Jemima (2:03)

I only just realized the other day it's December.

Jamie Laing (2:05)

Wow, so you're as busy as me as well. So we're just busy together at the moment.

Jemima (2:09)

I know it is December, but the other day I think I had to write the date for something. You know at school when you'd write your date every day? I don't do that every day, so I don't always. Really doesn't hit home.

Jamie Laing (2:20)

Don't get me back into being a child because I absolutely love this.

Jemima (2:23)

You love talking about your inner child?

Jamie Laing (2:24)

I love it. I love it, I love it, I love it. Hey, Merry Christmas to everyone. I think we can say that.

Jemima (2:30)

No, we're still a few weeks off.

Jamie Laing (2:32)

Okay, well, I'm gonna say Merry Christmas. And also, this is the time of year when we get to the end of some big TV shows like I'm a Celebrity, Get Me out of Here, and Strictly Come Dancing. Gonna mention I got to the final of that show. Anyway, so because of the finals coming around the corner, we thought we'd get a person on who is very much part of the amazing furniture of Strictly Come Dancing. She sits on the judging panel of Strictly Come Dancing. It is the one, the only, Shirley Ballas.

Jemima (3:01)

Shirley Ballas. What a wonderful, wonderful woman. I so enjoyed doing all her research. She is fascinating. She's lived a life.

Jamie Laing (3:09)

She's lived a life. She also gets a lot of heat a lot of the time for being her. I believe that people are really harsh on her the whole time. And she has this amazing armor around her that she sort of holds herself to a certain place. And what's amazing about Shirley is that she's an incredible dancer.

Jemima (3:27)

Oh, yeah. I don't think you always appreciate kind of, especially when they're the judges and you're like, oh, yeah, they've won X, Y and Z. When you actually, like, stop to recognize she's the only person who's. Oh, she's only once. With two different partners.

Jamie Laing (3:40)

Yeah, she's won. She's a world champion with two different partners.

Jemima (3:42)

Yeah. Incredible. And, like, she's been dancing since she was 15. Well, professionally dancing. Yeah. Dancing since she was, like, 2.

Shirley Ballas (3:49)

Yeah.

Jamie Laing (3:50)

It's amazing. She's an incredible person with an amazing story, and that is exciting. But also, there has been some controversy around Strictly Come Dancing. It's been the press a lot. I'm gonna try and tease that in there.

Jemima (4:02)

Are you?

Jamie Laing (4:03)

What do you think?

Jemima (4:04)

Well, I've been told expressly not to.

Jamie Laing (4:06)

I'm gonna do it anyway.

Jemima (4:08)

I know you are. Cause you're you.

Jamie Laing (4:10)

I'm gonna ask that question anyway.

Jemima (4:12)

If anyone's listening, please know that I am telling him not to.

Jamie Laing (4:15)

So producer Jemima told me not to, but I'm still gonna ask the question. Because I've gotta ask the question.

Jemima (4:18)

It's who you are, Jamie.

Jamie Laing (4:20)

Exactly. So I'm ready for this. Are you excited for this?

Jemima (4:22)

I'm really, really excited. I also receive kind of lots of negative publicity or negative attention. And they have this armor. There's a story behind that armor.

Jamie Laing (4:33)

Totally. And she is an amazing person. So I'm very excited for this. Remember, if you enjoy this episode, guys, we have loads of other episodes that you can go back to and listen to. We just. Last episode, we have Alex Earl, big American, super digital talent. It's an incredible episode. And.

Shirley Ballas (4:48)

Yeah.

Jamie Laing (4:49)

Do you know what's really exciting about this podcast that we do. Jemima.

Shirley Ballas (4:51)

What?

Jamie Laing (4:52)

My mom loves it.

Jemima (4:54)

Oh, does she?

Jamie Laing (4:55)

She messages me and phones me every week saying she listens to the episode. She's never listened to any of my stuff. And she listens to this and enjoys it. It's very sweet.

Jemima (5:01)

I remember Sophie, actually, your wife, saying, I'm around Jamie all day, so you wouldn't think I want to listen to him on a podcast. But she was like, but I do.

Jamie Laing (5:09)

Yeah, she enjoys it, remember. Also, before we start, you can get in touch via our Instagram Reece Company podcast, or you can send us an email. Greatcompanyjampproductions.co.uk Everything is in the show description, and if you haven't subscribed to the show already, please do. Okay, let's get on with the episode. Please enjoy the episode of Great Company with Shirley Ballas.

Shirley Ballas (5:30)

Hi, I'm Shirley Ballas, and I'm in great company. Obviously.

Jamie Laing (5:39)

I did Strictly Come Dancing. I got to the final.

Shirley Ballas (5:42)

I was there.

Jamie Laing (5:43)

I know you were.

Shirley Ballas (5:43)

And when you broke your ankle or hurt your foot, whatever you did, and they had to pull you out, you.

Jamie Laing (5:47)

Were there as well.

Shirley Ballas (5:48)

I was there as well.

Jamie Laing (5:50)

But what people don't know is that we also hosted an event together once, and we traveled all the way to Birmingham, I think it was. And then we traveled all the way back. Do you remember this? And we chatted.

Shirley Ballas (6:01)

I do.

Jamie Laing (6:02)

The whole way.

Shirley Ballas (6:04)

I do remember.

Jamie Laing (6:05)

And in the car. Because, you know, I know you from Strictly, and I know you from passing in corridors and talking about things. But that was the first time that I would say that we became friends. And I couldn't believe how insanely fascinating your life is.

Shirley Ballas (6:22)

Oh, well, there you go.

Jamie Laing (6:24)

Full of hard times and sad times, but happy times and love. And so today on this podcast, I want to try and capture all of that.

Shirley Ballas (6:34)

Okay.

Jamie Laing (6:35)

In the space of an hour. So good luck. So I think we should start right at the beginning. Where did you grow up?

Shirley Ballas (6:46)

I grew up in a place called Wallasey, which is just across the river from Liverpool, so the north of England, and on a housing estate with a single mom and a brother. And times were very, very tough when we were little. You know, my mother is my. She's my queen. She is the true queen. She lives with me, you know, and I just love her to bits. What an amazing, amazing woman she is.

Jamie Laing (7:12)

How tough was it growing up?

Shirley Ballas (7:14)

Well, I think when you don't have a father influence in your life at the time, you don't realize so much but the other kids used to make fun of you. So you were the two kids that were getting the free school dinners. And the other children would stand at the gate and say, you don't have a dad, you're on welfare. And they'd, you know, really quite mean to us. But I always took things, even my mum said, from a young child, I'd be thinking, oh, I'm getting a free hot lunch here. It was awful for my brother. He struggled with it, you know, he didn't want to go for the free dinners. And I would say the kids were generally a little bit mean. Some of them were nice, but there was always that stigma attached to the fact that you were, you know, with a single mother and no father.

Jamie Laing (7:54)

That's a strange thing for kids to attack.

Shirley Ballas (7:58)

I think kids get what they hear at home, you know, And I think most of them were, came from that unit of having moms and dads and brothers and sisters, as where my mum, she was the one that had to go. She was the breadwinner. Very proud, my mother. And she had so many jobs just so that we could always have the best school uniforms. Clothes were always pressed and she did the best with the means that she had. So I think that, you know, it was just difficult times all round back then, I think.

Jamie Laing (8:26)

What do you think it does? Because growing up without a dad. Your dad left when you were two, right?

Shirley Ballas (8:32)

Yeah.

Jamie Laing (8:33)

What is the difference having such a strong mother but an absent father, what do you think that does to a young girl?

Shirley Ballas (8:38)

I think it was only years later that I used to look at my best friend, Karen. I've got a friend of over 50 years and she had that solid unit. And I used to look at her when the dad would be making a fuss of her, you know, and he'd be with her at all the competitions. And I used to think, what's it like to have somebody that you're their queen, you know, a dad always revolves around their daughters and little girls, is my observation. So I would say it was later on in life that I struggled with it far more than when I was little. Of course, I had my mother there. She taught me work ethic. She had four jobs at one time, I remember, just to make ends meet. You name it, she did it. She wasn't proud. She did whatever she had to do to make it work for the family so that we could eat every week and have nice clean clothes.

Jamie Laing (9:23)

What does that teach you about work ethic?

Shirley Ballas (9:25)

Well, what I've realized through my life, I was one of Those people that I would say had above average talent, but my work ethic was off the chart. So if you worked four hours, I'd be the one working eight. And I think I've never been late for anything in my life. I've never missed a flight, you know, being on time, all these things for my life, making sure my private lessons. I was there on time, making sure I never lost my shoes because I only had one pair. Nothing in life is for free. You know, paying it forward was another thing that I learned from her. So some great lessons from her along the way, you know, Would you say.

Jamie Laing (10:01)

No father has potentially impacted your relationships in your life?

Shirley Ballas (10:06)

I would say my relationships have been a disaster all the way along the line. All the way. But having said that, and this is only from my perspective, I'm still friendly with Nigel Tiffany, who was my first fiance at 16. He's my financial advisor. Today I left, and then I ran off with this guy called Sammy Stopford, and we went right to the top in the dancing. And then I left. And then I went to America and I married Corky 22 years. Then I left, and then I've had a couple of boyfriends, and that all ended in disaster. And then currently, as I've joined, split with my boyfriend six years. So I don't really know, you know, I look back and I never had that example of that family environment, you know, And I. I look at other people, and I love it when I see that there's still the mom and the dad and the kids, and they all get there. But what I am truly grateful is that at 87, I still have my mother, you know, and that she lives with me. And I get these precious moments with her because she's the only thing, the only thing that's been a staple in my life.

Jamie Laing (11:09)

Wow.

Shirley Ballas (11:09)

No friend, no marriage, no nothing. She's been the main staple in my life. And other than that, my son and I have one or two good friends. I have a very small circle of people around me. I'm not the most trusting person at all. And I think that all comes from, you know, the childhood and the ups, the downs, and having to do. I mean, I used to travel from age 10 all over the country on buses and trains while all the other kids, moms and dads took them, you know, and cars and things. No one ever asked me if I needed a ride or can we help you? So it was really fending for yourself from that age. I mean, my dad could have bellied up and he could have Said, oh, I can do this or I can do that. He never did anything, not even bought me a pair of dance shoes. So when he passed away two years ago and his sister said, you know, I think you should fight to get this, this, and this. And I was like, why? He never gave me anything while I was alive. Why would I fight for something when he's passed?

Jamie Laing (12:05)

Wow.

Shirley Ballas (12:06)

Do you know what I mean?

Jamie Laing (12:07)

Yeah.

Shirley Ballas (12:07)

So I think it just makes you a little bit hardened on the inside. I did care for my dad. I mean, you only get one dad. And throughout the years, I did see him occasionally, but nothing that was, like, deep. We never talked about ever how I felt, you know, and he never asked me either.

Jamie Laing (12:22)

So when he died, were you sad?

Shirley Ballas (12:25)

I went to the funeral.

Jamie Laing (12:26)

Okay.

Shirley Ballas (12:27)

And I tried to talk to my mom about it. I had very mixed emotions because I think when somebody's like, I couldn't. I'll get emotional just talking about this. I couldn't imagine losing my mother that to me, I've been with that woman through ups, through downs, through her cancer, through the suicide of my brother, through just everything in my life. Now her I couldn't imagine losing. That will be very traumatic for me. But I felt that, you know, because he'd passed. But like I say, I never had that girl dad relationship, you know, and they told me after he passed, you know, your dad really did love you. Well, it was a shame I didn't hear it from him. You know, maybe in passing he might have said, I love you, but words to me don't mean a lot. Actions mean a lot to me. So. And, you know, anyone listening, family, they always, you know, give it large there. But the thing is, they don't live in my life and they don't live in my shoes, and they never lived that childhood, you know, so.

Jamie Laing (13:26)

So do you think you find it hard to talk about things? Because. How do I explain this? You're so in the public eye, and you're a judge on one of the biggest shows in the uk, and everyone has an opinion, and whatever anyone ever says or talks about, there are always people who hit back with certain things. Oh, you're not right here. There's always criticism. Whatever you do, whatever you say, you, Everyone else. So do you find it hard to be vulnerable and be open in certain situations?

Shirley Ballas (13:57)

When I first got the job on Strictly come dancing in 2017, and my son, who's been in television, as you know, Jamie, pretty much all his life, he watched the first series and he said to me, if you don't drop your walls and the barrier that you have around you. I'm going to get emotional again. He said, you're far too. He said that it's stopping right here and you've got to let those walls down and you've got to share your experiences. And I think also in 2017, I was having such a bad time with pressure. You know, there was another time, I remember that my mum had a friend came in and she had all the pictures of my brother on the wall and they sold those pictures to the press, you know, so 2017 was a very guarded place for me at the time. And just people coming out the woodwork selling stories that weren't true. In 2018, we decided that perhaps it wasn't right for me to take the job back. And again, my son stepped in and he said to my mother, I know you've had a lot of press and everything between the two of you, but maybe you should focus more on your charity work. And that's hence when I thought, okay, I'll spend 40% of my time dedicating it to the Suicide Foundation, Calm Campaign Against Living Miserably, Macmillan for Cancer, Alderhay Children's Hospital, you know, a Centrepoint, all the different charities that I'm involved in. Hence, that's why I took it back in 2018. But I think over the years, I think I've learned to drop a little bit more. And I've never talked really about my father in any interview, really, a little bit. But around the edges, never really that deep feel, feeling that it leaves a girl, a young girl that could have done with a dad there, you know, while I was growing up, actually, even I look back and, you know, my brother, he needed a man in his life. I felt we had a guy that kind of stepped in every now and again, my Auntie Maevis's husband. But he didn't have that father, son, role model. There was no role model there for my brother. And I felt sad for that. Years later, when you look back on your life, you know, I felt, you know, had he have just. Even just stepped up, he was that kind of dad that we'd get ready on a Sunday. He might say, I'm coming to get the kids on a Sunday. My mum would get us all ready in the little council flat. You know, best clothes on, standing by the window, never turned up. Over and over and over again. And then, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, my mum would go to the little corner phone box and let him have it. Cause that's what she does. And he would say, oh, don't worry, I've got. The gifts are in the mail. Never received a gift, never got a Christmas gift, never got a Christmas card or a birthday card or. You know, I can remember. You know, you remember things in your life. I remember one time when he eventually did pick us up and he said his mother was going to cook us this dinner. We turned up at the door, she didn't even know we were coming. So I remember that they had to share out this roast dinner that had probably been made for like three people, that suddenly now you've got an extra four. I never got a roast potato, by the way. I've never forgotten that it was divvied out. And even as a small child, you just got that feeling that you. No one knew you were coming. So it was things like that, and they were very few and far between. He visited me another time in Yorkshire when I moved there when I was 15. Yeah. So it wasn't the greatest of relationships, shall we say? Let me rephrase that. He'll always be my dad, but it wasn't a deep relationship that we could share things with, you know, Shelley.

Jamie Laing (17:20)

So funny what as kids, what we remember. You do when you were. As a. My point is, as children, when you're promised something, you think it's real. And especially from your parents.

Shirley Ballas (17:30)

Well, as I've grown older now, there's several things I don't do. So lessons in life. You can play the victim and you can say, well, I'm like that because of this, or you can look at the situation and think, I will never be like that. So I've never been like that. So if I make a promise to the best of my ability, I will carry it through. If I see somebody needs help, I will be the person that there to try my best to help. And I never had that attitude with my own son or, you know, anybody I helped raise along the way. So the lesson I learned from him is that's not the person I ever want to be.

Jamie Laing (18:03)

Have you ever done therapy?

Shirley Ballas (18:04)

17 years of it.

Jamie Laing (18:06)

Yeah, congratulations. I did as well. It's amazing, therapy. It's amazing, isn't it?

Shirley Ballas (18:09)

Because you can sit and talk. The man used to put his feet up. Doctor stole his name was. He used to put his feet up on the. On the couch and go, gosh, like Coronation street there. Shirley. Give us. Give us this week's saga. Every week I had a saga. So, yeah, I loved him.

Jamie Laing (18:22)

The. The reason why I said is that I remember a Therapist once said to me, which is. And again, I sort of don't generalize things, but they said, oh, when you. When you have your father's love, you know, you can be loved yourself. And sometimes without that, it makes you not love yourself because you can't feel the love. And so perhaps that happens in life as well.

Shirley Ballas (18:44)

Yeah. People say, you know, do you love yourself? Are you happy? And I just say, what's happy?

Jamie Laing (18:49)

Oh, sure.

Shirley Ballas (18:50)

Because happy is different things to different people, you know, so. And I've been studying that because that's my expression that I've used pretty much all my life, you know, because I'm constantly moving. I'm on the moving. So I don't know whether it's. Are you running away from something? You know, you're not comfortable within your own skin, so to speak. Trying to learn about that, even at 64. Analyzing my feelings from the past. But, yeah, what is happy to you?

Jamie Laing (19:15)

What is happy to you?

Shirley Ballas (19:16)

What I've learned happy for me now is I've got this little grandson, and I enjoy my FaceTime call every day with my son. I've got one of those children. I'm blessed to all the families out there that my son calls me the majority of the time every day. And I have that relationship with him. And I like being with my mother when she's cooking in the evening. And everything else for me is just moving along the bus and keeping moving.

Jamie Laing (19:41)

It's funny how we do that in life, right? I think I definitely was sort of victim to that, where I just filled my life, my time, with being distracted, because then sitting in the silence with ourselves was almost too uncomfortable. Because then thoughts and feelings and everything come and say, oh, I don't want to really feel this. So I'm just going to distract myself and keep busy. And then you don't have to think about what's going on.

Shirley Ballas (20:01)

Well, you and I are exactly the same. Because if I get time off, which is very rare because I keep myself busy, I will be the one that sits there, and I will go back all over the past who did what, said what, what happened to my brother, my guilt feelings from that, you know, my f. Just different things throughout my life. Could I have made this marriage work? Should I have stayed here? Should I have done Shoulda, shoulda, shoulda, shoulda, shoulda. You know, all I keep saying at the end of the day, when I've rounded all that up, is the way my life moved. I'm blessed to have had my son. And without the journey, I Took. I wouldn't have him and then I wouldn't have my grandson.

Jamie Laing (20:37)

That's exactly it. You wouldn't.

Shirley Ballas (20:38)

So it's fate if you want to. It's directions that you choose. You know, I was just talking to my ex husband the other day and he made some sarcastic crack, which he does on a daily basis. And he's got a beautiful son who's an opera singer, Samuel. And I said to him, you know, had we have stayed together, you wouldn't have Samuel and I wouldn't have Mark. So, you know, we both agree on that. Even though there was a lot of pain with us splitting up, you know, so that was my first husband, by the way, just in case you get confused, I've had a few, we need.

Jamie Laing (21:08)

To get into them. When was the first time you danced?

Shirley Ballas (21:17)

The first time I danced was two years old. And ballet. My mother put me in ballet and tap and I just always. She said even though I couldn't do anything, I wanted to be the star. And then at 7 years old, I was doing resuscitation on a dummy for the Girl Guides in a church hall in Liso and I could hear this music playing in the room next door. So I kind of moseyed over as a seven year old does, so drawn by the music. And there was this big brown door with a piece of glass circle hole in. I pull myself up and I could see everybody moving. And I knocked on the door and I said to the man, what's going on? He said, well, this is the waltz. And then he said, sit down. And he put a cha cha on. The waltz was Moon river and the cha cha was wheels. And he said, and we've got children's classes starting on Saturday. So I was like, wow, you know, I'm here for this, but this has happened. So I rushed home and told me mom. I told her about this lovely music I'd heard. She said, oh, I'm not sure about putting you in a venture. She really didn't have any money. How much is it? I said, the class is 15p. She said, would you require shoes? I said, no, no, no, no, no shoes. Nothing required. It turned out to be one of the most expensive hobbies I'd ever done in my life. But yeah, that's how it started. And I never ever missed any time except for when I had my son. And six weeks after he was born, I was back at it.

Jamie Laing (22:35)

So there was one point you said there, which is, and you, for anyone who's listening to this, you said you Were drawn by the music.

Shirley Ballas (22:42)

Yes.

Jamie Laing (22:42)

And you sort of made that point important. Why is that important?

Shirley Ballas (22:46)

Because people think, you know, that you find dance. And I didn't find dance first, I found music first. And then I saw people moving to music. I didn't know what they were doing, but they were moving to music. And then when he told me it was the Waltz to Moon River, I thought, well, I don't know what that is, but it looks pretty. And I started those children's classes. I loved the music. I still love music today and I just love the way the body feels when it's moving, you know, I just love it. I'm married to it. It served me well. Much better than husbands. Just kidding, boys. Just kidding.

Jamie Laing (23:22)

It's funny, this is. I was in America recently and there's a musician called Jon Batiste. Randomly, I was at this event and he was playing there just by chance. And it was almost religious watching him. I can't explain. It was as if he was put on earth to play music. And when he was playing the pian and he was singing and he was so in it, he just. It engulfed everything about him. And I imagine when you found dance and dance, it's exactly the same thing for you. It's part of you.

Shirley Ballas (23:54)

Well, so many of my friends, the whole of the housing estate, ended up going to that school. I mean, I had a little girl partner called Irene Hamilton. We danced together from 7 till about 11 they all went. But I was the only one who kept it going, you know, through difficult moments. I know I had Irene to start with as a girl partner. Then I got a little boy partner called David Fleet. When I was 12, 14, I got a little chance to dance with Nigel Tiffany, open to the world, British ballroom champion. I was a no. 1, but to dance with him was required to leave home. So I left home at 14 and a half to move to Yorkshire. And there was difficult. I was living with another family in a council property. I was grateful, but there was a lot of us living in a small home and his mum was very, very, very strict. So at 16, I decided to move to London and I was off, you know, to see the world and get myself an apartment and find myself a job that I was not qualified for. I can still remember it was a secretary for Parsons and Whittemore Lydon limited in Croydon. And it was the end of the day when I got that job under qualified. But the man felt sorry for me. His name was Simon Byrne. If you're still there. Thank you for the job, because that helped me pay for my dancing. So I was on and on and on and on, just trying to do something I never was trying to win. I just loved dancing. I wanted to see how I could progress, you know, and then given other choices and options. And the road I took helped me get where I was going.

Jamie Laing (25:22)

When you're seven years old and you start dancing and you start getting into it, your mother is putting you in the dance classes and taking you to these classes.

Shirley Ballas (25:31)

She never took me to the classes.

Jamie Laing (25:33)

You just took a bus every time, all the time.

Shirley Ballas (25:35)

For age 7, I walked.

Jamie Laing (25:36)

That is so dangerous, Shirley.

Shirley Ballas (25:38)

Well, it wasn't back then. It didn't feel like it was back then. It wasn't.

Jamie Laing (25:42)

You're seven, eight, nine. You're young.

Shirley Ballas (25:44)

I know, but I used to walk the couple of miles to the church hall, come, you know, sunshine, hell, high, rain, whatever. And that's why she said, I watched you always on time, always wanting to go. So the more I did that, the harder she worked. And then, of course, that was just a couple of miles from the house. Once I started going to Liverpool for lessons with this new boy, partner, David Fleet, I got. Then it was required. I had to walk to the bus stop, a bus to the train station, from Leso Station to Liverpool Central, run across Liverpool Central to the Ribble bus station and get a bus that took an hour journey across to Crosby. It wasn't so bad going at 5:00. It was awful. Coming back at night at 11:00, at 10 and 11. So, you know, and then we go to different competitions and I was always catching a ride home to see if somebody could at least drop me close to where I lived. My mother came once a month to the Capital Ballroom in Lisgard to watch me dance. It was close to the house and if I went to Blackpool, she was always at Blackpool. But she couldn't go with me. Every week we had Sunday circuit comps. She couldn't go. It was a matter of, you know, you find your way there, you'll have to talk to somebody to try to bring you back. And then that's what I did. I was insistent, though, you know, even leaving home. She thought I'd last about six weeks and come home. But I just always had this kind of fighting personality. I loved it that much that where there was a will, there was a way. And like I say, it taught me an awful lot of skills.

Jamie Laing (27:14)

But that is, you're a young woman traveling back late at night from these places. That's Quite a scary, surely place to be on these buses late at night, 11 o'clock.

Shirley Ballas (27:27)

I always sat by the driver on the Ribble bus. And when I had to run across from the Ribble bus station to what it was, Liverpool Central back then, you would run, I would run. And I could feel the sweat running by my back, but I was very vigilant. I just had that in me. And then I get on the train, instead of getting off at Leso Station, I go across to Hoy Lake, which is where my mother worked in Finnegan Steakhouse. And then I'd stay with her till she left at 2 in the morning or whatever. And I learned how to wait and help wash dishes and do things like that. So I was very hands on. I've never not had a job, you know, from about 13, whether it was working in the hairdressers. I could cook a roast dinner by the time I was 11.

Jamie Laing (28:07)

Did you really?

Shirley Ballas (28:08)

Yeah. My mum was out working and David had had his list. He was always on grocery, the, you know, vegetables grocery. And I was from the co op, so we both had separate lists and then together we learned how to do a roast dinner. So when she got in, we had the dinner ready.

Jamie Laing (28:23)

Wow. You became an adult so quickly.

Shirley Ballas (28:25)

Very quick, I think, you know, on that housing estate, fending for yourself, you know. My brother had a tough time at one point on that housing estate, and I was always the one who managed to sort of divert and go. He was also very strict, though. When my mother was out, he was 18 months older than me. And if I so much as even thought, I'll go and hang at the corner with a couple of friends, I'd see him across the field and he'd come legging it and I'd run home and he said, you're gonna be a dancer, you're not gonna hang on the housing estate. And he would never let me. Never.

Jamie Laing (28:57)

Wow.

Shirley Ballas (28:57)

So. And strict. And I'd hide myself in the bathroom and he'd just sit there until I'd eventually open the door and make promises that I would never hang out on street corners due to him, because there was a lot of untoward there on the housing estate.

Jamie Laing (29:11)

So, Shelly, your brother took his own life.

Shirley Ballas (29:15)

He did.

Jamie Laing (29:16)

I'm so sorry.

Shirley Ballas (29:17)

This week, actually, on the 5th of December, 21 years ago. 21 years ago. 22. 21. 21 years ago. Yeah. It's gone amazingly fast, I have to say.

Jamie Laing (29:31)

When I'm an ambassador for calm as well. Campaign Against Living Miserably. Amazing campaign. Amazing charity that Supports people who are really struggling. And we all struggle and we all have our boulder. And you know, the really sad thing in this. In this country, and is that I spoke to Simon, who's the CEO of Come, who's an amazing guy. The biggest killer for under 45 now is suicide, which is mad that, you know, people feel hopeless enough that they just have to end their own life. When that happens to someone so close to you, like your brother, what does it do?

Shirley Ballas (30:15)

Well, first of all, all those years ago, there was nothing like calm. We were totally uneducated. And I was wrapped up in my life. Cause at that time, I had two other children I was taking care of, plus my own son. And they were all dancers. And I was just wrapped up in my world of ballroom dancing. I was in London, he was up north, and my mother went to stay with him for six weeks. But my mother's old school and they don't share. So what I should have done then, if I look back now, is got in the car straight away and gone to see the situation for myself. He was just in a bad place. He explained it like being in a dark, black hole that he couldn't climb out of. He'd lost a lot of weight and the doctors couldn't help him. We tried to get him sectioned and when. Apparently I wasn't there, but my mum was. When they took him in the car and they pulled up to the hospital, he recognized somebody that was stood on the steps and he was too. He was the macho man on the housing estate. And he was too embarrassed. He made them turn the car around. So had she not been there that day, then maybe things could have been different. And it just. Nobody talked about things like that. No one talked about things like that at all. And they just popped in with pills, you know, like these antidepressants. And it was just difficult all around. I still remember the morning it happened. I call my mom to say that Mark, my son, would be performing at St Paul's Church in London. And maybe they both like to come down for the day. And my brother said, no, no, no, no. I'm feeling much better now, but you go, Mom. And against her better judgment, she didn't want to go. And I pushed her to go a little bit because she'd been there, you know, and was having this tough time. David didn't want to go. And it was that day he chose to do that. So for that I will live with for the rest of my life. She blames herself, but I blame myself because I was the one pushing her to go. She felt she shouldn' Shirley, you can't blame yourself. I know, but you really can't. But you do. But you do.

Jamie Laing (32:05)

No, but you can't.

Shirley Ballas (32:07)

Just was what it was, you know, he left a 10 year old daughter and of course I couldn't get hold of him that night so I called his ex partner and she went round and she was the one who found him at the house with her son. And then of course, she died of alcoholism several years later. So Mary lost both parents. So we've taken. And she is, to me, she's a hero. She's the most remarkable. She works for the NHS and she's the most remarkable human being ever. Again, similar to me, you can play the victim or you can think, this is what it is. Of course it's difficult, this is what it is. And I want to be this person. I have a short life and this is what I want to be this person. She'd never give me a spot of bother ever in her entire life, so. And my brother raised her for the first 10 years of her life, so I think he did a good job.

Jamie Laing (33:00)

Thank you for sharing that, Shelley.

Shirley Ballas (33:02)

It's difficult.

Jamie Laing (33:03)

It's so difficult. I can feel the emotion. It's just. Because what's so awful about suicide is it's a instant, it's a solvable situation and if you take that road, there's no going back. And it's so sad because it's just one thing in that day that can.

Shirley Ballas (33:20)

Make you trigger it doesn't need to be that way, though, you know. Now, of course, I'm much more educated and that's what was so great about Strictly. I love the job, but the platform it gives you to help people, you know, and we get wrapped up in our own life. But if I don't hear from a friend or I think somebody's struggling, I then stop everything I'm doing and then I will go around and sort of do my best to try to check in. And I think that's what we can do, is we have to be more tuned in, listen more to what people are saying instead of yapping off that go, you know, a gob. Is that in the north of England, Gob, gob, gob, gob. Because that's what a lot of people do. They're so busy talking about themselves, they don't take a breath to listen to somebody else.

Jamie Laing (34:01)

Actually, it's so important to talk and share these things. It is so important because someone will be listening to this conversation now and hopefully feel better or go and talk to a friend or neighbor or a brother or sister or someone and potentially save someone. And that is what's so important about it. I don't think we should be afraid of sharing all these things.

Shirley Ballas (34:20)

Well, I think that we're in a new era now where people are more sharing. I mean, now I'm ambassador for calm like yourself. So many people, I mean, I've just had friends who've lost their daughter. She was in her early 30s and it's just horrendous. I know so many people in different realms that have been affected by it. They know a friend or a family member or a child or something and it's more prevalent than perhaps people have time to think about. But I think if we all would communicate more with each other and help each other a little bit more. Take a breath. You know, I'm always trying to do that now as I'm getting older. Just take a step back for a minute and breathe. You know, have a look at what's going on around you.

Jamie Laing (35:09)

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Shirley Ballas (35:20)

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Shirley Ballas (35:47)

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Shirley Ballas (36:02)

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Jamie Laing (36:21)

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Shirley Ballas (36:26)

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Jamie Laing (36:45)

You got engaged to One of your partners. Can you understand the Strictly Curse? Can you understand why people seem to get very close to their partners?

Shirley Ballas (36:57)

Well, I can go and I can look at Stacy and Kevin Clifton. Look at that beautiful relationship there with their gorgeous child and Gorka with his beautiful wife. You know, sometimes relationship works. Like I say, I stay in my lane. I'm there to judge. Cha, cha cha. Leg action, foot action, body action, synchronization. Lovely neckline, lovely posture. Rotate your choreography, darling. I don't get too involved in the Strictly Curse.

Jamie Laing (37:22)

When I was dancing with Karen, we used to. He was just amazing. We would go into every interview and every interview would be asking, are you? Are you? Come on. It's Strictly Curse with me and Karen. They never asked me once and I said in the interview, why? And they went, well, look at her compared to you. And I was like, you kidding me? We could be dating.

Shirley Ballas (37:44)

Beautiful girl, Karen. Love her. You got a great partner there. But, you know, like people say about this Strictly Curse in Strictly Come Dancing, I could say it anywhere in the workplace, anywhere. It could be the bank, could be here, could be there, could be the supermarket. Paths cross, people fall in love. Or when you're locked in a room for four months with each other, you know, maybe things happen. I don't know. I'm not there. Like I say, stay in your lane. Shirley.

Jamie Laing (38:10)

Now, this bit is going to be tricky for you because there has been some controversy recently.

Shirley Ballas (38:14)

O O Where's me brandy?

Jamie Laing (38:20)

I know we're not allowed to discuss it, but when controversy hits like that in a show like that, how, as part of the show, do you move past it? Do you just go, hm, okay, well.

Shirley Ballas (38:33)

I can't speak for the show. I always say that I can only ever speak for myself. I've known Giovanni 10 years. As I've said in many interviews, I have never met a more grounded, kind person. To me, now, that doesn't in any way do I condone bullying, because no one has been through bullying more than me. So I think the BBC did a thorough investigation. It took a long time. They did a thorough investigation and for the most part, and I don't remember the statistics, he got cleared, so that's enough for me. And then just keep moving down the bus and bring joy to people every single week so they can sit there and enjoy Strictly Come Dancing, which is a fantastic family show and hopefully will continue for another 20 odd years or more.

Jamie Laing (39:20)

Can I say this, though? You know, Strictly, which I didn't really, when I. I went, okay, didn't you.

Shirley Ballas (39:24)

Have a great time then. Ah, you loved it, didn't you? You brought us all so much joy every week.

Jamie Laing (39:30)

I loved every moment of it because. Okay, this is my take on it. Strictly Come Dancing is a show about learning to dance.

Shirley Ballas (39:39)

Correct.

Jamie Laing (39:40)

When you have to learn to dance the waltz, the cha cha, the American smooth, whatever it is, it's like learning a new language.

Shirley Ballas (39:49)

Correct.

Jamie Laing (39:50)

And when you have a week to.

Shirley Ballas (39:51)

Do that, well, you don't really have a week, do you? By the time you do the VTs and you travel here and you do that, and it takes two, and you take all that time away, you're lucky if you get four days.

Jamie Laing (40:02)

You get four days to learn a new language. And when you're then partnered with someone who is a professional dancer, they've done it maybe since their age of 15 years old, like you did it, you suddenly realize, I did. This is. From my personal point of view, you go, shit, this is not as easy as I thought it was going to be. This is tough. And it's not a show. People, I think, go onto the show thinking it's going to be lovely and this and that. It's a dancing competition.

Shirley Ballas (40:31)

It's hard work.

Jamie Laing (40:32)

It is hard work.

Shirley Ballas (40:33)

It's a lifetime of work condensed into a few months. And I think that people, people at home would really like to know that, you know, those professionals have got to get you live.

Jamie Laing (40:45)

Yes.

Shirley Ballas (40:45)

Ready for live TV on that Saturday evening.

Jamie Laing (40:48)

17 million people watching.

Shirley Ballas (40:49)

But by Wednesday, you've got to be ready for your wides.

Jamie Laing (40:52)

Oh, God.

Shirley Ballas (40:53)

Do you remember, Jody?

Jamie Laing (40:54)

I used to. I used to when we train, you would train in different rooms around each other. I would leave my room and look in the other room to see if someone knew how to do a Cuban break. Cause I didn't even know what the fuck a Cuban break was. And it was Wednesday.

Shirley Ballas (41:10)

Absolutely.

Jamie Laing (41:10)

It was horrendous.

Shirley Ballas (41:12)

You've got wardrobe, you've got to get your act together with your partner. You need to learn all the choreography. A minute and 20 or however long you're doing it all, as much technique as you possibly can, and then you've got to do your wide by Wednesday. A wide means that the camera is taking an overall view of what the performance is going to be for Saturday. And then by Friday, you're in all rehearsals, and by Saturday, you're doing your dress run. And you've got to be out live in front of 15 million people. That is not an easy feat for any professional, including myself. If I was doing the job that near the other Boys and girls have to do. It's not easy. It is a responsibility of the professional to make sure that you look the best you can look by that Saturday evening. And that's why I always say at the beginning of the series, listen to your teacher. Don't whine or complain. You know, if you get blisters on your feet, get a pair of flat shoes. But keep moving. Get as much information as you can in those first couple of days so that you've got it in your mind. The choreography and the timing and then any small details after that is amazing. But it is the most spectacular time of your life.

Jamie Laing (42:19)

And do you know what it taught me beyond anything? Which is. Which was the most powerful thing, which I think you have learned, obviously, since you were so young. It taught me insane resilience, and I'm pretty resilient in lots of ways, you know, for different reasons, but it taught me resilience in the sense where. Where when you get given. This sounds so strange, that dance can do this to you, but I almost want to look down the. I kid you not. You get given the cha cha, let's say, on, I don't know, the end of the week, and on Monday, you go into London, Monday, Tuesday, a bit of Wednesday, you have no idea what you're doing and your brain is going to mush and you're thinking, I'm about to go out in front of 15 million people. This is going to be the most.

Shirley Ballas (43:01)

Embarrassing thing because it's remembering the sequence, the order of the steps, that's before you even get to the timing.

Jamie Laing (43:06)

It's everything. But what it teaches you is that I never. I thought I put myself in uncomfortable situations or put pressure on myself to achieve something. There is nothing quite like that. And when you really push yourself, you can really achieve anything you want to. You really can. Whether that's learning an instrument, learning languages, getting the job you want, learning a dance. That's what it taught me. Because you really are scared at the beginning. And then by the end of the week, when the Saturday show comes, you get through it and you're like, holy smokes, I've just done that. And you're like, I can kind of achieve anything. It's an unbelievable feeling.

Shirley Ballas (43:43)

The moment you sign up and you read all the rules and regulations and they share with you what the show is about is nothing in comparison to your first day when you go in and put your shoes on and you think, okay. You know, I think it's the most fantastic accomplishment when you can go in as a complete non dancer and end up doing something by the end of the run. It's absolutely sensational to have watched over the eight years all these different boys and girls. And of course, Dancing with the Stars. I used to watch them all for years and over 20 years now, I've been following both shows. So I think you did remarkably well, didn't you? Got in the final.

Jamie Laing (44:23)

It got to the final. Most dancers.

Shirley Ballas (44:25)

But I want to know on the semifinal, when they called your name for the final, didn't you think, that is fantastic? All those months of work and here I am standing.

Jamie Laing (44:35)

Shay, do you want to hear a secret?

Shirley Ballas (44:36)

Yes, tell me a secret.

Jamie Laing (44:39)

When I'm alone at home occasionally I rewatch my semifinal dance YouTube.

Shirley Ballas (44:47)

But you go back and you think, I did that. Yeah.

Jamie Laing (44:50)

It's amazing.

Shirley Ballas (44:51)

Everything and anything is possible. Everything is possible. Even when I signed up to do the Masked Singer, I can't sing. My son had earbuds in when I was trying to sing to him, you know. But I wanted to go out and show that you try, try.

Jamie Laing (45:04)

You gotta try.

Shirley Ballas (45:04)

Enjoy it. You gotta try. One Life To Live. Get signed up, Miranda. Come on now. Get signed up, Miranda.

Jamie Laing (45:11)

Oh, wouldn't she be amazing?

Shirley Ballas (45:13)

I've been following her. Do you follow her?

Jamie Laing (45:15)

Yeah, yeah, we tried to get on the show.

Shirley Ballas (45:17)

She's amazing. She was there at our show at the weekend.

Jamie Laing (45:19)

She's amazing.

Shirley Ballas (45:20)

She is.

Jamie Laing (45:21)

So who's gonna win?

Shirley Ballas (45:23)

You know what I love about the final the most is that the judges don't need to pick the wings, that the audience, viewers at home, pick the winner. And I think they always get it right. Well, maybe not in your case, maybe not my year then, but they do. They've picked the winner that they're all comfortable with. Millions and millions and millions of votes, of course. Christmas Corseland has been outstanding, as has Pete. Raw Beginners. These are your two Raw beginners that have come in. You know, Chris is unbelievable. They're unbelievable. But all of them, all of them, from the very, very beginning, I felt was one of the strongest casts we've ever had on Strictly Come Dancing. It was difficult to send anybody home at any stage and any point.

Jamie Laing (46:04)

Do you think there's such a thing as natural talent or is it hard work and good teaching?

Shirley Ballas (46:09)

I think there's such a thing as natural talent. I've seen some people who come onto the floor. Let's take the year that you couldn't dance on Strictly. And Kelvin came and did his samba. That's a gift that the way the body Coordination of the body moves. So there is a natural talent. But talent isn't what I've learned in my industry. The main thing, you need a little bit of talent, you need a very good brain and you need work ethic beyond anything that you've ever done in your life. So a mediocre dancer who's got all these three things. I've seen win major championships and I've seen some immensely talented people not make the final. But you look at them and you think, oh my God, you should be winning. They're as thick as two short planks. They're not pliable. They don't adapt. Their work ethic is terrible. They're always late, they never turn up on time, they pull out of things. When you, you know, like, I didn't feel well today, you know, I've got a sore throat. I was in bed all day yesterday, but you'd have to drag me out of bed not to come and do this podcast for you. But some people don't have that the minute they get like a man cold. Sorry to do that. No, it's a little man cold. It's true. Listen, I, when my son has a man cold, he's like, he's in bed for three days.

Jamie Laing (47:16)

You know, mom, I was saying to my wife, so she's like, shut up. I was like, she didn't feel very well.

Shirley Ballas (47:25)

So, yeah, you've got to have a lot more ingredients to be a world champion. And then again, if you look at like Strictly, and we're coming now to the end of Strictly, it's not even about the talent or what they've learned. It's about the brain. Now because the bodies are tired, they're exhausted, they've been going nonstop and now they've got these final few shows that they've got to do. So they've got to really pull a strength and inner strength from inside them and a mental capacity that can keep them focused as they move into two dances. It's not easy to do. Not easy. Easy on Strictly. And it's certainly not easy in my industry. It's not for the weak hearted.

Jamie Laing (48:06)

When you were young and you were traveling around and going, you know, you're leaving home at 15 years old and getting engaged at 15, almost 16.

Shirley Ballas (48:15)

That was it. Married Nigel, I love you. I love you. He was probably. But Nigel was probably the right person at the wrong time.

Jamie Laing (48:25)

Well, okay, 16 is pretty young, I would think. You know, I'm, I can't speak for you, but I would say that we don't quite know ourselves at 16 years old of making a decision to marry.

Shirley Ballas (48:37)

He was four years older than me. We were. We were living together with his family, and then we moved to London together. We were dancing together. He was kind. He was caring. And maybe, just maybe, because I'd never had that in my life from a man.

Jamie Laing (48:49)

Yeah, very.

Shirley Ballas (48:50)

From that fatherly thing. He kind of filled that void, you know, that need for me. And then, of course, when he and I split and then I went on to be with Sammy, he also had that kind of same feeling, you know? So I don't. You know, what do you know about love at 16? And then again at 18 when I got married. What do you know? Because you change, don't you? Things change.

Jamie Laing (49:13)

And I can tell you at 16, though, love is the strongest.

Shirley Ballas (49:18)

Wow. I never dated. I never went out to nightclubs or never or anything. I never did that. Never had that. Was always dancing.

Jamie Laing (49:26)

So who was the first person you kissed?

Shirley Ballas (49:28)

I. The first person I kissed, I think, was somebody when I was about 11, on the back of a coach. Can't remember his name, but I can see his face, you know, when we were all going to a competition and he just kind of put his arms around me, gave me this little cheeky kiss on the, you know, side of the mouth. So that was cute, I think. David Fleet, I had a little snog there with him and a couple of others along the way, but that's all it was, was a little kiss, you know, so. Nigel was my first true love at that age.

Jamie Laing (49:56)

I remember I spoke this for when I was 16. That was my heartbreak. Oh, my. I remember I was so in love. I was so in love at 16, because you don't understand the feeling. You don't get it. You're like, what is this feeling that I'm experiencing? What is this? It's crazy, right?

Shirley Ballas (50:11)

I'm not sure. I was always in touch with my feelings.

Jamie Laing (50:14)

You weren't.

Shirley Ballas (50:15)

I don't think I was in touch with them. I didn't really know what to feel. I just kept moving down the bus.

Jamie Laing (50:21)

Really?

Shirley Ballas (50:21)

Yeah. I think my first true love that I ever really felt something really passionate was when I left Sammy. And I thought I was moving in with Corky into Houston, Texas. That was my second husband. And I felt at first, you know, this is it. We met somewhere, and there was a chemistry and a connection, and I thought, this is what love must be. But six weeks after being with him, after I'd left my husband, I realized that wasn't right either. Tried to come back. And then my first husband basically said, see you.

Jamie Laing (50:52)

Fuck you.

Shirley Ballas (50:53)

Yeah, basically. And so. And then I said to my mum, well, I'm not sure this is right for me. She said, well, you made your bed, you better lie in it.

Jamie Laing (51:00)

Wait, break this out. So explain to us. So what happened? So you're married to Nigel.

Shirley Ballas (51:06)

So I was engaged to Nigel.

Jamie Laing (51:08)

Engaged to Nigel.

Shirley Ballas (51:08)

We moved to London.

Jamie Laing (51:10)

Yeah.

Shirley Ballas (51:11)

We were doing very well in the ballroom whilst. Foxtrot, tango, quick step, not so good in the land. Then my teacher gave me an opportunity to have a tryout with Sammy. And I said to her, well, I've got to talk to Nigel. She said, don't talk to Nigel. She said, you've got 10 minutes to make your mind up if you want to have a tryout with this man who's potentially going to be the next world champion as a professional. So I said, I'll take the tryout. You see, after 10 minutes, I'll take the tryout. Even though I was engaged to Nigel. But I did go home and tell Nigel, tomorrow I'm having a tryout with Sammy Stopford. Are you okay with that? He threw me out with all my black plastic. Then I had nowhere to go.

Jamie Laing (51:47)

Wait, hang on. You gotta talk me through that emotion, though, because. Hang on a second. Hang on a second.

Shirley Ballas (51:52)

Follow. My life is quite difficult.

Jamie Laing (51:54)

Oh, my. So you're young, okay. You're engaged to this person and you get offered this chance to dance with Sammy.

Shirley Ballas (52:03)

And now, almost 17.

Jamie Laing (52:04)

You're almost 17, and that is a big moment to come home and you're living with Nigel.

Shirley Ballas (52:11)

Yes.

Jamie Laing (52:12)

And to say that to him, he.

Shirley Ballas (52:13)

Was doing the ironing.

Jamie Laing (52:15)

So you walk in the door and you know what you're about to say.

Shirley Ballas (52:18)

And I'm very nervous.

Jamie Laing (52:19)

Wow.

Shirley Ballas (52:20)

But I said to him, you are the most remarkable ballroom dancer. And I feel in my heart that I'm a Latin dancer. Wells, foxtrot, cha cha, samba, all those dances. I feel like I'm a Latin dancer, you're a ballroom dancer. You know, we could still be married. We could be engaged, but let me have this opportunity. And he didn't want me to have that. So he said, if you go, we're done. And then just stood there looking at him. Kind of when I go back now, a little bit of an empty feeling. I just said, well, I want to try, I want to go. And he said, pack your stuff. So I did. And then I met a girl called Denise Weavers. They. They found a place for me to stay overnight. I went for the tryout the next day with Sammy into the studio with our mutual coach. He said, I don't know who you are, I don't know where you come from, but you've got this tryout with me because of our teacher. And I just did a few steps with him and he said, wow, you feel amazing. You can come home with me. And that's how it all started. Nigel was outside in our little yellow Mini waiting to see if it worked or it didn't. It was just a mess. You know, when I look back now, it was a mess, but when you're in it, I just thought, wow, this is a great opportunity. Maybe I'm going to be able to. To do my Latin now. I mean, I wasn't a great Latin dancer. I was okay, but I wasn't great, but I think I had potential. And then we shot straight to the top as professionals and within six months we were third in the world. And then I got married because the teacher didn't like my surname, which was Rich. We were piss poor, broke, and she said, it doesn't ring well. Sammy Stopford and Shirley Rich. It needs to be Sammy and Shirley Stopford, the Non Stop Stopfords. And that's what she named. And that's every article that came out in the dance press. And we were together until I met Corky when I was about 22.

Jamie Laing (54:03)

When you, when you first danced with Sammy, did it just feel like, did it just flow? Did you feel it was working?

Shirley Ballas (54:09)

Well? He was ranked really high, seventh as a professional in the world. And he was like silk to dance with.

Jamie Laing (54:14)

Explain that for someone who doesn't know silk.

Shirley Ballas (54:16)

So in our industry, we have some people who really use quite physical leads to move each other. And he didn't believe in that. He believed in efficiency. So he wanted me to be able to dance alone and he could dance alone. And as two people coming together, we had such a sensitive Silk like touch. So we never got tired, we were never exhausted because we didn't use a physicality of lead. And, yeah, he was amazing to dance with and an amazing dancer. And basically he taught me the industry. And then of course, we had that drama where I met Corky on a trip that him and that Sammy and I were doing and I met Corky and I fell in love. And then I left and I moved to Houston. I. I never thought I wanted to dance again. Oh, have me back, Sammy. Basically, fuck off, you're not coming back. And then, so then I thought, well, what shall I do with Corky? You know, because it was just so much fun and as a love relationship and then.

Jamie Laing (55:11)

So Corky was the one that you maybe first really loved.

Shirley Ballas (55:15)

First one I felt a deep emotional connection with.

Jamie Laing (55:18)

Got it.

Shirley Ballas (55:19)

But maybe I was just needed that, you know, it was nights out and fun. I'd never had that in my life. And he was a chef, fantastic chef, made a great banoffee pie. Anyway, so I thought, oh well, I better teach him to dance. So in 1984.

Jamie Laing (55:34)

This is mad.

Shirley Ballas (55:35)

This is mad. In 1983, I won the British Open to the World championships with Sammy. In 1984, I came back to dance it with Corky. Sammy was second and I never got out of the second round. And what that means is, let's say if a thousand couples enter. We were in the thousand.

Jamie Laing (55:54)

Yeah.

Shirley Ballas (55:55)

So you win a title one year and you're dumped the following year.

Jamie Laing (55:58)

Wow.

Shirley Ballas (55:59)

So I thought, well, I better try a bit harder. And I used all the technique and tactics that I'd learned from Sammy and adopted them with Corky. And in the middle of all that, I had a baby. So that was unexpected. But in 1995, we came back, Corky and I, to win the British Open to the World Championships. And Sammy was second. So it was quite unbelievable. He was high flying all those years while he was never got lower than second or first. I was going from the first round and you know, climbing, climbing, climbing from 1983 to 1995. So I was the only woman to ever win it with two people.

Jamie Laing (56:38)

Unbelievable.

Shirley Ballas (56:38)

And the only one to be in the final 17 times.

Jamie Laing (56:41)

Unbelievable.

Shirley Ballas (56:42)

You know, with two different partners. It was quite career.

Jamie Laing (56:45)

You like the Meryl Streep of Oscars?

Shirley Ballas (56:47)

Well, I never gave up. I learned how to adapt to the industry when they had forsaken me because. Because I left dancing for Great Britain and went off to America, you know. And then I moved back when I was 30 in 1990 with a little 4 year old and my husband thinking, okay, I've got to make this move, move back to Great Britain, represent Great Britain and let me just see if we could make the final. And we did. And then we won twice. 95 and 96.

Jamie Laing (57:13)

Okay. So I wonder if anyone.

Shirley Ballas (57:14)

And then that marriage fell apart. So there you go. But I held that trophy three times and I had the most adorable baby. And I had twists and turns along the way and up and down and round that even my mother couldn't keep up with me.

Jamie Laing (57:30)

Wait, just for anyone who doesn't understand how competition works, when you go into a dance competition, firstly, how Brutal is. And second, how does it work? There are rounds, there are people, There are rounds.

Shirley Ballas (57:40)

So there are qualifying rounds. So let's use a thousand couples from all over the world. And let's imagine the Winter Gardens, so all thousand couples come in and then, you know, there's rounds. So if you don't qualify in the first round, the first, let's say 100 couples are out and then they just keep going down. You have the 96 and then you have the 48 and the 24 and the semifinal 12 couples until you get to the final six. So it's an elimination process. So even to get to the 24 of the semifinal is fantastic when you think of all the amount of couples that we have all over the world. But to win any of those prestigious times titles, let alone win it twice with two different partners, is. Will go down quite historically in the industry, I think. So I've been there with a meteoric rise, and I've been there when I've had to start from scratch. But starting from scratch, for me, living that comfortable lifestyle with Sammy and everything and starting from scratch was not a big deal because I was raised with not a pot to piss in. So it wasn't a big deal for me. And I have never, never, ever been attached to materialistic things. So furniture, homes. I've moved about 27 times in my life. I've been well off. I've been super broke, you know, and I've, you know, always managed. Like my mom says, it rings in my ear, if you've got good work ethic and you'll take any job to earn a living, you'll be just fine. But if your ego tells you I have to be this and I have to be that, you're going to. So I've done everything from hairdressing to, you know, keep fit classes to, you name it throughout my life. But starting to get to from the beginning has never been a big deal for me.

Jamie Laing (59:25)

It's unbelievable.

Shirley Ballas (59:26)

I've left you wordless a little bit.

Jamie Laing (59:28)

Because it's just there are so many questions I have for you for, you.

Shirley Ballas (59:31)

Know.

Jamie Laing (59:34)

It'S like a movie to me. You would have stayed with Sammy if it was about just winning. So then it couldn't have just been about winning because you married Corky, who was a chef. So it was about love. But also you then trained a chef. I don't know if you know this. You trained a chef, and that's why.

Shirley Ballas (59:55)

I understand everybody on Strictly Come Dancing. A lot of people don't know about Me, I mean, at the very, very beginning, I was the one who got the opportunity to have the meteoric rhyme. But when I, you know, fell apart and left and all that drama and then got with Corky, I was the one as a female who had to teach a male to dance. Wasn't accepted in our industry, was it not? No, because we're male dominated. So I had to take this beginner who, like I said, was a great chef, the Westchase Hilton Hotel in that's still there in Houston, Texas, and teach him how to dance. And he was by far the most difficult person I ever had because he had this great love of himself. And he would say, you stick with me, Shirley. I'll take you places, you know? And he couldn't put one foot in front of the other, so. But what I learned from Corky was resilience. I had that already, but he doubled down on that. They used to skit at him, laugh at him. He'll never be a great dancer, you know, because we weren't getting out the first or second round. He used to wear a suit of armor, and when we'd walk on the dance floor, he'd make this noise. And I was like, what are you doing? He goes, I'm bulletproof. And that's how he was. So he got to do that rise on his own terms. So when he won in 95 and 96, I couldn't be prouder that somebody had taken themselves, trusted me, got to that very, very top of the industry with not a positive person behind him.

Jamie Laing (61:19)

Did you want to marry Sammy or did your teacher push you?

Shirley Ballas (61:23)

My teacher. So when I met Sammy, very strict, stern man, and I probably needed that because I didn't know anything. And like I say, she suggested that the name the Non Stopfords was better than Shirley Rich. Sammy and I never went out on dates. We never went to restaurants, on dinners. We never went clubbing. As I learned that expression, he allowed me to go out on a couple of different things with other people. But we never shifted. And if I could go back now to the younger self, and I'm sure if we could both go back and change things a little bit, I think that we had this connection, Sammy and I. And as much as people in the industry have always tried to stop that connection, I think we'll have it till the day that we die. We've had our ups and downs. We fought like cats and dogs over the years, but I can still call him, you know? And I know in my heart that if my life fell Apart tomorrow. Absolutely fell apart. He could be that person that I could call. I know he'd be there for me. That makes me emotional. I know that he would always be there for me, even though we've had these ups and downs over the years. And Nigel, my financial advisor, you know, Nigel, my first fiance.

Jamie Laing (62:37)

I think it's actually honestly you're again. When I sat with you in that car driving back from Birmingham to London and we sat for two hours, we chatted, chatted through your life, your life is just full of. It's a movie.

Shirley Ballas (62:50)

It is really.

Jamie Laing (62:51)

And I know you've written your book and it's amazing and people should go and read your book because it's just fantastic and we'll leave a link in the description, but it is a movie and it hasn't. It's sort of. There is this whole new chapter, new world that's about. That's beginning as well. Because, you know, I got. You are newly single.

Shirley Ballas (63:09)

I'm newly single.

Jamie Laing (63:11)

Is there anyone out there?

Shirley Ballas (63:12)

You got any nice friends there for me? Jamie?

Jamie Laing (63:14)

Maybe I do.

Shirley Ballas (63:17)

But you know, I wrote behind the Sequins, my autobiography, so that really my son and people that perhaps I'd never shared things with would. It's easier for me to write than talk sometimes. And then of course I couldn't write everything in that autobiography. So my mum said, well, why don't you write your other stories in fiction novel. So that's where Murder on the Dance Floor and Dance to the Death came. So when you read those books, you have to think, did I witness it? Did I take part in it? Or is it fiction? Particularly when I'm talking about nipple clamping and slapping people on the bottom and what goes on behind the scenes and all the drama and everything else that goes on.

Jamie Laing (63:53)

Nipple clamping.

Shirley Ballas (63:54)

Yes. And you know, it's been picked up as a six part series. The first book.

Jamie Laing (63:57)

Get out of here. Yeah, see, that is amazing.

Shirley Ballas (64:01)

Yes. You see, you never know in the world what's gonna happen next.

Jamie Laing (64:05)

Do you say that is amazing.

Shirley Ballas (64:07)

You're always trying to do different projects and share and like I say, everything that goes on, all the drama in those books is definitely in my industry and not that that I've witnessed on Strictly Come Dancing.

Jamie Laing (64:21)

Shelly, you're an inspiration person to talk to because I just love your resilience. I love the fact that you just. Your life has been a lot of down, but it's also been up.

Shirley Ballas (64:29)

And it's up and down like a roller coaster, darling. Roller coaster.

Jamie Laing (64:33)

Rollercoaster. But you just keep. You know, at the end of Strictly, they always say, keep dancing. And you do. You just keep putting one foot in front of.

Shirley Ballas (64:40)

Well, when I die one day, I would like to be remembered for the people I helped. Not for the things that I did or the things that I gave, but for helping with my time to be able to help people, whether it's the next generation in the Boreham and Latin world or my charities, you know, calm and helping somebody not take their own life or something like that. That's what I'd like to be remembered for. And also for forgiveness. So when you're going into Christmas, if you've got people that you've fallen out with, try to move on. The life is so short, you know, so.

Jamie Laing (65:10)

It's beautiful. Shelley, we'd like to end the conversation with eight questions. You ready for this? Oh, you've got your answers.

Shirley Ballas (65:16)

I don't have my answers, but I have your questions. A couple of them were a little bit difficult, actually.

Jamie Laing (65:20)

Okay, well, you can just. Whatever comes to your mind. Here we go. Are you ready for this?

Shirley Ballas (65:23)

Yeah.

Jamie Laing (65:24)

What's a saying or phrase that always makes you smile or cheers you up?

Shirley Ballas (65:27)

Good morning, Mother. How are you feeling today? I'm still breathing. Oh, lovely. I love that. She's 87. That makes me laugh every time.

Jamie Laing (65:39)

Best compliment anyone's ever given you that.

Shirley Ballas (65:42)

They admire my ability to give back and to work on my charity work. And what a good job. And lots of cuddles and snuggle bunny cuddles I get from people that I've helped.

Jamie Laing (65:53)

What scares you most about yourself?

Shirley Ballas (65:55)

Being alone. I don't like being on my own. I don't like being on my. In fact, I hate being on my own. I don't like my own company.

Jamie Laing (66:05)

I think your company's amazing.

Shirley Ballas (66:07)

Wow, that's sweet.

Jamie Laing (66:09)

When was the last time you cried?

Shirley Ballas (66:11)

I. December is always a cry time, because obviously that's the time that David took his own life. So I would say I cry quite a lot, always with my mother. If I'm feeling pretty low, she's the only person I feel like I can really open up with my tears. The rest of the time, I feel like I have to put a very, very strong front on. But I cry with her and she cries with me. So we do, but we keep moving along.

Jamie Laing (66:35)

It's amazing that under the sort of. The glitz and the glamour, Strictly, there is the sort of, you know, dealing with the anniversary and things like that. That's a lot to handle at the.

Shirley Ballas (66:43)

Same Time I can compartmentalize. And I have a big red button that I've had and I've hung my shoulder and I could be in the saddest, most awful time. But if I press it, it's light, camera, action, and on. You go with it and then pick it up on your way out. That's what my mother told me.

Jamie Laing (66:58)

Because it's true. You never know what someone's going.

Shirley Ballas (66:59)

Yeah.

Jamie Laing (67:00)

And that's why you can never judge, because you never know.

Shirley Ballas (67:03)

Yeah, completely.

Jamie Laing (67:05)

What's something you can't let go of?

Shirley Ballas (67:08)

I'm trying to let go of a lot of things, but I think a little bit hard to let go is that time with my dad not showing up and not being there and present. I know he's passed now, but. And I'm still working on just letting it go. Like I say, I'm a very forgiving person. But there are still times in my life when I think, you know, even when my brother died, if he'd have stepped up and took care of Mary. You and helped us with Mary when she lost both her parents. But he didn't. So there's certain things in that that I'm still trying to let go of.

Jamie Laing (67:37)

Family runs deep.

Shirley Ballas (67:38)

Always.

Jamie Laing (67:39)

What's something you'd be embarrassed for people to know you like or want?

Shirley Ballas (67:42)

I don't have anything that I would be embarrassed for people to know you know, so that's exactly because I kind of share everything with people. Even when I had my boobs removed, I shared that. And when I had my teeth done, I shared that. I remember a journalist telling me once, shirley, if you want people to talk about you, make sure you do your own narrative. So I've always learned to put my own narrative out first before the papers make it up. What turns you off, I think turns me off is a liar. Somebody who says they'll be there and isn't. And that could come from my past. If you say you're going to be there at 12 o'clock, please be there because it's your time and mine. Don't be a diva. And what turns me on is great work ethic. To see somebody excited about trying to, in my industry, win or make the final or get out the second round, and they get excited about it. And that turns me on to try to help them to the best of my ability.

Jamie Laing (68:42)

What do you like most about yourself?

Shirley Ballas (68:44)

Oh, dear.

Jamie Laing (68:45)

No, come on, you got this.

Shirley Ballas (68:46)

What do I like about myself?

Jamie Laing (68:48)

Yes, you do.

Shirley Ballas (68:49)

It's easier to say what you don't like about Yourself. What do I like about myself? I like that I have repaid every ounce of my soul, every sinew of my body back to my mother. I like that about myself. I like to think that one day when she's. It's her time to pass, that I will have given everything I could to the person who's given me everything. I have Yeti making me cry. So this is, again, so everything. There's nothing, nothing too great or too much I could do for her in any shape or form.

Jamie Laing (69:26)

Swear word. Favorite one, as a bonus, you and.

Shirley Ballas (69:32)

The horse you rode in on.

Jamie Laing (69:34)

Shelly, this has been an honor. Thank you so much. What do you think?

Jemima (69:42)

Oh, I loved it.

Jamie Laing (69:45)

Did you really?

Jemima (69:45)

Yeah, I really loved it. Had everything, like, a fantastic story. She was open, she shared. She really thought about some of her answers because you were asking questions that she doesn't often get asked. I like the bit about Strictly, like. And there was stuff from the past, there's stuff in the present. I don't know. I just thought it was brilliant.

Jamie Laing (70:05)

I love that. And also, what was so amazing about Shelley, which maybe a lot of the listeners don't know, is that suddenly I could see a glint in her eye where she trusted me and she was like, okay, I can open up here and talk about. Which is amazing. And I love her swear word at the end.

Jemima (70:19)

Yeah, yeah, she was brilliant. And she was just. Yeah, I was really blown away by how much she opened up and, like, shared, because there's a lot of things that are, like, quite difficult to talk about. And she was just. She just went for it. Her life should be a movie.

Jamie Laing (70:32)

Well, it probably is, kind of. She's making the TV series, so maybe it will be. We have something really exciting because we have a special announcement, which is you are going to be interviewing you over the Christmas period. Well, explain that, though.

Jemima (70:45)

Explain why over the Christmas period. Listening is weird because podcasts are things that people get into, like, the rhythm of their week. However, at Christmas, all your rhythm goes out the window. So listening figures. Traditionally, you don't put your best stuff out. So we've decided to put our worst guest, Jamie. Like, no, you guys listen to the show because we have great guests, but I imagine a lot of people are fans of Jamie. And you, Jamie, have not lived a normal life. You've lived quite an interesting life, and you, like, hint at it in the episodes. And you also share a lot.

Shirley Ballas (71:24)

A lot.

Jamie Laing (71:24)

Jesus.

Jemima (71:25)

However, I thought it'd be really fun. Well, we thought it would be really fun to have an episode, a special Episode, it's a little bit different because life is a bit different when it comes to the festive period.

Jamie Laing (71:36)

And there's no one better to do it than you, I guess.

Shirley Ballas (71:41)

So.

Jemima (71:42)

I'm quite nervous.

Jamie Laing (71:43)

Why?

Jemima (71:43)

We're not nervous.

Jamie Laing (71:44)

I. You're gonna be gray. Are you kidding me? It's just talking.

Jemima (71:48)

It is just talking.

Jamie Laing (71:48)

It's literally just talking and asking questions.

Jemima (71:50)

It is just talking. But you know the thing when you say when you know someone interviewing them is hard. You know when you're a bit like, I don't really know.

Jamie Laing (71:56)

But you just have to ask questions. You don't have to even think about it flowing. You just have to wanna. The questions that you want to ask. You can ask anything. And I'm gonna be completely honest.

Jemima (72:05)

Yeah, but it's hard to think of questions I haven't already asked you.

Jamie Laing (72:08)

Yeah, but you can go deep on it. You could. And you.

Jemima (72:11)

You're also.

Jamie Laing (72:12)

Oh, my God, get over that. We're teammates. We're teammates. And also, if you think it's going to be an awkward question, it's probably a good place to start. That's what I think.

Jemima (72:22)

True, true. I just. I won't have anyone producing me.

Jamie Laing (72:26)

No, no.

Jemima (72:26)

So you know when you're a bit like, oh, good.

Jamie Laing (72:28)

So when are we releasing that episode?

Jemima (72:30)

Either Christmas Day or New Year's Day.

Jamie Laing (72:31)

Christmas Day or New Year's Day. We haven't quite decided yet, but it's going to be around that time, so hopefully get ready for that. Now, if you do want to get in touch and ask us any question whatsoever, you can. All you got to do is send us a Instagram slime to our DMs Reece Company podcast. Or you can send us an email, let us know what you think of the episode. Any questions at all. We can answer them on the show as well.

Jemima (72:49)

Can I say I read every email and I love them?

Jamie Laing (72:52)

Yeah, she really does. And maybe you get a response from Jemima and also we're going to start trickling them into the actual show. So please do send us an email. Great. Companyamp productions.co.uk Everything is in the show description.

Jemima (73:03)

Also, don't be offended if you don't get a reply for me because. Because I'm awful at replying to my actual emails anyway.

Jamie Laing (73:08)

That is also true. And if you haven't subscribed to the show, please give it a little subscribe because it means everything for us. Okay, we're going to see you next episode, which I cannot wait for. Yes, it's a big one.

Jemima (73:18)

Although we have a little extra one in between on Monday.

Jamie Laing (73:21)

We have an extra show on Monday. You'll find out why on Monday. Because it's Christmas period. It's very exciting. So get ready for that. You have a double whammy next week anyway. Until then, we'll see you soon.

Jemima (73:32)

Keep dancing, keep listening, Keep listening, keep listening.

Jamie Laing (73:36)

And we'll see you next week for another episode of Great Company.

Shirley Ballas (73:54)

You know, as a busy mom, there are lots of ways you can help yourself fall asleep. You could stare blankly at the ceiling and replay every conversation you've ever had. Count sheep, have a debate with your pillow, give up caffeine, try acupuncture and buy a weighted blanket that will make you sweat profusely. Or you could try some milk, which has nutrients that support healthy sleep. Visit gonnaneadmilk.com for more info. And for everyone's sake, please don't give up caffeine.

Jamie Laing (74:25)

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Jemima (74:27)

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Shirley Ballas (74:35)

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