RUNNA FOUNDER, BEN PARKER ON BUILDING ONE OF WORLD'S BIGGEST FITNESS APPS IN JUST 4 YEARS

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: Great Company with Jamie Laing

Episode: RUNNA FOUNDER, BEN PARKER ON BUILDING ONE OF WORLD'S BIGGEST FITNESS APPS IN JUST 4 YEARS
Date: October 7, 2025
Host: Jamie Laing
Guest: Ben Parker, Co-Founder of Runna

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Overview of the Episode

This episode features a deep-dive conversation with Ben Parker, the founder of Runna, a fitness app that has rapidly scaled to over half a million daily users within four years. The discussion covers the origins of Runna, navigating sacrifices and setbacks as a founder, the importance of resilience, team culture, personal motivations, and the complexities of parent-child pride. Throughout, Ben and Jamie share personal stories and actionable insights for aspiring entrepreneurs and anyone interested in self-improvement, business, or the intersection of tech and wellbeing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Runna Origin Story and Ben’s Background

[06:16 – 08:00]

• Ben describes himself as “just an ordinary bloke who’s completely out of control, but I love running, love triathlon, love doing hard things.” After burning out on one-on-one coaching, Ben’s client (Dom, later co-founder) suggested automating training plans.
• Runna was built to deliver personalized, algorithmically-generated training plans at a fraction of the cost of personal coaching, democratizing access to high-quality run coaching.
• In just four and a half years, the business grew from 40 clients to over 500,000 users, three global offices, and 130 staff, culminating in a successful sale to Strava.
• Ben shares: “If it was any harder to build Runner, it would be impossible. And [we] just kept doing it, turning up every single day.” – Ben Parker ([04:24])

2. Missed Opportunities and Reflections on Success

[08:00 – 12:01]

• Jamie recounts their first meeting and his regret at not investing in Runna. A shared VC contact compared missing out on Runna to missing out on Revolut.
• Ben reflects that the most fulfilling outcome isn’t just making money for VCs or himself but transforming the lives of users and staff, referencing investors whose lives have been changed by their involvement.
• “It's not like we've sold some expensive tobacco that's fucked people up. While we've all profited, it's been the case that we've worked genuinely so hard and at the same time we've built something that really helps people.” – Ben Parker ([15:41])

3. Founders’ Sacrifices & The Cost of Ambition

[16:13 – 19:04]

• Ben describes sacrificing personal health, relationships, and training passion for the demands of entrepreneurship: “My greatest passion, running, has had to go sideways, if not backwards. And that’s been really sad.”
• Jamie and Ben agree building something remarkable means sacrificing one or more life ‘buckets’ (health, career, relationships).
• “You must sacrifice…but the key to being happy is almost to take stock every now and again. Work out what’s gone out of balance and bring it back in line.” – Ben Parker ([19:04])

4. Co-Founders, Loneliness, and Team Dynamics

[19:50 – 21:08]

• The importance of not going it alone: “I cannot believe that it’s as low as 72%. The fact that any businesses succeed where the founder's done it on their own is mind blowing.” – Ben Parker ([20:01])
• Ben and Jamie both talk about "trauma bonding" with co-founders and the role of deep partnership in survival and success.

5. The Joy – and Necessity – of Endurance, Pain, and Growth

[21:08 – 25:30]

• Ben’s personality thrives on challenge and discomfort: “I don’t like being bored…When things are easy, they’re actually quite boring. There’s a difference between fun and happiness.”
• Fulfillment, he argues, is a product of doing hard things, not just seeking fun.
• Both discuss the deep motivation behind founders’ drive: insecurity, desire for validation, and the need for continual growth.

6. Money, Motivation, and Measuring Success

[25:28 – 29:55]

• Upon sale of Runna, Ben explains that money, while a motivator, was never the primary driver—impact and product quality are.
• “I hope the team at the office can’t tell a difference in me in the way I work…I know that Runna is a good business, but we are 20% of the way to what the app can do.”
• Inspiration: Do what you love and be motivated by helping people, not just earning.

7. Family, Upbringing, and Parental Pride

[29:55 – 47:30]

• Ben grew up in an affluent environment, with parents who valued traditional financial achievement, but he always admired his (happier) tennis coach over his father’s career path.
• His parents’ initial skepticism over his fitness ambitions led to temporary estrangement, but eventual success brought the family closer again.
• Jamie and Ben riff on issues of parental pride, the search for validation, and how success is measured—or not—by parents.
• “Why do we have to achieve things in order for our parents to be proud of us?” – Jamie Laing ([42:12])
• Ben: “The thing that actually matters more than anything is that you’re a nice person…that’s what matters in the world.” ([47:07])

8. Building Team Culture at Scale

[47:30 – 51:52]

• Ben credits much of Runna’s success to team happiness, clear communication, and a flat hierarchy, learning from his co-founder Dom’s example.
• Practical rituals: personalized Lego figurines for each new hire, team-wide "Bring Sally Up" fitness challenges, and genuine personal check-ins foster culture and engagement.
• “It sounds silly…but hearing from so many of my friends that work in these big boring corporate businesses…it’s like, 'Hi, have you read the email yet?' That's not how humans should work together.” – Ben Parker ([49:13])

9. Advice for Entrepreneurs: Grit, Growth, and When to Quit

[52:45 – 56:39]

• Ben acknowledges that sometimes, yes, founders should pivot or stop. But if the business is moving, even slowly, in a positive direction, endurance and grit are key.
• He recalls pitching to 50 VCs before finally securing needed investment, emphasizing: “With a business that's a growth business…while it's growing really slowly, that's painful. But if you zoom out and go from looking at week to week to year to year, that growth continues.” ([52:45])
• On product-market fit: Get strangers to pay for your product and refer friends, before scaling.

10. What’s Next?

[56:39 – 57:50]

• Even post-acquisition, Ben remains committed to expanding Runna’s capabilities: adapting around user needs, integrating with menstrual cycles and sleep data; putting Runna “in the hands of more people.”
• Personally, Ben is striving for better work/self/friendship balance, but not stepping back: “Life would be boring if I just reduced my buckets and made it all really easy. I’m going to work just as hard.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Resilience and Persistence:
  “If it was any harder to build Runner, it would be impossible. And he just kept doing it, turning up every single day.” – Jamie Laing ([04:24])
• On Team Ownership:
  “All of our runners, employees get equity in the business because we don’t want it to feel like an us and them. We want all of us to be incentivised the exact same way…so in a scenario like this where it all works out really nicely, we all win together.” – Ben Parker ([13:47])
• Personal Sacrifice:
  “My greatest passion, running, had to go sideways, if not backwards…my life has been pretty crazy.” – Ben Parker ([16:18])
• Payoff and Fulfillment:
  “The money arrived in bank account, I was like, this is brilliant…then turned up to the office the same next day.” – Ben Parker ([25:36])
• Parental Recognition:
  “I looked up to my tennis coach infinitely more than my dad and his friends because he was happier…My parents wanted me to go down the route of being in finance.” – Ben Parker ([29:56])
• Culture in Action:
  “Everyone in the office does [the Bring Sally Up Challenge]…You are going to see your manager as a normal person who’s doing some calf raises in the morning, doing some squats...That cost of the meeting is astronomical, but I have no doubt it leads to us making Runner better.” – Ben Parker ([50:45])
• Advice for Founders:
  “On the assumption that you're moving in a positive direction, even if it's slowly, but you are on a good trajectory, and it's really hard: all you need to do is keep, keep going.” – Ben Parker ([52:45])
• Life Philosophy:
  “Don’t be boring. We're gonna die soon.” – Ben Parker ([60:12])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Runna's Origin & Ben’s Backstory: [06:16 – 08:00]
• Jamie’s Missed Investment & Reflections: [08:00 – 12:01]
• Personal Sacrifices of Founders: [16:13 – 19:04]
• Co-Founder Dynamics: [19:50 – 21:08]
• Growth, Pain, & Fulfillment: [21:08 – 25:30]
• Family, Upbringing, and Motivation: [29:55 – 47:30]
• Team Culture – Rituals & Lego People: [47:30 – 51:52]
• Advice for Struggling Founders: [52:45 – 56:39]
• Eight Quick-Fire Questions: [60:09 – 62:33]

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Tone & Takeaway

Throughout the episode, Jamie brings humor and warmth, peppering the conversation with self-deprecating anecdotes and keen questions. Ben is candid, energetic, and honest, weaving together actionable business wisdom with reflections on personal growth, relationships, and resilience. The episode is both inspiring and grounded—ideal for aspiring entrepreneurs, seasoned businesspeople, or anyone working towards a personal goal.

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Closing Advice

Ben’s core advice for listeners starting (or struggling with) a business:

1. Build on solid foundations.
2. Validate your idea with unbiased outsiders.
3. Endure, pivot, or quit based on your product’s true potential—don’t waste your time.
4. Remember: Life is short. Don’t be boring.

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“Start with good foundations, work relentlessly, and don’t be boring—we’re all gonna die soon.”
– Ben Parker ([60:12])

Transcript

[Maya]

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[Ben Parker]

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[Jamie Laing]

Hello everyone. My name is Jamie Laing and this is Great Company. Hello everyone. Welcome back to Great Company.

[Ben Parker]

Hi party people.

[Jamie Laing]

Hi party people. That is my producer, producer of the show Jemima. And this is me, Jamie, your host. And welcome back guys. If you're new to the show, welcome. If you're an og, hello. Also welcome. Also welcome. Not welcome anymore. Not welcome anymore. This is Great Company podcast where we talk to amazing different people about their journeys, their lives, and we kind of learn from them as we go along. And today, God, the takeaways. The takeaways are amazing. And today's episode, we're going to learn so much because it's with Ben Parker. Now, Ben Parker may not ring any bells with you. You may not know who Ben Parker is, but Ben Parker is founder of a business, a brand called Runner, which a lot of people will have heard of. Which a lot of people would have heard of. Runner is a app that you download and will train you to run any length that you want, from a 5k to a half marathon to a marathon, to even ultra marathons. And Ben is the co founder behind it. I would also say this is an episode with an entrepreneur. Entrepreneur. Hard word to say. And sometimes the business episodes are things which I always think, okay, we'll do the business episode because you yourself an entrepreneur and it's interesting. But I always come away from a business episode feeling like really, like g'd up just because it is really inspiring to listen to someone who's just built something off the ground.

[Maya]

So I just say, like, if you're interested in business or not, it's definitely.

[Jamie Laing]

Well, like, it's a really interesting listen. It's a really interesting listen. And Jamal, you're so right. And also what I love about this episode is Ben says at one point, which you'll hear where he said if it was any harder to build Runner, it would be impossible. And he just kept doing it, turning up every single day. And the funny thing about Runner is it's a running app. Jemima, what's funny about. Because who would have thought creating a running app would then be one of the biggest things that people use in order to sort of feel healthy and train and everything. And what we learned today is amazing things. Firstly, about resilience, about business, about the highs and lows of it, but also following your dream, following your gut. It's just the most important thing because Ben went through the same thing that so many people go through. Hey, I'm gonna go and set up a running app. And people go, okay, good luck with that. And look where he is now. And it's about really trusting your gut. And if you want to do something, go and do it. And 50% of success is just turning up. The getting started is the hardest part. And it's amazing what we learned today, isn't it?

[Maya]

Absolutely.

[Jamie Laing]

So get ready for the show. If I could ask you one thing, that is if you could please subscribe to Great Company. It takes one second. It's completely free if you like the content. If you don't like the content, do you still subscribe? Well, you don't have to, but I would love you to subscribe if you can. Okay. You ready for this?

[Ben Parker]

I'm ready.

[Jamie Laing]

Enjoy this episode of Great Company with Ben Parker.

[Ben Parker]

Hi, I'm Ben Parker, and I'm in Great Company.

[Jamie Laing]

Can you explain who you are and what runner is?

[Ben Parker]

Absolutely. So I'm just a ordinary bloke who's completely out of control. But I love running, love triathlon, love doing hard things, graduated uni, became a normal running coach, and helped some super cool people, like one of your friends, Joshua Patterson, do some amazing challenges. And I got to the point where I had not enough time to be able to help any more people. So I'd help 40 online clients train for their running goals. And one of my online clients, Dom, who worked in tech, suggested automating that. So we basically built a machine that would write the training that any runner needs in an automated way. And by doing it using a computer service, it means that it doesn't take up human time and it can be infinitely cheaper. So basically, we've been able to build a fully automated way to train any runner for any running goal, but in a way that is immediately more accessible for anyone. And so with that in mind, we charge 10 times less than what I used to charge as a private client or private coach. And we've gone from me having 40 clients to now having over half a million people who will open that app every day and then they will go and whether they're training for their first 5k faster 10k marathon or crazy ultramarathons. And the funny thing Is that like they all need the same thing, they all need optimal training, they need it to be fun and they also need it to be really easy to use. And with that in mind, we've been on this kind of four and a half year roller coaster journey from building this kind of funny, silly thing in our evenings that we launched the Internet and thought it would go nowhere, to now being in a place that we've got three offices, 130 staff around the world. We've also just sold the business to Strava.

[Jamie Laing]

Oh my God, so much to unpack there. So let's get into Runner. Right? Runner is probably going to be one of the biggest regrets of my life, if we're honest. So my story with you, right, I met you once, you may remember this because as you said, you were a fan of my podcast, but I remember meeting you for the first time. It was a place called Blue Earth Summit and it was in Bristol. And you came up to me and you said, I have this running app called Runner. It's really good, it's a running thing and I would love to chat to you about it. And I ignored you. I didn't ignore you. I said, oh my God, so nice to meet you. But I didn't think about it. You were another young entrepreneur with an idea and full of dreams coming up to me. And then slowly by slowly, what happened? I kept seeing Runner pop up around the place doing different things. I thought, okay, this is interesting. And you and I had a conversation about investment and I didn't invest and I invested in a friend of mine's business instead because I thought it had more chance of being successful, even though your business, Runner, was doing quite well. And then lo and behold, I reckon last year, towards the beginning of last year, I spoke to someone who is an old friend of mine who works in VC and she's incredibly good and she has now gone and set up her own VC fund. She's amazing. And I said, why have you left your old VC firm that was doing so well and doing so incredible? And she said, well, there are a couple of investments that I wanted to put a big ticket into. And when I say ticket, that's a big investment into. And I wanted to lead on the round and my boss didn't allow me to do it. And I said, well, what were those two investments? She said, one was Revolut. They missed out on Revolut. And the other one is Runner. And I went, Runner? She said, yeah, you know, it's. Did you invest? And I went No, I didn't invest. She went, ah, you're going to regret that one. And I went, what do you mean? She said to me, and this is like, I don't know if you can talk about this or say this, but I'm going to say what she said to me. She said to me that she thinks Runner is going to be sold for around 250, 300 million pounds and that's 10% of the valuation we're just going to go to as a. As a vc. She said that. And I suddenly realized that my investment that I could have invested into Rona would have been quite substantial. What's your response?

[Ben Parker]

Well, I mean, I was delighted to ever get to meet one of my idols. And it sounds silly, but, like, I learned so much that has translated into the way that we build a brand and to the way that I treat people day to day and in the business. From listening to your podcast. That's very kind.

[Jamie Laing]

Thanks, man.

[Ben Parker]

So I was delighted the day that I got to. I think you.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you remember that day?

[Ben Parker]

Yeah, you were speaking. You and your partner Ed, were speaking about Candy Kittens and kind of some of your journey. And then I went on to speak later about doing how we're trying to raise some money or something probably much less interesting and much less eloquent. And then there was a number of times we'd kind of reconnect for whatever reason, and I'd be like, oh, do you want to invest? And I knew you were always, like, very close to it. And I think also I also understand that you have your finger in 100 pies. You are so busy on the TV, on the radio, running all your different businesses that, like, I didn't ever take it as you didn't believe in the business. I took it as like, you just don't have the capacity to. And I think that was the biggest reason. But it was always the case that it's like, Jamie's being an idiot. Jamie's missing out on this one. And like, also, in reality, one of the strands that has meant or led to our business being so successful is we've worked with amazing creators, but. And so that's people in the public eye sharing their journey with Runner, and inherently, therefore, someone like yourself investing in Runner is doubly beneficial, and hence why it was frustrating for us for you not to invest, because the money's a tiny fraction of what we could have had by supporting you with your running training, and that would have added back to the investment.

[Jamie Laing]

So you built Runner over the Past four and a half, five years, yeah. You have over a half a million people subscribe to it who wake up every single morning, go onto the app and use it. Over half a million. It's a tech business.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

It costs £100 a year to subscribe to Runner, so 10, just under eight pound eight a month or whatever it is. What did Runner sell for to start Strava?

[Ben Parker]

It's not public information, but yeah, a lot of Money. Can I. ChatGPT actually comes out with quite close to the answer.

[Jamie Laing]

So ChatGPT said to me that it was 250 million.

[Ben Parker]

Interesting. For context, I didn't own the entirety of Rudder and there's a lot of tax to pay. With reference to the money, I think we made some VCs and some big investors a lot of money. And as individuals I've made a lot of money. But the thing that actually means something is that when we go back to that crowdfund. So we had 303 different investors, some of which putting in 10 pounds, some of which putting a thousand and some of which putting in. The biggest one was £50,000. One of the investors was one of my private PT clients. She was called Nidhi, she still is called Nidhi. And she was going through a really messy divorce, but she had chosen on her birthday to prioritize herself and started training with me. And she trained for her first marathon and it was probably, without trying to like hype it up too much, the. The best thing in her life at that time. Through this really miserable time, she went through the process of having to divide their lives and they didn't have enough money to June find two separate places to live. So the husband would rent somewhere and he would stay in the family house to be with the kids on the every second weekend or whatever it would be. I don't know the details. And then carry on renting separately. She got a bit of cash and she put a disproportionate amount of her wealth into the business and she's now getting. And so since that day, for the last three years, she's worked two jobs as an orthodontist, working six days a week, June struggling to bring out these three children. And now she's going to leave one of those two jobs and she's able to qualify as a Jaeger instructor and do that as a kind of a side hustle. And like, that is the reality of, like, what this leads to. It leads to cash for some VCs and they get a great return. Like genuinely, who cares? And then at the same time, another interesting example and for context, all of our run our employees get equity in the business because we don't want it to feel like an us and them, we want all of us to be incentivized in the exact same way, to be loving our customers, feeling like we're all doing it for the same reason. And then also in a scenario like this where it all works out really nicely, we all win together. And so some of our earliest employees and doing one to give context, Katie, she, she was a PE teacher. I met her at a run club and at the time we were working on the Run Buddy, this website and she worked 10 hours a week in her summer holidays and then went back to school and handed her notice. And at the end of the Christmas term she joined us full time. And so she got a bit of equity with her starting in Runner and that equity has obviously grown enormously through the business's journey. And she'll get a. Well, she has got a life changing amount of money that will allow her to completely change where she lives or buy a new car and all of these things. And that's alongside a healthy salary and everything else. And so it's the people that we got to touch in a really positive way has been great. And that means infinitely more than any number that we can write in an article and get some kudos for. And all the while we've done that while positively touching the lives of our customers. And it's not like we've sold some expensive tobacco that's like fucked people up. While we've all profited, it's been the case that like we've worked genuinely so hard and at the same time we've been able to build something that really helps people and as a result it's then therefore valuable to the industry.

[Jamie Laing]

What personal sacrifices have you had to make for Runner to be a success?

[Ben Parker]

Well, I'm not as fast a runner as I was when we started Runner, which sounds crazy now that I run well, that I run a running business. But I used to work 30 to 40 hours a week outside, happy, healthy every day with very little stress. Now I probably work, I don't count, but I don't know, 50 to 80 hours a week. And as a result I don't run as much as I would like to do and I don't sleep as much as I'd like. I don't eat as well because I don't have as much time to cook and do all of those things. So my greatest passion which is my running has had to go sideways, if not backwards. And that's been really sad. But so those are some of the sacrifices. And then I think attached to that, my life has been pretty crazy. My ex girlfriend, we were together for kind of six, seven years and I think Runner just kept getting more and more crazy. And it also was this thing that I was so committed and devoted to meant that I was probably a bad boyfriend and led to problems there and that ended.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you think it's worth the sacrifice?

[Ben Parker]

Yes, I think I'm very grateful to get to do what I do now, to have the life that I have now and to have the impact with our runners that we have. And also, I think, like, I'm not a professional athlete. If I've jin never going to be as fast as they would have otherwise been if I'd lived a different last five years, that that's fine because I've got to do something even better. And also I think when it comes to a ex girlfriend or any of those personal sacrifices, I think those. June. There's lessons to be had. June. I'm probably developing more as a person from reflecting on situations, from all the feedback that I get left, right and center at work. And I think that will lead to me being a better partner in the future one day.

[Jamie Laing]

And I think a lot of people forget the sacrifice that have to be made. When you're building something, it doesn't matter if that's in sports or business or whatever it is. You have to sacrifice so much. In your opinion, do you think it's impossible to grow something as big as you did with Runner without the sacrifices you made?

[Ben Parker]

I think it goes back to things needing to be a bit hard. I think life would be really boring if I was winning in all three of my buckets. If I was winning in my fitness, work was just plain sailing. And I'm just like happy as Larry with all my friends and girlfriend. I'd probably be like, life would be too easy. I'd probably go and fuck something up on purpose. And I think it's the same for you. I have no doubt that, like you don't have everything nailed no ways. It's impossible. And I think, like, possible.

[Jamie Laing]

But it's normally personal. That goes. Goes, yeah, because that's the last thing you think about, whether that's health or relationships or whatever that is. And that becomes tricky.

[Ben Parker]

But so as a result, I think you must sacrifice. But I think the key to then being happy is almost to like take stock every now and again. Work out what's gone a bit out of balance and bring it back in line. And if we spend 20 years where we let us put too many eggs in one of those buckets, you'll get to. Or I'll get to 50 and realize that I've nailed career. I've done loads of Ironmans and I'm a single lonely old man with too much money and like that would be a huge mistake. And instead I think it's really important every so often to be like, I've actually just gone backwards with my fitness. New year, new me, I'm dialing it down. Or I've gone back with my fitness and new goals for this year. I'm going to try and finish work a bit earlier or I'm going to make sure I don't start before 9. I do this exercise in the morning.

[Jamie Laing]

Just quickly on your co founder, Dom, something like, statistically, 72% of businesses have a co founder. Be incredibly lonely to be running a business solo.

[Ben Parker]

I cannot believe that it's as low as 72%. The fact that any businesses succeed where the founder's done it on their own is mind blowing.

[Jamie Laing]

Mind blowing.

[Ben Parker]

Do you like how hard like doing when you've had hard times at Candykins or any of your businesses to not have someone, just someone who like. The way I, I think about it is Dom and I were good friends before we started but now we're best friends and I describe that as we, I always say trauma bonding. We've been like abused for years but we've been abused together so we kind of understand each other.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. And do you know what's so beautiful about that? I love my business partner. I love him.

[Ben Parker]

I love Dom and it's strange because he's this annoying ginger man that I can't get rid of but he is genius and he's so kind and he's taught me to be a better person and I could not have done it without him.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you think you enjoy pain?

[Ben Parker]

I did a psych race yesterday and I have a very sore bottom since and I would rewind time and do it again.

[Jamie Laing]

The reason I asked this right is because Ironman's constantly pushing yourself, constantly making yourself better, constantly driving. You spoke about how tough runner was. The pain of growing and developing and pushing and pushing and pushing is a lot, especially when it comes to sports and performance. And there must be something that you love about it.

[Ben Parker]

I think I don't like being bored and I think just like we said, explain that.

[Jamie Laing]

What do you mean?

[Ben Parker]

I Think. I think in general, life is just so short. We're gonna die so soon, so we need to just, like, do stuff that, like, I'm nearly 30. I'll die at 80 or 90. That's, like, June 40% of the way through my life. So I need to get on with it. But I think attached to that as well. I think, like, when things are easy, they're actually quite boring. And I think there's a difference between fun and happiness. It's fun to play PlayStation. It would be fun to, like, lounge around all day and watch some telly, but you finish that activity and you're not any happier. You sometimes almost, like, regret having wasted that time. But what makes you happy is doing something that's hard but, like, is productive. And that's probably why I enjoy chasing to be better at stuff. Because if you finish a task and it, like, adds to the next day or the next week or you're on a positive journey, I think that leads to fulfillment and happiness. Whereas fun doesn't lead to any fulfillment. Kind of like scrolling on TikTok. It's fun sometimes, but you finish it and you're no happier for it. Whereas if you do something that lets you be better, you're happier. And I think something that gets you better at something or that anything that leads to fulfilment is often hard. Like, it's easier to have fun than to do something that leads to the fulfilment. But fulfilment is what leads to happiness. And I think understanding that then helps you do the hard stuff. Like, it is hard to go to the gym consistently to build a healthy body. It is hard to go out running three, four times a week and do a marathon. And it's hard to not stop the whole way through the marathon. Do your best time, but when you finish that marathon, when you finish your challenge, like, that feeling is impossible to give it.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Ben Parker]

And it is better than any time sitting on the toilet, scrolling on TikTok or any other game you can play, whatever it is, because so much hardship has gone into it, and at every moment, you wanted to stop, and because you didn't, it's fulfilling at the end. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

But okay, so because then. Then you go into this. Right. Which is my argument. It's like, I always get asked the question, what am I driving towards? Why am I driving? Why am I building the businesses that I'm doing? Why do I constantly wake up every day and think, I got to keep going? I got to keep going? And the more I think about it is probably. I'm lacking something I'm definitely, probably lacking. I was a real people person. I really. I probably lacked. I feared abandonment. I worry things are going to go the whole time. I really want people to, especially my parents, to admire what I've done. And that's the kind of thing that keeps driving me forward. So it probably comes from an insecurity. Does yours come from an insecurity or just a willingness to get better?

[Ben Parker]

I don't know. Like, I don't think I've been analyzed or analyzed myself enough to know the answer. And to some extent, I don't think it matters. And in reality, it's also impossible to know because it will be a combination of all of those things, June. It will be an element of insecurity, an element of some trauma and some invalidation you had as a kid and external validation you have on you now and internal validation that you have. And it's all of those things. And I think in reality, it's like what you've done to date so many amazing things has led to you feeling good. But you know that you can do each of those amazing things a bit better. Like, you can probably entertain and educate more people via all of the different media streams you're on. Like, it's led to happiness today, but you'll probably get even more happiness into the future. And also the fact that it's led to you being happy today. I hope you're happy today, but the fact that it's led you to being happy today is exactly why you shouldn't stop. Because if you are happy today, it'd be really silly to be like, okay, I'm really happy now. Dad thinks I'm great. And then to be like, so now I'll stop doing the podcast or I'll stop running this sweet business that, like, makes people happy. And in the same way, doing Dom and I are now in this weird situation where we've received a big chunk of money for selling our business. And so the rationale to work to earn money is smaller because we don't need that much more money.

[Jamie Laing]

So you're not driven by money?

[Ben Parker]

Well, I always thought that the reason why I was prepared to throw away my perfect life as I. So I came back from the hotel in Greece, set up my Ben Parker fitness business, coaching people in Richmond Park. Nice, sunny park in southwest London. Well, sunny half the time, and did my online coaching. I'm 24, 25, earning really good money and probably working 30, 40 hours a week. Nice, exercising healthy, outside, outside really flexible hours, lovely life. Yeah. Why would you ever throw that away? Crazy. And the two reasons why I did was one of which was because I could see it on a path to being able to do a lot more, like helping a lot more than 40 people. And the other reason was that it may well lead to financial freedom, which is something that everyone would love. And to some extent that's now what we've got. But it doesn't change how I want to spend my time. Like, I literally, the money arrived in bank account, I was like, this is brilliant. This is kind of funny. Didn't know that's what bank accounts could do. And then turned up the office same next day. And like, I would hope that the team at the office can't tell a difference in me in the way I work. Like, I know that Runner is a good business, but we are 20% of the way to what the app can do. And I want the app to be that 100%. And in reality, just like all goals in life, the goalposts move as we get closer to 100%, we'll need it to get to 200%.

[Jamie Laing]

So again, it goes back to my point, which is like earning money is a byproduct of what you do.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah. And I want to be better at everything I do. And I also want to help people. And I think that's inherently why I enjoyed being a personal trainer, is because I got to see people who, I got to see their bodies transform. But more than seeing their bodies transform over a journey, in the gym or in the park, running, I'd also see their lives getting better and them being happier. Like, part of being a personal trainer is being a therapist for someone, seeing them each week, hearing about their ugly divorce, hearing about their annoying children, whatever it's going to be, but like being a light in their week. And while I don't get to see that day to day with our customers because they're all online using our app, I know there's a bunch of people that have a happier day because of this silly little business that we've built. And also building that silly little business is quite fun.

[Maya]

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[Jamie Laing]

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[Ben Parker]

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[Jamie Laing]

What have you got to lose? Head to bluehost.com to start now. Foreign what were you, what were you charging as a running coach to begin with? Per session?

[Ben Parker]

So I would do two things. I would charge for like in person, one on one sessions. So I'd go running with you and I'd work on your form. I might bring my kettlebells and go and doing strength, doing work on your strength or run next to you and support you through intervals. So I'd typically charge like 60 pounds an hour for a one off session and then I'd also charge £20 per week for someone's online training plan. So you'd be whatsapping me, telling me how you're getting on and I'd be then sending you your, your training and I'd also do it if you saw me in person that week, you got your online plan for free. So I'd have 40 online clients and then I'd see normally about 10 to 15 people in person that week. And that was basically what I called Ben Parker Fitness. And the funny thing is I set off on that journey to be a normal running coach because I'm very lucky. I grew up in a, in a very privileged environment. My dad was very successful in business.

[Jamie Laing]

What did your dad do?

[Ben Parker]

So he ran a investment management business and he was lucky enough to retire at 49, lived in kind of wealthy area of southwest London and him and a lot of his friends were all kind of in this similar environment that they're doing high powered jobs, earning a lot of money. But I looked up to my local tennis coach infinitely more than I did him and his friends because he was happier. My tennis coach was happier. He was outside doing everything, doing, doing something, helping people outside, moving his body. And he still had enough money to drive a car, go on holiday, have a wife and kids. So I like very much Knew that that was the life I wanted to emulate. More than having more money than you need, having a bigger house than you need, and having spare money because you're retiring at 49, because you don't love what you're doing well, because you saw your dad.

[Jamie Laing]

Wasn't. Was your dad happy?

[Ben Parker]

I think my dad was happy, but I think my dad was probably happy because of everything that comes alongside that career. But I don't think he lived for that job, which is probably why as soon as he could, he stopped. Whereas to some extent, maybe a tennis coach can't stop at 49 because most tennis coaches will need to keep working for longer. But I wanted to copy that life. And so I, first of all, I went to university and did an ordinary boring degree because my parents very much pushed me in that direction.

[Jamie Laing]

What was your degree?

[Ben Parker]

So I did geography degree.

[Jamie Laing]

Whereabouts?

[Ben Parker]

At Southampton, which is where I met my co founder, Dom. So it was amazing. But at Southampton I did no geography, ran the lacrosse club and very much focused on just like moving my body, exercising. And I knew that I was going to be on a path to work in the fitness industry against my parents wishes. They wanted me to go down the route of being in finance. It was actually very funny. I came home in the Christmas holidays of my first year, so in December of my first first year. And I kind of was so excited because I finally like worked out what I wanted to do with my life. I knew I was obsessed with fitness. I had been for like three or four years. And at the dinner table, I'm one of four, so big dinner table. And I was like, I know what I'm gonna do with my life. And everyone was kind of silent and I was like, I'm gonna be a personal trainer. And my mum's reaction was like, everyone was silent. And like my siblings were probably all ready to see the reaction from my parents. And my mum's reaction was like, that's fine, will cut your allowance. You get used to being poor. Which was just like ridiculous in a way because I think obviously things have transpired to the case that I've been financially successful despite doing what I loved. And I don't also think she spoke of it from a place of being evil. But I think it was very much the case that from her lived experience, both my parents went to Oxford, they both went down the route of financial careers, so and that's led them to having a comfortable, safe, stable life. So from her lived experience, that's the right advice, but probably, as you know, Doing something that you love probably leads to you doing it very well. And I have no doubt that if I was working in finance, I would find it so boring. I wouldn't come up with good ideas, I wouldn't be able to, whatever, that I would be living for my life outside of work.

[Jamie Laing]

It's interesting, there's a great quote which I live by, which is business is paid in two currencies, cash and experience. Take the experience first, the cash come later. Do something because you love it, right? Don't do it because you want to earn money. Because if you just want to earn, earn money, you'll be unhappy probably in the end. You want to experience and do it and love it and enjoy it. And there's a big thing, right, which is you're, you're in a, I would say, unique situation because having having grown up in a household which was affluent, which feels like you had, you know, all the opportunities that it gives you, right? Good schools, holidays, probably a car allowance, whatever it is, right. And normally, typically what happens in those situations that you sort of want to continue that and you want to, you know, be able to do those things that you've done as you're a kid, but you kind of just wanted to be happy in your work life and that didn't matter what you were doing, you realized that you wanted to become a trainer and follow down that road. And also, which I think is interesting, how old are you when you realize you want to be a personal trainer? 21.

[Ben Parker]

So I was 18 in my first year of uni.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, so 18 years old. I think I can go and ask most 18 year olds right now and they would have no clue what they wanted to do. And we're so forced into this space where it's like, what do you want to do? But actually one of the biggest things I think is life is finding out what you don't want to do.

[Ben Parker]

But I think it wasn't the case that I wanted to be a personal trainer for the rest of my life. I wanted to work in fitness and that meant that I needed to start as a personal trainer. I think my dream at the age of 18, when I was obsessed with the gym, was probably to one day run a warehouse gym where I had this big gym. I watched loads of YouTube, all these cool YouTubers setting up their cool warehouse gyms. I thought that was my like path. But I knew the first step was to work in the fitness industry, qualify as a personal trainer. And during thereafter my life pivoted and moved in. So Many different ways. I got a job working in Southampton as a, at a private PT studio and the person who ran that studio was an ex professional runner. So it like started to get me thinking a bit more about running. I would support him by taking out some of his running clients. And I was also a student, enjoyed running myself. And then the next step was that I went and worked for two years running the fitness department at a five star hotel in Greece. And this was also again, a point of privilege, but I'd been to that hotel growing up, so I knew that that kind of lifestyle, that job existed, but it was a way that I could go and enjoy basically living on holiday, but for free. So I had my food, I had my accommodation all paid for, I earned basically nothing. I earned 80 pounds a week, which is basically illegal, but you get paid. And I felt like I was only a million bucks because I had nothing to spend it on because I had my food, I had my accommodation, had a bike, could go running and I could go windsurfing in my free time. And I think like what you said was that you kind of like grew up with these great things, but I was happy to throw them away to go and be a trainer. And I don't think that was the case. I think it was very much the case that I realized that the things that made me happy were cycling, were running, were being outside and doing nice things which aren't unlocked by money. And I think that's also the thing that's now an interesting thing for me to wrap my head around, which is that because we've now just sold the business, there's like, I have enough money to probably go and buy new things if I wanted to, but there's nothing that I want to buy because I already own a nice bicycle. I own a few bicycles, so I have one for my gravel cycling with my road cycling, but I was able to buy that already from the business's success to this point. And, and in reality I own those things from my success as a normal personal trainer before runner. And so as a result, like what do I want now? I want time to be able to do the things I enjoy, of which that is cycling around with my club and pushing myself to get better, running around and getting better, doing marathons. And that all stems for me to culminate with Ironmans and spend weekends exercising with my friends. And also I know that if all I did was that it would actually get quite boring. And so it's really good that like between Monday and Friday and Sometimes between Tuesday and Saturday or whenever it's going to be. I work really hard, but I also do that on something that is very fulfilling. I'm not just trying to bet on the right stock that goes and makes loads of money for some big business. Instead, the impact that we have every day. So one of the things I do inside Runner is work with all of our different engineers to build the algorithms that dictate to what running people go and do. So if we go and make an improvement today, that's going to go and affect the lives of half a million people and many, many millions of people over the years ahead. And there's nothing better that I could do with my time. And then that also means that I don't have as much time. So that when I'm doing those things that I enjoy, the running, the cycling, spending time with my friends or silly things like playing Call of Duty, that's scarce. And as a result you are grateful for them. And probably if you candy kittens for breakfast, lunch and dinner, you'd probably not enjoy it. But if you had candy kittens every now and again, you're like, this is fantastic. And I think that's the same with everything in life.

[Jamie Laing]

That moment that your mum said she's gonna cut you off when you said you want to be a personal trainer, did that change your relationship with your parents?

[Ben Parker]

I think it, amongst other things, like, did mean that my mom and I were like, a lot less close for, like, many years. My parents went on to get divorced and I think due to other factors, like I think me looking like my dad and reminded my mum of my dad all the time, and also being able to share triathlon and running and cycling with my dad that I didn't with my mum and other factors probably led to mum and I having a bit of a more wedge between us. Additionally, when Runner got started, we needed to raise some investment and I think the right way to do things for businesses out there that are getting started is not to raise money immediately from your family because they're biased. And it would have been a huge mistake for Dom and I to have, like, basically spent a year or two years working on this idea just because my mum's biased, loves me loads and gives me some money. So instead we went and got money externally.

[Jamie Laing]

Did you really, you didn't go to your parents?

[Ben Parker]

We thought it would be a stupid idea.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow. I went to my parents and that it was a bad idea for different reasons, but I, I think I went, I, I, that's a really Interesting. That's a really interesting tactic to take when raising money because when you're raising money on a. On people say nothing to do like.

[Ben Parker]

A family and friend. Family and friends round.

[Jamie Laing]

Correct. Yeah.

[Ben Parker]

And what we did was we raised our first bit of money from Joshua Patterson, who was one of my private clients. And I was supporting him to do, doing some of the amazing challenges that he's gone on to do. But like a. He had a lot more value to the business than my mum and my dad could have had. But also he was less biased. Like he didn't just love me because I'm his or her son and as a result he could probably evaluate the decision a bit more objectively. And that's, I think, so important. In the same way, when you Dom had to go and quit his job, I had to go and close down my private coaching business that I'd set up and was going, growing really well. And we should not do that unless we're on for something good. And your parents just want to say yes, want to support you a lot of the time if they can, but the problem is you actually need to have someone who's not biased to objectively evaluate that decision anyway. So we didn't raise money from either my parents in that first round, but then we did go on to raise a crowdfund a year later. So this is what we kind of started to grow the business that much more and we raised half a million pounds from 303 different people and this was basically our earliest customers. But within that round, my dad did go on to put some money in and my mum didn't. And at the same time, lots of my friends then did start to put money in, but they're also our customers. And June, as did probably 290 other people. And so I think that was another interesting one where my, like, I think my mum was still not supporting in that way, where my dad did and I think continued to like, drive a little bit of a disparity between us. And it was really interesting because I think, like, the perspective that a parent has with their child is, I think often they want to be able to like, shout about how great they are. And me being a personal trainer doesn't conform to that, like, narrative.

[Jamie Laing]

For your parents, though?

[Ben Parker]

For my parents or for my mum particularly. But it's now funny because Runner has gone on to succeed and a lot of her friends know about that because they're children are training with Runner or whatever it's going to be and now she's almost able to be like proud of it. And actually my mum and I are much closer again. So we've kind of like solved a little bit of the challenges that we've had to date. But it is interesting whereby I think one of the things that everyone wants to some extent is some external validation. And she wasn't getting. Or she didn't feel like she got that when I was a personal trainer. And now maybe she feels like she gets that because I get to come and talk to cool people like you.

[Jamie Laing]

It's funny, right? I remember when I started doing Made in Chelsea, right, A reality show, and my parents were definitely not proud at all. They were not proud of what I was doing. I was on a show, I wasn't seeming to work. It wasn't the route that they typically wanted me to do. They wanted me the same thing, to go to university, get a job in the city and do something that had some sort of respect around it. And now I would say that they're probably incredibly proud of what I've done. But it was off the back of doing a reality show, right? That was my roots, where I started.

[Ben Parker]

But it's. Cause what you've done is you've taken the success and the fame that that brings you to go and help people in so many ways, set up amazing businesses which are then inherently something to be proud of. But.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, but it's. But what's my. My argument is this, right? I want to riff it out with you. Is. Is with parents. Why. Why do we need to have. Why does some sort of. Some sort of success mean that they can be proud of you? Why do we have something, have to have something tangible? Why do we have to grow a business or be part of a business or do something that is quite big and bold for our parents to be proud? Why can't they just be proud of the person? If you're a kind human, if you're considerate, if you're. If you are willing to spend time with them, shouldn't we be proud of you then? Why do we have to achieve things in order for our parents to be proud of us?

[Ben Parker]

I think there might be an element that our parents are optimizing for or what they're trying to aim for is for us to be able to live a safe, stable life and provide for a future family and maybe by being a personal trainer, which doesn't earn the income that they think you need to grow a family and their crazy world, or during the path of being on Maiden Chelsea, which is risky and not as Established as a more doing established career is dangerous. And so as a result they're nervous for you, which like presents in not being proud. But the thing they're probably proud of or the thing that actually matters more than anything is that you're a nice person. Yeah, but, but it's that that's not measurable. So the thing that's measurable is like your success in a career. And in. During 30 years ago, 50 years ago, success in a career was going down these conventional career paths and climbing the ladder in a very measurable way. And so the fact that like we're both doing careers that are so different to that makes it non measurable or not one that they understand the metrics of to some extent or they can relate to it. So they're nervous for us that we're not going to be able to have this established life. And do you have a security that maybe they've had? And that then presents in them being nervous for us and not being proud. But at the same time, I think everyone is validated by success. So when it comes now back to the case that June, clearly you're a success and probably Runner is clearly a success as well, it's easy for them to be able to say they didn't go down the normal route. So I didn't understand it. But now it's. Yeah. Tangible. So now they can support it again because they know that we can provide and be stable, which is probably the thing they want for their children out in the world.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. But do you know what's interesting, right, if when I was a kid, right, we used to have a chart on the fridge which was every single time that I was good, I would get a gold star. And if I got a certain amount of gold stars in the week, I could go and watch Free Willy the movie. I remember it.

[Ben Parker]

So you must get so bored of watching that over and over again.

[Jamie Laing]

It was a different movie. That was the first one.

[Ben Parker]

And so you never, you never got to watch it because you didn't get any stars.

[Jamie Laing]

Well, I did. I remember I got my gold stars in the week and we got to go to Free Willy. But my brother Alexander, who was always good, never got rewarded for being good because he was always good. And my brother is. Had a really amazing career, done super well, works as an analyst in the city, very high up, has a family, two kids, has his own home, incredibly successful, doesn't get the validation from my parents because he's always done that.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And maybe the same for you perhaps is because you. Because what your parents. You went down a route which your parents thought deemed as probably not the route that they wanted you to go down, but now you sort of made a success of that. Oh, now we're proud of you even more because you've gone against what we thought was going to happen. But actually, shouldn't parents just always be. That's what I'm sort of saying. Right. Like, do you have to do something? Not, you know.

[Ben Parker]

So the interesting thing. So I'm on a four. My younger sister growing up in the exact same environment, and I think she's entirely not motivated by money in any way. I think she probably has this crazy family that she's always observing and evaluating. Went on to do a psychology degree and now works as an assistant psychologist. And she's applying for her doctorate and wants to just help people. And she works in a hospital of people who are recovering from brain trauma. And that's not a career that's going to lead to financial security. That's not true. It's not a career that leads to, like, being extremely financially wealthy because it's a lot more established. She's working within the nhs, etc, but, like, I think she's equally as successful as me, totally. But, like, if you measure it on financial wealth, that's not the case. And I do think my parents are very, very proud of her. But I think that's also because it's a established career, one that they can understand. Like, you've done, you. You're working towards a doctorate, you're on a path that leads to a safe and stable life. Whereas, again, because my parents didn't understand personal training, they've never worked with a personal trainer. They've never. It's not a career that existed 30 years ago. They think you qualify as a personal trainer and then you don't ever go anywhere and you can't ever have children or you can't ever enjoy spending time with your children because you've got to work the whole time. Whereas the path of being a doctor of psychology does lead to established life, because there were doctors of psychology before. But I think my sister's a kind, good person and that's the best thing to be proud of. And irrespective of whether runners are success, whether runners are success or not, whether someone should be proud of me or not is whether I, like, open the door, treat people nicely, because that's what matters in the world.

[Jamie Laing]

What's the magic ingredient to be a great founder? It's the question everyone wants to know as with anything.

[Ben Parker]

I don't think there's one thing I think naturally you need to be, I think, like, really gritty, like really able to keep enduring. You need to be able to deal with a good and a bad scenario every day and you have no idea what's coming. And I think that's probably like universally true across any startup. And I think one of the biggest reasons why ours works well is because people are happy. Our team love coming into work every day. And I think that is because I think I've learned a lot from Dom. But Dom knows how to treat people. He knows how to communicate and he knows how to give feedback. So I learned from him how to do that when we were working as a two. So when we hired our next two employees and Dom had someone support me on the tech and I had someone support me on the brand, I learned how to work with them because Dom had taught me how to work with himself. And that's transpired now that we have 130 people where they're managers in the team who manage eight to 10 people. And they've learned from the way that Dom really taught us how to treat people.

[Jamie Laing]

And I think that explain that to me. Role play with me. What do you mean? I come into the office and I have an issue. Well, how do you treat me?

[Ben Parker]

So when Dom and I started, it was nine o' clock every day. We'd have a call and for the first five or 10 minutes, he'd just want to chat to me about how was my evening, what did I get up to, how am I as a person? And then it'd be like, cool. And then I would also then ask him in return. And then we get into the day and as a result, I cared about him and he cared about me. And then we worked on this common problem. And the same when I hired my first employee, I felt like it was inappropriate, but I'd be like, oh, how was your evening last night? What'd you get up to?

[Jamie Laing]

Oh, cool.

[Ben Parker]

Like, been to the gym this morning. They'd be like, oh, yeah, I did this and walked my dog. And I'd be like, oh, cool, right? Should get into it. And that still happens every day. And it sounds so silly because obviously that's how humans should be. But I think there are, like, hearing from so many of my friends that work in these big boring corporate businesses, it's like, hi, have you read the email yet? Should we get into the actions? It's like, that's not how humans should work together. And As a result, 5 o' clock comes around, 6 o' clock comes around. People want to get away from it. And an example of treating people nicely and also not taking life too seriously is we start every day, so every Monday and every Friday with the same silly thing, which is the Bring Sally up challenge. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's a three minute video on YouTube. You should try it. And it goes, bring Sally up. And you basically do a press up or you stand up with a squat, bring Sally down and you go down and it goes on for three and a half minutes. And sometimes there's a hole at the bottom. And at 9:05 on a Monday and 9:05 on a Friday, everyone in the office does it. We put it on the huge loudspeaker and everyone work from home dials in and does it. And as a result, you are going to see your manager as a normal person who's doing some calf raises in the morning, doing some squats, and you're going to see them having their dog jump up and down on them while they're doing some press ups from home, humanizing everyone. And also, we work for a fitness business, we work for a health business. We don't want everyone to sit at their desk for June 40 hours a week and degrade their health. We want them to be taught to get up and move and everything. And I think, like, that is undeniably an inefficient use of 130 people's time. The cost of that meeting is astronomical, but I have no doubt it leads to us making Runner better.

[Jamie Laing]

And what you're doing is you're building a happy culture.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And culture is everything. It's such a buzzword. And to build that happy culture is so hard. I heard that you buy every employee a Lego person when they join Runner.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah. So when you join Runner, you get your little LEGO person and we will design it to look as close to you as possible. And it's on a little LEGO platform with the Runner logo behind it. And then every year you get a new brick for your one year, your two years, your LEGO person gets higher into the sky. And then whenever you work on a big project, say, for example, we just launched the B races, so you can train for a B race on the way to your marathon. So you could do a 10k training run. And we'll put that into your plan beautifully. You'll get a little bee piece of Lego that you put on and it's a bumblebee that sits on your little LEGO man or LEGO person, if you worked on, I think it was a London winter run 10k partnership, you got a little ice gem and there's so many of these. If you work in the train team, so you work on building the algorithms that determine what people do for their training. You get a little train and then your man or your person drives a train and like, it's just fun and silly and that costs money. And we also have to spend time designing it, buying it, ordering it, whatever, but it probably is love.

[Jamie Laing]

I arrived outside here and I was on a call before I had meetings and you were sitting outside in the sun on your laptop, doing emails before you came in. You're working all the time and sometimes you look at the successes, right, and you forget how you've driven towards it. You look at David Beckham taking the free kick against Greece, right, when he scored that and you're like, God, that's amazing. Usain bolt winning the 100 meters, you're like, oh, my God, runner. Selling for whatever it sold for. You just look at the successes, right? You don't see the graft and the grit and the thing that's gone before it and built towards it. Many people listening now who are starting a business and building a brand, right, are in that process right now about giving up. They can't do it again, they can't keep going. We pinned that moment, right, which is you're constantly at that threshold of giving up and they're going to give up. Person listening now is like, I'm going to give up. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to be a runner. I'm not going to make that happen. I put all my life savings into it. What would you say to that person?

[Ben Parker]

So I think two things, one of which, in some cases, we should go up. If Dom and I had started off on a stupid idea and we couldn't raise any money and we couldn't make the business move in a positive direction, we should stop wasting our time, come up with something else or do something that is moving in a positive direction on the assumption that you have. And if you can't move in a positive direction, you need to move, change something so that you can, if you're moving in a positive direction, even if it is slowly, but you are on a good trajectory and it's really hard. All you need to do is keep, keep going. Because with a business that is a growth business, like any kind of doing, selling more suites or selling more running training plans, we need to sell a little bit more, a little bit more, and we'll grow and we'll. We'll do something great. But while it's growing really slowly, that's painful. But if you zoom out and go from looking at week to week to year to year, that growth continues, and you make it continue. You've got this brilliant business. And so on the assumption that you're moving in a positive direction, you just need to endure and always see if you can speed up that trajectory.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, but let's play devil's advocate a second. What happens if someone listening now is they're not seeing growth and they're plateauing and they're just staying exactly the same. What would you say to that person?

[Ben Parker]

Well, I think then you need to have a path, an idea, an action plan to get to positive direction. And so that might be pivoting the idea slightly. That might be launching a new product that will then make it from going from slightly unprofitable to slightly profitable. A new feature inside their app. And if they can get to a positive direction, then great. You need to endure. If they get to that point where they're doing, they're going to build this new feature. It's going to take three months to get there, then it should see positive uplift. They get to that and it doesn't, is there another play they can do? And how long do you have to keep making these tests? And in reality, that's kind of why investment is a necessary evil, because you only have so much time before you run out of money. So when you're starting to run out of money, you need to go and raise some more money to be able to survive on the assumption that your business needs money, which all businesses do. And so then you need to get to a new point in time where you can test. And if you can't convince an investor or a VC that you get to that point and then it will start to be able to move in a good direction, then it. It won't work. But that's also where the grittiness comes in and the. The gut feeling and the belief, because we came so close to not being able to convince people that our concept would lead to a good business. And there genuinely was a point in time where we nearly had to completely pivot the idea or the weight, not the idea, but the way that we ran the business because no one would invest in us. We'd done the crowdfund and a year had gone by, and we'd grown, we'd launched from the Run Buddy to be the Runner app, we're growing. We've got, let's say 2,000 paying subscribers at the time, but no VC, no big investor, and we needed to raise a bit more money than that kind of half million that we'd raised. Would believe that this was something that would work. And we had probably pitched to 50 of the most relevant VCs in London and they'd all told us, this is a stupid idea, this will never work. This is just super niche, only for die hard runners and as a result we should just give up and do something else. And we nearly had to change our plan, not hire new people and do what we could with the resources we had and kind of extend that point to be able to prove it again and raise some more money later. And eventually we managed to, after about four or five months of pitching, eventually found a VC that believed in us. And that was the hardest point in time for our business. And that's what led to faster growth. That then led to people believing that this is possible and then everyone wanting to invest later on and that vc, by believing us when most people didn't, got a great return.

[Jamie Laing]

This one you said to what makes a good founder? Grit. That's grit. You just keep going, keep going blind into the future without knowing what's going. You just keep having that passion, that desire to keep pushing forward all the time. What's next after selling the company.

[Ben Parker]

So for the company, what we've always set out to do is make the very best running coaching service in the world and as accessible for as many people as possible. And there is so much to do. We want to make your running training plan adapt around the menstrual cycle, adapt around how well you slept last night. There is so much we can do and we are working so hard to do that. And then the other thing we need to do is put it in the hands of more people. And by partnering with Strava, we can help more people. So that's exactly what is next for Runner and for you. I think for me it's the same. I, like, love my three buckets and I probably have the opportunity to find slightly better balance between them. But I also know that life would be boring if I just reduced my buckets and made it all really easy. I'm going to work just as hard because I care for Runner just the same. I'm going to train just as hard and push my body just as hard because that makes me happy. And I'm going to try my very best to be a good friend and good partner. And I'm 29. One day I hope to have kids and have a nice, stable relationship, and that's the goal. And I'm sure, as with anything, it always moves around a little bit. And life's hard.

[Jamie Laing]

If someone's listening right now and I think you're starting a business or they're in the process of building it, what advice would you give them?

[Ben Parker]

I think the most important thing is you start with good foundations. And with that in mind, I think there's a few layers that you should go for before you sprint full steam ahead. First of all, you need your idea. Then you need to validate your idea. You need to show that to your friends. They think it's good. Great. Then you need to get a stranger to think it's a good idea who's not biased. So that might be making some tweets. Your friends say your sweets are great. That's not very helpful because they're biased then. And same with your mum. Then you go and show it to some strangers. If they say, these suites are great, you're doing quite well, but they haven't paid for it. So then you need to get a stranger to pay for this thing. If you can get a stranger to pay for this thing, that's really good. But then you need to go one step further, in my opinion, which is if you can get a stranger to pay for your thing, even if it's a tiny amount of money and it's a really primitive version of your sweets without nice packaging, they need to pay for it. But then they need to say, I want. Like, they need to pass it to a friend and then they need to go and want it. And I think as soon as you can have a thing that a stranger thinks is good, pays for it, and then goes and brings one more stranger into the mix, you've got a concept that if you go and add a brand to it, you go and add a great team, great R and D, whatever that is, in whatever industry I think is going to be a success. And if you can't get to that, you need to keep pivoting, keep tweaking that initial idea before you go running in that direction. Because the last thing you want to do is go and get some money off your dad. Spend three years working on an idea where you're just biased and you haven't been given that, like, signal that what you're doing is going to go in the right direction, because the last thing you want to do is waste Your time. Because the way I view it is we're all going to be old and die soon.

[Jamie Laing]

Ben, that's fantastic advice, man. This has been brilliant in every single way. Like, truly amazing. And I can feel and understand why you've built such an incredible business and you're a great team leader.

[Ben Parker]

Well, it's amazing.

[Jamie Laing]

No, truly, man. It's amazing. We like to end the podcast with eight questions. Are you ready? Quick fire?

[Ben Parker]

Ready.

[Jamie Laing]

What's the saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up?

[Ben Parker]

I think, like I said, don't be boring. We're gonna die soon.

[Jamie Laing]

Best compliment anyone's ever given you.

[Ben Parker]

You're not what I expected. I think I'm bigger than the average runner. I'm probably sillier than the average business person. I think connected to being boring. I don't want to be vanilla of what people expect me to be.

[Jamie Laing]

What scares you most about yourself?

[Ben Parker]

That I am too obsessive and I might blink and I'll be 40 and be in the exact same position that I am now.

[Jamie Laing]

When was the last time you cried and why?

[Ben Parker]

I don't cry a lot. When my family dog died and I cried loads sweet.

[Jamie Laing]

Oh, no. What was it all called?

[Ben Parker]

Dottie. And I desperately would love to have another dog.

[Jamie Laing]

What's something you can't let go of?

[Ben Parker]

I think I can't let go of the hotel I used to work at in Greece. I've been back every year since and I always thought I'd buy the hotel one day. I don't think I'll do that. I think I'll just keep going back on holiday. But I love it. It's my favorite place in the world.

[Jamie Laing]

Oh, that's beautiful. What's your guilty pleasure?

[Ben Parker]

Every time I fill up my car with petrol, I reward myself with a fizzy drink or a chocolate milk and a bag of sweets.

[Jamie Laing]

Every time.

[Ben Parker]

Every time. And sometimes I'm like, oh, my car's halfway through. It'd be kind of handy to have a full tank, really. I like even if it's like 10pm at night, I'm driving home, I'm like, ah, I filled up the car, gotta.

[Jamie Laing]

Do it, Got a treat. I love that tradition. What turns you off?

[Ben Parker]

I don't like people being rude. And I think inherently the other way, I think intelligence and selflessness is just like the most attractive quality in anyone. Agreed.

[Jamie Laing]

What turns you on?

[Ben Parker]

Intelligence and selflessness? No, I think I'm just like, yeah, being kind. Being driven on something is just an amazing quality and ultimately prioritizing Health as well.

[Jamie Laing]

I agree with you. What do you like most about yourself?

[Ben Parker]

That I'm really funny. At least I think I'm funny. And even if other people don't think I'm funny and then laugh that I think I'm funny, that makes me happy.

[Jamie Laing]

Bonus 1. What did runner sell to Strava for?

[Ben Parker]

I'm trying to count the figures to give you an arbitrary number. That is still something that I can probably share. But yeah, we. We sold the business for lots of money.

[Jamie Laing]

You should be very proud. Honestly, you should be very. Ben, thank you so much for this, man. You're incredible guy and I just really appreciate everything. So thank you so much.

[Ben Parker]

Well, no, thank you, Jamie. And thank you for everything because I've learned so much from you.

[Jamie Laing]

Oh, man, you're the best, man. Thanks so much. That was amazing. That was great. Yeah, amazing. I really enjoyed that. I mean, just I. Being a. Being a business owner myself, I just know how hard it is to do something like that. To build something from scratch and build it up and just keep going. Relentless. But so quick. Four years is mad. Like, how long would you say a business would normally take to be selling to something? 10 years. Really? Yeah, I would say 10 year. 10 years. I think it takes to really build a business. Doing it in four years. I mean, not only just building it, but building it to a point where it's selling for that. I mean, he didn't, he didn't say how much money, but I think, I think it's around 250 million. That's what I think. It's a lot of money.

[Ben Parker]

Wow.

[Jamie Laing]

Very, very impressive. It was amazing. Ben, thank you so much for coming on. And now, if you enjoyed the show, please subscribe to us. It takes one second. It's completely for free. And also send us an email if we want to hear what you think about the show. What guests you'd like us to have on next. Greatcompanyampleproductions.co.uk and you can also slide into our DMS@GreatCompany podcast. Okay. And we'll see you next week for another episode of Great Company.

[Maya]

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