GREATEST COMPANY OF 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Greatest Company of 2025"

Great Company with Jamie Laing
A Jampot Productions Original Podcast
Date: December 24, 2025

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Episode Overview

This special year-end episode of "Great Company with Jamie Laing" takes a reflective look back at highlights from 2025, showcasing heartfelt discussions, vulnerable moments, and personal growth shared by a mosaic of unique guests. While Jamie himself is absent due to impending fatherhood, producers Jemima and Helen co-host, curating favorite segments and providing commentary. The episode is a tapestry of joy, resilience, and self-improvement—touching on neurodivergence, cancer, friendship, grief, and reconnection.

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Key Discussion Points & Highlights

1. Behind the Scenes: Jamie’s Team Reflects

[02:36 - 04:51]

• Producers Jemima and Helen introduce themselves, discussing Jamie's absence.
• Helen describes the privilege of producing the show and listening to deeply personal stories.
• Jemima and Helen reminisce about standout episodes: Professor Green, Reardon Maynard, Jessie J, Kat Burns, and Spencer Matthews.

“So many really great guests will come on and share some really intimate moments…such a privilege to be a part of that.”
— Helen ([03:34])

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2. Kat Burns on Neurodivergence & the Need for Deep Connection

[09:11 - 15:23]

• Kat Burns shares her discomfort with small talk, preferring meaningful connections.
• Discussion of being ADHD and autistic and its influence on social dynamics.
• Jamie and Kat bond over their shared neurodivergence, comparing their tendencies for deep conversation.

“I have absolutely no idea what to say after, ‘hey, how are you?’ I just sort of go…”
— Kat Burns ([10:32])

“The reason I started this podcast is because it was about connection… in a world where we’re losing that connection because of devices and social media and stuff like that, it was about reconnecting in that space.”
— Jamie Laing ([15:09])

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3. Reardon Maynard: Life in an American Prison and Resilience

[15:34 - 25:06]

• Reardon recounts his experience of prison: intimidation, gangs, and survival tactics.
• He explains the rigid social structure and everyday violence.
• Jamie probes about safety, despair, and how inmates organize themselves.
• Discussion of normalization of violence and the psychological toll.

“You become very mercenary. You don’t really. Nothing really phases you, really.”
— Reardon Maynard ([23:09])

“I had someone beaten to death in front of me with a lock in a sock… You can’t believe it. It’s surreal.”
— Reardon Maynard ([23:25])

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4. Jessie J on Receiving a Cancer Diagnosis, Coping, and Public Vulnerability

[25:24 - 44:39]

• Jessie J reveals her breast cancer diagnosis and the journey from private fear to public discussion.
• Talks about the complexities of sharing such news publicly, especially as a figure in the spotlight.
• The healing, affirming power of community support and her decision to keep working and performing despite illness.

“I was diagnosed with early breast cancer seven weeks ago… and I haven’t told anyone.”
— Jessie J ([25:48])

“That feeling, that euphoria, that energy… everyone that was there in that space—my team, my family, my friends, strangers, young, old…It was the most… It was overwhelming.”
— Jessie J, recalling the Summertime Ball experience ([44:30])

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5. On Grief, Family, and Minimizing Regret

[46:48 - 54:17]

• Guest (identity not specified, possibly the "Expert on Friendship") shares movingly about losing his father during the COVID-19 pandemic—expressing unpreparedness for grief and the importance of saying things that matter before it’s too late.
• The cathartic power of discussing grief openly and the urge to minimize regret by having difficult conversations with loved ones.

“Your parents are going to die, man, and it’s going to be…a million times worse than you think it’s going to be, and you have to get ready for it.”
— Guest ([49:11])

“The one thing you can do…is minimize the regret. Say the things you need to say.”
— Guest ([49:15])

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6. Jamie on Parental Guilt and Reconciliation

[54:39 - 59:38]

• Jamie candidly admits guilt over his relationship with his father post-divorce, having blamed him unfairly.
• A touching exchange about the need for apologies and repairing parent-child bonds while there is time.

“Because it would be admitting to myself that I was just a bit of an idiot for a long time.”
— Jamie Laing on why he hasn’t apologized to his father ([56:57])

“The fact that it’s easier makes it even more important you do it to your dad.”
— Guest ([57:15])

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7. Jamie & Spencer Matthews: Friendship, Misunderstandings, and Reconnection

[61:11 - 69:40]

• Conversation exploring the ups and downs of a 20-year friendship, including hurt around not being invited to Jamie’s wedding.
• Honest discussion about what it means to maintain friendship as life priorities shift.
• Metaphor of friendships as gardens needing tending; vulnerability about how ambition can make friendships hard to sustain.

“Friends are like a garden. You have to water them to keep them alive.”
— Jamie Laing ([66:15])

“There’s never been a time where I have disliked you.”
— Spencer Matthews ([67:13])

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8. Expert Guidance: Making and Nurturing Friendships as Adults

[71:45 - 78:29]

• The “Expert on Friendship” gives practical, compassionate advice for listeners struggling with isolation.
• Encourages embracing vulnerability, being proactive in deepening conversations, and not being shamed by difficulty with making friends.
• Powerful analogy: we can “cultivate” meaningful connection rather than waiting for magical moments.

“Friendships should not depend on alcohol…We should all be learning how to be drunk sober.”
— Expert ([74:29])

“Most people are having superficial conversations…not because they want to…they just don’t know any different.”
— Expert ([76:27])

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9. Wrap-Up and Producer Jemima’s Farewell

[78:35 - 79:34]

• Jemima and Helen express gratitude for the community built around the show.
• Jemima announces her departure, reflecting on the evolution of “Great Company” and the significance of small shifts in perspective.

“When the guests say, ‘I’m in great company,’ I’ve always felt that’s you guys. And so I’m gonna be coming and joining you all as an owl now…”
— Jemima ([79:34])

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “I can't do the small talk. That's why I struggle in, like, events, because most of the time, everyone's sort of looking through each other, not really having actual conversations.”
  — Kat Burns ([09:51])

• “The reason Jamie is so wonderful is that he opens people up and he disarms them and he charms them and he is so…he shares so much.”
  — Producer Jemima ([08:34])

• “If anyone listening to this, if you’ve got the chance to chat to your parents before they go about the stuff that matters, do it.”
  — Guest ([59:38])

• “We can have conversational strawberries every day. We don’t have to have wild strawberries.”
  — Expert ([77:47])

• “It really opens up what you speak about with friends at the pub or wherever else you’re going…”
  — Jessie J ([78:52])

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:36] – Producers introduce the special format and reflect on the show’s evolution
• [09:11] – Kat Burns on social unease, ADHD, and authentic connection
• [15:34] – Reardon Maynard’s prison experiences and lessons learned
• [25:24] – Jessie J reveals breast cancer diagnosis; speaks on healing and support
• [46:48] – Guest on grief, the loss of a parent, and family legacies
• [61:11] – Jamie and Spencer Matthews: Friendship challenges and healing
• [71:45] – Practical advice for making friends as an adult from the “Expert on Friendship”
• [78:35] – Producers reflect on the meaning of “Great Company”
• [79:21] – Producer Jemima’s heartfelt farewell

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Tone and Style

The episode maintains the show’s signature warmth, vulnerability, and candidness—balancing light-hearted reminiscence with profoundly human themes. Laughter, gentle teasing, and deep empathy are present throughout, making this episode both a celebration of connection and a call to open up, tend to, and cherish the relationships that shape our lives.

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Final Reflection

“Greatest Company of 2025” distills a year of storytelling, shining light on moments of fear, courage, loss, love, and, above all, the simple yet complex art of being in great company. For both long-time listeners and newcomers, it is a heartfelt reminder that transformative conversations—whether with celebrities, experts, or friends—are within reach if we dare to go a little deeper.

Transcript

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[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

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[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

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[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Producer Jemima]

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[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

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[Kat Burns]

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[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

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[Kat Burns]

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[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

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[Kat Burns]

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[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Spelled b a B-B-E-L.com acast rules and restrictions may apply. Hello everyone, My name is Jamie Laing and this is great company.

[Jessie J]

Well, hello there.

[Producer Jemima]

It's producer Jemima back PJs back and we've got a little bit of a different episode for you today because it's the the end of the Year. And you might be aware, you might not be aware, but Mr. Jamie Lang, who is our formidable host of Great Company, is a little bit busy because he's having a baby. He's having a baby. And who the hell is that, you might be wondering. That is my fellow producer, Helen.

[Jessie J]

Hello.

[Producer Jemima]

I think we sound the same. We do sound the same, apart from I'm slightly more northern than you, potentially. Yeah. But trust me, there are two of us. Helen's been working with me on Great Company for the last six months. In the shadows. In the shadows. That makes it sound so weird. In the shadows. Letting me take all the glory. But Helen is such a powerhouse and has been helping us build out the show. And we wanted to introduce you to one of our amazing team members, which is producer Helen.

[Jessie J]

Hello.

[Producer Jemima]

Here I am. How have you found working with Jamie, coming on and working on the Great Company team? It's been so much fun. I've enjoyed every single second of it. And I just can't get over how many really great guests will come on and share some really intimate moments of their lives. And it's just such a privilege to be part of that. What's an episode that you've produced and have really felt that on?

[Jessie J]

Ooh.

[Producer Jemima]

I think Professor Green, that was a big one. I loved him. He came in and his whole energy was just, like, so beautiful. And I just thought they had such an interesting conversation. And then so many people afterwards came and told me about it and said how much they enjoyed it. And that, for me, is just the big thing. Yeah, that was. I think that was a really special episode because, like, in the Office, we think a lot about our listeners and we have, you know, we do, like, demographics and stuff and we have ideas of what our listeners are. But it's so amazing when people come up to you and they say, like, I. Or they message you and they say. Really loved that episode. And for that one in particular, there were a lot of people where I was like, oh, it's like, you know, like, we have an idea of the age range of the, like, our most common listeners. Yeah. But, like, people from all ages, all walks of life. I feel like that episode really touched and was really special. Yeah, 100%. What would you say?

[Jessie J]

What's been your favorite of the year?

[Producer Jemima]

Oh, so I feel like we've tried a lot of different things this year. So one really stand out was having Reardon Maynard.

[Kat Burns]

Yes.

[Jessie J]

Yes.

[Producer Jemima]

Who was. He'd been to prison for fraud in the States. I think it was something. Taxi. Something to do With Tax. Go and listen to it for the full details. But he was so charismatic. But we didn't really know it was one of those ones where we really asked. Asked you guys to trust us with this episode because he wasn't like a big famous name and he was so brilliant that we actually invited him in for a part two. So we've never done a part two before, so that was really special. Jessie J. Oh, Jessie J. Incredible. Was amazing. So Jesse came onto the show and we had a whole recording and she revealed in the recording that she'd recently been diagnosed with breast cancer. And so we were really careful with that edit. And then after the recording, I sent the edit for her to listen to because it's her news and we wanted to make sure she was happy with it. And her team came back and they were like, we want to re record it. And I was like, okay. I got a whole production schedule. But we, it was really important for us that, you know, like, it's her news. We have to, we have to like, follow her lead with this. And so she came back and then we had to piece these two parts together. And I think it felt such an honor that she wanted to come and share that story with us. And I think it's a really powerful episode and that was another first. So I've never done that type of thing and like trying to work out how to fit those all together. So that was really special when Jamie's dad came on, when Jamie did his run.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Producer Jemima]

I also like Kat Burns. She was at the beginning of the year, but like, she's just the whole. Anytime we ever, like, repost clips of Kat. Oh, actually there's gonna be a little bit of Kat coming up in today's show. I just think she'. She just cracks me up. I think she's so brilliant. Oh yeah, she's great. I remember listening to that before I started working on Great Company and I just thought she's. She's something special. Yeah. I was furiously nodding throughout her whole interview. Also, Spencer Matthews. Yes. That was. I like, I, I watched Made in Chelsea from, from the beginning. So I mean, didn't we all, let's be honest. But it felt very real. And so often in interview show we're talking about things that have happened in the past and like, tell me about that experience and how did you over. Whereas that was like we were watching them overcome something. It was like, it was a. It was an interesting atmosphere. Oh, yeah. Like, you could feel the tension in the room, which was really remarkable. And Then it comes across in the edit as well. It's just. Yeah, yeah. And then they, like, wiggled for. And then it kind of. It ended. And it was. It was. It was. It was a really fascinating. If you're interested in human. Just like, humans, like, watching them do it and, like, for Jamie to share that. And also, I just felt, like, really proud of Jamie for he. He did this run earlier in the year and he spoke so much about, like, sharing your vulnerabilities. And it's one thing to talk about, to realize that's a really important thing to do. It's a really different thing to, like, be able to consistently do that. Yeah. And not go. If your whole life you've, like, not shared vulnerabilities, you're not gonna just suddenly, like, flick a switch and be able to just be doing that all the time. And, like, I struggle with that. I think we all do. I was gonna say. We absolutely do. And there's certain people that you learn to be vulnerable with, but it still takes a long time and, like, for Jamie to share that on the show with Spencer and, like, also throughout the whole year with his guests. The reason Jamie is so wonderful is that he. He opens people up and he disarms them and he charms them and he is so. Yeah, he shares so much. And I think he's a real. He's a real winner as our Jamie. Oh, yeah. He's special.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

He's really special.

[Producer Jemima]

Shall we see the little lad in action? Yeah. Should we have a look back? So we've gone through and we've picked some of our favourite moments of the year. And if this makes. If this piques your interest and you're like, oh, that sounds like a great interview, go back and listen to it. We've got an amazing archive of guests. Oh, it's honestly unmatched. Guys, you need to go back and listen, if you haven't already. So, without further ado, let's get into it.

[Kat Burns]

I get nervous for any sort of social interaction outside of singing. So if I'm on stage, I'm like, fine, but I'll be thinking about, oh, my God, who's going to be in my dressing room after the show that I'm going to have to speak to that. I don't know that I'm going to have to do some small talk with that.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I don't want to do. But hang on a second. Podcasting is just small talk, so.

[Kat Burns]

No, it's not. You can get deep.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Okay?

[Kat Burns]

You can. You can find a way to get deep.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

So that's so interesting.

[Kat Burns]

Yeah, I'm just not. I'm a. I'm an ADHD autistic girl. I have to. I need deep conversational.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I'm like that.

[Producer Jemima]

I have adhd.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I have adhd. Yeah. But I didn't really relate it to that.

[Kat Burns]

Yeah, that's. I can't do the small talk. That's why I struggle in, like, events, because most of the time, everyone's sort of looking through each other, not really having actual conversations. It's just sort of like, hey, you.

[Jessie J]

Right?

[Kat Burns]

And then just. You can't really get to the nitty gritty of anything. So I end up just not really saying anything because I'm like, well, there's no point me opening my mouth and saying anything because nobody's trying to have a proper conversation here.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

But explain that to me deeper, because what you feel, the lack of connection, you feel that. That small talk isn't where you're going to connect or more you. With small talk in those social situations, you don't know. You freeze almost. You don't really know what to.

[Kat Burns]

I have absolutely no idea what to say after, hey, how are you? I just sort of go.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Come on, let's. Let's try it together. Ready? So we pretend we're at an event here. We'll do some role play.

[Kat Burns]

Okay. All right, then.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

So I'm, by the way, and I'm your therapist. All right, all right, all right.

[Kat Burns]

This is my idea of hell on earth.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Okay. We're going to try it. Right? Because the way to get through things is exposing yourself.

[Kat Burns]

All right, then.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Okay, here we go. Right.

[Kat Burns]

I'm sweating.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

That's really nervous.

[Producer Jemima]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Oh, my God.

[Kat Burns]

Okay, I'm ready. All right, let's go.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I'm ready. I meant to make our guest comfortable, and what I've done is just push you further. More uncomfortable. Yeah. By the way, I'm just gonna make you more uncomfortable.

[Kat Burns]

Okay. I can do it.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I can do it.

[Kat Burns]

I'm literally 24. I need to know how to speak.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Okay, you ready?

[Reardon Maynard]

Hey.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Are you Kat Burns?

[Kat Burns]

I am, Yeah.

[Jessie J]

I am.

[Kat Burns]

Yeah. Hello.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Hey. So I love your music. I love what you do. Do you like what you do? Yeah, she was good. There we go.

[Kat Burns]

That wasn't good at all.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

That was quite good.

[Kat Burns]

I learned, though.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Okay. Yeah.

[Kat Burns]

I had a friend, and she said, if you ever meet somebody and they tell you they like your music and what? Just have a little script and just say, oh, thank you. What's your name? Said person will tell me their name. I'll Instantly forget. Because I cannot remember someone's name after about after. It's like the fifth time I'll remember your name.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Kat Burns]

So I usually go, thank you so much. What's your name? Have a nice day.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

In that order.

[Kat Burns]

That's. What if they say other things that fall out of that script for me, then I'll just sort of go, okay, but amazing.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

But then fine. Whatever I said to you said, hey, I. Sam, Jamie, you're Kevin's. Okay. You do music. I love that. What do you think the meaning of life is?

[Kat Burns]

Oh, that's fab.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

But see, that is mad.

[Kat Burns]

Absolutely fabulous. I love it.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Okay, so. So this is brilliant. So the small talk. Hey, how are you? So which most individuals, I suppose that meaningless conversation, right. Which is like fluff. That's quite tricky. But actually, if I was to say to you, what's the meaning of life? Or do you believe in God or what is really love? You'd be straight in there.

[Kat Burns]

Yeah. That to me is just like, oh, we're about to have a really beautiful conversation. Which is why I think people mistake. A lot of neurodivergent people always get told that they're flirting when really I'm just looking at you and asking you a deeper question and care about what you're saying to me, rather than just being like, oh, la la la, I actually want to know. Or usually, like, I'll ask a really deep question to someone, make them contemplate their whole existence, and then just frolic away into the distance.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Cat, you've just honestly opened up a whole light for me about my life.

[Kat Burns]

That's what I do.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

No, but I'm not even kidding you. This is exactly what I'm like. So it just a little, by the way, this podcast. You can interview me. I will. Okay, good. This is about me now. So I growing up, hectic kid, right. All those type of things. Got sort of diagnosed in a way with adhd. Kind of forgot it. Recently got re diagnosed because I wanted to understand it a little bit more.

[Kat Burns]

What do you mean you got red diagnosed?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Well, I went to. I. When I was younger, I went to a doctor who sort of said, yes, you have adhd, but it wasn't a thorough check. Recently I went and had a thorough check.

[Kat Burns]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And the sort of idea I got back was, you're off the scale type thing. And so, yeah. And I was like, okay, brilliant. What do I do with that? They offered medication. I said, I don't need. I don't want to take medication because I've been 36 years without it. But what you're saying is, then it's so interesting because I love going deep with people. It does something to my body, to my heart, to my endorphins, to something. I don't know what it is. And you're saying exactly the same thing, but we're saying that's an ADHD thing.

[Kat Burns]

It is. I think it's just, like, a desire to have, like. I just. I really. As much as people scare me, I do also love them, and I want to connect with people. And even if I am never going to see that person again, I would love for every interaction I have with someone to be meaningful or not have the interaction really at all. I just. I just find it hard. I don't like the fluff, which is why my mum will always be like, you're really nosy. Like, you'll just. I'll meet someone new and I'll come home and I'll be like, yeah. So they told me this, this, this, this, this, and all their childhood trauma. And she'll be like, how did you find that out? And I'm like, I just asked because I wanted to know.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I love that.

[Kat Burns]

Thank you.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

No, it's amazing. And I think that's so important. I love the fact that you want to connect with people. The reason I started this podcast is because it was about connection.

[Kat Burns]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And I feel like in a world where we're losing that connection because of devices and social media and stuff like that, it was about reconnecting in that space.

[Kat Burns]

Yeah. Because you never know what you're going to end up speaking about.

[Reardon Maynard]

So I get to the prison, and I'm the other thing that. I'm a avid smoker. My whole life I've smoked, and so I have my last cigarette, and I haven't smoked since. And that's one of the greatest gifts the IRS gave me. But I put it out feeling strangely okay.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Quite interested.

[Jessie J]

Yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

I don't know where I was mentally, but I was.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

I was straight. I was.

[Reardon Maynard]

I was all right. And then I go in to the Frison. Through the reception, through the metal detector, strip naked, get washed down. Like films. Just like the films with the hose. With the hose. Yeah. And then they put the jumpsuit on you. It's all just like the movies. And then they put you in a holding cell, and you can be in the hold. I was in the holding cell for about three hours, and that was the worst.

[Producer Jemima]

I can't.

[Reardon Maynard]

I mean, that was when I. I was hyperventilating then I suddenly realized I was in prison. That was the first time. Before that, I don't know where I was, frankly.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

No, you're not. You're too optimistic to even comprehend it.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, I don't know what was going on in my brain, but that was. I suddenly realized I wasn't coming out for a long time. This guy comes up to me and I'm. I'm scared. I don't know. Do you talk to people? Don't you talk to. I don't know anything. I've got no etiquette. I don't know what the rules are. Say this guy comes up to me, he goes, who do you run with? I said, I haven't been running yet. He said, no, no, no, no. He said, what car are you in? I said, what? He said, what? Oh, what group are you? What group are you with? I said, I haven't decided yet. I'm gonna have a look around, see which group. I genuinely said, he's looking at me like I'm fucking mental. I mean, he's like, can't compute. Anyway, it transpires that what he wants to know is which. Whether I'm with the white supremacists or whether I'm with the. The Crips or the Bloods or the Pisans or the. I mean, they have all these gangs. I mean, there's just gang after. That's how it runs. The whole system runs on gangs. I said. I said to him, I haven't got a clue. I said, I don't want to be in a gang. He said, you haven't got an option. You gotta be in a gang.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I'm going to start my own.

[Reardon Maynard]

I said. So I actually, quite successfully in that prison, avoided being in a gang.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

So you didn't go into a gang?

[Reardon Maynard]

No, because. Well, I was sort of part of this thing called the Others, which is basically. Which was really nice. It was all of the others who weren't particularly well represented. So I was in the minority for once in my life.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

What was your handshake? Did you have a secret handshake?

[Reardon Maynard]

No, there was no secret handshake, but we had little meetings. We did. They were. And they.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

They.

[Reardon Maynard]

They were lovely, I must say. I must say one of the things about prison that's quite interesting is how well organized it is, really at an inmate level. Not. Not. Not at an operation. Well, actually, I think the American prisons are run very well, I think, because it's a massive organization.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

As you can imagine, American prisons are also privately owned. So all the inmates are the customers.

[Reardon Maynard]

That's true. That's true.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Which is.

[Reardon Maynard]

Some are privately owned, some are state. Sorry. Some are federally owned.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Okay. But you're right, which seems counterproductive.

[Reardon Maynard]

It's odd. The private ones are odd because it's profit.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

It's profit. So more people you have in prison, the more profit you're making.

[Reardon Maynard]

Unfortunately, that is, they don't want you to leave, I can tell you that. They absolutely don't want. And if you leave, they want you to come back.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Did you ever have to fight anyone in prison? No, never.

[Reardon Maynard]

I got into a real pickle with a couple of guys. One of the problems I've got is I'm. I have no tolerance, especially for rudeness. I mean, disrespect and rudeness. Forget it. I mean, you'd think that a little chap like me who hasn't had a fight since he was at school would keep his mouth shut, but I can't keep my mouth shut. So these. There was this guy sitting on a bunk, sort of three or four bunks from me all day. He would go on and on about his life. You know, he's just shouting and talking loudly and making everyone listen to his business. All day, all day. I'm not joking. All day. So few days went by, and I think it was a Sunday or something. And I went up to him, I said, look, you're gonna have to shut the fuck up because you're driving me insane. And also, no one in this place wants to know your business. We don't want to know what's going. You keep. You have your conversation with your. Whoever you're having the conversation. I'll have my conversation with whoever I'm having. We don't need to hear about your life. I went awful. I completely lost it. And then I walked off. And then I was doing the. At the time, they. We were on lockdown, and I was in a dormitory environment. And the only way you could get exercise was to walk around. I mean, it's mindless. Walk around the beds. So then I continued to walk around the feds. Anyway, this guy with his mate. And these guys are massive. They come up. They come up to me, push. Not physically, but they move me by moving themselves into a corner. And they said, no one tells us what to do in our prison. And I said, oh, I'm terribly sorry. I'm new. I don't know any of the rules. All I know is that you look like much. You look much too intelligent to think that it's acceptable to be shouting around if all 140 of us shout all day. Anyway, I went on, calmed them down, but they. But they. They were really gonna beat the shit out of me. And the. The. The one that I challenged said at the end, you know I'm in here for murder, don't you? I can't control my temper. I said, actually, I didn't know. I didn't know that, but it's good to know. Thanks. And then off they went and we. It calmed down. That was my most. And then there were other instances where my gang had. You know, you would. Not mine. The one that I was in. No, no, this is later.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Oh, you're in a new gang?

[Reardon Maynard]

Oh, I had to go into the whites. When you go into a proper place, you have to go into your race, really.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

It's all very race.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Wait, hang on. So you then get moved this in Pennsylvania?

[Reardon Maynard]

No. So then I'm. I'm in California. So in California, I had experienced this terrible despair.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

I mean, proper, like depression anxiety. Extraordinary. And I've never had that before. So it was quite. I mean, in retrospect, quite valuable. And then.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Can I ask just a really awful question before. Do lots of people take their own life in prison?

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, all the time. All the time, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Because it's just.

[Reardon Maynard]

It's not uncommon at all. Yeah. I mean, you. And you can sort of see them going. But you can't do much about it. You become very mercenary. You don't really. Nothing really phases you, really. Yeah.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

Wow. Yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

I mean, I had someone beaten to death in front of me with a lock in a sock. Yeah. I mean, it's like. You can't believe it. It's like.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

Yeah.

[Reardon Maynard]

I mean, it's just. It's surreal. I can't even con. I can't even process that I was in there. Yeah. So you become very.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And you. You can't do anything.

[Reardon Maynard]

No, you mustn't do anything. You absolutely mustn't.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Why?

[Reardon Maynard]

Well, because it conflicts with lots of rules. They have all sorts of rules about fighting and. Which, frankly, all makes sense.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Explain that to me.

[Reardon Maynard]

You basically, you're organized into gangs of. They call them cars. People that you ride with. That's why they call it a car.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

So it's like school when you get put into houses, basically.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, it's very similar. And it organizes itself. It's a bit like Lord of the Flies. It basically organizes itself with the toughest at the top and the weakest at the bottom.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

That's how it's done on Toughest.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah. I mean, or I suppose most influential. And so you're in the. The gangs and then there's two options. You either if I wanted to fight you, I can have a fight with you one to one. But if anyone else gets involved, like if one of your mates from your gang helps you, then it becomes a gang, a group affair. So there's quite a lot of one off fights. There's not many all in fights.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

Wow.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

So there are rules.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah, loads of rules. You can't believe how many rules. I mean. And that's how it runs. Because the guards.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

It is quite smartly done.

[Reardon Maynard]

It's very, very good. Yeah. And it's. That's one of the things when you get to know it, that makes it doable because the unknowns gently disappear and you start to feel a bit more in control.

[Jessie J]

I feel like for the biggest blessings that I've had in my life that are massive, I have to have balance. Like there has to be balance in my life.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Explain that to me.

[Jessie J]

Oh, no. I really want to tell you, but I don't know if I can.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Why does. I'm.

[Jessie J]

Because it's a really big thing that I haven't told anyone and it's very personal. But I just don't know. This is the moment. I'm going to share it. I may cry. I probably won't.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Don't worry. If you cry, that'll send me to the edge as well. So I'll be with you.

[Jessie J]

So I was diagnosed with early breast cancer seven weeks ago. Right. And I haven't told anyone.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Buddy, I'm so sorry. Okay, so. So, Jesse, we recorded an episode.

[Jessie J]

Yes, we did.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Before. And you're now back again to record another episode.

[Jessie J]

I just love it so much.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I know, man. That's what I'm. That's what I'm hoping that you just really enjoy.

[Jessie J]

I enjoyed it so much that I pretended I didn't like the last one so I could do it again.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Why didn't you like the last one?

[Jessie J]

No, it wasn't. I didn't like it. Just a lot of the things that we spoke about, especially with the, the breast cancer, it just changed that. My diagnosis was a little different and I just knew how important that conversation was. Yeah. I realized that the journey wasn't there yet and I felt I owed it to myself just to kind of act on my instinct and go, I think I should do that again when I'm a bit further down the line.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

So how are you feeling?

[Jessie J]

10 out of 10? No, I'm. I'm Okay. Yeah.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

But you.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I feel like you're always say you're okay, which is fine. Like, no, no.

[Jessie J]

I mean, I had my days, like, yesterday I sobbed because I miss my boy, my boys. I can't be a mum. Like, I want to be a mum. And I feel robbed. I feel like that's the only biggest negative thing. I'll start with the worst thing as I feel like cancer's robbed me of memories with my boy. And anyone that has a toddler knows that they change so much in that time. And you blink and he's like, chatting.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

You say you feel, like, a little bit anxious about what you were saying last time, which I kind of understand. You came on and you were in this headspace and you kind of just been diagnosed with cancer.

[Jessie J]

Yeah, I think I had. So I was diagnosed on 31st March.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yes, it was around that time.

[Jessie J]

And when. No, it was May. It was like eight weeks later that I came here. Right.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Was it really?

[Jessie J]

Yeah. So it was almost two months later.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And it felt like it was the first time you told, like a.

[Jessie J]

It was the first time I told anybody in the world, like, other than friends and family. That would have been a public knowledge thing.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Was that scary?

[Jessie J]

No, it was really nice. And I could hear it, that I was just over. I just the adrenaline running through my body. But I think also just because I was, I had. If I'm honest, how do I word this? Whenever you're kind of diagnosed with something or you go through something as someone that's in the public eye, people often give you kind of a bit of a. Like a flag to wave at the front of the queue to, like, represent everybody behind you.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah.

[Jessie J]

And I felt that I was like in autopilot doing that with the breast cancer, when I actually just wanted to be someone that was in the back of the line watching someone else that had already kind of gone through it, that had that knowledge and understanding to do that for me. And I think that the way I was talking about it when I was listening was if was already as if I'd gone through it and I hadn't. And I almost wanted to let myself be a bit more scared and sad.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

How do you articulate that to family? Because I just. You know, when something like that happens and you get diagnosed with something, I think your immediate thing, which I noticed when you said to me first, is to go straight to humor. Because you want to. You want to.

[Jessie J]

Even now.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah, even now. You just. Let's make it funny. I don't want people to fast. Let's go to humor.

[Jessie J]

Yeah. I mean, I think humor's always good, is always my thing. It's not. I don't think I use it as a defense mechanism. I just think it's my personality. Doesn't mean that some days aren't awful.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah.

[Jessie J]

You know, and I don't let the closest people into me. That sounded good.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

The closest people realize what you're.

[Jessie J]

Yeah, go for. My mum knows that. My boyfriend knows. Like, some of my best friends know. The whole world doesn't need to see that all the time.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

But also, Jesse just. I'm gonna say because, like, I don't know why, after last time we spoke, I feel like a real. This sounds so cheesy, but I feel like a real connection to you. And I don't know why. I'm not kidding. I don't know why. I do.

[Jessie J]

I love that.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I swear to God, I don't know why. And this is going to sound cheesy, but you. You don't have to be brave. Like, I just start crying and pouring all over my face, but you. You don't have to be. And I think you've been. You got diagnosed with cancer. You. Then when you spoke about it with me, right. You were being, like, very joking. Like, oh, this and that. Which is. I get that. That's a media thing that I would do, and I understand that. And then you've gone through this whole process right now of, you know, and we're gonna talk about what you've been through, but you're sort of in this moment now. And I still feel like you're like, no, we just gotta keep moving going on.

[Jessie J]

And you know what I think it is? I feel like I had had two months to process it. So when I spoke about it with you, yeah, I had cried and I had been scared, and I was like, I'm gonna die. There was moments where I was like, this is gonna go left and I'm gonna die. And I had those moments. And I think anyone that gets diagnosed with cancer at any level or anything, when you. In the unknown. At that point, I didn't know if I was gonna have to have extensive treatment, what it was gonna be. So I think when I listened back to it, I almost felt guilty that I was robbing people, like my fans, my friends, my family time to understand. Cause I knew that that was gonna come out very closely to me talking about it. And it wasn't gonna give much of a window for people to process it. And it was actually something my PR said to me, that sounds so cliche, but, you know, he's doing his job where he just said, like, people really care about you, Jess, and this is gonna hurt a lot of people. And that isn't for you to manage. But I just felt like the way I was talking about it. Cause I had known about it for eight weeks and I was still going through all the tests and like, I still had more results that came in after we talked last time. That changed things that we'd talked about.

[Producer Jemima]

That.

[Jessie J]

I didn't give them the chance to process it. Does that make sense? I think maybe that was one of the things that I was talking about with humor already, because I'd gone through the sad and the light. But also.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Is that what happens?

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

You do.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I just don't talk about the last two months. So the last time we met, you've been diagnosed. You then. Since then, you've had surgery.

[Jessie J]

So when I saw you, I can't even remember where I was at. I think I was in the. I was. I was in the process. So the last test that I had was a genetic testing. So basically, what does that mean? So I found a lump. I went and got checked. They said, we can feel and see the lump, but on the ultrasound it looks fine. So that. That. That was, you know. So they said, we'll send you for a mammogram or do you want to get a biopsy?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And I said, well, and what's a mammogram?

[Jessie J]

So a mammogram is where they basically squash your boob into a machine.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah.

[Jessie J]

And basically, I think it's like an. I don't want to say it's an X ray, but it's like they just do a pict of it. So from the side, I couldn't even fit my boob in the screen. It was literally like. It was like shutting her like a yogurt covered apricot into a door. And I was like. She was like, can you go in anymore? I've got nothing left. There's no boob left. And I was. Me and the nurse were crying, laughing. It was like. She was like. I was actually holding onto the machine, like, you all right, babes? You good?

[Kat Burns]

Yeah.

[Jessie J]

Literally, she's like, can you go in anymore? And I was like, there's nothing there.

[Kat Burns]

And she was.

[Jessie J]

And I was. And I was laughing so much. She was like, try and stay still.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And what's going through your mind at that time?

[Jessie J]

Well, this.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

You're laughing.

[Jessie J]

But let me just go back to what I was Saying, so I don't go off on a tangent 100%.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I'll do that, and I'll do that back.

[Jessie J]

So I had the ultrasound that was clear. And then luckily they sent me for a biopsy first, because the mammogram came back clear. So if I'd have had that second, I don't know what would have happened. Like, whether I would have just not had any further treatment and that would have been it. And then it would have got bad.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Wow.

[Jessie J]

Really bad. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

That can happen.

[Jessie J]

Well, yeah, of course. And I'm lucky that I. I'm very aware that I'm very lucky that I can have private health care. So.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

Wow.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I didn't even know that was.

[Jessie J]

Yeah. So usually the.

[Producer Jemima]

The.

[Jessie J]

The usual course is ultrasound, mammogram, and then anything.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah.

[Jessie J]

So because I have young ish breast tissue, it looked healthy. This is what they've told me. This isn't me.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Got it?

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Yeah.

[Jessie J]

You know, so because of my symptoms, so I had, like, a really achy arm. My arm felt like it was made of lead. And I had. I'd always have pins and needles every morning, like, when I woke up, I couldn't feel my hand every day.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And how long was that for? Can I say that?

[Jessie J]

Five months.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And you just didn't go and get a check. You just would just wake up every day. I just thought.

[Jessie J]

I don't know, because I was working out, so I was like, maybe I'm just getting blinched. And I just thought. I was like. It was just the workouts, and I felt healthy. I was like. I was good. So I didn't think of anything of it. I was just kind of like, maybe it's my muscles. I know, silly. And I was busy. I was preparing. I just moved back from America. I was moving house. I've got a toddler.

[Kat Burns]

Like, you're just.

[Jessie J]

You're just doing life, you know, Life. And so because of that, they said, let's do a biopsy and just do it. And they were like, the only appointment we've got is 28 March. And it was the morning after my birthday, and I was like, let's do it, big girl pants. I'm 37. Let's be brave. And so I randomly blogged it. So I filmed myself going to the appointment, just going. Found a lump. And so I filmed the biopsy, and, like, my boyfriend was there, and I did that and that. And she said, I'm gonna phone you on Monday if it's not good news or I'll, like, to tell you. And I was like, okay, fine. This was on, I think it was a Friday, I think. And then my boyfriend and my son actually went to Denmark for a little trip for a week and I was at home.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Are you spending the weekend nervous? What are you feeling?

[Jessie J]

No, I was just cracking on with things on my to do list.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Wow.

[Jessie J]

Just, I can't. I don't worry about things that haven't happened. There's no point, I think that would.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Consume me all weekend.

[Jessie J]

No, there's no point. Because until you get told, like, you're just wasting energy. And I was doing the B, I was talking to the baftas, I was busy, I was doing meetings. I was everywhere. I was sitting with Spotify and Apple and we were preparing for a launch. No one even knew this was happening. I hadn't even told any of my team at this point that I went to get a biopsy. I was just like, it's gonna be fine. They literally was said to me, it's gonna be fine. It's a cyst. It won't be anything. It doesn't. And so she, I literally was come off a call with the baftas talking about my performance and she texted me saying, can you zoom really quick? So I'm thinking, oh, it's gonna be nothing. Cause it's a zoom. But it was Monday, so I was like. And it was six o', clock. So I was like, okay. So I was like jumped on the call and she was like, are you sitting down? And I literally went, ah. And I was like, yeah. And she went, I'm really sorry, but it's all come back as like high grade cancer cells. And I just burst into tears. You know, that was my normal. That, that was a healthy reaction. So those moments, it's not like I'm like, you're making a joke. You know what I mean? I'm not. I reacted like anyone else would and I just burst into tears. And I think because I was like convinced it wasn't going to be anything and everyone had told me it wasn't. Like, even my friends that I told I'd had a biopsy done were like, oh, it'll be nothing. Like my friend had that last month and it was nothing. So I was like, yeah, yeah, kind of pooh poohed that. I was like thinking it could be something. And so obviously they kind of tell you the result and then they'll be like, we'll be in touch. That's when you're just like, right, so what happens next? And they reach Out. And then I had an mri, and that was what was the. I'm claustrophobic. And with a breast one, you have to lay on your front with your, like, boobs in a little bucket. I mean, mine was a little bucket. And then they inject you with dye at the end, and then they, like, can see everything but you. I mean, I was in there for probably 25, 30 minutes. And they asked you. Yeah. And then they asked you what music you want, but you're on your front, so you're looking down to just, like, a plastic bottom, so. Oh. And I picked Bob Marley, because that's what I gave birth to. The machine and Bob Marley. We might have talked about this last time, but those two things at the same time. Oh, my. It was like, everything's gonna. And I was literally just laying there going, what do I zone into? Do I zone into the machine or Bob Marley? And I just had to talk myself, like, off a panic attack the whole time. I know that that was the worst. That was one of the worst bits of all of this.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Oh, yes.

[Jessie J]

It was awful. And I was like, I hate MRIs. I hate them. And I feel claustrophobic, and I couldn't move. And I've got my arms up, and they're just like. And I take a deep breath, and they'd be like, try and stay still. And I'm like.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And you're trying not to panic, and you're just fighting that. That thing's just right there.

[Jessie J]

Do you want us to give you something to calm you down? I was like, nah, that ain't a bit of me. Let me just ride this raw dog. Like, I just sent me raw dog. The mri.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Are you serious? You don't.

[Spencer Matthews]

You just win?

[Jessie J]

No. Nothing. No, I hate it. Any. Like, melatonin. I just don't like anything. I like to feel what I'm feeling and deal with it.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Good on you, Jesse.

[Jessie J]

So I was laying there, did that, and then when the results of those came back, it showed that I had. It was about four and a half, five centimeters of cancer and a lump at the bottom. And then I also had more here and at the top. And so I then decided to get a second opinion to a lot of people's advice.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah, that's it.

[Jessie J]

And I found a doctor that I really liked. And then so he wanted to repeat some of the tests, but also test the other cancer that had been found to make sure it was the same kind of cancer as the other one. And that was when I had. I had that test. Those Biopsies done the night before Ronnie's Scott, that I did my industry showcase. So it was. That was when I was in pain and I was just so uncomfortable and I. I had my outfit already picked out and I didn't. I couldn't be bothered to change it. So you could just see the plasters. I was trying not to lift my.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Arm up and you're just doing it.

[Jessie J]

Yeah, because I wanted to. I was so excited. I was, you know what? And I said to the beginning of this, like, there's a bit of me that feels like I go through these things to write music. But then I also feel like the whole thing might already be written and happening and the reason it happens alongside me putting out music is so that it brings me enough joy to do the sad thing. Does that make sense? Do you know how much I love my job? Like, this isn't like a, oh, I'm going on a promo run or I'm doing it. I love it. I love it. I love connecting with people. I love singing and I love making music. I love writing songs. I love making people feel stuff. Like. So for me, it was like, that got me through. So then after the mri, I had the mammogram, which was just hysterical. Me and the nurse just cracking up, laughing.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Why? Because.

[Jessie J]

Because of the nina.

[Producer Jemima]

Yeah.

[Jessie J]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And what are you feeling mentally? What are you feeling at this point? You're just cracking on.

[Jessie J]

I was so busy with work that, if I'm honest, I didn't have a lot of time to process it. And I know that there was like.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Do you think that's a good thing? Maybe.

[Jessie J]

Good and bad. Which is one of the reasons I wanted to tell the world.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah.

[Jessie J]

But I didn't know when. And I kept recording the video and then not having time to like edit it and put it out. And then I was, I don't want to edit it. But then it was like, how do I make this, like a 30 second video to explain it? And then I kept making jokes or I'd burst into tears. And I literally had like 16 different videos of different days where I was like, right, I've got five minutes, I'm in between promo. I just want to let you guys know that this has happened. And then I was talking like I was in an interview because I was doing interviews.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And it was just because you can't feel.

[Jessie J]

It was so disconnected. And I was just like, okay, let me just wait until this happens organically.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Can I ask you a question on that as well? Because. Because you. I would say you're a bit like all of us. You're a workaholic for sure. You love what you do. Like, you enjoy it so much that when. When you have. When you're in this moment, you're like, no, this, I can't. I have to keep doing this.

[Jessie J]

But also when you've worked so hard to get to that point, like, this wasn't like a two, two week, let's put out a song. And like, this was like years in the making of, like, even just rebuilding the foundations of my life.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah.

[Jessie J]

Like, my team, my comfort. Like, not my confidence. Like, my. My value in, like, and just finding the joy. Like, these songs were five years old, so I'd gone through, like, left my label and gone through the legal stuff. And I was like, I'm not gonna just put this aside and sit at home and cry, because that's what other people would do. And then when I met, when I saw you. Yeah, it was right before Summertime Ball.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah. You're the mix of everything.

[Jessie J]

So I was. I knew I was. At some point, I was like, I almost want to do a podcast or an interview where it will force me to tell people. And I hadn't planned to come here and tell you.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Yeah.

[Jessie J]

But if you listen to the opening of the podcast, it feels like you're literally been told to, like, gear me up to tell you nothing. No, I know.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I knew nothing.

[Jessie J]

And so then I went up kind of. I hadn't really prepared to talk to you about it.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And also, we just first met, so I really didn't know.

[Jessie J]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

But you was like, how do you.

[Jessie J]

Deal with hard things in your life? And I was like, you know, but.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I think it was just. It was like that word vomit just comes out because you just want to.

[Jessie J]

Say it, and it was just an open tab and you're like, so desperate to tell someone. And I think I just got to a point where I'm going to talk about it, but I wasn't there yet to talk about it. Like, I did. And so it's only been eight weeks.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And so since then, you said you had a new. The diagnosis.

[Jessie J]

New doctor. Yeah, so it wasn't a new diagnosis. It was just that I just got more understanding of what it was. So there was more cancer around my breast than I thought there was. And then I had to have genetic testing, which takes four and a half weeks to come back the results. So I think that's when I spoke to you. So I was in a period of time where I Was waiting to see if I carried any breast cancer genes, and that would determine whether I was having a single or double mastectomy. So I always was having this one taken off, and then this one I've kept because I didn't carry any jeans. So it was just the. You know, the. The gene doctor was just like, it's just unlucky. It's just one of those things when you.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

When you share the diagnosis on socials. You did that. What was the response?

[Jessie J]

Oh, it was so nice.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Isn't that I saw it as amazing.

[Jessie J]

You know what was beautiful is I believe in, like, love and joy and happiness and people being good people and wanting to care. And so the media was obviously the thing that swum around my head.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

But. But I do. I do think even though being diagnosed with cancer, you still going doing Summertime Ball and Ronnie Scott.

[Jessie J]

But what other person in life. I can tell you now, I wish everyone that has ever been diagnosed with anything scary got to experience what I did at Summertime Ball. Cause that was nothing to do with me being Jessie J. That was just people wanting to give me a hug.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Oh, man. That's like.

[Jessie J]

You know what I'm saying? Like, when I watch that back, it makes me cry every time when I say it. Cause you can see it. I mean, I saw me being little Jessica. That wasn't Jessie J. When I said, this is my last show before I go and beat breast cancer, and I pull this face and I go like this. Because I haven't said it out loud. I hadn't said that out loud. Like, 80,000 people. And everyone just erupted with joy and love. And I just was like, I'm gonna sing this next song now. Like, I just. Cause I knew I'd just lose it. But that feeling, that. That euphoria, that, like, energy, like, everyone that was there in that space, my team, my family, my friends, strangers, young, old people holding up posters saying, like, we love you. You're gonna beat this. You've got, like, we've got you. I've beat it three times. And it was just. It was the most.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yikes. That's like. Hit me. Is like, yeah.

[Jessie J]

And it wasn't me being Jesse. It wasn't me. I wasn't getting that love because I'm Jessie J. I was getting that love because people are kind to people.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah.

[Jessie J]

And I felt like when I was being put to sleep, it was that moment that I was playing in my head because it was an unimaginable amount of love that I received in that 25 minutes I was on stage but in that moment, oh my God. It was overwhelming. It was. And then to sing living my best life. You know what I mean? And then price tag and just see the like everyone just loving it and like we're all just humans trying to get through this crazy thing called life.

[Producer Jemima]

Yeah. Big news. Boost Mobile is now sending experts nationwide to deliver and set up customers new.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Phones at home or work.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Wait, we're going on tour?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Not a tour.

[Producer Jemima]

We're delivering and setting up customers phones so it's easier to upgrade.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Let's get in the tour bus and hit the road.

[Producer Jemima]

No, not a tour bus.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

It's a regular car we use to.

[Producer Jemima]

Deliver and set up customers phones at home or work.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Are you a groupie on this tour?

[Producer Jemima]

We deliver and set up phones. It's not a tour.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Oh, you're definitely a groupie.

[Producer Jemima]

Introducing store to door switch and get.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Producer Jemima]

Delivery wherever you're at.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

Delivery available for select devices [e-mail] this.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

You a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the of gift gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half. The service admit is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price.

[Producer Jemima]

So that means a half day. Yeah.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

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[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Your relationship with your dad is so thick for you right in in so many incredible ways.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

It's the story that I told myself about myself and when that story goes you got to tell yourself a new story. And that's really hard when you're 38 as I was when he died. My dad, the thing about it was that was so shocking so I didn't think he was going to die. I I, he was 76, annoying, had that slightly kind of elder sort of tedious thing where he hated medicine and doctors and he had type 2 diabetes. And out of nowhere he got pneumonia and he went in and he went into intensive care for five weeks. And it was the worst five weeks of my life. And at the end it looked like he was getting a bit better. It was a time of omicron, so he couldn't visit. And that was the thing that was so hard about it. And suddenly all of the crap for five weeks, the infections he was getting, the tubes, the pipes, his kidneys weren't working and it was all too much. Yeah, he had a catastrophic heart attack.

[Jessie J]

That.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

And if I'm honest, yeah, that was three years ago last week. It's still really, really raw, you know. And last Friday I went to the place in Chiswick in West London where I first came in this. I was born in India and lived in Chiswick from the age of three to seven. I went with my mum and we looked at this house and we talked about all the memories of being there and it was incredible. And then I went back to Tooting and there's. Which is where my parents house is in South London. And there's just a picture of my dad and he's smiling and there's something about that which I just. It kills me, man, it kills me. And, you know, my dad was, you know, I think we'd nowadays probably medicalize it and say he was depressed for years. He was a downbeat guy, an introvert. But there's something about when someone is your dad and they're a downbeat person and you have kind of private access to them smiling. There's something about when they smile at you. It's so overwhelming. And, yeah, I went to pieces. And if I'm honest, you know, it's a weird thing to know how blessed and how lucky you are. You know, I've won the lottery so many times in my life and all the big things, I'm paid really well, I have a fantastic job and yet to feel in a bit of a funk. And I was so unprepared for grief and I've been in such a pit of grief for such a long time and one of the things that I really want to do, both by talking about it, is to tell other people that this is coming. Your parents are going to die, man, and it's going to be. You think it's going to be bad, it's going to be a million times worse than you think it's going to be and you have to get ready for it.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I don't think I'm prepared for that.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

You can't prepare for it. But the one thing you can do, which I know you've talked about a bit, is you can make sure that you minimize the regret. And what do you mean by that? Well, you say the things you need to say. A couple of years ago, before my dad died, I decided to go on a little walk with my dad and I asked him some really basic questions. You know, dad, are you happy with how things have turned out? Do you feel like the sacrifices you and mum made in coming to this country? You know, he was 41, the age I am now, when he ripped himself away from kind of everything that was familiar and beloved, you know, do you feel it came out? And yeah, my dad didn't say, you know what, son, I'm proud of you, and it was absolutely justified. But he kind of intimated that and I'm so glad I did that walk. And there are certain places I wanted to go with him. You know, I've got a son called Winston. Me and my dad were both very interested in Churchill. I really wanted to go to the house in Kent where Churchill spent most of his life with him. I didn't get to do that. And so if there are things that you want to do with your parents and you're lucky enough to have your parents around, you've got to do those things.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Did you say goodbye to him?

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

No. And the thing that. One of the things that upsets me most is that you had this five weeks where. Cause it was Covid and Omicron and so many people who had ill relatives in that period, particularly elderly relatives, will know visiting times were really screwed up. So you had to book it in with this. There was this wonderful nurse who was. She had an iPad schedule and you'd get to talk to him on an iPad. And he. Because he went into a coma, he never really came round. So we didn't really get to talk to him and he moved to this other ward. And I remember saying to my son, watching some God awful tv, I remember saying to my son, by the way, Granddad's getting better. And my son was on some. He was in a bit of a chat box and he was ranting about something and as I said this, he just stopped and went, yes. And I tell you, that meant toast meant so much to me, man. That really meant so much to me because in that moment I knew that he had a relationship with my dad dead. And yeah, just sucks that after that he didn't get to get to see him. And the funeral itself, even more painful than the Day he died. There's a famous poem called Elegy written in a country churchyard, which I can do mostly by. Mostly verbatim. It's all about the kind of nobility and brilliance of the poor. And I can do it verbatim. And I always wanted to make sure I delivered it without having to look at the notes. But on the day, I just went to complete pieces. And in a way, that was when I said goodbye, when I kind of read this poem to him.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

What is the poem? So I'm getting like, this is.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Oh, mate. The poem is Thomas Gray. And at Stoke Poges in Buckinghamshire, which is in a churchyard, Thomas Gray, this is the mid 18th century, looks at all these gravestones and he basically does this long poem where he talks about how history shouldn't forget the bravery and the brilliance of these people. I mean, I could do it from the top. One or two particularly important stanzas, he goes, let not ambition mock their useful toil Their homely joys and destiny obscure Nor grandeur here with a disdainful smile. The short and simple annals of the poor, the boast of heraldry, the pomp of power and all that beauty, all that wealth ever gave, Await to, like the inevitable hour, the paths of glory lead back to the grave. And there's a particular stanza where my dad. The story of my dad's life, which is why it's so ironic that I present University Challenge. So my dad was a genius. He was, like, off the scale clever and. But my dad was. So. He's one of 11 children. He had six sisters and he was extraordinarily clever. He's the only one of the 11 that left India. But he couldn't pursue his academic ambitions because he had to get his sisters married. You know, this is 60s and 70s India. And so he asked his father if he could pursue a, you know, further studies. His father slapped him around quite a bit and said, you've got to get your sisters married. But there's a very particular stanza which is the most important to me, where he talked about chilled Pinuri, because chill penury, like extreme poverty, stopped him doing what he wanted, and it stopped him pursuing knowledge with a capital K. And there's a stanza in Grey's Elegy where he says, but knowledge to their eyes, her ample page, rich with the spoils of time, never did unroll. Chill penury repressed their noble rage and froze the genial current of the soul. And that idea, that one stanza combines the knowledge with a capital K and chill penury. And, you know, I Would have just loved to University Challenge, which I am so proud to do, is about knowledge with a capital K. And that pursuit of knowledge, which brought him halfway across the world because he wanted his kids to get a great education. That's what University Challenge embodies. And so I feel that by presenting that program, which I would, you know, work really hard at, I want to do really well, want to do for a long time, if I'm lucky, I feel like I kind of fulfilled some of his sacrifice, and yet he wasn't there to see it. And that sucks, man.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Thank you for sharing that, dude, honestly, again, yeah, man.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Mate, thank you for bringing out. I'm rambling, man. No, Are you kidding me?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Keep rambling. Are you kidding? This is everything. But, but it's so, so it's beautiful, right? That, that firstly, it's so beautiful that you have that relationship with your father. Yeah, like, I would try that, man. Like, are you kidding me?

[Kat Burns]

For.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

For so many years in my twenties, I just. Just ignore my parents and I was just a. And I just, you know, I miss Christmases because I wanted to do more fun things and I just didn't do anything.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

And you still got time, man. Yeah, I know, but still got time, you know, repairing.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

But, But I, But I now realize this family is just everything.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

It's.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

It's. It's. It's completely everything in so many beautiful ways.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

So if I called you tomorrow and said, jamie, I'm really sorry, but dad's got cancer and he's got three months to live, what would you.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Got me? So I would probably say to him, because I have a cute. Oh, I have huge guilt towards my dad.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Well, mate, you've still got time to fix things, you know, You've still got time to fix things. You know, you've won the lottery, right? Listening to you and seeing how you feel about it, like, it's obviously incredibly important. That guilt that you feel towards your dad is obviously a very big part of how you think about your relationship with him. Let me just. From. From my pocket. Let me just take out this absolutely amazing gift I've got for you. Here it is. I've got this gift. Look on the table. It's called time with your dad.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

There it is. Right? You've got it. You've got it. Most people don't have that time with their dad. Yeah, you've got it.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah. And the reason why I had that is because. I, I sort of had a narrative in my. Look, my parents got divorced and you've.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Sort of come to understand that as you get older.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And I think that I. Jesus Christ. I've never spoken about this. What the hell's going on?

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Well, maybe he's going to listen to.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

This and I hope he doesn't, because. Yeah, I don't know, but I feel guilt because I blamed him for a lot. It wasn't his fault.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Maybe it was his fault.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

It wasn't as much as I thought it was. And, you know, I said things and, you know.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Yeah, but you said sorry to him.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

No, no, I said I love him.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Well, why have you not said sorry to him? Mate, do it, man. If you think.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

If. Hang on.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

It's got to be sincere. It's got to be.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I'm so sorry. Because. Because it would be admitting to myself that I was just a. A bit of an idiot for a long time.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

You just admitted it to me.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I know, but it's easier. Don't know why.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

The fact that it's easier makes it even more important. You do it to your dad.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Listen, if you are.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

If you do feel guilt and you feel you want to say sorry to your dad, what an amazing conversation to have. And I can tell you, mate, that thing where I said, you got. You just got three months to live, I'm afraid. How old's your dad?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

74.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Right, right. One of the things about grief and death is old age is like the sun in the solar system of old age, of diseases. Right. If you're 74, you're gonna get something at some point. I really hope he's around for 20 years. I hope he's fit, healthy. I hope there's no dementia outside.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And he's a brilliant. He's what? I didn't realize that was so deep in me. I didn't. He is like a magical human. Like, I spoke before I spoke to you. I said I was interviewing you and he watched you last night. He was watching you and he said that he was just proud.

[Kat Burns]

Yeah.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

We should call him. I won't ask you to do that when you're crying. I could join to call him at some point.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I don't think I could do that.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Because I think maybe there's a conversation.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

That was in me. All the therapy I've done. What the hell's going on? Never let that out. That's crazy.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

I think there's maybe a conversation that you and your dad want to have at some point. Mate, what a beautiful thing. I think it's a wonderful.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

How.

[Kat Burns]

How.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

What a. I mean, mate, you've just won the lottery. Because you realize that while you still got the chance to do something about it.

[Producer Jemima]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Which is. Which is. It's. It's a beautiful thing.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

He could get. He could get a heart attack like that today. He's 74.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

My grandfather died around. That's sort of similar age.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Well, what a spur to action. What an amazing, amazing thing. How's your relationship with your mom?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

My relationship?

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

I see her on Instagram.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

She's great. She's fine. And she's. She's a. She's a bulldog. And she's like, you know, she's just strong and she'll live to 200, I think. Like, honestly, she's fine. But. But it's.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

It's.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I think what happens when parents get divorced, like, this is my experience is as kids, you're. You're confused, and so you probably blame an individual when you. It takes two to tango. Yeah, yeah, of course. I was very much a mommy's boy. Right. And so you lean towards the mum's side, and then as you get older, you go, fuck. You know, to blame a parent when you don't understand it and you don't. And my dad has never. My dad has never spoken any ill about my mom or ever.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

What a hero.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Never.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

I bet there's a moment. I got it. Be so wonderful to talk to him about it. I bet there's a moment.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Jeez, I want to say this.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

I bet there's a moment when he just. I mean, if that's the case, what you say is true, as I'm sure it is, he would have made that decision at a time when he was hurting. I mean, I've never met your dad, but I tell you what, he's got a moral depth to him there that's immediate and obvious. And I just think, what a thing, man. I mean, what a thing. If anyone listening to this, if you've got the chance to chat to your parents before they go about the stuff that matters, do it. Because I tell you, I mean, you said this. You said this in your chat with pj. Towards the end, when you're talking about how it's like it was with the girl that you didn't kiss.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Oh, yeah.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

And then you were like, I should have just. I should have just kissed her. Yeah, I should have just kissed her. Because the regret later, what happened? You didn't kiss her.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I didn't kiss her. And then it was my sort of.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

You told yourself, she's like, what are you doing? I'm just gonna kiss again.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

So ever since then, you've been lunching. It's my metaphor for life, though, right? It's my metaphor for life, like. And I've always lived by this. Is that the regret I felt by not kissing her? I was like, what was I. I was fearing rejection, failure, all these different things, and it would have been over with, and who would get. So I thought, well, I'm never gonna. I'm never. I don't want to ever regret something I've never done, so I'm gonna go and try and do everything.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Well, the conversation with your dad is, like, a billion times more important than not kissing that girl, by the way. I feel sorry for her, man. She missed out on a kiss from Jamie Lang. A young Jamie was ready to smooch over. And they'd be queuing up for that now. As you know.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

We did Made in Chelsea together, and you and I, like, like, grew up together from 1920. Well, let's call it 21, 22 to 30. You and I were pretty much thick as thieves.

[Reardon Maynard]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I'd speak to you every day. I would see you most days. We'd do everything together. And then somehow along the line, it changed. And I want to know, like, why do you think that happened?

[Kat Burns]

It's.

[Spencer Matthews]

It's a really good question. And to be honest, like, I don't regularly socialize with anyone, really. I think when we used to spend a huge amount of time together, we would also work together.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Right.

[Spencer Matthews]

We were on Made in Chelsea. We would see each other a lot. We would do Made in Chelsea, New York. Jesus Christ.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

But we did. But we had a friendship. We had a friendship for 20 years. We get into that. We had a friendship for 20 years. It's like a big deal. And then I. For me, I'll. I'll let you know. For me, what happened is, like, like, we. I had the. My English wedding and you weren't invited to it, and that, like, kicked off stuff to, like, not make his friends.

[Spencer Matthews]

I have to. I. I have to say I found. I found it pretty confusing. I don't need to spend this time going into stuff like that if you don't want.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

But, like, look, you can. I don't.

[Spencer Matthews]

I. I was. I was. I was pretty hurt by that, and I tried to brush that under the table, and I'm sure it was just a. Like, you know, I don't want to speak for you, but. Yeah, I'm sure it wasn't malicious from you. Well, at least I'd like to think it wasn't.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

Right.

[Spencer Matthews]

I Remember how I found out about that? I was flying back from somewhere and Virgil showed me a Daily Mail article that literally showed me your London wedding celebrations and loads of your friends there. And I think we had had some conversation and you were like, it's not really a friend's thing. It's like a family, small thing. And there were loads of friends there. And I can remember thinking, like, what have I. What have I done? Or, like, who? Like. Like, how. What have I done to annoy him?

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

And then.

[Spencer Matthews]

And, yeah, I don't mind saying Vogue was just a bit like, it's pretty. It's pretty weird that you wouldn't be invited to that, you know? And I just thought, it is a real shame that I wasn't advised that.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

At first.

[Spencer Matthews]

I just brushed it off as, oh, it's fine, it doesn't matter. But the more I thought about it, the more I probably felt that it did matter.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And I don't know, and you don't.

[Spencer Matthews]

You said it was a kind of genuine mistake and.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Yeah, and I was just a genuine, big mistake for me as well, by the way, because I think I was. I was stuck in it.

[Spencer Matthews]

There must be a reason for it. Like, it's obviously not just, like a mistake.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

The true reason for it was this. During the wedding, Soph was very anxious and having a really tough time with anxiety around, you know, getting married. And, like, I'd put her in, doing this podcast all about our wedding, and she had said to me before, she said, I just want to get my married with my feet in the sand. I don't want all of this. And you want this, Jamie, I don't want all this. So I was battling, trying to, like, handle all of this podcast we were doing about our wedding and everything like that. And that was quite a lot to handle. And I was just thinking about her and you. I had had my stag do and you didn't want to come to the stag do because, well, that's it. I remember now. You didn't want to come to the stag do, which was fine, which I get. But for me, that was like, well, why wouldn't you want to come to the stag do? And so when it came to the English wedding, I was like, this is all hectic. This is a lot. You're. I'm just like. I was just like, it's going to be complicated if I try and invite him because he probably. I don't know if he wants to come because it's going to be like a small thing. For lunch. And will he want to come do that? And to be honest, in my head, I just went, fine. It's not. It's one thing less to think about. I just won't ask him to come.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And I can now focus over here. And that's why it happened.

[Spencer Matthews]

For the record, I would have loved to have been there and I would have flown. I would have flown from anywhere to be there.

[Kat Burns]

Right.

[Spencer Matthews]

Like, you've always been a very important person to me.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

The reason why I wanted to do this and do yours is because, firstly, yeah, it is boring when there are articles coming out saying you're not mates and all these things. And every single time that one person. But I get it. It is boring. And it's. And it's suffocating. And actually you're caring about your family. I'm about to start my family and that's what we care about. And so. And so that. Which I get to hold on a second. But. And I. And I'm just. And I'm. And I'm looking. I'm happy. And I. And I missed our friendship. Genuinely missed it. I think you admit that you were. You're a tricky person to be friends with. But I think that I'm. I'm that constant friend.

[Spencer Matthews]

I'm not you've had for 20 years with.

[Jessie J]

I'm.

[Spencer Matthews]

I'm.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

I'm not.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

You're definitely.

[Spencer Matthews]

I'm not always there. Why am I tricky?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Because you're so involved in what you're doing and, and to be a good friend, you have to. You have to think about your friends quite a lot. And because you're so driven by your. Your own, which is not a bad thing, your. Your own success and your family that unless you're in your circle in your present, then you're blinded to anything else.

[Advertiser/Verizon Representative]

That's true.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Which makes you, as a friend, hard to be friends with. Because friends have to.

[Kat Burns]

You have to.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Friends are like. Friends are like a garden. You have to water them to keep them alive. That's what they are. That's how you keep a. That's how you keep a friendship. You have to keep watering them the whole time. And you forget to water your friends.

[Spencer Matthews]

What will happen if I forget to water you?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

But you do. You do. That's how you make it. That's how you build friendships. You have to keep doing that.

[Spencer Matthews]

I agree.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I agree. You've taught me a lot in my life and I've said this to you for you. The reason why I loved our friendship or do love our Friendship is because you're incredibly unique, but actually underneath it all, you're quite sensitive without people realizing in some ways. And I know that I can ask you about a lot of different things, whether it's family or relationships or weight training or anything, and you'll give me a pretty good answer and you'll want to help me with it. That's true.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

What is your.

[Spencer Matthews]

All of those things are true. Like, there's never been. There has never been a time where I have disliked you.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

What is the. If we go to the good times and let's talk about Mic, just quickly.

[Kat Burns]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

What are moments that really stand out for you? We're just like, oh God. What is like a pivotal moment on Made in Chelsea that really sticks out. That was me and you based. Where were we? What were we doing?

[Spencer Matthews]

New York was. I thought I was having a heart attack in a taxi once. Genuinely, I considered asking the taxi driver to take me to the nearest hospital because I was just on such a mad bender. Like, genuinely, I, like I was coming home. It was about 10am and literally I was sat in the back of the cab and I was like, how do I know if this feeling is a heart attack? And I was like, oh my God. I swear that like when your left arm goes numb, that means you're having a heart attack. And then I'm like opening the window going, I'm trying to get air in, not that that's going to prevent the heart attack. And then like, I'm kind of just like. And then you've got that weird thing. It's like, do I tell the taxi driver that I think I'm having a heart attack or do I just see if it actually is a heart attack? Or then will it be too late? So no, there was.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

There was a.

[Spencer Matthews]

New York was full on.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Full on. And we were living in a one bedroom apartment in Meatpacking District, just you and I.

[Spencer Matthews]

It was enormous. Like the trip, I mean, not the apartment. The apartment was pretty cool.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I slept on a camp bed the entire time and you had the bed.

[Spencer Matthews]

Hosted every single morning. For breakfast, we went to this Mexican restaurant called Dos Caminos, which we titled Tos Caminos because it was actually quite shit. That whole time was pretty fun as well, though, to be fair.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

It was great time, wasn't it?

[Spencer Matthews]

It was. I mean, why do you. That was a feeling where you felt like less of a loser. I mean, the behavior, my goodness. But like, but like, you felt like, okay, cool, we're on like a us based TV show.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Filming it felt big and exciting.

[Spencer Matthews]

Felt so exciting.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Felt big and exciting. It was fun. But I, but there's.

[Spencer Matthews]

I was big and not exciting.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Jesus.

[Spencer Matthews]

It was dreadful. I was just, you know, you think, you think that you'd take the opportunity to, like you're about to star in some massive TV show, look after yourself a little bit. No, just turn up pissed and sweaty to every scene. Do you know what I mean? Massive sweat patches and just like red face and just slurring like in every scene.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

What are you doing?

[Spencer Matthews]

I was just, I wasn't even. I don't think I was sober for a single minute. Like, genuinely. It's horrific.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

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[Jessie J]

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[Jessie J]

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[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

So if someone's listening now and they don't have any friends, they feel very lonely or they haven't been able to connect. How would that person best make friends?

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

Okay, first of all, take the problem seriously and not in any way a sign of anything bad about you. I think people are so embarrassed around their problems with friendship that it stops them from engaging with the Topic fruitfully. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you. It's a really difficult thing. You should be no more embarrassed your problems around friendship than you would be around your problems of, I don't know, climbing Mount Everest. I mean, no one should be expected to know how to do it. So that's first thing. And then take a few early steps at saying, okay, well, how do I feel more or less close to another human being? What do I need to do in order to get close? And once you start to study that question, you will almost always find that the moments in which you feel closer to somebody are those in which you've been able to share something fragile, potentially embarrassing, potentially dangerous, potentially outside of the so called normal rules of engagement. It could even be, it's a sunny day and you're able to say, I don't much like the sunshine. That's a contrary point of view and that's the beginning of something a little deeper. Or if somebody says, you know, you're doing okay, you know, even that question, are you doing okay? That's loaded. We shouldn't be asking ourselves, are you doing okay? How are you? Not are you doing okay? Because that makes it, it's a leading question. It's, you know, the right answer is, yes, I'm fine. We should be allowing space in our friendships for something a little bit more.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Complicated because a lot of our listeners will be who will be listening to this, right? These stages of the lies, perhaps they have just left university or their friends are getting married or their friends are having babies. And so let's flip it. Rather than being the person to break up, they could be the person sitting now being broken up with by their friends because they're not in the right stages of life as everyone else. What do they do?

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

It's survivable. It's fine to lose a friend. The challenge is to make one think of alcohol. Right? Alcohol is this great lubricant. I don't drink and I'm not sure the people listening who would, you know, depending on the wine industry. But let's imagine that all of us should ideally not drink as much as we do. Friendships should not depend on alcohol. But we should be learning what happens when we take an alcohol and do that when we're sober. What is it that people do when they're drunk? They lose fear and they lose fear around what vulnerability. So they're able to say, men are able to go, I love you, I love you, mate. They're able to say, right, because it's no longer so Scary. And that's what you need to do sober.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

That is brilliant.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

We should all be learning how to become drunk sober. And to be drunk sober means essentially remembering what it was like when we were drunk and just putting it into action when we're not drunk. And to say, okay, if I were drunk now, I probably would say, I love the way you do that thing. Or your eyes are nice. Or could I share the fact that I cried all day yesterday. Whatever. If you were drunk and would say that. Say it now. Say it now.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

That is so brilliant. Because I drank a lot of my twenties and then I sort of started to stop drinking just because it didn't do me well, didn't please me, right? In lots of different ways. But what I missed from it at the beginning was the connections I thought I got with friends. And, oh, when I got drunk, wasn't it fun? Because we had these deep conversations and we were silly with each other with this and with that.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

You're so.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

We should just be drunk without the alcohol with our friendships, totally drunk without.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

The alcohol in our friendships.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

But it's so scary sometimes to be that vulnerable.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

But you have to, because you have.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

The excuse, God, I was drunk last night.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

But think about, how do you do it? You can create an atmosphere. See, it's quite easy to change the dynamics of a group. Sometimes we're in a group and we think, right, I'm in a group of people, so I've got to go along with whatever people are talking about. So I've joined the group and they're talking about going skiing, and someone mentioned that they went to France, and somebody mentioned that they went to Austria. And then there was like, how skis way and blah, blah, blah. And you think, well, I've got to join this conversation. Conversation. Because I'm just in this conversation. Absolutely not. What about suggesting a new conversation or gently steering it towards something else? You can be an actor in your friendship group. You don't merely have to respond. You can be an agent. And part of that could mean to say, as you said, as you described, hey, guys, anyone been lonely recently? Or anyone think that they've really messed up their life? Because I think I've completely balls things up and, you know, and on you go. And that will change the dynamic. So, you know, don't be afraid to change the mood. Try and change the mood. And most of the time, people are hovering on the surface. Bear this in mind. Not because they want to, but because they don't know any different. Let's just rehearse that it's a really important point. Most people are having superficial conversations not because they want to, not because they're wedded to superficiality, but because they've never been shown that there is an alternative, that there are secure steps from the superficial to the deep that they can safely take. They just don't know it can be done.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Wow. Isn't it mad?

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

It's totally mad.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

It's totally mad.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

It's the difference between the most boring evening and the really exciting evening. You can shift your evening. We tend to think of interesting conversations, a bit like a magical square that you find in a foreign city. And the next day you think, I don't know where this square was. I just stumbled on it late at night. Well, we've got maps. We can actually, you know, this book I wrote was attempting to be a map. It is a map how you can more reliably find your way to the good moments. Because so often I think that friendships have magical moments that the people around them literally just don't know how it happened. They go, oh, it's really weird. We were in the garden and suddenly it was this magical moment and you want to go, no, it wasn't. It wasn't magic. There is no such thing as magic. It was just that you found a way. A door opened and you found a way to something good. And you know what? You can do it again. It's why we invented agriculture. In the early days. People found a wild strawberry. Oh, that's nice. That wild strawberry must pray a bit more so we get more wild strawberries. And then somebody thought, no, you don't have to pray. Just invent agriculture, lay some seeds out and then you'll grow and you'll have strawberries every day. So we can have conversational strawberries every day. We don't have to have wild strawberries. I don't know why I was in a friendship with Bill and Jane. We suddenly had a great conversation. You know, plan for it. We can plan for this every day.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

It's so true. Because you have those moments go, God, wasn't it the best night ever last night? We just. And it's typically, yeah, sure, it's around maybe moments of, like, cycling naked or whatever it is, but also it's typically around. But you know what I mean? It is. You have those moments where you go, like, that was wild. We swam naked in the sea and we did this. And that was so fun. But actually, it's normally around conversation.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

Somebody opened a door.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Correct.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

Somebody allowed. Somebody gave permission to do something that allowed for depth to occur.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

And it's not magic.

[Expert/Guest on Friendship]

It's not magic at all. Not magic at all. We could be having this every single time.

[Producer Jemima]

God, what a whirlwind. What an absolute whirlwind. But how incredible. So many takeaways, so many interesting. So many interesting conversations that make me want to go and have more conversations with people about what I've listened to. That's it. It really opens up your. I don't know, like, what you speak.

[Jessie J]

About with friends at the pub or wherever else you're going with them.

[Producer Jemima]

I can't. I'm really sorry to anyone I know, because every other sentence that comes out my mouth is. I was in an interview, one of the shows that we did the other day, some. One of our guests said this thing, but I was like, it's such an honor to get to, like, sit and listen to these. These amazing guests and hear all, like, all these takeaways. 100%. Yeah. I mean, it's unreal. It's so good. Well, we hope you enjoyed that. We've got such an amazing year coming up. Can't wait for it.

[Jessie J]

I know.

[Producer Jemima]

It's going to be absolutely incredible. And the last thing that we've really got to say is, this is actually going to be my last episode on Great Company. I know.

[Kat Burns]

Don't do it.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

I'm leaving.

[Producer Jemima]

I'm going to be joining you guys as owls now.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jamie Laing)]

Now.

[Producer Jemima]

And the thing with Great Company is I. This is such a subtle thing, and I don't know whether anyone ever notices it, but when we started the show, we'd get the guests to say, hi, I'm blah, blah, and I'm great company. And then we. We shifted it so they now say, I'm in great Company. And it's that one tiny word in. But for us, this show is all about connection. And the other person on this show is you guys. You're the great company. So when the guests say, I'm in great Company, I've always, always felt that that's you guys. And so I'm gonna be coming and joining you all as an owl now, because I'm going to be handing the baton on to our amazing producer, Helen, and our amazing, amazing Great Company team who have been working on this show for the last six months. So absolutely nothing will be changing as far as you're interested. Just their life will change a little bit. A little bit, yeah. We'll miss you a lot. Well, I'll miss you. It's been such a joy growing the show. Like I think, I think it's so special. And anyone who's ever listened, whether you've listened from the beginning or you've listened just one or two, you've listened to like just this one. Imagine we appreciate you so much and like, yeah, it's been such a joy. It's such a special show to make and the next year is going to be so exciting. So yeah, this is my goodbye for now. For now. You can always come back whenever we need an interview with Jamie. Oh yeah, come and be back for a pop on back. I'll pop on back, but we'll end the show how we end every show because we never miss a beat. So we'll see you all next week for another episode of Great Company.

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