← Great Company with Jamie Laing
Great Company with Jamie Laing
MARY PORTAS: My Mother Died, My Father Disappeared & I Was Left Homeless At 19
01:08:26
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- [00:00]
Mary Portas
Coming up in this episode of Great Company. My mother died when I was 16 and my father when I was 19. I went into this terrible grief space of loss, complete loss of who I was. I had no roots, I had no family. My father, when he remarried, didn't change his will and he died nine months after marrying this woman. She sold our family home and we were then out on our own.
- [00:22]
Jamie Laing
Have you forgiven your dad and his second wife?
- [00:26]
Mary Portas
I'm Mary Portis and I'm in Great Company. What I don't know about shops isn't worth knowing. She is the goddess of wheat out the fabulous Mary Porters. When I turned up at Harvey Nicholls, I was a 28 year old working class kid without any parents, without any money. And so I had to sort of navigate how do I fit into this.
- [00:45]
Jamie Laing
What do you think your superpower is in business. Oh, your brother Lawrence is the biological father to your son. How does it work?
- [00:54]
Mary Portas
Did he come around and check my ex wife? No. Lawrence turned up to the old donor place. Everybody done it sis. I was like, okay. The most beautiful time is when he came into the world. Lawrence turned up and picked him up. It was his gift to me. God, I get emotional. It was his gift, you know.
- [01:11]
It'S the greatest gift. I honestly look back and I think it just took me years to lose that grief. You don't just lose your parents, you lose the social infrastructure. You lose your roots, you lose your family. It took me a long while to just suddenly.
- [01:32]
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- [02:25]
Aramco Announcer
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- [02:55]
Verizon Announcer
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- [03:26]
American Red Cross Announcer
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- [04:01]
Jamie Laing
Hello everyone, My name is Jamie Laing and this is great company.
- [04:09]
Do you get people sliding into your DMs?
- [04:12]
Mary Portas
Yeah. Don't you?
- [04:13]
Jamie Laing
No, because I. And I've never had it. Anyway, I don't know what I think I give off. I think I've gave up quite gay energy. So I. So I. Sometimes people get confused. I don't really get men or women coming in. That's what happens.
- [04:26]
Mary Portas
Yeah.
- [04:26]
Jamie Laing
People keep saying the comments that I get on the Daily Mail, that I'm.
- [04:29]
Mary Portas
In a lavender relationship that said, lovely, the Daily Mail. God, we love you. How can we look? I got on a train the other day and someone had the Daily Mail. She started chatting to me and she was really lovely. So it was so nice to meet you. And all I could look at was that she had the Daily Mail and I would have said, you know what, Put that away and we can have a conversation. You cannot like me, you cannot have things in common with me and you're reading the Daily Mail.
- [04:54]
Do I want. Do I want. Do I want.
- [05:00]
Jamie Laing
What is the biggest risk you've taken. Life, personal, business. What is the biggest one?
- [05:06]
Truthfully.
- [05:09]
Mary Portas
I remember when I fell in love with my wife and I was, you know, seen as straight and the press were coming to interview me for my first big series. And I'd gone on to tell you I was only. I was in my mid-40s, so I'd only. I'd gone in and I remember.
- [05:31]
My. He said. He says he doesn't say this, but he did say it to me and I love him, but he was my business partner who's gay, saying, don't tell them you're a lesbian.
- [05:42]
Because there aren't glamorous lesbians on tv. Emin, you're glamorous and I don't want them shoving you into the same category as we won't say who. And I went, oh, okay, okay. And I did these interviews and they presumed that I was still, you know, totally heterosexual, as opposed to bisexual, whatever. Bloody. I don't have any title on this crap. But anyway, so they didn't ask me. But all the time I kept on thinking, I'm not telling you the truth here, and I don't like this. And it was really uncomfortable, really uncomfortable. And so I decided, you know, and then I remembered, I think, what's the worst shit paper that can, you know, write about me? Yes, The Daily Mail. Do come in. You've got an interview with me. Full on one. Here we go. Because I'll let you. Because I'm going to give this to you. And then you sound like you're being all supportive. Anyway, so I did that. But then I had this terrible risk of, like, my ex husband and how do I manage that? And my children. It just. That felt really shitty, you know? It doesn't sound shitty now, but I remember Verity coming home from school and she was crying and I said, what's the matter, darling? And she said. And someone had brought in the mail, you know, the mother had given it to a kid. My daughter's seven.
- [07:00]
You know, what? Giving it to them, she said. And I said, I'm. So she knew. I mean, we were, you know, I was with my partner. Then she said, actually, I've got to tell this story. I don't know. I've got this. But anyway, she said to me, tell.
- [07:11]
Jamie Laing
The story, tell the story.
- [07:12]
Mary Portas
I'll tell the other story of this because it's hilarious. But she said to me, I don't want them saying bad things about you, Mama, because I just love you, you know, And I remember being so. It Wasn't about. She was like, how could you come in and go look at your mother? You know? But this really funny story because my daughter's about to turn 30 and so we were going through old stories and she's got the most gorgeous boyfriend in the great space. We're working out her weekend, which is coming up. And.
- [07:40]
This is one of my favorite stories, right? So I'd fallen in love with my ex wife anyway, my wife, my girlfriend at the time. And I'm navigating. How do I navigate these children? You know, I divorce, I'm navigating. I'm now in the public eye, you know, I'm getting tv, there's press. And how do I navigate this? And it's really tricky because you're doing everything. I want to keep them safe and don't want to offend anybody. My ex and you know, and Verity comes home from school, she's 7, and her little friend is leaving her best friend. So she sits at the table with me.
- [08:21]
And I have this really serious, straight, Catholic, South African nanny for them, right? And she's really deeply Catholic, Sundays, church. And I was like, okay, fine. And she's dishing up supper and I'm sitting at the table and Verity's sitting next to me and Milo, my son's sitting there and the Catholic nanny's sitting there and Verity's right in the car. And I said, vertigo, put it away, we've got supper now. She went, how do you spell lesbian? I hadn't told you. I hadn't told at the time I was with a woman. I went, oh my God, am I giving off these pheromones? And I just went.
- [08:54]
L, E, S I thinking, what's she writing? What is she writing on this card? And then I get stressed because I knew the mother of the girl that she's writing the card chair. I'm thinking, oh my God, what if they think I've got this lesbian sort of hangout and I'm bringing my daughter into it? Anyway, I scoop this card up after supper and I read this and it says, dear Leah, I'm so sorry you're leaving. I love you. You are like a sunflower. Love, Verity. P.S. lesbian.
- [09:27]
That Verity darling is coming out on your 30th speech this weekend. But that is just the best. What she was actually saying was she saw lesbian and love. That's very beautiful, actually.
- [09:39]
Jamie Laing
That is beautiful.
- [09:40]
Mary Portas
That's what she was saying. That's what she was saying. You are like a songfight. I love you. P.S.
- [09:45]
Jamie Laing
Les, but can I ask, was that a. Was that. That is. I mean, that's so pure and just. Can I, can I ask, was it a confusing time for you because you were with your ex husband for how long?
- [09:58]
Mary Portas
I met him, I was with him for. Together. We were 20 years, so.
- [10:03]
Jamie Laing
20 years together. Right.
- [10:04]
Mary Portas
He took me out of just great pain and I fell in love. He was beautiful and he gave me such security, you know. He was very. A wonderful man. We're having Christmas together.
- [10:15]
Jamie Laing
That's what I think is amazing. Just quickly, just tangent. Why did he take you out of pain?
- [10:19]
Mary Portas
Well, because it was the first time. I mean, I'd had boyfriends, but it was the first time I'd really truly felt in love. And he made me feel safe. And he was, you know, 25 and he was. Finished university. He was a, you know, chemical engineer. He was a very bright guy. He was an academic and he was just strong and could do anything. And it, I was, you know, I'd been lonely all those years with that death. And it was great. And we, you know, we had, we built a lovely life and had two children together. It was beautiful.
- [10:46]
Jamie Laing
So was it confusing though, when that period where you then go, you start. You fall in love with another woman and was that confusing cause you've been in a relationship with a man for 20 years or.
- [10:57]
Mary Portas
No, no. I look back on this and you do try and analyze it and I used to have crushes on both, but I always found it so easy to go out with men. I just didn't even think I wanted to be with a woman. But looking back, I mean, you had crushes and you just thought you did and you know, that was fine. I never got hung up about it. But I loved, I think what I'm probably my sexuality, I don't know. I would think it's more gay now because I've been with women since, but. And I find women just so easier to be with. And I don't. I know this sounds. I don't have to change me at all to fit in. There's an absolutely. Most women, Most gay women love powerful women. So it's like game on, you know, Whereas men, I have to sometimes just go. And I don't want to do that. But I found relationships.
- [11:50]
Jamie Laing
That's really interesting.
- [11:51]
Mary Portas
I don't want to diminish myself.
- [11:53]
Jamie Laing
My wife is quite strong and dominant and sometimes when I go, I will. Sometimes he's almost a little too strong for me. And I'll. And I'll go. And she goes, no, you know what? I'm like, I'm strong, come on. And she doesn't want to retreat.
- [12:07]
Mary Portas
You are. And you like that in her.
- [12:10]
Jamie Laing
Yeah, I do really like that. I encourage that.
- [12:12]
Mary Portas
Yeah. The era of I. You know, even I write about it in the book. You know, in business, you knew you had to play men in a certain way. And I just. It was so freeing because women just don't expect that of you and your friends. They like strong, funny, clever women. They just do. And gay women like strong, clever women. You don't have to go, oh, there's no other role. You have to.
- [12:33]
Jamie Laing
There's nothing.
- [12:34]
Mary Portas
And it's really bloody freeing. But I really did enjoy the male relationship. I did. And there's parts of that that I still miss, if I'm honest. But it. I can't imagine being in a male relationship again. I just can't. I just don't know what sort of. There was one. There was one guy I quite fancied, but they're like this sort of artists and stonemasons who are just like Artie, and they'll be like, whatever, babe, whatever, darling. You can be what you like. You know those. They're rare, though. I'm not. Now I've said stonemason. They'll work out who it was. No, no, no. You were not the guy who was doing the stonemason.
- [13:08]
Jamie Laing
Do you believe you can have more than one love of your life's?
- [13:10]
Mary Portas
Of course, yeah. I'd like to think there's another one. I'd love to think that. I think, yeah, of course you can. Love's just so powerful, though, isn't it? The greatest thing. Oh, man. You know, even my. Whatever. Whether it's a relationship, like my young son, who's 13, he lost his grandmother, so my ex wife's mother died, and I saw him just sobbing at her funeral, and I just held him and said, this is love. This is what love is like, my darling. That is the most beautiful thing, to feel that so deeply, you know? So, yeah, I think you can. Of course you can have.
- [13:45]
Jamie Laing
That's a brilliant way to put it. Because life is about love. Life is about love. Yeah, 100%. That's really all it kind of is. It's not. You know, I was chatting to a guy the other day on the podcast and he was saying at the end of people's lives, they never talk about their achievements ever. Really? They don't say, oh, I did this, I did that. I created Harvey Nicholson. What it is, you talk about your relationships and you talk about Whether you were a good parent or a good friend or a good lover or whatever it was, that's what you go back to. Because that's really what we care about.
- [14:18]
Mary Portas
In the end, that's all it is, isn't it? And what's another Maya Angelou, isn't it? You might forget what people say. You might forget what people do. But you'll never forget how they made you feel. Whoa. God, did that woman. I hope someone maybe quotes me sometimes. It'll probably be p. S Lesbian.
- [14:38]
Jamie Laing
You've opened up about how your brother Lawrence is the biological father to your son.
- [14:44]
Mary Portas
Yes. That was headlines as well, baby. Let me tell you that one. That was the front cover. Oh, yeah, and lovely paps that turned up on all my brothers. Cause I got three brothers houses to find out which one it was. And my brothers are so funny, you know, they're so funny. My brother Joe Romey said, oh, pants being a door babe. And I said, okay. Have they. He says, yeah. I answered the door with the tenants, lager in me underpants, went, no, it weren't me.
- [15:12]
They made me laugh. No, it weren't me. I said, stop it. Yeah.
- [15:17]
Jamie Laing
Can we. Can we just talk about that a little bit? So my naivety. So was it your decision, obviously, and your ex wife's decision to. To. How does it work?
- [15:30]
Mary Portas
Did he come around and check my ex wife?
- [15:32]
American Red Cross Announcer
No.
- [15:36]
Jamie Laing
It'S the one that I don't.
- [15:37]
Mary Portas
Really know how to navigate. Let me tell you the story. Why would you be embarrassing me, Jamie? So Mel decided she wanted a child. I had two. And I was very clear that I wanted to have a bloodline. I wanted. If I was going to have another child, I wanted to make sure that it was related in some way and biologically related to my other kids. Wow.
- [15:58]
Jamie Laing
Okay.
- [15:58]
Mary Portas
And I had two brothers who weren't married. And then. And I knew my younger brother didn't want particularly to have children, but he and I had a particular bond. You know, he was the one who.
- [16:11]
Jamie Laing
Who you looked after well.
- [16:12]
Mary Portas
And he looked after me. It was a real symbiosis. And both of them said, yeah, of course, you know. And Lawrence, you know, turned up to the old donor place and said, done it, sis. I was like, okay. And it was really amazing.
- [16:27]
Jamie Laing
It was amazing.
- [16:28]
Mary Portas
And Horatio, my. So is the image of my side of the family. It's literally. And he's the performer and he's funny and he's. He's just divine. And. Yes. So.
- [16:38]
Jamie Laing
And Lawrence and Horatio's relationship must be great.
- [16:40]
Mary Portas
Lawrence lives abroad now but he rings as regular and they talk about football. God, it's so boring. I mean I looked, it's like non stop. But the most beautiful time is when, you know, he came into the world and I rang Lawrence and Lawrence turned up and picked him up and it was like it was his gift to me. God, I get emotional. It was his gift, you know.
- [17:01]
It is the greatest gift. A little tinker still pain school, please.
- [17:09]
Jamie Laing
Why the greatest gift?
- [17:10]
Mary Portas
Because, oh my God, he's, you know, like because of the years that we helped each other, he and I and you know, I was always his big sis, you know. And then he was able to give me this gift. I mean what a great gift.
- [17:20]
Jamie Laing
That's amazing.
- [17:21]
Mary Portas
Come, you know, and he looks like him and it's just great.
- [17:25]
Jamie Laing
I, I think it's also amazing that when it was made legal to, for gay marriages to, to happen in the UK, you did it on the, 14 December 2014, wasn't it? You and your ex wife Mal, you both went straight there and did it straight away. That is magical.
- [17:45]
Mary Portas
We're the first in there. And Horatio kept Horatio up. My daughter came keeping her air shop and he walked in, he was only two with a little bunch of flowers like midnight. We did it. I'm like, get him in there, get in. Really cute.
- [18:03]
Jamie Laing
What do you think your superpower is in business?
- [18:08]
Mary Portas
Oh, I think.
- [18:11]
It'S very difficult. But the first thing is I kind of culturally know what the next thing and what is right for people. So I know like when, even when you came out with your brand, I'm like, oh, that's clever what you're doing there. And I can get that. That's going to work. Why and reasons why. So have this. It's my, my friend always wrote about this once and she. I just, I can and I don't mean it to sound negative, I know culturally what the next thing is going to be.
- [18:34]
Jamie Laing
What have you called, what have you called in like your, your, your time? What have you seen? You're like, that's going to work. That's going to work before it works even my, my.
- [18:41]
Mary Portas
When I took the charity shops and said, right 15 years ago, recycling upcycling is going to be big. Stop behaving like a charity shop. Let's make this really cool. Look at all the charity shops now. Crisis. They're cool. Great. That was more than 15 years ago. Let's stop doing it this way. This is going to happen. People will want vintage, recycled, upcycled. It's going to Go before Vinted came on or whatever. And that's where 30 million came from through those doors. So, you know, stuff like that. Or you just know what the. You just culturally feel it, what it's going to be. Right. When I did my collection for women over 40, there was no models that we could find that were over 40. Now you'll see loads of older models being used and whatever it was, really. And actually that's when Twiggy wrote to me because she was doing something for Marks and Spencer. So it's just, you know, and I'm coming back to community is going to be the next thing. Believe me, that's my thing. That community and connection we are craving, particularly post Covid. We realized what we lost when we thought, oh, I can get everything online, I can go and shop at that great big place in the sky and get that delivered. And we realized that actually what we all wanted to do when Covid hit was just even stand out in those streets, whether it was freezing cold and a pub was opening and passing you a beer out the window and you spoke to someone. It is the most fundamental, fundamental part of humanity. Connection and community. I think we're gonna see small happening. I think we're gonna see collaboration happening. I think we're gonna see power coming back to communities because we've the global powers that be. There's angry powers that be that are all.
- [20:21]
Jamie Laing
I completely agree with you.
- [20:22]
Mary Portas
Yeah.
- [20:23]
Jamie Laing
I think we're going to do a role reversal. I really do think where we've gone through this stage of. In so many different ways, right? Which is we've gone through the age of like reality TV and Instagram and vlogging and putting our life out there. And let's see what we're all doing. I think we're going to retract from that and go. Actually, hang on a second. Why were we doing that? That's the first thing. The second is why are we not meeting up in person? You know, why are we not going to a bench and reading a book? Why are we not going on walks? Why are we ordering stuff off corporations when we can go to the local shop and go and get it? That's what people are going to want to do because we're going to almost go and get. It was kind of cool and exciting and new, right? And so when everything's cool and exciting and new, you go for it, you try and grab it. But as soon as then it becomes everyone's doing it, we all go, hang on a second. What the hell are we doing here and we want that in real life experience. And I think that's again, like you said, I think it's going to come back to high street where people come back and they want to go into shops, they want to experience, touch it, feel it, see it. That's what's going to happen.
- [21:17]
Mary Portas
Jane Jacobs wrote this incredible book when I did my High street report and I used to go into government and meet with them and they would ask me if I'd met the, you know, the captains of industry, like the head of Sainsbury's. And I'd go, yes. Have you done your due diligence? You know, and I've meeting with all those wonderful ministers and you know, have you met Sir Philip Green? Tragically, I have met Philip Green and what's he going to tell me about high streets and community? He might tell you how to make a lot of money, but. And this is what we're seeing playing out now. We're seeing the tech bros who can show us how to make a shitload of money. But are you caring about how people live? And Jane Jacobs, I found this book that she'd written in the 60s and it was called the Death of the American City. It's amazing if you get a chance, there's the death of Americans of the American City. And there's a picture book that was done that she did, which I read and I gave to my kids. She's much easier. It tells you all the same things. And effectively she talks about why high streets and community and local neighborhoods matter. And she gives these examples. And I started to write this in my High street report. So instead of listening to this is how much money a great big Sainsbury's can make, which incidentally moved out of the high street when they got cheaper planning laws. Not just Sainsbury's, all the supermarkets and built these huge big fuck off spaces.
- [22:37]
Jamie Laing
Yes.
- [22:38]
Mary Portas
Where everyone went, oh, this is great. I can load my car up. Doesn't matter if I've got a load of food at the end of it. I could chuck that out. We all did it. I was one. We all did it. We didn't know. Oh, that's value. Oh yeah, that's value. No value's in that at all. And we all went. And then the Internet came and that completely pulled away our histories and we lost what she talked about where you pop out for a loaf of bread. Has your baby been born yet?
- [23:03]
Jamie Laing
Not yet.
- [23:03]
Mary Portas
When's it coming?
- [23:04]
Jamie Laing
Very soon, Very soon. Very soon.
- [23:06]
Mary Portas
Right. You wait, you wait till that little thing comes, you will want to be out connecting with. And you are part of this. Oh, I am now part of this race that has children and connection and meeting in little parks and connecting and let's pop off and get a coffee. And she talks about popping out to the shops to get a loaf of bread and you bump into someone and say, gosh, can your daughter babysit on Thursday? Or something like that, you know, and then you run on and someone tells you that the old chap who you always used to see getting his newspapers, not being well. And someone, oh, do you mind popping in and she talks about these things and she says, they may sound trivial. You wouldn't put that into a business plan. No. You wouldn't put that into the. We're gonna lose this. But she said, some is not trivial at all. It's a social infrastructure, a network of how we as humans need and want to connect.
- [23:55]
Jamie Laing
I've never thought of it that way. Right. Which is so interesting because we've become obsessed with, like, run clubs and. Because we want to meet people and be around people.
- [24:03]
Sequoia Capital Announcer
Right?
- [24:03]
Mary Portas
Yes. And they're all doing it.
- [24:04]
Jamie Laing
And they're all doing it. But actually, what you're talking about, that is a club. That's a club. That's a free club.
- [24:09]
Mary Portas
That's the club.
- [24:10]
Jamie Laing
That's the club that you can just go to. Right.
- [24:12]
Mary Portas
Yeah.
- [24:12]
Jamie Laing
You're saying, oh, how was. You know, how. How's your mum? Yeah, she's great. That kind of.
- [24:17]
Mary Portas
Oh, and did you know this is going on? Did you know that, that. Oh, no, I didn't. I was even listening to it. But we've lost.
- [24:21]
Jamie Laing
We've lost that.
- [24:22]
Mary Portas
We lost it. And then we lost religion and a reason why. We will know on that. And we can go off whenever. We're not even gonna get onto my book. We've lost religion. And the reason why is because there's a patriarchy, alpha culture, building it. But actually, when you looked at what church did, it was community that most people missed. The rituals and community and connecting and having a time in the week that went. That's what you do as a family.
- [24:44]
Jamie Laing
We've lost the art of small talk as well, in a way, because we don't. We don't do it. So we try and avoid it. And what it used to be was small talk. You'd lean over your garden wall or go to the Waitrose Sainsbury's, whatever, and have small talk.
- [24:55]
Mary Portas
Yes.
- [24:55]
Jamie Laing
And people don't want to do that anymore because we're scared.
- [24:57]
Mary Portas
Well, they would just be doing this.
- [24:58]
Jamie Laing
We're looking down.
- [24:59]
Mary Portas
Yeah, but when I'm dead, you could.
- [25:01]
Jamie Laing
Go, yes, she was right. We'll keep replaying this.
- [25:07]
Mary Portas
And I think I. And which the producer who found me, she was amazing. Pat Llewellyn. It's that direct with the soul.
- [25:19]
Jamie Laing
So that's what I also think that is a much more beautiful way of putting it. Direct with the soul.
- [25:27]
You can say the hard things to people because you do it in a way where it.
- [25:35]
Doesn'T feel offensive. You make them like. You do it in such a way where you go, yeah, it's actually completely fair.
- [25:41]
Mary Portas
Yeah, you.
- [25:42]
Jamie Laing
You charm, make people laugh and are direct humans, like.
- [25:45]
Mary Portas
See, because you say, if you think that collection. Yeah, you do. And they're picking it up. There's one where she has to dress and she goes, but I've got these. Why have you got dressing gowns in this beautiful fashion shop? Because the hospital's across the road. That's so. Oh, there's a hospital crossroads right back, get some dressy gowns for people. Last minute. Could you imagine Gucci opening its doors and going, oh, God, we're up the road from Uch. Oh, I better get some hospital gowns in. What planet are you on? And you say it to them like that and then they start laughing. You've got the point, you get it, right.
- [26:22]
Jamie Laing
How business has sort of changed now, right, Your view in business in recent years. Because I have a big belief that we are relying on government to make decisions and leave the world in a better place. And actually it's the business's responsibility to do it. But in the 90s, that wasn't happening, was it?
- [26:42]
Mary Portas
Well, you say that, you see, I think that business, and that's what I talk about, that I think business has a great responsibility. I mean, if you go back in time to great businesses that looked after communities, Clark Shoes, Fry's Chocolate, they built villages where these, though, they looked after them and really looked after. Do you know, I remember meeting the MD of Clark Shoes and they told me years ago that when the wages came out for the men, they didn't give it to the men. The women came in, collect the wages because the men would go down the pub with it. And they clicked that and they knew that these women were running the households. I thought that was just such a fabulous little tape. And then you look at people like Anita Roddick, who I talk about, she was the greatest. She was a goddess. She was an. I mean, look, you know, if anyone was to start a Business Today that said I do no harm. And it created community and looked after small businesses globally who produced the face oils and the body. It would be an ethrotics body shop. I think the years where we lost it and we lost our sense of purpose as businesses were the years when the digital world and we became so obsessed with operationally, how quick, how fast, how cheap can I get stuff to people? We let people like Sheen, you know, someone came to my book talk the other day and I was signing my books and. And I said, oh, you look lovely. She went, yeah, it's Sheen. And I went, how could you actually say that to me? And I said, I'm not signing your book.
- [28:09]
Jamie Laing
No, Mary, no.
- [28:10]
Mary Portas
I did. So go to your room, you naughty girl. That is just not. Have you not listened to what I'm talking about?
- [28:18]
Jamie Laing
It's so good.
- [28:20]
Mary Portas
What? Sorry, It's Sheen. And you think, oh, yeah, that's great. Those people who are just abused in factories and we're pumping more shit into. And you are thinking, that's okay. And it's funny. It's not. It's not funny. It's not funny. And I didn't even do that with humour.
- [28:37]
Jamie Laing
No, no, you went straight in there.
- [28:39]
Mary Portas
I went straight in. And her friend was like, click the picture. What part of this are we not getting, do you think?
- [28:46]
Jamie Laing
Do you think? Do you believe we can change the role of retail?
- [28:50]
Mary Portas
Oh, I think everything can change. Look, we have to just keep on with this. Will it be as fast as we think? I don't know. I don't know. I tell you what, I do believe there's a couple of things. One, so, for example, fast fashion, when that happened and got faster and faster and you looked at the high street and people go, you know, isn't it a shame we don't have those cheap, cheap shops? That was just more stuff. I don't miss that. And I do truly believe that we can make change happen. Look at the secondhand market. It's growing faster than fast fashion. We need to educate that. Saying, this is secondhand or I haven't bought new is a sexy, modern, progressive thing to do. And when you stand in front of me and say, this is Sheen, you are deeply unprogressive. And that's the new thing we've taught. That's why that I shop, therefore I am. That is what Kruger was saying is this is an indictment on the fact that you lot think that what you have is cool and says that you're progressive. You're not. You're naff. And we need to make that sexy. To buying secondhand thinking, being absolutely conscious is a sexy choice. It's a sexy choice to talk about love, it's a sexy choice to talk about spiritualism, vulnerability. The other bit's not. And that's what we have to build. And I'm a marketeer and that's what I love doing is how do you get those new messages out there? And you can do it. You can do it. Look at what he's been doing with, you know, Yvonne Chouinard at Patagonia. You know, we had Sir Philip Green this side of the ocean with his chain of shops. I mean, it's tragedy that top job's gone, you know, taking what was it, 2.2 billion out as a dividend, crashing the business, people losing job across the ocean. He's got one shareholder, Mother Earth, he's saying, and he's opened up to his being absolutely transparent on how his sustainability report, which is not as great as he wants it to be, and he's going, we are not getting anywhere near as fast as we need to. But my one shareholder is Mother Earth and I regenerate by putting back it.
- [30:58]
Jamie Laing
Have you read the book Let My People Go Surfing?
- [31:00]
Mary Portas
Yes. It's just great, isn't it? Isn't it just wonderful?
- [31:02]
Jamie Laing
It's amazing.
- [31:03]
Mary Portas
So we need more of those voices to counteract the Elon Musks of the world and the Tech Bros and all that. We just need more and we need to educate that that sort of huge wealth is not what's going to be generative for us as communities, as life, as humans.
- [31:25]
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- [31:56]
Mary Portas
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- [32:01]
Jamie Laing
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- [32:05]
Mary Portas
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- [32:43]
Mary Portas
Do I am.
- [32:46]
Jamie Laing
You have written this book, Mary Portis. I shop, therefore I am.
- [32:52]
Why did you want to write the book now?
- [32:55]
Mary Portas
Well, I went to. There was this great exhibition called Rebel on at the Design museum. It was 30 years of new generation catwalk shows. And it was about the history of 30 years ago, how they started getting behind young designers. And I launched that. I started it at Harvey Nicholls. And my team, my old team, who I hadn't seen in years, got in touch and said, should we go down and look at this exhibition because that will take us back and let's have supper afterwards. And we went down and I suddenly was like, looking at this, going, wow, did I do that? You know, I was.
- [33:32]
And it was just powerful. And we all went out for supper and just laughed so much. Jamie like the memories of behind the Scenes, you know, of wow. And I suddenly was like, this sounds like Mr. Selfridge on acid. It's a TV series. I kept saying, this is a TV series. And I rang my agent the next day and said, listen, I've got this book. And she went, we're gonna do this. And it's just rolled. It's just rolled. It was as if, because it was such a vital part, my career and my growing and my finding myself, Those years from 28 to 38, they were just so magnificent and powerful and generative for me. And I thought, wow, why have I not done this before?
- [34:17]
Jamie Laing
In what ways?
- [34:19]
Mary Portas
Well.
- [34:21]
My early years, when my mother died when I was 16 and my father when I was 19, I think I went into this terrible grief space of loss, a complete loss of who I was. I had no roots, I had no family.
- [34:37]
My father, when he remarried.
- [34:41]
Didn'T change his will and he died nine months after marrying this woman. And so she took our family home and so we were sort of homeless. And I honestly look back and I think it just took me.
- [34:56]
Years to lose that grief that, I mean, I write about it in the book and I say that there was a wonderful line that I found that C.S. lewis wrote that I sat with my anger long enough and realized it was grief that's amazing. And I was so angry, but just angry with the world. I had no one. And so I think it took me a long while to just suddenly find that I had a place. Because you don't have a place when you lose your home. You don't have anywhere to go on a Sunday for lunch, or you don't have. You know, I'm just gonna go back and see Mum, or I'm upset about this, or I can't. There's nothing. So you don't just lose your parents, you lose the social infrastructure, you lose your roots, you lose your family. And I wasn't quite cooked enough, as it were. Do you know I'm 16 when mum died? So you're not quite.
- [35:49]
Jamie Laing
You're so young.
- [35:49]
Mary Portas
Yeah.
- [35:51]
Jamie Laing
You know, and you talk about how.
- [35:55]
Irish Catholic. There was noise, there was cooking. It was just life. And how you describe it, it sort of really hits my heart because you went from this sort of life in home to nothing. It just. There wasn't life anymore. And you had to learn to cook, you had to do all the things. It was just. It went from everything to just suddenly nothing, which must be at 16 years old, is just insanely hard.
- [36:22]
Mary Portas
It was that summer as well, when my siblings were going off to university. So I was one of five and I was the fourth out of five. And so they were leaving. My eldest brother had already gone. He was in Scotland. And then my sister, we're very close, who was three years older than me, she left that year, so she was 80, just finished her A levels in 18. So she went off. And then. So it was just my younger brother Lawrence, and I left at home with my father who worked. And so where I used to come home from school to a house with my mother cooking and the dog barking and some neighbors in or, you know, and it being like Paddy's Market, as my mother used to say, you came into dark. You know, you just came home to this place and you had to be the person who I put on everything.
- [37:08]
Jamie Laing
The radio, tv, everything, everything.
- [37:11]
Mary Portas
Just to make noise.
- [37:12]
Jamie Laing
Going back to when you were 16 years old. Right. And your mother passes away.
- [37:20]
It's interesting how you. That quote, you said about grief and anger, you were angry and then you suddenly. You were just angry after that. Or was that after your father died?
- [37:31]
Mary Portas
After my father died? Well, both, really. I just. Well, because I got into RADA and I wanted to act. I was actually, when I was on the way here, I was listening to Saskari's being interviewed on radio and she said, oh, you know, she fell into acting and I just thought oh my gosh, I so love that. I wish I had but. And I got into Radha but I couldn't go.
- [37:53]
Because of me being at home and looking after my brother and actually didn't want to. I just wasn't even feeling was even less the financial part of it. But I thought if I leave and go and live in, you know, some little place in London, what's going to happen with him, you know. Cause my father had sort of disappeared and married and left us in the family home. So it was just us two and then my siblings coming back.
- [38:17]
Jamie Laing
And where did your father go when.
- [38:19]
Mary Portas
He married this woman? He went and moved in with her but kept our family home. And so because he would say, well you're old enough, you can run it. And so he would leave money for us to get the food shopping. And then my elder siblings, thank God used to come home at weekends and it was heaven, you know, they'd come back and then we all go out to nightclubs and all friends would come back and stay but there was no parents.
- [38:39]
Jamie Laing
You were left alone. What is that?
- [38:43]
Mary Portas
We were okay because we were old enough. See this was, you know. Yeah, but the late 70s. No, no therapy. No, no, I'm going. No, you were just. No one asked any questions or what's happening.
- [38:56]
Jamie Laing
I remember when I lived in London with my mum. Parents divorced at eight, moved to London with my mum and my three siblings or two siblings. And at around 16 years old my mum had this sweet three bedroom house and across the road there was a garage and above it was a flat, I mean nothing, a bedroom, bathroom, flat, that was it. But she wanted the garage because she couldn't get any parking. So she rented it and I broke at her a deal saying can I live in the flats? And she said yeah, okay. And so at 16 years old I got this free flat. It was the biggest disaster ever because I could then do anything I wanted. There was no boundaries, no rules. So when I came home from school I just invited everyone back I didn't see. And it was kind of, I think a downfall of my teens and twenties because I got introduced to alcohol, I got introduced to things and when the. And I think there is something about having that sort of parental guidance there which I sort of didn't really have and my teens, so I didn't really have direction in a way I was making it up myself which was good and bad.
- [39:55]
Mary Portas
Yes. And it was too early because you weren't ready and you know, I Say that to my kids, you know, when they stepped out of place. I'm pulling you back in because you are not old enough to be making those decisions. And while you're under my roof, I'm making those for you. And to this day, the elder ones thank me. But what happened to me was I went the opposite way. I didn't rebel. And I became. I was very naughty as a kid. I was out there. I was performative. And then I didn't. And I went into this kind of sunken place of responsibility. And so I didn't rebel. I didn't ever do drugs. I didn't get into the big alcohol. Cause I didn't feel free enough. I didn't feel there was any safety net. I was scared. And so then when my father died, she sold our family home, even though they had a home. And we were then out on our own. So I think I just felt angry inside but didn't know it. And I used to just not want to be around. Really just think, what am I doing? It was just nothing. No social.
- [40:58]
Jamie Laing
How did your dad die?
- [40:59]
Mary Portas
Heart attack. Just a massive heart attack in his office.
- [41:06]
Jamie Laing
That's hard when you're that young and it's back to back.
- [41:09]
Mary Portas
Yeah. But in a weird way, you know, And I look back and I just love to have time to talk with him. But I was like, well, okay, dad, but you weren't there, you know, so it was like he'd gone, you know? Anyway, it was just a really difficult time. You still keep sort of. And I look back at his childhood, only just discovering it and thinking, well, no wonder, you know.
- [41:27]
Jamie Laing
You know, it's hard that. And I mean, looking back now, I had this. I'm sort of really conscious, and I speak about this. I'm really conscious of that. Life is like, limited, right. It's not forever. And for some reason, you suddenly get to an age and you suddenly go, oh, my God, it's not forever. And I. Luckily both my parents are still here. And unless you really experience grief at that age, you don't really. You sort of don't realize. You think your parents are superheroes. Right. And so now I constantly try and have those conversations with my parents that I wouldn't normally have. I ask the questions about their life and ask the questions about.
- [42:01]
Mary Portas
How old do you know?
- [42:02]
Jamie Laing
37.
- [42:03]
Mary Portas
Yeah, that's when it starts happening. It doesn't happen before or when you've got a baby coming.
- [42:06]
Jamie Laing
Yeah, that's interesting.
- [42:07]
Mary Portas
It's like my kids. Like my daughter came to one of my Book tours. And she went, mama, that was amazing afterwards. And she was like really emotional. And I thought, well, she's going to be 30 this weekend. But half of the. I didn't know you did that. I said, well, I've written about it, Veroni, and I've done a few interviews and I'm with you 24, seven, growing up, they don't want to know. Then you don't. And it's natural and I kind of like that. But it's when you suddenly are getting your family. And I write about it when I have Milo and I'm just holding this baby, you'll have it. And I'm just holding his little neck up while I'm washing him. I could cry now. And I just. All that love, you know, all of it. All of you know, Maya Angelou talks about this so beautifully. She said when she goes on stage, she brings them all, you know, her parents, her grandparents. All that love comes with her, you know, and there are times you'll feel it when that baby comes in the world. You go, there you are, Mum, you know, there you are, dad, there you are. My grandparents, they're all there. That is. It's just the most magnificent thing. And that's when you go, mom, tell me about. But then you don't have her there. And I found that the most grieving. That's when I grieved. That's when I grieved. When my son was born. I just like, I remember not even being able to get up off the bathroom floor holding him because she wasn't there. And I brought in. And the weird thing, my mother was this fiery redhead and she had all these. All of us, none of us had the red hair. Yes, my hair was dyed when I did the shows and my pop out, these little redheads. And Milo comes up, boing. And my husband was very, very dark, so I thought I'd have these swarthy dark, no Boing. There she is. Bright orange little head. So orange that my daughter, when I used to put her in a little buggy, all the little green fly landed on her hair. Thinking she was a marigold. She was like, Verity, come on, I've got to pick those little green fly out of your hair.
- [44:03]
Yeah, it's all comes. That's where it comes. That's the circle of life, man. It's just like powerful. That's love.
- [44:11]
Jamie Laing
What was the best thing about your mother?
- [44:13]
Mary Portas
Oh, she was hilarious. They were very witty in my family if you weren't funny, you know, the one liners that was it, you know, it was five of us. So she was very, very funny, very witty, and had nicknames for everyone. But she was very capable. She played the violin, you know, she read. She read poetry at night when we'd all go to bed, there's five of us, and she didn't have time to go around and read in every room. She would sit on the landing with the book and leave the door opens of our bedroom. Isn't that lovely? And read. And I just remember hearing those lovely Irish tones. My mother was from the north of Ireland, and she'd be just talking like that and I'd be like, oh, my God, this is heaven.
- [44:48]
Jamie Laing
That is unbelievable.
- [44:49]
Mary Portas
It's cute, isn't it?
- [44:50]
Jamie Laing
That is more than cute. That image of just her sitting on the line just talking to her kids.
- [44:55]
Mary Portas
I'm probably exhausted. Yeah, fine.
- [44:57]
Jamie Laing
I just didn't care. I went for it.
- [44:58]
Mary Portas
Yeah, just went for it. Read the stories, you know, and always tuck you in.
- [45:02]
Jamie Laing
What does it make you realize about parenting? Because I'm stepping into that realm now, right, of becoming a parent. And I'm trying to take little bits from you, from everyone, going like, okay, that's good. That's good. I love that idea. Okay, maybe I'll try and do that. What did your mother teach you about being a parent?
- [45:18]
Mary Portas
Well, you know, I think my, my. I think the most important thing is boundaries and loving within those boundaries. It's so easy to let children get away, and my mother didn't let us get away with anything. But I knew it was done with a real clear love and boundaries. I just knew that and I respected that. And interestingly, one of my really good friends who's very different from me, you know, she's a historical novelist. She's, you know, very. I always go very straight. And when I was having my children, I just followed her. I loved the way she parented like my mother did, you know, there was just those boundaries. The finger would go up and you'd go, here. Okay, that.
- [45:58]
The finger's up. But I knew it was done with love and really an important moral compass that she would just bring into me what was fair, what was right, what was fair, what was right. And I know that I've always sort of followed that. I mean, I've been pushing outside. It's so. I think that was really important. I think the other thing is structure around mealtimes. I think they're really important.
- [46:18]
Jamie Laing
My mum says this as well.
- [46:20]
Mary Portas
I really do. You know, this is your tea time. So she didn't wait until my father got in or you were here separately from us late. That was the time you had tea. Be in, you know, respect. I'm cooking. Be in at this time. And so, you know, this is before mobile phones, you'd go out to play, but you knew mum would have the meal on the table at that time, come back for it. So I think there was a real structure. Structure. And then I think when you give structure, it's like, you know, there's. I always think of it as how I am in my life. What is that? There's that ball that used to be on the end of a string you played for in the garden. You know, you could hit the hell out of it because you knew at the middle of it it was really strong, you know. And I always saw my mother like that. You know, we were all like, whoa, around. But there's this rooted, strong woman at the heart of it.
- [47:03]
Jamie Laing
What is it like being a new parent later in life? Is it different?
- [47:07]
Mary Portas
Yes. Yes. And Milo and Verity said to me, oh, you're so much softer on Horatia. I go, no, I'm not. No, I'm not. You know, but it's really. Yeah, of course it's different, but it's great. And he and I, you know, it's just. I always think, God, what would I do? Because all my older kids have left home and what would I do if I didn't have that little Herbert turning up, you know, after school, sweaty rugby boots on and whatever. It's beautiful. I think I'll just transition all the way through and then there'll be grandkids and I'll never stop being like, oh, my God.
- [47:40]
Jamie Laing
The amazing thing which I can feel on you, right, is that you just have so much love to give. That's. That's kind of amazing because normally, I think when you know, you. When you come from sort of grief and. And pain and lots of different things, typically people can close up and they then cold because they don't want to. They don't want to feel anything again because I don't want to. That was too painful. So I don't want to go there. But you kind of. You can feel it on you about your kids and your friends and your family and why do people and your ex colleagues, you can kind of feel and you. This. This real optimistic lover of life, which is so great to see because I think especially being a Brit, we're quite used to going, oh, shit, no. And ah, that you kind of do it in a brilliant way you just open and love it, which is quite exciting.
- [48:30]
Mary Portas
Yeah, it's just. I think I've had to learn a lot of that, though, you know, because you do live in fear for a long while when you've where you think, I'm not gonna have enough to get by or I'm not going to. And then the universe has an incredible way of holding you, you know, and once you learn that and you can fall back into it, it's just so beautiful, you know, I wish I'd learned it earlier instead of listening to those Catholic priests on about shit up there on the altar, you know, Please give me a break. We could have just been so enlightening, couldn't it? You know, going to church on Sunday and just saying life lessons like this, going, actually, here's some really beautiful life lessons. Instead of bless me, Father, for I have sinned, I'm in the Catholic Church. What did you do? I didn't help Mum with the washing up. Go into a wooden cupboard and beat your chest and say 10 Hail Marys. Give me a break.
- [49:27]
Jamie Laing
You know, I have a very strong mother, and I just thought that was the norm. I just thought, well, everyone has that. And then as you get older, you realize they probably don't. And I was quite lucky with that reliability. And then with Sophie, my wife, the strength of her.
- [49:41]
Mary Portas
Do you know what? And I didn't think we'd talk about this, but you know what? We lost. And we can go back the millennia, and it was the power of the divine feminine. So many women got killed in male power, alpha power, patriarchal power. So you look at the top of any, you know, whether it's church, whether it's kings, it's male power, right? Institutions, politics, education, what the actual fuck? Now, why would you stop a whole percentage, 50% of society, why would you suppress that alpha male power? And there's a beautiful. I think it's an ancient American tribe that talk about the bird of humanity. And the bird of humanity's been flying for a long, long time with one wing, a male wing. And it's just going around in circles, doing the same shit time and time again. And this gets harder. And this is the wing that needs to come up, which is the divine feminine. We don't talk about this. I talk about it in business now, because I don't give a shit that anyone will think it's weird. It ain't to. It ain't. And until that comes up and we don't suppress this one, we love the male energy, but if it doesn't have the female energy with it. The bird of humanity won't soar. And that's what we have to talk about. That's why we have to talk about love. That's why we have to talk about kindness. That's why we have to talk about vulnerability.
- [51:12]
Jamie Laing
And you think other people aren't like that?
- [51:14]
Mary Portas
Of course. Look. Look at the shows that we would ramm down our throat in business. You know, the Apprentice Trump.
- [51:23]
Jamie Laing
You know what you're saying you don't like Alan Sugar?
- [51:27]
Mary Portas
I don't know Alan well enough, but I actually probably think there's probably a quite sweet, gentle guy under there. I think I don't know him well enough. I did have to go and do a talk, and we were both on stage and I was on after him. And it was to all these thousands of entrepreneurs, we were giving a talk and I'd written a book called Work Like a Woman, and which, you know, was quite out there at the time, because I was saying, let's reclaim this feminine energy in the workplace. Let's do it this way. Who says, we gotta go, you're fired.
- [51:59]
Jamie Laing
You know, it's aggressive, right? And unneeded.
- [52:01]
Mary Portas
And all the way they behave like just complete idiots. And you're like, it's all to belittle other people and make yourself look better. So that whole way that. That's been set up, but that's the way that business has been for years. You know, I. I talk about it even in my book, in the fashion industry, you know, and we have come a long way, by the way. I don't want to sit here as some cynical. I'm never cynical at all. And I believe that we can make change happen. I absolutely believe in generative hope. And that change comes from even sitting, doing this. Or someone might pick this up and go, oh, actually, that makes sense to me. Why don't I do that at work? Or, wow. Yeah, I am going to talk about spirituality. Yeah, I am going to talk about love or. That doesn't feel fair, you know, if that's what this does, you know, and we think we're not making change, but this is where it does start to happen. And I think we're shifting into this new space of transient space that we've been in quicker than we believe. And I think that's where the hope is.
- [53:00]
Jamie Laing
Do you know, it's interesting that you say that you can sort of now talk about this now, but for me, and knowing your personality and having met you now a couple times, I wouldn't say you ever would have held back from saying things. Or did you?
- [53:16]
Mary Portas
Of course. Of course I did.
- [53:18]
Jamie Laing
Really?
- [53:19]
Mary Portas
I'm sitting. Yes, but you held back. Yes, of course I did. I talk about that in the book. When I turned up at Harvey Nicholls, I was a 28 year old working class kid without any parents, without any money, living in a bedsit in manor house with lino on the floor.
- [53:36]
And I went into a world of luxury. Well, they spoke like that, I kid you not. Where they drove Range Rovers. It was the Sloane's, Sloan Rangers, Sloane Rangers and money that I had never seen. Jamie, I just didn't believe that you could. I came from Topshop looking like Cyndi Lauper, hair all dyed in my fluorescent gear and they had sort of silk scarves around the walls. Huge wealth, huge wealth. Cars, drivers drove them in and parked outside and so I had to sort of navigate how do I fit into this, how do I feel, how do I.
- [54:15]
Connect with these people? As I was head of Visual Merchandising stored, how do I create these windows and this ambiance and this atmosphere to a whole class system I've never ever had anything to do with.
- [54:28]
Jamie Laing
So how did you do it?
- [54:30]
Mary Portas
Well, at first I fell and I don't think I did it very well. I tried to copy, so I tried to fit in, I tried to fit in. So the guy who had the job before me had gone as head of installations at the V and A and he's terribly lovely, you know, and I tried to fit in. I remember the first Christmas window I did, I thought. And I got very inspired by Peter Greenaway's film the Cook, the Thief and His Loved one. I thought, wow, this, they'll get this. This is baroque and beautiful and I remember presenting it to the buying director and sort of thing, you know, baroque. I'd never studied history of art, you know, but I, I read enough on this and I. And she went, that's Ricoco.
- [55:13]
And I just remember feeling a total.
- [55:17]
Twit. It wasn't rococo, she was wrong. But what she was doing to me then was saying, I know you don't know and I've studied at the lyce and that's where I went to school and you went to, you know, on a bus from Watford to Rickmansworth, you know, it comes back to you and you feel that embarrassment. You don't know it.
- [55:34]
Jamie Laing
You felt embarrassed.
- [55:35]
Mary Portas
Yeah, of course you do. Come on, you do. I did. And you just think, oh, how do I do this? And so I started the way I spoke, and I remember my brother going, why are you speaking like that? Like, what are you talking like that for, sis? And you do, because you wanted to fit in. And then you find your space, then you focus.
- [55:52]
Jamie Laing
I love that honesty, right? Because I think, you know, if we bring this to a current. And this is why people need to read your book, right? Because you can relate it to our current climate right now, right? Which is where, okay, you have shot windows, we have social media, right? It's like a shot window into someone's life, right? And what we're doing is we're trying to copy each other the whole time because we think, oh, they're successful, let's do what they're doing. And actually they look like that, and.
- [56:17]
Mary Portas
That'S how they do their hair, and that's how they show fashion, and that's what they do.
- [56:21]
Jamie Laing
And it's the wrong thing to do because as soon as we start copying someone, we're gonna run out of ideas because that other person has. Has to keep. It's like following. It's like copying a chess move. You're going to checkmate yourself at some point. You have to be individual. Rory Sutherland, one of the greatest marketers I know.
- [56:37]
Mary Portas
Rory. I got very drunk with Rory one night. We were both talking. Oh, my God. Go on, give me his quote. I love him. And you know, the other thing is.
- [56:44]
Jamie Laing
Jamie smoking on his vape, right?
- [56:48]
He, He. He said to me, you never follow logic. Don't follow logic because you get back in the same place as everybody else, go against the grain, do something different, never copy people, because otherwise you're just where everyone else is.
- [56:59]
Mary Portas
Yeah. And the difficulty that.
- [57:01]
Jamie Laing
It's hard to admit that.
- [57:02]
Mary Portas
Well, no, it's difficult if you work for yourself and you do your own thing. But when you've got to speak with people who are trained to follow logic and are frightened themselves. So if you go into a business, I'm often called in my consultancy to a business, and we want to do this, and you go, right, okay, this is what I do. And you throw them a wonderful big left ball idea. They're unable to catch it because they are following that logic and their fear's there. It's a very difficult thing. You're okay, you're working for yourself. You've set up your own thing. And, you know, I did that. Took me a long while to get to that there. And when I started to do my windows, where I went outside, what I thought I was meant to do, and followed my instinct and just put these Crazy loony artists into the windows. And, you know, it was then.
- [57:48]
Jamie Laing
Was that scary for you?
- [57:50]
Mary Portas
No, because I was knowing I wasn't working it the other way and I knew I was losing and I just took a risk. I thought, this is not right. I'm trying to play their game and I'm not able to do that. I am not able. And so once I stepped outside it and started to do what I thought, and I instinctively didn't follow the logic, I didn't. I put in. The first one that got talked about was when I saw these crazy dudes in the Nevada desert who had stacked up cars where everybody dumped all their old disused cars and rusting and these loonies stacked them up and created what they called car henge. And they were like, wee ha woo. Out in this desert. And I thought, oh, my God, I'm gonna do that in the windows. And creative review, the magazine just saw them and went, wow, what's this? And that's how it started. And once I knew I was playing over in my field, I followed it.
- [58:43]
Jamie Laing
There's a great, you know, one Christmas to Harvey Nicholls, you stripped out the window display and instead gave the money to charity.
- [58:48]
Mary Portas
I didn't even put the windows plane. I took the money. I came back. I think everyone thought I was a bit kind of crazy after having my child, which I thought it probably was. And I came back after maternity leave and I looked at this budget, okay. And I was. I had to get my head round. So how much was the budget?
- [59:05]
Jamie Laing
Can I ask?
- [59:06]
Mary Portas
I can't remember. Thousands and Thousands, you know, 10,000. It doesn't sound a lot now, because today.
- [59:10]
Jamie Laing
Yeah, but this is.
- [59:11]
Mary Portas
No, no, but I think about 25 grand or something.
- [59:13]
Jamie Laing
That's a lot.
- [59:13]
Mary Portas
Yeah, a lot.
- [59:14]
Jamie Laing
Huge amount of money.
- [59:15]
Mary Portas
And it was all the windows you have to be store. And Christmas is really competitive. So you're trying to find out what Harrod's doing, what's Liberty's doing, you know, what Selfridges doing. And all you little insiders can, I think because they'd have friends that were on their display team. And I just remember thinking, there's two things that came into my head. A, that amount of money and then B, what if I did nothing? What would.
- [59:36]
Sequoia Capital Announcer
What?
- [59:37]
Mary Portas
That would just. We'd make headlines. And then I just thought if I strip, don't put anything in. And instead of just doing nothing and just. I was gonna put. First of all, I was just gonna put a statement in each window, you know, and statements that sum that year Up. And the reason. And I'll tell you one of them was the reason why I loved this book and I called it I Shop, Therefore I Am, is that Barbara Kruger had done this real statement art she'd done at the Serpentine, a big exhibition. And she'd put out the statements, which were real indictments of how we were living. And I Shop, Therefore I Am was saying what a bunch of idiots we are. We think that what we have defines who we are and how shit is that. We're not far off that today still, but nevertheless. And I called my book that. That's why I called. So I thought, oh, I'm gonna do these statements. And then I went, oh, my God, what if I don't do statements? What if I give that money to different charities? Each window would have at least, you know, five grand, three grand. And so I went to the board with it. I said, look, I wanna do this. And I was.
- [60:41]
You lost your marbles. And I said. And they said, this is Christmas. Everybody wants to celebrate, feel joy. You want to feel abundance. Not someone ramming down your throat that you are spending a huge amount. And look at these people that have less than you. Anyway, they did go with it, bless them. They really did. And because I was getting quite a reputation, Bogle writing about me and, you know, the art magazines and Brian Sewell, who was the art critic of the Standard series.
- [61:05]
Jamie Laing
So you had a bit of confidence.
- [61:06]
Mary Portas
I had confidence, but it was from the outside world who are going, this is great. Look at what's happening in Harvey Nichols. And so I said, take the risk. Please take this risk with me.
- [61:15]
Jamie Laing
Wow.
- [61:15]
Mary Portas
And they did. They did.
- [61:16]
Jamie Laing
Do you know, there's a. There's a great quote, which I think I'm going to murder it. But I heard Harry Styles say it. Right. Of all people, bizarrely. But he said. And. And I want to rate to someone listening right now, which is something like, when you're in a place. When you're in a place where you don't know if it's good or bad, that's a good place to be. Cause that's an exciting place. It's when you actually don't know if something's going to work.
- [61:38]
Mary Portas
That's true.
- [61:38]
Jamie Laing
Is that true?
- [61:39]
Mary Portas
Yes, I think that's utterly true. I don't like being in it as much, but I'm in it quite often.
- [61:44]
Jamie Laing
But for someone listening right now who is, like, taking notes furiously as they're listening to this write about you, and again, you gotta go and get your book. But.
- [61:53]
What Would you say or relate to them? Say. Right. If you take the risk. How do you take a calculated risk in these moments?
- [61:58]
Mary Portas
Well, there's lots of times where I've had to and I didn't have money to fall back on. So I do understand that that's. And so I always come from the premise, you know, not the old fag packet, but boy do I have. What can I get by em. What's the worst that's gonna happen here? You know, even when I left Harvey Nichols, set up my own business, or when I was divorcing, or when I decided to finish marriage, how am I gonna do it? So you see, you know, I'm not gonna be on that streets again. I've been on the streets, you know what I mean? I'm not gonna go back there. So what. But what can I get by with. With, right? So what's the worst that can happen? Taking it from that? And then what's the real opportunity that can happen here? And then in the middle, which I always ask myself is if I don't do this, can I keep going like this? Will I, will that feed my soul? Will that actually make me ill sometimes, you know, where you feel it. I'm just unhappy here, you know, in any time in life where you're. And so I'm gonna go into the Harry Styles middle space because actually at least you're navigating and when you navigate, you're pushing, you know, your. Is this right? And that's why you see so many young people, particularly when I was younger, that become more evolved early would be the gay young men who had to navigate. I'm not like them, I can't slip into that stream and pretend. And you see them in that little mid ground going and they navigate and they create an empathy comes and a maturity comes. And I think that space in the middle is a good space every so often to put yourself in.
- [63:32]
Jamie Laing
I think that is such a brilliant lesson because people listening now may be in a business, a relationship, a country, a town, a city, a house, a friendship that isn't fitting right, but they're just too scared to take the risk. And what they should do is what is the worst that can happen?
- [63:47]
Mary Portas
What is the worst that can happen here and what will happen if I do continue on with this? And the worst for me was always that sort of low, low lying, just not, not complete unhappiness. But I, I put it in the stomach and I would get it, it would get into my stomach before it.
- [64:02]
Jamie Laing
Comes into my head, you wake up with it and you go what is that?
- [64:05]
Mary Portas
What is that? And I would rather be falling, falling flat to get myself up free than sitting with that and under someone else's auspices.
- [64:19]
Verizon Announcer
This holiday, Verizon is helping you bundle up incredible gifts and savings. You'll get the latest phone with a new line on my plan and a brand new smartwatch and tablet. No trade in needed even on our lowest price plan. That's two gifts for your family and one for you or two for you and one for someone else or three gifts for you and only you. Either way, you save big on three amazing gifts at Verizon, all on the best 5G network. Visit Verizon today. Rankings based on RootMetric Truth Score Report dated 1 2025. Your results may vary. Service plan required for watch and tablet.
- [64:48]
Sequoia Capital Announcer
Additional Terms of We all remember the choices that shaped the course of our lives in business. World renowned venture capital firm Sequoia Capital calls them Crucible Moments. Their podcast brings you inside the pivotal decisions that define some of today's most influential companies. Hosted by Sequoia's Roelof Botha, Crucible Moments Season 3 pulls back the curtain on the untold stories behind companies like Stripe, Zipline, Palo Alto Networks, Klarna Supercell, and more. Hear about the make or break decisions, early stumbles and leaps of faith that turn scrappy start into market defining forces. Once you're caught up on season three, check out some of the episodes from seasons one and two with guests like Steven Chen of YouTube, Tony Xu of DoorDash, Steve Huffman of Reddit, Brian Chetzky of Airbnb, and more. Tune in to Sequoia's new season of Crucible Moments to discover how some of the most transformational companies of the modern era were built. Crucible Moments is available everywhere you get your podcasts and@CrucibleMoments.com go listen to Crucible Moments today.
- [65:49]
Ryan Reynolds
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. You know one of the perks about having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's Unlimited Wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a try@mintmobile.com switch upfront payment.
- [66:11]
Verizon Announcer
Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months months only speed slow after 35 gigabytes if network's busy, taxes and fees extra see mint mobile.com.
- [66:25]
Jamie Laing
This has been exceptional in every. I want everyone to go and get your book.
- [66:30]
Mary Portas
Yes. Because at the back as well, my darling, thank you for keep calling it out is I look at what future business should be doing. So I shot therefore I am. How do we take what she was saying as an indictment on consumerism and take it into the world that we want. You want your babies to grow up.
- [66:44]
Jamie Laing
In 100, you've got to go and get it. We're going to leave the link in the show description so you can go and click on it and go and purchase it as well. We like to end our conversation with eight questions. Oh, God, it can be quick fire.
- [66:57]
Mary Portas
I said to my publicist, get the questions that they're going to ask. I'm going to.
- [66:59]
Jamie Laing
You're like, you're going to love this. You're going to love this. What's the saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up?
- [67:05]
Mary Portas
I. I think and I say it, it's going to be okay. You know, it's going to be okay. The other would be, do you want a cup of tea? Do you want a cup of tea? Oh, like, you know you're going to be somewhere coach.
- [67:19]
Jamie Laing
It's actually so good. It brings you to the countryside.
- [67:21]
Mary Portas
Which is why. Exactly. Which is why Nigel Slater as well recalled his be a brilliant autobiography toast. You just go, oh, yeah, yeah, smell it, got the butter on it. Cup of tea, I'm home.
- [67:32]
Jamie Laing
Brilliant. Best compliment anyone's ever given you.
- [67:40]
Oh, the one when Verity, your daughter, said, I've just.
- [67:43]
Mary Portas
What was the one that she said.
- [67:44]
Jamie Laing
When she said she was seven years. I don't want anyone to be mean to you or. So that was.
- [67:47]
Mary Portas
No, I know what the best one is. Them, actually just, you know when I've moaned. Cause your kids always go, they laugh. Kids never tell you you're great. Never. Let me tell you that putting that out there now does not happen. And you know, even the other day, I'd put on this shirt, dress, and my son went, oh, Scrooge. And I went, I.
- [68:07]
I what the. What the actual. His girlfriend was there, gorgeous. I said, florence, do you notice that Milo never says anything nice to me? He said, he said, mum, most parent. Most mums are boring. Love a bit of live love life, drink sparkly. He said, you're the coolest one, so you gotta be kept in your place.
- [68:27]
Jamie Laing
That's brilliant.
- [68:29]
Mary Portas
Okay.
- [68:30]
Jamie Laing
That's a very good compliment.
- [68:32]
Mary Portas
Yeah.
- [68:32]
Jamie Laing
What scares you most about yourself?
- [68:35]
Mary Portas
My mind is too much on and I need More sleep, Rest, rest, rest, rest. I mean, I'm like 3 o' clock in the morning, like, you know, 2 o' clock and getting up, making a bowl of music, chatting online. That's bad. Stop it. And all those things go, now that you're this age, sleep. And I want to go off.
- [68:51]
Jamie Laing
I'm still gonna get. No, it's not having lost. It's only getting quicker.
- [68:55]
Mary Portas
It's only getting faster. Yeah.
- [68:57]
Jamie Laing
When was the last time you cried?
- [68:59]
Mary Portas
Oh, I just did now with you, didn't I?
- [69:00]
Jamie Laing
You did. What's something you can't let go of?
- [69:06]
Mary Portas
The only thing I was able to take when my mum died, and it's her little Christmas cake decoration.
- [69:13]
And I. And I. None in my family. Blooming Christmas cakes. And so I make it every year just to put the little decoration on. And they all go, okay, mom, we'll have a slice. Because they know how important it is to me. Yeah, yeah. I'll never let go of that.
- [69:27]
Jamie Laing
What's your guilty pleasure?
- [69:28]
Mary Portas
Oh, I know exactly what my guilty pleasure is. A beautiful glass of red wine. A really good one.
- [69:34]
Jamie Laing
So what turns you off?
- [69:37]
Mary Portas
Oh, God, how long have we got? What turns me off? Well, my daughter has a saying. I. I look at telly sometimes. Oh, I'm not very keen on her. She went, you know what? It's always someone who's just very like you.
- [69:51]
What does that say? Jamie, can you talk? I need a therapist on that. And she names them. She names the women. I go. She drives me around the bend a bit. Yeah, okay. It's another one just like you.
- [70:03]
And I. And I don't know that's wrong. So there's something there. What turns me off is I'm very. I just can't bear grumpiness in shops, you know, Just like, why I used to love working when I was in my Saturday jobs or just saying hello or morning or. And I just can't bear it when the other day I went into a WH Smith in Waterloo and I needed a plug for the phone. I was traveling and I needed. I had forgotten my charger and the guy was there and I was. Oh. And I knew I had about three minutes before the train was moving off to. I think I was going down to Bridport to do a talk and I said, oh, Charger, Charger, charger for my phone. I'd forgotten it and I was being fun, you know. He just didn't even smile. Face like the proverbial slap dance. He didn't even smile, didn't say anything. And I'm like, georgia, Georgia, I'm being followed. Oh, which way? And he just walked me and I followed with him and he just pointed. Nothing. There was not even one syllable that came out of that mouth. And if I'm being kind, I go, oh, he must really hate his. But really, is it that bad to be in a shop and guide someone to.
- [71:12]
Jamie Laing
No, it's not.
- [71:13]
Sequoia Capital Announcer
I agree.
- [71:14]
Jamie Laing
I totally agree with you.
- [71:16]
Mary Portas
And for anyone writes and goes, oh, she'll write for her with all her money. No, I've been there, I've done it. And I would.
- [71:22]
Jamie Laing
Bad service is.
- [71:23]
Mary Portas
Really pisses me off. And to how much will be going on. And all these businesses that put out these ads that are a fortune on how you should feel this Christmas, and you go in and you've got someone with a face like a slap dance who doesn't even greet you. Pay them a bit more, entertain that staff, give them a culture that makes them feel jolly. And fuck the Christmas ads. Don't you agree?
- [71:47]
Jamie Laing
Unbelievable. Wouldn't you?
- [71:48]
Mary Portas
You would only. I'm gonna up your wages by 10%. We're not gonna pay.
- [71:52]
Jamie Laing
That's a true marketeer. That's exactly it.
- [71:54]
Mary Portas
I'm gonna make the best service. When you come in, you're gonna be greeted, you're gonna be joined, you're gonna laugh, someone's gonna show you the way. You're gonna walk out and go, I'm coming back there again.
- [72:04]
Jamie Laing
Anyway, what turns you on? What turns you on?
- [72:07]
Mary Portas
Oh, hello. Oh, baby. What turns me. I think a great. I mean, I would love the theater. When I've seen an extraordinary performance or great acting, I'm like, whoa. Or a great band. I love going and seeing live bands. I went and saw Lady Ray and I was like, wow, you are just amazing. You know, I think that's incredible. Great piece of music. So very much that you.
- [72:31]
Jamie Laing
That art is just.
- [72:33]
Mary Portas
Oh, hang on. It's just incredible.
- [72:34]
Jamie Laing
You know, when someone's doing something, it's just like, wow.
- [72:37]
Mary Portas
You can escape into another place. Place it takes you. It's like the Jenny Savile exhibitions on that. I was like, what? This is insane. Or, you know, I heard a piece of music, you know, a new little band, and you're like, wow. Or you just that. That art, the arts, and we need to keep those alive.
- [72:52]
Jamie Laing
What do you like most about yourself?
- [72:57]
Mary Portas
For some, I have been given. I. I don't ever get low. I'm very lucky about that and I'm very glad I don't. And I always believe that Change can happen. And I love that in myself that I just keep going.
- [73:10]
Jamie Laing
Last one. Christmas is coming up. Worst gift you ever received.
- [73:16]
Mary Portas
Someone sent a people when I had my Bob, particularly people thought they would do pictures of me. Paintings. I have a Barbie of me. Even a Barbie did me. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great. And then someone did a. What they call with a little bit of fabric over a thing and they stitch you.
- [73:33]
Jamie Laing
Yeah, like. I know like a. Yeah, well, they stitch it over like a wooden tambourine.
- [73:37]
Sequoia Capital Announcer
Or whatever it is.
- [73:38]
Mary Portas
Yeah. That they normally have for cushions.
- [73:40]
Jamie Laing
Yeah.
- [73:41]
Mary Portas
It was the. I was. Is that. That can't be me. And someone sent this. I'm not sure it was any human that would want to look like that or hang on their wall. And they'd obviously taken time to sew it. That was so bad.
- [73:56]
Jamie Laing
Mary, you are the greatest. Thank you so much for coming on. Great company. You're amazing.
- [74:01]
Mary Portas
Thank you.
- [74:03]
Jamie Laing
That was the greatest ever.
- [74:22]
Aramco Announcer
Who drives the world forward? The one with the answers or the one asking the right questions? At Aramco, we start every day by asking how. How can innovation help deliver reliable energy to the world? How can technology help develop new materials to reshape cities? How can collaboration help us overcome the biggest challenges? To get to the answer, we first need to ask the right question. Search Aramco Powered by how Aramco is an energy and chemicals company with oil and gas production as its primary business.
- [74:51]
Verizon Announcer
This holiday, Verizon is helping you bundle up incredible gifts and savings. You'll get the latest phone with a new line on my plan and a brand new smartwatch and tablet. No trade in needed even on our lowest price plan. That's two gifts for your family and one for you. Or two for you and one for someone else. Or three gifts for you and only you. Either way, you save big on three amazing gifts at Verizon, all on the best 5G network. Visit Verizon today. Rankings based on root metric Truth score report dated 1 2025. Your results may vary. Service plan required for watch and tablet.
- [75:20]
American Red Cross Announcer
Additional terms of this holiday season, millions of families will pack their bags, load up the car and head off for a family vacation. But not every trip is going to be somewhere fun. The American Red Cross responds to about 7,000 emergencies during the holiday season alone, from home fires to natural disasters. Providing families a safe place to go when the unthinkable happens. But they can't do it without your support. Please donatecross.org Dashing through the store, Dave's.
- [75:54]
Jamie Laing
Looking for a gift.
- [75:55]
Mary Portas
One you can't ignore. But not the socks he picked. I know. I'm putting them back. Hey, Dave, here's a tip. Put scratchers on your list.
- [76:02]
Ryan Reynolds
Oh, scratchers.
- [76:03]
Jamie Laing
Good idea.
- [76:04]
Mary Portas
It's an easy shopping trip. We're glad we could assist.
- [76:07]
Jamie Laing
Thanks, random singing people.
- [76:09]
Mary Portas
So be like Dave this holiday and give the gift of play Scratchers from the California Lottery. A little play can make your day.
- [76:19]
Please play responsibly. Must be 18 years or older to purchase player claim.