FEARNE COTTON: How I Set Boundaries & Stopped Being a People Pleaser

Summary

Podcast Summary: Great Company with Jamie Laing

Episode: FEARNE COTTON: How I Set Boundaries & Stopped Being a People Pleaser

Date: March 20, 2026
Guest: Fearne Cotton

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Episode Overview

This inspiring conversation between Jamie Laing and broadcaster Fearne Cotton drills deep into Fearne’s personal journey of self-worth, anxiety, overcoming people-pleasing tendencies, and setting boundaries. The episode explores the pressures of the entertainment industry, motherhood, mental health struggles, and the importance of authenticity—anchored in Fearne's new book, “Likable: How I Broke Free from the Need to Please.” The tone is open, vulnerable, and honest, with both Jamie and Fearne sharing personal anecdotes, reflecting on identity, parenting, career, and what it means to truly be yourself.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Navigating Parenting & Life Changes

• Realities of Parenting:

  • Both share the exhaustion and relentless nature of parenting at different stages.
  • [05:55] Fearne: “It does get easier in ways...but there’s other things that replace the shitty bums. And sleep can still sometimes be bad if they're ill or one of them's had a nightmare.”
  • [06:50] Fearne is enjoying her children growing up—talks about boxing with her son Rex and chatting skincare with daughter Honey.

• Being a ‘Cool Mum’:

  • [07:28] Fearne: “No. Rex says ‘cringe’ to me five, six times a day. It's constant cringe.”
  • She discusses the fine line between wanting to be liked by her kids and enforcing necessary boundaries.

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Career, Public Scrutiny, and Identity

• Early Fame and Pressure to Be Liked:

  • [00:13] Fearne: “Being likable...was survival, being likable, because if I wasn't likable, I didn't have a job.”
  • [24:50]: The pressure to be liked became a distortion—“not just something that propped up my self worth...It was survival.”
  • Discusses the impact of fame from an early age, especially with no social media then, and the subsequent challenges that came as she transitioned to adulthood in the public eye.

• Transition from Early Success to Struggle:

  • Vivid stories of interviewing icons (Eminem, Amy Winehouse, royal princes) but also how the excitement faded as she became more accustomed to fame.
  • [12:32] Fearne: “Getting the Disney Club job is still the greatest moment of my career...I felt like I had made it. And I've never had that feeling since.”

• Interviewing Skills & Growth:

  • Fearne admits she’s only recently become comfortable praising her own skill as an interviewer:
    • [12:53] “No. God, no. And I'm probably only at an age now where I feel happy sitting here and going, yeah, I am. I am good at it.”
  • More nervous about being interviewed than interviewing others.

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Mental Health: Anxiety, Depression, and Recovery

• Personal Low Point:

  • [28:25] Fearne discusses a period of being “publicly disliked,” which crushed her and caused deep depression and anxiety.
    • [28:48] “I was incredibly depressed for a long time and on medication ... and then subsequently went through a big, big patch of anxiety and panic after that. That was...debilitating.”
  • Detailed account of panic attacks, inability to do live TV or drive, and how this persisted for nearly a decade.
    • [29:59] “I couldn't do live TV...I couldn't drive a car on the motorway...It all just hit me in one big lump and it was utterly horrendous.”

• Turning Point & Healing:

  • Last four years have been transformative for Fearne, confronting anxiety head-on.
    • [32:29] “I'm feeling mentally the best I have...not to say I don't have really shit days, because I do...But I'm not where I was.”

• Importance of Speaking Out:

  • Jamie emphasizes how Fearne’s openness helps others not feel alone in their struggles.
    • [32:21] Jamie: “It’s so important for someone like you to talk about it. Because when you're in that place, you feel like there's no end.”

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The Authentic Self vs. People Pleasing

• Breaking Free from the Need to Please:

  • Fearne’s big lesson during her book writing:
    • [36:20] “What even does it mean to be likable? I've landed on it's compliance...you manipulate who you are to fit into surroundings...You're not actually being liked at all.”
  • Practicing boundaries by saying no and sitting with the discomfort of disappointing people.
    • [37:34] “It’s practicing saying, ‘Can I think about that?’...and then saying, ‘I can't do that for you.’”
  • Jamie relates it to society’s fear of not being liked, especially among men, and how it’s a deep-seated, almost universal fear.

• The Pitfall of Chasing Coolness & External Validation:

  • Anecdotes of copying cool people in youth, social media comparison, and how external changes never deliver lasting fulfillment.
    • [42:13] Fearne: “Being cool really, in a way, is kind of being yourself...unapologetically yourself.”

• The Ongoing Work of Self-Acceptance:

  • Fearne underscores that becoming authentic is a continual process, not a one-off victory.

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Navigating Big Life Changes, Endings, and Burnout

• Quitting and Moving On:

  • On knowing when to end things—a job, a project, a relationship—Fearne says:
    • [51:22] “...life is so short and it's such a banal cliche, but I stand by it. I'm just desperate to keep learning and growing and finding new parts of myself, I guess.”
  • Importance of stepping away and making space for others (e.g., when Clara Amfo took over her Radio 1 show).

• Burnout & Health Scares:

  • Details a period where stress and “martyr syndrome” led to a health scare (benign tumor, but a wake-up call):
    • [48:03] Fearne: “...my motto almost became, I'll just fucking do it. Like, don't you, don't anyone do anything. I'll do everything.”

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Self-Worth, Pride, and Embracing Change

• Feeling Proud:
  • Fearne only recently allowed herself to feel proud—especially of balancing career and parenting for a day.
    • [55:55] “I think I'm proud of myself today. And I would never normally say that. And it's not about what I've achieved. It's about have I coped? How have I coped?”
  • Pride in her new book’s honesty:
    • [57:17] Jamie: “And you should be so proud of your new book.”
    • [57:17] Fearne: “I am. Do you know, I am proud of it because it's the most honest thing I've ever written.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Anxiety & Recovery:

  • “I had diluted myself down to a version of me that was just beige enough to get by. So no one gave me shit. It absolutely crushed me.” – Fearne ([00:00], [35:26])
  • “Being likable...was survival, being likable, because if I wasn't likable, I didn't have a job.” – Fearne ([00:13], [24:50])
  • “Now I have to really check myself and go, it doesn’t matter. Like you can hold your own. You've done your job for a very long time.”—Fearne ([14:13])

• On Setting Boundaries & Self-Respect:

  • “I would almost be saying yes before someone had finished asking me to do something for them. And inside I'm going, I don't want to do that...And then maybe coming back and just saying, do you know what? At the moment, I'm so overwhelmed. I can't do that for you.” — Fearne ([37:34])
  • On walking out of dinners when she’s done: “Yeah, I've had a great time, but I'm off.” ([34:37])

• On Authenticity:

  • “I'm trying to fully immerse myself in a life where I am me as much as I can possibly be. And if you like me for that, that's a bonus. If you don't...at least you don't like me for being exactly who I actually am.” – Fearne ([36:20])

• On Measuring Success:

  • “If Ant and Dec can sit there saying, we don't feel we've made it, what hope is there for any of us? They are the top of the tree. They don't feel they've made it because there's always another rung of the ladder.” – Fearne ([43:34])

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Important Timestamps

• [00:00] – Fearne opens up about diluting herself to avoid criticism
• [05:23] – Parenting talk and the endlessness of parental exhaustion
• [12:32] – Greatest moment: landing Disney Club as a teen
• [14:13] – Fearne discusses discomfort being interviewed
• [28:25]/[28:48] – Rock bottom, depression, and anxiety crisis
• [32:29] – Fearne describes her progress and better mental health
• [35:26] – Admits to years of “beige” self to stay likable
• [36:20] – Defining likability vs. authenticity
• [37:34] – Setting boundaries and learning to say no
• [42:13] – “Being cool is being yourself”
• [48:03] – Health scare and the consequences of martyrdom
• [51:22] – Perspective on ending things and embracing change
• [55:55] – Pride in balancing a full day as a working parent
• [57:17] – Pride in her book’s honesty
• [58:29] – Quickfire round: humor and vulnerability on display

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Quickfire Round Highlights

• What scares you most about yourself?
  • “My impatience. Because I can be very urgent about things and it's not always good.” ([58:45])
• Last time you cried?
  • “I just watched the Ballad of Wallace Island...I have not wept like that...” ([58:55])
• Guilty pleasure?
  • “Probably a midday bath or...I love chocolate.” ([59:55])
• Turns you on?
  • “Genuine support and happiness for other people's success.” ([60:17])
• Celebrity crush (then and now)?
  • “Taylor Hanson growing up...Now I still feel like I'm so out of popular culture...” ([60:57])

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a raw, empowering exploration of what it really means to be “likable,” the cost of people pleasing, and how true confidence is found in authenticity and self-acceptance. Fearne Cotton’s candid insights about anxiety, burnout, and stepping outside social expectations will resonate deeply with anyone navigating self-worth, ambition, and the pressure to please in their own life.

Recommended for: Anyone battling anxiety, people-pleasing, or who longs for a more authentic, joyful way of living.

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Related Links:

• Fearne Cotton’s book: Likable: How I Broke Free from the Need to Please
• Fearne’s “Happy Place” podcast
• Jamie Laing’s previous episodes

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“You can’t change everything about who you are, but you can always change how you treat yourself.” – Fearne Cotton ([46:59])

Transcript

[Fern Cotton]

I had diluted myself down to a version of me that was just beige enough to get by. So no one gave me shit. It absolutely crushed me.

[Jamie Lang]

Being in the entertainment business, it's all

[Fern Cotton]

about being liked, but it was survival, being likable, because if I wasn't likable, I didn't have a job. The audience turn against you, you are screwed. And I was incredibly depressed for a long time and on medication just to like, you know, still going to Radio 1 every day and having to deal with all of it, it all just hit me in one big lump and it was utterly horrendous. Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and I'm in great company.

[Jamie Lang]

A round of applause for Fern Cotton, everybody. And now here's Fern Cotton. I heard that you had a boyfriend once who said you could never get any tattoos. And so to rebel, you got a tattoo. Is this right?

[Fern Cotton]

Do you want to see it? Fucking massive. That went down really badly.

[Jamie Lang]

You started TV at 15?

[Fern Cotton]

Yes, very lucky. I have a job that I love and I've been doing it for a very long time, but it can be absolutely horrific and two things can be true at the same time. And then sort of subsequently went for a big, big patch of anxiety and panic after that. That was, you know, debilitating.

[Jamie Lang]

It was suddenly out of nowhere.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah, I couldn't do live tv. I had to stop doing live radio. I couldn't drive a car on the motorway or an A road because the speed would give me a panic attack. But the last four years I have tackled all of it head on.

[Jamie Lang]

How do you do that?

[Fern Cotton]

Okay, so I can't believe I'm saying this.

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[Jamie Lang]

Guys, welcome back to another episode of Great Company. Firstly, thank you so much for coming back. Really appreciate it. Today's episode is with a great friend of mine, Fern Cotton. And weirdly, Fern and I and a couple of our friends, we go for dinners like every other month to chat about life and everything. So having this podcast here is like one of our dinners. We chat about parenting, the fact that I become a new dad. That is kind of really interesting for me. We also talk about how Fearne is stopping being a people pleaser and we also talk about how she experienced panic attacks and anxiety and how she's overcome that. Today's episode goes all over the place and I can't wait for you to listen to it. Now before we start again, if I can ask you just one thing, which is subscribe to our show. I know I keep asking you every single week, but it does us wonders and it means we can keep making the show better and better for you each week. So join the community and click. Subscribe if you can. Okay, here we go. Enjoy this amazing episode of Great Company with Fern Cotton. Having kids is exhausting. That's how. I'm gonna.

[Fern Cotton]

Understatement.

[Jamie Lang]

That's how I'm gonna go. Straight in there with that.

[Fern Cotton]

Straight in.

[Jamie Lang]

Fern. It's crazy.

[Fern Cotton]

I know. And do you know what? We. Obviously we had dinner not long before Siggy was born.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Fern Cotton]

And you can't do the thing of saying to a mate, oh, my God, watch out. Like, the tiredness is bleak. You can't. You just gotta. You experience it as you do and you. And you learn on the job, but it's unreal.

[Jamie Lang]

But you've already. You've been there, You've experienced it. You're still in it. You've got teenagers and. Doesn't end. It never ends.

[Fern Cotton]

No. And it sort. It does get easier in ways. You know, I'm not sort of wiping shitty asses anymore. But.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, that's a good thing.

[Fern Cotton]

You are dealing with other stuff. Like, get off your phone, get off the PlayStation. You know, it's. There's other things that replace the shitty bums. And sleep can still sometimes be bad if they're ill or one of them's had a nightmare. You know, my daughter will still get in the bed with me here and there. So. Yeah. Which is gorgeous. But this is like, you're in this for at least 18 years, Jamie Lang. Okay. Like, this is crazy. It's just endless.

[Jamie Lang]

I used to look at people who had kids and I used to think, poor you.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah. But also used to think, like, it can't be that hard.

[Jamie Lang]

It can't be that hard.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah. Like, what do you do all day?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. Like, come on. And then when you have kids, there is like this. Your. Your brain opens up in a. In a weird kind of way. And the whole idea of life changes everything. Everything changes everything.

[Fern Cotton]

And I'm. I'm in a really nice bit of parenting. I'm really enjoying the ages that my kids are at now. Honey's 10. Rex turns 13 in a couple of weeks, which is wild.

[Jamie Lang]

Is it? Totally wild.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah. He's the same height as me. It's just like, what's. What's going on? Who's this huge man? But it's so nice because we're doing stuff together. Like, me and Rex started boxing together last week, which so fun. And you know, Honey is a classic 10 year old who wants to talk about makeup and skin care, which is crazy, which she's obviously not using. But we're having fun chats and it's just a whole new era that I'm entering that I'm loving.

[Jamie Lang]

Are you a cool mum?

[Fern Cotton]

No. Rex says cringe to me five, six times a day. It's constant cringe.

[Jamie Lang]

Is that tricky though, femme? Because especially this connects to your book.

[Babbel Advertiser]

Right?

[Jamie Lang]

Likable.

[Fern Cotton]

Yes.

[Jamie Lang]

Do you want your kids to like, like you and think you're cool or are you kind of calm in that space of going, I get it because they're my kids, I don't need to do that.

[Fern Cotton]

That's a really interesting crossover moment. You feel so differently about that subject matter with your kids because there's, there's points where they don't like you. Especially the bit I'm in with Rex now where you're just doing a lot of nagging for, you know, clean your teeth, put some deodorant on, have a shower. Because otherwise Rex would quite literally just game all day if I, if I let him. But that's part of my job. If I were just to be like, y, I'm so laid back and cool. You do what you want, man. You know, he would literally just be driving a fake car all day. So I have to implement some structure and some boundaries. So, yeah, I know there's times when I annoy him and, you know, and he probably just thinks, get the hell away from me. But it's essential that I've got some boundaries in place. So I'm sort of less worried about that.

[Jamie Lang]

I heard that you had a boyfriend once who said you could never get any tattoos. And so to rebel. You got a tattoo? Is this right?

[Fern Cotton]

Do you want to see it? It's fucking massive because I'm quite all or nothing. Not everything, but some things. So when this person was like, you shouldn't get any more tattoos, I went big. Okay, ready? It's this flower, as you can see, is pretty.

[Jamie Lang]

That's amazing.

[Fern Cotton]

So suffice to say that went down really badly.

[Jamie Lang]

Young Fern Cotton in Antoni dating. Was that a wild time?

[Fern Cotton]

Yes. Mainly because I could never understand at the time what is all of this about. But I was followed relentlessly by Pat at that point in my life, relentlessly. Like they boarded flights to LA to pat me at the other end. And no one paps me now. I'm far too boring and I'm very comfy with that.

[Jamie Lang]

Do you look back at, you know, Your early years and that period. Fondness. Like it? Love it. Do you miss it? What do you feel?

[Fern Cotton]

I look back at bits of it with pure delight because it was. I did some extraordinary things and things that I am so grateful to have had the opportunity to do, like the amount of traveling I did and interesting people that I met and people like Amy Winehouse. Who are these mythical creatures? And it's like I was so lucky. I got to interview her, I got to hang out with her, I got to see her perform. I feel so lucky that I got all of those opportunities. You know, Radio 1 especially gave me just so many brilliant chances to see the world's greatest musicians this close. Playing live in that live lounge. In that live lounge. I mean, they are some of the greatest moments of my life.

[Jamie Lang]

Like who? Like what people?

[Fern Cotton]

Did you have one that stands out, which I'll never forget. It was at Maida Vale and I was quite literally stood in a big studio with my producer, just us two and Eminem on his own, stood as far as you are away from me now, rapping in my face. And I'm just stood there going, how is this happening? Like, this shouldn't be happening. I'm just some twerp from the suburbs. What is going on? And. And you see the, the level of exception with someone of his caliber, really, I have never seen anything so slick in my life. In the rehearsal, he was swearing and cussing and we were like, oh my God, this is gonna. I'm gonna have to interrupt in mid live performance and stop it. And as soon as he went live, he self edited like I've never seen. And he was full of charisma, full of energy. He was. He is just it. And I. It's moments like that that I just feel so lucky to have experienced. But I think there's some real standup moments. Like my early 20s, I must have been like 23, 24. I got to do this quite long form interview, which was rare at the time because podcasting didn't exist. This is like 20 years ago with Prince William and Prince Harry. And we were all kind of the same age. So we kind of, you know, all stood there awkwardly in our twenties, making small talk. And it was a real out of body experience of just like, how have I ended up at Clarence House? This is madness. And I was so nervous in the interview. I remember I'd prepped for like months beforehand, learning this interview verbatim so I didn't have to look at my notes. I was just so studious about the whole thing. I'm sure if I look back, it'd be awful. But the opportunity itself felt so otherworldly at the time. And I think some of me misses that level of excitement because not that I'm, like, hanging out at Clarence House all the time, but you do become slightly more used to, oh, there's a really famous person I know.

[Jamie Lang]

Do you know what? I chatted to Katherine Ryan and she said to me something slightly depressing. She said when she went to her first comedy gig, when she started going on a bit of a tour, her tour manager said, this is gonna be your most exciting moment. Which is kind of upsetting. And that childlike energy.

[Fern Cotton]

There's innocence to it. There's innocence. I think getting the Disney Club job is still the greatest moment of my career. And that was the first day of it.

[Jamie Lang]

Was it really?

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah, the greatest day of my career, without a doubt. Because I just felt like in that moment, I felt like I had made it. And I've never had that feeling since.

[Jamie Lang]

The one thing you know you're good at is interviewing.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

You know, I've been on your podcast and it's just the way that you move through the narrative and you make someone feel comfortable and you make you ask great questions. Have you always been like that?

[Fern Cotton]

No. God, no. And I'm probably only at an age now where I feel happy sitting here and going, yeah, I am. I am good at it. I think we're all told, all of us, that we shouldn't say we're good at things. It's like, what a big head, whatever. But it's like, I've been interviewing people for 27ish, something years. You'd hope I'd be good at it after that long after doing something again and again, again and again. And I used to obviously be terrible at it. I think the ultimate goal when you're good at something is being able to enjoy it whilst you're doing it. And when you're not good at something without any judgment, because I was terrible back in the day, you're not enjoying it because you're just scrambling constantly and hoping that you get through it. And I think I'm at the point now where I love interviewing people. I, you know, I can still feel nervous. It's not like I'm just walking, like, yeah, I'm the best at this. Let's go. I'm not the best at it. I enjoy it and I love it. And I've honed a skill that enables me to. To let it flow and to be in it and not thinking about 8 million things or feeling insecure. But that took me a very, very long time.

[Jamie Lang]

Who do you feel nervous with?

[Fern Cotton]

Do you know what? I'm. I'm much more terrified being interviewed than I am interviewing people.

[Jamie Lang]

Really?

[Fern Cotton]

Absolutely.

[Jamie Lang]

So. Right. You don't see right now you feel a bit more uncomfortable than you would if you were doing it to me.

[Fern Cotton]

100%. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I like being in control. I'm driving seat, so I feel like

[Jamie Lang]

you are in control right now.

[Fern Cotton]

Good. My least favorite thing is what I've got to do later on this evening or this afternoon, which is journalists interviewing me. I feel that journalists are often, and this is a hangover from my old life, I think are superior because they probably went to Oxbridge and they're English graduates or whatever they've done. And I feel like they're looking down at me and I'm generalizing because there are some lovely journalists out there, but I'm generalizing here that they're looking down on me just like stupid twat off the telly. And, and that's the, that's my dynamic from the get go. So I used to be very eager and hello, how are you? Like, please like me. God, please like me. And now I have to really check myself and go, it doesn't matter. Like you can hold your own. You've done your job for a very long time. I have to talk to myself to get into that headspace. And I think. Cause I've had some pretty horrendous experiences over the years where journalists have either asked me questions that are deeply inappropriate, actually I talk about one of them in the book. And it was a very, very senior person in the world of newspapers back in the day, and this would never happen today, I don't think. And I was a young woman, probably in my early 20s, and I was taken up to a hotel suite with this guy. And I'm inexperienced and I certainly don't have the confidence. And I instantly feel like, like he is far superior to me. And that was the, the transaction. And he said to me something along the lines of, you know, what's your, like, kink in the bedroom? And I'm in my early 20s, I don't want to talk about sex. In my early 20s. I'd be much more comfortable now. I'm in my 40s, and it's something I don't feel like women should be ashamed to talk about. In my 20s, I was terrified to answer that question. And again, now, if I was Uncomfortable answering something, I'd say, I'm not. I don't want to answer that. Or, look, you know that that's not cool to say that, let's move on. But back then I did not have that confidence. And because I was sort of, oh, you know, like, trying to think of anything, he. He then said, oh, blah, blah, blah. A brilliant musician that I knew who was about the same age as me, she said it was wearing shoes in the bedroom or something. So I thought, oh, my God. She came up with an answer. She must have just felt really cool about saying it. I've got to say something. So I gave an answer. I have no idea what I said. Very uncomfortably. Felt sick about it, went home, dreamt about it, couldn't stop obsessing about it for weeks. Felt ashamed, foolish, like I'd been sort of coerced into this position I didn't want to be in. It was just horrific.

[Jamie Lang]

That journalist wouldn't ask a man the same question.

[Fern Cotton]

God, no, of course not.

[Jamie Lang]

Did you feel like you had to be even more likable and liked because you were a woman?

[Fern Cotton]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I think it's the same today. You know, if you're a CEO, a female CEO or female director, or a female anyone who has a level of authority in the workplace, we could still be called bossy, A, you know, we need our female authority to still actually be soft and gentle and nurturing, whereas men are seen as assertive and they have that position of authority and we listen. And I think that's still true today. I don't think that's changed at all. So I think that's the issue we've got, is we. You know, I'm pro. I'm the first generation in my lineage as a female to have a career. You know, my, my mum had four or five different jobs at any one time, from being a cleaner to delivering clothing packages and my grandma's didn't work. So I'm like, on. On one hand, I'm like, christ, I've got a responsibility here. I need to go out in the workplace and give it my all. And I can hear them cheering me on. But equally, the world still says, well, you better be loading the dishwasher while you're doing that, like, you better be doing the school run every day. So I don't think much has changed. But I think back then, you know, it was the era in the 90s of the lads mag and you had to be a kind of. If you wanted to go from kids TV to Adult tv, you needed to be a bit sexy and lose the pigtails. And that was definitely a pressure I think a lot of presenters in that era felt.

[Jamie Lang]

Because you started TV at 15.

[Fern Cotton]

Yes.

[Jamie Lang]

Your mum said, yeah, cool, go and do it.

[Fern Cotton]

Oh, yeah. My mom is, I mean, not laid back about everything, but she was pretty, she was kind of cool about most things. The rules were maybe lacking a bit, I would say, in some ways.

[Jamie Lang]

And she like, what could you do? What could you do?

[Fern Cotton]

I mean, we used to sort of like go out together on a school night, which now looking back is absurd.

[Jamie Lang]

Get out of here.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

You did.

[Fern Cotton]

Yes. Yeah, we used to, like, go to this golf club near where I lived and hang out and I would drink cider and on a Wednesday night, like, bizarre. But she was. My parents have always been. My parents, like working class people. They've worked so hard their whole lives and I think they saw that I had this great interest and passion in something and an opportunity. So they were like, go for it. Absolutely, go for it. We're behind you. And I've only realized now how much of a toll that probably, you know, took on them because, you know, my dad would have to, for instance, every time I was to miss a day of school, you have to go to the local town hall to get some sort of letter to say that I could miss school, to then, you know, go and go to the studio for the day and. And he was working long hours. He was a sign writer. So I think I just was like, yeah, I'm just living the dream and doing my thing. But for them, it was weird. And, you know, I'm sure they had concerns about me entering this weird industry and who they could trust and who they couldn't. And, you know, it's been just a wild roller coaster.

[Jamie Lang]

So would you allow Rex to go and do something like that?

[Fern Cotton]

If he was really adamant that that's. That's his path, that's what he wants to do? I would, but. But not without a lot of deep conversations about what it means. Not, not the job itself. Cause I think the job is like any job, you learn a skill, you get better at it over time. But I think the public facing bit, that's the bit where I would want to sit with him and say, you know, this is, this is full on and you need to be ready for it. And, and also some of it's going to be awful. It just is, like, some of it is going to be really hard. And, you know, are you, are you up for that? And I think I would worry a lot about that side of it, but I'm not going to stop my kids doing anything, because that's a hard thing.

[Jamie Lang]

Right?

[Fern Cotton]

You.

[Jamie Lang]

You kind of want to allow your kids to fall out the tree and hurt themselves, but also you want to teach them how to climb at the same time. So it's a weird balance that you have with them, isn't it?

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah. I think, especially if it is a job that you've done and you've made the mistakes, you don't want them to. To fall into the same sort of problems, but. But they need to. To learn. You know, like when we were kids, people give you advice and you're like, eye rolling, like, yeah, yeah. And then you. You make the mistake and you're like, oh, God, that was really not good, that was bad. And you. You sort of wish you had listened, but you've got to make the mistake yourself. So I don't know, I. I mean, we're not there yet with any of it, and I don't know how I would deal with. I would certainly make my priority ensuring that we would always have an open conversation about how hard it is to be in the public eye. And I used to be very trepidatious about saying that because obviously people can go, oh, fuck off. You know, like, you've got a great job. What have you got to moan about? But I'm now at an age and I guess a place like having just written this book, where two things can be true. Yes, I'm very lucky. I have a job that I love and I've been doing it for a very long time. And. But alongside that is the fact that it can be absolutely horrific. So I don't want to either lie and say, yeah, it's all great. I'm so privileged. I'm so lucky. Yes, part of my life is full of luck and opportunity and I'm so, so grateful for all of it. But equally, the tough side is really shit. And unless you've been in a press shitstorm or people have been slagging you off online or, you know, saying things about you and they don't know you, you've got no idea how that feels unless you've dealt with it en masse.

[Jamie Lang]

But how do you think growing up on screen right at such young age, how do you think that shaped your identity?

[Fern Cotton]

Probably badly, I think probably badly. I wouldn't change. I would change bits of it, but I. But I wouldn't change starting TV then, because I was able to learn a skill without social media involved, without any huge outside commentary. I just went to work, did the job, went home and learned each time I did it. So I was very lucky because, you know, if you. I'm sure not. I want to, but if I looked back at that early presenting stuff, it would be bad, you know, understatement. I'd be awful because I didn't know what's doing. I was, I was learning, but there was no getting home and like scrolling and looking did people like me on that day? Just went home and then I probably went out with my mates and went to the shopping center or something. You know, just had a normal life outside of it. But I think it probably impacted me negatively in terms of the hyper awareness you have about how you're coming across. And I'm now at this age unpicking all of that and trying to just be me on any given day, whether that's a day where I'm knackered and feel like shit or like today, I feel good. I feel pretty balanced. I slept relatively well last night. Sorry. And I'm. And I'm sort of like, yeah, today's a day where I'm able just to relax into being myself. But I think back, you know, probably in my 20s, I was so away. Now, when you're on radio, certainly as you know, getting constant bombardment of messages, of people saying, loving the show, I've got something to say. You're a twat. This is gray. You're annoying. You know, it's, it's a head. You're constantly like, sorry, what?

[Jamie Lang]

Interesting.

[Fern Cotton]

So much information. So I think for a while it impacted me very negatively and now I'm learning to live alongside that because that won't change.

[Jamie Lang]

Being in the entertainment business, it's all about being liked.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

By the audience, by commissioners, the job, by producers.

[Fern Cotton]

Yes, it became for me, distorted because, and this sounds overly dramatic, and I say this in the book, but it was survival, being likable. Because if I wasn't likable, I didn't have a job. And then that would send me hurtling back to my old life where I didn't know what else I could do or wanted to do. That was it. I just wanted to at that point be a TV presenter. And if you're not likable, you don't have those opportunities or if the audience turn against you, you are screwed. So for me, it became not just something that propped up my self worth or made me feel like I was doing a good job. It was survival.

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[Jamie Lang]

In the book, you talk about how you were publicly disliked at times, but the fern that I know, I don't remember that.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah. Because I don't think for me, always, I think, you know, it feels bigger when it's you, doesn't it, when you're experiencing it? But I certainly had periods where there was a lot of noise around and people making assumptions about me and stories out there, and it absolutely crushed me to the point of, how old are

[Jamie Lang]

you at this point?

[Fern Cotton]

Like, in my early 30s. And I just thought, you know, I don't want to do this anymore. This is. It's too much. It's. I can't live alongside this noise. And I was so unsure of myself at that point. And I was also, you know, a parent for the first time, so there's a lot going on and I just thought, it's not worth it. And that's, you know, that's. That for me was the darkest time, but also this amazing opportunity for me to do life differently. And that's, you know, where Happy Place came from. And everything I've done since has been because I hit that rock bottom. And I was incredibly depressed for a long time and on medication just to, like, you know, still going to Radio 1 every day and having to deal with all of it and then sort of subsequently went through a big, big patch of anxiety and panic after that. That was, you know, debilitating. And I didn't understand the anxiety at that point at all. So I was just in it.

[Jamie Lang]

And you had never had it before?

[Fern Cotton]

No, no. Never had it before.

[Jamie Lang]

You've had. You said it was suddenly out of nowhere.

[Fern Cotton]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'd never had an ounce of anxiety. And I used to go on live TV as a teenager. Calm as you like, zero nerves, like a teeny tingle of like, it's exciting. But not like, when I was in that era, in my. In my 30s, I couldn't do live TV. I had to stop doing live radio. I couldn't drive a car on the motorway or an A road because the speed would give me a panic attack. Bumping into someone that I didn't know I was going to see would give me a panic attack. It was. It all just hit me in one big lump and it was utterly horrendous. And I. I had never understood what a panic attack was before that. I was like, what are people going on about? Panic attack? I didn't understand it. My God, it was horrendous. I was having them, at worst, like, every couple of hours. I would have one.

[Jamie Lang]

No.

[Fern Cotton]

Or I'd have them all through the night. If I had a TV job in the morning that I knew I had to do, like a live TV appearance had to go on Lorraine or whatever, I would not sleep. I would have. My heart would race all night. I'd be like, sitting up in bed. I couldn't breathe. I felt like I was going to puke. It was. It was really extreme. And I sort of downplay. I used to gaslight myself and go, people have got it far worse. Like, stop. Just stop even thinking about it. Just get on with it. And that obviously doesn't help because if you're not looking at it, you can't heal from it. So I was just in it. And it's only been, I would say, the last four years, probably since I turned 40, that I've really tackled it.

[Jamie Lang]

So you think it was around 10 years?

[Fern Cotton]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd say not as severe as that, but I still was having odd panic attacks here and there. The depression kind of subsided and it was more like anxiety that. An OCD that came into it because that created some sort of safety framework for me in the. In the panic. But the last four years, I have tackled all of it head on. And I would go as far to say that I'm. Again, like. It feels treacherous to say it, but I think I'm feeling mentally the best I have. And that's not to say I don't have really shit days, because I do. I have bad days. I have days where I feel fucking stressed out, but I'm not where I was. If I look back, I go, bloody hell. I'm nowhere near that.

[Jamie Lang]

And that's why it's so important for someone like you to talk about it. Because when you're in that place, you feel like there's no end.

[Fern Cotton]

No end.

[Jamie Lang]

You feel imprisoned within your own body, especially when it's to do with panic.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And you are living. Living in constant fear. And in your head you're just going, well, this is me forever. Yeah, this is me forever. And you can't see a way out. And that is a scary place to get to.

[Fern Cotton]

It is because it really. It's very debilitating. And you stop doing things that you like doing. You know, I sort of almost stopped socializing entirely, or I certainly didn't enjoy it when I did because I was so panicked. I would say say something stupid or. Or I would have to go home and replay the whole night over and over again to make sure I hadn't sort of messed up during the evening. And then I would just think, it's just easier to stay at home. I'll just. I won't go out. And I think this is why I'm loving my 40s as a woman, is that all of that is coming back. Like, I want to go out. I want to see people. I want to have fun. I don't care as much if I mess up, you know? Yes, it's still uncomfortable, like it is for all of us, but I'm not beating myself over the head for, like, years worrying about one stupid thing I said or one thing I messed up.

[Jamie Lang]

Did you do that?

[Fern Cotton]

Oh, my God. Are you kidding me?

[Jamie Lang]

Because I need to caveat this, because you and I, whenever we spoke about this in your podcast, your great podcast, but we've been for dinners, right? And I find Fern Cotton is one of the most alpha women I've ever met. When we go for dinner is our great friend Elizabeth Day. And we're sitting there.

[Fern Cotton]

These are my. By the way, these dinners, the greatest.

[Jamie Lang]

I've never laughed.

[Fern Cotton]

I've never. There's laughing when no one's making noise because we're wheezing. Like, it's just air coming out.

[Jamie Lang]

It's. It's honest.

[Fern Cotton]

And we talk everything.

[Jamie Lang]

Everything.

[Fern Cotton]

We have fixed the world by the end of these dinners.

[Jamie Lang]

But one of our first dinners we did, we were having a dinner, and I was like, I had a shot. And I was like, we're getting on some tequilas. Maybe this. Here we freaking go. And I was like, hey, Elizabeth, let's. Or another espresso martini. I'm drinking coffee. I don't drink coffee ever. I drink it.

[Fern Cotton]

It's like 11 at night.

[Jamie Lang]

I am up all night. I am gonna be awake. And as I'm literally sipping and drinking the espresso martini, I look around and Fern Cotton has got up. Put a coat on, right, guys, I'm going home. And I went, okay. And you were like, yeah, it was the most amazing kind of like. And you were like, yeah, you know, I'm done. I'm done now.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah, I've had a great time, but I'm off.

[Jamie Lang]

And Elizabeth and I, like puppies, followed you out the restaurant. And we're like, well, I guess it's over. But that, for me, is someone who you talking about being liked and having panic and having the anxiety and worrying about whether I did that is someone with, what I would say, real confidence.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah. But it took me so long to get to that place. This is very new. It's in the last few years that I felt I can exercise my voice and truly, because I've always, luckily throughout my adult life, had a platform to say things. Not always my words, but I've had that platform. But rarely in that era were they totally authentic because it was too scary. And if I did show a bit of myself that felt authentic and I got backlash, I would think, right, lock that away. Never bring that out.

[Jamie Lang]

Get out of here.

[Fern Cotton]

Probably towards the end of my Radio 1 career, I had diluted myself down to a version of me that was just sort of beige enough to get by. So no one gave me shit.

[Jamie Lang]

It's the curse of success. It really is what it's. You see it in business, you see it in. In a personal brand. You know, you started out at 15 years old just being you.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Going out.

[Fern Cotton]

And I was totally myself back then. Totally myself.

[Jamie Lang]

Because you have that naivety.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And. And I've said this so many times, but there's this great conversation which. Which is about how experience ruins innocence and why if we stay innocent, it's the great reason why kids can climb to the top of the tree is because they're not worried about hurting themselves as we get older. We don't do that because we're like, what happens if we fall out and break? And so we lose that. I find it so interesting how people then start to filter themselves, because they do, but they try to become a version that they think other people want to be, rather being a version of what they should be.

[Fern Cotton]

So this has been my big learning in. In writing this book is. Okay, so what even does it mean to be likable? I've landed on it's compliance. It's complying to the conditions, the surroundings, the people you're with so that you do not rock the boat. That's being likable. It's not just about being a likable person. You know, you're a likable person. We've got. Elizabeth Day is a likable person. But when it becomes your identity, that's when it becomes something where you manipulate who you are to fit into surroundings. So actually you're not being liked for you. You're being liked for a fantasy version of yourself you've created to please everybody. So you're not actually being liked at all. So I'm trying to fully immerse myself in a life where I am me as. As much as I can possibly be. And if you like me for that, that's a bonus. If you don't, at least you don't like me for being exactly who I actually am. I think that feels better. But it's something that I'm still tentatively learning about.

[Jamie Lang]

How do you do that? Because the ultimate practice, it's exposure.

[Fern Cotton]

I think it's practice. I think it's. For instance, if you're a people pleaser who always says yes. I was very much that person. I would almost be saying yes before someone had finished asking me to do something for them. And inside I'm going, I don't want to do that. There's not a bit of me that wants to do what I've just said yes to. And I'm going, oh, yeah, of course. I mean, do you know what? I'll do it twice. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, giving them more. And actually, in the last few years that I've been diving into this subject, thinking about it, it's been practicing saying, kind of think about that to give myself the time, and then maybe coming back and just saying, do you know what? At the moment, I'm so overwhelmed. I can't do that for you, or I can't give you my time or whatever it might be. And yeah, it's icky. You feel uncomfortable. But usually if the other person is pretty decent human, they'll get it, they'll understand. And actually, I think there's a ripple effect in terms of them feeling able to do the same in their lives. So it doesn't always work out like that. You do piss people off. And that's another part of the learning curve, is being in the discomfort of pissing someone off and dealing with it.

[Jamie Lang]

Why do we fear that? Why not? Every individual, but a huge majority of us, we fear the. The response of giving a negative answer to something.

[Fern Cotton]

I, again, from digging into this subject, believe it's because. Because of the social conditioning we've all been through.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Fern Cotton]

We get to whatever age it is. Late teens, 20s, 30s, you're probably getting slightly more existential and thinking about life. And we sit there and we wonder, am I a good person or am I an absolute? And we're not. We're not entirely sure, because sometimes the world tells us you got it wrong, you're a bad person. And it could be anything. You see something on social media and you think, oh, God, I don't actually agree with this whole thing that's going on.

[Jamie Lang]

Or.

[Fern Cotton]

Or someone says something and you're like, well, I've Done that. Am I. Am I an awful person? You know, there's so much messaging that we're not sure if we're good people. And yes, we hear about a lot of awful shit going on in the world. And bad people out there, they exist, but I think the majority of people are good people. But that doesn't mean you can't mess up, get things wrong, upset people. We're human, you know, we're not here to be like benevolent little robots. But when we've been sort of conditioned to think we can't mess up, we can't say no. We can't annoy anybody. We can't live life in a way that feels right to us and might be wrong to other people because we assume it means we're a bad person. And I think those binary concepts are causing us a lot of. A lot of problems.

[Jamie Lang]

I remember I had a conversation with a bunch of my guy friends years ago, and we're talking about our worst fears. And it was going around, and one was like, I'm scared of being, like, buried alive. Or like, whatever it was came to me and I said, I think my biggest fear is not being liked. And every single one of them went, well, yeah, of course, that's. Yeah. But it's weird. No one.

[Fern Cotton]

Especially for men.

[Jamie Lang]

Especially for men.

[Fern Cotton]

Especially for men. It's weird.

[Jamie Lang]

Why? Why is that so?

[Fern Cotton]

Because I think it sort of. It can kind of stink of desperation in a way. And I think at points I was desperate to be liked. And that's not appealing or sexy or, you know, we're very much taught that aloof is cool. I actually write about two people in the book because I was enamored by them. And there were these female DJs called queens of Noise, and they were it. And I would go to the gigs and be stood there thinking, oh, my God, why? I want to be like them. But I know I'm not. I'm like, I'm sort of goofy and I'm stuck still. Also kind of listening to Hanson at home. So, like, this is not great. And I went to the hairdressers in Harrow, and I said, dye my hair dark, dark brown, black at the back and a blonde bit at the front, because that's what Mairead had. And I straight up copied her hair. And I thought that when I walked out the hairdressers, I'd be like, it's. It's happened. Like, I'm cool. I've done it. I'm like her. And then I just felt like a Twat. And I went home and I was like, I look like a moron. I've obviously copied her hair. I'm still not cool. I'm an absolute dork. This is not good. But I was desperate to. To have that thing that they had. It's sort of an indescribable. And they were like, they weren't aloof or whatever. They were kind of fun and cool and be doing cartwheels to the DJ booth and everyone was just like, they're. They're just amazing. But I wasn't cool. I was always sort of like quite tired by 10pm and wanted to go to bed. You know, they'd be up till 7 the next morning and I'd be like, blinking in the corner, trying to keep my eyes open. They were just cool.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay. Being cool really, in a way, is kind of being yourself.

[Fern Cotton]

It's being yourself.

[Jamie Lang]

Being yourself.

[Fern Cotton]

When you're a grown adult, that's what you realize unapologetically yourself. Yes, Correct.

[Jamie Lang]

And what you were doing is you were trying to mimic someone else because you thought that would make you cool. And that's the problem with social media as well. What we do is that we wake up and we see all these people and go, well, they're doing that, doing that. So I'm going to copy Happy.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Or I'm gonna not quite copy it close to. Because that would.

[Fern Cotton]

No, doesn't work.

[Jamie Lang]

Doesn't work.

[Fern Cotton]

And also, anything you do, as we all know, on the exterior, doesn't touch the sides. You know, like you. I got loads of my hair cut off yesterday and I felt fantastic for five minutes. And then all my problems came back and I was like, okay, the haircut didn't solve the problems. We have to do the really hard, sometimes boring, laborious work, work inside. And that might be a life's work. That might be a lifetime of self discovery or therapy or figuring out what makes you tick might be forever. But doing all the stuff that we assume is going to fix it, like, you know, getting the perfect partner, getting paid more, being able to get the shoes that you've always wanted or the car you've always wanted. Doesn't work. And we know it, we know it doesn't work, but we still do it. I interviewed Anton Deck for my podcast. And if Ant and Dec can sit there saying, we don't feel we've made it, what hope is there for any of us? They are the top of the tree. They don't feel they've made it because there's always another rung of the ladder, there's always another place to get to. So we're sort of scrambling around, trying to get that feeling from stuff and exterior validation and, you know, being likable is one of those things that we grab hold of to try and feel like we're fixed. None of it works. We've gotta do the boring bit, which takes years and years and years.

[Jamie Lang]

You know, I spoke to a guy on the podcast, a guy called. He's called Robert, but to his friends, he's Bob and he.

[Fern Cotton]

Wait, Waldinger.

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[Fern Cotton]

Oh, I love the guy.

[Jamie Lang]

God.

[Fern Cotton]

Oh, my God. He is exceptional. That book. I love him. I love him. And he could be that sort of person, having been like a big or still is a big Harvard professor, where you're like, I'm so stupid. I shouldn't be sat with him. But he doesn't make you feel like that. Doesn't make you feel that he's just a nice person.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, he's great. And what he says is that if you ask people who are much later in their life, maybe towards, like, the end of their lives, what they say is they don't talk about what successes they have. They don't talk about what they achieved. The baftas they won, the cars they drove. They talk about the relationships they had. And we're fooling ourselves a little bit in life. Plus, we are thinking these things are the haircut, the job, the books that we make, the podcasts that we do, that is gonna make us fulfilled later in life. But actually it's not.

[Fern Cotton]

No, we're very similar. And we've talked about this when we've been at dinner, that. That we've both kind of got that drive. We want to keep achieving and doing more. And some of that, I think, does come from a healthy place. If you want to challenge yourself, you want to see maybe what your full potential is. If you can get anywhere near it, you want to keep learning. And I think if you're aware of it, it can be a real healthy challenge to have in mind. But I think when it becomes a goal that you're going to somehow reach this nirvana and go, okay, I've made it. I'm good. That will never come. That will never come.

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[Jamie Lang]

do you think we can change who we are? So if we are want to be like, if we are a people pleaser, if we are scared of whatever it may be, do you think we can change that within ourselves?

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah, I think you can. I think it's slow and I think we have to be realistic that we're not going to change entirely. Now I'm always going to be be a bit kind of hyperactive and driven and want to do a million things. But I think when life happens, whether it's positive or negative, it could be the birth of a child, it could be something pretty bleak, it could be a health thing. You know, I had some health stuff last year or the year before. I think it does change your perspective or you know, you lose somebody, someone dies. You know, there's cliche moments where you go, God, I need to stop and look at what am I doing? You know, is this worth it? Am I, is my drive or what I'm trying to achieve detrimental to my general well being. And I think you'd be mad to not look at the outcome or the signs and make changes. So I do think it's possible. I don't think it's easy, but I do think it's possible.

[Jamie Lang]

You mentioned the health stuff, right? And in your book you say the price of being likable was an unexpected operation.

[Fern Cotton]

Yes, yes.

[Jamie Lang]

What happened?

[Fern Cotton]

So I, I mean, I wouldn't say it's sort of completely exclusively correlates to my need to be liked. But I think because I'd become at times actually a martyr, you know, I'd be the person that would just go, you know, my motto almost became, I'll just fucking do it. Like, don't you, don't anyone do anything. I'll do everything. And you better then say, how do you do it all at the end, you know, became that person, which is horrible. I didn't want to be that person. But I became. I just sort of like, was constantly thinking I should be excelling in every area and doing everything for everybody in my personal life, working life, friendship group, everything. And I think some of the time stress causes physical outcome. I mean, some doctors say, you know, I think Rangan Chatterjee's got stats in one of his books about sort of 95% of physical ailments are caused by stress. That's a big percentage. And I was stressed a lot of the time and I'd been through some pretty horrible shit. And I'd had this little lump on my face for maybe two years and I used to sort of sit there and fiddle with it when I was like reading to the kids at night. It was like a little kind of fidgety thing. And then at the end of, or maybe the middle of 2020. What year are we in now?

[Jamie Lang]

2030?

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah, 20. 20.

[Jamie Lang]

2010, I think.

[Fern Cotton]

2010, yeah. I have no idea. But in about, about 2024, at some point I was like, God, I think this is, this is getting bigger. Like this is one of those things that maybe I should go and check out. And you know, you go to the doctor thinking, I'm wasting everyone's time. This is so embarrassing. He's got more important things to be doing with his time. And I had this scan. The woman very, very casually kind of went, yep, you've got a tumor on your parotid gland, which is your saliva gland. And I was like, what? Weird? And I kind of wasn't terrified, but I thought this was like a bit of a wake up call. It was quite immediate that I thought that this was like a bit of a wake up call. And then luckily I had a biopsy on it and it was benign, so it was just a case of removing it. But I knew I had to sort of change things and not get to that point of absolute burnout constantly.

[Jamie Lang]

Because who's that? That, who's that? Who's that helping? No, no one. We feel, oh, we're, we're working so hard. So yes, we're going to that point. Because then everyone can see that we're working hard. And I feel like I'm working hard

[Fern Cotton]

and I deserve what I'm getting.

[Jamie Lang]

I deserve it because I'm working for me.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't deserve these opportunities or the life I'm living. I need to push myself to the point of breaking point to believe that I deserve it.

[Jamie Lang]

You know, in your. One of your chapters in your book is, will you like me if I end things here? Ending things in general is, like, such a powerful thing, whether. Whatever that is. And you've kind of been. I think, especially with your career, you've been quite good at saying, I'm gonna change this now.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

I'm gonna move on. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do that. That is really powerful because we know so many people who are stuck in relationships, stuck in jobs, stuck in friendships, whatever it is, and they don't change it because the fear of not being liked, the fear of suck, the fear of what if, what? The unknown. Right. So what advice would you give to those people?

[Fern Cotton]

I just think life is so short and it's such a banal cliche, but I stand by it. And I'm not the sort of person that's good at routine or doing the same thing on repeat. I get bored. My attention span is not big. And also, I. I'm desperate to keep learning and growing and finding new parts of myself, I guess, you know, I. I didn't know I was capable of any of the stuff I've done in the last 10 years. And that, to me, is exciting. I think I need a level of excitement. And when I've done a job for a long time. So Whether it's Radio 1 for 10 years or Celebrity Juice for 10 years, I'm completely grateful for both of those opportunities. And that is not to be diluted at all. Yet. I think. I think they naturally, for me, reached an expiration date where I felt like I needed to be tested more and to be challenged. And also, it's really important to make way for new people. You know, I was so happy that Clara Ampho took over my Radio 1 show as I left. She's an immense talent. She's a brilliant interviewer, amazing music knowledge, and. And you've got to keep moving to make way for other people, to. To give those jobs a try. So I think it's. I believe it's important to keep moving and changing and growing and collaborating. That's been a big, big part of my job in the last 10 years that I don't suppose I'd thought about before. So I just think I want to keep. I just want to keep things exciting and keep growing and I want to look to the future thinking, who knows what's going to happen?

[Jamie Lang]

And it's okay at times to be selfish and to say, actually, you know, I'm not going to do that anymore. I don't want to do that. That's okay. I feel. Right.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah. I think it's all about balancing act. I think especially when you've got kids, you've got to look at everything like, can I pay the bills if it's work wise? Or how will this decision impact the people around me? But I think when you know enough's enough and you're not feeling great, I think, you know, and that whisper gets louder and louder, I think that's when you know you've got to jump. And for whatever reason, I've been pretty good in my work life going, I'm gonna jump into, like, nothingness, into the void. I'm just gonna see. See what happens and, and hopes for the best with, you know, the kind of backup plan always of if it all goes wrong, I'll open a cat sanctuary or something and probably be happier. I'm not even joking.

[Jamie Lang]

Do you think you'll ever do live TV again?

[Fern Cotton]

I really don't know.

[Jamie Lang]

I just.

[Fern Cotton]

You. I mean, I really don't know. I thought about it so much and at the end of last year, I actually said to my manager, I think I'd like to do telly again. I think I might want to. I think I might want to sort of start looking into it again. And then I got into the new year and I was like, no, I think that was my ego talking. I think that was my ego going, you failed at telly, you need to try again. I don't know if I do have any desire, but.

[Jamie Lang]

Why do you think you failed at tv? You didn't fail at tv.

[Fern Cotton]

A part of me believes I did. A part of me believes I did. A part of me believes that if I hadn't, I don't know, I'm not even sure. I think there was a sort of a string of jobs that I didn't get, probably in my late 20s, early 30s, that were slightly crushing, where I thought that's when I started to question, there must be something wrong about me.

[Jamie Lang]

Which ones were those? Go and give it to me.

[Fern Cotton]

I can't even remember which shows they were, but they were opportunities that either I'd been up for, I didn't get or things that I wasn't asked to come back for another series of TV shows. And that can be quite crushing. And I think it would be weird to not take it personally because then you question yourself.

[Jamie Lang]

You think, is it me? Am I good enough? Am I boring? Am I not fun? Am I?

[Fern Cotton]

Yes. Do they not like those questions? I think at that point in my career I thought, am I like, am I really weird? And no one has told me, like, am I a bit odd? And people are not brave enough to say, you're just a bit weird. That was my big insecurity. I still sometimes have it now, but I sort of don't care if I'm a bit weird. I'm like, whatever. I. I'm just being me. But I think I very much worried about it back then. Do I want to put myself back in that position where I am so easily sacked? You know, I've been sacked a bunch of times. Do I want that again? I can't be sacked from Happy Place, which is really handy. Do I want to be put in that position where I can be sacked? I don't know if I do.

[Jamie Lang]

Are you proud of yourself?

[Fern Cotton]

Sometimes. Sometimes. I actually said to my mate Donna, who's a really good friend of mine and a bit of a mentor as well, actually. And on, I think it was Tuesday this week. I had a radio show to pre record and then I did five podcasts back to back, which I'd never normally do. Five. Five is absurd.

[Jamie Lang]

Three is the max.

[Fern Cotton]

Three is the max. Three is the max. Three. And then I got home and Rex needed help with this debate speech that he's writing and honey wanted to paint a shoebox for something and I kind of down tools and went straight into it and made dinner and we did stories and I got to the end of the day and I'd sort of cope with all of this. It pretty well, which I don't always, you know, some days I'm terrible parent or I up at work, but that day I sort of did it all. And I got to the end of the day and I spoke to Donna and I said, I think I'm proud of myself today. And I would never normally say that. And it's not about what I've achieved ever. It's about have I coped? How have I coped? Because I've got the propensity to be a. To have a bit of a tantrum and be a bit of a child if things are going badly. So, you know, if the kids are not listening or whatever, I Can just be like, oh, just do what you want then. And I walk off like a kid and I'm like, what am I doing? That is mad. But I've just said to them, do what you want, then, like, I'm seven, like, what am I doing? Be an adult. So I was really proud of myself. I did a whole day of, like, adulting.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Fern Cotton]

I mean, I should be at this age.

[Jamie Lang]

And you should be so proud of your new book.

[Fern Cotton]

I am. Do you know, I am proud of it because it's the most honest thing I've ever written. Without a doubt. It's the most honest words I've put to paper. And hopefully in 10 years, I'll look back and think, God, that wasn't honest. And I'll be even more honest.

[Jamie Lang]

Even more honest.

[Fern Cotton]

Yeah, I hope so.

[Jamie Lang]

Thank you, people. Off Cameron. Off everything. You are just such a kind friend. You are, really. And we know each other well, but not like family and things like that. But you're the first person to sort of reach out, ask how small Sophie is going through pregnancy. Ask how I am all the time. You're just.

[Fern Cotton]

Well, you're fucking brilliant and I love what you're doing and your. Your. Your whole business brain just massively inspires me. I'm totally in awe of what you've created and. And I just love having our dinners. We need to do a new one when. When it's the right time. I'm not going to put any pressure on you at the moment, but I love our dinners. I love them.

[Jamie Lang]

We're going to leave a link to your new book, Likable How I Broke Free from the need to Please. It's going to be. Go and get it. You're just incredible in every single way. Listen to all your podcasts. We're going to leave links down below as well.

[Fern Cotton]

Thank you, Phone.

[Jamie Lang]

Before we finish, we'd like to finish it with eight quick questions. You ready?

[Fern Cotton]

Oh, Christ. Go on, then.

[Jamie Lang]

What's the saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up?

[Fern Cotton]

It.

[Jamie Lang]

Best compliment anyone's ever given you.

[Fern Cotton]

Oh, I probably think even you saying today that I'm a good interviewer, that means more than anything.

[Jamie Lang]

So good.

[Fern Cotton]

Good.

[Jamie Lang]

What scares you most about yourself?

[Fern Cotton]

Oh, my impatience. Because I can be very urgent about things and it's not always good.

[Jamie Lang]

When was the last time you cried?

[Fern Cotton]

I just.

[Jamie Lang]

Are you a crier?

[Fern Cotton]

Oh, yeah, you are. Love crying. I love it. I just watched the Ballad of Wallace Island. Have you seen it?

[Jamie Lang]

Don't you worry. I've been banging that timkey drum.

[Fern Cotton]

I have not wept like that. I was like breathlessly sobbing. I laughed my head off and cried in equal measures. It is genius.

[Jamie Lang]

What's something you can't let go of?

[Fern Cotton]

Do you want to hear something so tragic?

[Jamie Lang]

Can't wait.

[Fern Cotton]

Can't believe I'm saying this, but I've had a teddy bear since I was 14. I got given it after one of my first auditions by my mom and I am not letting that go. I still sleep. So this is how I sleep. Right. Right on my side.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Fern Cotton]

Pillow between my legs. Because that's just something in pregnancy that you do and then you can't get out of it.

[Jamie Lang]

Sophie. Now does it.

[Fern Cotton]

Pillow here, bear here. Eye mask on, Earplugs in, duvet on. I'm literally cocooned and sort of muffled with fabric. It's outrageous. But that bear's going nowhere.

[Jamie Lang]

What's your guilty pleasure?

[Fern Cotton]

Probably a midday bath or. I'm very generous with my chocolate indulgence. I love chocolate, so I'm not even guilty about it. I just eat a lot of it.

[Jamie Lang]

It what turns you off?

[Fern Cotton]

Superiority.

[Jamie Lang]

Nice.

[Fern Cotton]

And bad shoes. Nice.

[Jamie Lang]

It's a good one. What turns you on?

[Fern Cotton]

Genuine support and happiness for other people's success and achievement in life. I just think there is nothing better than knowing that like a friend or a person in your life genuinely is cheering you on. I love that.

[Jamie Lang]

That is the greatest. What do you like most about yourself?

[Fern Cotton]

I think my drive, which is actually 100% from my parents who, you know, incredibly hard working people. So I think my drive has enabled me to fill in the gaps where skill hasn't been present.

[Jamie Lang]

Bonus question. When you were younger, who was your celebrity crush and who is it now?

[Fern Cotton]

It was most definitely Taylor Hansen growing up because he sort of looked like a girl and I thought, you know, like, not scary, looks like a girl. I was very in love with him now and I've interviewed them since and it was. It's still like, oh, oh my God. Yeah. Now I still feel like I'm so out of popular culture. Like, who's hot? Like who's not 20, you know what I mean? Like who's my age? Who's famous and hot? I don't know who they are. I feel like I'm out. I can't fancy Timothy Chalamet. I could be his fucking mum. Like, I don't know who's hot anymore and I don't know who these. Who are you? Where are you? Harry Styles. Too young. Like these people are too young for me. I can be their mum. It's that like Benson Boone. Too fucking young. I cannot fancy these people. I don't know who I meant to fancy.

[Jamie Lang]

So you have to fancy like Jamie Oliver.

[Fern Cotton]

I mean, let's go. I don't know. I just need to. I need to do some research within that area to find who these people are because I've lost touch with who's out there.

[Jamie Lang]

Because. Yeah, exactly. The toughest. God, Fern, thank you.

[Fern Cotton]

Thank you.

[Jamie Lang]

You're the greatest.

[Fern Cotton]

You are. You're great company, Jamie.

[Jamie Lang]

Thank you very much.

[Fern Cotton]

You really are.

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