Great Company with Jamie Laing

Episode: "Traitors & England Rugby Star, Joe Marler: Being An Alpha Male Came At A Price"

Release Date: October 21, 2025
Guest: Joe Marler (Former England Rugby International, Podcaster)

Episode Overview

In this candid, wide-ranging conversation, Jamie Laing is joined by England rugby star Joe Marler, who opens up about his struggles with mental health, the burdens of toxic masculinity and being an “alpha male” in sport, his love for his wife Daisy, the challenges and joys of fatherhood, coming to terms with his rugby legacy, and finding a new sense of self after retirement. The episode moves fluidly from humour and self-deprecation to deep vulnerability. Joe is as open about his darker periods as he is about the lighter moments, offering rare insight into the personal costs—and growth—that come with being a top-level athlete.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rugby, TV & Identity Outside of the Sport

• Celebrity Traitors Experience (04:13–06:47)
  Joe discusses participating in "Celebrity Traitors" and the cultural reality check of moving from rugby fame to broader celebrity culture, where rugby's fame doesn't always translate (“You come out of it…And then they go, oh, who?…What do you do? And I go, I used to play rugby. And they're like, oh, right, what league or union or what. What is. What sort of thing?” — Joe, 05:22).
• Adjusting to Life After Rugby
  Joe reflects on transitioning from sports star to civilian, touching on imposter syndrome and the struggle to find identity beyond "rugby player."
  • "What am I? What am I? Do you know what I mean? What am I?" — Joe, 45:56

2. Childhood, Insecurity & Early Relationships

• Humour as Defense (07:50–08:24) Joe shares about nicknames growing up (“Chubzy, Wubsy…Fat Boy Fat”), using self-deprecating humour as armor against insecurity.
• Meeting Daisy (11:26–14:44) A heartwarming segment full of adolescent awkwardness and genuine affection, from schooldays to an enduring partnership:
  • "I wouldn't be in this world without her. Like, she's everything." — Joe, 17:25

3. Relationship with Daisy & Family

• Support through Mental Health Battles (17:25–19:12) Joe credits Daisy for her unwavering support:
  • "If you're going to be a professional...you've got to have a level of selfishness...I wouldn't have been able to do that if Daisy wasn't by my side." — Joe, 17:50
  • "She's been there through everything, ups and downs. And she's like...the reason I wake up in the morning." — Joe, 18:38

4. Mental Health: Depression, Burnout & Therapy

• Struggles as an ‘Alpha Male’ (19:18–24:44) Joe traces his long journey with depression—hiding vulnerability, recurrent meltdowns, and the damaging aspects of a hyper-masculine culture.
  • "There was no way I was telling anyone...Wasn't even telling Daisy...Why would I burden her with all of that then?..." — Joe, 23:22
  • "It's the toxic that you go into because you do everything you can to win." — Joe, 28:35
• Breakdowns & Turning Points (32:01–34:00) Details “squirrel gate”—a meltdown that prompted seeking therapy:
  • "I turned the house over, had a complete meltdown, run out on Daisy. And then the ... thoughts of not wanting to be here anymore really took hold of me..." — Joe, 32:04
• Therapy & Antidepressants (36:20–41:55) Joe describes the relief and stigma around seeking help—and pharmaceutical treatment:
  • "It was a non negotiable. It was like, no, I can't behave and be who I had been being at home for the person that I love the most and the kids that I love." — Joe, 34:00
  • "That's what I was like, Humphrey immediately...recommended me taking antidepressants...And immediately I was like, nope, I don't need them. That is so weak. That is weak. Don't, don't. Don't just put me on pills. That's ridiculous." — Joe, 37:31
  • Jamie also opens up about his own experiences: “During that period in lockdown…I took antidepressants.” — Jamie, 39:16

5. Bullying, Toxic Leadership, and Regret

• Alpha Culture & Reflection (27:26–30:53) Joe candidly admits past bullying tendencies as the dark side of team culture:
  • "I could either use my powers for good or evil...Often described as poisonous...Yeah, definitely. I mean, if most the time, that environment, you know, it's almost encouraged…" — Joe, 27:26, 28:19

6. Life After Rugby: Identity, Purpose, and Podcasting

• Loss of Structure & Finding Meaning (43:59–45:56) Joe speaks about the emotional and practical challenges of leaving professional sport:

  • "I really underestimated this. I thought the first three or four months of retirement was great...And then you go, what am I gonna do? What do I do? What's my job?" — Joe, 43:59
  • Jamie: “It’s just finding that new identity, right?” — 43:57

• Podcasting as Healing and Connection
  Joe finds joy and meaning in podcasting, exploring human psychology, and sharing stories.

7. Fatherhood

• Advice & Emotional Impact (52:18–56:35) Joe gives Jamie advice as an expectant father:
  • “My advice to you is...just go full lower. Yeah, just embrace it. Embrace it all. It's like messy as—” — Joe, 54:36
  • “It's obvious, but it completely changed your life in more ways than, you know ... the perspective of it all, the fact that you're now responsible for keeping another human being alive.” — Joe, 55:41

8. Rugby’s Physical Toll & Legacy

• The brutal reality of rugby (56:44–59:37) Joe reflects on the sport’s dangers (mentioning Steve Thompson), the lack of post-career riches (“it’s not like football”) and how family reshaped his attitude towards risk.
  • “It’s a dangerous game...I never did [worry]. And then I had kids and then I sort of semi did...” — Joe, 57:45

9. The World Cup, Never Scoring a Try, and Vulnerability

• Candid Reflections (60:39–66:30) Vivid storytelling from the 2019 World Cup Final, the physicality of scrummaging, and a hilarious, painful anecdote about being denied a chance to score a try in front of his son:
  • “Danny, give me the ball...picks up the ball, goes to pass it, flings it behind my back to Marcus, who slots a drop goal, and we win the game... And I was like...this is bollocks...That was my 92nd cap and I was like...why didn’t you pass me the ball? He went, I didn’t think you’d catch it.” — Joe, 65:06

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Daisy:
  “I wouldn't be in this world without her. Like, she's everything. Like, she's incredible...She's the reason I wake up in the morning to go and have an adventure for that day with her and the kids.” (Joe, 17:25–18:42)

• On Mental Health:
  “There was no way I was telling anyone...Wasn't even telling Daisy...Why would I burden her with all of that then? Why would I tell anyone at work? I...meant to be this strong alpha at work…You show no weakness...” (Joe, 23:22) “I turned the house over, had a complete meltdown, run out on Daisy. And then the sort of...thoughts of not wanting to be here anymore...That was the moment...I need help. I need some proper help here.” (Joe, 32:04)

• On Therapy:
  “I was so scared going there...It was a non negotiable. It was like, no, I can't behave and be who I had been being at home for the person that I love the most and the kids...” (Joe, 34:00)

• On Regret and Growth:
  "Often described as poisonous...I could either use my powers for good or evil...I was definitely a bully at times..." (Joe, 28:19; 27:26)

• On Post-Retirement Identity:
  “I really underestimated this... And then you go, what am I gonna do? What do I do? What’s my job?...What am I?...I'm a dad, I'm a husband...but what, what am I?” (Joe, 43:59, 45:56)

• Humour & Heart:
  "My wife still recalls it. Now she's like, okay, now do you remember when you used to have three or five flapjacks at lunchtime?...I spent it all on flapjacks. So I could only afford R. Kelly's album and a banana for her." (Joe, 11:17, 13:53)

• Advice for Jamie as a Soon-to-be Dad:
  "Just embrace it all. It's like messy as..." (Joe, 54:36)

Important Segments & Timestamps

• [04:13] – Joe on Celebrity Traitors and fame outside rugby
• [07:50] – Childhood insecurities and self-deprecation
• [11:26] – Love story with Daisy
• [17:25] – How Daisy supports Joe through everything
• [19:18–24:44] – Mental health, meltdowns, and the “alpha male” trap
• [27:26–30:53] – Toxic team environments and regret
• [32:01–34:00] – “Squirrel gate,” breakdown, first therapy session
• [36:20–41:55] – Therapy, medication, and Jamie’s own admissions
• [43:59–45:56] – Post-rugby identity and meaning
• [52:18–56:35] – Honest talk about fatherhood
• [56:44–59:37] – The physical cost of rugby; feared injuries
• [60:39–66:30] – World Cup Final memories, legacy, and the agony of never scoring

Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is raw, direct, and honest, often laced with self-mockery and laughter. Joe’s willingness to discuss his darkest moments—including wanting to not be here anymore—offers rare, poignant insight into the hidden struggles of public figures and elite athletes. Jamie’s openness about his own mental health experiences adds to the sense of camaraderie and normalization.

Key Takeaway:

Talking openly about mental health—especially among men—is courageous and lifesaving. The support of loved ones, honest friendships, and professional help make all the difference.

Final 8 Quickfire Questions (Selected Highlights)

• Saying that cheers Joe up?
  “This too shall pass.” — Joe, 67:21

• Best compliment?
  "You got great feet." — Joe, 67:36

• What scares you most about yourself?
  “Myself. Yeah. Myself scares me most about myself.” — Joe, 67:41

• Guilty pleasure?
  “Judi Dench...Valencia ice lollies.” — Joe, 69:14

• What do you like most about yourself?
  “I've got a good back.” — Joe, 71:16
  (Followed by Jamie: “I reckon you’re a good dad.”)

For Listeners Who Missed the Episode:

If you want a blend of proper banter, raw vulnerability, and practical wisdom around resilience, mental health, and fatherhood, this episode is a must-listen.