SPENCER MATTHEWS: OUR FIRST HONEST CONVERSATION ABOUT OUR FRIENDSHIP

Summary

GREAT COMPANY with Jamie Laing

Episode: SPENCER MATTHEWS: OUR FIRST HONEST CONVERSATION ABOUT OUR FRIENDSHIP

Release Date: September 23, 2025

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Overview

In one of the most candid episodes of Great Company, Jamie Laing invites his longtime friend and former Made in Chelsea co-star, Spencer Matthews, for their first honest, public conversation about their decades-long friendship. The discussion traverses the highs and lows of their relationship, touching on miscommunication, emotional suppression, personal trauma, sobriety, and personal growth. With raw honesty, both open up about past hurts, the impact of loss, public scrutiny, and how fatherhood and their partners have shaped them as men and friends.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reckoning with a Rocky Friendship

[00:00–14:43; 41:46–47:29]

• Jamie and Spencer recount being “thick as thieves” during Made in Chelsea years but explain how their bond frayed.
• The main rupture: Jamie didn’t invite Spencer to his English wedding. Spencer admits deep confusion and hurt:

  “I found it pretty confusing… I was pretty hurt by that. And I tried to brush that under the table… but the more I thought about it, the more I… felt that it did matter.” (Spencer, 09:44)

• Jamie admits anxiety, feeling overwhelmed, and a lack of communication were to blame:

  “I was just thinking about her [Sophie], and you… I just went, fine. It’s one thing less to think about. I just won’t ask him to come.” (Jamie, 12:25)

• Both reflect on how old habits—Spencer's avoidance of stag dos due to sobriety, Jamie’s sensitivity to rejection—allowed misunderstandings to fester.
• Both agree: almost everything would’ve been resolved if they’d communicated directly at the time.

2. The Cost of Miscommunication

[14:44–16:19; 41:46–43:52]

• Jamie describes his sensitivity to rejection; Spencer didn’t realize his actions were hurtful.
• “It’s a breakdown of communication. You know, in retrospect, I probably should have come to a stag do for two nights and just not drank…” (Spencer, 14:52)
• Jamie: “Friends are like a garden. You have to water them to keep them alive… and you forget to water your friends.” (Jamie, 42:51)

3. Public Perception & Media Stories

[15:44–21:24]

• The press exaggerated their distance, adding pressure and hurt.
• Headlines speculated on “feuds” and “snubs” regarding Jamie’s ultramarathon.
• Spencer feels unjustly criticized for not being present:

  “I got loads of shit for storying it and not main paging it… Same thing to me.” (Spencer, 20:04)

• Jamie: “It was kind of upsetting… definitely for me.” (Jamie, 15:46)

4. Reflecting on Grief and Emotional Suppression

[27:42–34:31; 54:03–55:51]

• Spencer shares deeply about losing his brother Mike on Everest when he was 10.
• The loss was talked about in vague language (“lost on the mountain”) that Spencer couldn’t process as a child.
• Emotional aftermath:

  “I assumed that he was going to come back… for me, he was alive and well.” (Spencer, 30:29)

• Suppressed pain led Spencer to struggle with empathy, particularly for “everyday” problems:

  “I developed this very blunt nature of, like, if you had a problem, I wouldn’t give a… about your problem because it’s not as big as my problem.” (Spencer, 51:45)

• Jamie observes how this grief shaped Spencer:

  “Because that happened to you at such [a] young age… after that, you’re just like, well, that doesn’t matter compared to what happened.” (Jamie, 54:34)

5. Addiction, Therapy, and Change

[56:02–60:47]

• Spencer openly shares about the severity of his former alcoholism:

  “It got to a point where I began… to kind of black out a bit… I would drink quite early in the morning… I might have a sneaky shot of tequila or something at 9am.” (Spencer, 56:02)

• Describes lying to loved ones, self-worth erosion, and why he stopped drinking.
• Explains how slow, consistent change—sobriety, fitness, therapy—rebuilt his self-belief and stabilized his life:

  “I felt like a slave before, whereas now I’m in complete control… it stems from an immense feeling of self-belief.” (Spencer, 58:43)

6. Growth, Parenting, and Making People Proud

[61:57–65:16]

• Jamie reads a touching message from Spencer’s mother, affirming the pride and love of his family:

  “What he’s achieved through his endurance challenges for admirable causes has been remarkable… we couldn’t be more delighted with him as a son.” (Jamie reading Jane Matthews, 62:27)

• Both discuss fatherhood as a powerful lens for understanding their parents, and their own ongoing desire to make loved ones proud.

7. Admiration for their Partners

[65:16–66:17]

• Spencer credits Vogue Williams for modeling empathy, selflessness, and pushing him to be better:

  “She’s a very empathetic person. She’s just a good heart, a good soul… she will always consider the other person.” (Spencer, 65:20)

8. Made in Chelsea: Reflections and Regrets

[44:08–53:41]

• Neither look back fondly on their on-screen personas. Spencer expresses regret over his portrayal, and the toll excessive drinking took.
• On whether he’d redo Made in Chelsea:

  “No, I think I would keep it.” (Spencer, 46:49)

• Jamie acknowledges both sought validation and it didn’t bring true happiness.

9. Honesty, Reconciliation, and the Future

[66:26–71:03]

• Jamie: “At the end of all of this… are we friends?”

  “Of course.” (Spencer, 66:35)

• Both express hope for the future, acknowledge past flaws, and stress the need for ongoing communication.
• Jamie concludes with a key learning:

  “What I learned from this episode today is you just got to communicate… life’s too short to have feuds and to be miserable with each other.” (Jamie, 70:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|------------|-------| | 09:44 | Spencer | “I found it pretty confusing… I was pretty hurt by [not being invited to the wedding]…” | | 13:46 | Jamie | “The biggest mistake I made at that is not communicating with you and just… I was very selfish.” | | 14:52 | Spencer | “It’s a breakdown of communication. In retrospect, I probably should have come to a stag do… and just not drank.” | | 41:46 | Jamie | "Friends are like a garden. You have to water them to keep them alive… and you forget to water your friends." | | 27:45 | Jamie | “How old are you when your bro died again?” Spencer: “10.” Jamie: “Really?” | | 30:29 | Spencer | “I assumed that he was going to come back. For me, he was alive and well…” | | 51:45 | Spencer | “If you had a problem, I wouldn’t give a… about your problem because it’s not as big as my problem.” | | 56:02 | Spencer | “I would drink quite early in the morning… might have a sneaky shot of tequila or something at 9am.” | | 58:43 | Spencer | “I felt like a slave before, whereas now I’m in complete control…” | | 62:27 | Jamie (reading Jane Matthews) | “What he’s achieved through his endurance challenges for admirable causes has been remarkable… we couldn’t be more delighted with him as a son.” | | 65:20 | Spencer | “[Vogue]… will always consider the other person. She’s a very empathetic person. She’s just a good heart, a good soul.” | | 66:35 | Spencer | “Of course [we’re friends].” | | 70:45 | Jamie | “You just got to communicate… life’s too short to have feuds and to be miserable with each other.” |

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• The Rift and Wedding Fallout: 00:00–14:43
• Breakdown of Communication: 14:44–16:19
• Media, Feuds & Perception: 15:44–21:24
• Public and Private Friendship: 41:46–47:29
• Processing Childhood Grief: 27:42–34:31; 54:03–55:51
• Alcoholism and Sobriety: 56:02–60:47
• Family Pride and Parenting: 61:57–65:16
• Their Partners' Influence: 65:16–66:17
• Reconciliation and Conclusion: 66:26–71:03

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Tone & Takeaways

This episode is raw, honest, humorous, and at times unguarded—true to Jamie and Spencer’s personalities. The conversation moves seamlessly from banter to deep self-reflection. The episode is especially insightful for anyone interested in male friendships, emotional growth, the long-term effects of childhood trauma, and how communication (or the lack thereof) can make or break meaningful relationships.

Final words:

“Forgiveness and making up—you know, life’s too short to have feuds and to be miserable with each other.” (Jamie, 70:45)

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For listeners: If you value open conversation and want a masterclass in male friendship, vulnerability, and the power of saying “I’m sorry,” this episode should not be missed.

Transcript

[Jamie Laing]

You and I were pretty much thick as thieves. Yeah, but we went through a really rocky period. Why do you think that happened then? I had my English wedding. And you weren't invited to it.

[Spencer Matthews]

At first I just brushed it off as, oh, it's fine, it doesn't matter. But the more I thought about it, the more I probably felt that it did matter.

[Jamie Laing]

The true reason for it was this. Hang on a second.

[Spencer Matthews]

Go on then. Hi, I'm Spence Matthews and I'm in great company.

[Jamie Laing]

Sort of.

[Spencer Matthews]

The broadcaster has made history. 30 marathons in 30. This is Spencer Matthews. You've known me for 20 years. Gosh, feels weird saying that, doesn't it?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, 20 years.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah. I don't know anyone for 20 years. We spoke to some of the biggest names on the planet.

[Jamie Laing]

Paul Rudd, Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman, J.

[Spencer Matthews]

Lo.

[Jamie Laing]

We got topless with Channing Dayton.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yes, we did.

[Jamie Laing]

If you could go back in time, would you redo mic or would you not?

[Spencer Matthews]

I was a very heavy drinker at that time.

[Jamie Laing]

What day do you remember when even you went, this is bad.

[Spencer Matthews]

If I could walk past the liquor cabinet and there was nobody looking or nobody around, I might have sneaky shot of tequila or something. At 9am how old are you when.

[Jamie Laing]

Your bro died again?

[Spencer Matthews]

10.

[Jamie Laing]

Really?

[Spencer Matthews]

He was my hero.

[Jamie Laing]

He goes up on Everest and he doesn't come home.

[Spencer Matthews]

Even at his memorial service. Months later, there was no body there. Even then I had thoughts that he was living in Nepal. And I was thinking, you know, maybe one day he'll come home.

[Jamie Laing]

That's very honest. I've never heard you say that.

[Spencer Matthews]

I don't think I have said it before.

[Jamie Laing]

So at the end of all of this, are we friends?

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[Jamie Laing]

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[Jamie Laing]

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[Jamie Laing]

Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Laing and this is Great Company. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Great Company Podcast. I'm your host, Jamie, and this is Jemima, the producer. Jemima the producer. If you have listened to this show before, welcome back. If you haven't, you're probably here because you've seen the title or you've just somehow sprung yourself across it. But today is a big episode because we have an old, old friend of mine.

[Jemima (Producer)]

Yes, we've wanted to do this for a while, haven't we?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, we have Spencer Matthews on the show. I was a bit worried about doing this.

[Jemima (Producer)]

Tell me why.

[Jamie Laing]

Because Spencer and I have had a very long friendship with a very long friendship, especially one having been on a television show together. And lots of things, you go through lots of different ups and downs. We were so close at one point, and then we weren't so close for a plethora, which is a great word for Scrabble of reasons, which we kind of go into today. We talk about in the episode what happened at my wedding, why he didn't turn up to my Ultramarathon run. Our friendship made in Chelsea, alcoholism, his brother dying, and friendship overall.

[Jemima (Producer)]

When was the last time you saw Spencer socially before today?

[Jamie Laing]

The last time I spent since my marriage to Sophie. Since my wedding to Sophie, which was two years ago. Two years ago, I have socially seen Spencer once.

[Spencer Matthews]

Wow.

[Jamie Laing]

We did a podcast together for a bit and he decided to stop that because he wanted to pursue other things at the same time. He stopped his podcast with his wife. He wanted to follow different things and we just haven't seen each other. We went for dinner after my run because he reached out to me. And today's episode, we talk about all of that.

[Jemima (Producer)]

Were you nervous about seeing him today?

[Jamie Laing]

I wasn't nervous, but Spencer's a master at spinning things or working things or doing things any way he likes. Not that he has done in today's episode. But I didn't know what version of Spencer I was gonna get. And so that was a bit like, hang on, is he gonna be the version where he wants to portray himself in this way or that way or is he gonna be raw and honest? And I think we did basically get. I think we got the raw and honest version of Spencer.

[Jemima (Producer)]

I think this is a really interesting episode especially, I mean, we spoke to Alain de Botton a few weeks ago about friendship and the importance of our friends and sometimes holding our. And friendships like breakups. In breakups you talk about things that are going wrong, whereas friendships. I don't know about you, but I will just stick my head in the sand and be like, I'm just not going to talk to you for a bit and try and get over it rather than confronting someone.

[Jamie Laing]

I actually quite like confronting things now.

[Jemima (Producer)]

Yeah. But I still think it's a very nerve wracking conversation to have no side.

[Jamie Laing]

Spencer has his side of why we weren't so friendly and I have my side. And I'm going to stay neutral here.

[Jemima (Producer)]

I'm going to stay neutral.

[Jamie Laing]

You're going to stay neutral.

[Jemima (Producer)]

You say your part, he says his part, and I will just put it all together and what will be, will be.

[Jamie Laing]

And there was part of me that didn't wanna do this episode for lots of reasons. Why? Well, because I sometimes I think that speaking about your personal relationship with friends and family members, you probably shouldn't air on a show. However, I've kind of done that my whole life, so why not lean into it? And also, if I'm being totally honest, life is way too short to worry and sweat the small stuff. Sweat small stuff in other situations. But when it comes to friendship, try and rebuild friendships. Try and make them better. Try and come together. Because in a world where we're becoming disconnected and things are going wrong and people are trying to push each other apart, why not try and bring things back together? So that was the reason I wanted to do it. And the learnings that I take from this is communication is the most important thing in life. And the reason why most things break down is a lack of communication. So if you're in a situation right now and you feel like your communication isn't good, this episode's for you. A lot of learnings from this. I really hope you enjoy it. If you haven't subscribed to our show already and you like our content, please do. It does us absolute wonders, I cannot tell you. Are you ready for this episode?

[Jemima (Producer)]

I am.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay. Enjoy this episode of Great Company with Spencer Matthews.

[Spencer Matthews]

Hi, I'm Spencer Matthews, and I'm in Great company. Sort of. Are these notes? What have you got notes for? You little weirdo.

[Jamie Laing]

Don't you look at my notes.

[Spencer Matthews]

I told Simon that I didn't need notes for you.

[Jamie Laing]

So. Okay. Well, where do you want to begin?

[Spencer Matthews]

Well, it's nice to see you. Firstly.

[Jamie Laing]

I see you, too. Yeah. We did Made in Chelsea together, and you and I, like, grew up together from 1920. Well, let's call it 2122-30. You and I were pretty much thick as thieves.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

I'd speak to you every day. I would see you most days. We'd do everything together. And then somehow along the line, it changed. And I want to know, like, why do you think that happened?

[Spencer Matthews]

It's a really good question. And to be honest, like, I don't regularly socialize with anyone, really. I think when we used to spend a huge amount of time together, we would also work together. Right. We were on Made in Chelsea. We would see each other a lot. We would do Made in Chelsea, New York. Jesus Christ.

[Jamie Laing]

But we did. But we had a friendship. We had a friendship for 20 years. We get into that. We had a friendship for 20 years. It's like, a big deal. And then I. For me, I'll. I'll let you know. For me, what happened is, like, we. I had the. My English wedding and you weren't invited to it, and that, like, kicked off stuff to, like, not make us friends.

[Spencer Matthews]

I have to. I. I have to say I found. I found it pretty confusing. I don't need to spend this time going into stuff like that if you don't want.

[Jamie Laing]

But, like, look, you can I don't mind.

[Spencer Matthews]

I was pretty hurt by that. And I tried to brush that under the table and I'm sure it was just a. Like, you know, I don't want to speak for you, but I'm sure it wasn't malicious from you. Well, at least I'd like to think it wasn't. Right. I remember how I found out about that. I was flying back from somewhere and Verg showed me a Daily Mail article that literally showed me your London wedding celebrations and loads of your friends there. And I think we had had some conversation and you were like, it's not really a friends thing. It's like a family, small thing. And there were loads of friends there. And I can remember thinking, like, what have I. What have I done? Or, like, who? Like. Like, how have I. What have I done to annoy him? And then I. And, yeah, I don't mind saying Vogue was just a bit like, it's pretty. It's pretty weird that you wouldn't be invited to that, you know, And I just thought it is a real shame that I wasn't invited to that. At first I just brushed it off as, oh, it's fine, it doesn't matter. But the more I thought about it, the more I probably felt that it did matter.

[Jamie Laing]

And I don't know, and you don't.

[Spencer Matthews]

You said it was a kind of genuine mistake and. Yeah, and I was just a genuine.

[Jamie Laing]

Big mistake for me as well, by the way, because I think I was. I was stuck in it. I.

[Spencer Matthews]

There must be a reason for it. Like, it's obviously not just, like a mistake.

[Jamie Laing]

The true reason for it was this during the wedding. So was very anxious and having a really tough time with anxiety around, you know, getting married. And, like, I'd put her in doing this podcast all about our wedding, and she had said to me before, she said, I just want to get my married with my feet in the sand. I don't want all of this. And you want this, Jamie, I don't want all this. So I was battling, trying to, like, handle all of this podcast we were doing about our wedding and everything like that. And that was quite a lot to handle. And I was just thinking about her and you. I had had my stag do, and you didn't want to come to the stag do, because that's it.

[Spencer Matthews]

I remember now.

[Jamie Laing]

You didn't want to come to the stag do, which was fine, which I get. But for me, that was like, well, why wouldn't you want to come to the stag do? And so when it came to the English wedding, I was like, this is all hectic. This is a lot. You're. I'm just like. I was just like, it's going to be complicated if I try and invite him because he probably. I don't know if he wants to come because it's going to be like a small thing for lunch and will he want to come do that? And to be honest, in my head, I just went, fine. It's not. It's one thing less to think about. I just won't ask him to come.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And I can now focus over here. And that's why it happened.

[Spencer Matthews]

For the record, I would have loved to have been there and I would have flown. I would have flown from anywhere to be there. Right. Like, you've always been a very important person to me. Stag do's for me. And I know we joked a lot about this in the past. I really. I don't like the concept of stag do's. I personally think that stag do's make whoever you're marrying really uncomfortable. Maybe not in all cases, but certainly, certainly in, in my case, with drinking and, you know, whatever.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

The idea of going to a foreign country, bunch of lads, like, to me, it's. It's even in the times where I used to go on Sagdus, it's never really sat well with me. I get that you always get very, very, very, very drunk. And when you get very, very, very, very drunk, there's a tendency to behave in ways that you might not ordinarily behave in. And I made a decision years and years ago. The bachelor party. Stag dudes just aren't for me. I'm just not interested. And it's not because I used to go on them and behave like a menace. Just the general concept of them I'm not a huge fan of. I should have made more of an effort with you, maybe just to say, listen, like, please have. Have a fantastic time, love to come to the wedding. I really don't want to go on stag do because I don't actually like being away with a bunch of guys getting drunk for three days, but I don't enjoy it.

[Jamie Laing]

But I think now, like, like, firstly, the biggest mistake I made at that is not. Is not communicating with you and just, like, focusing. And I was very selfish. I was just focused on my own emotions and things. So I said to you before, I'm. I'm sorry that, like, happened and if I could take it back, and even Sophie, still, today is Actually, like, that's really bad what happened there.

[Spencer Matthews]

It means, it may, it means a lot. It is, it is completely water on the. Under the bridge.

[Jamie Laing]

I get that. But now, but now we're having these conversations. It's like a good thing. And then. But I also think that because look, and I don't put words in your mouth, right? But I think also because probably at that point, alcohol, I think you were in like the most amazing place with fitness and like alcohol and you're sober and all these different things and probably cause you were maybe battling around like whether not drinking or drinking. And so you were in a selfish space as well, going, I don't want to put myself in situations that potentially are going to lead me to drinking.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

So I'm not going to articulate that to Jamie. I'm just going to say I don't want to do it because that's not my thing. But in my head I'm going, hang on. But I would do that for you for sure.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah. It's a breakdown of communication. You know, in retrospect, I probably should have come to a stag do for two nights and just not drank. You know, I just, I just, I. That was kind of selfish of me.

[Jamie Laing]

But I'm sensitive to rejection. And so, so, so that's that point. So, so that's what happens with me. And then whatever happens, you know, we move forward, you know, we get to a point. And then what was sort of upsetting for me, right, is then I do sort of the ultramarathon runs and that happens. And all the press articles for me and you is upsetting because everything was just around. Spencer and Jamie aren't friends, they're not this, they're not that. And you know, we even like some articles are literally like saying, we got some here, Here we go. You ready for this? Spencer Matthews snubs Jamie Lang's ultramarathon after being pissed off over a wedding feud. Right. Jamie Lane addresses Spencer Matthews feud with cryptic five word dig.

[Spencer Matthews]

Oh, so all these articles, I wonder what it is.

[Jamie Laing]

All these articles started coming out saying that we weren't mates and we weren't friends. And that was kind of upsetting for us. Well, definitely for me.

[Spencer Matthews]

We spoke a lot around that time, you know, because.

[Jamie Laing]

Firstly, but we went through a period, Spain, we have to admit, of not being friendly.

[Spencer Matthews]

But I think, yeah, but I think it's. It kind of, again, it's communication. I think at the time that this was all happening, we could have chosen to be. I was about to Say be men about it, but women probably do this too. We could. We could have gone for dinner.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

Or something and just hashed out what the issues were, and we didn't. And so then it kind of feels a bit sour. And then we spend days not talking anyway. Because in reality, you run God knows how many businesses. Three. I run two. I have three children. Like, life is just different now. Like, do you know what I mean? I don't have the time that I had before for to. To be across all of my friendships in the same way. I. I am. I'm not a great friend anyway. Like, genuinely, you know, you'd be. There's a few people that I'm in contact with semi regularly, and that's it. Like, I'm not. I'm not a. You're like. I admire your social life as well, to be honest. You're. You're out, you're socializing, you're having dinners, you're out with Sophie, you're out with her friends. You're always doing stuff we're not.

[Jamie Laing]

But why didn't. Why didn't we do that? Why didn't we sit down with each other? Because I think there were. There were two sides. I probably had things and you probably. Things that we probably wanted to say to each other.

[Spencer Matthews]

Well, we've hit the nail on the head a little bit with the. With the confusion with the stag do. So I would not have understood that to be in any way offensive or troubling to you at all. At all. So it wouldn't have even crossed my mind that that could even be a potential issue. So for me, the first thing was learning in the Daily Mail that you had friends at your wedding and I wasn't one of them. And I was like, God, I thought we were like best friends is how I reacted to that. So I was a bit like. Then I remember you now explaining, you know, the. The stag do thing. And I. I understand that you don't like rejection. I didn't feel like I was rejecting you. So that. That's where there was a misstep, I feel, because obviously you were. You saw it as insulting. And I didn't. I didn't realize. Had I thought it would have been insulting to you, I would have come.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

So that. I think that's the first big disconnect. And then I think we just kind of lost a bit of touch.

[Jamie Laing]

And I get that. But then after the weddings, you decided to separate yourself a little bit. Separate yourself. And that for me was like, that was the hard point because I was like, hang on a second. This is someone that I've got a 20 year friendship with that I would speak to most days that I grew up with. And that goes back to that able. That you're able to close off your emotions and you were able to go, look, whatever this friendship is here, it's not right for me. And I was like. And I was like, well, I wanna try and figure this out. Right. And so that for me was a bit of like a tricky moment. And then I think when I did my ultramarathons and things, you know, press articles started coming out, I think you suddenly went like, hang on a second, why are we even. Why are we not even talking? Like, why aren't we?

[Spencer Matthews]

Well, that, because that's the first time. That's the first time that it was kind of shoved in my face that we're not friends, if you know what I mean. It wasn't hugely intentional. Like the space was more just exactly that. It was just a bit of space. And to be completely honest, don't take this the wrong way. I probably wasn't thinking about it as much as you were to come to you and say, let's fix this problem. Because it didn't feel like a massive problem. It felt like there was a hiccup with the wedding. And so I'm just gonna give that a breather because it was annoying me.

[Jamie Laing]

Yes.

[Spencer Matthews]

And then when those headlines came out about me not supporting you, I was, I found it absurd, to be honest. Like, you know, because I, I think.

[Jamie Laing]

That because you, you're out.

[Spencer Matthews]

You.

[Jamie Laing]

Outwardly, because I think the, the problem is what happens with the press is that they're expecting you to be posting about it and to be there on the finish line and to be. And, and actually you've put it quite correctly. You, you don't think like that.

[Spencer Matthews]

You don't think my, My plan was to post. When you completed it, to post a congratulations and I did story it and not main page. I got loads of shit for storying it and not main paging it. Like, same thing to me. Like, anyway, I kind of. To me, I'm not an avid social media media person. I like.

[Jamie Laing]

You don't like social media.

[Spencer Matthews]

I, No, I don't. I, I love LinkedIn. If you're listening, I think LinkedIn is awesome. I hadn't even realized that I had made a mistake. Right. So, like, I'm sure it hasn't escaped you as well that these ultra events are organized and curated. This is a this is a Sport Relief. Was it Sport Relief? No, Comic Relief. This was a Comic Relief challenge. When you were met by your pals along the way, there's been some communication between the BBC and them, or you and them or whatever. I didn't care at all that I didn't receive that call. I was, I was watching you. I was staying on top of it all. And when you finished, I posted what I genuinely felt was like, like a two sentence, like. I think I said, I'm really proud of you. And pushing yourself through these limits was really admirable. Or something like that. Oh, fuck you. I was like.

[Jamie Laing]

Because people thought it was a PR stunt. They thought you'd just done it as a PR stunt.

[Spencer Matthews]

My PR were violently unaware of my post anyway. There was so much pressure and then it was like, I've snubbed you. I haven't been involved. And it's like, firstly.

[Jamie Laing]

But what upset you about that?

[Spencer Matthews]

I would have loved to have seen you along the way. My phone didn't ring. I didn't get asked to come to see you.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, but that's because we weren't friendly at that time.

[Spencer Matthews]

The press and the public, like, not that it's some big deal, but like for a little period it was kind of like, why weren't you there? And it's like I just felt like saying I wasn't invited.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, but, but, but leave. But, but it's. But also it's leaning into a place where it's like you. There was no way you could be invited because we weren't even talking and I. And like, so we weren't even friends. So how would. Then you've been invited. So I get it at the same time. So it's like a catch 20.

[Spencer Matthews]

Realize that we weren't even friends, to be honest.

[Jamie Laing]

Potato, potato. That's up for debate.

[Spencer Matthews]

But potato, potato.

[Jamie Laing]

But I would say, I would say, I think, look, I was very proud.

[Spencer Matthews]

Of you, by the way.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

Just so just before anyone thinks that I was, you know, there was a lot of headlines that were calling me jealous. I'm not jealous. Just for the record.

[Jamie Laing]

No, I know you're not. No, I know you're not.

[Spencer Matthews]

I love success generally. Like, I love people doing well. Jamie, doing well is a pleasure to see, even if we're not talking or even if we're not like how we used to be.

[Jamie Laing]

So when did, when was the last time we did a podcast together? Do you think?

[Spencer Matthews]

Why have you said do I think? Do you know? It's ages ago.

[Jamie Laing]

Why I Don't I. I have an idea of what it was because you and I, for anyone who doesn't know, we had our podcast Six Degrees with the BBC. Very famous, very famous podcast that lasted four years.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, it was your idea. Very good idea. Six Degrees of separation. We can find anyone.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, we spoke to some of the.

[Spencer Matthews]

Biggest names on the planet.

[Jamie Laing]

Paul Rudd, Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah. JLo.

[Jamie Laing]

JLo.

[Spencer Matthews]

JLo just launched an alcohol brand. She doesn't drink. Crazy stuff. Who was the.

[Jamie Laing]

Who was the maddest person that we interviewed? What interview? Do you remember? We walked in and it was complete chaos.

[Spencer Matthews]

Because I remember my one Aaron Taylor Johnson didn't love us. I brought it up to him when I saw him at Glastonbury.

[Jamie Laing]

And what did he say?

[Spencer Matthews]

I said, do you remember me? And he said, no, I don't think we've met. I said, oh, we have. I interviewed you for Six Degrees.

[Jamie Laing]

And he went, oh, I love that.

[Spencer Matthews]

And he went, oh, yeah. No, he just, he wasn't very comfortable with us. With us. Me, I don't think like, he, he didn't, he didn't like me. I don't think we're. Since, you know, we've made up everyone.

[Jamie Laing]

But, you know, we used to do these interviews together. Yeah. And I would. It would be like Brad Pitt or Aaron Taylor Johnson or Morgan Free, these big stars. And what we would do is we would. It'd be like a junket style thing. So we would go and interview them in a hotel room somewhere in London. You would arrive and you'd go, all right, who is it? I'd be like, well, it's Paul Rudd. And you go, okay, great, what movie is it? And I'd be like, well, it's like Ant Man 2 or whatever it was. And you'd be like, okay, brilliant. And the way that your brain works is you actually quite live in the present in a lot of ways. So then as soon as we were about to go. And you went, oh God, we're about to go. What do I say? And I was like, well, we just go and talk. We saw Brad Pitt. You hadn't even seen the film Bullet Train.

[Spencer Matthews]

This is a shocking film. It was shocking.

[Jamie Laing]

You hadn't even seen Bullet Train.

[Spencer Matthews]

I watched it afterwards. Horrendous. It's one, honestly, that if you're listening to this and you haven't seen Bullet Train, don't bother.

[Jamie Laing]

When did it go wrong? Do you remember the time that we interviewed Aubrey Plaza? And I walked in and said, hello, Audrey. Yeah, yeah. And she went, My name's Aubrey.

[Spencer Matthews]

She hated us as well. I think.

[Jamie Laing]

She did not like us.

[Spencer Matthews]

We've got kind of. We've got. We've got. We had a lot of energy sometimes when we've come in. I think it was a lot for Aubrey. She wasn't that interested in. In us. When I was in gym kit, can you remember? She was like, you couldn't even be bothered to get changed. I was like, well, I'm busy.

[Jamie Laing]

We caught topless with Channing Tatum.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yes, we did. He said that we were in good shape. He's not wrong.

[Jamie Laing]

So. And then we stopped it. Because you wanted to stop it. You had just done your 40, 30 marathons in 30 days.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, it's. It was. It was. I had the same realization as I had with a number of things. So. So in. In the desert, I had the. These beautiful kind of cathartic moments where.

[Jamie Laing]

What does that even mean? What do you mean?

[Spencer Matthews]

Like, spiritual moments? I learned about this space called thin space, when I did a show about religion, essentially for the BBC. And it's said to be that. That space between kind of heaven and earth, you might experience it feeling a gust of wind, you know, on your shoulder, or you might be thinking about a particular person and they call you. You know, that happens all the time to lots of people, but it's this sense of kind of deeper connection. And I feel that sometimes with my brother Mike, who passed away on Everest when I was 10, when I pushed myself physically to what, you know, my. Or near enough, my limits. So in the desert, when we were, you know, when you're deprived of sleep and you're low on energy and you're in one of the most beautiful parts of the world, the Wadi Rum Desert, I felt this kind of deep connection to my brother, and so we'd see these shooting stars. But, you know, I had a particularly bad experience on. On the first day, I said a prayer to my brother, which I never do, and I kind of. I literally. I got on my knees in the sand, and I put my hands together, and I spoke to my brother, and I just said, please make today better than yesterday, and just give me some hope, because I put in a lot of preparation. I ran 2000km in preparation for this thing. I put in the work, and we started running, and I was with Johnny, my. My physio, who is coming on my next challenge. And a shooting star flew across the sky that was literally. I've never seen anything like it in my whole life. It was. It was the biggest. I still don't even know if it was a star or something burning through our atmosphere. Atmosphere. Hugh left a huge red tail, lit up the whole sky. And I just felt from that point on that my brother was with me, speaking to me and it was amazing, you know, I just, man, I. And, and the day was easier and then, you know, I, I began to feel much more comfortable and, and everything.

[Jamie Laing]

Went into place, fell into place. How old are you when your bro died again?

[Spencer Matthews]

10.

[Jamie Laing]

Really?

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah. 10. Quite difficult to process at that age, death, you know, difficult thing for anyone to, to lose a loved one.

[Jamie Laing]

But what was your relationship like?

[Spencer Matthews]

He was my hero. I kind of, I loved him dearly, but obviously it was. He was in his mid-20s or, you know, coming into his mid-20s. 10. So, you know, huge age difference. It's not like, you know, we're outside playing sport together or socializing together in the same circles or anything. He was very much. My dad would work a lot when I was younger, so he was, he was away a lot of the time. Like I don't, I don't remember too much about my dad being at home with us. So Mike was, was there because James was away racing a lot. He was a professional racing driver.

[Jamie Laing]

That's your older brother?

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah. And so I was with Mike a lot. You know, Mike and I would, would play video games together, we'd play hide and seek together. You know, we, we were, we were pals, you know, and he would look after me and I would always feel that, oh, that's nice. And I would always feel.

[Jamie Laing]

So this is a picture of your bro.

[Spencer Matthews]

He made me feel safe and he made me feel loved and you know, so did, so did my mum, obviously, you know, but to me he was, he was everything to me as a, as I wanted to be just like him really.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

You know, he was a great influence on me at a young age because.

[Jamie Laing]

If someone's your hero, right, and when he, he goes up on Everest and he doesn't come home and how is that even like articulated to you at the time? How do you, what happened? How do you even find out at 10 years old?

[Spencer Matthews]

Language was used with me that was accurate, but that I didn't, that made it harder for me to understand because it wasn't definitely, it would be definite to an adult but not to a kid. So I came up to my parents room.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you remember it?

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was in, I was in, we were in the Caribbean at the time and my mum asked me to come up to their room and they said Michael is lost on the mountain and to a 10 year old, I was kind of like, well, I don't understand what you mean, you know, surely, okay, well, he'll be found. It's fine. You know, it was lost, you know, to an adult or anyone that knows anything about Everest. If you're missing on Everest, your chance of survival is slim. You know, it would be near 0% to survive the night and then be found. It has happened, but it's pretty rare. You'd need to be incredibly lucky. And Michael wasn't lucky. We never found his body, but it was, it was, it was just difficult to comprehend as a kid. It didn't affect me at all for a little while because.

[Jamie Laing]

What do you mean spen. How can it not affect you?

[Spencer Matthews]

Because I assumed that he was going to come back. Yeah, for me, he was alive and well, so I couldn't really understand why my parents were crying. I couldn't understand why.

[Jamie Laing]

Did you see your parents cry?

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, I couldn't, I. But I couldn't understand that. To me, it was kind of like. But Mike is, he's super strong. He's super fast. He climbed Aconcagua, like, better than anyone else on, you know, at the age of 19. He's fit, he's strong, he's, you know, so to me, it was kind of like, this is all a big mistake and the phone's gonna ring and, oh, Mike's, you know, Mike went down with that. You know, you're a kid, you, you kind of fantasize about things that aren't possible.

[Jamie Laing]

When did you understand that he wasn't coming back?

[Spencer Matthews]

Well, even at his memorial service months later, there was no body there, so. Because, you know, we weren't able to recover his body. So even then I had thoughts that he'd gone down into Nepal and was living in Nepal. And I was thinking, you know, maybe, maybe one day he'll, he'll come home and maybe. But then I couldn't quite figure out why he would want to do that to us. And then obviously you begin to process the, you know, maybe, maybe I won't ever see him again. But it took me ages to realize that that was a reality. Like, it never, it never hit me in the way that it would have hit James. You know, James would have heard, he's lost on the mountain. James would have gone, he's dead. And, and from that point on, you begin to process the fact that you've lost your brother. Whereas in many ways, you're happy that you're a, you're a child in that instance. Because you don't, you don't get the gut wrenching pain if you don't process it as well.

[Jamie Laing]

You never cried about it.

[Spencer Matthews]

I'm looking forward to talking to you about crying.

[Jamie Laing]

Here we go. Yeah, no, because you don't cry. I've never in my life seen you cry ever. I don't think. And the only two times I know that you have cried is when you were on a plane. You told me about it. You were on a plane once and you were coming back from somewhere and you just couldn't stop crying on a flight randomly.

[Spencer Matthews]

I used to feel that I had no emotions, but that's not true. I do have emotions and I can.

[Jamie Laing]

We've learned to suppress them.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, but it's not, it wasn't intentional. I think people suppress emotion on purpose. I don't suppress it on purpose. I just don't have access to a range of emotions that maybe a normal person might have. It is there. It's just I don't really have access to it.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, because I don't think you've learned. I don't think you understand it in my, my limited knowledge of psychology. Right. And just knowing you so well, I don't think you, I think when you feel emotion that you don't understand or don't like you, in my opinion, you'll, you'll try and push it away by using things that you know that you can understand. So you drank, you, you drank a lot, right. And you've spoken about that. So you would use alcohol to suppress certain things you didn't understand because. Much easier to suppress it with certain things rather than facing up to it. Or, or one could argue that becoming an ultra athlete is another, in a way, addiction that you go into because you're suppressing feelings. And I think that 10 year old kid, in some ways, when your brother died, your hero, that's going to affect anyone and you took it upon yourself to just protect yourself and you just closed down and you went, right, I'm closing myself down and then I'm just going to get through it without realizing maybe.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, potentially. I would say it's subconscious.

[Jamie Laing]

Of course it is. Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

It's not intentional because I have, I'm a great believer in therapy. I have very regular therapy even when I'm, you know, killing it in business and in life. And I couldn't be happier. I have therapy.

[Jamie Laing]

And so what does the therapist say to you?

[Spencer Matthews]

I don't see therapy as a place to turn when you need Help, necessarily. I think it's really useful just to talk about how you're feeling generally. Right. I enjoy therapy a lot, actually.

[Jamie Laing]

But this is new to you.

[Spencer Matthews]

Quite new. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

So is definitely new. 100% it's new because when I made. Loads of people don't know this. When, when I was. When I went through my tricky times, I would talk to you a lot about it. Not really anyone, but I would talk to you. I'd say, I feel about this and I feel about that. And you almost didn't really understand it at times because you haven't experienced, you haven't really allowed yourself to feel anxious or depressed or whatever because you have this amazing protective way of stopping those feelings coming out.

[Spencer Matthews]

But would you want to feel anxious or depressed if you had the choice?

[Jamie Laing]

No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to. And perhaps my natural chemical makeup is to feel that way. Like I'm probably more anxious, just naturally. So when you see this photo here of your brother, what does that make you feel? Truthfully?

[Spencer Matthews]

Well, it makes me miss him because I don't, I don't, you know, that that age, I think, is quite specific to, to. To growth, isn't it? And love and your childhood being molded. So take him out of that picture. You've just got, you know, a little boy on his own. And obviously my family have always been there and I feel, I have felt very supported through that particular loss my whole life. I don't know. I think I'll take you through an example of when I did cry, by the way, because you said that you've not known me to, to cry. I told you about the time on the plane, which was just absolutely. It was the most unusual thing that's ever happened.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, because you don't understand it.

[Spencer Matthews]

But that was a, that was a. I don't know what it was an emotional release of years, perhaps of pent up, like, like I, I was screaming. I had to put a blanket over my head so that I could avoid people complaining about the screaming woman, you know, in, on, on the plane. I literally, I couldn't control. It was bizarre.

[Jamie Laing]

Where were you coming back from?

[Spencer Matthews]

I was coming back from Costa Rica. I'd been doing an Ultra event there, 250km through the Amazon rainforest. Yeah, it was incredible. When I finished, I got, I had this, this kind of great release. It was this incredible moment for me. And then on the plane I was watching. What's that amazing Tom Hanks film, Captain Otto. A Man Called Otto, man called his great. And. And I don't know what it was, but I was, I was really moved by the film.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

And, and I've, by the way, I've watched it since and I'm not that moved by it. Do you know what I mean? So it's kind of like it had nothing to, it was more the. I'm still moved by it, but not in the same way.

[Jamie Laing]

Right.

[Spencer Matthews]

So like it was, it was this incredible, incredible thing and I ended up just shrieking, crying. So I had to. My seat didn't go the whole way back but I had to lean back and put, put something over my face. And like I was, I was shrieking, like yelling. And it happened on the following flight as well. I was just like.

[Jamie Laing]

But why do you think that happened?

[Spencer Matthews]

I don't know.

[Jamie Laing]

Come on.

[Spencer Matthews]

Maybe I was like.

[Jamie Laing]

Because you never, you never show emotion.

[Spencer Matthews]

Maybe it's the. Yeah, well, there's a bit of that, it's all pent up obviously, so maybe there's a bit of that and maybe it's, I don't know, feelings of, of doubt and a bit of self loathing turning into pride and stuff like that.

[Jamie Laing]

Here we go, here we go. Yeah, here we go, Here we go.

[Spencer Matthews]

Dr. Jamie.

[Jamie Laing]

Here we go.

[Spencer Matthews]

And, and, and, I don't know, there's all kinds of stuff. I felt incredibly proud of myself. I couldn't wait to see my family and I knew I was flying home to them.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. But I think spent, if I was, have to dig deep because I think you and I suffer with the same slight kryptonite. Right. Which is where actually what we really want is to make people proud and typically our family proud. And that's what we really want at the end of the day.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, I think so.

[Jamie Laing]

And I think that we spent our twenties not making our parents proud in lots and lots of ways. Drinking too much, behaving badly, just, just being complete idiots on a television show for so long. And I have in, in. I think I've come to terms with that much more than possibly you. I don't know, maybe you have now, but, you know, had or have.

[Spencer Matthews]

But no, I think, I think it's interesting. You and I have never sat in this kind of more serious setting and had a serious conversation. I'm realizing by the way, like you and I have.

[Jamie Laing]

Blokes don't do this.

[Spencer Matthews]

Well, we've only ever like our work has always been tied to making people laugh as well. Right. So you, you and I have never spoken before in a serious way and that's dawning on me quite. I keep feeling like you've got something shoved up your sleeve or something.

[Jamie Laing]

No, I don't have anything. I have nothing. I have nothing. I literally have nothing. I swear to God.

[Spencer Matthews]

I'm not used to chatting seriously with you.

[Jamie Laing]

You.

[Spencer Matthews]

To be honest.

[Jamie Laing]

Agreed.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, but it's. No. We've had a lot of similar realizations. It's one of the reasons that our friendship has been so brilliant and flawed along the way. But you and I. I've experienced exactly what you're talking about.

[Jamie Laing]

So the.

[Spencer Matthews]

The biggest turning point in my life. Crossing the finish line of the 30th marathon in the desert was the biggest moment of realization that I. That, like my family, are so proud of me. Journalists would talk to me differently. It almost becomes less about your ego. It's like you've done something that has forever changed you and you've felt and experienced things that not many people will experience. But that's not why it's interesting. It's a reflection of who you want to be but were never able to be before. In my case. You know this.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

Like, the person I'd like to say that I am today is exactly who I used to want to be. But couldn't be or didn't find your way there. Yeah. And. But I. I suppressed a lot of that with drinking and stuff for the Michael. I don't. I don't love blaming no Mike's death on my alcoholism because I loved drinking.

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[Jamie Laing]

What did you miss about our friendship?

[Spencer Matthews]

The laughs. So, like, I miss our. I miss our podcast.

[Jamie Laing]

The reason why I wanted to do this and do yours is because, firstly, yeah, it is boring when there are articles coming out saying you're not mates and all these things, and every single time that one person. But I get it. It is boring. And it's. And it's suffocating. And actually you're caring about your family. I'm about to start my family and that's what we care about. And so. And so that. Which I get. Hold on a second. But. And I. And I'm just. And I'm. And I'm looking. I'm happy. And I. And I missed our friendship. Genuinely missed it. I think you admit that you were. You're a tricky person to be friends with. But I think that I'm. I'm that constant friend.

[Spencer Matthews]

I'm not. You've had, for 20 years friends with. I'm. I'm. I'm not.

[Jamie Laing]

You're definitely.

[Spencer Matthews]

I'm not always there. Why am I tricky?

[Jamie Laing]

Because you're so involved in what you're doing and, and to be a good friend, you have to. You have to think about your friends quite a lot. And because you're so driven by your. Your own, which is not a bad thing, your. Your own success and your family that unless you're in your circle, in your present, then you're blinded to anything else.

[Spencer Matthews]

That's true.

[Jamie Laing]

Which makes you, as a friend, hard to be friends with, because friends have to. You have to. Friends are like. Friends are like a garden. You have to water them to keep them alive. That's who they are. That's how you keep a. That's how you keep a friendship. You have to keep watering them the whole time. And you forget to water your friends.

[Spencer Matthews]

What will happen if I forget to water you?

[Jamie Laing]

But you do. You do. That's how you make it. That's how you build friendships. You have to keep doing that.

[Spencer Matthews]

I agree. I agree.

[Jamie Laing]

You've taught me a lot in my life, and I've said this to you for the reason why I loved our friendship, or do love our friendship, is because you're incredibly unique, but actually, underneath it all, you're quite sensitive without people realizing in some ways. And I know that I can ask you about a lot of different things, Whether it's family or relationships or weight training or anything. And you'll give me a pretty good answer and you will want to help me with it.

[Spencer Matthews]

That's true.

[Jamie Laing]

What is your.

[Spencer Matthews]

All of those things are true. Like there's never been. There has never been a time where I have disliked you.

[Jamie Laing]

What is the. If we go to the good times and let's talk about. Mic, just quickly.

[Spencer Matthews]

Okay.

[Jamie Laing]

What are moments that really stand out for you? We're just like, oh God. What is like a pivotal moment on Maiden Chelsea. That really sticks out. That was me and you based. Where were we? What were we doing?

[Spencer Matthews]

New York was. I thought I was having a heart attack in a taxi once. Genuinely. I considered asking the taxi driver to take me to the nearest hospital because I was just on such a mad bender. Like, genuinely, I. Like I was coming home. It was about 10am and literally I was sat in the back of the cab and I was like, how do I know if this feeling is a heart attack? And I was like, oh my God. I swear that like when your left arm goes numb, that means you're having a heart attack. And then I'm like opening the window going, I'm trying to get air in. Not that that's going to prevent the heart attack. And then like I'm kind of just like. And then you've got that weird thing. It's like, do I tell the taxi driver that I think I'm having a heart attack or do I just see if it actually is a heart attack? Or then will it be too late? So no. There was a. New York was full on. Full on.

[Jamie Laing]

And we were living in a one bedroom apartment in Meatpacking district. Just you and I.

[Spencer Matthews]

It was enormous. Like the trip, I mean, not the apartment. The apartment was pretty cool.

[Jamie Laing]

It was tiny. I slept on a camp bed the entire time.

[Spencer Matthews]

And you had the bed hustled every single morning. For breakfast we went to this Mexican, Mexican restaurant called Dos Caminos, which we titled Toscaminos because it was actually quite shit. That whole time was pretty fun as well. Let's be fair.

[Jamie Laing]

It was great times, wasn't it?

[Spencer Matthews]

It was. I mean, why do you. That was a feeling where you felt like less of a loser. I mean, the behavior, my goodness. But like, but like you felt like, okay, cool, we're on like a us based TV show.

[Jamie Laing]

Filming big and exciting.

[Spencer Matthews]

Felt so exciting.

[Jamie Laing]

Felt big and exciting. It was fun. But I.

[Spencer Matthews]

But there's a sign was big and not exciting.

[Jamie Laing]

Jesus.

[Spencer Matthews]

It was dreadful. I was Just, you know, you'd think, you'd think that you'd take the opportunity to, like you're about to star in some massive TV show. Just look after yourself a little bit. No, just turn up pissed and sweaty to every scene. Do you know what I mean? Massive sweat patches and just like red face and just slurring, like, in every scene.

[Jamie Laing]

What are we doing?

[Spencer Matthews]

I was just. I wasn't even. I don't think I was sober for a single minute, genuinely. It's horrific.

[Jamie Laing]

If there was a magic wand right now and you could go back in time, would you redo mic or would you not.

[Spencer Matthews]

Like, can I do it, but do it differently?

[Jamie Laing]

No.

[Spencer Matthews]

Okay, you have to do it.

[Jamie Laing]

You go back in time and you do mic just the way it was.

[Spencer Matthews]

No, I think I would keep it.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, so you would keep it. But also at the same time, you find it so frustrating to talk about because you believe it paints you in a light that you don't perceive, which I get. And perhaps it did in certain cases where I totally understand.

[Spencer Matthews]

But like, what I find hilarious, right, is that it's still just there.

[Jamie Laing]

Yes.

[Spencer Matthews]

I'm 37. I started main Chelsea with you guys when I was 20 or 21 or something. Taxi driver yesterday, right on the way, like, I was heading home, long day, bloke looks at me and he goes, so what's happening with maiden Chelsea then? I was like, I don't know, mate. I left 10 years ago, couldn't give a shit.

[Jamie Laing]

But do you not. But does not part of you say that you, through the good, the bad and the ugly, you entertained a huge amount of people in their teens, in their 20s, in their 30s, you being probably one of the best reality stars to ever exist. I would argue, wow, you truly were. Because what was so interesting about you spen is you got it from day one.

[Spencer Matthews]

We did understand it, that's for sure.

[Jamie Laing]

I didn't. It took me about a season and a half, two seasons to understand you from day one, realized that you're creating an entertainment show and you have to be entertaining. I thought it was real life, which it was real life, but it. But also you become a volumed up version of yourself. That's what happens, I guess I just like.

[Spencer Matthews]

I catch the occasional clip of it, right, of me back in the day. Because people send them to me sometimes. Don't do that. If you're listening and it's kind of, I don't know, I don't find myself that funny or entertaining. I look drunk as and I'm Just like, I don't, I'm not, I'm not proud of the work. It's great. Then thank you, by the way, for saying that I was very entertaining and that lots of people found it entertaining. That's fine.

[Jamie Laing]

But, but it's like you're not proud of yourself.

[Spencer Matthews]

I don't look at it and, and you know, like you look at clean code, something that I've built. I'm proud of that. If you look at untapped, I'm proud of that. You know, these marathons and stuff, I'm proud of. I'm proud of that. I want my kids to see that. I want them to feel like they can achieve thing and that they have someone to look up to in their own house, you know, who, who has gone out and, and done interesting and exciting things. So why can't they go out and do interesting and exciting things? Being on a reality show is an interesting and exciting thing, you could argue. But I don't know. The, the portrayal of myself is slightly shameful. I think. Like, I look back at it and I just think I'm not sure I'd want my son to be like that. Right. And I'm not sure that I admire any traits of Spencer from Maiden Chelsea, if I'm going to refer to myself in the third person.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you think you were happy then?

[Spencer Matthews]

No, no, not at all. Well, I was having fun in inverted commas. Wasn't happy. I was, I was desperately unhealthy. Like, like I'm very lucky. Very lucky that my mental health is so robust. Yeah, very lucky.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

Because I was consuming not to continue talking about alcohol, but I was like, I was just, I was consuming so much alcohol, so many late nights sleep always disrupted. Now that I've grown up and I understand health and wellness, you know, a lot better than I did. And pushing yourself and dopamine releases and boundaries and, you know, exploring human potential. I was living the worst possible life that I could have been living in that time, you know, throwing up all the time. Like I was, I was like I was, I was really unhealthy. I don't look at it and I don't see a fun, cheeky, you know, character who's entertaining and admirable. I see a mess. So that's why I don't love it.

[Jamie Laing]

But I also, if I was to. And one could argue that, right? One could go, okay, fine, but I almost. You have to be a certain type of person to decide to show your life on a reality TV show. Right. So that Makes us similar in some ways. And I look at myself in some scenes and I sort of feel sorry for myself because I know what I was going through and I felt that for you as well, and you. And sometimes when I look at you, I feel. And I maybe don't go. But I feel sorry for you sometimes because I think you would. Without even you, really. I think you're just dealing with a lot. I think you were dealing with a lot of, like, shame and a lot of grief and a lot of rejection and lots of things. And I think we both thought that. That being on a show and being in that period would give us everything that we wanted, but in fact, it took everything away.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, I think that's fair. And also just the. The general, you know, just when you lose. When you lose someone close to you very young, I think it's, you know, it's. Firstly, we've established that it's. It's hard to process, but it also makes everything else seem like it's not a problem. So I develop this very blunt nature of, like, if you had a problem, I wouldn't give a. About your problem because it's not as big as my problem, you know, and it's kind of like. It's this strange thing where almost nothing matters and, you know, like, subconsciously, after a few drinks, it's kind of like, oh, how do you feel about, you know, the binky situation? Well, I don't give a fuck about the binky situation because my brother died. You know, it's always there type thing. The big situation is pointless and it's tiny and it's irrelevant. Right. Because I lost my brother, you know, so there's bits of that that are always kind of there when you're a bit drunk.

[Jamie Laing]

That's very honest.

[Spencer Matthews]

Well, yeah, but. But also it makes you.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, but that's. I've never heard you say that ever.

[Spencer Matthews]

Well, yeah, I don't think I've. I have said it before. It gives you. It gives you a lack of empathy as well. So I. I am. I do have empathy, but I'm not. It's not easily accessible.

[Jamie Laing]

Because you're. Because your brother died, I think, and it was so awful, the fact that you've broken up with someone. I don't care. Because it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant.

[Spencer Matthews]

You could care less. Yeah, like, you know, it doesn't. This doesn't affect anyone, you know, so what?

[Jamie Laing]

Wow. Because, you know, something like that affects.

[Spencer Matthews]

Everything, you know, just. Just. That's just a kind of thought that I just had the. You know, I think you can make.

[Jamie Laing]

A lot of sense.

[Spencer Matthews]

You can associate a lack of empathy with all kinds of stuff or lack of sympathy, a lack of empathy.

[Jamie Laing]

But.

[Spencer Matthews]

But I think that. I think that when you have gone through something really turbulent as a kid that you struggle to process for your entire childhood.

[Jamie Laing]

Yes.

[Spencer Matthews]

Almost everything else feel like your business goes bust. Us. So what this is, you know, my family. My family is still alive.

[Jamie Laing]

Yes. This is exactly 100. Which I think that's exactly it. This is it. This is what I was saying at the beginning that I think because that happened to you at such young age, such a catastrophic disaster that after that you're just like. Well, that doesn't matter compared to what happened.

[Spencer Matthews]

And I'm also not. I'm not chucking our friendship into that category. But when you come at it from that angle, it's kind of like, you know, to your point, imagine telling Theodore that there's a loss in the family or something. Or you know, heaven forbid you lose a child. You know, that happened to my parents. Right. They lost one of their sons. And so I'm assuming that nothing could ever be as bad as that ever again in life. Right. So you lose a friend along the way. I'm not sure it's going to feel like it matters very much. You know, that's kind of spend.

[Jamie Laing]

That's it. That's exactly it. Of course. And I. I can't believe I didn't even put one on one together like that is of course it. Because no wonder you were so blase about so many things. Because it matter. Because I lost my brother.

[Spencer Matthews]

Well, it didn't matter to me.

[Jamie Laing]

No. But that's.

[Spencer Matthews]

And you know, if you think I'm a prick because of that, then so.

[Jamie Laing]

What if something happens so that, that.

[Spencer Matthews]

There was a lot of that in my teenage years. You've really upset this person. I don't care, you know, that kind of hard nosed like I'm just gonna do my thing and if it bothers you, I couldn't care less. Is something that I have moved through now.

[Jamie Laing]

Because I think now because I'm just thinking if I lost man, if I. If I lost Sophie wouldn't care about anything. I just wouldn't. I wouldn't.

[Spencer Matthews]

Wouldn't care potentially ever again.

[Jamie Laing]

No, I don't think I would. I don't. I would find.

[Spencer Matthews]

I'm not, by the way, I'm not trying to find some blanket reason for having behaved the way I behaved in maiden Chelsea and stuff. I'm Just, I'm just drawing attention to the fact that as a young man that was an easy, that was at the forefront of a lot of thoughts. It's like, oh, you know, it, it made it. And, and you know, I spoke to a therapist once about the turbulent drinking, the nature of my drinking. Right. Because at one point it was very.

[Jamie Laing]

How bad was it as well?

[Spencer Matthews]

And heavy.

[Jamie Laing]

How bad was what, what day do you, what day do you remember when even you went, this is bad. When it came to drinking, it got.

[Spencer Matthews]

To a point where I began in the first time, for the first time in my life to, to kind of black out a bit. Like I wouldn't know where I was. Like I'd come to, I'd come to and I'd be like, just in some bar somewhere and I like with people and like sometimes I'd be like, I don't know who that person is. Like, like, you know, like. So I, I, I, so I wouldn't be sure how I got to the place that I'm in. That probably only happened like two or three times in my life.

[Jamie Laing]

Scary.

[Spencer Matthews]

But it happens, it happened towards the very end of my alcohol abuse. And there were times when I, you know, I think I've told you this before. I would drink quite early in the morning. Like, you know, if I could walk past the liquor cabinet and there was nobody looking or nobody around, I might have a sneaky shot of tequila or something at, you know, 9:00am and then I'd go about my day and I'd lie to myself about stuff, you know, so, you know, and even sometimes Vogues would say like, have you, have you had a drink today? And I'd just be like, no. You know, and all of a sudden you've got this, you're lying to the person that you love the most in the world. And it creates this, this slight, albeit slight lack of trust. And all of a sudden you're living this like little lie and you know that it's wrong because you know you shouldn't be drinking spirits in the morning and, and then it begins to have an effect on your self worth, right? Over time, when you compound behavior like that over a long period of time, you start to feel quite worthless because you, you give yourself excuses to do it because you just go, well, you know, I haven't got much on today or you know, oh, this is a, this isn't a busy time of the year for, for me and it doesn't really matter if I make it to this meeting or not, you know, and you Start to take corners and you start to do less. And for me that's like, that's real like the house is burning down mentality and stuff. You know, I, I, I'm a million miles from there now and you know, I'm really thankful that I was able to, to achieve that.

[Jamie Laing]

Going from a position which you were in, which is where you were, you were, you were drinking a lot and you were cutting corners, you're probably lying to yourself, lying to other people and then being in the position you are now, you know, 30 marathons in 30 days. Business clean co business. Great podcast. About to go and take on your next challenge, which is seven Ironmans in seven different continents. How different is your for someone now, right, who's listening? Going like they are. Maybe, maybe they're a casual drinker, but they're struggling with casual drinking or maybe they're a heavy drinker or maybe they're thinking about giving. How different is your life then to it is now mentally everything.

[Spencer Matthews]

I felt like a slave before, whereas now I'm in complete control and.

[Jamie Laing]

It.

[Spencer Matthews]

Stems from an immense feeling of self belief. Like I look at things and think that I can do them, not the other way around. So I'm lucky in that regard. But that comes from small steps regularly taken, right? So again it's compounded behavior. Like you can't go from being a heavy, shameful drinker. I'm calling, this is myself not, you know, I'm not calling anybody listening. A shameful drinker. You can't go from that place in your life to being a world record holding endurance athlete very quickly. You have to make little and consistent changes to your life. You have to walk, you have to get fresh air, you have to put the bottle down, stop drinking. You have to lift weights, you have to go running, you have to, you have to just build some physical strength and mental health will follow as well. I believe they're quite intertwined the, the two things. I feel at my worst when I'm traveling and have a really full schedule and can't go to the gym because.

[Jamie Laing]

Even like me knowing you and being with you now like, like this and we have, like I said, we haven't, we've probably seen each other socially, you know, since the wedding. Socially. Once in two years. Yeah, but being in your presence now, right, and like feeling your energy, it's, it's like your, your energy is, is like calm and considered. You're, you're like listening but also replying like the Spencer that I, that I knew when he was you know, when you were drinking, wouldn't listen, wouldn't, would just think about what you want to do. Your, your energy is a much calmer sort of person to be around, which is, and you must feel that inside as well. You must feel way calmer in yourself.

[Spencer Matthews]

I feel great, mate.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

Like, I, I, I feel, I feel really, really switched on in an interesting growth period of my life. I feel like I'm a really good father, really good husband and that, you know, I found a great balance. I'm not boasting, it's just a big change from, from the last time I saw you. There's been an awful lot of change in, in my life. I'm not interested at all in drama of any kind. I wasn't really interested in drama when we did Made in Chelsea. It's part of, part of the reason I fell out of love with it was just like, oh, my God, like, I don't, I don't care about this person coming in and telling me this dramatic story. I can give a, you know, type thing. And so, so it's kind of, I don't know, it's. There are, I think when you begin to prioritize yourself and your family, things kind of fall into play a bit more easily and certain things fall by the. Is it waistline or waist side?

[Jamie Laing]

Waist side.

[Spencer Matthews]

Waist side, waist, wayside. Nothing to do with your waist.

[Jamie Laing]

Waist side.

[Spencer Matthews]

So nothing to do with your waistline. The side of the way. It's wayline. Christ, I've been saying waistline for ages and like, waistline. God, you could be.

[Jamie Laing]

I got a message from your mum.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Because we started this, like, episode right, talking about what we really want in life. And actually, I think what we all typically want is to make our parents proud and people around us proud. That's what we want to do. Right. So I said to your mum, I said, hi. Hi, Jane. I hope you're well. I have a rather large question for you in ter to feel totally free to say no, but Spen is on my podcast. Could you explain to me why you're. Why and if you're proud of him.

[Spencer Matthews]

I love the. And if. Yeah, imagine she just replies no.

[Jamie Laing]

And she said she first is so happy for you and Sophie. That's very sweet. She said, we've always been proud of Sven. His nature and his ability to strike up a relationship with pretty much anyone. More recently, what he's achieved through his endurance challenges for admirable causes has been remarkable. He continues to surprise people and grow and we couldn't be more delighted with him as a son. We enjoy a close, loving relationship on a daily basis, which makes us happy as parents. We love Spen Vogue and their beautiful children enormously.

[Spencer Matthews]

Oh, that's very nice. I love the fact that she referenced we enjoy a loving relationship on a daily basis, which makes her happy as a parent. Cause I think that is. That's probably. That's probably my biggest concern as a father, that you don't do as a good job and your kids want to be somewhere else, you know, or your kids don't talk to you for advice.

[Jamie Laing]

Has parenting made you understand your parents more?

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, absolutely. Parenting. Parenting is. Is incredible. I mean, it comes with plenty of frustration. It's awesome. But it's hard, you know, And I don't know, it's just. It's. It's very. There's nothing more interesting, in my opinion, than watching the kids kind of like, grow up and develop a character because they're so different. And it's great. And you can have these, like, really awkward, awesome conversations with them now. But, God, you carry a load of shit around the place with you, like, all the time. It's impossible to kind of.

[Jamie Laing]

It's impossible to have these moments. I totally get it. Do you think. Do you think Michael will be proud of you?

[Spencer Matthews]

I believe so. I think he would be. Now, it's funny that you've picked up on my kind of changes in. In character.

[Jamie Laing]

I can feel it. Because I can feel it on you.

[Spencer Matthews]

I can feel it's funny. Like, I will literally. And again, at the risk of sounding so boring, like, you know, I will, I will. You know, the old me would just do whatever. Like, I won't have a double espresso at a certain time of the day because it might affect my sleep. Wow.

[Jamie Laing]

You and your peak were drinking how many espressos a day?

[Spencer Matthews]

Oh, shitloads. But, like, I would also drink, you know, hard alcohol until 4 in the morning.

[Jamie Laing]

Has Vogue been a big part of wanting you to be better?

[Spencer Matthews]

Wanting to be more like? Vogue has had a real impact on me becoming a better person. So I have. I'm making a speech at my brother's 50th tomorrow evening, and in it there's a passage about admiring people and how wonderful it is in life to have people to admire. And when you admire people, typically they influence you. And, you know, over time, again, it's that act of becoming more like the person that you admire that makes you a better person, I think. You know, obviously people just grow up naturally as well. And become more mature. But generally speaking, the people that you choose to admire will shape you in some way.

[Jamie Laing]

Agreed. So what do you admire about Vogue?

[Spencer Matthews]

Her work ethic, her. How loving she is, what a wonderful mother she is. She's. She puts the children first, always. She puts other people first. But I've kind of learned that from her. Like, I, generally speaking, have always put myself first. But she. She will always consider the other person. She's a very empathetic person. She's just a good heart, a good soul.

[Jamie Laing]

She's a great heart. She's a great.

[Spencer Matthews]

She's a. She's a. She's a beautiful person. And she's very funny as well.

[Jamie Laing]

People prefer her to me, so funny.

[Spencer Matthews]

People prefer her to me.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, well, people prefer Sophie to me.

[Spencer Matthews]

I suppose It's a good thing.

[Jamie Laing]

It's a great thing.

[Spencer Matthews]

I've always found the. Your punching. You know when people tell me I'm punching?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

That's a compliment.

[Jamie Laing]

It's always a compliment, but it's bizarre.

[Spencer Matthews]

People say it as an insult.

[Jamie Laing]

It's weird.

[Spencer Matthews]

It's like, you're punching, what, so I'm doing better for myself than I should be. Yeah, I know. Thank you.

[Jamie Laing]

I know 100%.

[Spencer Matthews]

The alternative is like, your wife is shit. Yeah, I know. That's the opposite. It's like, that's an insult.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm laughing that I'm punching with Sophie at the end of all of this. So are we friends?

[Spencer Matthews]

Of course.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay. This has been great.

[Spencer Matthews]

Good. I'm glad. I'm glad that we got to. To clear the air and talk a bit. I mean, I, I, we do talk. So this isn't the first time we've spoken. It's the first time we've spent a couple of hours together.

[Jamie Laing]

This is the first time, and the first time we've actually, like, hashed out in certain ways. Listen, I'm about to go into your podcast untapped, so everyone can go and listen to that one as well. But we like to finish with. With eight questions. Quick fire. You ready for this? Eight. You ready for this?

[Spencer Matthews]

Are you sure you couldn't have made it 10 or just 8 questions?

[Jamie Laing]

Here we go. What's this? What's the saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up?

[Spencer Matthews]

Honestly, anything Gigi says to me. So. Gigi, Gigi, I love all of my. Well, I was about to say I love all my kids equally. It's really hard to love people equally.

[Jamie Laing]

Like.

[Spencer Matthews]

Like it is. It's almost like it is hard to love people equally I think, like, can you love two things exactly the same? Like, say you have two bikes, right? Like, two incredible bikes. You are. You're gonna have a favorite. You will. You will. You will have a favorite.

[Jamie Laing]

Children and bikes is a weird combo.

[Spencer Matthews]

Not really, because, like, I think. I think the love is unconditional unless they murder someone or something. But, like, the love is unconditional, broadly speaking. Yeah. So you'd have to do a lot not to break the chains of the unconditional love, but within love. Like, in any marriage or any relationship, you know, you're all. You always love the person, but it can be, you know, red hot. And it can. It can be. Can be a bit off sometimes, you know, like, it's based around behavior. You know what I mean? You know, they're not always, you know, like, it can be. So I think my.

[Jamie Laing]

Whatever Gigi says to you, that's my favorite kids.

[Spencer Matthews]

My. My. My kids swap for favorite. Sometimes Otto's the favorite, sometimes T is.

[Jamie Laing]

The favorite quite a lot of the time. Gigi.

[Spencer Matthews]

Gigi's favorite. She's my little girl.

[Jamie Laing]

Best compliment anyone's ever given you that.

[Spencer Matthews]

They're proud of me, probably.

[Jamie Laing]

When was the last time you cried?

[Spencer Matthews]

That's what I wanted to talk about. I can tell you when it was.

[Jamie Laing]

When.

[Spencer Matthews]

That was the second example, because it was the thing on the plane. Remember I told you two examples?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

I cried when I left Spain to go to Jordan, when the children were there with Vogue and just before the 30 marathons.

[Jamie Laing]

So a year and a bit ago. You cried?

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah. Yeah, mate. That's. That's recent. That. That. That. That is super recent. Right? So, like, I. I cried. Yeah. But proper crying, though. Like holding Vogue, hugging Vogue, Like. Like crying, crying. And that set her off, and she was crying. And it was so unusual because obviously I just don't cry. But. But I knew that what I was about to take on was, like, a world first, and it was big, and I was gonna be in Jordan. I wouldn't always have connection. I'd miss my kids, and they probably didn't know what I was about to do. And, you know, I hope nothing goes wrong. And I just had all these feelings of. Feelings. I had feelings.

[Jamie Laing]

There you go.

[Spencer Matthews]

I had feelings.

[Jamie Laing]

There you go.

[Spencer Matthews]

Can you imagine? I literally was like, it's great. That felt good to feel.

[Jamie Laing]

What's something you can't let go of?

[Spencer Matthews]

Can't let go of my brother.

[Jamie Laing]

What's your guilty pleasure? Chocolate.

[Spencer Matthews]

Love chocolate. My God. Oh, I've fruit nut.

[Jamie Laing]

You like a fruit Nut.

[Spencer Matthews]

I like a fruit and I like a Tony's chocolone. Sea salt caramel.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. What's your biggest turn off body odor?

[Spencer Matthews]

Turn off in what? In what sense? Just. Just with a person or my wife or. She smells great.

[Jamie Laing]

What turns you on?

[Spencer Matthews]

My wife, nine years as well. We've been together soon. Can you imagine? Nine years. What do you still get turned on?

[Jamie Laing]

What do you like most about yourself?

[Spencer Matthews]

That I. That I have unwavering self belief. I love my. I love my built in natural confidence and I love my ability to look at something and go, I can do that.

[Jamie Laing]

How?

[Spencer Matthews]

How, how can we work towards doing that instead of, I can't do that. What can I do to make myself be able to do that? It's the other way around.

[Jamie Laing]

I love you, buddy. You're the greatest. That was amazing.

[Spencer Matthews]

Cheers. Thanks.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow.

[Jemima (Producer)]

Wow.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, a lot, a lot.

[Jemima (Producer)]

There an absolute masterclass in how bad communication can get so horribly wrong.

[Jamie Laing]

But that's what I learned from this episode today is you just got to communicate that life's too short and unless your friend has really done something terrible that you really can't forgive. Forgiveness and making up and being, you know, life's too short to have feuds and to be miserable with each other. I think.

[Jemima (Producer)]

Well done for doing that today and thank you for sharing it with us. I absolutely loved sitting in on that.

[Jamie Laing]

And thank you to you for constantly listening and enjoying our show. As I said before, if you enjoy this podcast, please subscribe. It does us absolute wonders, I cannot tell you. And also, if you want to get in touch and let us know what you think of the show and what guests we should have next, you can email us greatcompanyamproproductions.co.uk and we'll. And we'll see you next week for another episode of Great Company.

[LinkedIn/Lifelock Advertiser]

I'mma put you on, nephew.

[Jamie Laing]

All right. Welcome to McDonald's. Can I take your order, miss?

[LinkedIn/Lifelock Advertiser]

I've been hitting up McDonald's for years. Is now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.

[Jamie Laing]

Hello, everyone. We're Jamie and Sophie. You may remember us from Newlyweds and then Newlyweds.

[Spencer Matthews]

But now, guys, things are about to get even wilder as we take on our biggest adventure yet. Becoming parents.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, that's right. Newlyweds is now nearly parents. And we're bringing you you the same honest, heartwarming takes on our journey to parenthood.

[Spencer Matthews]

I guess. Join us as we find out what it really means to become a family while trying not to kill each other.

[Jamie Laing]

Get ready for Nearly Parents, your favorite new podcast.

[LinkedIn/Lifelock Advertiser]

Hello listeners.

[Jamie Laing]

Meet Lisa.

[Lisa]

Hey there.

[Jamie Laing]

Lisa runs an online boutique specializing in sustainable fashion. With Acast, she found a whole new way to reach eco conscious shoppers.

[Lisa]

Yep, I run. I recorded a quick ad targeted listeners interested in fashion and sustainability using acast's Audience Attributes targeting feature and set my budget. Before I knew it, people all over were hearing about my shop.

[Jamie Laing]

Now that's a smart way to grow your business. Hey Lisa, what's trending right now?

[Lisa]

Shopping sustainably and my sales, of course.

[Jamie Laing]

Start reaching your ideal audience through podcast ads with Acast. Visit go.acast.com advertise to get started.