EMMA BARNETT: My IVF Journey & Why I Felt Like I’d Failed at Fertility

Summary

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Great Company with Jamie Laing

Episode Title: EMMA BARNETT: My IVF Journey & Why I Felt Like I’d Failed at Fertility
Release Date: May 12, 2026
Host: Jamie Laing (Jampot Productions)
Guest: Emma Barnett

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Overview of the Episode

This episode of “Great Company” is a profoundly open, candid, and insightful conversation between Jamie Laing and journalist Emma Barnett. Centered on Emma’s journey through infertility, endometriosis, IVF, and the wider emotional landscape of motherhood, the discussion also delves into resilience, honesty, the challenges of modern parenthood, professional ambition, and navigating tough conversations—both in personal life and journalism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Emma Barnett’s Fertility and IVF Journey

• Endometriosis Diagnosis & Impact: Emma shares her years-long struggle to conceive, later finding out she had endometriosis.

  • “I don't think I've actually spoken about this properly before, but I collapsed in the park and it was so awful, Jamie. But I now know I have endometriosis. But at the time I didn't know.” (10:01)

• Multiple Rounds of IVF:

  • Emma and her husband went through seven rounds of IVF, six of which were for their daughter.
  • She describes IVF as being less a process, more like “a fucking casino.” (30:09)
  • The decision to try “one last round” after a miscarriage was spurred by the perspective of a friend who reframed the loss as proof that pregnancy was possible.
  • "I nearly didn't do the last round, which led to our daughter because we had a miscarriage and I was done. Jamie. I was like, I am, you know, spent." (00:00/32:36)

• Emotional Toll & Marital Dynamics:

  • Emma discusses the sense of guilt and perceived failure, gratitude for her supportive husband, and the necessity of support networks beyond immediate family.
  • “What was incredible about Jeremy is at no point did he blame me. I felt terrible. We couldn't have a baby because of me. That is not the narrative of I'm trying to blame myself … It's just fact.” (25:18)

2. Navigating Friendship and Support During Infertility

• The Limits of Empathy:

  • Emma argues that “the fertile can't really comfort the infertile,” and emphasizes the need for a “new squad” who truly “get it.”
  • “Somebody might say this is not very kind or confrontational, whatever, but it's just truth. I'm sorry to say that I do find that the fertile can't really comfort the infertile.” (32:50)
  • She introduces the concept of “IVF fairies” — peer supporters who know the unspoken language of the IVF/infertility journey. (33:07)

• Complex Feelings:

  • Discussion of complex emotions like jealousy, grief, and isolation when friends conceive while you cannot.
  • “When your friends are having children and you can't, it has a particularly difficult flavor to it because you want to be happy for your friends and you are happy for them, but you're mourning either a miscarriage or another failed round.” (00:00/34:27)

3. Emma’s Approach to Journalism & Hard Conversations

• Learning from Upbringing:

  • As an only child, Emma learned to be frank, inquisitive, and unafraid of adult conversations.
  • Mentions influential figures in her early life, particularly her independent godmother, Auntie Jean. (16:10)

• Interviewing Techniques:

  • Comfortable with silence: Emma is willing to let an awkward pause hang, sometimes for over ten seconds on live radio.
  • Notable Moments:
    • “I held somebody's eye contact... for 12 seconds while they tried to answer the question.” (19:11)
    • Maximum preparation is her standard; she is deeply conscientious about representing both the guest and the audience well. (07:48)
  • Practical Tips:
    • Research thoroughly.
    • Don’t back away from a question if it isn’t answered.
    • “A journalist runs towards a fire, they don't run away.” (22:13)

4. Motherhood, Identity, and Social Pressure

• Maternity Leave & Motherhood Identity:

  • Emma references her book, “Maternity Leave: A Love Letter to Mothers from the Front Line of Maternity Leave,” observing that the period is paradoxically depleting and alienating.
  • “Maternity Leave can seem as though it is almost designed to make you not feel like you on the outside just as much as the inside.” (39:14)
  • The reality of early motherhood—monotony, loss of identity, service to others—contrasts romanticized expectations.

• Permission to be Honest:

  • Emma vows to be honest about the good and bad of motherhood and infertility, rather than only telling “victor” narratives where IVF worked.
  • “I wanted to write about it when it went wrong. I didn't want to write about it when I got there.” (36:29)

5. Public Life, Social Media, and Judgment

• Navigating Criticism:
  • Both discuss being online targets—Emma for her journalism, Jamie for his optimism and social sharing—and how criticism often reveals more about the critic than the target.
  • “My view is those who matter know and those who don't don't. And I live by that.” (46:11)
  • Emma recounts a direct message she received, its jealous origins, and her response, underscoring the importance of context and compassion. (48:05–50:17)

6. Relationships, Marriage & Entrepreneurship

• Meeting Her Husband:

  • Emma describes an instant “slam dunk” connection and a never-ending conversational spark with Jeremy.
  • “I texted a friend from the toilet and said, he, the guy I'm going to marry… I was only 21 at the time but I did know and I thought, wow, that's a bit early.” (55:52)

• Advice for Entrepreneurs—Especially Couples:

  • Jamie and Emma compare notes on working with their partners, emphasizing the necessity of loving the day-to-day work, maintaining perspective, and open communication.
  • “Once you start it, you can't turn it off…You gotta love it, what you do because you have to turn up every single day.” (63:15)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It's a fucking casino.” — Emma Barnett on IVF (30:09)
• “A journalist runs towards a fire, they don't run away.” — Emma Barnett (22:13)
• “You try having two C sections, perimenopause and endometriosis. And then getting back up from an injury. Come on, Jamie.” (09:55)
• “The fertile can't really comfort the infertile.” — Emma Barnett (32:50)
• “My view is those who matter know and those who don't don't. And I live by that.” — Emma Barnett (46:11)
• “I wanted to write about it when it went wrong. I didn't want to write about it when I got there.” — Emma Barnett (36:29)
• “You have to develop a talent as a woman in the working world…for being disliked, even if you don't want to be.” (45:21)
• “History's written by the victors, Jamie. The people who do well get to have the biggest voice.” — Emma Barnett (35:23)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00–00:23: Emma on the pain of infertility amid friends’ pregnancies
• 07:37–08:53: Emma on being intimidated by lack of preparation and her high standards
• 10:01–12:34: Emma’s physical health, failed running attempt, endometriosis and collapse
• 15:28–19:39: Emma’s approach to difficult conversations and examples of silence in interviews
• 24:02–27:44: The realities of IVF, medicalization, and marital support
• 32:50–35:23: ‘The fertile can't really comfort the infertile’ and the concept of “IVF fairies”
• 39:14–41:59: Discussion of Emma’s book on maternity leave and honest motherhood
• 46:09–48:05: Handling online criticism and the importance of context
• 55:09–58:11: The story of meeting and connecting with her husband
• 62:09–64:07: Entrepreneurship, marital dynamics, business advice

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Quick Fire Round (66:00–67:50)

• Phrase that cheers you up: "This too shall pass." (66:04)
• Best compliment: "That was a great snog." (66:12)
• Scares her about herself: "My body. The pain." (66:20)
• Last time she cried: "About four hours ago...just fighting the end of a virus and I'm so frustrated by being poorly." (66:24)
• Guilty pleasure: "Chippy chips. Like fat ones, salt and vinegar." (66:49)
• Turns her off: "Iron filings...if they were magnetized and they look like tiny hairs." (67:09)
• Turns her on: "A wonderful whiskey or a vodka martini and a roaring fire." (67:28)
• What she likes most about herself: "I like that I want to have joy, you know, I like trying to live a good life." (67:50)

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Tone & Vibe

• Candid, empathetic, and witty—marked by honesty, mutual respect, and sharp but compassionate humor.
• Supportive and hopeful, not sugarcoated—Emma is open about pain, grief, and complexity but also champions resilience, connection, and finding small joys.
• Insightful for both listeners navigating fertility struggles and anyone interested in bold, meaningful conversation.

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For those who haven’t heard the episode:
You’ll find a heartfelt exploration of personal and professional resilience, the emotional realities of IVF and motherhood, and a treasure trove of practical wisdom for handling adversity, asking tough questions, and being authentically yourself—even when life feels like a casino.

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Find Emma’s work:

• Podcast: Ready to Talk
• Book: "Maternity Leave: A Love Letter to Mothers from the Front Line of Maternity Leave"
• Business: Colour Your Streets

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Transcript

[Emma Barnett]

When your friends are having children and you can't, it has a particularly difficult flavor to it because you want to be happy for your friends and you are happy for them, but you're mourning either a miscarriage or another failed round. I nearly didn't do the last round, which led to our daughter because we had a miscarriage and I was done. Jamie. I was like, I am, you know, spent.

[Jamie]

Just for someone who is listening, who's going through IVF as a friend or as that individual, what can you say or do to help them?

[Emma Barnett]

Somebody might say, this is confrontational, whatever, but it's just truth. Hi, I'm Emma Barnett and I am in great company, award winning BBC journalist and one of the sharpest interviewers in Britain. So how much will it cost?

[Jamie]

The way you interview is so great because you are not afraid to ask the tough questions.

[Emma Barnett]

I held somebody's eye contact.

[Jamie]

No, you didn't.

[Emma Barnett]

For 12 seconds while they tried to answer the question, who was it with? So there's the two. You have to hear about both. Yeah, my producer Darren's looking at me and he's going like this, please talk, please talk, Emma. Break it. And I was like, not breaking it, not breaking it. A journalist runs towards a fire, they don't run away. You have to keep looking at them and keep going towards it. And don't be put off by politeness. I don't think I've actually spoken about this properly before, but I collapsed in the park and it was so awful. Jamie. But I now know I have endometriosis. But at the time I didn't know.

[Jamie]

What did you expect from the IVF journey?

[Emma Barnett]

It's a fucking casino.

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[Emma Barnett]

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[Emma Barnett]

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[Emma Barnett]

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[Jamie]

Hey everyone. Welcome back to Great Company. A few things to tell you today, which I'm really excited about. We have an amazing guest on the show. Her name is Emma Barnett. Now, you may have heard of Emma Barnett, but you may not have heard of Emma Barnett. Emma's interviewed some of the biggest names on earth. She's one of the most intelligent, wittiest, smartest, funniest people that I've ever had the pleasure of interviewing. And I wanted to interview her because she is a master at doing this. She has a way with words, a way with interviewing that is second to none. And I want to get really into the depths of how she does that, how she finds ways to ask the hard questions, how she feels comfortable sitting, being uncomfortable, because a lot of us in life always want to be comfortable rather than being uncomfortable. And she kind of feels quite comfortable in that space. We spoke about our upbringing, her life. We also tapped into business and all those different areas. You're going to absolutely love this episode today. I'm really excited for it. Now, before we start, I just want to say that if you haven't subscribed to Great Company, if you can do that one thing for us, just click that button and join the amazing community of incredible people who are already following us. It means we can keep making a better show, keep delivering on guests, and just make the whole experience for you even better. So if you can do that, one thing thank you so much. Okay, here we go. Enjoy this amazing episode of Great Company with Emma Barnett. Do you know what I'm nervous about today?

[Emma Barnett]

Oh, okay. Oh, don't be. That's not gonna be good.

[Jamie]

I get nervous when I interview who I think are smart people because I think at school I had bad dyslexia, but it wasn't diagnosed as dyslexia, so people thought I was stupid. Right, so ever since you were a kid, you then think you're stupid. I think that still stays with you throughout time. So knowing how smart you are, I was intimidated. I am intimidated at interviews.

[Emma Barnett]

Recollections vary. As the Queen once said. That's sad though, that it's still in your like. Do you think you can rewire that? Because obviously it's hard.

[Jamie]

I don't know if you can.

[Emma Barnett]

You know, the way that we judge smarts at school. I've thought about that since is. And I'm thinking about it now. I have an 8 year old who's going through the school system and I have a three year old who thinks she's going through the school system, as in she's looking at all his homework and trying to get involved as three year olds do. And I think the ability to pass exams and the way that we emphasize that so are keg just. It's quite uninspiring, isn't it?

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, totally. And what I find about the school system is life is about collaboration, it's about copying, it's about being inspired by others. But at school you're taught to do the opposite, which is kind of like a weird thing. You're not meant to copy or collaborate, you're not meant to do that.

[Emma Barnett]

Don't copy or collaborate. That's such a good point. But you are also meant to be able to remember the exact same information as the person next to you, which is wild, right?

[Jamie]

And produce it and produce a similar thing. Right. And also there's not. At school, it's not very unique, right? The way that you do things, the arguments are the same, the same sort of essays you're writing, everything's quite similar. So I didn't excel at school, so that sort of stayed with me. But my question to you then is what intimidates you?

[Emma Barnett]

I don't like not being prepared for things, you know, just cause you've put me in a frame of mind of, I suppose, work or intellect or. I'm predominantly a live broadcaster, but for instance, I have done many interviews where somebody's just been sprung on me and it's gone really, really well. You know, it's a dynamic I love live. Cause anything can happen and there's an adrenaline to that. But of course, if you know, you were suddenly in a situation where you had to interview the Prime Minister and you hadn't read any of the papers in advance that they were about to talk about or something quite policy or detail that would intimidate you, I would find that. I would find it really concerning, yeah. Because I would want to do a good enough job for our listeners and our viewers, you know, and I would want to do a good enough job for me.

[Jamie]

Okay, but is it. When if you had to interview the Prime Minister suddenly and you weren't prepared, will you be intimidated because you are going to let yourself down or the list of boats?

[Emma Barnett]

I have horribly high standards.

[Jamie]

Do you?

[Emma Barnett]

Yes. And I really believe. I really believe in asking the questions that have been very carefully thought about. And that's what I want to be able to do. And an interview with someone who needs to be held to account, make no mistake, is very different to an interview I would do with somebody like yourself through to even, you know, someone who actually perhaps has something quite difficult to answer but is a member of the public, there is a diff. I always think if I can explain that to people, there is a difference to how we have to at times speak to those who hold office and need to be held to account. It's a job. I don't ask them about their husbands, I don't ask them about their kids. All that's off limits, really. If it's about how you're deciding the lives of the British people, I have to know exactly what you know. So yes, it would be very wrong if I wasn't worried about that. But I think speaking to your wider point around intimidation and I tried to learn to roller skate last year, it's gone spectacularly badly.

[Jamie]

Roller skate or blade skate?

[Emma Barnett]

Let's be honest here. I was thinking blade. I could not. He could annoyingly do everything physical and lots of other things as well. But I tried to set myself this challenge because you'll laugh at the reason. I watched the film Barbie, okay. Slept for most of it. And the bit I liked was her going down a boulevard. And I was about to turn 40 and I was like, do you know what? I'm gonna learn some fucking skates because

[Jamie]

I'm gonna look really cool.

[Emma Barnett]

I'm gonna look amazing getting out some kind of bum bag and doing that. And I love where this has gone.

[Jamie]

That is the wildest way to think about roller skating. That you wanted to look like Barbie.

[Emma Barnett]

I was gonna fly to America. I was gonna do that thing. I love Miami. I love the boulevard there. Love all life is there. Lots of our family live in America. And I had this crazy idea. Anyway, I got an injury week, three of the lessons. And then I got really intimidated by the whole thing. So I have to get back on my skate soon. Cause I have not.

[Jamie]

Sorry. That is the lamest intimidation I've ever heard. You're intimidated to roller skate?

[Emma Barnett]

You try having two C sections, perimenopause and endometriosis. And then getting back up from an injury. Come on, Jamie.

[Jamie]

I thought I'd just opened up.

[Emma Barnett]

I'm intimidated by my body.

[Jamie]

I thought I'd opened up a real thing. I was like, here we go. We're gonna get deep. And it's like, I am intimidated by roller skating.

[Emma Barnett]

She talks about interviewing the prime minister and roller skates. It was the definition of the high, low. It was.

[Jamie]

So that's the only thing that intimidates you? Roller skating and interviewing the prime minister?

[Emma Barnett]

Well, I suppose roller skating, skiing, things where I'm out of control physically.

[Jamie]

So that makes me.

[Emma Barnett]

Ah. So what I'm trying to say is I would like to return in some ways to the physicality of my youth. I'm 41. I'm not that old, but I'm not what I was. And, you know, I was thinking about your running and that amazingness. I used to love running. And I genuinely. I don't think I've actually spoken about this properly before, but I tried to train for a half marathon when all of our infertility was going on, because that might be something positive I could do with my body, because I couldn't get my body to have a baby. And we tried for. Without any assistance for two, two and a half years. And I collapsed in the park. And it was so awful, Jamie. You know, it was my local park. I was with a really good friend who was training with me. It was the royal half. Never done anything like that before. And it was just a half. I mean, not that halves aren't anything, but I wasn't going. I'm gonna do the London Marathon, you know, straight to. And basically, my body just couldn't do it. It was all churned up. And I now know I have endometriosis, but at the time, I didn't know. And it was all over my bowel. And, you know, it's a condition where tissue, like the lining of the wound, that should leave. The body doesn't and builds up. And at the time, I had it quite badly and I again didn't know. And that was the reason for our infertility as well. So I collapsed very badly and I've not really run since. And that was nine years ago. So I think there is a deeper answer, probably linked to roller skating, skiing, kind of sort of vigorous pursuits. And I. I can walk very well and walk very fast. I'm a good walker. I don't walk anywhere slowly. I'm not a woman who's sedentary, shall we say, although I love a sedentary job. Microphone's great for that. And I have a trainer now twice a week. My investment of time and money has gone towards weights. And I'm really strong, but I have.

[Jamie]

It's a great way to train with weights.

[Emma Barnett]

I wouldn't have known how, you know, that's intimidating, walking into a gym, trying to lift weights for the first time. Not hurt yourself. But I feel I'm trying to get my strength and confidence back around my body.

[Jamie]

I mean, you're a super high achiever, Right. And everything you do, you've sort of achieved what you've wanted to achieve and you're continuing to achieve. Right. So perhaps that's what it suggests, is that when you can't do something that you want to do, that's what gets you into irritated, upset, angry. You know, that's what intimidates you because you're like, oh, I might fail at that. So therefore I don't want to approach it because, oh, my God, I can't do that. And that's annoying.

[Emma Barnett]

I think there's something in that. I mean, people aren't very honest about not going near things that they'll fail at totally. And I think that's a really clever observation by you. And I would say, though, I have put myself in scenarios that aren't the most comfortable in terms of job and life. You know, at times I am that person in the group who gets asked to do the difficult things. You know, the difficult conversations, like, we don't want this person to live with us. At uni, I had to tell the person, we don't want that. No, I am the shit shuffler.

[Jamie]

Wait, hold on. So what. So how does that conversation go?

[Emma Barnett]

There's several versions of those sorts of things that happen in my life. Yeah, no, just there was a large group. You remember uni? I don't know if you had this.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Emma Barnett]

Where you just try to figure out who's going to live with who? And whatever the reason, it wasn't even that personal. This person didn't really fit into how the group shook down. And everyone went, barna, you need to tell them. And I was like, this is you. Everyone called me Barnett at university.

[Jamie]

This is in Nottingham, right?

[Emma Barnett]

Yes. Why has it got to be me? And I thought, do you know what? They deserve to know.

[Jamie]

So role play it with me. So I'm your roommate. Let's just try this out.

[Emma Barnett]

Well, we were all in, like, halls, obviously. Yeah. Not yet in the house.

[Jamie]

You're not in the house yet?

[Emma Barnett]

No, no, no, no. They've not moved in. And I've been told to it picked

[Jamie]

and I'm your friend and I say, so I'm going to live with you. Is that okay?

[Emma Barnett]

I'm really sorry, it's just not going to work out.

[Jamie]

Oh, my God. Brutal.

[Emma Barnett]

But you've got this person. That would be great. I'm not even sure he should want to live with us. I'll probably be more at yours than at mine. I'm really sorry, but I just wanted you to know straight so you could make your own alternative plans.

[Jamie]

Fantastic. Everyone can learn from that.

[Emma Barnett]

But, you know, my husband is not. He, of course, married me. He's not someone who's unable to, for instance, you know, have hard conversations to tell me if he doesn't agree with something. All of that, you know, I hate that sort of sexist thing, that if a man's married to a strong woman, they must be like, no, not at all. He doesn't like confrontation or that sort of thing. Whereas I don't love it. And I've actually grown to like it less as I get older in my personal life.

[Jamie]

But you've trained yourself.

[Emma Barnett]

But I do feel a responsibility, and maybe it comes back to that again, to at least tell people the truth or at least try to share what's going on.

[Jamie]

Let's talk about your interviews. Cause your interview style is pretty impeccable. But the way you interview is so great because you are not afraid to ask the tough questions. I lean away sometimes. I'm trying to do it much better. Lean into the uncomfortable. I'm trying to do that. You feel like you're comfortable being uncomfortable?

[Emma Barnett]

Yeah, I've got very comfortable with silence as well, which lots of people can't deal with.

[Jamie]

I can't.

[Emma Barnett]

Only child over here. So basically lived in silence.

[Jamie]

But do you think that's what it is, do you think. Because I'm trying to understand where that comes from. Because if we look at what We've spoken about today, university. Let's get Barnett to do it. Let's get Barnett to have those difficult questions. That's a university. Right. And who's teaching you that? Or where are you learning that?

[Emma Barnett]

Well, I do think when you're an only child, you grow up only having your meals with adults. So I very quickly learned to engage without fear or favour. I didn't know that phrase then, but that's a guiding motto of most journalists, or should be. And I think I was encouraged to be inquisitive. One of the most important relationships in my life was with my godmother, who you would have loved. Champagne cocktail, always at 6pm, crafty fag on the go, had been told to stop by the doctors, had a very glamorous hair salon in Manchester, used to do all the Coronation street stars, and had her own business always, even though her husband was also doing his thing. And she was very independent. She was my grandmother's best friend, but my grandmother's. Both of them died before I was six, both young. And so the greatest gift my mother gave me was my godmother. It was an inspired choice to give me this woman, Auntie Jean, and I feel she, more than anyone, taught me to kind of row my own boat. And they're going this way, you can go that way. I think, you know, being a northerner, living down south and never really. I mean, journalists, by definition, again, proper journalists are the ultimate outsiders. I am not friends with people I interview typically. It would be very awkward if we were. And so I launched Ready To Talk, my interview series on the BBC. We're speaking now. Yeah, about three or four months ago. And I've gone back to some people. I've interviewed easily more than 2,000 people in my life and I've gone back to some people that I have kept in my head, Jamie, because when you're a live broadcaster, you get 4, 10, 11 or 13 minutes tops with people. And I have had. I've had, like, you know, questions 16, 17, 18, 19 to get to, and I didn't get to ask them. And I've been able, with this new space I've wanted to create for years, to go back. So the woman who was strip searched by the police, what happened next? You know, this incredible woman that I once interviewed on Woman's out, we went back to her through to. We had Tracey Emin on where we could really go there about womanhood and pain and art. So there's those types of interviews and I go deep and I'm not Scared, even in those interviews, of course, I'm not. Of pushing and exploring. But then you got live interviews and they're a whole other category of conversation, live broadcasts and live conversation. It's like normal conversation, but on steroids. You know, I got two people in my ear, I got the weather to go to, I got the news coming on, breaking news is happening. Anything can be going on or nothing can be going on, but you've still gotta hold the space with that person and get there. I've had two. I think of the longest silences on BBC Radio, where the listener has thought, either I've died or the guest has died or the whole network has died. One was, I think, nine seconds and one was 12. I held somebody's eye contact.

[Jamie]

No, you didn't.

[Emma Barnett]

For 12 seconds while they tried to answer the question, who was it with? So there's the two. You have to hear about both. One was a woman trying to become an MP in Yorkshire and the Labour Party was under fire. She was for Labour, about racism and antisemitism. And I just asked her a question about what she thought about what she thought about it and she did not know what to say. And so that was one of the.

[Jamie]

And she just didn't. She just.

[Emma Barnett]

She just didn't speak. And my producer Darren's looking at me a bit like, your team are here now. And he's going like this, please talk, please talk. We're getting messages from the controller. Everybody thinks we've died. Emma, break it. And I was like, not breaking it, not breaking it. And so we just literally sat and she had a battle and then she said something, but the silence was the thing. And then the other one was, do you remember Brenda Hale, Baroness Hale? She the judge of. The one who ruled about Boris Johnson. She came on. Judges and lawyers are so diplomatic.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Emma Barnett]

I asked her a question if the Justice Secretary should have always had legal training, because for the first time we were having Justice Secretaries who didn't have any legal training. It's actually just an interesting question. She realized that she might be viewed as being political and she was head of the Supreme Court at the time. I think that was the role. She just didn't speak.

[Jamie]

But, Emma, can I ask, in your head, right, when you are asking, like a hard question or, you know, someone is fumbling and most people find it awkward and they're like, are you thinking in your head, no, I'm doing this because actually I want to know. Or you also thinking, as a producer, this is going to be great as well.

[Emma Barnett]

I'm thinking this is a decent question

[Jamie]

and you have to please answer it. So it's a natural thing. You're not thinking, I've gone down the road.

[Emma Barnett]

I need. I need to know what you think. And I think we all need to know what you think. All of the moments that have been moments are usually from Jamie, the simplest of questions. Jeremy Corbyn, how much will that policy cost?

[Jamie]

So good. It's so good. And you say, you say something like, you've just done this. You should know the number. You should know what the number is.

[Emma Barnett]

Announcing the policy.

[Jamie]

Yeah, you should know what the number is. And he's going to come back to you and you go, well, you should know what it is. It's so good.

[Emma Barnett]

Where, why and when. Five W's of journalism.

[Jamie]

For someone who's listening right now, who's studying journalism, who wants to get into it or perhaps interview people, what are those techniques that you think can really nail an interview? If it's only 8 minutes, 6 minutes,

[Emma Barnett]

2 minutes, you have to nail anyone, but once they're not doing what they're meant to be doing, you just don't back away from it. So I don't design interviews to nail. I design interviews to find out. What I would say to anybody is, do your research, think in the round. And then if there is a silence or an awkward moment, you know, a journalist runs towards a fire, they don't run away. You have to keep looking at them and keep going towards it.

[Jamie]

That takeaway, running towards the fire. Running rather than away. So good.

[Emma Barnett]

But I think that's in life.

[Jamie]

So good.

[Emma Barnett]

You know, while I am a journalist, I would say I have also, by dint of speaking to so many people, become, you know, basically a professional conversationalist.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Emma Barnett]

And I can tell when people are not, you know, one of the most underused questions under, like, sort of abused questions we have in our society is how are you? So we throw it away at the beginning. We start every conversation on the phone or in person. Hey, how you doing? Yeah, I'm great. How are you? Okay, you gotta go back to that question. So another tip is, don't be afraid in life. Or if you were to be a journalist or interviewer, go back. You know, if you don't get the answer the first time, nobody answers, how are you Accurately the first time, we sort of trash it away and it's, to me, it's everything. How are you really? What's going on? You know, as you can tell, I'm not the best at small Talk. But I like to know what's going on. Like, I come home, I know there's this trope about men, and sadly, I do think it's a little bit true that they can come home from a night out and their partner, man or woman, but let's say a woman in this scenario says, how is so and so, how are they? What's going on? Have they changed job? What's. You know? And they'll be like, we just had a great time, it was really fun. I'm like, I'm, you know, probably through journalism, but I think I've always been a bit like this. Key lines come away, details, what are the headlines? The headline can be, he stubbed his toe, but that's still. There's something that happened and I want to know about it.

[Jamie]

In a relationship, you have to go through the great, and you think it's always going to be great, but there's also the bad and there's the hard. And you went through a really hard time with your fertility journey, right?

[Emma Barnett]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And I think, as you mentioned before, when you had endometriosis, right, which is an issue within your own body, your own body was letting you down in a way, and your husband was there to support you, and that must have been hard in a relationship point of view. Talk to me about that.

[Emma Barnett]

Because we had to have two lots of ivf. We ended up having seven rounds in total, but we did six of those rounds for our daughter, our second child. And actually the first time trying, when we couldn't get pregnant was awful in a different way because we didn't know why it wasn't working for quite a long time. And then it was one round of ivf, but the endurance then required to do six times. And we lost a baby on the fifth round, when trying to have our daughter was of a whole other magnitude. Plus it was locked down, so my husband wasn't allowed to come. We did all our IVF in the nhs, and I say that I had to pay for it after the first round, we had to pay for it. But I always want to say that so that people don't think they always have to go to Harley street or to really expensive places. You can do it on the cause.

[Jamie]

That's the narrative, right?

[Emma Barnett]

Yeah. You can do it on the nhs. You still pay thousands, but it's quite a bit cheaper. And what's beautiful about the NHS is there are no bells and whistles. All the drugs arrive. It looks like a big Chinese takeout, way less fun. And it just Comes and you do it. And, you know, we created IVF in this country. It's incredible. It was in a cold lab in Bolton, not far from where I grew up. The first ever IVF baby's only a few years older than me. She's 43 now, as we speak. I've met her, I've interviewed Louise Brown. It was quite a stigma back in the day, but we've come a long way. Anyway, I say all of that and to go back to the relationship, I think it tested us in different ways, especially when it became extremely medicalized. What was incredible about Jeremy is at no point did he blame me. I felt terrible. We couldn't have a baby because of me. That is not the narrative of I'm trying to blame myself or. No, it's just fact. You know, I didn't work and my God, this lovely, wonderful man deserved to be a father. I deserved to be a mother. I hoped, but I wasn't able to do it naturally. And he. I mean, it was quite funny when the IVF decision was made, because that was made within seconds, as you can tell, relatively decisive. Met an amazing woman in the NHS and she. She just said, oh, for God's sake, just try ivf. What are you doing? You've got endometriosis. You've tried for two years, it's not going well. You've got nothing to lose. You know, I always imagined if you did have to take that particular decision, it would be quite a big moment. You'd go home, you'd have a chat. Jeremy was in the other room at the hospital and I came out and said, I've just signed the papers, we're starting IVF tomorrow. And he was like, sorry, do we need to talk about this? I went, no. On this particular occasion, it's all me. Anyway, you have to appear for one thing.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah. Here we go.

[Emma Barnett]

Good luck. I'm sure you're manager and I'll just be doing the rest and. But obviously it's not just like that. Although he's not one of those men, I do have to say, those couples or people who do it, certainly not just with themselves, where the partner, in the case, where it's a heterosexual couple, the man does all the needles and you see it on social, and he's so nice and she's so like, thank you. And Jeremy said, yeah, well, I can't do any needles, so good luck.

[Jamie]

I didn't think I'd be able to do that either.

[Emma Barnett]

I mean, by the end of it, Jamie, the first time I did it. I was obviously very nervous to inject myself. By the end. I'm like, you know, wherever I am,

[Jamie]

pants, Pulp Fiction style, just like, whatever,

[Emma Barnett]

like, chuck it in my needle, my sharps, like, I had a rucksack, my sharp spin round with me. So, yeah, I mean, obviously did all the right things at the right time, but it was part of my life for a long time. But our relationship really was very strong. I had a very good friend that I also could rely on at the time who was going through it, and that also helped. So not everything had to be said to Jeremy. He did not talk to anyone about it when we were going through it. I told him he could, though. It wasn't like I was like, we can't talk about it. I said, please do if you want to. I tell you, the amazing thing about him. I feel like I only just met you, but I feel you would be the same, is he said he knew it was gonna happen.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emma Barnett]

Whole way through, I'm like, no, no. And the second time, and it really wasn't happening. You know, round three, round four, I'm going mental. They're trying me on all sorts of hormones. But even throughout that, he's like, it'll happen.

[Jamie]

It might sound silly, but what did you expect from the IVF journey then? But the actual reality, I think what

[Emma Barnett]

you read about IVF is. Can be quite gruesome in the sense of how many rounds it can take. And some people go on and on and on and, you know, for so many different reasons, and for other reasons, people can't go on, you know, financially, emotionally. They're told by the doctors there's no point. Heartbreakingly, I think I was intimidated by how much it could be my life. There were a lot of medical appointments you have to go in every single day at certain points in the cycle.

[Jamie]

I didn't know that.

[Emma Barnett]

The amazing doctor who looked after me. I was on air at 10am every day. This was when I was at Woman's Hour the second time around. And he would come in just a bit earlier because I needed to go and do my bloods at 5:30 before getting to the studio at 6. And we had, you know, quite a long lead up time for a 10am program because we have to book things on the day. And, you know, things like that are just amazing. But it was my life. Even though I tried very much for it not to be, I was worried about that. And that did come true. But you. You asked what wasn't or what was different. I mean in other ways. I completely didn't want to know about it. And did you know, I did the opposite of what I usually do. I didn't read anything, didn't research it. Why?

[Jamie]

Because.

[Emma Barnett]

Because I was like, there is no control here. It's. It's. It's a. It's. It's a fucking casino.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it's. It's just roll the. Roll the dice.

[Emma Barnett]

This is. This is casino time. Like, I. Yeah, I don't like casinos.

[Jamie]

So you didn't. So you didn't read anything. So you just went into it naive because you just thought, right, this is gonna be.

[Emma Barnett]

I'll submit to this. I spoke to lots of people in the sense of when I spoke to the doctors, I didn't not ask questions, but I didn't then go and do loads of extra. I think people can drive themselves.

[Jamie]

It's like the Google method, just Googling Google.

[Emma Barnett]

Crazy. Yeah. And I really. Despite the challenges I have with endometriosis and doctors, I still very much trust medicine. And I put myself in the hands of people who are trying to help me have a family. I nearly didn't do the last round, you know, which led to our daughter because we had a miscarriage. And I was done. Jamie, I was like, I am, you know, spent. I'm emotionally, physically wrung out. And my friend Dr. Katie, as we always call her, she's not a doctor in the IVF world, but she's completely different sphere. But she was the one going through it at the time. It's like a film. We lived on the same road. We hadn't known each other before. We both had one boy each. The audacity of us wanting a second child haunted us. You know, we should just be happy with what we've got. But we would like another child. And she was a couple of rounds ahead of me, if you like. But we had a miscarriage on the same round. And weirdly, her response was the thing that got me back in the ring. Because she said to me, emma, I know it's awful. You've had a miscarriage. And we did find out there was something wrong with that baby. She said, nature's done what it needed to do, but it works. We've got proof. You can get pregnant again. You gotta go again. And I was like, you're crazy. You are fucking crazy. Like, I can't do this again. And she was like. And I'd gone out for a walk with her because we'd done so many Covid walks when you were alone. And I Came back and Jeremy was also like, we're not gonna go again. That's fine. I can't watch you go through this again. And. Cause I honestly did all of it on my own. Like, he was not present for any of it because of COVID And it's a lot. It was. Yeah, it was a huge amount. Anyway, I came back in and I was sort of like. Like vibing, buzzing a bit. He was like, oh, my God, we're going again. She got you to go again. And I was like, anyway, that was our baby. And she also got pregnant that same round. And our babies were born three days apart, which is just insane.

[Jamie]

That is amazing. Just for someone who is listening, who's going through IVF as a friend or as that individual, what can you say or do to help them?

[Emma Barnett]

Somebody might say this is not very kind or confrontational, whatever, but it's just truth. I'm sorry to say that I do find that the fertile can't really comfort the infertile.

[Jamie]

Okay, you can a bit, but not really.

[Emma Barnett]

I believe in life. The older I get with certain things I've had to navigate. You've got. You're always got your, you know, your woman, she's very close to you, always. She'll love you, she can depend on you. You can bring her soup, you can bring her vodka, whatever she needs, right? But then for certain scenarios, you get a new squad and certain people step up. I had an IVF fairy. I've had two. I'm now a fairy to a few other women who are going through it. And they just text me any time of day. I swap everything. I reply like we have a hidden language. Similarly with Endo, similarly now with Perimenopause. For me, you know, there are just certain people that step up a little bit more because you're in it together. And that doesn't mean your other friends can't help you. And I can understand that some of my friends, especially in my IVF years, felt left out because I go. You know, you go into a bit of a hole. And especially that particular thing when your friends are having children and you can't. It has a particularly difficult flavor to it because you want to be happy for your friends and you are happy for them, but you're mourning either a miscarriage or another failed round. So I just think it's particularly complicated.

[Jamie]

Is there a sense of unfairness in

[Emma Barnett]

and dare I say, like, jealousy, the feelings of darkness. Suddenly when you can't get something, it shouldn't be about other people, but Pregnancy, especially as a woman, it's so hard to see on other women when you can't get there. And that is why I'll never forget. And I've done quite a lot journalistically. I don't think I've done a lot personally, but I've tried to do it through the platforms. I have to always remember the women who don't get there and the women and men who don't get there. And my last episode of Women's Hour, I prioritized having a conversation with women who wanted children and could never have them. Because history's written by the victors, Jamie. The people who do well get to have the biggest voice. So after the miscarriage, I was sat downstairs in our living room and I didn't sleep and my husband came down the next day. You know, we've still got a child at this point. We've got a three year old. It's not like when you're trying and you don't have a child still, what to look after a baby boy, Our incredible son. You know, the boy made me a mother. And he said to me, well, I feel like you've made some big decisions tonight. And I was like, yeah, I made three quite big decisions. He was like, what are they? And I was like, one, I'm going to resign from Newsnight.

[Jamie]

Oh, my God.

[Emma Barnett]

He was like, okay. I said, two, I've said yes to going on Michael McIntyre's the Big Wheel. I was like, fuck it. I'm getting in this giant wheel. And I answering some questions and winning, as it turned out. Becky, I helped get this woman 90 grand. And number three, I've written an article and I've submitted it to the Times. And he went, sorry, what about what? And I said that we've been trying and we've had five rounds. One miscarriage and there is no baby. I am done with people only writing about IVF when it works. And that is still the article that I get the most. I get men. Loads of men write to me. I found this article. Me and my wife were reading it. We're sobbing because I wanted to write about it when it went wrong. I didn't want to write about it when I got there.

[Jamie]

It's interesting because that's so open. It's so open and honest.

[Emma Barnett]

It was a bit. It was a bit. But I was like, fuck this. I was so frustrated. Fertile people, women who want to have children don't have to give it a lot of thought. You don't sit and go, oh, really want to Be a mum. I mean, maybe you do, but typically you don't. Weirdly, when you're infertile, you have to sign up for a whole system and process. Potentially got you. That makes you have to decide.

[Jamie]

Got it.

[Emma Barnett]

And then I made a clear thing, which a lot of women come and talk to me about still, that I would also allow myself to say if it was shit being a mum or not. Cause I wasn't gonna make myself have that terrible thing of be grateful for them every single second of every single day. Be grateful for the experience. Of course I am. I cannot believe on Mother's Day, Pickle one and Pickle Two, as we'll call them. They do love eating pickles. And they are my absolute pickles. And I'm a Jewish mum, right? I'm looking at Pickle One and Pickle Two crawling all over my husband. Our virus ridden household as it happened to be. Thanks so much to my son's class. And at certain moments I'm like, oh my gosh, how I think I'll never get over. I will never get over being a mother. In a way that's different to saying I love being a mom. Da da da. It's a sliding doors moment. And yeah, I work very hard at that. Sliding doors. But you can work really hard and leave the casino with nothing.

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[Jamie]

You gave me your paperback book, Maternity Leave. A Love Letter to Mothers from the Front Line of Maternity Leave. And you've written in this, which I saw maternity Leave can seem as though it is almost designed to make you not feel like you on the outside just as much as the inside. That's so interesting. For so many different reasons. Right? We. 12 weeks into our baby, right?

[Emma Barnett]

And mazel tog.

[Jamie]

Thank you so much. It's fucking wild.

[Emma Barnett]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it is.

[Emma Barnett]

How you doing over there, kid?

[Jamie]

Fucking hell.

[Emma Barnett]

How many sweets are you eating? Oh, my gosh.

[Jamie]

I don't know if I'm coming or going. I don't know what the hell is going on. People will you say to me, oh, you make sure you get sleep before. And I was like, I don't really need sleep.

[Emma Barnett]

You can't bank sleep.

[Jamie]

You can't.

[Emma Barnett]

And I was like, doesn't happen.

[Jamie]

Freaking. Okay. Maternity feels like. And you write about this sort of in your book. It's meant to be like a holiday, but it's the opposite. Not for a holiday.

[Emma Barnett]

I just. I had sort of three outfits on repeat. I did look like Steve Jobs. Five stretchy black polar necks. I just. I had a drill time. I mean, I was. I was just walking miles with nowhere to go.

[Jamie]

But then. Can I ask you this? Because you had been through IVF and all these different things, did you feel like you had to love it, but at the same time you were like, well, this really.

[Emma Barnett]

I'm a massive feminist and I read my way through anything, Jamie. I was like, hang on, let's find the Cusks, the Rachel Cusks of this world. There's an amazing book, I'll send it to your wife, called what Mothers Are Doing When They Look Like They're Doing Nothing. And it's really liberating because it tells you, amongst loads of other things, is the accounts of lots of different women. Don't take credit for the good stuff your kid does, because you also then don't have to be responsible for the bad stuff they do. It's a very liberating account of motherhood and a healthy way. There's a whole section of the world that doesn't know about the psychology of a good enough mother, which was coined by the British doctor Donald Winnicott. I had access through my one superpower, Jamie. I can read anything quickly conjugate it and explain it.

[Jamie]

Get out of here.

[Emma Barnett]

And so I read, like, ChatGPT. I read everything about the experience of the mother. Now, what I didn't think was out there, and this is a very, very short book, and I honestly get amazing messages because of how short it is. People are happy, is that I wanted to capture the experience live, because I couldn't find anything about this period of time. And I suddenly realized it was like service, maternity service. The word service. When I'm chopping the ninth carrot of the week, the 12th cucumber, the 14th red pepper. I mean, it's so deadening and boring. Service helps me dig deep. The word service is linked to the word family, but it's also linked to the word love.

[Jamie]

Wow.

[Emma Barnett]

And I have came. Now I'm a second child. I made peace with so much of it, but the first time I fought loads of it.

[Jamie]

Cause it's not stimulating.

[Emma Barnett]

I have watched time pass. I have genuinely mistimed something with my daughter's nap, then having to do the school pickup. Cause once you have the blessed position of two, you have to time two children. It's like a really bad DJ set. And I've mistimed something by 40 minutes once so that everything was done. I was ready to go and get my child, but it was an hour early. And I literally watched the clock turn. Cause I didn't have anything else to do and I wasn't gonna start anything else. And you actually don't often. I don't know if your wife said this to you. If you do get a tiny bit of a moment to yourself, I call them from this amazing writer. She said, sips of selfhood. So me and my husband try and give each other like an hour or two here. You've gotta know what you wanna go and do with that time.

[Jamie]

100%.

[Emma Barnett]

You've often lost the energy by the time you get it. And that's the talent of parenthood, is to snatch some joy as well as the joy of the parenting.

[Jamie]

Okay, so can I ask you something then? Honest opinion. Be very honest with me. Right.

[Emma Barnett]

You don't seem capable of anything.

[Jamie]

Yeah, I don't think you're that honest. So here we go. So I. I'm as you. I'm a big enthusiast. I'm a very big optimist. Right. I'm high energy.

[Emma Barnett]

I know. I really like the energy.

[Jamie]

Okay.

[Emma Barnett]

I'm like, marinate in you. Can I. Is there a Jamie marinate?

[Jamie]

You could like Sydney swinging her bath water. You can get mine. But when my wife gave birth and then she was on maternity leave and we had Christmas and all these different things, I would, as I do post social media things. I'd post social media.

[Emma Barnett]

The table looked phenomenal.

[Jamie]

Oh, so you've seen this?

[Emma Barnett]

Okay, the table. Look. Okay, here we go.

[Jamie]

I want to know your honest opinion.

[Emma Barnett]

I had such a good table and it was Nowhere near.

[Jamie]

Okay, so I want to hear your honest opinion.

[Emma Barnett]

Where does the tablecloth from anyway? That's a separate conversation.

[Jamie]

So I want to hear your honest opinion. So I would write something like pov when your wife is smashing Christmas. Smashing Christmas. And postpartum. And then I did another one where she hosted a red carpet at the BAFTA film. And I did another one where I said, when Your wife is 11 weeks postpartum and hosting an award. And her biggest fear was this. She's built up her career, especially coming from reality tv. She's built it up.

[Emma Barnett]

Right.

[Jamie]

In an incredible way. And she's worried that as soon as she had a baby, it was all gonna go. So when an opportunity comes up, she's like, well, I have to do it because otherwise it's gonna go. And that's what she's.

[Emma Barnett]

And that just came up.

[Jamie]

Yeah. But I champion however you get.

[Emma Barnett]

You got a bit of shit, didn't you?

[Jamie]

Yeah. So what is your opinion on that?

[Emma Barnett]

Did you get a whole dumper truck?

[Jamie]

I like it, though. I don't. I sort of.

[Emma Barnett]

Are you actually okay with it?

[Jamie]

Yes, you are. Oh, my God.

[Emma Barnett]

So many people are not.

[Jamie]

Oh, it's quite hard to touch the side of me.

[Emma Barnett]

I don't know what's wrong with you.

[Jamie]

I don't know. Boarding school. I don't.

[Emma Barnett]

Fuck. I need to go to boarding school.

[Jamie]

Yeah, you do.

[Emma Barnett]

At 41, as the estrogen leaves my body, I need a dose. This is maybe what's been wrong. We should send all perimenopausal women to the schools that teach you how not to feel.

[Jamie]

But my weird thing is this is that if I think what I'm doing is right.

[Emma Barnett]

Yes.

[Jamie]

Then I don't care what you're.

[Emma Barnett]

Then you're okay.

[Jamie]

Then I'm okay. If someone says something that. If someone said to me, I don't know. I don't know what it would be, but something that. I would be on the edge. I would then get worried. I'm a big people pleaser. I want people to like me. I like people liking me and I like making people feel happy. But if I do something that I think is right, I don't really care what other people think.

[Emma Barnett]

We're very similar and different because I as a woman. Have you ever heard of the thing called the dominance penalty?

[Jamie]

No. I can't wait.

[Emma Barnett]

So you can be in a meeting as a woman and a man, and I could say the same thing as you said it. Maybe it's something like, we have to change as a business yes, Jamie, great point, Emma. What a bitch. You have to develop a talent as a woman in the working world, certainly and sometimes socially for being disliked, even if you don't want to be. So I also want people of course to engage with me and hopefully like me. But I can't guarantee that. So maybe I. I hope they could respect me. Okay. Ah, you know, that would be a good second. But the line of work I'm in, you can only imagine the types of messages at times that I also receive, whether I've done a big interview with a prime minister or the man trying to be. And I, you know, something went wrong in that interview and now they blame me for the state of the country, you know, whatever the situation is. So I was interested how you feel.

[Jamie]

Did you. Did they affect you?

[Emma Barnett]

Well, I. To your point where we're similar is I have come to the position and I've had to learn this though. Cause it's not something you're born with. We weren't also born in an era where we are a similar age where social media was the norm and anyone could contact you. And it's incredible that in some ways anyone can contact you. But it also has completely no context to it is. My view is those who matter know and those who don't don't. And I live by that.

[Jamie]

That is great.

[Emma Barnett]

And so it sounds like you are. I'm stealing that, but it sounds like you are as well.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Emma Barnett]

Sorry to come back to your question,

[Jamie]

but I really care what my friends think and what my family thinks.

[Emma Barnett]

People who matter and they know.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Emma Barnett]

And then therefore they'll know. So to your question about your wife, which you know, I'm so. I'm all here for not least. Cause the table was so gorgeous and I really need to know how she did it. But would that I'm a Hanukkah Christmas Jew. Okay. I love Hanukkah. And then we've got to go straight into Christmas. And my Christmas game just needs to get a little bit better. Sorry, Rabbi, but I love Christmas. Anyway. The thing is about that is I think your optimism is swimming in a sea of increasing cynicism that is the Internet. So I think what comes to you as support or this is beautiful. Or look at this cheerleading. You'd be a lovely cheerleader. A great cheerleader is going to come across as smug bragging.

[Jamie]

That's what you think.

[Emma Barnett]

No. No to those people.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Emma Barnett]

So I've never told this story before, but I very rarely reply to people who send me abuse. Of course. And A lot of them are men, so it's quite scary. And you know, it can be very sexist, very sexual and at times anti Semitic. So, you know, that's a really nice combination. Not gonna be like slipping into your DMs, right?

[Jamie]

It's a perfect combination.

[Emma Barnett]

Beautiful. It's beautiful. But there was a woman who wrote to me not long after I'd had a baby and I went cool night out to the British Museum and it was an opening, it was a reception. And I had honestly the schlockiest outfit, like a black polar neck, black stretchy jeans, but I had a cool blazer and it's an old one from. And I love it. And I'd had my hair done and done for ages. Had some shades on, you know, the look, you know, you look good. But like, I looked fine. It wasn't like banging. Okay. It was. Anyway, I just did a little selfie on Instagram and this woman messages me. You bitch. You smug. Think of all those women who can't afford to dress up, have their hair done and have any support so they can go out a few weeks after their baby's been born. Jamie. I was wearing basically the Steve Jobs outfit, but with a blazer. I don't think I smelt great, but my hair was good, I'll admit it. Barnet by name, barnet by nature, it's my thing, but like, it's a 35 pound hair dry, blow dry situation. Anyway, I was so like, no, you don't get to shit on my parade here. Fair enough. If I've interviewed Corbyn or Boris Johnson and you don't like that. But no. So I wrote back to her privately. I never do things publicly. I just said my blazer was about £45 five years ago from Zara. My outfit is the one I've worn all day and breastfed in. I'm going to the British Museum to see the opening of something Egyptian and I'm trying to have a nice night. You didn't need to send me that. It's really upset me. She wrote back. Or maybe I didn't say. I said it's hurt me. She wrote back. I'm so appalled at how I wrote to you. I've shown my daughter what I sent to you. I'm so sorry. And she's just made me fulsomely apologize and realize how awful it was, especially to a new mum. My daughter's going through IVF and it's not working and I just feel really jealous that you've managed to have a Child, I think the people who shit on you, not all of them, it's often about them.

[Jamie]

That's really interesting because I do think that when people are. There's that whole thing that when people are saying online comments which are terrible, it's because they're reflecting what's happening in their own lives, right? That's why they're doing it.

[Emma Barnett]

Margaret Atwood once said, the great writer who I've loved interviewing over the years, context is all. The context of you posting that. Somebody who didn't like the post, for instance, may have only seen that post. They don't know that you're an optimistic kind of cheerleading kind of guy. They might just think he's got an amazing house, you know what I mean? It might just be basically the old green eyed thing as well. They need context. You need context. We all need context. So listen, I did a job 12 weeks after the birth of our first child. One job. And I was very impressed. A man asked me to come and stand in for Andrew Maher on BBC one to host his Sunday morning political interviews program. He very rarely was ever off and I had been in the running for if there was ever an opening to stand in before I'd had a baby. And to his credit, this guy remembered that. And even though I just had a baby, still offered it to me. And I was like, I'm gonna do it cause I don't know when this will come around again. And I was breast pumping like just before. I hadn't read the news for two months, three months, it was the height of Brexit stuff. I was breastfeeding as I went on, I was breastfeeding as I came off.

[Jamie]

Jesus.

[Emma Barnett]

And then I was back home, you know, four hours later. And a few days later I had the surreal but amazing experience of watching the people on Gogglebox watch me do it, which was hilarious. They were like, who's this Holly Willoughby type on Andrew Marr? And then they were like, fuck, she's like a lion. Oh, she's just killed him, you know. And I was like, this is amazing, this is great, this is amazing. But it's really. To put those who criticized your wife or you around the 11 week red carpet thing, she will have had. I don't wanna speak for your wife. And the Andrew Ma and the BAFTA thing, you know, whatever it was, they're all different, but they're not. In some ways when you've had a baby, it's like your skin has come off. And she will have felt so many different things doing that completely.

[Jamie]

And that's what. That's the only thing that ever gets my backup right is that I don't care. People going after me, whatever, but it's someone. You don't know the backstory of what my wife has been through, through the pregnancy and everything like that, but yet you can come and I don't care. But it's when people go for someone else and they didn't really go for her, but I can'. Stand that.

[Emma Barnett]

Well, in America, 11 weeks postpartum, you'd be back running.

[Jamie]

You'd be back doing the.

[Emma Barnett]

Your law firm or whatever, your shop, you know, that's the whole thing.

[Jamie]

In your university days, did you ever have to break up with anyone?

[Emma Barnett]

I think the only major breakup we sort of did with each other. The one that I would classify as that we were in a friendship group and we're still friends, actually. And then quite quickly, I met my husband, really in the third year. And so all the previous experiences were not really sort of serious relationships.

[Jamie]

Why was your husband different?

[Emma Barnett]

Oh, here we go. It was proper slam dunk. It was incredible. It really, really was. It really, really was. And I am not that woman. And I became that woman or that person. A friend introduced us. She's very, very funny. Lovely woman. I studied politics with her and I had just become the president of the student theatre. And I was so excited. But I go to this meeting. Jamie, spreadsheets are not my thing.

[Jamie]

Okay?

[Emma Barnett]

I think, you know, I've got other strengths. And I get to the meeting and it's very clear, kind of commensurate with the country. The arts budget's being cut. So my first meeting, and I'm at the student union, whatever. And I was, what? And I'm thinking, how are we gonna send plays to Edinburgh? And all these crazy ambitious things you can do at a student theatre. And my friend taps me on the shoulder and she's sitting next to Jeremy and she goes, jeremy knows all about this shit. He knows all about budget. He's really good at all of that. He's to do with the Week One exec, or whatever it was called. He's single and he's really fit. That's literally, like in front of us both. Have I looked at him and I am told I'm much. I was. I had a slightly. It was never that strong, but I believe him that I had a slightly stronger northern accent than being from Manchester. And I looked him up and down, apparently. I don't really remember that bit. And I said, okay. And I like Came around to him or got him to come around to me and apparently I asked for his number within seconds Again, I don't really remember that bit but he was so confident, well he was going to help me. So there was that. But then I was like, yeah, he is and I want to go to this particular club that night. He ran a club night at uni so seemed to be able to get tickets to things.

[Jamie]

I see he's quite cool as well.

[Emma Barnett]

And I was like, ok. And then that was the beginning. I mean it wasn't the first proper date date that happened about three months later in London but that was the start. And when I went on that proper date in London, he took me out in Covent Garden and he was panicking. It was a Sunday night. And what'd you do then? Sort of 21 years ago on a Sunday night. It wasn't quite a seven day a week operation. London in the same way perhaps as it is now or any city. So he took me to Ronnie Scott's.

[Jamie]

Love Ronnie Scott's and live jazz.

[Emma Barnett]

Yeah, I mean he is a musician, not as his job but he's beautiful percussionist. So it was a cool move, right?

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Emma Barnett]

I texted a friend from the toilet and said he, the guy I'm going to marry. I'm a really, not always but often very decisive person.

[Jamie]

I can feel that.

[Emma Barnett]

And I couldn't believe though because, you know, people had said to me for years, you'll know when you know. I was only 21 at the time but I did know and I thought, wow, that's a bit early. It's a bit early.

[Jamie]

It is a bit early.

[Emma Barnett]

It's a bit early.

[Jamie]

It's a bit early.

[Emma Barnett]

It's a bit early.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it's a little bit early. It's a little bit early.

[Emma Barnett]

He did not feel that. I just want to put for the record. But you said that he took him a bit longer for sure. So I don't wanna make out we were in this kind of like filmic moment. I think it took a few months.

[Jamie]

What was it for someone listening now when they're, when they are trying to find their person. Right. Cause trying to. I think when we were younger it was much not easier but there was a lot less complications finding your person. Right. There were no real dating apps and social media wasn't a big thing.

[Emma Barnett]

You didn't have to sell yourself.

[Jamie]

You didn't have to sell yourself. There weren't other options. The grass wasn't greener. You met someone that you fancied that you liked that you found attractive. It was like, whoa, this is the first person I found. Now you go, now you've gone to Instagram and there's a thousand people that you find attractive and interesting. All these different things. So it's a lot harder. So what were those things that really attracted you to Jeremy?

[Emma Barnett]

I loved his face. That's a great start.

[Jamie]

Yeah, that's a good start.

[Emma Barnett]

I still feel I could look at that face forever. We were never running out of anything to say to each other. There was a constant back and forth. There was a just a connection conversationally. And I hadn't till that point met anyone who went toe to toe with me on everything. And I don't mean in. That's the free. I don't mean debating. I mean thoughts, ideas, observations about the world. Just someone I never wanted the conversation to end with. And I still do his head in. Like, we'll go to bed and we will have been speaking, certainly from when the children have gone to sleep. Cause they don't let you talk. You'll find this when your baby gets older. They literally say, stop talking and conversation block. But once we're allowed to talk to each other, we may have been speaking for two hours of an evening. And then we'll go to bed and I'll go off pillow. Even if I've got a 3am alarm or whatever it is for the next day. I'll be like, can we talk? He's like, emma, no, we can't talk anymore. How can you have anything else to say? But I store stuff up to tell him throughout the day.

[Jamie]

And that stimulation is what connects us, right? Like having that. I think conversation is everything. I remember when I met Sophie and you know, I did a television show called Made in Chelsea, which you've seen, right?

[Emma Barnett]

I may have admitted to you that I haven't.

[Jamie]

It's a reality show.

[Emma Barnett]

I heard it did quite well.

[Jamie]

It did quite well. It's a reality show about being posh that'll make you love it more. But I made a deal with myself that I wouldn't fall in love on the show. And what I would do is, this was a show, this was entertainment, this was fun, this was exciting. But it's a show so you have to almost like go in and a certain. You go in and you have a certain mentality because you would have to. Lots of people on that were my friends before, so I was very good friends with them. But the other people I never really tried to get close to because it meant that if you had to have tricky conversations to make entertainment. You were able to do it because there was a barrier. This is slightly subconscious, right? A lot of like, yeah, but coming out of it, I psychologically realize that now that's what I would do. But I would do it subconscious, right? Which is a weird thing. And I think I learned that from boarding school. Anyway, with my wife, when she came on, it was like a whole different thing. And I remember when I started, we started dating. We dated privately and quietly. We didn't tell anyone because I didn't want the show to know. I remember my mum phoning me up and saying, who are you dating? I said, I've met this person, it's different. And she went, oh, here we go. And I went, no, it's different. And it was the same thing, you know, when you know. And I. And it's. I did know. It was so weird and I don't understand. I just was different. She stimulated me. I found her. I loved her face, as you said. I just loved everything about her. And I remember thinking I could go and sit in a pub in the middle of nowhere, just playing Django with her and it'd make me happy and I had to be stimulated all the time.

[Emma Barnett]

Django's a great game as well, the best. But it's interesting, isn't it? Like, I've done a couple of interviews recently on my podcast, Ready to Talk and it's amazing that that exists, that if, you know, you know, and then what that might have to see you through. And I've interviewed two women in different scenarios who have ended up basically being their husband's carer in the end of their 30s, early 40s. And you know, if you think about what gets you together, yes, that connection and all of that, but it's also quite base. You fancy them, you know, and that doesn't mean, as we know with divorce rates what they are. That doesn't mean it will carry you through everything. You know, life is going to deal to you. What it's going to deal to you. So it is kind of amazing what when those relationships do last and they get tested to levels you could never imagine. And you take it right back to we just had a great snog in a club and from there on I was in or we met on a crazy TV reality TV style show and that was it. And now we have a baby. The other thing my husband and I did, which was probably ill advised timing wise, but has been amazing, is we set up a business together. One of the things that you were interviewed about that I felt very interested by and wanted to ask you about was, you know, it's amazing to build a business. So we have a business called Colour your Streets, which is amazing. We're mapping the whole of the UK and then the world in coloring books, so local coloring books of neighborhood cities and towns. And we have more than 200 in the UK. We've also done big cultural institutions like museums and Buckingham palace and whatnot. But you were interviewed and I remember reading, I think it was in the Times, and you talked about, while entrepreneurship is glamorized, you also are your own boss and you can never stop. And I find, you know, I think it's got huge benefits. But how do you deal with the fact that, because we're. I'm now living and breathing this, we have our own business. It's basically like our third child. It's not. But, you know, it all started in our home. Now it's not all in our home, thank God. Our daughter's bedroom's no longer a stock room. Especially now you're a dad. How are you finding that? Have you got any advice?

[Jamie]

Because you're much further along and it's a great question. So I. I look at it like this. I think there's a. There's a narrative that's happening, right, that you should be an entrepreneur, you should start a business, go. You shouldn't be part of this matrix. Go and start a business, be your own boss. And I agree with that in lots of ways. However, be careful what you wish for, because I think a lot of people see it as a. They see the end goal, so they see the, I don't know, Steve Jobs, or they see these people where they think, oh, I'm going to make lots of money. And so that's what their vision is. I'm going to make lots of money and be my own boss. Being your own boss is one of the hardest things I think I've ever done. It is so hard because you have to manage people. You have to make sure their lives are okay. You're responsible over them. You have to make sure the product, whatever you're doing, is still going. It's 24 7, it never stops. So balancing it is really, really, really hard. And once you start it, you can't turn it off. You have to keep going. And that's the hard thing. Then you mix in doing it with your partner as well, which I do with my wife. We have a podcast, we have a business where we media business jampot together. And that comes with its complications as well.

[Emma Barnett]

Any advice?

[Jamie]

You gotta love it, what you do because you have to turn up every single day.

[Emma Barnett]

We both said we like colouring it.

[Jamie]

You like coloring, so it's great. I think. Remember, it's just coloring in books. Sometimes we get so obsessed with it that we think it's the be all and end all. And actually we're just making content. You're just doing kind of. I'm just selling sweets.

[Emma Barnett]

Yeah. You gotta put it in perspective.

[Jamie]

You gotta put it in perspective. And sometimes it's very hard to do that. And communication is everything. Everything. I mean that was sort of a half hearted. But those are the key things, I think.

[Emma Barnett]

And I think your message though around, well, I would say with a front row seat now to, you know, a proper business.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Emma Barnett]

Like we're not just a startup anymore, you know. This is a living, breathing organism.

[Jamie]

It doesn't get easier, by the way. It probably gets harder.

[Emma Barnett]

Right? Okay.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Get ready.

[Emma Barnett]

I'll be speeding up.

[Jamie]

It doesn't get easier.

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[Jamie]

Emma. Thank you.

[Emma Barnett]

Thank you.

[Jamie]

Are you kidding me? I want everyone to go and listen to your podcast. Ready to talk. We're gonna leave a link in the show description. Go and check out your coloring books as well. Color your streets that you do with youh Husband. It's incredible. And just with that it's exciting. But ooh, it wears you down to get ready.

[Emma Barnett]

Hold on.

[Jamie]

But it's great. It's the best thing in the world.

[Emma Barnett]

I Do need in exchange the entire details of your Christmas table. Okay?

[Jamie]

You have to ask my wife.

[Emma Barnett]

Okay, fine. But you know, at some point I need to up my game.

[Jamie]

She's amazing, honestly, she's gonna. Emma. Thank you. Listen, we'd like to end our conversation with eight quick fire questions.

[Emma Barnett]

Oh, gosh. Okay.

[Jamie]

Are you ready?

[Emma Barnett]

I am.

[Jamie]

What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up?

[Emma Barnett]

This too shall pass.

[Jamie]

It's one of my favourites. I love that. Best compliment anyone's ever given you.

[Emma Barnett]

That was a great snog.

[Jamie]

That is good. What scares you most about yourself?

[Emma Barnett]

Oh, my body. The pain.

[Jamie]

When was the last time you cried?

[Emma Barnett]

About four hours ago. I just fighting the end of a virus and I'm so frustrated by being poorly.

[Jamie]

And so you cry because of that?

[Emma Barnett]

Just sheer frustration.

[Jamie]

What's something you can't let go of?

[Emma Barnett]

I do this thing when I can't sleep. I walk round mentally the every room of my childhood home which we don't have anymore. So I miss it.

[Jamie]

What's your guilty pleasure?

[Emma Barnett]

Chippy chips. Like fat ones, Salt and vinegar.

[Jamie]

Really fat ones? Salt and vinegar? Yeah. More, more. Lots of vinegar.

[Emma Barnett]

A lot of vinegar. I am northern.

[Jamie]

And you don't have any curry sauce?

[Emma Barnett]

No, but I do quite like a bit of curry sauce. But on the side I have to have my food and constituent parts. It's quite strange.

[Jamie]

What turns you off?

[Emma Barnett]

I don't like iron filings. Do you remember at school if they were magnetized and they look like tiny hairs?

[Jamie]

Sorry, that is so niche. That's what, that's it. That turns you off.

[Emma Barnett]

Do you know what? As a journalist, specificity is golden.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it's amazing. The details is the best. What turns you on?

[Emma Barnett]

A wonderful whiskey or a vodka martini and a royal roaring fire.

[Jamie]

Do you have vermouth in your. If you have. Do you have a martini or anything like that?

[Emma Barnett]

Yeah, vodka martini.

[Jamie]

And you like vermouth in it?

[Emma Barnett]

Yes. And an olive. Really?

[Jamie]

You have the olive? Do you eat the olive or do you just leave it and decorate? You eat the olive at the end or beginning?

[Emma Barnett]

The beginning.

[Jamie]

That's the detail. What do you like most about yourself?

[Emma Barnett]

I like that I want to have joy, you know, I like trying to live a good life.

[Jamie]

Emma Barnett, thank you so much. You are great company. You're the best. I really appreciate it.

[Emma Barnett]

Thank you.

[Jamie]

Geigo presents a 30 second podcast between your podcast.

[Emma Barnett]

Today's story is shared by one of our listeners.

[Jamie]

It's called Betrayed by Bill.

[Emma Barnett]

It was in that moment I caught

[Jamie]

who was staring back at me in betrayal.

[Emma Barnett]

Or more like what, my insurance bill.

[Jamie]

With trembling hands, I grabbed my phone and switched to geico, saving about $900 in the process and never to be betrayed again. Now that was bloody riveting.

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[Jamie]

It feels good to Geico.

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