DR ROBERT WALDINGER: This Is How You Make 2026 The Happiest Year of Your Life

Summary

---

Podcast Summary:

Great Company with Jamie Laing Episode: DR ROBERT WALDINGER: This Is How You Make 2026 The Happiest Year of Your Life
Release Date: January 7, 2026
Host: Jamie Laing
Guest: Dr. Robert Waldinger, Director of the Harvard Study of Adult Development

---

Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, Jamie Laing sits down with Dr. Robert Waldinger: psychiatrist, Zen priest, and director of the world’s longest longitudinal study on happiness. They unpack the science behind a fulfilled, happy life, drawing from the Harvard Study of Adult Development, reflections on modern society, and personal anecdotes. The overarching question: If we were to prioritize happiness starting today, what should we actually focus on? Dr. Waldinger shares surprising study findings, actionable advice for cultivating relationships and well-being, and debunks persistent misconceptions about what truly brings joy and meaning.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Harvard Study of Adult Development – Origins and Findings

• Study Background
  • Started in 1938 with 724 teenagers; now spans 87 years and 2,500+ people, including spouses and children.
  • Unique for focusing on what makes people thrive, not just what goes wrong.
  • “Most research on human beings is about what goes wrong so we can figure out how to fix it... This study in 1938 was radical because they said we want to know what helps people thrive.”
    — Dr. Waldinger [26:47]
• Main Results
  • Two main predictors of well-being: taking care of health, and warm, supportive relationships.
  • Social connection is the single biggest driver of happiness and health, more so than wealth or fame.
    • “People who were more socially connected stayed healthy longer and they lived longer.”
      — Dr. Waldinger [33:19]
  • Achievements and money matter much less to reported life satisfaction than relationships.

2. Debunking Myths About Happiness

• The Wealth Fallacy
  • Culture equates wealth with happiness, but research disproves this—it matters only up to basic needs.
  • "The culture gives us this message, oh, if you get really rich, then you're going to be happy. And it's not true."
    — Dr. Waldinger [34:33]
• Purpose & Engagement
  • Living a “good life” comes from engagement in meaningful activities and relationships.
  • “It's the activities you care about and the people you care about. And if you've got those, you've got a lot of what you need for happiness.”
    — Dr. Waldinger [06:08]

3. Relationships: The Core of Well-being

• Healthy vs. Unhealthy Relationships
  • Staying in “terrible” relationships is more harmful to health than leaving.
  • "There's research that showed that staying in a really terrible relationship is probably worse for you than going your separate ways."
    — Dr. Waldinger [08:46]
  • Reciprocity and curiosity are key; when either is lost, relationships become unsustainable.
  • “When we lose curiosity, that's something that's possible to cultivate again.”
    — Dr. Waldinger [14:46]
• Stress, Loneliness, and Health
  • Chronic stress damages both mind and body, increases inflammation, and hastens cognitive decline.
  • Loneliness is as dangerous as many health risk factors.
  • “It's a stressor the way that... we talked about how stress breaks down the body.”
    — Dr. Waldinger [19:13]
  • Even non-romantic toxic relationships (friends, family) can degrade health over time.

4. Practical Advice for Building Connection

• Curating & Making New Relationships
  • Curate relationships to avoid repeated harmful interactions; don’t be afraid to set boundaries.
  • Both old and new relationships matter; losing old friends makes it vital to foster new connections throughout life.
  • Joining groups, clubs, or volunteering, especially in repeated, shared activities, is empirically the best way to form new bonds.
  • “It's doing something you care about or you enjoy alongside the same other people again and again.”
    — Dr. Waldinger [17:38]
• For Socially Anxious or Isolated Individuals
  • Start with small, low-key interactions—shared activities that aren’t loud or overwhelming.
  • Try incrementally deepening casual relationships, for example, with a coworker.
  • “Begin to strike up a relationship… very slow steps, small steps.”
    — Dr. Waldinger [21:01]

5. Purpose and Self-Knowledge

• Finding Purpose
  • Pay attention to activities and interactions that energize or drain you, despite external pressures.
  • “We’re taught to squash those signals… I've had to do as a grownup is to just tune in again to pay more attention.”
    — Dr. Waldinger [06:52]

6. Modern Challenges: The Digital Age

• Disconnection & Social Media
  • The digital world can foster social comparison and a sense of missing out, undermining wellbeing.
  • “The problem with the scrolling, is that it leaves you feeling like you're missing out... you get the impression, oh, everybody else is having a great life except me.”
    — Dr. Waldinger [53:41]
  • We lack clear answers for managing digital distraction, but awareness and boundaries are essential.

7. Age, Temperament, and the Evolution of Happiness

• Happiness & Age
  • No fixed “unhappiest age,” but midlife is often the most stressful due to multiple demands.
  • Research surprisingly shows that people report greater happiness as they age (provided health remains).
  • “We get happier as we get older.”
    — Dr. Waldinger [40:05]
• Are We Born Happy/Unhappy?
  • Temperament is partly inherited—some are born “Tiggers,” others “Eeyores”—but about 40% of happiness is within our control.
  • “About 50% of our happiness is genetics... and about 40% is under our control.”
    — Dr. Waldinger [43:13]

8. Hedonia vs. Eudaimonia

• The Two Types of Happiness (Socrates, Zen, and Science)
  • Hedonic: Short-term pleasure (“am I having fun right now?”).
  • Eudaimonic: Lasting fulfillment and meaning.
  • “That’s eudaimonic happiness. And the other one’s hedonic... I prioritize meaning.”
    — Dr. Waldinger [49:55]
• Flow States and Contentment
  • “Flow” activities—whether in hobbies, sports, or work—can create deep well-being without constant chasing.
  • Not everyone needs to meditate, but everyone needs some path to quiet, absorption, or joy.

9. Values, Optimism, and Activism

• On Hope for the Future
  • Dr. Waldinger feels hopeful within his personal world and the people he influences, but worried about attacks on kindness, science, and truth in the broader society.
  • “Until I get up out of my chair and I go do something about it... The goal is to not cooperate with things that we see that are wrong.”
    — Dr. Waldinger [59:52]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Attention is the most basic form of love.”
  — Dr. Robert Waldinger [61:12]
• “The people who stayed the healthiest and lived the longest were the people who had more social relationships and warmer relationships.”
  — Dr. Robert Waldinger [33:19]
• “One of my Zen teachers gave me an assignment... ‘What am I seeing here that I've never noticed before?’”
  — Dr. Robert Waldinger [13:10]
• “Staying in a really terrible relationship is probably worse for you than going your separate ways.”
  — Dr. Robert Waldinger [08:46]
• “We get happier as we get older.”
  — Dr. Robert Waldinger [40:05]
• “There are so many ways to have a good life.”
  — Dr. Robert Waldinger [66:39]
• “Making money… once you get beyond [basic needs], making a lot of money doesn't make you happy.”
  — Dr. Robert Waldinger [34:33]
• “When we realize that other people are struggling too, it's a relief.”
  — Dr. Robert Waldinger [64:16]

---

Essential Timestamps

• [00:09]–[01:30]: Introduction to Dr. Waldinger and foundational happiness findings
• [04:21]–[05:27]: Early viral success of Dr. Waldinger’s TED talk and why it resonated
• [06:03]–[08:07]: Defining the “good life”; on purpose and fitting in
• [08:11]–[09:41]: Monogamy, relationships, and health outcomes
• [09:56]–[12:53]: Stress, health, inflammation, and the impact of relationships
• [13:05]–[14:46]: Unhealthy relationship traits; the importance of reciprocity and curiosity
• [16:42]–[18:20]: Making new relationships and advice for all ages
• [19:13]–[20:15]: The physical danger of loneliness and evolutionary roots
• [20:25]–[21:01]: Small steps to overcome loneliness and social anxiety
• [26:47]–[29:50]: History and methodology of the Harvard Study of Adult Development
• [33:19]–[36:56]: Surprising results: the health impact of social connections
• [40:05]–[41:03]: Happiness increasing with age
• [43:13]: How much of our happiness is under our control?
• [49:55]–[53:03]: Hedonia vs. eudaimonia, meaning, and flow activities
• [53:41]–[55:14]: Social media’s impact and digital distraction
• [58:34]–[60:05]: Optimism for the future and the need for activism
• [60:41]–[67:10]: Rapid-fire questions about fulfillment, fear, and the diversity of good lives

---

Actionable Takeaways

• Prioritize relationships over achievements or wealth for long-term happiness.
• Cultivate curiosity and reciprocity in all your relationships, romantic or otherwise.
• Protect your health—basic habits matter for both lifespan and happiness.
• Invest in new connections at every life stage; shared activities are the best pathway.
• Set boundaries with toxic relationships, even if they’re family.
• Recognize and accept your temperament—work within your bandwidth, but remember there's room to grow.
• Find flow states—whether, through hobbies, art, music, or meditation—to counteract the urge to chase constant stimulation.
• Be mindful of digital consumption and strive to live beyond curated, comparative lives.

---

Final Message

“Attention is the most basic form of love.”
— Dr. Robert Waldinger [61:12]

The secret to a happier 2026—and beyond—may be simple, but it’s far from easy: cherish your relationships, take care of your physical and emotional health, remain curious and present, and contribute to the well-being of others.

---

Transcript

[Jamie Lang]

Coming up in this episode of Great Company. Okay, if we started afresh tomorrow and made happiness our number one priority, what are the key things we should be focusing on?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

I mean, I'm going to give you the simplest answer. I would say it's, hi, I'm Bob Waldinger and I'm in great company. Dr. Robert Waldinger, director of the world's longest running study of happiness. I'm the fourth director of the longest study of human life that's ever been done. It started in the year 1938 with 724 teenagers. Now in our 87th year, we want to know what helps people thrive? What are the predictors of who's going to be happy and healthy as they go through their lives? That just hadn't been done.

[Jamie Lang]

What did the results show?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

In the end, they showed two big things. The culture gives us this message, oh, if you get really rich, then you're going to be happy. And it's not true.

[Jamie Lang]

Is loneliness dangerous for us? What is stress doing to the brain? Are we meant to be in relationships with one person? What makes a good life? What is it?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Oh, just. Just a little question. There's research that showed that staying in a really terrible relationship is literally worse for your health.

[Jamie Lang]

Depletes your health.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. We studied these people their whole lives. And when they got to be in their 80s, we asked them, looking back on your life, what are you proudest of? Nobody mentioned their accomplishments. Get out of here. Everybody. They talked about their relationships with people. They said, you know, I was a good partner. I was a good dad.

[Jamie Lang]

Why do you think that is.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

A.

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

I.

[Jamie Lang]

Had the time of my life. AI never felt this way before.

[Monday Sidekick Ad Voice]

From building timelines to assigning the right people and even spotting risks across dozens of projects like Monday Sidekick knows your business, thinks ahead and takes action. One click on the star and consider it done.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

And I owe it all to you.

[Monday Sidekick Ad Voice]

Try Monday Sidekick. AI you'll love to use on Monday.com.

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

Betterhelp online therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

Hi, it's Sarah Gibson Tuttle, the founder of Olive and June. Can I tell you the one thing that always makes my day better? A fresh manicure. But here's the thing. Who has the time or budget to go to the nail salon every week? That's why we created the Olive and June gel mani system. It gives you that same glossy long lasting mani you get at a salon for so much less. It comes with everything you need. A pro level LED lamp size, salon grade tools, our damage free gel polish that lasts up to 21 days. Just prep paint cure and you're good to go. And the best part, it's so easy and super affordable. So skip that $80 salon appointment. Get that salon quality look at home on your schedule. Head to oliveandjune.com DIYgel20 and use code DIYgel20 for 20% off your first gel mani system. This that's oliveanjune.com DIYgel20 code DIYgel20 for 20% OFF your first gel mani system.

[Dr. Horton Ad Voice]

Now is your time to get into a new Dr. Horton home by taking advantage of its national red tag sales event going on right now through January 25th. Stop by any of its participating communities and find select red tag homes at incredible pricing. So whether you're buying your first home or looking for an upgrade, you don't want to miss the red tag sales event going on right now. Discover the Dr. Horton Difference. Tap your screen now or visit Dr. Horton.com Dr. Horton America's Builder and equal housing opportunity builder.

[Jamie Lang]

Hello everyone, My name is Jamie Lang and this is great company. Your TED talk has 28 million views.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

51 million.

[Jamie Lang]

Sorry, my mistake. Who's counting over here?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Not really.

[Jamie Lang]

Who's counting?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

It's like I'm so embarrassed that I even know that number. Except when it passed 50 million, they got all excited. Wow.

[Jamie Lang]

Why do you think it's had so many views?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, so when I gave it, I thought I gave it at a little elementary school auditorium in suburban Boston. It was a TEDx talk. And I thought people were gonna laugh me off the stage because I was talking about something that I thought was so obvious and instead it went viral. Right. And I think it's because people are really concerned about growing social disconnection, how disconnected we are from everybody, how isolated we are. And I think that my kind of shining a light on it was something that got people's attention in a way that I didn't expect it to.

[Jamie Lang]

Why do you think you'd be laughed off the stage?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, because I thought it was so obvious. I mean, do you ever have things where you know them? So don't you think everybody also knows.

[Jamie Lang]

Them all the time? Yeah, yeah, I have that with my wife a lot.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Jamie Lang]

I think you know what I'm thinking. Exactly.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yes.

[Jamie Lang]

In your book, the Good Life, the first chapter in the book is what Makes a Good Life.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

So if I was going to ask you what makes a good life, what is it?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Oh, just a little question.

[Jamie Lang]

I have long locked the doors, everyone. Because I'm ready.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm going to give you the simplest answer. I would say it's being engaged in things you care about and being with people you care about. It's the activities you care about and the people you care about. And if you've got those, you've got a lot of what you need for happiness.

[Jamie Lang]

But that's talking also about purpose, right?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

But a lot of us struggle to find our purpose because we have to, you know, we have to go and find out what we want to do. And when I was a kid saying, what do you want to do? I said, well, I want to be a stuntman. Right. That's what I wanted to do. But I don't know how to become a stuntman. That's not. It's a dream. It's a pipe dream. So how do we find our purpose?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, I think one thing we can do is we can learn to pay attention to the signals we get about what energizes us, what lights us up and what drains us of energy. Because, you know, we spend so much time being told what we're supposed to want to do and what we're supposed to appreciate. Right. And think about all the time you sit in school and you have to suppress every little feeling because you have to sit still and behave and all that. So we're taught to kind of squash those signals we're getting all the time about what we like and what we want to do and what we don't want to do. And so I think a lot of what I've had to do as a grownup is to just tune in again to pay more attention. Oh, I really don't like doing that. And everybody else thinks it's great, and I don't like doing it, so I have to turn away from it.

[Jamie Lang]

Wow.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

I don't know if you've had anything like that, where people have told you, you should really like this thing. You should really do this thing, and you don't like it. Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And I've had that a lot, I think.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And you always do it because you do it because it makes you fit in.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, it makes you fit in. And you say, well, everybody else thinks it's great. It must be great.

[Jamie Lang]

Are we meant to be in relationships with one person?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

I'm not going to go there. I mean.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay, come on, Robert, give it to me.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, okay, so my wife and I are going to celebrate our 40th anniversary in May.

[Jamie Lang]

Congratulations.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

And, yeah, but. And that's been a really good thing for me. I know that people, you know, there are a lot of people who believe that monogamy is, is, you know, is outdated. Right. I think monogamy has worked for a variety of reasons throughout history.

[Jamie Lang]

For what reasons? Because.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, because you can build from monogamy if you're both committed. So, like, let's say you're going through hard times, but you're sure you're going to stay through the hard time. Then you can build a family. Right. And think about the people who have to raise kids on their own or even two separated people who are raising their kids separately in essence. First of all, it's economically, often very disastrous to the family and it's much harder. So if you can be in a relationship where you can build things, then there's more. You can, you can achieve more of the goals that you want to achieve as a family. On the other hand, to stay in a relationship that's absolutely miserable and acrimonious. There's research that showed that staying in a really terrible relationship is probably worse for you than going your separate ways.

[Jamie Lang]

And when we say worse for you, what does that mean?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, actually, literally worse for your health and certainly for your happiness. But that's your health. Yeah. Oh yeah. Because one of the things, you know.

[Jamie Lang]

Isn'T that mad it depletes your health.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

Oh, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Happiness be your health.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

So it's stress, right. What we find. Why do relationships improve our good relationships improve our health? We think a lot of it has to do with there being stress reducers. There being what we call in my world, emotion regulators. So if you think about it, something really frustrating or angering happens to you today, hopefully you go home and you can talk about it. Right. And often when we talk about it, you can literally feel your body start to calm down 100%. Yeah. From the fight or flight response. What we think happens is that people who are isolated or don't have anyone they can really trust to talk to, that they stay in a kind of low level fight or flight response. So chronic inflammation, poor immune functioning, you know, all of these things that the fight or flight response is meant to change in our bodies, but then we're meant to Go back to baseline when the threat is gone or the frustration is gone. And if we can't do that, then we think that gradually the body breaks down.

[Jamie Lang]

That is mad that it actually. What it does is it really. If you. So in these relationships or leading these lives, which are incredibly stressful, can actually lead to illnesses.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Can they cause cancers?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

We don't know. I mean, there's some ideas that they can. There's some studies that suggest that stress is implicated in cancer. They haven't. I can't say that they've really made definitive links, but there's a lot of sense that higher stress means. For example, there's a study I just read that showed that if you're having financial problems and you're undergoing treatment for cancer, your survival rate is lower than if you're not having financial problems. Now, I'm not sure about this study. I have to read it further, but that's the idea of a stressor. Right. And how a stressor might make your body less able to fight off illness. And we do know that some of that is true.

[Jamie Lang]

What is stress doing to the brain?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, it's. Yeah, it's not good for your brain that stress sets up chronic inflammation and chronic inflammation makes the brain deteriorate sooner. So what we know. So, for example, we're trying to figure out how do you stave off dementia.

[Jamie Lang]

Correct. Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

And cognitive decline. And we don't know nearly enough enough about that yet. But one of the things that does seem true is that chronic inflammation, besides breaking down other body systems, gets to your brain and may contribute to cognitive decline, even Alzheimer's, although they're not sure about that.

[Jamie Lang]

What are. I mean, it seems like an easy question, but what are unhealthy traits in a relationship? And what are things that we should look out for that maybe we don't realize or don't know?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

So unhealthy traits.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, unhealthy traits.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

I think when it's not very reciprocal, when one person is doing much more of the giving and one person is doing much more of the taking, one person does much more of the listening and doing the emotional care, like women have been begun to talk about. I don't want to be the emotional caretaker of my partner exclusively. And men just, you know, granted, these are gender stereotypes. Sometimes it's very much the opposite. But if it's. If it's lopsided. Right. If one person feels they're giving way more, then eventually it becomes so wearing that it's not sustainable. I think the other thing Is that if people stop being curious about each other, you know, because one of the things that happens, you know, you're with somebody and you just feel like, you know what they're going to say, you know, you know, and, and actually one of my Zen teachers gave me an assignment once. He said, you know, go have dinner with Jennifer, my wife. And he said, your, your task is to ask yourself, what am I seeing here that I've never noticed before? And this was when Jennifer and I had been together for 20 years and, and it was such an interesting assignment because I had to like really look. And I realized, okay, actually she's kind of changed her hair and I never noticed that. And you know, and then, and she and I just started being much more curious about. We were just having an ordinary dinner table conversation.

[Jamie Lang]

Right.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

So I think when we lose curiosity, that's something that's possible to cultivate again. Right. With somebody who we take for granted.

[Jamie Lang]

But it's so important to stay curious in life.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

We kind of got to stay curious the whole time. That's what drives us forward.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, some people know, some people like predictability a lot. You know, they don't want any change. You seem to be a person who likes.

[Jamie Lang]

I love it.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

I don't know what. I don't. Not knowing what's going to happen tomorrow is like the most exciting thing for me.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah. And for some people that's the most terrifying thing. Right.

[Jamie Lang]

So what about non romantic relationships that are unhealthy? Can that cause your brain, your body to also deplete? If you're friends with toxic people or your family can be toxic?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yes, absolutely. I think a lot of it is the balance. Like if you have a couple of toxic friends and you don't see them very often, probably not too bad. Right. But if you are surrounded by people who make you really agitated, upset, unhappy, that could be family, could be friends. If that's what you're swimming in, then that's the recipe for breaking down your health.

[Jamie Lang]

But then how do you change it?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, you can step away, but that's so hard. Well, you can curate the relationship. I mean, I know, for example, that if I talk politics with certain people in my family now, especially now, it's going to go really badly. And so I structure my contact with them so that we're not likely to talk politics. We don't do that and that. So I, so I, it's not that I want to cut off the relationships, I don't, but I want to put guardrails around the things that get us into trouble.

[Jamie Lang]

What about making new relationships? Because could we go throughout our lives making new relationships, or is it that having those old relationships are more important than new ones?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

No, they're both, they're both important because first of all, we're going to lose our old relationships eventually. Well, people die. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And people move away. I mean, I've lost, you know, my dearest friend in the world, died of dementia 10 years ago, and it was just heartbreaking. And you know, it's like, now what? So we do need to keep those skills up of making new relationships. And, and what you see is people doing it at all stages of life, including when they get to be very old. And there are ways to do it. Right. You know, they've actually, sociologists have studied what the easiest ways are to make new relationships.

[Jamie Lang]

Which are what?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, it's, it's doing something you care about or you enjoy alongside the same other people again and again. So, for example, like you join a club. Like, what do we tell our, our kids when they go to a new school? We say, join a club. Right. So you find something you like to do and it's not necessarily even for the thing they're doing. It's so that you meet other kids in a place where you have something in common and we can do the same. Volunteer for political activities, volunteer to help prevent climate change, join a football club. I don't know. But if you go back again and again and you see the same people, you're more likely to strike up some conversations.

[Jamie Lang]

Do you know, the more I talk to people like yourselves who are sort of, who've studied throughout their lives, the more I realized that what our parents tried to teach us as kids was what we should be doing and reflecting ourselves as adults.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Eating healthy, get off screens, go to clubs, play, go on adventures. You know, do all of those things do. That's what we tell our kids to do, but we don't put it in ourselves.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Isn't that mad? It's like we had it right when we were 2, 3, 4, 5.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Right. And there's a reason why these things become, you know, wisdom that's handed down even though we as the children don't want to, don't want to listen. There's a reason why they keep saying it, right? Because they've been tried and true methods of being happy and staying well.

[Jamie Lang]

Is loneliness dangerous for us?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, yeah. It breaks down our health. It's a stressor the way that, you know, we talked about how stress breaks down the body. They've done all these studies of people being alone versus being with other people. They know, for example, that if you are alone in your house or your apartment, you sleep less soundly than if you're with other people. And we think it's evolutionary. We think that we evolved to be social creatures because it's safer to be in, you know, to be in numbers. Right. Like if, if the goal of evolution is to pass on your genes, then it's probably, you're probably more likely to pass on your genes if you huddle together in groups to ward off what's coming at you. Right. And so we think probably that the people who were most more social were the ones who essentially survived and that that's how we evolved to be more social creatures.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay. So if someone is struggling, they feel lonely, and they're listening to this right now. But the idea of going to a club is terrifying. Is there a mini step they can take?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Absolutely. Absolutely right. Because clubs are terrifying to me. I mean, they are to me. You know, it's really hard, like I, it's really hard for me to walk into a cocktail party really not knowing anybody. I just don't like it. I mean, I'll end up talking with people and it'll be okay, but I just so. And some people love it. I bet you like it.

[Jamie Lang]

I quite like it.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

I bet you're good.

[Jamie Lang]

I am. Okay. I quite like it.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah. It's just different temperament, right?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. But I don't like other things that other people like. How can you not like that?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, right.

[Jamie Lang]

That's why we're all different.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Exactly, exactly. So wait, now I lost the question.

[Jamie Lang]

So what is the mini step? Someone can take many steps.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah. So again, like one of the things would be to, to join an activity where you could do it alongside other people. You know, let's say, let's say there is something you really love to do. It doesn't have to be a raucous activity. It could be a quiet activity, it could be knitting. But you know, you just, you, you find people to interact with in a low key way where you have something in common and an interest. And so that's one way. Another thing is to see if you can sort of slowly develop a more trusting relationship with somebody who's a casual person in your life. Sometimes that can happen at work. You know, often only 30% of workers say they have a friend at work. When they do these huge surveys all over the world, only 3 in 10 say they have a friend and most don't. Right. But you can, there are ways to begin to see who could I explore a little bit of personal contact with, who could I start chatting with about something they have displayed on their desk? Or who could I have lunch with once in a while and begin to strike up a relationship. So even if you're temperamentally a quieter person, you could see if there might be one or two people you could try to get to know a little better through very slow steps, small steps.

[Jamie Lang]

But it's also exposure, right? Yeah, that's the hardest thing because what's, you know, with the heroin addict, right. It's much easier to keep taking the heroin than to stop doing it. Because it's easy. Right. That's why you keep taking, because it feeds you, it makes you feel better with people who are in those situations. Much easier to sit at home alone, not connecting, not doing that. But that's counterproductive to your health, to your well being, to everything. And taking that first step is the hardest part to actually go and do that, to speak to someone, to connect, say, hey, let's go for a coffee.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Absolutely.

[Jamie Lang]

That is the hardest part, right?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay, if we started afresh tomorrow and made happiness our number one priority, what are the key things we should be focusing on?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, I would say, you know, and it's not just me saying it, it's the research that shows that social connection is the biggest driver of well being, of happiness. Right. And it also buffers us against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune when bad things come along. Social relationships help us help ease that pain. So I would say if you're going to make only one investment, invest in friendships, in family relationships.

[Jamie Lang]

It's the easiest answer.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah.

[Monday Sidekick Ad Voice]

I'm done with subscriptions. Streaming, fitness, razors, vitamins. I've got subscriptions for everything in my life. They lock you in and half the time I can't figure out how to unsubscribe. That's why I'm so excited about the new Blue Apron. Now you can get delicious meals delivered with no subscription needed, including new pre made options. Keep the flavor, ditch the subscription. Get 20% off your first two orders with code APRON20 Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com terms for more BetterHelp Online.

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now just, just relax.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

Hi, it's Sarah. I'm the founder of Olive and June. And can I tell you the one thing that always makes my day better? A fresh manicure. But who has the time or the money to go to the salon every week? That's why we created the Olive and June gel mani system. It gives you that same mani that you get at a salon for so much less. It comes with everything you need. A pro level lamp, salon grade tools, our damage free gel polish that lasts up to 21 days. All you do is prep, paint, cure and you're good to go. And the best part, it's super easy and so affordable. Each mani breaks down to $2. So let's skip that $80 salon appointment and get the salon quality look at home for so much less. And on your schedule, head to OliveAndJune.com DIYgel20 and use code DIYgel20 for 20% off your first Gel Mani system. That's OliveAnJune.com DIYgel20 code DIYgel20 for 20% OFF Gel Mani system.

[Jamie Lang]

Happiness is one of those things I think we're all striving for, really. You know, if a genie came to you and said what would you want your wish to be probably would say, well, I want to be happy or I want to be content. Yeah, you know, something around those. And I'm being a huge fan of yours for a long time. I recently just wrote a book called Boys Don't Cry and in it I really. Yeah, in it I cite you. I write about the test that you did before I even knew you were going to come on the show. So for anyone who is listening and doesn't know your work or who you are, could you describe to them who you are and what you best known for?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Okay. I'm the fourth director of the longest study of human life that's ever been done. As far as we know that it started in the year 1938 with 724 teenagers and has followed them and their spouses and their kids. Now in our 87th year. And the purpose of the study? You know, most research on human beings is about what goes wrong so we can figure out how to fix it. Right. And this study in 1938 was radical because they said we want to know what helps people thrive. What are the predictors of who's going to be happy and healthy as they go through their lives. That Just hadn't been done. So that's what we've done for 87 years.

[Jamie Lang]

It started in 1938.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

What was happening around then for people to start considering happiness?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, we had finished the Great War, which we thought was the war to end all Wars, World War I. And it wasn't going to be right in the U.S. we were in the midst of a Great Depression, a terrible depression. And I think people were getting more pessimistic about this kind of ever expanding vision of life and the economy and all that. And so they began to want to know what actually turns out to be important in human beings having good lives. The research was measuring, like, all kinds of things as people went through life. So we got their medical records, we asked them about how they thought about work and relationships and family and all that.

[Jamie Lang]

And it was 728 people, right?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

724. And then we expanded to spouses, and then we expanded to children, all of whom now are mostly baby boomers. So now it's about 2,500 people. And we've known their whole families. And we actually went back and talked to the original people, guys, parents and grandparents. And we have these wonderful notes about, like, what was being served for dinner in these homes in 1938. I mean, it's just amazing. And so. So what we did was we followed these people all the way through their lives with interviews and questionnaires and medical records. And then eventually, as new methods came along, like we started drawing blood for DNA and messenger rna, which is so cool to me, because DNA wasn't even imagined in 1938. And we started putting people on the MRI scanner and watching how their brains lit up differently when we showed them different kinds of pictures. We bring them into our lab and we deliberately stress them out. And then we watch how they recover from stress as a way. All these are ways of trying to get at this big amorphous thing we're calling wellbeing.

[Jamie Lang]

And what was interesting about the 724 different people out of it, John F. Kennedy, which is insane, the President of the United States.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

He wasn't then.

[Jamie Lang]

He wasn't then, but he was in the test. You've had alcoholics, you've had people with schizophrenia, you've had businessmen. It was just a whole wide range of different people.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, we had a serial murderer. We just discovered that recently.

[Jamie Lang]

Get out of here.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah. In the inner city group, we had a serial murderer. I know, but most people weren't infamous or famous or anything. They were just people living their Lives.

[Jamie Lang]

And it was every sort of two to four years. You just check in and you would do everything. Check with family, friends, check their finances, check their job. And typically with a social experiment like this, it kind of dies out, doesn't it? Funding stops, people get bored. People, you know, change country, they're not part of it. But this one just kept on going and going and going.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, yeah. And you know, nothing has continued this long. This is unheard of. Too many people usually drop out even after five years of a longitudinal study. And then it becomes, it's no longer valuable because we don't know what happens to the people who drop out. So in our study, out of all these like 2,500 plus people, we've had a 22% dropout rate over 87 years, which is tiny compared to what you would expect. And part of the way it happened is we created a sense of community. Actually what we did was we had one person. Usually it was a woman, a very maternal woman who was like the study secretary and she was like mission control. So the people in our study became attached to her. Her name was Louise Gregory. And she would write them thank you notes when they would return a questionnaire, she would send them birthday cards, condolence cards, and they would write to her about their lives because.

[Jamie Lang]

So they would feel connected. So in order. So then they would feel. Be able to share. Yeah, because it wasn't just. It didn't feel robotic.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

No, it didn't feel robotic. Now what it means is we were not your typical hands off study. Right. You're supposed to not have anything to do with your study members because you don't want to influence them. We weren't that way because people weren't thinking that way in 1938. And also what we realized was that this is how you keep people engaged in a study. You help them feel like they're part of a community and you help them feel like they're giving a gift to science. So we kept telling them. We kept telling them about what we were doing and what we were finding. We sent them newsletters, all that stuff.

[Jamie Lang]

What did the results show in the end?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, they showed two big things. One is if you take care of your health, it really matters for longevity and for staying well. So, I mean, it sounds trivial, but literally, if you exercise regularly, if you eat well, if you don't become obese, if you don't abuse alcohol or drugs, if you get preventive health care, if you do all those things, you can live easily 10 years longer than you would Have. Because we were able to compare the people who didn't take care of their health with the people who did. And that wasn't such a surprise because other studies had begun to find that as well. Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And that makes sense.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

It makes total sense.

[Jamie Lang]

That makes sense. I get that. Right.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Lot of sense. What didn't make sense to us at first was when we found that the people who stayed the healthiest and lived the longest were the people who had more social relationships and warmer relationships. People who were more socially connected stayed healthy longer and they lived longer. And the thing is, we didn't believe it because how could the quality of your relationships get into your body and make it more or less likely that you'll get heart disease?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Or diabetes. Right. Or arthritis. How could that be a thing? So we've been unpacking that in our lab. We've been trying to understand how it works.

[Jamie Lang]

Try not to unpack that for me, because that, in my head, it's. It doesn't make as much sense either. What you're saying is. So what you're saying is, is that the people who had better connections with family and friends, the ones who lived a better, healthier, fuller, happier life.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yep.

[Jamie Lang]

But that's not what we're all driving towards, really, in life. It feels like what we're striving towards is finding a purpose, being part of a business, making money, all these things.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, yeah. Well, the. Making money. I mean, obviously we need to make money to get our basic needs met and. And nobody's happy if they don't have those needs met, you know, for housing and food and. And educate their children, all that. But once you get beyond that, making a lot of money doesn't make you happy. And we all know there are people who are miserable, who are really wealthy, that, that it's not the same. Some wealthy people are quite happy and some are quite unhappy. But the culture gives us this message, oh, if you, if you get really rich, then you're going to be happy. Right. You see this in films, in. On. On the Internet. You see it everywhere, this, this subliminal message, and it's not true.

[Jamie Lang]

So being physically healthier and being more connected with people makes us live these fuller lives. But then we. I suppose at the moment we have this problem with disconnection.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yes.

[Jamie Lang]

Because we're all staring at our phones the whole time. We're all FaceTiming rather than meeting up, we're scrolling and liking social media rather than liking ourselves.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Right.

[Jamie Lang]

And that is causing a huge disconnection. But if we have the study and we know that what causes and creates happiness is bringing people together because we're meant to be tri, like sort of live in a tribe, why are we doing the opposite?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

It's such a good question. It's such a good question. So, I mean, I think one of the things that's, that's true about money, for example, and fame. A lot of people go for fame, money, awards.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Is that there are things you can point to. Like what? They're, they're like badges of achievement. Like, I have, you know, I have this, this amount of wealth, or I have this many followers. I'm an Internet influencer. Right.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, Right.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

You can point to that. You can say, this is what I've achieved. Right. How do you do that with relationships? You don't. And it's kind of amorphous. It's like you don't, I mean, you more quietly would pride yourself, oh, I have some good friends. Right. I have a good partner. I have good relationships with my kids. But you don't really shout that from the rooftops. You don't put it on your resume when you're applying for a job. Right. It's not a badge of achievement, so.

[Jamie Lang]

It'S not a badge of achievement. So that's not what we're striving to get, these badge of achievements to almost be validated.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah. I mean, actually, one of my Zen colleagues who's a Zen teacher says that in fact, all this striving for badges of achievement is really trying to make ourselves feel more. More real when the idea of a separate, independent self is just a fiction.

[Jamie Lang]

Because I think if I'm being honest about myself, I think I probably fall into that trap. Right.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, me too.

[Jamie Lang]

You know, it's. I, I, I, you know, I like LinkedIn because I can post stuff about what I've achieved.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, right, exactly.

[Jamie Lang]

And I don't know who that's really for, apart from myself.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Exactly.

[Jamie Lang]

Which is kind of a narcissistic, weird trait.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

But we all do it. And I think one argument is it's because deep down we're all kind of afraid that there isn't much to us. And I don't mean that we're bad or we're inadequate. It means that, like, we're not quite real. Because this is a Zen thing now. But Zen teaches that there's no such thing as a separate, isolated self that that's unchanging and goes through time.

[Jamie Lang]

Explain that more to me.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Okay. The idea is that we are completely interconnected. I mean everything from, you know, you have more bacteria cells in your body than you have your own body cells. You are constantly exchanging air with the environment, you are constantly receiving signals from other people, and, you know, having emotional resonance with other human beings all day long. You are constantly being influenced by and shaped by everything around you. And as opposed to this fantasy of a me that's separate and goes through time, and I'm the same me who I was 20 years ago, I'm not the same me who I was when we started this conversation. So. But the idea, one idea, and this is just a theory, is that that scares us in some deep way. And so. But if you say, well, I've got this many followers, I've got this many views on my TED Talk, that must mean I'm a real person.

[Jamie Lang]

With your study, where did you see kind of as the unhappiest part of people's lives? What age?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

There was no particular age. I do think that typically when we are the sandwich generation, and the sandwich generation is where you've got kids you're taking care of, you may have older parents who you're taking care of, you have a lot of demands on you, you've demanding job. If you're in that midlife place often, that's a time of enormous stress. So I would say that that's one common refrain we hear from people in midlife. I've just got so much that I have to take care of and attend to right now, and I can't manage it all. But, you know, hard times can come at any time. I will say that we get happier as we get older. Do you know about this?

[Jamie Lang]

No. But that makes. Fills me with just happiness because I'm. I'm 37.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

I find this part of my life. I'm about to have my first kid. Ah, yeah.

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

Wow.

[Jamie Lang]

And so this part. And by the time this comes out, I would have had my first kid. Right.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

When, When's the baby due?

[Jamie Lang]

Soon. Like, three weeks.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. Yeah. It's literally about to. About to arrive. But I find that this part of my life, being at 37 is. Is not the unhappiest at all in any way. I'm very. I am. I feel very happy.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

But it's hard.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, it's hard.

[Jamie Lang]

It's hard because you have responsibilities and especially when you've got even more responsibilities.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

And you have diapers to change.

[Jamie Lang]

You have diapers to change and stresses and. And you also don't feel. I don't feel as agile as I did before. And so this is probably that sort of thing, what we're talking about here, which is this period of life is tricky. It feels like.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, it's trickier. Yeah. And one of the reasons why we get happier as we get older, if we still have our health, is that the pressures ease. If we have kids who are grown and launched, you know, we're no longer taking care of aging parents, perhaps that we no longer have so much pressure in our jobs. Maybe we're retired, or we have more control over our work life because we're more senior in our jobs, that those things then ease that pressure. And we have. We can take care of ourselves a lot more easily.

[Jamie Lang]

Can we be born unhappy, or are we born everyone the same in a way, and life changes us?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

It's the former. We can be born unhappy or really, more technically, we all have certain inborn temperaments. What? Yeah. I mean, did you read Winnie the Pooh?

[Jamie Lang]

Yes. Loved it.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

There's Eeyore and there's Tigger.

[Jamie Lang]

Yes.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

And some people are born Eeyores. They're always kind of, you know, down about things, even when they're good, and then they're Tiggers who are just bouncy all the time, even when the worst is happening. And we think that has to do with biological factors. There's inborn temperament. And we're all kind of on a continuum that we don't understand that. Well, a great deal of it's genetically determined. But then, of course, there's so much environmental determination of happiness and of just mood in general. So you can take the happiest person and traumatize them and make them depressed and withdrawn. You can take someone who's very withdrawn and unhappy and move the needle some toward greater happiness. So it's always a mix of biology and. And the environment.

[Jamie Lang]

So can you change from being an eel if you are an eel?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

That's a great question. I don't know. I don't know. Well, there's a psychologist, Sonia Lyubomirsky, who did a big analysis of how much of our happiness is under our control. And she took a lot of studies, and her estimate is that about 50% of our happiness is genetics. It's genetically based, and about 10% is based on our current life circumstances. If I'm having a bad time right now in my life, but only 10%, there's no way. Yeah. And about 40% is under our control. We can move the needle by things we do and don't do, which could either sound like a Lot or a little, but to me it sounds like a lot.

[Jamie Lang]

So if we are feeling. If we have control over the way that we're feeling some way. Because that 10%. Right, yeah, sure, fine, I get it. But, you know, I've definitely had moments in my life where I have felt anxious or down or low mood or whatever it is. And I sort of think, well, it's life, it's this, it's that. Perhaps it's my own way of looking at things.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, it probably does have to do with your way of looking at things, but it's also, I think that that kind of inborn low mood would be something that that's there all the time. So in other words, I think of mood as kind of ups and downs. Most of us have ups and downs of mood. I think everybody does. Sure. Yeah. But that some of us have started a different baseline at a lower baseline where I. When I'm down, I'm really down, and then I go up, but I never get that happy and then I go back down really far. Other people, it's the reverse. They never get too far down, even on their worst days. Right.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

So again, it's this, it's. It's both.

[Jamie Lang]

But I. If I look at me, right, for example, I. I'm a big lover of life, Right. I love it more than anything. And I have a high energy. Always have as a kid, you know, high energy, always that way. And so whenever I then started saying, whenever I did feel any dips, I hate, I'm scared of it because I hate that feeling of feeling anything that's not up here.

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yes.

[Jamie Lang]

And so I became fearful of feeling anxious or fearful of feeling down because I didn't want that feeling because that's not my natural state. I don't like it.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And so then when you get stuck in that state, it's hard to get yourself out of it because you're like, oh, I'm going to be like this forever.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the things that, you know, we can teach kids is about that we can teach kids not to be afraid that sadness is okay and it's not going to last. Right. That's a big message. Because kids don't know that. Especially when you're in the midst of a sad time or really angry time, it feels like forever. And so to be able to teach kids about what feelings are like and how they work, it's actually, you know, that's why I'm in London now for the Royal foundation for this thing they have A Shaping Us initiative. They're trying to call attention to the fact that we can teach the kind of thing you just talked about. We can teach kids not to be afraid of feelings and to use their feelings rather than let their feelings, you know, run away with them. But.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay, but let me discuss this. You know, when I. When I was younger, right, I got sent to boarding school. Eight years old, okay? And I remember lying.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Guys do that.

[Jamie Lang]

And it was crazy. I know it's mad. I don't get it either. I don't get it. But I went eight years old, I remember lying in bed and I got a lump in my throat, right? Because I was lying in bed in this new dormitory full of 12 different people, and I was scared I was pregnant. And if someone had said to me then, oh, by the way, that's anxiety, I would have then become experienced that. I would have known what that is. But I didn't tell anyone, didn't understand it. So next day, when the lump had gone, I forgot about it.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

I didn't think about it. Right?

[Jamie Lang]

And there's something about being naive, right? We now, we label things emotions, right? That's anxiety, that's ocd. That's depression, that's insomnia. And when you label something, in my experience, it becomes scarier. It becomes something. You become experienced in it, right? And there's something about that naivety that makes us still be free.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

That's interesting, you know, because I know it does work that way for. For some people at some times. For other people, it works in the reverse that some people say you're struggling with OCD and you have these behaviors. You don't know why you have to keep checking whether the door is locked, locked or the stove is turned off. And it's driving you crazy, and it's driving everybody around you crazy. And then someone finally says, here's what it is, and here's. And you can see the relief that somebody gets when you say, oh, this is a thing. It's called ocd. And we know what it is. We know what to do about it. And it's so organizing because otherwise you're just left with that feeling of, I am crazy. I'm. And I don't know what to do. Right.

[Jamie Lang]

That makes total sense. Do you get fulfilled from helping others? Because if we go back to, you know, there's this. And you spoke about if you go back to Socrates, right?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Socrates talks about two levels of happiness.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yes.

[Jamie Lang]

He talks about the lower level, right? Which is, you know, this far better than me. But the lower level, which is, you know, fame and wealth and power and all the things that we think we.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Want to achieve, and eating great sweets.

[Jamie Lang]

And eating delicious sweets, really. But the higher level is helping people. Yeah, you talk about Socrates, which is, you know, just a completely different time, but they sort of had it right. They understood what created this happiness, what created a fulfilled life. And somehow along the way, we've lost it.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, well, you know, the research on happiness talks about the two kinds of happiness you mentioned. One is the am I having fun right now? Happiness. And then the other is, is life basically good even when I'm having a bad day? Is life basically good? That's eudaimonic happiness. And the other one's hedonic. And really, I think what the research finds is we all want some of both. Like, you know, I love good sweets. Like, I'm really looking forward to your giving me some sweets, but that wouldn't be enough for me. Like, I'm really gonna. I really prioritize. So, for example, it matters to me that you and I are having this conversation and these ideas are going to get heard by some people because it feels meaningful to me that I can share some of this stuff that I know that might be helpful to people. So that's the kind of eudaimonic happiness. That's the life is meaningful happiness. And there are so many ways to find meaning in life. Life.

[Jamie Lang]

Do you think we. Do you think we're focusing too much more on short term happiness rather than long term happiness?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

I think it depends on who you are. Some people are very much party animals and that's what they want to focus on.

[Jamie Lang]

But that's not true. Deep happiness. That's more a dopamine hit, right?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, I don't know. For some people, that's all they really care about. And who's to say? I mean, it might be in the eye of the beholder. For me, it wouldn't be deep happiness, but.

[Jamie Lang]

But I can argue it, right? Because I. Because how could that be if you're. So. If you. If all your happiness, right. Is based around parties or that sort of hedonistic style, right? Like, so going out, partying and dating, whatever it may be, surely like with anything, you're gonna keep needing more of it, more of it, more of it, more of it to become content.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

So actually then you're. You're constantly chasing whatever this is, and you think you're happy, but are you truly happy?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

It's, you know, it's the, the eye of the Beholder. I think, you know, you're right. People get on a kind of treadmill where they're chasing after more and more hits of well being, of.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

You know, and, and it is sad. I mean, Zen teaches a lot about that. All the meditative practices talk about sitting still. So you watch like the urges for, you know, some hit, some fix of something. You watch the urges come up and you watch them pass away. Right. And that a lot of meditative practice is helping you not be kind of corralled by your impulses, but giving you more choice at how to respond to them. And that means you're probably less likely to keep chasing, you know, the great parties. Doesn't mean you don't still like parties, but it may mean that you don't have to have that as much as you used to.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay, Robert, if someone's listening right now, right. And they are really struggling with being quiet and still and they're chasing and they don't want to stop, but. And they can't find that quietness, what do you say to them?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah. Well, I would say, first of all, not everybody should meditate. Like, maybe most people shouldn't. Like, my wife has no interest in meditation. She loves that I meditate. She makes me a much better listener. Right. But she's no interest. But she's a passionate pianist, so she sits and gets lost playing the piano. And time just drifts by. Right. And I think that, you know, they write about these states that they call flow, where it's where you're so absorbed in something, you could be this in sport, you could be it in gardening, you could be it in anything. But where you're just kind of lost in an activity and that time just kind of. You don't even. You're not aware of time and you're just in it. And I think that that flow state we can find in many different ways and that, that has the opportunity to help us see the difference between, oh, there's this way of being and then there's the constant chasing of the next fix.

[Jamie Lang]

But that's hard if you have a hobby like that. If you, if you're, if you love, you know, reading or looking at art or playing music or whatever it may be, that's kind of. You can get yourself into a state where you can feel calm. But I worry about, you know, especially if I look at my younger brother, 21 years old. Right.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

It feels like to me, a lot of their excitement and their kind of flow state is scrolling TikTok.

[Dr. Horton Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And and that is a sort of distraction in a way. And you can be distracted. You know, we've, as a sort of, as humans, we've become distracted, but not in a good way, I don't think.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, the distraction of the digital world is a big problem. And, and you know, the, the dangers. We can say, okay, the digital world is bad. And first of all, that's weird. Where's that going to lead us? The digital devices we're so addicted to aren't going anywhere. So the digital world is here. But I think what we're not learning to do is figure out how to use it in a way that helps us and how to use it in a way that depletes us. And the problem with the scrolling, particularly scrolling other people's feeds about their lives, is that it leaves you feeling like you're missing out. I mean, we post these kind of curated lives for each other. I don't post the photos in the mornings when I'm hungover or feeling depressed. I post the photos when I'm on a vacation at a beautiful place. But what it can do is it can give you the impression, oh, everybody else is having a great life except me. I'm having a life with ups and downs. And, you know, and so I think that that problem of the digital world is one that we really need to get on top of. Like, we need to teach kids the difference between the real world and those curated lives, because otherwise they end up feeling like, oh my God, you know, I'm inadequate compared to these people. Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

But the thing that I have with that whole scrolling of social media is that we all keep saying, this is bad for us, we need to stop this, we need to change it. That's what we keep saying, but no one's giving the answers.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, it's true.

[Jamie Lang]

And even you and I sit here and go, we know it's bad, right? But what do we do to stop it? Because it's only getting more. It's only getting places. These big corporations are only making more money and they're only working out better algorithms to suck us in more and more.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

That's the problem that the algorithms are scientifically based on. They are really good at figuring out what captures and holds attention. They're working with the ways our brains react to stimuli. Right? And that's a problem. I mean, that's begun to be uncovered. You know, there were a bunch of hearings in our Congress about that, about how meta and some of these companies are doing this. What we haven't figured out yet. Is what to do about that because there's so much money in it involved. There's so much money that's being made by capturing and holding our attention. And it's amoral. They don't care what they capture and hold it with. Right. They just want to capture it.

[Jamie Lang]

What did your study show when we hit the digital age?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, we haven't shown much yet because our generations were the World War II generation. And they're still trying to figure out how to turn on their phones. Right? I mean, they really are. We joke with them and they joke with us. Like, we wanted to do an online survey with them and they said, we can't do that. And then the.

[Jamie Lang]

Really?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, they just said, no, we're not going to do that. Send us another paper questionnaire. And then the baby boomers, the second generation, which is how old? They're 60s. Right. You know, so those are often people, too, who find computers, you know, hard to work with. Very different from digital natives. We have not studied digital natives, so I can't say from my research what that shows.

[Fin AI Ad Voice]

AI is transforming customer service. It's real and it works. And with Fin, we've built the number one AI agent for customer service. We're seeing lots of cases where it's solving up to 90% of real queries for real businesses. This includes the real world, complex stuff like issuing a refund or canceling an order. And we also see it when FIN goes up against competitors. It's top of all the performance benchmarks, top of the G2 leaderboard. And if you're not happy, we'll refund you up to a million dollars, which I think says it all. Check it out for yourself at fin, AI.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

Raise your hand if you want your nails to look perfect all the time. Me too. I'm Sarah Gibson Tuttle, the founder of Olive and June. And this is exactly why we created the Gel Mani system. We wanted to make it possible for everyone everywhere to give themselves a beautiful manicure at home with our tools and our gel polish that lasts up to 21 days. Each manicure with our system comes out to just $2. That's right, $2. No more. 60, 70, $80. Salon chips that take hours. Now you can paint your nails on your time and love them more than ever. And by the way, when people ask you where you got your nails done, you're going to proudly brag that you did them yourself. And here's a little something extra. Head over to oliveandjune.com and get 20% off your first gel mani system with code DIY GEL20. That's code DIY GEL20 for 20% off your first mani [e-mail] DIY GEL20.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Do I am.

[Jamie Lang]

Are you optimistic about the future? Oh, God.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

I mean, I live in the United States. Right.

[Jamie Lang]

So, yes.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

I don't know what to say. I mean. Well, okay, I'm just going to tell you this. My world, in my world, I'm very optimistic about the future. In the world of the people I work with, the people I care about, the things I'm involved in, I'm really optimistic. When I look at what is falling apart, I am really scared. Right. And the problem is that they're going out in my country. They're going after everything that I hold dear. So they're going after being kind to people. They're like, grabbing people off the street and doing horrible things. Right. They're going after science, which I've devoted my life to. Right. And saying science doesn't matter and. Right. They're going after health care and spreading misinformation. So these are. These are so. There's such big things in my life that to watch these under attack has made me despair until I get up out of my chair and I go do something about it. So I'm going to protests.

[Jamie Lang]

Wow.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

And I'm signing. Oh, yeah. And I'm signing petitions and. Oh, yeah. Because the. The. The goal is to not cooperate with things that we see that are wrong.

[Jamie Lang]

And such a big example there of. We expect others to do it for us, but we have to do it ourselves.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah. Because we, you know, myself included, everybody I know is we're sort of deer in the headlights initially. And then we have to stop being deer in the headlights and we have to go do something about it.

[Jamie Lang]

Robert, this has been honestly, truly amazing. I really, like, honestly appreciate absolutely everything of this. As I said, I was a huge fan.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

This is really fun.

[Jamie Lang]

Oh, it was. Trust me, for me, it was the greatest. We like to end the conversation with eight quick questions.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Eight, okay.

[Jamie Lang]

Everyone says that, but it can be quick far if you want. Are you ready for this? Okay. What's the saying or phrase that you'd want people to come away with from this interview?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Oh, from this interview or in your work? Can I Add a new 100%? Okay. It's from one of my Zen teachers. He said, attention is the most basic form of love. That's what I'd like people to take away.

[Jamie Lang]

I had a quote recently which was, I'm going to murder it. But it's something like embarrassment is an emotion that we never explore. Go make a fool of yourself.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yes. I love that.

[Jamie Lang]

So good.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

I love that.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, we don't explore it. It's very good. Best compliment anyone's ever given you for your work.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Oh, that. It changed the way they're living their life. I mean, that was like, whoa. Because people, people have talked about how they've started treating their relationships differently.

[Jamie Lang]

I do it now. That's why the reason I do what I do in terms of connect with my friends and speak to them differently is because of your TED Talk.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Wow.

[Jamie Lang]

I'm not even kidding you.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Wow.

[Jamie Lang]

Because I knew that it's the easiest answer. Go and speak, go and connect.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

And the reason I gave the TED Talk is because it began to dawn on me that we were publishing these findings in journals that nobody reads. Nobody. And so we had all this information and we were hiding it. And so it seemed to me imperative that we take all this information and bring it to people who could use it.

[Jamie Lang]

So important. And, you know, this is what's so good. In the book, you say to the families we were born into and the families we've helped create.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Right. Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Which is kind of an amazing. I just love it. Right. Number three, what scares you most about your work?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

That people will stop doing it. Not my work, but that people will stop studying sort of the general arc of human life and what helps people thrive. Because it's big and messy, it's hard to study, it's expensive. But I really want people to do it because we learn things that can matter. So much for thriving. Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

It's so important. When was the last time you cried?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Ooh, I got tearful last night. I went to see an amazing performance. Do you know the actor Matthew Rhys?

[Jamie Lang]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

He did the Americans. Do you know, did you watch the series the Americans?

[Jamie Lang]

I would have to see his face, but I know that name.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

He's a prominent. He's a Welsh actor, but he's been in lots of stuff. So he did a one person show called Playing Burton about his idol, who was Richard Burton. And it was an astonishing show about Richard Burton exploring his life. And it was just, it was the most magnificent piece of acting. And it was so moving because it was about, you know, all the ups and terrible downs of Richard Burton's life. And so anyway, that was last night.

[Jamie Lang]

Do you know what is amazing is that when you look especially what you'll find is that in life we all have our boulders, we all have our ups. And downs. Everyone has it and no one has a sort of stream. And some are worse than others for sure. But we all have those moments in our life.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Makes us feel more connected. That we're not all perfect.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, exactly. I think when. When we realize that other people are struggling too, it's. It's a relief completely.

[Jamie Lang]

What's something you can't let go of?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Oh, I think my need for achievement, like I see how, you know, doesn't make us happy. It doesn't make us happy. And yet I find myself just looking to, you know, the next thing. And I'm trying to manage it. And I think Zen, my Zen practice helps that, but it doesn't go away.

[Jamie Lang]

I can't manage it. I can't. That's my big. Because even, Even when you achieve something, it's fleeting. Well, it is fleeting because then there's the next thing.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

You have to keep relearning it. Like, that's the one thing I know that these lessons I think I've learned, I have to keep relearning. But I think, you know, so what I do now is I'm much more intentional about, you know, if there's a choice between doing something with family and doing some achieving thing. I'm really clear now. It's just, you know, like, it much clearer than I used to be. And so. And you're going to have to make a lot of choices now that you have this little one coming into your life, you know, and so you'll be making choices all the time.

[Jamie Lang]

Choices to achieve rather than see the family.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

What's your guilty pleasure?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Chocolate Delicious.

[Jamie Lang]

Dark milk. White.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Dark white chocolate. White chocolate is an abomination.

[Jamie Lang]

I don't love white chocolate.

[Dr. Horton Ad Voice]

Are you kidding?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

I hate it.

[Jamie Lang]

Do you go 90%, 80% dark chocolate?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

No, really, I'm kind of more like 60, 70.

[Jamie Lang]

Oh, okay.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Sorry.

[Jamie Lang]

I know it's not as hardcore as me. I'm up there towards that 90%. What's your biggest turn off?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Arrogance.

[Jamie Lang]

What's your biggest turn on?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Humility and curiosity. It's like people who are really wanting to constantly learn and not resting on what they already know.

[Jamie Lang]

There's an amazing guy called Alain de Botton and he. Oh, yeah, yeah, he's incredible. And he said his biggest turn on is when someone says, oh, interesting. Oh, maybe. Oh, that's good. And aren't certain.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Yes. Zen emphasizes what they call not knowing and beginner's mind, meaning bringing a kind of fresh mind even to the things you think you're absolutely sure of Last question.

[Jamie Lang]

Out of all your studies, what is the most interesting thing you've ever found?

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

Well, the most interesting thing is how many ways there are to have a good life. Like, there are people who've had lives which I would hate in my study, Right. I read about them and they make choices that I think are just terrible, and they're on paths that I would never take, and they love their lives, and that has been the best thing for me. Right.

[Jamie Lang]

So not one size fits all.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

No, One size never fits all. And my size for a life doesn't fit all by any means.

[Jamie Lang]

Oh, thank you so much. This has been brilliant every single way. And I really appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you so much.

[Fin AI Ad Voice]

It's been amazing.

[Dr. Robert Waldinger]

This was fun.

[Fin AI Ad Voice]

AI is transforming customer service. It's real and it works. And with fin, we've built the number one AI agent for customer service. We're seeing lots of cases where it's solving up to 90% of real queries for real businesses. This includes the real world, complex stuff like issuing a refund or canceling an order. And we also see it when FIN goes up against competitors. It's top of all the performance benchmarks, top of the G2 leaderboard. And if you're not happy, we'll refund you up to a million dollars, which I think says it all. Check it out for yourself at fin AI.

[NyQuil Ad Voice]

When the flu is keeping you up at night, don't try to tough it out. Knock out your flu symptoms with NYQUIL Intense Flu. You got this. It provides powerful relief of your flu symptoms so you can sleep well through the night. NYQUIL Intense Flu. The nighttime Sniffling, aching, aching fever. Best sleep with a flu medicine. Use as directed. Keep out of reach of children.

[Dr. Horton Ad Voice]

Hey, marketers, here's something to note. 75% of listeners don't consider podcasters to be influencers. Yet 84% say a podcaster has changed their mind about something they once believed. That's the paradox of podcast influence. It's built on credibility, not clout. Trust, not trends. Acast's podcast Pulse2025 report reveals how podcast creators are redefining influence through resonance, multiplatform fandoms and their ability to shape culture. Get the full report [e-mail].