

Why?

[Dr. Julie]

When you write something and you put everything into something, I remember having that feeling of, I don't want it to do badly, but I also don't really want anyone to read it. And it's just that vulnerability, I guess, of kind of putting yourself out there again. Maybe it's the sort of the introvert side. And I had images in my mind of, can you remember the Alan Partridge episodes where he's trying to flog his book before they pulp it? And then I was thinking, oh, God, I'm gonna be stood in the local shopping center trying to flog books. And I'm really glad that didn't happen.

[Jamie Laing]

But do you know what it makes me? I can imagine so many people listening now. It's gonna make them feel so much better that someone, like, also has those fears and those imposter syndrome and everything flooding through.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah. The idea that there are lots of skills you can learn and tools at your disposal that you can use to help get you through human moments, but it doesn't stop you from being human and having those human moments. And really what happened with the first book was, yes, it was incredible. The people that got in touch and said, it's helped me with this. It's helped me with that. And I had some lovely stories of people who were carrying the book around with them to help them through really difficult moments. And. And that was kind of given to me as a compliment. And all I could think of was, oh, I didn't really write it for those moments. It was more of a set of, you know, things that people learn to help you get through later on when things get bad. But, you know, if you're in the thick of it and you're trying to work out which way is up, you don't want me to come along and say, oh, you know, if you'd have just learned mindfulness six months ago, you'd be all right now. You don't need that, do you? You need. You know, when you're in the moment, you need someone to grab you by the shoulders, look you in the eye and say, I know a way through. Follow me. Right. This is. You know, here we are. This is what you need to focus on. And here's the next step you need to take to get through this moment.

[Jamie Laing]

I remember again, I keep. But I spoke about this before, but the. I was really struggling with anxiety. Terrible. And I struggled with anxiety throughout my 20s. I joined a television show. It was a reality show. I didn't really understand what was going on. Life was all over the place. I drank a lot to cover up any emotion. And I got myself into a really sort of sticky situation where, you know, to the point where I had depersonalization, like, it was not great. And I said nothing to anybody. Nothing, Nobody, Nobody. Didn't tell. My mum didn't tell. I always used to say that I feel. Oh, do you ever feel nervous? Do you ever feel like you're scared? That's how I'd say, and then go, no, I don't feel scared. You don't ever feel like you're scared. Because I was trying to understand what anxiety was and I. And every single time I talk about it, I even get emotional. It's so strange. But my great friend Toby, who was best man at my wedding, I decided to tell him and I phoned him up and I remember I was pacing up and down the street and I was thinking, okay, I'm going to tell him, I'm going to tell him, I'm going to tell him. So I phoned him up and I said, hey. I call him, Bubble. Hey, Bubble. He goes, hey, you okay? And I go, not really. And I sort of broke down. And he went, what's the matter? And I went, I don't know, but something's wrong with me. And he went, don't worry, we'll go through it together. And it was this insane echo back. That was all I was desperate for, for someone to throw a tennis ball and it would bounce back towards me and I'd get something back. And my biggest upset is when you realize that people don't reach out, that connection is lost because you're either scared or you're nervous, you don't have anyone or you're stuck in a situation where you can't. And it's so upsetting that actually that human connection and talking about it and releasing your emotions is so. It's so important.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah. And that person doesn't even need to have the skills to solve it for you. That's the interesting part, isn't it? That just knowing that someone is going to walk alongside you through it is everything. You know, in therapy, I don't fix anyone. They do that work themselves. I'm just willing to hold that space for them and guide them as they. As they move through it. And, you know, that's our social side, isn't it? We just need each other, but we find such strength in that. So, yeah, that's what this is really about, was just, you know, offering some words to people when they're in that moment.

[Jamie Laing]

And yeah, you. And we're going to go into the book in your chats, which I can't wait. But the you, you talk about these amazing things, right? Which is where you almost say you lean into things. So people talk about affirmations or always talking positively about yourself. And your argument is, yes, that's a good thing, but not all the time.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah, I think I advocate for honesty, but respectful honesty. So, you know, I'll often talk to people in sessions about, you know, people will just hold on to the self critical side. So, you know, they think that being really hard on themselves has given them all their drive and all their achievements and all their productivity. And so if they're nice to themselves, that that will somehow kind of zap all their drive for life and they'll just become nothing and they'll have no drive to do anything. So they, you know, hold on to that, that idea that they need to be really hard on themselves. Whereas if you're respectful of yourself and you talk to yourself in a way that is, is honest. So there's, there's this kind of difference between being really hard on yourself and being indulgent and saying, well, you know, you're fine. You're absolutely fine as you are. Actually, we don't trust the friends in our lives that are like that. We trust the people who say, yeah, do you know what? This isn't the best thing for you or here's what you should be doing. You messed up there, but we're going to go for it together. So there's something about honesty that comes with respect at the same time. So it's not the person who hammers you into the ground for making a mistake, but it's also not the person who denies the fact that you've made one. It's the person who says, okay, here we are. This hasn't gone as you predicted. You didn't anticipate this, but let's make it better. Here's, here's where we focus next.

[Jamie Laing]

So, Alex, so you have three kids.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you do that with your kids? Do you say when they've done something wrong or they need to change, you say, hey, this is probably not right, but you know, we can change it and make it better by doing this way?

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah, yeah, I think I tried to do that with myself first.

[Jamie Laing]

Great.

[Dr. Julie]

And so that, that then. And I just never claim to be the perfect parent at all. There are moments where, you know, if they've done something wrong that I'm not going. Okay, here's my therapeutic approach, you know, being realistic about it. But as a, I think it's a general feel for things that it gets me if, if I hear any of my kids speaking about themselves in a way that's sort of full of contempt or, you know, vicious, you know, that sort of heard my 12 year old girl mention for the first time I'd ever heard it, where she expressed discomfort or dissatisfaction with her appearance. Oh, as a mother, that just got me. And it's natural part of growing up, right?

[Jamie Laing]

Totally.

[Dr. Julie]

It's normal to have that. But my urge was to jump in and be like, no, no, you are perfect as you are. But there's a sort of, one of the sort of therapeutic techniques we use in the room with someone is guided discovery. So you're never sat there trying to convince, you know, if you came into the room.

[Jamie Laing]

So let's try that. If I was gonna do, if we're gonna do this with each other, if you were gonna play it towards me, how would that work?

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah. So if you came into the room and said, you know, I hate myself.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Dr. Julie]

I'm not gonna sit there and say, here's half a dozen reasons why you shouldn't. I'm, I'm going to talk you through or you're going to do the talking, but I'm going to just guide that conversation to allow you to explore that. Either way. And whether it's warranted, I want you to discover that that's not warranted. Right. If I tell you that, you know, you shouldn't think that, that's not going to help you and you're not going to suddenly not think it just because I told you to not to. You need to discover that for yourself and come to your own conclusions about that.

[Jamie Laing]

That is so interesting. But so that, that instant validation. So I say, I, I feel, I don't think I look good at the moment. And you say, no, you look great because of this and this. That will validate me for a bit, but I won't actually believe it after a while. That will just go in a second. So that self discovery you have to do yourself. It's like, it's like me giving the answer to a math exam but not understanding how the equation works.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah, exactly. It won't stick unless you kind of have come to that rationale yourself or. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow. I Didn't even think of that. That's so interesting because I think we seek validation all the time, but actually it needs to come from. They always. There's always this sort of hypotheses, which is like, you know, you've got to heal the inside out. Right. But if you're just being validated all the time, yeah, you're great, you're fine. That's not actually healing it.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah. And it's a bit like the value of sport for kids. Right. You know, if you. You could tell your child that, you know, you're a winner and. And it's, you know, it's okay to lose, but until they've had experiences of winning and losing and getting through it, they're never really prepared for that. So that's where things like sport and stuff are great, because you get to kind of. It's only through action. Your brain learns through evidence. So action is your kind of, you know, super. What's the word? Kind of secret weapon, really. That is. Yeah. Your superpower. That's the word I'm looking for. That's going to kind of enable you to really discover things for yourself and then hold on to it.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay. So if we are in a relationship, which lots of people listening probably are, and they're struggling to communicate with their partner, or their partner is not really understanding what their partner is trying to tell them, how do you fix that? How do you make sure that communication works? Because I always believe that relationships, unless there's cheating or whatever, go on. But relationships break down because the communication is. Right. One. One side is not understanding the other.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

So how do you sort that.

[Dr. Julie]

I think something that probably goes wrong is when people avoid the difficult conversations that if something. If we know something's going to bring up emotion or it's going to be a little bit testy or heated, then we avoid it and we cover over and those sorts of things. That tendency to do that is a bit like trying to hold air underwater. Like, it will always find its way to the surface, but when you least expect it. So, as you know, if you often do this exercise in therapy, actually people. Where we can probably do it with the book, actually. So if you put your hand on the other side and just push against me. So if you imagine that feels great. If you imagine that is a kind of a bunch of feelings or issues that you don't really want to deal with, it's uncomfortable. And so. And so you don't. Right. You just hold it at arm's length. You can carry on with the rest of your day. And you're pushing it away.

[Jamie Laing]

So we're holding. So for people listening, we're, We're. You. You're pushing one side of the book, I'm pushing the other side of. But we have the.

[Dr. Julie]

I'm all the. I'm all. All the shit you don't want to have. I'm all the. The thoughts and the feelings or the difficulties in your relationship that you don't really want to deal with.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Dr. Julie]

And I'm trying to be in your head. And so you have to keep pushing back to keep me at bay.

[Jamie Laing]

Correct.

[Dr. Julie]

So now if we said, okay, end of this, go about the rest of your day, and I'm just gonna be doing this all day. And it would be difficult to kind of focus on stuff. But also when you get tired or you let your guard down, this is going to come flying over and hit you in the face. So that's when all the difficult emotions suddenly hit us and we feel absolutely overwhelmed because we've been holding it back for so long. And then something's happened, we've let our down, and it's just like, open the floodgates. Right. So now if we take that. And this time, if you just hold your hand out.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Dr. Julie]

And it's the same stuff you don't want to have. Same uncomfortable stuff. But I'm just going to hold it there for you. You're just going to just carry it with you. So if. Now we said, okay, end of the session, you go about the rest of your day, but you just keep that with you. That would feel fundamentally different, right?

[Jamie Laing]

Feels different. Yeah.

[Dr. Julie]

So you would be more able to engage in conversation, do your work. Your arm's going to be less tired. And you still get to choose to look down. It's still there. But you get to choose when you consider it and when you think about it and when you work on it. But you're also free to do all the other stuff, whereas, you know, it's not waiting to hit you in the face when you. As soon as you let your guard down. So it's that kind of difference of if you're not pushing stuff away, if you're willing to hold. Doesn't fight against you so much.

[Jamie Laing]

But Judy. But some people find it so tricky to have those conversations.

[Dr. Julie]

Oh, yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And. And it's so hard, right. Because it's like, oh, I don't think I can talk about it. I don't think I can say it. Someone once told me the best way to have a conversation with your partner is to lie on a bed and look at the ceiling so you don't face each other.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah. Or go for a walk, that kind of thing. When you're not, sometimes that can help. If the, the intimacy side of it is tricky or kind of overwhelming, that can be really helpful. But also it's really helpful to go into it knowing what your goal is. And by that I mean often disruptions in relationships are they give you the sense that you want to win. You just want them to understand your point of view and then it will all be all right and they feel exactly the same way. And so if the aim is to win, the relationship loses. Because the only person that feels good in victory and looks good in victory or feels that they look good in victory is you. So if you win the argument, you feel fantastic. And actually the person you're trying to have a relationship with feels crushed. And that does nothing for your relationship. What they get is a sense of how he was willing to completely annihilate my self esteem in order to feel like he was right or, you know, he was willing to really break my heart in order to win this argument. And that stays. And that kind of chips away at trust and the ability to connect in the future. So when, when we sort of enter into those difficult conversations or arguments with the set idea that, okay, I married this person, I want to have a really good relationship. Improving relationship with them in the years ahead. Actually, our goal here is resolution and finding a compromise. And that's going to be really difficult because I'm really angry at this person and they've done this and they've done that. But let's, you know, and also kind of seeing it as it's you two against the problem rather than you against them, it just, it changes the dynamic of how you're going to approach the problem.

[Jamie Laing]

Judy, you've just changed my whole perception. I'm going to be honest. I had an argument with my wife today. Yeah, I had a big argument. It wasn't my fault. She. We woke up this morning, we had to. We were renovating a house. We had to go, God, the first world problems. We had to go and look at some marble. I just think we had to go look. And she was very stressed and it wasn't my fault. Right. It actually generally wasn't my fault. And so I wanted to try and prove to her that it wasn't my fault.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

So she got cross at me. Hang on, she's getting cross. This is unfair. This is not my fault. I need to win this argument to prove to her that this isn't my fault. And you're right. And I do. I win the argument because it's not my fault. And what I get from her is an apology. And, oh, I'm sorry. That doesn't make. It makes me feel a bit better because I've won. But actually, you're so right. What is the issue here surrounding it? What is the resolution? We're married. It's okay. She's obviously struggling with something there. Me wanting to win the argument because I feel like she's. That's the total wrong attitude to have.

[Dr. Julie]

And yet it's so natural. Such a natural response to feeling like you're being attacked is the defenses go up. Right? And that's where, you know, when. When we have an issue with the other person going in with the criticism or the attack or, you know, if any of that is laced with contempt, like a you always do this or you never do that, then the other person immediately, you know, the emotional shutters come down because you're being personally, you know, your character is being attacked. And so you're just in defense mode because it triggers shame. And when you feel shame, you are just defending yourself. You are just protecting yourself. You can't really do anything else. It's on impulse. So that's when you kind of. Then you go back and bite back, and then they bite back. And so it is natural. But sometimes just having that awareness of what's my goal here? I want to spend my life with this person. Let me take two minutes out in the room to just recalibrate and think about that. And then I can come back in with something a bit different.

[Jamie Laing]

Why, as humans do we have that sort of innate ability to avoid fault? We never want it to be. It's within us, right? We want to blame others because if we blame ourselves, that's wrong. So we try and find blame wherever we can. Why do we do that?

[Dr. Julie]

Because it's painful, isn't it? No one ever wants to feel that. You know, it's so psychologically threatening to feel like you might not be enough. And, you know, it's really painful. And. And when you then that triggers shame. There's no learning to be had in shame. It's just threatening. It's just protect. Just shut down, withdraw. And all of that leads to kind of negative outcomes. So we. We try to defend ourselves and we try to, you know, convince the people. That's natural, right? Convince the people in your life you're okay, you're Enough. And. And in the same respect, we're trying to convince ourselves of that, too, that. That we're enough. Because if you don't believe that, you're going to be in turmoil, absolute turmoil.

[Jamie Laing]

So with your partner, with your husband, when you have an argument, I'm always right. There we go.

[Dr. Julie]

Different for us.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you think he's listening now? And he's like, hang on a second.

[Dr. Julie]

You never do that.

[Jamie Laing]

Admit. I mean, what I'm saying is, do you practice what you preach or try to.

[Dr. Julie]

Try to. But also, I never want to give the impression to people that because I've read the books and know the stuff that that makes it easy to do or that that makes you sort of somehow more. More than human, you know, you. So part of this is you learn how to deal with relationships early in life based upon the people you're in relationships with as a child, and that becomes your template that you then take into adulthood. And so when something happens that feels familiar in your mind. So. So your brain is constantly taking information in from the outside world, but it's not only taking that information, it's trying to make meaning out of it. And so to do that, it will take memories from the past, past experiences when you have felt similar.

[Jamie Laing]

And give me an example.

[Dr. Julie]

So let's say. Let's say as a child, you were always criticized for sort of academic imperfections or something like that. All right?

[Jamie Laing]

And then.

[Dr. Julie]

And then as an adult, you're sat there with your wife and you're doing your accounts or something, and you make a mistake and she mocks you for doing it, then it will trigger that really painful feelings that you had as a child of kind of just never being good enough. And so your reaction, even though it might have been a little, you know, she probably thought this is just a bit of banter, just, you know, he might even laugh at the reaction. It might trigger such an emotional response because your brain has made meaning that perhaps isn't in this situation, but it feels like something that felt that happened back then. So you'll have this big emotional reaction and. And she'll go, what happened there? What. You know, why did that, you know, push a button? She didn't see it coming. Because your brain is making meaning of it based on past experiences that you've had that felt similar.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow. So that child within us, that inner child, doesn't go. It's hard to heal that inner child in some ways.

[Dr. Julie]

So you've got. Yeah, you've got a series of kind of templates for so all your experiences as a child, you're absorbing all that and you're learning, okay, when this happens, do that, and that leads to that outcome. Or, you know, you're learning how to survive relationships as a child who has no control over them but desperately needs them to survive. So you develop kind of survival strategies in complex and difficult relationships as a child, and then those templates carry on into adulthood. So. But they're less helpful often in adulthood because the relationships are different. You're not child to adult, you're adult to adult, and you have responsibilities and you've got to compromise and those sorts of things. So then they become disruptive, and then we have to kind of. You can't necessarily unlearn or remove those templates that you have. You can become aware of what they are, become aware of when they're detrimental, and then make adjustments. You know, you can keep learning so you can develop new patterns with your partner and they can override the old ones.

[Jamie Laing]

If someone's listening now, right, and they're recognizing that perhaps they're being triggered, or they're having conversations with their partner or their friends and they bring up emotions and they're listening, suddenly go, oh, that I'm making the connection from when I was a child to now. And maybe it's bringing up those emotions. How do we stop the cycle? What tips would you give to someone listening who is in that sort of cycle and can't get out of it?

[Dr. Julie]

So it happens really gradually. So what happens in therapy is people will come along and talk about the things that have been happening, and you, you literally map it out on paper so you'll go, okay, this happened, then you felt this. And so because of that feeling, you did that to cope with the feeling, and it made the feeling go away, but then the feeling came back, so you did that thing again and you went around the cy again. So you kind of map out these cycles that you get stuck in, and what you find is week after week, the details of the cycle change, but the cycle is the same generally. And what you're doing over those weeks is you're building up this familiarity with the cycles. You get stuck in this. You know, when you. You think, I do this same thing over and over again, and I don't know why, I just find myself doing the same thing. And when you kind of look into it in therapy like that, you start to notice it in the moment. So in, in therapy, you're doing it in hindsight. You're looking back at the week gone by, but then when you're in it in real life, you start to go, oh, I know where I am on the cycle. We've done this 10 times. I know. And then what you get is this moment of opportunity to either go around the same cycle again or do something different, because you would have talked about what the exit is and where. Where you break it. Sometimes you'll go around the same old cycle again and sometimes you won't.

[Jamie Laing]

That. That bit is hard to take that different direction.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Because it's so easy. Because what you're used to, the familiar, that cycle, that's easier to stay in that. Right.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah. Yeah. So you. You go with the familiar rather than something new or different that feels unpredictable. Even if the familiar is destructive, it's a coping strategy that probably worked back then. So something you did as a child, you know, if someone who has an avoidant kind of style, you know, avoidant attachment style, which is. So if you're an avoidant attachment style, you maybe struggle with intimacy or you pull back and withdraw from people. And it might be that in your childhood you didn't have, like, physical affection or your caregivers were unpredictable. And so actually it felt unsafe to be very close to them. And so you. It felt safer to be, you know, to pull back. And then in adulthood, that might be kind of difficult for your relationships. So, you know, if you've got. So if you've got that sort of avoidant strategy that came from childhood, in adulthood, it might not work. Does that make sense?

[Jamie Laing]

Makes total sense.

[Dr. Julie]

I don't think I answered your question.

[Jamie Laing]

No, you didn't. No, no, no, you answered that perfectly. That's exactly what we're saying. So, okay, so going into that sort of relationships as well. Right. If you're in a relationship and you're going around in the same cycle where you're either constantly meeting people and it doesn't feel right and you're breaking up with them and you're just going, I just don't feel like I'm lucky in love.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Is that the wrong partnership or is perhaps something with you in relationships that is making these relationships not work? Because you're doing the same thing. You're stuck in the same cycle.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah. And. And the thing is, it's. It's one thing to just think, well, you know, I've had bad luck and, you know, men are whatever. Yeah, you can say it, you can say it, and. And therefore, you know, and. And then feel a victim of it. But it's really, really interesting the. The progress you can make when you're brave enough to look at your part in that cycle. So, you know, are you accepting certain types of behavior from the beginning that if you can pull back, you might be able to protect yourself in the future? And are you, you know, not connecting with certain people that would be more healthy for you to get in a relationship with? Because you're following that. That pattern of, you know, you. You seek relationships that feel familiar, not that feel healthy.

[Jamie Laing]

I had Alain de Botan on the podcast, and he said we look for familiarity rather than happiness.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. You. Because anything that's unpredictable or novel is stressful and, you know, and dangerous. Potentially, it's a threat. So, yeah, even if you've had a kind of, you know, destructive relationships, you will have that natural inclination to go for something that feels similar, not on a conscious level. And. And that's the thing. It's not about fault or, you know, you're in this place because it's your fault. That's not true at all. It's. It's how we're set up to. You know, you get your templates early in life for what to expect from other people. And then why would you know any different? You know, why. Why would you. Why would you have a template for what healthy relationship is if you haven't had one yet? So, you know, often that's then about sort of working on creating, you know, this idea of what healthy relationship would look like or one that felt safe and then working towards it.

[Jamie Laing]

If someone has been in a relationship and they're that type of person who fears abandonment and worry about people leaving, and then suddenly that person leaves and they can't deal with the heartbreak. Because I know so many people listening are dealing with heartbreak or have dealt with it and not over. How do you get that?

[Dr. Julie]

It's a grieving process. I think you people talk about grief when someone dies, but you also grieve. Lots of different endings. You can grieve. So there's that kind of process of, you know, yearning for someone so you might, you know, you'll miss them. And it's really key to remember that missing someone doesn't mean that relationship was right for you. You can miss someone for all the good parts of it and still recognize that it wasn't for you. And like we were saying about even, you know, your sort of early adulthood, there might be parts of that that now you're, you know, responsible adult with, you know, wife and kids and a job and everything that you. You might miss some of that, some Aspects of that, the freedoms or the fun, that kind of thing. But it doesn't mean you want it back. So it's really important to kind of distinguish that. That it's okay to yearn for something without stepping back into something that wasn't for you, but also to kind of shift expectations that. That you should be over it by now. Like, if you. If you feel something, go ahead and feel it. It's all right. Just allow that to be. It's natural.

[Jamie Laing]

It's okay to feel the way you're feeling.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah. Whatever it is.

[Jamie Laing]

If you're still missing someone, that's all right. That can happen with friends as well. Where. When you. When you fall out with a friend, that's almost sometimes worse than a breakup, especially if they've been a friend for a long time.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah, I think it comes with a lot of guilt, doesn't it, as well? Because we have. We grew up with that kind of idea that, you know, friends are forever and that kind of thing. And these sort of. Hollywood has a lot to answer for with these kind of stories of like, you know, friendships that just endure for life and. And those do exist, but there are also other friendships that come and go, and that's okay too. Or there are times when you realize as you get older, maybe your values change or their values change and it no longer fits. And it's okay to call it a day. If a friendship is unhealthy for you or if someone is causing you harm in that friendship, if it's not working for you, it's okay to pull back from it.

[Jamie Laing]

That brings on to your post that you did, which is three signs your friends are not really your friends. What are those three signs?

[Dr. Julie]

Oh, God, that's a question, isn't it? It. Can I remember what the video was? I guess there are lots of signs that a friend might not have your best interests at heart. And the general idea is that you sometimes notice the signs in subtle. They're so subtle that it's difficult to distinguish. You know, there's not a clear kind of. Like, this friend is rubbish now. It's a sort of. That felt a bit odd. Or you walk away thinking, do they really like me? Or are they gonna be talking about me now? Or, you know, you get excluded from a couple of things and oh, okay. So it's always really subtle stuff and you start to question yourself and doubt yourself about whether. Whether you did something that the others were judging or whether. Whether you sharing that personal victory was too braggy because the response was cold. Or these kind of things. So you start to really question yourself. And I think that's a key thing, is if. If you're unable to share good or bad news because of the reaction. So let's say you tried to share something. You know, you're struggling, and there's some, you know, something's happened in your life that's difficult, and really what you're seeking is some connection and support, and instead it gets slammed down with, oh, well, I've got. I've, you know, worse has happened to me, or. And so your bid for connection is squashed, or maybe you're sharing good news and something really great's happened to you. And, you know, oh, you know, I started this podcast. It's done really well. And then what you find is it gets shut down, or they don't want to talk about it, or you get a sort of compliment that feels like it's laced with insult or contempt, and you come away just feeling terrible, then I think they're just indications. They're not indications necessarily that you should just end the friendship, but they're indications that maybe that person's struggling with this thing or if it happens over a long period of time, maybe they're struggling with me. Maybe we don't have the connection that we did before, or maybe they don't have my best interests at heart.

[Jamie Laing]

That's a really tough thing to. To work out. And also, when we're taught about breakups with individuals, right, with partners, with love interests, but when it comes to friendships, no one teaches you how to break up with a friend. So how do you break up with a friend?

[Dr. Julie]

Well, I guess it depends on the friend, doesn't it? And the situation and. And the connection that you have. You know, some. Some endings will be big and emotional and have that big conversation, and others will be, you know, friends that you've had because you were in the same places at the same times. And. And so it's able to just kind of. You're able to just part ways without a, you know, a big confronting conversation about what's gone wrong. Yeah, I think it depends on. On the situation with that.

[Jamie Laing]

If someone listening to this right now is maybe their son or their daughter or their friend or their husband or wife or cousin is acting distant, maybe they're anxious, maybe you think they're depressed. What kind of signs could you look out for?

[Dr. Julie]

So if someone else is kind of struggling or if their mental health's deteriorating, I think if you know someone well, you'll notice certain changes. So it Might be that they stop coming out to see you. So maybe you have a social thing and they start avoiding it or they start pulling out a last minute, or they stop calling and they used to call. Or there'll be certain changes. If you know someone really well, the changes can be quite subtle, but you'll pick up on it more if you know them more, if that makes sense. It's easier with closer friends, isn't it? But the exact changes differ between individuals and dependent on what's going on with them. So something like the not turning up to socials might be because they're struggling with anxiety or maybe they're really low and so they're not feeling able to kind of socialize and things. And in some ways I think it's just checking in, isn't it? It's just not. Sometimes you'll notice something and it'll be nothing and it, or it won't be the, you know, a big deal. But the fact that you checked in is everything you just said, okay, you know, you didn't come to the last couple of socials, just want to see if you're all right. And, you know, that means everything to someone, whether they were struggling or not. So. But often I think we're so worried about saying the wrong thing that we don't say anything at all. And so kind of leaning into that awkward moment of we might end up having a really emotional conversation. Here am I brace for it. It's. Yeah, it's so valuable if you can, if you can be brave enough to start that conversation and if you're in.

[Jamie Laing]

That thick of it, if you're in that dark cloud moment, you're feeling anxious or depressed. My big thing is that you can get through it.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And, and I, and I think that's what I want people to know, is that you really can get through it, can't you?

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah. In my work over the years when I was in the NHS actually, I worked in sort of acute services where people were really, really poorly. And I, I've. I've honestly worked with people who you just, you wouldn't believe, you know, if this, if their lives were for a movie, you wouldn't believe it could be true. And they're in such a terrible place that you can't imagine they're going to get through it. And then you work and you work and you work and it starts to change and things start to get better. And so I've seen people go from ultimate darkness to building a life for themselves. And so I Know that it's possible. Convincing other people of that is difficult because when you're in it, you can't see that. Right. And so sometimes the work is just about kind of almost a bit of a lighthouse thing, you know, where you're just casting a light to, okay, I can't. I can't get in there and drag you out of the ocean, but I can just show you where the shore is and I can show you that it's there. I love that you've got to swim.

[Jamie Laing]

That's a great analogy.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah. So it's because it's important.

[Jamie Laing]

Right. Because I think I always say that when you're feeling very blue or you're feeling very anxious, very down, it's a gray sky, but there's blue sky above the gray clouds. You just have to find a way of getting back to the blue sky.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah. And you have to trust that it's there even when you can't see it. And that actually, that reminds me of something. I kind of. Conversations I used to have with people that even when, you know, when people are in really dark places and they can't see, they don't feel hopeful about a good outcome. I sort of ask people to trust me to hold that hope for them that I've seen people come through it. And so when you're feeling like it can't happen, just trust me that I can hold that hope for you until you can start to see it yourself. Because it is hard when you're in the moment. You can't be convinced that it's all going to be okay when you're in it, because it feels awful.

[Jamie Laing]

One of your chapters in your book, which is amazing, I'm going to get exactly right, is when you want to be less awkward around people.

[Dr. Julie]

Yes.

[Jamie Laing]

Social anxiety is such a huge thing at the moment.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And I think it's a fault of social media because we spend more time on social media and less time interacting with each other.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

How do we accept social anxiety? How do we feel less awkward around people?

[Dr. Julie]

I think to begin with, in order to build your kind of social confidence, you have to be willing to have the awkward moments. So if you think, well, I'm not going to be sociable and interact with people until I feel confident, you will just never get there. So, you know, the most confident people, it's not like they've worked out how to avoid awkward moments. It's that they kind of don't focus on it. That they're not just focused on not having those moments. It's that they, they're focused on. I'm going to get to know this person and I'm going to find out how they are and I'm going to build a connection with them. And, and if there are sort of awkward moments along the way, I know I can get over those. That's fine. You know, we'll just leap over it and, and move on to the next bit. And so if, if you're really, you know, sometimes if you're so focused on the thing you're trying to avoid, you end up creating it in. You know, if you're, if you're going into a social situation or just trying not to be awkward, then you end up feeling exactly that. So I think, yeah, some of it is, but also when it's something like a fear, like social anxiety, the way that we work on that is not sort of flooding you with the, the scariest thing to begin with, you, you literally create a list of situations that feel anxiety provoking and, you know, in order of how intensely scary they are. The worst thing at the top might be, I don't know, going to a wedding or something. And then the thing right at the bottom might be, you know, chatting to the person in your local convenience store. You start with that and you expose.

[Jamie Laing]

Yourself to it bit by bit.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah, yeah. So you do that. You have, you know, a slightly challenging but achievable experience. You reflect on that, learn from it. You gain this kind of dopamine hit or a little bit of momentum, a little bit of drive to go and do the next thing. And then, and then once you do that, you get another little achievement. And then you do. So it's very gradual, step by step. But what often what you find is when you create that list, you never really have to do the scariest things because as you move your way up the list, you're building this confidence in yourself that for good or bad, whatever happens, you can survive it. And so you build this sort of confidence, then that makes those, these ones at the top of the list kind of fall away.

[Jamie Laing]

What I'm really taking from this conversation is that you can change your makeup. That's the most important thing. That if you feel like, oh, I'm just socially anxious, oh, I'm just anxious. Oh, I'm just depressed. I know. You can change that.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

You can improve those things.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah. And. And it's not like you kind of eradicate that experience. You add to it.

[Jamie Laing]

Sure.

[Dr. Julie]

Because that's so valuable, isn't it?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Dr. Julie]

If you are, you know, the life and soul of the party. But you know what it's like not to feel that. You know what it's like to feel terrified walking into a room. That's going to make you such a nicer person to the people who feel feel terrified walking into the room, isn't it? And you because you know what it's like to be them. And and so you know it's you're much more likely then to use your new skills to make people feel welcome and develop really nice connections with them and stuff like that.

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[Jamie Laing]

Do I am what I really love is that you're writing books because you you want them to make a difference. You want them to help. You're doing it for a real purpose and your new book Open when is so great. Because when you do, you have those moments and especially when you're in the thick of it, when that dark cloud is on your head and you don't know which way to go, you can open up your book and you can look at the chapters and you can find the thing that relates to you. You know, when your friends are not your friends, when you want to be less awkward, you can find these little chapters and you can turn to it and get help.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

When you compare yourself and come up short, it's the first one.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Why do you pick that as the first chapter? And secondly, how do we stop comparing ourselves to everyone else?

[Dr. Julie]

You don't. You don't tell me that. But the thing is, it's. Again, comparison is natural and inbuilt in you. You're a social being. It's important to know if you live in a community, it's important to know whether you're measuring up and whether you're doing the right thing in that community by the other people. And so comparison can be really, really useful if we're doing it right. But what happens is we make the wrong comparisons that then lead us to just turmoil and, and, and that's the way of working out whether the comparisons you're making are useful to you or not. It's how you feel afterwards.

[Jamie Laing]

So explain that to me.

[Dr. Julie]

So if you're sat on socials and you're looking at some, I don't know, movie star and comparing yourself to them, someone who's completely different to you, someone, you have no idea what their real life is like or how awful it might be behind the scenes. You're comparing your life where you're in full view of all the, you know, worst bits of it, and you're comparing that to the best bits of someone across the world, you're probably gonna feel like after that, and you're gonna feel terrible and. And that's a sign that. Not that your life is awful and you're worthless. It's a sign that you made a bad comparison that doesn't really help you. But let's say you're. I don't know, you're trying to master podcasts and interviews, and you want to get better at a certain thing, and doing something in a certain way would really help, you know, be a really helpful comparison to find someone you knew that had a kind of, you know, it was along the similar lines in a similar sort of journey, but they liked to do something in interviews that you thought, oh, that's brilliant. I want to learn that. It's very specific. It's Based on your goals and you improving yourself and so you can make a comparison about, I do it this way, but I like how they do it, so how can I learn from that? So that envy becomes inspiration and it can be constructive because it leads to action. Yeah. So you gain.

[Jamie Laing]

So good.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah, you gain from that experience rather than just, you know, feeling terrible.

[Jamie Laing]

Because we all feel envious. Yeah, of course we do. And. But you change that into make it inspirational and you use it for your own tool.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah, yeah. So you can have that feeling. You can decide whether, okay, if I go down this route, that's not really helpful to me, but if I go down this road, that's helpful to me.

[Jamie Laing]

Social media allows us to pretty much Google anything.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Diagnosis, whatever. How dangerous is that on TikTok where you can just basically self diagnose yourself all the time?

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah, I think to a certain degree it's been helpful that people have been able to start conversations they would never have dared to have in person. And so they've become aware enough that they then go and see a doctor. Or, you know, I get lots of messages where people say, oh, you know, I saw your video. So I started therapy six weeks in, and it's helping so much. Thanks. And that's when you think, yes, perhaps the other stuff where there's people online that don't have any kind of training or real education in mental health, but they're kind of giving an opinion, and then someone else across the world is looking at that and seeing it as if it has kind of authority or, you know, is a fact, then that can lead to all kind of. All kinds of problems, I guess, for those people. But that's what you have. Right. If you have an open marketplace, it's similar to real life though, isn't it? Right. So if you're struggling, you get the choice whether you, you come see like a trained psychologist or you could go and get a tarot reading, or you could go and get some Reiki or you could, you know, go and get hypnotized. So you have choices. And, and I guess that's a reflection of the fact that social media is this kind of free marketplace where all sorts of people are allowed to be on there. Yeah. Whether you. I think that's where we have to kind of teach people and arm them up to the hilt with that kind of critical thinking where you don't take everything you see as fact, you question everything. Even the stuff from trained people. Right. And. Or scientists like, you know, being. Being able to question what you're hearing and get a second opinion and a third opinion and, and do. That's just. I just think it's one of the most important skills we're going to have going forward.

[Jamie Laing]

If someone's going to read one chapter from the book, which one would you tell them to pick?

[Dr. Julie]

Whatever they're going for at that moment. I think that's the idea of it, isn't it? That you. Whatever feels relevant to you, it just gives you that insight into what a psychologist might say or a few things to consider. And often it's about channeling the focus of your attention so that you know the way forward.

[Jamie Laing]

What have you learned about when writing the book yourself?

[Dr. Julie]

Well, do you know what? I had like a health scare through the summer where I was diagnosed with cancer. And at that point I was a couple of weeks away from handing in the book. And so I was reading through the chapters and kind of editing and stuff. And a couple of days after, I was so determined to get this book in and just get out the way so I could deal with this. This situation. And I was just happened to be reading through the chapter on fear and, and I'm in fear. I'm looking at thinking, well, no, this is, this is not what I need to hear right now. So I deleted the whole thing and, and wrote it for me. So. Yeah, and. And in that sense, I, I realized in that moment of just terrible fear for my life, I, I needed a really hard line. This is what you need to focus on. We have to get through this and we have to get our children through it and there's no messing around here. So the chapter on fear is actually probably a bit different to how other people might approach it. It's quite hard, light. You know, it was. It's stuff in there about, you know, not being the prey, being the predator.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow.

[Dr. Julie]

Step four. Get on your front foot. This is what you need to focus. Fear is here. And actually it's going to help you because you, you increase your level of alertness so that you're ready to bring your A game. And now you have to do it. So here we go. Here's what you focus on the next step. So it's quite, you know, the letter. And I did use it actually, and, and it helped me. So some, you know, some people need a more kind of genteel approach. But in that kind of situation, I knew I needed to just bring my A game and focus and do the things, you know, be in action, in forward motion in order to feel less like a rabbit. In headlights and more like I was taking control of the situation.

[Jamie Laing]

I hope you don't mind if I. Because it was. It's breast cancer, isn't it? How's the diagnosis now?

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah, I'm. I'm absolutely fine now. I'm out the other side, which is incredible.

[Jamie Laing]

Right.

[Dr. Julie]

Thank you. Yeah. And it's, you know, I'm super, super lucky that it was the earliest possible stage you could have found it. And, you know, I'm really lucky that I didn't have to do all the kind of radiation and stuff that makes you really poorly. So, you know, I'm, you know, I'm just Touchwood feeling super, super lucky and grateful. And it's weird because you have in. In that moment when. When you find out there is that natural inclination to go, why me? You know, I've always tried to be healthy and. And then at the other end, when you realize you're on the other side of it, it. You have another bit of a why me? Where Almost like a survivor guilt type thing, where you think, well, why did I have such an easy ride of it? I'm out the other side already. And there are people, you know, fighting for their lives back there. And so I think, whatever. And. And it's recognizing again that those experiences are natural, part of that process. Yeah. And interesting. When I did my. My thesis for my clinical training, it was in post traumatic growth in breast cancer patients.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow.

[Dr. Julie]

And, yeah, I got to interview lots of women who had been through it and how they had sort of felt like they gained from the experience and how they, you know, in terms of, you know, quite small things like, you know, health behaviors or spending more time with family or reevaluating certain things or those sorts of things. So I think I already had that in my mind that, you know, if we get through, then it's not. It doesn't have to be something that I have to pretend never happened and forget about and, you know, that I need to feel traumatized by. I can. I can treat this as, you know, just a part of the story that I'm gonna deal with and then learn from as well.

[Jamie Laing]

I love. That's how you embrace fear. It's so empowering.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

It reminded me of this and it's totally different. But there was this. My business partner, I went to this talk from this woman, amazing woman, who. She had a first day of her new job and she got on the tube, and the next thing, she wakes up in hospital and she's on the tube, that one of the bombs was on and she lost both of her legs and she woke up with having both her legs been amputated. And she gave this amazing speech and talk. Keynote speech about it all and spoke and at the end she said one of the questions was, do you not feel angry about what happened? She said, no, because that would make me a victim. And actually I'm embracing it. And I wouldn't be here in front of you right now talking about this.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And that's what I take from it. And it was such a moment of like, oh, my. The world is a really scary place and things happen and shit happens and we get sick and people die and we fall ill and we get depressed or whatever it is. We lose our jobs. But actually, you have to embrace that and you have to embrace that fear. And you go, no, I'm going to put one foot in front of the other and keep going.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah. And. And the thing is, you. There is that natural inclination to start down that route of, of the why me's? And stuff like that.

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[Dr. Julie]

But you have to draw a line. You have to stop it at some point because it doesn't help. It just. It makes things harder. And the last thing you want to do is live in bitterness and resentment. So you have to kind of turn it around and. Yeah, do what you can for yourself and access kind of gratitude for. You know, there's a. There's. There's good and bad in every situation. You can always look for the things you feel grateful for and you can look for the things that you hate about situation. Both of them are there to be accessed, but you got to choose what you do with it.

[Jamie Laing]

I want everyone to go and buy your book. I really do. We're gonna leave a link in the description because it's truly amazing and this is gonna help so many people, especially in, you know, 2025. And it's just, it's.

[Dr. Julie]

If not, it'll help me. The book I wrote for me that has helped me.

[Jamie Laing]

Judy, we have eight questions and I'm sure all of your energy has been zapped and I'm sorry.

[Dr. Julie]

Lovely to speak to you.

[Jamie Laing]

But we have eight questions that we like to end on. Are you ready?

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

What's a saying or phrase that you want people to come away from this interview with?

[Dr. Julie]

Probably the one about the sauna. So, you know, your inner world is like a sauna. So it can have benefits being there, but don't stay for too long. So if you're struggling, reach out to another human being and make connection. Because the best Thing for your nervous system is somebody else. It's quite a long phrase.

[Jamie Laing]

No, but that's great. I like that a lot. I love that, that you're, you're, you're like a sauna. It's amazing. Best compliment anyone's ever given you for your work.

[Dr. Julie]

Do you know, one of my biggest fears around giving everything away and being public was what other professionals would say and think. You think, oh, gosh, they're all going to, you know, judging me in the background. And so probably the, the biggest compliments that blow me away of when either people that I've known in the mental health work or medics and staff GPs, when they contact me and say I'm giving out your book or I'm, I'm directing people towards your book, I just think, yes, yes, let's see. You know, it's a real compliment when people who are, you know, have really high standards say that they're recommending it. I think, yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you still have that imposter syndrome?

[Dr. Julie]

Slightly, all the time. But I think it's a good sign that you're challenging yourself and you're living, you know, you're aiming up. So, yeah, embrace it.

[Jamie Laing]

What scares you most about your work.

[Dr. Julie]

From the very beginning that it all change was that it would come between me and the children and that it would have an impact on them. I think that was always and still is. I'm always, that's always my radar is what's the balance and how in. And I do, I work from home, so I, you know, still do the school run every day and I do the, you know, take them all to football and stuff in the afternoon and then Matt and I get in the office when the kids are in bed and start working again. So there is a price to pay, right? There's a payoff. And so in order to kind of be the mum and still do it, it means, you know, late nights and early mornings and stuff. But I'm, I'm willing to do that because I'm under no illusion. This all sounds great and fab and glam and stuff, but I'm under no illusions that the most important work I'll ever do is being a mum.

[Jamie Laing]

How tired are you? There we go.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah, a little bit.

[Jamie Laing]

When was the last time you cried and why?

[Dr. Julie]

God? Well, I'm a woman, so, you know, occasionally it happens just for no apparent reason. But probably the most significant time was when as I was coming out the other side of the cancer stuff. It's weird because you imagine there's like this really dramatic moment where you find out and then you just know everything and then there's a dramatic moment where you're all clear and, you know, ring the bell and stuff. And it wasn't really like that. I went to this appointment to kind of get, you know, results and stuff, and, and I thought that was going to be, like, the end point. And so I was almost kind of excited about it. And then what I got was a, you know, it's not me that decides whether you have, you know, chemo or radio. The oncologist will make a decision and then, you know, you come back in a couple of weeks and, and I'm just like, oh, no. I just really, you know, this disappointment was just huge of, this is not the end. This is carrying on and this is more. And I'm tired of it. And, and so I remember that kind of drive home was a bit like, oh, I really wanted the, you know, I wanted the big kind of moment. See you later. Yeah, bye. But didn't have it. So, yeah, that was probably the most significant time. But, you know, I got it now, so. That's right.

[Jamie Laing]

What's something you can't let go of?

[Dr. Julie]

What can I not let go of? I don't know if there's a good thing or a bad thing, but I think if someone sort of betrays me or shows that they're not trustworthy, I find that really hard to forget. You know, like, I feel trust is one of those things where it's like a big bucket of water that you can only fill from a dripping tap. But if someone knocks that over, takes so long to build it back up again, doesn't it? You know, knocked over in an instant and then, yeah, it kind of has to be earned back over time, so.

[Jamie Laing]

That's a great analogy.

[Dr. Julie]

Yeah. I sometimes feel like I'm a bit harsh on that side of things that, you know, should be able to just, like, let things go. But, yeah, I, I, maybe that's a good thing. I'm protecting myself and, but trust is everything important to me. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

What's your guilty pleasure?

[Dr. Julie]

I don't know. Chocolate sugar? Yeah. Yeah, it's great. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

What turns you off?

[Dr. Julie]

Probably the thing from before, the sort of dishonesty or someone. When you kind of get to see that someone's not really being themselves and they're kind of, there's a veneer there. And maybe because of the work I do as well, maybe I'm a bit more attuned to that. But, yeah, immediately, kind of, maybe it's again, the trust issue that there's just sort of a bit. Yeah, it's a good answer. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

What turns you on?

[Dr. Julie]

That kind of genuine someone being totally unapologetically themselves and not. Not pretend that everything's perfect or not pretending that they are, you know, anything that they're not.

[Jamie Laing]

What do you like most about yourself?

[Dr. Julie]

Oh, what a horrible question, Jamie.

[Jamie Laing]

It's the hardest one of the bunch.

[Dr. Julie]

Oh, God.

[Jamie Laing]

Come on. We could dig deep with this one.

[Dr. Julie]

Okay. Probably actually the, you know, the stuff I said about. I feel so strongly about my role as a parent and being present and doing a good job there. I feel like I've got that right. I feel like in a world where we're kind of, I think parenting and family life is being so devalued and all the value of it is not being recognized and then we're going, well, why is everyone growing up struggling? Yeah, I feel like I sort of not know something that no one that everyone else doesn't. But I, I see how important those early years are and I see how important family life and family connections are. So, yeah, probably that bonus.

[Jamie Laing]

Favorite swear word.

[Dr. Julie]

I can't say that here.

[Jamie Laing]

Is that your answer? Thank you so much. Amazing, amazing, amazing.

[Dr. Julie]

Lovely.

[Jemima]

Really moving at times.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, Just amazing in so many ways. I love that.

[Jemima]

Yeah, she is just wonderful.

[Jamie Laing]

She's amazing.

[Jemima]

I think I could listen to that over and over.

[Jamie Laing]

So what are your notes on it for you?

[Jemima]

Yeah, I'll have to have a think about it.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay.

[Jemima]

Fresh out the interview, you can have.

[Jamie Laing]

A think about it. Guys, thank you so much for listening. We really appreciate it. As always. Please just get in touch with us. We'd love to hear from you. @greatcompany podcast on Instagram, you can slide in and chat to us or you can send us an email. Greatcompanyampleproductions.co.uk Everything is in the show description. If you haven't subscribed to our YouTube channel as well, we have that. You can go and check it out and watch the whole show there, which would be amazing and to this show. Okay, Jamal, are you ready for next week?

[Jemima]

I am very ready. Also, just to know we're going to put all of Dr. Julie's books in the link in the bio as well.

[Jamie Laing]

So you can go and get them there. Okay, see you next week, guys.

[Dr. Julie]

Bye.

[Jamie Laing]

Bye.

[Jemima]

Bye.

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