RUBY WAX: I DID NOT LOVE MY PARENTS

Summary

Great Company with Jamie Laing
Episode: RUBY WAX: I DID NOT LOVE MY PARENTS
Release Date: January 22, 2025
Host: Jamie Lang
Guest: Ruby Wax

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Introduction

In this deeply engaging episode of Great Company with Jamie Laing, host Jamie Lang sits down with the renowned comedian, writer, and mental health advocate Ruby Wax. The conversation delves into Ruby's extensive career in interviewing high-profile personalities, her personal struggles with mental health, and her complex relationship with her parents. Throughout the episode, Ruby offers candid insights into her life, her approach to interviews, and her journey toward self-acceptance and healing.

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Ruby Wax’s Interviewing Style and Experiences

Ruby Wax opens up about her distinctive interviewing technique, emphasizing the importance of building rapport and making interviewees feel comfortable. She describes her style as "almost flirting," aiming to turn interviews into a "true love affair" where both parties feel connected.

Ruby Wax [06:30]: "I really want people to like me. That's what your career was like."

Ruby recounts her experiences interviewing some of the most controversial figures, including Donald Trump and O.J. Simpson. She explains how her desire to be liked sometimes posed challenges, especially when dealing with individuals who harbored strong negative feelings toward her.

Ruby Wax [13:48]: "He reminded me of everything that scares me... I became a child again."

One of the standout moments is Ruby's account of her interview with Trump, where she attempted to inject personal questions to humanize the interaction but faced hostility instead.

Ruby Wax [12:11]: "He said, I'm gonna go upstairs. I got a headache."

Ruby also shares a humorous yet unsettling anecdote about O.J. Simpson attempting to stab her with a banana during an interview, highlighting the unpredictable nature of her work.

Ruby Wax [20:18]: "He tried to stab me with a banana. That went on American television on all the news channels."

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Relationships with Parents and Early Life

A significant portion of the conversation centers around Ruby's tumultuous relationship with her parents. She candidly discusses the emotional neglect and psychological manipulation she endured, particularly from her father, which has profoundly impacted her self-esteem and relationships.

Ruby Wax [32:28]: "No, no, no, I didn't. I do in a primal way, the way an animal does."

Ruby reflects on how her parents' dysfunction led her to develop coping mechanisms such as humor and a strong desire for acceptance. She describes her mother as "hysterical" and shares vivid memories of her father's emotional abuse.

Ruby Wax [29:38]: "He'd play mind games. He'd keep telling me how rich I was... but he kept me at home till I was in my late 30s."

Her experiences in boarding school from the age of eight further compounded her feelings of abandonment and shaped her need to be seen and appreciated by others.

Ruby Wax [36:00]: "I think that Trump hates women. And I think my dad did, too."

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Mental Health Journey

Ruby Wax openly discusses her struggles with depression, detailing how it manifested in her adolescence and the long road to understanding and managing her mental health. She shares her frustration with the initial misdiagnosis and the lack of proper support, leading to prolonged suffering before finally being correctly diagnosed in her early thirties.

Ruby Wax [42:03]: "Only when I was 31, did somebody say this is depression."

Her journey includes attempts at various therapies, including Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR), which she describes with both skepticism and acknowledgment of its benefits.

Ruby Wax [49:27]: "It's left it. Finally. It's an episodic disease."

Ruby emphasizes the importance of understanding and addressing mental health issues, advocating for greater empathy and support for those struggling.

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Career Challenges and Evolution

Ruby reflects on the highs and lows of her career, including the immense popularity of her shows in the 80s and 90s, which at times overshadowed her personal achievements. She discusses the pressure to transition into reality TV, which she resisted to maintain her integrity and authenticity.

Ruby Wax [54:16]: "I couldn't do those shows. I didn't need it."

Her decision to leave mainstream television paved the way for her educational pursuits, including her studies at Oxford, which she humorously refers to as her "greatest accomplishment."

Ruby Wax [56:00]: "I went to Oxford. That's my greatest accomplishment."

Ruby also touches on the impact of social media on personal and professional life, expressing her disdain for the relentless comparison and competition it fosters.

Ruby Wax [57:23]: "Competing with the world. And that is if somebody has millions of viewers. I don't want to know."

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Personal Growth and Acceptance

Throughout the episode, Ruby emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and the ongoing journey of self-acceptance. She discusses how her experiences with family, mental health, and her career have shaped her into a resilient and empathetic individual. Ruby advocates for continuous personal development and the embracing of one's flaws as a path to true wisdom.

Ruby Wax [63:22]: "You can't do everything. That's why I studied therapy and mindfulness, is that this is the human condition, not my condition."

Ruby concludes by highlighting the significance of genuine connections and the human desire for understanding and love, reinforcing the episode's overarching theme of introspection and personal growth.

Ruby Wax [64:00]: "That I can be funny."

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Conclusion

This episode of Great Company offers a profound exploration of Ruby Wax's life, blending humor with raw honesty. Ruby's insights into the art of interviewing, coupled with her personal narratives about overcoming adversity, provide listeners with both entertainment and valuable lessons in resilience and empathy. Jamie Lang skillfully navigates the conversation, allowing Ruby to share her story authentically and inspiringly.

Whether you're a fan of Ruby Wax or seeking inspiration in personal growth and mental health, this episode delivers a compelling and heartfelt dialogue that resonates long after the conversation ends.

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Notable Quotes

• Ruby Wax [06:30]: "I really want people to like me. That's what your career was like."
• Ruby Wax [13:48]: "He reminded me of everything that scares me... I became a child again."
• Ruby Wax [20:18]: "He tried to stab me with a banana. That went on American television on all the news channels."
• Ruby Wax [32:28]: "No, no, no, I didn't. I do in a primal way, the way an animal does."
• Ruby Wax [36:00]: "I think that Trump hates women. And I think my dad did, too."
• Ruby Wax [42:03]: "Only when I was 31, did somebody say this is depression."
• Ruby Wax [49:27]: "It's left it. Finally. It's an episodic disease."
• Ruby Wax [54:16]: "I couldn't do those shows. I didn't need it."
• Ruby Wax [56:00]: "I went to Oxford. That's my greatest accomplishment."
• Ruby Wax [57:23]: "Competing with the world. And that is if somebody has millions of viewers. I don't want to know."
• Ruby Wax [63:22]: "You can't do everything. That's why I studied therapy and mindfulness, is that this is the human condition, not my condition."
• Ruby Wax [64:00]: "That I can be funny."

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Final Thoughts

For those interested in exploring more about Ruby Wax’s life and insights, her books and current projects offer an in-depth look into her journey. Jamie Lang encourages listeners to connect with the podcast through email or social media to share their thoughts and engage further with the show's community.

Subscribe to Great Company with Jamie Laing to stay updated with more inspiring conversations every Wednesday.

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Note: Advertisements and non-content segments from the transcript have been excluded to maintain focus on the core interview content.

Transcript

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Jemima]

That sounds like a threat.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Jemima]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Jemima]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

What if we just say forever?

[Ruby Wax]

Okay.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Jemima]

Get unlimited talk, text and Data for just $25 a month.

[Ruby Wax]

With Boost Mobile Forever, after 30 gigabytes.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, sure thing.

[Unknown]

Hey, you sold that car yet?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, sold it to Carvana.

[Unknown]

Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy.

[Jamie Lang]

The guy who wanted to pay me.

[Ryan Reynolds]

In foreign currency, no interest over 36 months.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, no.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient.

[Ruby Wax]

Just like that? Yeah. No hassle? None. That is super convenient. Sell your car to Carvana and swap.

[Unknown]

Hassle for convenience. Pickup fees may apply.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. At Mint Mobile we like to do the opposite of what big wireless does. They charge you a lot. We charge you a little. So naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices due to not hating you. That's right. We're cutting the price of mint unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a [e-mail] switch.

[Unknown]

$45 upfront payment, equivalent to $15 per month.

[Ruby Wax]

New customers on first three month plan.

[Unknown]

Only taxes and fees.

Extra Speed slower above 40 GB. Details.

[Jamie Lang]

Hello everyone. My name is Jamie Lang and this is great company. Well, hello.

[Unknown]

Hello, Hello. You always start with a well, hello. Yeah, you can still pronounce the H. Jemima.

[Jamie Lang]

Oi, Jemima.

[Unknown]

Listen up.

[Jamie Lang]

I used to say Jemima.

[Unknown]

Jamie. I don't know what I was about to call you then. This Is Jamie.

[Jamie Lang]

Jamie.

[Unknown]

And I'm Jemima.

[Jamie Lang]

And Jemima. Hey. I'm the host of the show. Welcome back. And Jemima is the producer of this incredible show and does all of the hard work. It's new year 2025. How are you feeling about it?

[Unknown]

25? Yeah. Did you think we'd have flying cars by now?

[Jamie Lang]

In 2025?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Which I think that when I was younger, or last year, when we were younger. Yeah. Maybe I used to watch the Jetsons, which I didn't like.

[Unknown]

The what?

[Jamie Lang]

The Jetsons. What's that? The Jetsons. That's the Flintstones.

[Unknown]

What's the Jetsons?

[Jamie Lang]

It was a TV show after the Simpsons, before Futurama, wasn't it?

[Unknown]

What?

[Jamie Lang]

Okay.

[Unknown]

There was no Fresh Prince. It went okay.

[Jamie Lang]

Here we go.

[Unknown]

Here we go.

[Jamie Lang]

You didn't have sponsors.

[Unknown]

No, I didn't. Channel 2. Channel 2, CBBC. Blue Peter news round straight into Neighbours, then Simpsons, then Fresh Prince.

[Jamie Lang]

Wow. What was your favorite Simpsons.

[Unknown]

Oh, so many. I quote Homer a lot when he goes, everyone's stupid except me. Where you know, and you're like, I'm definitely wrong in this situation. Everyone in the whole world is stupid except me.

[Jamie Lang]

Hey, we're back. Obviously, we're back with another episode. And today's really exciting because we have Ruby Wax on the show.

[Unknown]

Ruby Wax. Are you excited interviewing an interviewer?

[Jamie Lang]

Nerve wracking.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Ruby Wax, for anyone who doesn't know, she is a seasoned professional in the interviewing space and world in the kind of 90s and 2000s and 80s, maybe. She was a huge hit on television interviewing from people from Donald Trump to don King to O.J. simpson to Madonna, it's Mad Jim Carrey. And her interviewing technique, I would say, was very much her trying to get people to like her in the interview.

[Unknown]

Sounds familiar.

[Jamie Lang]

Sounds very familiar. But almost flirting, I would say. And she is incredibly smart. She's been diagnosed with bipolar. She has moments of depression that she's very open with. She's huge in charity as well. And she's all around a complete legend.

[Unknown]

Yeah, she.

[Jamie Lang]

From my take of Ruby, she's kind of wild and crazy in the most brilliant way. And she's about to come on the episode and we're gonna chat to her about loads of different things.

[Unknown]

I'm very, very excited. I think you guys are gonna really hit it off. But also, I like you interviewing an interviewer because I'm also. I just think it's really fascinating, the mechanics behind how you get someone to open up and get your side. So I'm really intrigued because the people that she's interviewed, like O.J. simpson and Donald Trump, she said at O.J.

[Jamie Lang]

Simpson, she said, I know you did it. Yeah, it's mad like she asked the wild questions, fearlessness and it's nerve wracking interviewing an interviewer because the interviewer knows what you're doing as techniques in order to make them feel comfortable because they've done it themselves. But hopefully she'll be calm and generous and.

[Unknown]

Oh, there's no way she won't not like you.

[Jamie Lang]

Are you ready for this?

[Unknown]

She won't like you. She won't not like.

[Jamie Lang]

She won't not like me. She won't not, not, not not like me.

[Unknown]

I don't know. Well, anyway, she will like you.

[Jamie Lang]

We are very excited now. If you also, if you want to get in touch with us, you can. We have an email which is. Please do. It's great. Companyproductions.co.uk, or you can sign to our DMs@greatcompany podcast. That is correct. We want to hear from you what you think of the show, what you think of Jemima, what you think of myself. You can ask Jemima any questions, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah, ask. Yeah, go on then, Go on then.

[Jamie Lang]

Go on then. Ask us some questions. Okay. And if you haven't subscribed to the show, please do. You ready for this?

[Unknown]

I am so ready.

[Jamie Lang]

Please welcome Ruby Wax to Great Company.

[Ruby Wax]

Hi, I'm Ruby Wax and I'm on Great Company and I am Great Company. Did you get a prenup?

[Jamie Lang]

No.

[Ruby Wax]

Okay, think about it.

[Jamie Lang]

Lots of people were talking about prenups and things like that, but I kind of think, I think this is like, if you're going into, if you're committing to this marriage and this relationship, then if it breaks down, then some of the faults are my fault. So maybe then.

[Ruby Wax]

Oh my God, you're so good.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, that's what I think.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, you're so good.

[Jamie Lang]

Isn't that the.

[Ruby Wax]

Your teeth are so white.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

I really like you now. Bagel teeth and no prenup. That's it. That's all I need.

[Jamie Lang]

Ruby, I was, I'm really excited for this because I said to this to you before we started. I'm, I, I'm a huge fan of yours because I think that your interview style is similar to mine in a way where I really want people to like me. And I think this is what your career was like.

[Ruby Wax]

I think all interviews want, you know, want to be liked. Otherwise why would you do it?

[Jamie Lang]

Because maybe People are just interested in other people.

[Ruby Wax]

Come on. Everybody's interested in themselves first and then they want to see if the people like them. That's.

[Jamie Lang]

Do you think that's it?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, at the bottom of it, it is. I mean, I'm fascinated with people, but if I see a bad vibe like with, with Trump or with O.J. or with Bill Cosby, who hated my guts on sight, you lose your erection pretty quickly. You lose your interest in them and you're just trying to survive. You're just trying to stay afloat. So it's better when you see the love in the eyes and then you're really interested because they're interested in you. It's gotta be a mutual cha cha.

[Jamie Lang]

You were so right. That's exactly it. But do you not see it as a challenge when someone doesn't like you and you have to interview them? Do you not see that as a challenge or you just don't like that?

[Ruby Wax]

I like to win them over. I like to go from blah, like Carrie Fisher, you know, who kind of has it all, or Jim Carrey says, I've seen this before. And then you see their eyes light up. Cause you're funny. I mean, that's why people always said you talk too much. I said, but this is a courtship. That's foreplay. And a lot of times we played in the foreplay because you have to audition for the person you're interviewing. Then they really put out, so you better be funny. Oh, finish your intro.

[Jamie Lang]

That was my intro. I don't have it. So how do I get you to like me then?

[Ruby Wax]

Well, I like you on side, so you don't have to work that hard. You could give me some of your candy and you already gave me a bagel, so I'm yours. I'm really cheap.

[Jamie Lang]

You're that easy?

[Ruby Wax]

I'm that easy.

[Jamie Lang]

You're that easy.

[Ruby Wax]

Uh huh.

[Jamie Lang]

Can I ask you, when you interview people. Right. And you. Because it's sort of separated. Right. So when it's an intimate relationship where you actually know someone and you have to be intimate with them, is that harder for you than when you first meet someone and you have to interview them without knowing them because there's no preconception of what you're like?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. It's easier when you don't know them.

[Unknown]

True.

[Jamie Lang]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

Because if you know the answer, your eyes glaze over in a way you can't. It's like an actor, if I'm not an actor. But if you have to read a line the second time you don't buy it. So you see the discovery. You know, if the Courtship of Carrie Fisher, and I was. And then once you know her, you wouldn't see the excitement. I mean, the whole thing was about getting her to really love me. Not even like. And so we stayed friends for 35 years. Cause that's how good my audition was. I really pulled everything out of the hat.

[Jamie Lang]

Ruby, what is the obsession with wanting to be loved by these people?

[Ruby Wax]

Because there's no interview unless there's that kind of magic you can, you know. Otherwise, you're just churning out the questions, and they've heard them all before. But if you're really hooked up, you ask out of the corner of your mind. It's like being in a courtship.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, I get that. But there has to be something deeper there. Do you know what? Just quickly to sort of caveat that it's so strange. I know I can ask you anything, and you would either answer it honestly or say, I'm not gonna answer that. Where. With some interviews that I'm in and I speak to someone, I can see they're being cagey with you. There is no sort of cage. You're a very open person.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, I'd be honest with you.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, you would be.

[Ruby Wax]

I don't see any reason. I mean, it's not like you'd answer, but you'd say, why do you ask me that?

[Jamie Lang]

Y.

[Ruby Wax]

Are you trying to enhance your career? But I don't have many secrets, and the ones that I do have, you wouldn't know about. So what's the question?

[Jamie Lang]

I want to know, though. But there must be something deeper of why you want those people to love you. Because I saw the interview with Trump. Right. Again. I rewatched it.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, I lost that one.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, but you lost it because you were so nervous going into it.

[Ruby Wax]

No, I always. I'm hopeful. And, you know, I watch my makeup artist, you know, do his makeup. So he was already a red American Indian by the time I hit him. And he had no hair then he had one strand grown out of his nose, I think. And then she wound it. Wound it, wound it. Like a Mr. Whippy. So when you see somebody's flaws, you know, and you're not taken by their beauty or you're taken by their power. I didn't. I thought he was a real estate guy. I knew we were on a private jet and he had a gold B day, but otherwise, I just thought he was a normal guy. So the hatred he had for me was astounding. That took me by surprise, he hated me because he couldn't figure me out. And I became an idiot. If somebody treats you like an idiot, if I did now, you'd become an idiot. You become what people impose on you if they're very strong, otherwise you tell them to fuck off.

[Jamie Lang]

Why didn't you tell Trump to fuck off?

[Ruby Wax]

Because I was so scared. He reminded me of everything that scares me. You know, a male coming at me with loathing and thinking I'm an idiot reminds me too much of my dad. And he, you know, I went under with him because I was a kid. So I became a child again and asked him some of the most stupid questions I've ever asked in my life. And my voice went into kind of helium. It was like a trapped rodent. And then I don't blame him for saying, get her off the plane. Unfortunately, it was at 33,000ft. Unfortunately. But it was okay. It made a great show.

[Jamie Lang]

He said, I'm gonna go upstairs. I got a headache.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, well, hatred. Where's upstairs in a plane? You tell me. It wasn't a double Decker.

[Jamie Lang]

There's an interesting moment in it, which is. And the reason I bring up Trump, just because of what's happening in the States and things like that.

[Ruby Wax]

Let's not bring him up.

[Jamie Lang]

Let's not bring him up too much. But there was a moment when you sort of. And I don't know how to describe this to someone who doesn't sort of look into it more deeply, but you're talking to Trump and there's a moment where you try and catch. You almost catch him in a sentence, where you start to start talking about his type. You can't date someone, and you go, you wouldn't date me. And then you start to feel comfortable. Cause you're almost flirting with him at some point.

[Ruby Wax]

Except he still hates me.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, he does.

[Ruby Wax]

So I couldn't continue. He thought that was really cheap. And if I knew what I know now, I could have hung him. Not that it would matter, because it's impossible to hang somebody who, you know, his crassness and his decadence is what makes him win. It's my country that's sick, not him. Well, he's sick, but the fact that they vote for him means they're deeply disturbed. But that was a stupid question. I should have let him say, not laugh. When he said he wanted to be the President of the United States, which you don't see. I laughed. I thought he's a great comedian and didn't realize it was serious. But I Should have just kept really calm, really centered and said, tell me about your policies. And just flattered him. He would have, you know, he would have cornered himself. But instead, who did they with? You know, what a dumb question. And of course that's intimidating. You know, that's gonna piss him off. Cuz he's a grandmaster in his mind. You don't ask that question.

[Jamie Lang]

What do you mean he's a grandmaster in his mind?

[Ruby Wax]

Well, he's, you know, an important figure. He's the next president of the United States in his mind. So you don't ask who you're gonna date. That was a dumb question. Of course he hated me.

[Jamie Lang]

What other rooms have you been in where you straightaway realized that you haven't been?

[Ruby Wax]

When Bill Cosby tried to choke me, meeting me, he put his hands around me and drag. That's a big sign. That's a big sign. And then he had an imaginary phone saying, get her off the set. And making me call him Dr. Cosby.

[Jamie Lang]

It's crazy. Really.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. It's only a few people. Burt Reynolds didn't like me. I don't know if you know who he is.

[Jamie Lang]

I know who Burt Reynolds is.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, he hated me. Kind of thought I was just a flirtatious little girl. But by the end, you watch A love Affair, he gets out, you know that I'm funny. So he starts showing off. When you get them, they show off. Cause they want you to like them.

[Jamie Lang]

Wow. So it's this game that you can play where you.

[Ruby Wax]

Jim Carrey was a moment I couldn't get rid of him. But in the beginning, he's rolling his eyes going, how much time do you need? And then he says, she's fun. And then he starts to say, I can do magic. So in the Dorchester, he says, I can do a magic trick where I pull the tablecloths from under some serious China tea sets. Some serious china, like really from the Ming dynasty. And I know he can't do it, so I hid behind the sofa. I know this guy can't do it, but he wants me to like him. So off he goes and destroys the entire room.

[Jamie Lang]

It's so good. He tries to put it out and it just goes. And you're just enjoying the chaos of it as well.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. And he knows I'm not a regular interviewer going, I don't think you should do that right now. And here's my next question. I'd throw away that script and just play. And then eventually he won't leave. Cause it's free for All.

[Jamie Lang]

It's funny. You're right. You talk it like it's like a love affair. It is. Typical interview styles where you sit and you ask questions. Yours isn't. Yours is a true love affair.

[Ruby Wax]

Or it's flirtatious. And there's a moment where you can hear when you do, when the hormones do come on, because the voices start to sound like they're doing the tango. It's not my question. Your answer. It really sounds like it's a dance.

[Jamie Lang]

How do you prepare for an interview?

[Ruby Wax]

Then you just get everything you can about them and throw it away.

[Jamie Lang]

Explain that more to me.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, I get the information, so I'm not an idiot. You know, I can say to Bette Midler, I knew you worked in a canning factory canning pineapples. And she's so flattered. But then I say, but I was a greater waitress than you were. And I canned things, too, but faster than you could. And then she gets. She's flattered that I know, but she also knows that I tailed it with something saying, and I'm better. Then she explains to me how fast she and I go, okay, you win, because they want to be the popular girl and I'm the handmaiden. I get it. That's my position.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, but it feels like in your own mind, you're having sort of this battle with the person that you're thinking, okay, do they like me? Don't they like me? Okay, how are they feeling? What is the power situation going on where perhaps someone would just sit there and just take it as it comes and they wouldn't have to have that sort of battle as they're going along?

[Ruby Wax]

I'm not really battling. I'm just watching their eyes. It's not really a battle. You watch them soften up from hard to soft. And so it's not a battle. I'm just reading. I'm reading the whole time, which is nice. It's flattering. People like you looking in their eyes.

[Jamie Lang]

That'S almost a little bit intimidating for some reason. I don't know why.

[Ruby Wax]

No, they do. I'm looking in your eyes. Are you intimidated?

[Jamie Lang]

No, but I think. What I do think is that you're highly intelligent and you understand people's body language. So what I would do then is I'm thinking, right? I gotta sit in a certain way and be assessed.

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, no, I hope you don't do that.

[Jamie Lang]

No, I don't. But there is a way in that. How can you read people so well then?

[Ruby Wax]

I just can. I'm really you know, I don't have a lot of things. I can't memorize facts unless I'm really interested. But it dribbles through me. You know, I'm not intelligent in with most things, but I can read people, you know, that's why I would have made a great shrink. Except I didn't make a great shrink. I got the degree. But then I would go, when people were talking to me, I'd go, oh, come on, just cut to the punchline. I know what you did, and you're not allowed to do that. You have to let him talk for a year.

[Jamie Lang]

Because you study psychology.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

So what do you mean that you would just cut to the chase?

[Ruby Wax]

Well, sometimes you can read people and you want to go, this is what I'm getting from you. But you're not allowed to do that as a therapist. You kind of know their defenses. And, you know, you might be wrong, you might be completely wrong, but, you know, it's guesswork. But I'm usually right. If you do say something about somebody, they say you're right. It's my only talent. P.S. i'm not being arrogant. There is no other talent. I mean, now, Alan Rickman taught me how to do comedy, but that took 30 years.

[Jamie Lang]

So when you interviewed O.J. simpson.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, that was a good one.

[Jamie Lang]

That's a good one. And notoriously, O.J. simpson got away with murder.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

So what is your take on it?

[Ruby Wax]

Well, I knew he did. I knew he did. So I was teasing him the whole time and letting him go by Judge Ito's house, who was the judge? And scream asshole out the window. I knew, you know, you just let him hang himself. But I had a. Unlike Trump, I had a kind of fondness for him, too. Cause he has a split personality. I think one part of him doesn't know and the other part does know. So he's got this kind of. It's a pathology. I think it's called doubling.

[Jamie Lang]

Wow. Explain that more.

[Ruby Wax]

One part of the brain knows and the other part doesn't, and it's literally a split. It's not schizophrenia. So he really believes that he didn't do it, but he wanted to be caught. So when I said, did you do it? And he said, don't ask me. And I said, but did you do it? He was kind of. You saw a little smile on his face. He wanted me to nudge him a little bit. I constantly nudged him through the whole interview. You know, he told me about that he was going to be a Scientologist, but Ron Hubbard said no. He was already at the alpha state. He didn't have to. Now, come on. Ron Hubbard was a salesman. He'd say, yeah, you need to go through this many steps to reach whatever nirvana, whatever their ultimate state is. That's how they make money. He said he could win a game just by the power of his thoughts. So we left that in. I mean, that doesn't indicate a healthy mind. He could control people through his psychic energy. He wouldn't have said that if he didn't trust me.

[Jamie Lang]

He wouldn't have, would he? No. But it's funny how you think O.J. was a killer, but you were more intimidated by Trump. When you're sitting next to someone who's killed people, that feels.

[Ruby Wax]

I don't know. I don't know. Part of him didn't know, and part of him was quite amusing and charming. Whereas Trump was 100% killer, even though he didn't literally kill anybody. I just thought there was a softness about OJ That I quite liked. And at the end, because he trusted me so much, at the very end, I said, just open the door and say hello. You know how you do the meet and greet. And he tried to stab me with a banana. I mean, that went on American television.

[Jamie Lang]

What?

[Ruby Wax]

At the very end, I opened the door and he goes, makes a noise from Psycho and tries to stab me with a banana. That takes great trust. And then the director said, that wasn't. We didn't get it all on camera. Could you do it again? But, I mean, I have a camera crew. He's not going to kill me. And it's a banana. But somebody stole it from the edit suite. And it was on American television on all the news channels.

[Jamie Lang]

When you're interviewing someone like that and you get a clip in your mind, you going, this is going to be great.

[Ruby Wax]

I didn't know it was going to be that great. Cause it was about 4 in the morning. I mean, part of the other thing is I interviewed them over either a week or two days. So I don't know what's good and what's bad. I'm just, you know, like you. I'm just gonna keep going until they get exhausted.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, that's exactly what I just keep wearing the duct tape.

[Ruby Wax]

Just keep going.

[Jamie Lang]

But that's not quite true. Cause with Hugh Hefner, you were given like 10 minutes or an hour or two hours, and you last. Then you stayed a week.

[Ruby Wax]

Stayed a week, yeah. Cause he really liked me. I didn't see him as a guy who exploited women. He was a teddy bear, you know. He told me about his childhood and why he had this fantasy of Barbie Dol. He kind of got stuck at 16 and what his upbringing was like. And if somebody's conscious about their. If they're aware, then it's all forgiven. I mean, that's very evolved for me. If somebody can state, this is what I am and I'm aware of it, then I go, oh, that's intelligence. Instead of just off the cuff saying, yeah, this guy's an idiot. And they did this to me and this isn't my fault. When they say, you know, this happened in my childhood, so I'm aware why I do this. Also, he's a great PR guy, so he knew what would make him famous. He doesn't buy it. All he does on Friday nights is have his old cronies over and they play, you know, they watch tv. That's his pleasure, not screwing Barbies. And he knew I knew that, so he said, stay for a week. And also, I was quite compassionate to the. To the bunnies. You know, I lived with them and we had pillow fights and I liked them. And a lot of them were sent to school by him. You know, he was really into educating them if they wanted to be, and he'd promote them. One of them was, you know, 60 years old. She was a bunny. But he gives them jobs. I like the guy.

[Jamie Lang]

You have this real sort of slate clean empathy or just understanding of people for who they are. You don't sort of judge them for their mishaps or mishaps or what they.

[Ruby Wax]

Do or their pr. No, I'm just looking at what's in front of me.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. You look at the soul.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, I guess so. Does that sound arrogant?

[Jamie Lang]

No, it doesn't sound arrogant. It sounds truthful, which. Which I think is really quite great. I'm a big believer in that. I don't really. I did a reality TV show, right. I don't know if you saw it.

[Ruby Wax]

Look, you're blushing.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, well, I am blushing.

[Ruby Wax]

You're blushing. You've got all pinched.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

Everybody starts somewhere.

[Jamie Lang]

Thank you, Ruby. And for many years I was embarrassed about what I had done because every door I went to was closed. No, not yet. Things like that. And then I thought, well, no, embrace it. I also came from, you know, a boarding school and privately educated. So it wasn't a great combination to be reality tv. Privately educated. That was not sexy in any way. And so. But I knew what I represent as a person. And so now I look at people as the individuals rather than what they have or haven't done. And I think that's really important.

[Ruby Wax]

Totally. I mean, one of my ideas, you know, we were talking about podcasts, is I'm really interested, from my point of view, the way I analyze in reality stars. I really want to know what they were thinking. Where did they come from? You know, it is the celebrity of now. I'm fascinated just the way I was when they were real movie stars. But we have to acknowledge they don't have a lot of talent. But that's okay. I just want to know what motivated them and who they are. So that's one of my ideas. I'd be fascinated.

[Jamie Lang]

So if you were going to ask me a question, what would you ask?

[Ruby Wax]

Well, you aren't that, you know, you aren't that to me, really. You're a good interviewer. Yeah. I don't see you as that. But if you really, you know, that's. You are fresh off married at first sight. Boy, would I be interested. What were you thinking? Who did you come across as? What happened between these two scenes? I would be curious, and I wanna call it what an older person is trying to know.

[Jamie Lang]

Do you think when you look at someone, you know, we talk about OJ and seeing his mother, nothing is as.

[Ruby Wax]

Interesting as those people? Let's be clear. No, I mean, that was an A list of A lists.

[Jamie Lang]

But they're above celebrity in a weird way. There's celebrity, which is.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, they're either infamous or famous and for the right reasons. They didn't just show up one day on an island or eat their young. You know, they had talent.

[Jamie Lang]

Do you think when you were interviewing, you know, these amazing. I mean, just. I was going through the list today with Jemima, the celebrities that. And the people that you've interviewed is wild. The A list of the A list of the A list. Do you think they were more open to sharing than people are now?

[Ruby Wax]

Well, there was no PR and there was no, you know, there was no TikTok or whatever. So you knew nothing. So somebody comes along and really wants to know about their soul. They're so flattered. Nobody ever asked that before. They're asking, what was your last film? What was it like to play against, I don't know, Liz Taylor? What was it like? They just wanna know Surface. And you get bored of talking about surface, so somebody suddenly undercuts it and says, as a human, let's take the mask off with Sharon Stone. What's your. She said she sees a crease on her Knee. And it reminds her. She hears a clock ticking, she knows she's got seconds. And so there's. She really wasn't. You know, she wasn't just a beauty. She was inspired. She was intellectual. Pamela Anderson, smart cookie. She understood herself. She knew the game she was playing, and she was a real sophisticated woman underneath that sensational exterior. So when it left, she's still interesting. You know, she didn't think of herself as that. She just knew it was a commodity. Now, that's talent.

[Jamie Lang]

I find the idea of playing a Persona so interesting.

[Ruby Wax]

Everybody plays a Persona. You think, who's real?

[Jamie Lang]

Trump. Does he play a Persona?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, well, he's ill. That's a different story. That's a different story. But I like when they take off their mask and they're exhausted. It's tiring, you know, with the mask. So when I let them take it off, they're so relieved, and they think, who wants to know this? And I did.

[Jamie Lang]

But then. Do you play a Persona?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, of course. I mean, I don't smile this much, and when I get back in the car, I'm kind of nothing. I really have no Persona. When I'm not talking to somebody, and it depends who I'm talking to. If I'm really interested, then I turn it on, I kind of glow a little bit. You know, I'm excited. But, you know, if I'm just talking to them, unless the bus driver suddenly says something so interesting, then I'll turn it on. But, you know, you turn on the motor. You turn off the motor. It's like driving a car.

[Jamie Lang]

But everyone, when they're by themselves, doesn't have a personality, really. No.

[Ruby Wax]

But if I go to a dinner party, I don't have to be, you know, I don't have to switch it on. Whereas when I was younger, I switched it on, no matter who. Big, glowy, kind of American, kind of obnoxious.

[Jamie Lang]

Why do you think Trump is ill.

[Ruby Wax]

If you don't notice it? I can't even tell you.

[Jamie Lang]

In that interview or afterwards, you've spoken about the fact that he reminds you of your dad. And that's why.

[Ruby Wax]

That was my dad. That was what he was like.

[Jamie Lang]

Can you talk to me about your childhood?

[Ruby Wax]

Well, you know, I wrote about it in my book. I know I'm not as well as I thought I was, and other books, and this is not all I talk about, but they were torturers, both of them. And my mother innocently, and my dad on purpose. You know, he'd play mind games. He'd keep Telling me how rich I was, you know, and he'd take me to the bank and rattle some papers downstairs going, boy, are you rich. It turned out I wasn't at all. But he kept me at home till I was, you know, in my late 30s. I thought we were really rich. And every time he'd do something vicious, I'd write down a number saying, he owes me this much. He owes me this much. If there was a beating, I charged a lot.

[Jamie Lang]

Ruby, you do talk about in your book, and I want to talk about that, but can you explain what you mean by your mom was abusive?

[Ruby Wax]

No. She was hysterical. You know, so, I mean, I can make the joke that she was on the ceiling with Q tips. You know, she was never without a sponge. She was hysterical. You know, we don't know why, but it was that Viennese. You know, you order something off the menu, it sounds like you're declaring war on Europe. That was the voice. So you were always thinking, oh, my God, the Nazis are coming. And they brought the war from Europe into our kitchen. Now, I can't blame it on the war, but he was mean. Oh, boy, are you a sad sack who's gonna marry you. Oh, my God, Ruby, you're an idiot. It never stopped. So. Even when I did well, he'd say, I saw you in the Royal Shakespeare Company. Your teeth were so shiny. I can't make that one up.

[Jamie Lang]

But there's almost humor to it.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, well, I turned it in. You know, my first book that Carrie Fisher edited, she said, talk about your parents. They're almost as bad as mine are, which is the greatest review you can get. Yeah, they were nuts. I could tell you stories, but that's a whole different thing. Yeah, but then I go into. Well, then I go into comedy mode.

[Jamie Lang]

But don't go into comedy mode. Like, stay.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, I can't stay serious.

[Jamie Lang]

Why? Because it's too painful.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, no, I'm not in pain anymore. But if you take out the sting, it's hilarious. You know, we had an air conditioner in the house, and my mother wanted to save money. You have to. It's a visual.

[Jamie Lang]

I miss that.

[Ruby Wax]

It's a visual. And I said, please turn on the air conditioner. Cause I just had surgery on my feet. I couldn't get up. And she said, what's the difference? You open the window, it just escapes. So I said, I'm begging you. I'm dying in here. You know, crickets are sticking to my teeth. So she goes across the room and hits the wall. Nowhere near the air conditioner button and just goes m. Like, I think that was the air conditioning.

[Jamie Lang]

Wow.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. Well, that's only one.

[Jamie Lang]

That is a.

[Ruby Wax]

She got a thing with a broom. She keeps. Like, I have this, too. If I get my mind, it's obsessive thinking. If I get my mind on something, like, I need to get anything. It could be anything. Like a lampshade. Even when I'm talking to you, I'm picturing, I gotta get a lampshade. I gotta get a lamp. So she had something about a broom. I needed the broom. But a special kind with the bristles. And then she. Eventually she's here, she goes home to Chicago, and she says, did you get the broom? She mentioned it maybe 40 times a day. I said, no, I didn't get the broom. She says, oh, your aunt died. What kind of broom do you think you're getting? I said, whoa, whoa, whoa. Did you just say my aunt died? She said, okay, back the clock up 24 hours. She's not dead now. Did you get the broom? You cannot make up my mother's lines.

[Jamie Lang]

But you loved your parents, right?

[Ruby Wax]

No, no, no, I didn't. I do in a primal way, the way an animal does. But I didn't really know who they were. I didn't really know who they were. I'm sure they were charming when they were young, and my mother was the most beautiful woman in Vienna and spoke about nine languages. But no, I don't know who they were. And I had nobody to compare notes to because I didn't have brothers and sisters.

[Jamie Lang]

Does that make you. Does that upset you?

[Ruby Wax]

No. Because when they die, you're not really upset. Am I the only person who talks like this? Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

But do you know what? I cannot tell you how, like, freeing this conversation is. I said it to you at the beginning. I can ask you anything, and you.

[Ruby Wax]

Just say, maybe I'm lying. I don't know. Maybe I really love them. But I really wasn't upset.

[Jamie Lang]

But I feel like it's impossible. My thing is, I mean, if I.

[Ruby Wax]

Was another kid and I was really successful and I was a boy, maybe we would have a great relationship. Maybe.

[Jamie Lang]

Why? You think it's because you were a girl that he was.

[Ruby Wax]

I think that Trump hates women. And I think my dad did, too. Unless you fuck him, you know, then. Sorry, can you say that word?

[Jamie Lang]

You can say whatever you want.

[Ruby Wax]

There you go. Then they're kind of, you know, meat. But he didn't like women.

[Jamie Lang]

That's like him. Almost like a sociopath.

[Ruby Wax]

No, he's not a sociopath.

[Jamie Lang]

Narcissistic. No.

[Ruby Wax]

Narcissistic? Yeah, it's hard because I'm being too.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay, no, you're not being. Are you kidding me? This is. This is. Jemima is going. More, please.

[Ruby Wax]

More.

[Jamie Lang]

Behind you. Honestly, my thing is, okay, it doesn't matter who your parents are. Your desire.

[Ruby Wax]

Did you love your parents? Yeah, I bet you did. Cause you're quite healthy.

[Jamie Lang]

I was at boarding school from 8 years old, I was.

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, that could screw you up.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, that screwed me up a little bit.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

So I have. What do I have? You know, fear of abandonment, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff. And I had this real need. But it was. For me, it was a winning formula because I was thrown into an environment, eight years old, where I had to make friends. So I had to discover what these 12 people that I slept with, these strangers in my room, how they interacted. So I became very good at reading individuals and also making situations entertaining. Cause I thought they saw the humor. They were all boys, but I knew, okay, how do I become sort of the alpha in this room? I need to then entertain. And I was good at sports, so that combination was really healthy for me.

[Ruby Wax]

That made you win. Yeah, I was funny, too. That made you survive.

[Jamie Lang]

But funniness came from standing out. Cause I had five brothers and sisters. So I had to be funny and loud and interesting. And watch me. And watch me. Because then you were seen. You're an only child and you didn't feel the love for your parents. So to be seen, you had to become loud and funny and funny.

[Ruby Wax]

Not to them, but to other people. So they'd save me. So I made friends. So I made more and more friends. It was like a human igloo to keep them at bay.

[Jamie Lang]

But then, Ruby, being funny is a curse.

[Ruby Wax]

A curse and a blessing. I make a career out of it. But, I mean, underneath it, I get to be honest, which I think at a certain age, you better be. Otherwise, you're just a joke machine. And those people really suffer.

[Jamie Lang]

I wanna get into that as well. But just quickly, on the parents thing, we have a. There's a natural sort of, you know, natural thing for our wanting our parents to love us. So how do you then accept that your parents, you think, didn't love you? Cause that's.

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, they love me. They were crazy about me.

[Jamie Lang]

Oh, or you didn't love them. Sorry.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, they were obsessed, you know, like you are as a parent. But I think they were disappointed. I wasn't beautiful. I wasn't Smart. I wasn't gonna be anything. I can see, you know, it's like I could see why Trump thought I was an idiot. You know, if you treat somebody like a fool, you become a fool. I didn't make a lot of sense around them, and I think that because they thought I was not educated, I became uneducated.

[Jamie Lang]

But you were educated and you were smart and you are funny and you are beautiful. So you had all, oh, look at.

[Ruby Wax]

Him, and he gave me a bagel.

[Jamie Lang]

But it's true, Ruby, you are. And I. That sort of negative feedback within you, that's what drives that sort of. I don't know, maybe like they're sort of not worthy enough, I suppose. But you are and clearly were all those things.

[Ruby Wax]

No, I wasn't. I was really stupid.

[Jamie Lang]

But you studied at Oxford and you.

[Ruby Wax]

No, only recently.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, but it doesn't matter. Recently. And you got. You did psychology and you went to the Royal Shakespeare Company, and you did all the.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, but much later in life. It doesn't matter. In the scheme of things, I did really well. But you know when it counts, when you're a young kid and you're trying to find your identity, and that's really, you know, where the brain develops as a young kid, you get your personality and who you are. You know that. And it's early childhood that determines your personality. Or, you know, it's a driving force. Later on, it's just metals, and it's great. But it's very hard to change the brain. Even though I know about neuroplasticity, I know about it, and I wouldn't be sitting here if I didn't train my brain.

[Jamie Lang]

I heard that. I spoke to someone, has studied sort of early childhood, and she says your brain grows from the ages of. Grows from the age of 1 to 4 or something like that. I'm gonna get this wrong. It grows a third. From 4 to 28, it grows another third, and then the next time it grows a third is when you have children.

[Ruby Wax]

No, that's completely when you come out. Well, she doesn't know, but, you know, when the baby comes out, it's a trillion neurons a second or it's a billion. The baby is developing really quickly, and then there's. Yeah, there's a growth spurt in adolescence. Sorry, when you're a toddler. But the frontal bit of the brain really comes into fruition when you're in your 20s. That's why you can't really. That's why they're wild and they have no Braking system. But I wouldn't say a third. A third, A third. And it doesn't grow. It just means more neural connections, you know, more synapses grow. It's like a tree. And the smarter you are and the more experience you have, there's more connections. If you don't have an experience and the parents ignore you and they don't rock you or look at you in the eye, the frontal part doesn't even start growing. And by nine months you're dead. You need to be rocked. You need to be loved by somebody. I mean, they found all these babies in churchesco, you know, in orphanages. And they were rocking themselves back and forth. It's a hole in their brain. It's just a hole in the frontal cortex. If they're not dead, then good luck for avoiding criminality. So it's not a third. A third.

[Jamie Lang]

That is fascinating. I saw this video the day where it talked about how playing peek a boo with a child is so important.

[Ruby Wax]

Because they're so alarmed. And when you scare a kid, it's a half laugh, half scream. But it's so exciting. And the neurons are trying to figure it out. You know, if you give novelty to somebody, it really grows. That's why old people shouldn't do the same old, same old, because they deteriorate. But if they change their environment, they change where they sit, they change their food, they change their habits. There isn't natural disintegration.

[Jamie Lang]

Wow. That's why learning a new language or learning an instrument is really important.

[Ruby Wax]

It's really important. Yeah. Up until, you know, or. Or just try different things. Try different things all the time. That's what makes them grow. And if you don't, it's like a plant that you didn't water.

[Jamie Lang]

You had no blueprint how to be a parent really. You sort of did in a way.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, I married somebody who did. Yeah. I married, I always say, for length. Cause he was a great mother. And I literally picked him out the way you do, you know, when you're breeding animals, I think, what do my genes need? And genetics, by the way, doesn't naturally pass. It's just. It's a better. You got a better shot at a normal kid.

[Jamie Lang]

Cause you've got three kids.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. None of them have a mental illness.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Ruby Wax]

They're anxious because in this environment, hey, who isn't? But they haven't got depression. Well, a little bit, but not the full severe thing. And you'd notice it by now, you know, by their third by. You'd notice It. It gets younger and younger when you notice it. It used to be people, it showed up in their 60s of, you know, many decades ago, and then it kind of died. So you couldn't see if it was episodic. But now I think, I can't figure it out. But every 10 years, it gets younger and younger. And now it's early, early life.

[Jamie Lang]

There's a moment. You described that when your kids left, when you had empty nest, you cry. You said you cried on the floor, on all fours, like a cow, like an animal.

[Ruby Wax]

I howled. I howled. Now they're all back. I'm still howling.

[Jamie Lang]

So talk to me. Did you? Why? Because you. When they left, you felt this way.

[Ruby Wax]

It's primal again, you know, it's primal. But I really got on with mine. There's a real bond. This is a real thing, you know, I did the right. I always say I didn't pass the baton of madness. This might be the first generation in 10,000 years that didn't get it.

[Jamie Lang]

Are you thankful for that?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, I thank Ed all the time. I don't like him, but I thank him. No, I like him.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, I know you do. And you've been married for what, 35 years?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Wow.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, I know.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay, so you said you first experienced depression when you were around 10 years old?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, but we didn't know what it was.

[Jamie Lang]

So what were you feeling at the time?

[Ruby Wax]

No, maybe like 15. You feel like you're stoned. You know, you're awake, but you're asleep. It feels probably like hibernation. So they thought it was a physical disease. And I got all kinds of blood tests, like, was it glandular fever? Was it Epstein Barr? And they couldn't find an answer. I was literally depleted of blood. And then only when I was 31, did somebody say this is depression.

[Jamie Lang]

Hang on a second.

[Ruby Wax]

They didn't have a name for it then.

[Jamie Lang]

So you're 15 years old and what do you feel? You're just feeling empty.

[Ruby Wax]

You can't imagine. I mean, that's why people commit suicide. Not cause they have a knee infection. It's dead. You're dead but alive. That's why it's so serious. You can't move your limbs and you can't get to the other side of the room. That's just too daunting. If you don't have it, it's impossible. It's like saying, this is what AIDS feels like. And I can use as many words as I can, but you'll never understand.

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[Jamie Lang]

I went through, I have been through severe anxiety, right? And with anxiety you get that low mood feeling. And I.

[Ruby Wax]

But it's not. Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And I said to my therapist, I said, I think I'm depressed. I said, I'm depressed. And. And she said, you're not depressed.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And I said, I'm depressed. I. I'm feeling low mood. I. I feel this, I feel that. She said, okay, I'm gonna send you to a psychiatric ward and show you what depressed people look like. And then you'll be, wanna get out of there in two minutes. You're not depressed.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. And I said, I wish everybody understood what you just said.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. And she said to me, and I said, well, can you describe what it is? Because I'm describing what I'm feeling. And I was panicking. I was like, no, because I was, I would. It's all with anxiety, you're so fearful of things. I was fearful of so many different things. I was like, well, I'm fearful. I'm gonna get this. And she said, the only way I can describe depression is nothingness. You just. It's. It's nothingness. It's. It's. It's nothingness.

[Ruby Wax]

It's nothingness. You've left the planet. You're gone.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, Ruby, I'm so scared.

[Ruby Wax]

Except there's high. High, high something. Fear.

[Jamie Lang]

You define depression as the black hole of disease. Where you sit helpless as your mind hammers your accusations. Your thoughts attack like little demons biting chunks out of your brain. It's hard to stay alive and listen.

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, that's really clever.

[Jamie Lang]

That is very clever.

[Ruby Wax]

Could you send me that?

[Jamie Lang]

I could send you that.

[Ruby Wax]

Send me back my quote.

[Jamie Lang]

I could, but can you? I guess I'm fascinated. In this space, is that really what it feels like?

[Ruby Wax]

There's no feeling, so how can I say feeling? There's nothing. She's right. You're in space.

[Jamie Lang]

So then how do you drag yourself out of that?

[Ruby Wax]

It leaves it. Finally. It's an episodic disease. It's not like bipolar, where you've got a high or a low or schizophrenia. You don't get over schizophrenia, but depression comes and goes. That's why people think you're making it up. Because they think you thought your way into this, think your way out. But your thoughts are sick, so you can't think your way out.

[Jamie Lang]

How do you deal with it?

[Ruby Wax]

You don't. You end up in a mental ward. You don't deal with it. The real thing, poor people that can't get in a mental ward. But there are National Health mental wards that I visited. But now the problem is there's not enough beds. But you can't function. You can't go to work. That's anxiety. You cannot go to work. There's nobody left.

[Jamie Lang]

So, Ruby, did you ever think about taking your own life?

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, I talked about this yesterday with a guy from Suicide Prevention Alliance. When you're that sick, you don't care if you get hit by a car. I was saying you don't think about picking up a razor. But you walk really slowly when you cross the street. Cause it hurts too much.

[Jamie Lang]

Oh, my God. So do you count your lucky stars that you're here today then?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, but I don't remember being sick. I have to read my own books. Cause it's so. You know, it's like girls, when they have their. You know, when they have their period, they don't remember the next time they want to go to McDonald's and strangle everybody. And they go, oh, yeah, that was last month. So you don't remember the last depression.

[Jamie Lang]

So when you were 31 and you found out that this is depression, was that like a eureka moment?

[Ruby Wax]

Eureka, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Wow.

[Ruby Wax]

Then, you know, there's medication and they can start experimenting.

[Jamie Lang]

So talk me through that moment.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, I was happy. Cause they had. As a. You know, when you have a label, it's liberating. So then medication starts. And some medication works for a while, but if it worked, you wouldn't have relapses. But I haven't had depression for 12 years. And then I had the big one when I wrote, I'm not as well as I thought I was. And there's a reason for that. It wasn't because it caught. Cause I meditate so I can tell when it's coming. But I'd gotten off medication six months before I ended up in an institution because I thought I was gonna do psilocybin. And they say you have to get off your medication. So I did. That's how I ended up in a mental ward.

[Jamie Lang]

So talk me through that moment. Cause you were traveling the world, weren't you?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, I was, you know, living in a Christian monastery. I migrated with humpbacks. I tried to get people out of Afghanistan, and I did. And I went on a 30 day silent retreat. So that's what the show in the book is about. Somebody who's looking for meaning. But then I end up in a mental ward. So the journey goes in as to how did I end up here and what's wrong with me. And the journey goes out and everybody's looking for meaning. Everybody wants to know there's a eureka moment where you go, yeah, that's what I have to. That's how I have to live my life. So it was something that appeals to all people. Well, unless you're happy in your chicken farm watching Netflix. And there's a lot of those, but they shouldn't read my book. And then I got ill. So a lot of people go, oh, let's go on that journey. Inward, inward. What happened? I get a great EMDR therapist, which is trauma.

[Jamie Lang]

So can you explain to everyone who doesn't know what EMR is?

[Ruby Wax]

Emdr, Eye movement desensitization, reprocessing. They waive either a pendulum or their fingers. Left, right across your face.

[Jamie Lang]

I. How to. Vibrating instruments.

[Ruby Wax]

All right. It's left, right. They say it connects your brains because when you're traumatized, the right brain is still in shock, but the Left brain isn't functioning because you haven't got words for it, which is your verbal side. So by connecting them with the right left, but the cord is out. It doesn't make any sense. I mean, a lot of people, you don't know why it works, but it is the therapy du jour for trauma.

[Jamie Lang]

So I started doing this therapy because I went to a therapist and said, you got trauma? And I said, I don't have trauma.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, trauma's the word.

[Jamie Lang]

And I said, I have trauma. I haven't, you know, I'm fine. Like they said, okay, well let's give it a go. So I was holding these two instruments, they're vibrating. And I spoke about this a little bit before, anyway, going, they go right.

[Ruby Wax]

Left, right, left in my hand.

[Jamie Lang]

And you talk about the certain scenarios and different things. And I could someday, I think I'll probably go deep into it, but there was this moment which was almost.

[Ruby Wax]

But if you haven't got trauma, why go deep?

[Jamie Lang]

Because I probably do have a bit of trauma.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, well, you know, it's like how much do you have to clean out the vent?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, for a little bit, I think. But I think. But there was this moment when I was doing this therapy which was this crazy, which was so visual I cannot even explain. She said, tell me about to a place where you felt very lonely. And I went, okay, well I felt very lonely when I was sitting at the top of the stairs and my brother, who I loved, was sitting downstairs and he had played the violin in the kitchen. And I was always known as a naughty kid because I was all ADHD all over the place. And I used to sit at the top of the stairs and hear my brother playing this instrument and I'd be scared to go to bed and said, go to that place. And I went, okay, fine, I'll go to the place. It became so real. I saw myself at the top of the stairs. I picked myself up as a little boy, took myself to the room, put myself into bed and I could feel this warmth of like happiness and no loneliness anymore come across me, like physically.

[Ruby Wax]

See, but that's self regulation if you know how to do that. I wouldn't say there's trauma. It would be if you're on the stairs and you lose yourself and you're gone. I'd say there's also. It's not trauma, it's childhood. You know, I think you feel certain things you can't regulate, your hormones are all over the place, you're lonely, you want the parents attention. But I don't think it's like agenetically passed. You know, you just might have the not have the depression gene. If you don't have it, you could fall out of a building and you won't be traumatized.

[Jamie Lang]

Ruby, with all the things that happened to you growing up and everything that was going on. Your career that you created is spiteful.

[Ruby Wax]

It's done out of spite.

[Jamie Lang]

It's not spite. It's amazing. You created wonderful television doing stand up and you still do your stand up and still write your books.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, it's not stand up. Yeah, it's a show. It's got a narrative, it's got a plot, it goes from one story to an end. I think standup is much more chunky and it really is love me, love me. I think in this show it's so dark and so light that it doesn't matter if nobody laughs. I mean, I'd be upset, but it's still a show.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, but when you first started your career and you, you did television, I.

[Ruby Wax]

Never did stand up.

[Jamie Lang]

But you saw Joan Rivers and thought, oh, I can be funny and be.

[Ruby Wax]

No, I never could do stand up. She's a stand up.

[Jamie Lang]

I thought you were just. You linked comedy with different things.

[Ruby Wax]

No, it was always Alan Rickman who said, do a show, do a narrative, show me the script. And now we work with a director, me and you and you tell the story. Do not be desperate. Tell the story.

[Jamie Lang]

So what do you tell me about the show? What do you want the audience to come out with when they watch it?

[Ruby Wax]

I do the first half and then there's a interval and then the second half it's question and answer. So if I take my clothes off mentally, then they're really free. So sometimes even with 900 people or whatever, somebody in the stalls will say something and somebody in the balcony would say, me too. And then I have them meet after the show. So it's like, wow, it's connecting. Yeah, it's Tinder for psychological damage.

[Jamie Lang]

But going back to the start of your career, you did shows for, I think it was 30 years making shows. And what is amazing is some of your interviews and some of your shows got about 14 million viewers. I mean, it was the most popular thing.

[Ruby Wax]

14, 141 4. Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Crazy amounts. And you were working, working, working. And then you talk about the fact that suddenly your career just went doom. Stopped.

[Ruby Wax]

It did, but they wanted me to do reality shows and I wouldn't do it.

[Jamie Lang]

You should have.

[Ruby Wax]

No, I couldn't. I can't. Because my Guts won't go there. I wish I could. I can't. I can't do those shows. I can't. I don't know why, and I don't really need to know. But I had such a great career and I'm so smart. See, I'm not that insecure.

[Jamie Lang]

But there's a moment which I find fascinating.

[Ruby Wax]

I didn't need it. You know what I mean? If you already get that kind of thing, you don't need it. And then they ask you to go and just shoot the shit instead of really structuring, you know, a great show. Cause I edit my own shows. Then it's. It's. I wish I could do it. I wish I could do dancing on whatever.

[Jamie Lang]

But there was a point, right, which is. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, which is where you became frustrated, or you. You disliked the world of television because you were so popular. And then there's a very famous quote which used to say, when you used to get into taxis and people would ask you, why aren't you on television?

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, yeah, they still do.

[Jamie Lang]

And what do you say?

[Ruby Wax]

Sometimes I say, because I'm really ill. Sometimes I say, because I work in America. Sometimes I say, well, I don't see you too much either. I find it really insulting. Yeah, I mean, I was a great canoeist. I'm not that anymore either. When I was eight, you know, I mean, so what's the point? You wear a lot of things anyway. I wanted my dignity, so I went to Oxford. That's how I can end my days. I went to Oxford. That's my greatest accomplishment. Out of nowhere.

[Jamie Lang]

That's your greatest accomplishment? Why?

[Ruby Wax]

Because I wasn't smart. And then I ended up smart. Not in all areas, just in that one.

[Jamie Lang]

I just. Do you not feel you had dignity on tv? I mean, you were.

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, it was a different thing. I don't know if a comedian gets dignity. That's not a word that's really used. But.

[Jamie Lang]

But explain that more to me.

[Ruby Wax]

Give that more, I think, to go to Oxford. My other classmates weren't impressed that I was on tv. I think you're popular and you're loved and you've made people laugh, which is no easy feat. But it's not. People don't go, wow, from being so stupid. So stupid.

[Jamie Lang]

But why do you need that validation?

[Ruby Wax]

I didn't. I just thought of how interesting I could have been so smart when I was young. Oh, wow. Yeah, I could have been a player.

[Jamie Lang]

That is so interesting. The world of Television. And now, especially with social media, it's really hard, like, to. I find social media relentless because I've now got into a place, which I never was before, where I'm comparing myself to other people.

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, yeah. That's why I send myself Instagram to somebody. I don't even know how to get.

[Jamie Lang]

On Instagram because I never used to do that. And someone told me once was a really interesting thing. They said, you know, so we should have a village mentality. Right. Which is where we know 200 people.

[Ruby Wax]

Exactly.

[Jamie Lang]

That's all we should know.

[Ruby Wax]

We know our tribe.

[Jamie Lang]

We know our tribe. And out of our tribe, we have a unique selling point which is make us ourselves. So we're either the best actor or best dancer or best at making clothes or lifting weights. Whatever it is, within our tribe, we have our little space. And now because of social media, you're.

[Ruby Wax]

Competing with the world. And that is if somebody has millions of viewers. I don't want to know. I don't want to know.

[Jamie Lang]

And you talk about, you know, not.

[Ruby Wax]

Because I really believe it, but because we all have envy, and I don't want to stoke mine.

[Jamie Lang]

Do you think we all have it?

[Ruby Wax]

Not as bad as I do.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay, well, talk to me about that.

[Ruby Wax]

No, no. You know, I've explained myself, so I'm envious of people that are more, I don't know, loved or more paid attention to. And this is very. From very young. So I don't like to stoke it. I don't really believe it, but I don't want to stoke it.

[Jamie Lang]

It's beautiful.

[Ruby Wax]

It's like, I don't watch a lot of news. I kind of am aware now it's because it's salacious now. I want to see the bodies. We're human. There's a moment where you need the information, and there's a moment where you're overindulging. I think it's knowing yourself. I think that's my next book.

[Jamie Lang]

That is so true.

[Ruby Wax]

What do you need? You know?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. And that's beautiful the way it's beautiful that you outwardly admit that, because lots of us don't. We don't want to admit it. Oh, it doesn't matter. Whatever. We're not this, we're not that. We all have that.

[Ruby Wax]

You can't do everything.

[Jamie Lang]

Can't do everything.

[Ruby Wax]

No.

[Jamie Lang]

And what is amazing is that you beautifully talk about the fact when Louis Theroux came onto the scene and you couldn't stand it in certain ways because he was sort of doing similar things that you had done and, you know.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. When you don't want to be eaten by the next shark. Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

In the chain of.

[Jamie Lang]

But what was so amazing is the way that you described it, which I loved, is you said, it's not about him. It's my own psychological issues that I have to deal with that were affecting.

[Ruby Wax]

That. Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And that's amazing that you can see that. I think for me, which I had to go through in this sort of battle, is like. Like. Oh, jealous of them or irritated or envious of them. No, no. That's my own issues. It's not them that are doing it. It's my own issues.

[Ruby Wax]

Your judgment is your enemy. That's my next book. I think it's called Get Wise.

[Jamie Lang]

What do you think you're gonna write about in it?

[Ruby Wax]

What we're talking about?

[Jamie Lang]

Well, how do you. What's the conclusion?

[Ruby Wax]

The conclusion is what wisdom is. You know, I'm working on it. I haven't got there yet. I'll let you know.

[Jamie Lang]

Ruby, I. I mean, listen, you've done so many amazing things. We could go on and on and on, and I just. I really want anyone who has listened to this to go and get your book. I'm not as well as I thought I was.

[Ruby Wax]

Thank you.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

Thank you.

[Jamie Lang]

And go and see your show as well and everything. I just think. Yeah. It's amazing what you've achieved and what you've done.

[Ruby Wax]

He's so nice, isn't he?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. But it's true, Ruby. And honestly, like I said at the beginning, for me, I always want to know what I'm getting out of, like, an interview. Right. I sort of think about what the listeners are gonna get, but for me, it's about. I'm obsessed with people. That's how I learn. I never really learned through books or reading things or I learned a little bit through lists, but I learned through listening to people. That's how I learn.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. That's the best way, isn't it?

[Jamie Lang]

Totally.

[Ruby Wax]

Right. It sticks.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah. It's amazing.

[Ruby Wax]

It doesn't stick in a book for me.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay. Right. We got eight questions, short answers that we like to finish with. Are you ready for this?

[Ruby Wax]

Yep.

[Jamie Lang]

What's a saying or phrase that always makes you smile or cheers you up?

[Ruby Wax]

That cheers me up? Ooh. Nothing cheers me up. No phrase. Give me a few phrases. I know. I thought about this, but I couldn't.

[Jamie Lang]

I love you. Happy birthday.

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, no. Happy birthday. I'll think about suicide. Happy New Year. Really? Does any happy? Because don't Push that on me.

[Jamie Lang]

What about anything your kids say?

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, my kids are proud of me. And so that's a golden moment.

[Jamie Lang]

Wow.

[Ruby Wax]

When they say, I saw your show and you really acted. They don't usually say that, but sometimes they say, oh, you were an actress.

[Jamie Lang]

You are an actress.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, no, not always. When it's bad show. When I'm good, I'm good.

[Jamie Lang]

Best compliment anyone's ever given you. Maybe that.

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, maybe saying I'm good looking like you did. Maybe you are, because I don't buy it, but. Okay, thanks.

[Jamie Lang]

You should buy it.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, thanks.

[Jamie Lang]

You should 100% buy it. What scares you most about yourself?

[Ruby Wax]

My doubt. You know, my self doubt.

[Jamie Lang]

It's a killer.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, it's a killer. You can't pick up a computer. You can't do anything.

[Jamie Lang]

That's annoying. When was the last time you cried and why?

[Ruby Wax]

I don't cry because I'm on lamotrigine and you can't cry. But when my cat dies. Cause he's 19, I'll cry.

[Jamie Lang]

You will.

[Ruby Wax]

It'll break through the lamatrigine. Yeah, but I don't remember crying. I try to squeeze it out, but it doesn't work.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay, what's something you can't let go of?

[Ruby Wax]

Well, what we were talking about. I can't let go of that. I wasn't smart. I can't let go of. It wasn't that hot when I did. And I can't let go of. I'm so stupid in most areas.

[Jamie Lang]

But you're proud of yourself, right?

[Ruby Wax]

Sometimes. But you don't think of yourself. You think, come on, Ruby, write that next book. Then I'll be proud.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, but at some point you have to look at. I think somewhat you have to look and go, look what I. There's always better. There's always more. There's always more.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. And at some point, and there's always, like, the reminder of what you haven't done. We have a proclivity to negativity. But I have to remember that's human. That's why I studied therapy and mindfulness, is that this is the human condition, not my condition.

[Jamie Lang]

Totally. There's a great quote in Meet Joe Black, the movie where Auntie Hopkins gets up and says, I'm happy because I'm content. I wake up every morning and realize I don't need any more.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, that's it.

[Jamie Lang]

That's what we want.

[Ruby Wax]

End of story.

[Jamie Lang]

End of story.

[Ruby Wax]

End of story.

[Jamie Lang]

End of the closed chapter.

[Ruby Wax]

Right.

[Jamie Lang]

What's your guilty pleasure?

[Ruby Wax]

My guilty Pleasure is martinis and ice cream.

[Jamie Lang]

At one point. Could we do martinis and ice cream together?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, we could.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay. I'd love that.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay. I'm gonna get your number.

[Ruby Wax]

Okay.

[Jamie Lang]

What turns you off?

[Ruby Wax]

Stupidity.

[Jamie Lang]

What turns you on?

[Ruby Wax]

Intelligence.

[Jamie Lang]

What do you like most about yourself?

[Ruby Wax]

That I can be funny.

[Jamie Lang]

Favorite swear word?

[Ruby Wax]

Cunt.

[Jamie Lang]

Ruby Wax. Thank you so much.

[Ruby Wax]

Thank you.

[Unknown]

Loved, loved, loved.

[Jamie Lang]

When you're sitting there listening to it or just now, before you go, are you knowing where the edit's going to go? Do you like? I can feel it.

[Unknown]

There's some bits. There's some bits where I'm like, I'll probably take that out. But then sometimes it turns a corner and I'm like, God, I'm going to have to keep that bit in because that bit was really interesting. That bit really landed.

[Jamie Lang]

Really?

[Unknown]

Yeah. But there's a few bits also. There's sometimes when you'll ask a question and it like, maybe the answer is a bit short and I'm like, no, that's an easy cut.

[Jamie Lang]

Oh, that goes.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

She was amazing.

[Unknown]

She was so great. So many great stories and so open and like, and wild.

[Jamie Lang]

I know. I loved it. Hey, Ruby, thank you so much for coming on the show. And also, guys, if you haven't subscribed to the show, please do. And also you can get in touch. We have an email which is greatcompany amputproductions.co.uk or we have an Instagram account, Great Company podcast. Go and check them out, Send us any comments, anything at all. And also what Ruby's books.

[Unknown]

We'll leave a link in the bio.

[Jamie Lang]

Leave the link in the show description so you can go and check those out as well. So please go and do that. And as always, we're going to see you next week for another episode of Great company.

[Jemima]

To make switching to the new Boost Mobile risk free, we're offering a 30 day money back guarantee.

[Ryan Reynolds]

So why wouldn't you switch from Verizon or T Mobile?

[Jemima]

Because you have nothing to lose. Boost Mobile is offering a 30 day money back guarantee.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No, I asked why wouldn't you switch from Verizon or T Mobile?

[Jamie Lang]

Wouldn't.

[Jemima]

Because you love wasting money as a way to punish yourself because your mother never showed you enough love as a child.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Whoa, easy there.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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