Traitors & England Rugby Star, JOE MARLER: Being An Alpha Male Came At A Price

Summary

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Great Company with Jamie Laing

Episode: "Traitors & England Rugby Star, Joe Marler: Being An Alpha Male Came At A Price"

Release Date: October 21, 2025
Guest: Joe Marler (Former England Rugby International, Podcaster)

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Episode Overview

In this candid, wide-ranging conversation, Jamie Laing is joined by England rugby star Joe Marler, who opens up about his struggles with mental health, the burdens of toxic masculinity and being an “alpha male” in sport, his love for his wife Daisy, the challenges and joys of fatherhood, coming to terms with his rugby legacy, and finding a new sense of self after retirement. The episode moves fluidly from humour and self-deprecation to deep vulnerability. Joe is as open about his darker periods as he is about the lighter moments, offering rare insight into the personal costs—and growth—that come with being a top-level athlete.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rugby, TV & Identity Outside of the Sport

• Celebrity Traitors Experience (04:13–06:47)
  Joe discusses participating in "Celebrity Traitors" and the cultural reality check of moving from rugby fame to broader celebrity culture, where rugby's fame doesn't always translate (“You come out of it…And then they go, oh, who?…What do you do? And I go, I used to play rugby. And they're like, oh, right, what league or union or what. What is. What sort of thing?” — Joe, 05:22).
• Adjusting to Life After Rugby
  Joe reflects on transitioning from sports star to civilian, touching on imposter syndrome and the struggle to find identity beyond "rugby player."
  • "What am I? What am I? Do you know what I mean? What am I?" — Joe, 45:56

2. Childhood, Insecurity & Early Relationships

• Humour as Defense (07:50–08:24) Joe shares about nicknames growing up (“Chubzy, Wubsy…Fat Boy Fat”), using self-deprecating humour as armor against insecurity.
• Meeting Daisy (11:26–14:44) A heartwarming segment full of adolescent awkwardness and genuine affection, from schooldays to an enduring partnership:
  • "I wouldn't be in this world without her. Like, she's everything." — Joe, 17:25

3. Relationship with Daisy & Family

• Support through Mental Health Battles (17:25–19:12) Joe credits Daisy for her unwavering support:
  • "If you're going to be a professional...you've got to have a level of selfishness...I wouldn't have been able to do that if Daisy wasn't by my side." — Joe, 17:50
  • "She's been there through everything, ups and downs. And she's like...the reason I wake up in the morning." — Joe, 18:38

4. Mental Health: Depression, Burnout & Therapy

• Struggles as an ‘Alpha Male’ (19:18–24:44) Joe traces his long journey with depression—hiding vulnerability, recurrent meltdowns, and the damaging aspects of a hyper-masculine culture.
  • "There was no way I was telling anyone...Wasn't even telling Daisy...Why would I burden her with all of that then?..." — Joe, 23:22
  • "It's the toxic that you go into because you do everything you can to win." — Joe, 28:35
• Breakdowns & Turning Points (32:01–34:00) Details “squirrel gate”—a meltdown that prompted seeking therapy:
  • "I turned the house over, had a complete meltdown, run out on Daisy. And then the ... thoughts of not wanting to be here anymore really took hold of me..." — Joe, 32:04
• Therapy & Antidepressants (36:20–41:55) Joe describes the relief and stigma around seeking help—and pharmaceutical treatment:
  • "It was a non negotiable. It was like, no, I can't behave and be who I had been being at home for the person that I love the most and the kids that I love." — Joe, 34:00
  • "That's what I was like, Humphrey immediately...recommended me taking antidepressants...And immediately I was like, nope, I don't need them. That is so weak. That is weak. Don't, don't. Don't just put me on pills. That's ridiculous." — Joe, 37:31
  • Jamie also opens up about his own experiences: “During that period in lockdown…I took antidepressants.” — Jamie, 39:16

5. Bullying, Toxic Leadership, and Regret

• Alpha Culture & Reflection (27:26–30:53) Joe candidly admits past bullying tendencies as the dark side of team culture:
  • "I could either use my powers for good or evil...Often described as poisonous...Yeah, definitely. I mean, if most the time, that environment, you know, it's almost encouraged…" — Joe, 27:26, 28:19

6. Life After Rugby: Identity, Purpose, and Podcasting

• Loss of Structure & Finding Meaning (43:59–45:56) Joe speaks about the emotional and practical challenges of leaving professional sport:

  • "I really underestimated this. I thought the first three or four months of retirement was great...And then you go, what am I gonna do? What do I do? What's my job?" — Joe, 43:59
  • Jamie: “It’s just finding that new identity, right?” — 43:57

• Podcasting as Healing and Connection
  Joe finds joy and meaning in podcasting, exploring human psychology, and sharing stories.

7. Fatherhood

• Advice & Emotional Impact (52:18–56:35) Joe gives Jamie advice as an expectant father:
  • “My advice to you is...just go full lower. Yeah, just embrace it. Embrace it all. It's like messy as—” — Joe, 54:36
  • “It's obvious, but it completely changed your life in more ways than, you know ... the perspective of it all, the fact that you're now responsible for keeping another human being alive.” — Joe, 55:41

8. Rugby’s Physical Toll & Legacy

• The brutal reality of rugby (56:44–59:37) Joe reflects on the sport’s dangers (mentioning Steve Thompson), the lack of post-career riches (“it’s not like football”) and how family reshaped his attitude towards risk.
  • “It’s a dangerous game...I never did [worry]. And then I had kids and then I sort of semi did...” — Joe, 57:45

9. The World Cup, Never Scoring a Try, and Vulnerability

• Candid Reflections (60:39–66:30) Vivid storytelling from the 2019 World Cup Final, the physicality of scrummaging, and a hilarious, painful anecdote about being denied a chance to score a try in front of his son:
  • “Danny, give me the ball...picks up the ball, goes to pass it, flings it behind my back to Marcus, who slots a drop goal, and we win the game... And I was like...this is bollocks...That was my 92nd cap and I was like...why didn’t you pass me the ball? He went, I didn’t think you’d catch it.” — Joe, 65:06

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Daisy:
  “I wouldn't be in this world without her. Like, she's everything. Like, she's incredible...She's the reason I wake up in the morning to go and have an adventure for that day with her and the kids.” (Joe, 17:25–18:42)

• On Mental Health:
  “There was no way I was telling anyone...Wasn't even telling Daisy...Why would I burden her with all of that then? Why would I tell anyone at work? I...meant to be this strong alpha at work…You show no weakness...” (Joe, 23:22) “I turned the house over, had a complete meltdown, run out on Daisy. And then the sort of...thoughts of not wanting to be here anymore...That was the moment...I need help. I need some proper help here.” (Joe, 32:04)

• On Therapy:
  “I was so scared going there...It was a non negotiable. It was like, no, I can't behave and be who I had been being at home for the person that I love the most and the kids...” (Joe, 34:00)

• On Regret and Growth:
  "Often described as poisonous...I could either use my powers for good or evil...I was definitely a bully at times..." (Joe, 28:19; 27:26)

• On Post-Retirement Identity:
  “I really underestimated this... And then you go, what am I gonna do? What do I do? What’s my job?...What am I?...I'm a dad, I'm a husband...but what, what am I?” (Joe, 43:59, 45:56)

• Humour & Heart:
  "My wife still recalls it. Now she's like, okay, now do you remember when you used to have three or five flapjacks at lunchtime?...I spent it all on flapjacks. So I could only afford R. Kelly's album and a banana for her." (Joe, 11:17, 13:53)

• Advice for Jamie as a Soon-to-be Dad:
  "Just embrace it all. It's like messy as..." (Joe, 54:36)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• [04:13] – Joe on Celebrity Traitors and fame outside rugby
• [07:50] – Childhood insecurities and self-deprecation
• [11:26] – Love story with Daisy
• [17:25] – How Daisy supports Joe through everything
• [19:18–24:44] – Mental health, meltdowns, and the “alpha male” trap
• [27:26–30:53] – Toxic team environments and regret
• [32:01–34:00] – “Squirrel gate,” breakdown, first therapy session
• [36:20–41:55] – Therapy, medication, and Jamie’s own admissions
• [43:59–45:56] – Post-rugby identity and meaning
• [52:18–56:35] – Honest talk about fatherhood
• [56:44–59:37] – The physical cost of rugby; feared injuries
• [60:39–66:30] – World Cup Final memories, legacy, and the agony of never scoring

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Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is raw, direct, and honest, often laced with self-mockery and laughter. Joe’s willingness to discuss his darkest moments—including wanting to not be here anymore—offers rare, poignant insight into the hidden struggles of public figures and elite athletes. Jamie’s openness about his own mental health experiences adds to the sense of camaraderie and normalization.

Key Takeaway:

Talking openly about mental health—especially among men—is courageous and lifesaving. The support of loved ones, honest friendships, and professional help make all the difference.

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Final 8 Quickfire Questions (Selected Highlights)

• Saying that cheers Joe up?
  “This too shall pass.” — Joe, 67:21

• Best compliment?
  "You got great feet." — Joe, 67:36

• What scares you most about yourself?
  “Myself. Yeah. Myself scares me most about myself.” — Joe, 67:41

• Guilty pleasure?
  “Judi Dench...Valencia ice lollies.” — Joe, 69:14

• What do you like most about yourself?
  “I've got a good back.” — Joe, 71:16
  (Followed by Jamie: “I reckon you’re a good dad.”)

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode:

If you want a blend of proper banter, raw vulnerability, and practical wisdom around resilience, mental health, and fatherhood, this episode is a must-listen.

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Transcript

[Joe Marler]

Coming up in this episode of Great Company. I turned the house over. I had a complete meltdown. The thoughts of not wanting to be here anymore really took hold of me. Joe the toxic that you go into because you do everything you can to win, you do everything you can to be number one. The damage was already done. Hi, I'm Joe Mahler and I'm in Great Company. Good title by Joe Marlow. Beautiful pass, Joe Marlow.

[Jamie Laing]

Rugby is a brutal sport in terms of, like, on the body.

[Joe Marler]

Right. It's a dangerous game. Yeah. This lad got tackled from behind and his whole leg snapped. My son, he turned around and said, I'll never respect you as Raghu Kha, man.

[Jamie Laing]

You're happy that you had your career, that you did.

[Joe Marler]

I had a rocky career, often described as poisonous.

[Jamie Laing]

Do you think you were a bit of a bully at times?

[Joe Marler]

Oh, yeah, definitely. I could either use my powers for good or evil.

[Jamie Laing]

You've just done Celebrity traitors. I feel like you win it. How much do you love Daisy?

[Joe Marler]

I wouldn't be in this world without her. She's everything. She's incredible. I can't behave and be who I had been being at home for, the person that I loved the most. I went straight to the doctor and the first thing he asked me was, whoa. I just went, fuck. I still have that little bit of like, what am I? Do you know what I mean? What am I? Did you take antidepressants?

[Jamie Laing]

I've never spoken about this.

[Joe Marler]

Oh.

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[Joe Marler]

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[Zoe Cosby]

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[Jamie Laing]

Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Laing and this is Great Company. Guys, welcome back to Great Company. I cannot wait for this episode. As you can see from the trailer, it's just really exciting. Right, before we start, just a couple things. This is a really amazing episode with Joe. He's currently on the UK Traitors, which is really, really exciting. If you've been watching it, you'll probably fall in love with him. And this episode delivers on so many more things. You really understand who the true Joe Mahler is. And the second thing I can ask before we start is if you like this content. If you enjoy what we're doing at Great Company, if you can click that subscribe button, it's completely free. It does us absolute wonders. If you can do that one thing for us, I'll be forever grateful. Okay, Enjoy this episode of Great Company with Joe Mahler.

[Joe Marler]

Hi, I'm Joe Mahler and I'm in Great Company.

[Jamie Laing]

You know, I'm a good rugby player.

[Joe Marler]

You've told me you were a good, very good player. You taught. You've told me that. All right. I'm an excellent chagger.

[Jamie Laing]

You're not. You've just done Celebrity Traitors.

[Joe Marler]

Yes, I have. I have done that. I'm trying to navigate this. I. I'm allowed to say that.

[Jamie Laing]

You're allowed to say that?

[Joe Marler]

Yes, I've done.

[Jamie Laing]

You can't say anything about the show, which I totally get, which is.

[Joe Marler]

I. I don't want a show. Do you watch Traitors?

[Jamie Laing]

I love it, man.

[Joe Marler]

How good is it?

[Jamie Laing]

Great.

[Joe Marler]

It's so good.

[Jamie Laing]

You're with a couple of my buddies. Paloma. Nico.

[Joe Marler]

Are you friends with a man?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Marler]

Nico.

[Jamie Laing]

Nick is great, great guy.

[Joe Marler]

The whole cast, mate.

[Jamie Laing]

Like Stephen Fry, Bonkers Patty. So smart.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, he's really smart. He's really smart.

[Jamie Laing]

Jonathan Ross.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, he's smart. Nice guy.

[Jamie Laing]

I can't wait to watch it. You don't. I reckon.

[Joe Marler]

What? I. I felt incredibly uncomfortable doing it.

[Jamie Laing]

Why?

[Joe Marler]

Because you think in the rugby world. Yeah, you go, like, rugby's massive. Like, you. You're in it. You're like this. This is a big thing, you know Everyone knows about rugby. You think it's, like, massive. You come out of it, you go into, like, a normal world. And then they go, oh, who?

[Jamie Laing]

Who are you? Then?

[Joe Marler]

What do you do? And I go, I used to play rugby. And they're like, oh, right, what league or union or what. What is. What sort of thing? And I go. And it was really good because it was like, mate, the. Like, the world does not know. Do you know what I mean? Have a bit of perspective on it. But, yeah, getting confused for being like, the sound guy or in charge of the props was many of my highlights.

[Jamie Laing]

It was one of the best experiences.

[Joe Marler]

For a fan of the show to watch it. And then when I got the opportunity to go on it, I was like, yeah, like, please do. And it didn't disappoint. Like, it doing it was just some of the most fun I've ever had. It was just bonkers. I can't wait for you to.

[Jamie Laing]

I can't see it. I can't wait to see it.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

I feel like you win it if you. I feel like you might win if you were.

[Joe Marler]

I feel like you win it if you suck. If it was offered to you for the next series.

[Jamie Laing]

I do in a heartbeat.

[Joe Marler]

Would you. 100. Would you. What other ones have you. Have you done any others?

[Jamie Laing]

Been offered a few, but I just show off.

[Joe Marler]

But. But what, you preferred. You prefer invading people's. Yeah. Privacy rather than the world seeing you?

[Jamie Laing]

I turn the mirror on me. But. But I. I don't think I would do. I'm a celeb. No, don't think I'd do that.

[Joe Marler]

Camel. No, good for you.

[Jamie Laing]

I would eat the camel. I did Strictly.

[Joe Marler]

Oh, yes. How did you win that? Oh, you got to the fight. Who'd you lose to?

[Jamie Laing]

Bill Bailey, comedian.

[Joe Marler]

Why is that funny?

[Jamie Laing]

Because it's Bill Bailey.

[Joe Marler]

What's that? Can he not die?

[Jamie Laing]

He's got a bald head with a mullet.

[Joe Marler]

And that means bald head. People with mullets can't dance, Is that what you're implying? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, he could dance because he beat you. Yeah, he was. Or are you saying it was rigged?

[Jamie Laing]

No, it wasn't rigged.

[Joe Marler]

So you'd do. If Celebrity Trait is season two, you're like, get me in there. I would love to do that.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

You should tell me about your childhood.

[Jamie Laing]

Did you have nicknames growing up? Come on, give it to me. Give it to me.

[Joe Marler]

Come on. Chubzy, Wubsy.

[Jamie Laing]

That was it.

[Joe Marler]

Fat Boy, Fat Boy, Fat.

[Jamie Laing]

Fat Boy. Fat. Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

You know, like Fat Boy Slim. But there was no slim, just Fat Boy Fat.

[Jamie Laing]

Who was calling you that?

[Joe Marler]

Just the world.

[Jamie Laing]

The world.

[Joe Marler]

Actually, most. Most the time it was me. You know, you get in there first. You know, you talk about your inverted nipples because you got massive moobs first. Because then that puts up a barrier of defense. Like, if then anyone attacks me for any of my faults, I'm like, yeah, I've already stated them to you. Thank you. It's easier to deal with.

[Jamie Laing]

You're like Eminem in the rap battle.

[Joe Marler]

What? The flying is that reference? That's true. Oh, yes.

[Jamie Laing]

In 8 mile at the end.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah. I am a redneck hillbilly.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. I'm a regnet hillbilly.

[Joe Marler]

What's that bloke who. His mum.

[Jamie Laing]

Jim did my mum and Jim did mum.

[Joe Marler]

Clickety clack, clack clack. Clickety clack, wiggity whack, whack, whack.

[Jamie Laing]

Sit in the back.

[Joe Marler]

Your real name's Clarence. He went to private school.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Marler]

He's got a real nice home. And his mum and dad are together. What the fuck?

[Jamie Laing]

Everybody in the three. One, three. Put your motherfucking hands up and follow me.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, I'd like to leave. Can we call it. Is that, like, the quickest episode you've ever done?

[Jamie Laing]

No. We got a long way to go. Middle names. William, George, Joseph or Joe. I think Joseph.

[Joe Marler]

What do you want to call me?

[Jamie Laing]

Joseph William George Marler.

[Joe Marler]

You can call me Jose if you like.

[Jamie Laing]

Born 1990.

[Joe Marler]

Wow.

[Jamie Laing]

In Eastbourne.

[Joe Marler]

What part?

[Jamie Laing]

The west part.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah. What part of the west part?

[Jamie Laing]

Near the Eastbourne Rugby Club.

[Joe Marler]

You're right, actually. Yeah. Well played.

[Jamie Laing]

Don't worry about it.

[Joe Marler]

Okay.

[Jamie Laing]

How was your childhood? Because. Because you're. You're one of these people, right, Who I reckon you felt like, like you said before, with your insecurities. You would call out your insecurities to begin with because perhaps you were an insecure child.

[Joe Marler]

Perhaps. Were you? I don't know what's an insecure child?

[Jamie Laing]

Because I think we all are a little bit insecure as kids.

[Joe Marler]

So aren't they just children?

[Jamie Laing]

No, no, no. Because most children don't have consciousness, really. Like, I remember when I was a kid, I said this before. I remember when I used to be in school, I used to get into a queue. There was hot food and cold food. Right. At my school, right? So you could have.

[Joe Marler]

It's a posh school. It's a posh school.

[Jamie Laing]

Nice. You could have a salad or you could have hot food, like a lasagna wow. Right. Hell, I know. And I used to get into lasagna. Las. It was normally like a lasagna or something like that. And I used to get into the queue and see who would follow me into the queue. Cuz I was conscious of like popularity.

[Joe Marler]

Wow. For what purpose? Who would follow you in the queue? And then you'd be like, they my sort of people. Yeah. I should hang around with them more.

[Jamie Laing]

No, I thought you want. I wanted to gain popularity so I'd see who would follow me to see who was like part of my gang almost.

[Joe Marler]

Did no one follow you?

[Jamie Laing]

A few people did.

[Joe Marler]

And are they still your friends?

[Jamie Laing]

No. So the purpose of the validation at that moment.

[Joe Marler]

All right, okay. You're quite. You're sharp. You're really sharp. And you started this as a kid. Yeah, okay. Yeah. No, I was just deciding how many flapjacks I was gonna have. Usually it was between three and five. Always, always stacked up, mate. Loved a flapjack.

[Jamie Laing]

You would have three to five flapjacks.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah. My wife still recalls it. Now she's like, okay, now do you remember when you used to have three or five flapjacks at lunchtime? Right, Yeah, I have a flapjack now. Please.

[Jamie Laing]

This is Daisy.

[Joe Marler]

Daisy, my wife. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

You were at school with Daisy.

[Joe Marler]

We went to school together. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

When did you first kiss?

[Joe Marler]

Wow.

[Jamie Laing]

Come on, give it to me. Come on, Joe.

[Joe Marler]

When did we first kiss?

[Jamie Laing]

When did you first kiss? Because when did you first meet? How old?

[Joe Marler]

We were first together at school when I was 14. We met on 13, 14 year 8 camp we used to go to.

[Jamie Laing]

And what do you think?

[Joe Marler]

I went, she's my girl at 14. She is my lady and I am her man. She drives me crazy. And I'm not called Dan.

[Jamie Laing]

Wait, when you saw her. When you saw her?

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

So you're 13, 14 years old. You're feeling like a little bit like whatever it is. What's the first thing you said to her?

[Joe Marler]

What was I feeling?

[Jamie Laing]

Why you were feeling insecure. You were probably feeling. Because you call yourself fat boy fat.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

You had inverted nipples.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, I did. They're not. Just checking.

[Jamie Laing]

So you were starting to go a.

[Joe Marler]

Bit more inverted now.

[Jamie Laing]

So you were feeling shy, all these things. And then you see, Dave, I was never.

[Joe Marler]

I was never shy.

[Jamie Laing]

Well, you must have been a little bit shy.

[Joe Marler]

No, I was never shy.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay.

[Joe Marler]

I was always outgoing and sort of narcissistic. Make it all about me. And yeah, Daisy, we're part of the same group of friends. And I was like, that's my ltp. That's my long term plan. Come on.

[Jamie Laing]

Then you did that.

[Joe Marler]

I just loved her. She was great. We had gotten so well and then she. Yeah, and then she dumped me because I was too fat. And I remember putting on MSN messenger after she dumped me after about three months, which is weird that she dumped me. I think it was just after Valentine's Day where I bought her a R. Kelly's Greatest Hits, which obviously hasn't aged well. At the time it was a decent record.

[Jamie Laing]

Ignition. No.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Ignition.

[Joe Marler]

Probably the world's greatest. Yeah, we probably don't sing them now. No, we should probably not sing any of his songs because he's a massive helmet.

[Jamie Laing]

But back then. Back then he was without any of the context.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah. I gave her R. Kelly's album and a banana. And that's not a euphemism. Like it was an actual banana.

[Jamie Laing]

She went and bought her R. Kelly's album.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have same sort of money as other kids, mate. I spent it all on flapjacks. So I could only afford R. Kelly's album and a banana for her.

[Jamie Laing]

And then.

[Joe Marler]

And she dumped me. And then she. And then I put Ain't no sunshine when she's gone. That got you that Monday.

[Jamie Laing]

Like it.

[Joe Marler]

And then she went with the rival leader of. We could. This is. We're dressing it up as. Here we go.

[Jamie Laing]

See, now we're going.

[Joe Marler]

We're dressing it up like Romeo and Juliet.

[Jamie Laing]

Or she went with the Capulets.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, she went with the rival leader of.

[Jamie Laing]

Of the same school.

[Joe Marler]

So there was like two big boy gangs in our year.

[Jamie Laing]

See, sorry, hang on a second. I was literally talking about popularity and, like, who would be in your team. And then you've gone straight on to talk about that. There were two gangs at your school.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, they're not real gangs. I'm dressing up like story time. There was like this gang where, like, we all hung out together with boys, all that lot. There was this gang and then we'd often have, like, fights. At school. Yeah, at school there was a big one. Where did you ever play Bulldog?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

And explain what Bulldog is.

[Jamie Laing]

This is what people don't know.

[Joe Marler]

Well, it's because it's not the dog. Yeah. Why is it called Bulldog? Don't know what came first, the game or the dog. The dog.

[Jamie Laing]

100.

[Joe Marler]

Because, you know, so much like a fountain.

[Jamie Laing]

It would have done 100.

[Joe Marler]

Okay, so someone's in the middle. Correct. All the other people at one end. Yeah. You got. You got to run past the Guy in the middle and touch the other side of the hall without getting tagged.

[Jamie Laing]

Exactly.

[Joe Marler]

PE teacher pretty much knew that these two groups didn't get on. There was always like friction. You could almost like tear up, like, I'm gonna do this one then. And then it just started. Were you.

[Jamie Laing]

Were you big guys? Why were you big?

[Joe Marler]

Oh, yeah, I had inverted nipples. I was always big. I always used to mark it as, oh, it's my 12th birthday. I'm 12 stone 13. I'm 13 stone now for. It just went up like that.

[Jamie Laing]

Just keep going up.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, I'm 35 now, but it's not 35. It might as well be now it's moved on from stone because that's just to bmis. So I'm actually. I'm younger than my bmi.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, we're killing a jo.

[Joe Marler]

No, no, that's not good.

[Jamie Laing]

That is good.

[Joe Marler]

I'm younger than my bmi.

[Jamie Laing]

Oh, no, that's not good.

[Joe Marler]

It's not good.

[Jamie Laing]

Your body fat percentage is over 35.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. That's all right. Is it? No, that's okay. We can work on that.

[Joe Marler]

Okay. Not sure how I feel sitting in the sweet Factory.

[Jamie Laing]

Wait, so. So you're playing Bulldog? PE teacher knows there's going to be a scuffle or something's going to go on. What happens next?

[Joe Marler]

Oh, it's just a massive brawl. It was great. Just a full on, like, school fight. It was great. And she was with him for pretty much all the school. And like, I. We secretly were friends in, like, leisure and tourism or other classes that we worked. She couldn't be seen with me in public. Couldn't he? Look, do you know what I mean? And yet we had the same group of friends, so it was always tough with that one. And then I went off. Found rugby. Well, yeah, signed for Quinn's, moved to London for four years. But we always kept in touch. And anytime I'd come home for the weekend, the same group of friends would go out and then we were just like it.

[Jamie Laing]

Same, same group of friends now.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, same group of friends now.

[Jamie Laing]

Man, that's amazing. Yeah, Friendships are everything. How much do you love Daisy? Give it to me.

[Joe Marler]

I wouldn't be here. Like, not. I don't mean that. The Sweet Factory, but I mean, it would be as well. But I wouldn't be in this world without her. Like, she's. She's everything. Like, she's incredible. Like, for me to. If you're going to be a professional, like, athlete. In fact, I was a rugby player, not an Athlete. If you're going to be a professional sports person in. In any sport, you've got to have a level of selfishness.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

Like, drive that commitment. It's like you've got to do everything. You. And I wouldn't have been able to do that if Daisy wasn't by my side. Like, half the year, I'm not there. I'm away doing rugby all the time. She's there looking after the kids, looking after everything at home. And just. I wouldn't have been able to do any of that without. Although people do say, well, actually, if you didn't have her, you then wouldn't have had kids. And you could have done all of that. You just wouldn't have had it. You wouldn't have had as much stress, actually.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

Sometimes people reverse it. Go. It might have been easier. Like, you piece of. That's my response to them. She's every. I love her to pieces, mate. She's. She's been there through everything, ups and downs. And she's like.

[Jamie Laing]

She is.

[Joe Marler]

The reason I wake up in the morning to go and have an adventure for that day with her and. And the kids. So I don't think I say it enough publicly because I never had. She doesn't need that. But you asked the question and you made out. We were friends, so I thought I'd tell you the truth. And yet you've put a microphone in front of it to record that. Cut that bit then, Helen. Cheers.

[Jamie Laing]

No, we're not going to cut that.

[Joe Marler]

Okay. Yeah, but you won't.

[Jamie Laing]

That's. That, man. That's amazing.

[Joe Marler]

Hmm. Very lucky.

[Jamie Laing]

You spoke a lot about when you went through a tricky time, when you had. When you.

[Joe Marler]

How are you gonna navigate this one? I like it. I like it with depression. Yeah. Yeah. Mental health issues.

[Jamie Laing]

Because I think what you spoke about is how Daisy helped you through your toughest times.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And that really shows a real teammate when they can help you through your best times but also be there for your worst times. What happened? What talked me through this? What happened?

[Joe Marler]

I. I had a rocky career at times. 2016, I had a meltdown.

[Jamie Laing]

But don't brush over it. Tell me that.

[Joe Marler]

No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm just giving you the chronological.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay.

[Joe Marler]

2016, there was a summer tour to Australia with England, and I bailed on that because I remember driving down to the training camp in Brighton and just balling my eyes out on the way there. Like, what the going on here?

[Jamie Laing]

You just.

[Joe Marler]

Just cry my eyes out. And then I got There, pulled myself together, did a bit of the training, but faked an injury so I couldn't be asked. I was like, I don't want to be here. And Eddie Jones was coach at the time. And then I asked him for a coffee that evening when I met him, and I said, mate, I can't do this anymore. I'm done. And he was like, yeah, eyes don't lie, mate. And I went, what? He went, eyes don't lie. I went, what do you mean? I can see it in your eyes, mate. You're just not with it. Like, I said, I can't come on tour. I don't know what I'm gonna do.

[Jamie Laing]

I didn't realize it was that, like, you just. You just felt.

[Joe Marler]

No. I was like, enough's enough. I've had enough. And he was like, look, mate, can we give you any support and help you in this week before making a final decision? I was like, no, I think it's done now, mate. It's like, okay, mate, well, let us know how you get on if there's anything we can do. All the best. And then when went away from there and just had a massive, like, weight off my shoulders, I was like, brilliant. Like, I'm done. It was rugby, all this issues, like, stressing rugby. I couldn't handle it. And then that summer, like, at the summer off, spent time with Daisy and the kids loved it.

[Jamie Laing]

What were you thinking about future at that point? Because you're.

[Joe Marler]

You're.

[Jamie Laing]

You're the peak of your career. You're not even at the peak.

[Joe Marler]

You're just.

[Jamie Laing]

You're killing it. I mean, you're playing England. You're a holiday.

[Joe Marler]

I wasn't really thinking about the future. I was thinking about then and how I was feeling then. I was like, right, I need to I get rid of something. Because this. I've been feeling like crying to work all the time, feeling, like, really down about things. And I had no reason or no obvious reason to be down about. I was a professional rugby player. I had a wife and two kids. Like, what stresses did I have? And I was like, maybe rugby is the stress of that. It's like getting to me too much.

[Jamie Laing]

Always trying to find that reason. Always when you feel that, yeah, yeah, why am I feeling this way?

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, yeah, I shouldn't feel like this or that. But so. And then it was fine. Like, sort of patch up, carried on, started to feel better, and then got back in the. Eddie welcomed me back in the England team the following season. So lucky for that. And then it Sort of started to rear its head again. My feelings going into work every morning. Cry my eyes out for no reason on the way.

[Jamie Laing]

What did it feel like, Joe, though? Because, like. Because the reason why I'm interested in this, right, is because it's two blokes sitting across each other and blokes don't really talk about this.

[Joe Marler]

But.

[Jamie Laing]

No, they actually generally don't.

[Joe Marler]

No, they don't. And you're a issue.

[Jamie Laing]

It's mad you go.

[Joe Marler]

Because immediately everything changed. We shouldn't talk about crying. That's what girls do.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, we shouldn't.

[Joe Marler]

We shouldn't talk about our emotion. That's girl. Like they need us to be strong.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

Go and collect wood for fire and like, exactly that. But yes, they do. Or they can also go and get wood themselves or we can go and get wood together or we can do both. Yeah, like. Because we deal with shit the same way they do. You know what I mean? But we just need to get better at doing it.

[Jamie Laing]

So when you're in that moment when you're crying on your way to work, who are you telling?

[Joe Marler]

No one. There was no way I was telling anyone.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

Wasn't even telling. I wouldn't tell Daisy. Tell Daisy or anyone at home. Why would I burden her with all of that then? Why would I tell anyone at work? I meant you're meant to be this strong alpha at work. We knocking six bells of out of each other. You don't want someone who's just crying and wussing out all the time. That's not. That's not. I. It was like you'd show no weakness and that. And that's why it was even more. I was like, what the am I doing? Like all these voices in my head, like, what are you doing? All this. Just get on with it. Stop. What? You've got nothing to moan about. What's going on? But I couldn't. I couldn't help the way I was feeling. I was feeling that and I was like, oh, what do I do with that? And then it sort of history Repeated itself in 2018. Went on England tour, went to knock it on the head again. It's a combination of not understanding what was going on with me and just assuming it was the pressures of international rugby and all that, like. And yet when I played international rugby, I loved it. I didn't really. You pressure's sort of made up. It's a made up thing in your head, isn't it? Yeah, like you feel the pressure, but yeah, I just loved it. I didn't really feel the pressure. It was intense, but it was like living the dream here. I love it. Running out at 85, 000 people at Twickenham.

[Jamie Laing]

Just.

[Joe Marler]

This is great. But I was like, maybe that's, you know, not spend enough time at home, because I'm waiting, but get rid of that. So I retired again in 2018.

[Jamie Laing]

And you didn't say it anyway. When you spoke to Eddie that first time, you didn't say, I feel sad.

[Joe Marler]

No, it was just. I think I've got burnout, mate. I've fallen out of love with the game. That was it. And then did the. Did the same in 2018. It was a bit like, all right, is this, like a thing with you? Do you see? I thought maybe.

[Jamie Laing]

So 2018, you.

[Joe Marler]

Do you.

[Jamie Laing]

You decide to retire again.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And I remember this, like, being like. I've told you this before, but like growing up, rugby players, you know, my heroes. You guys are my heroes. Really? Yeah. Not you so much.

[Joe Marler]

But you're older than me, aren't you? By. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Wilkinson, Lucy.

[Joe Marler]

Oh, okay.

[Jamie Laing]

Tyndall. That generation.

[Joe Marler]

The 03 lot. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

Mega. Mega. So.

[Jamie Laing]

So growing up. So then I remember seeing you retiring again. From a. From a fan point of view, it was confusing. It was like, I don't. Why is he retiring again?

[Joe Marler]

Yeah. He just wants more attention. It's just another retirement party. I thought that was it. Enough's enough. I didn't know. Again, I didn't know what was going on.

[Jamie Laing]

And then you hadn't had any therapy. Nothing at all. It just. You got.

[Joe Marler]

No, because I didn't. I just presumed it was the rugby and it was burnout that had fallen out of love with the game. And the game. I'm gone. I'm gonna concentrate on family and. And Quinn's a bit more. And then I had a pro. It just carried on after that. It got worse. And I had a proper meltdown the back end of 2018. And Daisy was pregnant with our third. With Felix at the time. She's seven months pregnant with Felix. And it was like I'd lost the plot. We'd had a massive argument over a squirrel.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host Voice]

Good.

[Joe Marler]

Do you know what I mean? The squirrel was the breaking.

[Jamie Laing]

The breaking point. There was something. And because you're just feeling internally just.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah. And I'd been communicating any of that. She didn't know what was going on. She didn't.

[Jamie Laing]

She asking you.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

You're being distant or what's going on?

[Joe Marler]

I was distant, mate. I wasn't present at home, like, physically. And Emotionally, there I was just like.

[Jamie Laing]

It was shit.

[Joe Marler]

I was making it like a environment for everyone, but I wasn't aware of it at the time. I was just going through it all.

[Jamie Laing]

Because I think you have that curse, right, because you're such a loud character. When you're feeling great, the whole room feels great. But also if you're not. If you're not feeling great, the whole room feels it.

[Joe Marler]

Often described as poisonous, really, throughout my career, I could either use my powers for good or evil. And more often than not, I'd lean to the evil side.

[Jamie Laing]

Really.

[Joe Marler]

You could turn the room, bringing a room down or influencing other people in a bad way. I'd always lean on that side. And I was like, fucking piece of shit. I look back at that and go, the amount of people that I've made feel uncomfortable and, you know, bad, I go, I don't. I don't want to do that now. I don't want to be like that now. And I go, fuck, I'm sorry that I did that. But at the same time, you go, maybe if I hadn't been like that. I don't really truly learn.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

To be the other way. Do you know what I mean?

[Jamie Laing]

Can I. Do you think you were. And sorry to put this out there, do you think you were a bit of a bully at times?

[Joe Marler]

Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, if most the time, that environment, you know, it's almost encouraged in the way that you have to be that alpha.

[Jamie Laing]

It's the.

[Joe Marler]

It's the toxic masculinity. It's not masculinity in the. The alpha nature. It's the toxic that you go into because you do everything you can to win. You do everything you can to be number one, everything you can to be in the team. Like, yeah, I was. I was definitely. I'll definitely be labeled as that. And you ask a lot of my teammates, I wouldn't be one of the. One of the guys that they would describe as, oh, he was such great fun to be around. He was great. So encouraging all the time. That would be, like, passing moments. That'd be. On occasion, that I'd be like that. A lot of the other time, I might be driving it in a. In a different direction like that. That's not good enough. I get on with it, or I wouldn't drive it at all, which tend to have the same effect as the negative effect. Do you know what I mean? Unless I was being overtly positive, I couldn't be neutral. If I was neutral, it just immediately would be like the sapper of the group.

[Jamie Laing]

Wow. It's also. It's quite a lot of pressure as well for. For you because. Because you. You can feel that you have control so you can use that for good.

[Joe Marler]

Good or bad. Yeah. But a lot of the time I didn't. People would say, oh, you've got a big influence in the group thing. I was like, no, I haven't. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Because you don't realize it. Do anyone that you remember that you were particularly a bit like, oh, you're.

[Joe Marler]

Going for names again here by anyone. You're good at this. You can probe all you want, mate.

[Jamie Laing]

Have you ever.

[Joe Marler]

I don't mind a probe.

[Jamie Laing]

Have you ever apologized to anyone?

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, I've apologized to him. Whether it's been well received or not. You know, a lot of the apologies I've made have never come back with, oh, thanks, mate. Appreciate. Because why would they. You know, it's up. The damage was already done with a lot of teammates like that. And that sort of. That's. I love it where we flip flop around all things. But that's sort of why I retired, like finally, for the third and final time, retired fully from rugby and at Quinn's, because I'd spent the last two years of my career at Harlequins. A lot of my group had sort of retired and moved on. That I'd grown up with.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

And I'd always been close to them.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

And then I hadn't really made any effort at making new friends or engaging with the younger teammates because I was like, well, I've got. I've got kids at home. I've got this. I'll go away with England. I just can't be asked with it. Do you know what I mean? I didn't put in the effort. So then when it got to the point where there was only like four or five of us left of the old guard and then another one went and it's like, now it's just us that are together.

[Jamie Laing]

You felt like an outsider.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah. And I was an outsider through. Through my own fault mainly. I hadn't made the effort to go and thing. And I'd been horrible to a number of the teammates, so they weren't going to make an effort. And it was like, I need to get out of here. It's not fair on me and my body and all that lot from that point of view and my family just to flog a dead horse. But it's also not the best thing for the group now it's their group. It's their club and I'm sort of this.

[Jamie Laing]

This thing, this bad smell in the.

[Joe Marler]

Corner that at any moment could just say something. And it just. Even the coaches were like, hell. So that was it. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

So if we go back to 2018, you've had the argument about the squirrel.

[Joe Marler]

Oh, yeah, Squirrel gate. Yeah, it up. I turned the house over, had a complete meltdown, run out on Daisy. And then the sort of. The thoughts of not wanting to be here anymore, like, really took hold of me and I thought, well, maybe the world's better off if I'm not around. All right, let's just, let's just leave. Both from a practical point of view of leaving her and the kids and everyone around, but also from a worldly point of view. You go, what would that look like if I wasn't here anymore? And that, that was the moment that was like, hell, I need help. I need some proper help here. So I don't know what's going on. I. I tried finding the answers or working it out from 2016 to 2018 and that thing, and I was like, no, I do need to go and get help here. And then that was it. I went and found a psychiatrist and it was actually the doctor at the Quinn. It was the doctor at Harlequin. So the day after Squirrel Gate, I had a game against Saracens at Wembley the day after, the day after and had a chat and he was just asking, everything all right? Everything right at home, like all that lot. And that's delved into it more. And then it was him who was like, right, we're gonna get you some help, mate. Like, let's get through the game today and then we'll get you some help. And that was that moment. Yeah, that was the turning point to go and actually find some proper answers from people that. That knew their.

[Jamie Laing]

What was the first. What was the first meeting like with your therapist?

[Joe Marler]

Humphrey.

[Jamie Laing]

Humphrey, Legend free. What did you say?

[Joe Marler]

I was so scared. I was so scared going there. And I remember sitting in the car for ages in the car park, like, oh, God, I'm not gonna go in. I can't go in. I don't do it. I'll be all right. I'll be absolutely fine. But it was a non negotiable. It was like, no, I can't behave and be who I had been being at home for the person that I love the most and the kids that I love the most. Like, I need to change. Yeah. And then I got in there and he was like, hello. He did. So, yeah, good it was so weird. It was like a proper. I was like, where's the. Where's the. You know, the thing? And he went, what? I went, you know, the thing. I lie on anyone. The chaise launch. Yeah. Do I not? Where do I lie down? I'm expecting. He said, do you want a chaise launch? And I was like, no. Oh, you're right. So we don't really do that. That's not what we do. You want me to bring out the colored cards with all, like, the. What do you see? And all this stuff? I was like, do you do that as well? I was like, no, we're just gonna have a chat. And I was like, right, okay. So he just chatted to me, and I just completely opened up to him. I felt safe because he was a professional stranger. I don't mean like the professional stranger, but if someone that there was no connection to.

[Jamie Laing]

How funny is that? I. Sorry, I. This is the weirdest thing in the world. It's so much easier to talk to a stranger.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

About your feelings.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Because for whatever reason.

[Joe Marler]

Well, because the biggest thing is you don't want to talk to your friends or ye loved ones because you don't want to burden them because they've got enough on their plate as it is. Why do they have to deal with me and all that lot? You're happy to burden a stranger with them. Even more happy to burden a professional stranger who wants to take the burdens on. So that's why it is.

[Jamie Laing]

But isn't that mad, though?

[Joe Marler]

It is mad. It's even madder that you go, well, what's the point in having friends and family? Not going to. Because if it was roles reversed, say it was you and Sophie in that room and Sophie had a lot going on. Would you want her to come to you so you could help her? 100. So why do we feel so bad about doing the reverse?

[Jamie Laing]

Because it's the burden.

[Joe Marler]

I don't want to burden you go there. But what's the point in being together then?

[Jamie Laing]

Oh, because it's a burden. I don't want to talk.

[Joe Marler]

What's the point? It can't all be like.

[Jamie Laing]

Because what's the point of me burdening. Burdening you with my emotions? Because then you're gonna have to also carry my emotions as well as everything else. Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

Or you look at like she's carrying the understanding of where you're both at at that period.

[Jamie Laing]

She doesn't understand, and then she runs.

[Joe Marler]

Well, then you know she's not for you.

[Jamie Laing]

I mean, that was my thought process at the beginning. I was like, I can't tell her this. And then when I went to the therapist the first time, I said, I'm gonna lose my relationship here.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And they said, all right, well, let's sort it out.

[Joe Marler]

But. And did you.

[Jamie Laing]

No, we. We.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, we.

[Jamie Laing]

And then. And then, funny enough, when Sophie said to me, the one thing I want you to be is honest with me. If you're feeling bad, just tell me. Yeah, I don't like the fact that I'm in. Left in the dark here.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Tell me that you're feeling.

[Joe Marler]

Because then it can manifest itself self in. In other ways if you're not telling her. And then a squirrel runs out on the road, and you swerve it, or you don't swerve it, and then a massive argument starts. You go, why the. Have we just had a massive, like, meltdown over a squirrel when that could have been avoided? If you just told me, oh, you're feeling at the minute.

[Jamie Laing]

Did you. Did you take medication?

[Joe Marler]

Yeah. So that's what I was like, Humphrey immediately, you know, did the whole debrief. It was great. And then the assessment was depression and that it recommend me taking antidepressants. And immediately I was like, nope, I don't need them. That is. That is so weak. That is weak. Don't, don't. Don't just put me on pills. That's ridiculous. And yet I'd spent most. Yeah, I spent most of my career on pills, like taking painkillers or taking this for inflammation and that. Like, you go, well, that's fine, or antibiotics when you sit. And I went to the doc, I went back to the. The first doctor that sorted me out at Quinn, and I said, look, I don't want to take pills, mate. It's weak. He went, right, okay, Understand where you come from. It's a natural reaction. What do you do if you've got, like, tonsillitis? And I went, take antibodies, antibiotics. And he said, oh, what do you think the antibiotics do? I said, they make me better. And he went, yeah, yeah, but they help your body make you better. Like, they give you a thing to. Then he said, look, why don't you look at it like that? You know, you might be on them for a year, you might be on them for 20 years, you might be on them for the rest of your life. But why don't you look at it as you're using them as a tool to work out the other stuff to then put, you know, more tools in.

[Jamie Laing]

Your Arm that little relief. But did you.

[Joe Marler]

Did you take antidepressants? Sense.

[Jamie Laing]

I've never spoken about this. Oh, yeah, I've never. I've never really spoken.

[Joe Marler]

That's wild. Yeah. You delve into people's lives all the time.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

You've never, like. But you can relate. Yeah. Do you not want to talk about it?

[Jamie Laing]

Let's talk about it. Yeah, I'll talk about with you. Yeah. During that period in lockdown.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

I took antidepressants.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

I took a cycle, Ciprolex, which is anti anxiety.

[Joe Marler]

Right.

[Jamie Laing]

It was. And I. And I took a Lotus and I spoke to this guy. Funny, he was not a stranger, but he's a friend. He is a friend, but he's also separated. He was a guy I met in Scotland once and he was just randomly.

[Joe Marler]

Met this bloke in Scotland, in the Highlands or like.

[Jamie Laing]

No, like in. In, like an event in Glasgow, in Edinburgh. And he said to me, I. I weirdly had like a panic attack with him and he, like, calmed me down. This is when I was like, 24 or whatever. Anyway, weirdly enough, this. This guy, he's called Rory. He's so nice and he's the best and we are good friends. He has always checked in on me. And then for whatever reason, he checked in on me during lockdown and he said, you. You doing all right? And I went, oh, I'm having a bit of a crap time, actually, man. And he said, well, listen, just to let you know, I've just started antidepressants. I haven't told anyone. I'm going to tell you. So these antidepressants, and it's really helped, they're called Ciprolex. Maybe you should talk to someone about it. And so I did the same thing as you. I said, oh, I've heard this thing. I've heard this, like, thing. I don't know, it's called like, Ciprolex or something like that.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

They're like, oh, yeah. Well, these are the things we've been talking about. Do you want to take them? And I went, oh. And I did the same thing. I went and got them from the pharmacy and I hid it. I hid it from everyone and I put them on the side. I just, like, sat and just stared at them for about half an hour and I was like, ah. And then I took it and it was like, weirdly, like, immediate relief.

[Joe Marler]

I mean, physically, it wouldn't have been an immediate relief, but. Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. You go, well, yeah, it's Fine, I've done it. Yeah, I've done it. It's fine. Yeah, they've done it. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And it was like. And then I was on them for about six months.

[Joe Marler]

Thanks for sharing that. I'm serious. Like, if you haven't spoken, I really appreciate you sharing it because it makes me feel a bit more like.

[Jamie Laing]

I don't know why I'm embarrassed about it.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, yeah, it's. I think it's the same way that. Still feeling that we feel embarrassed about talking about our emotions as well. It's the same thing. Oh, it's weak. Sweet. You can't just rely on medication. You go, why, if it's there to help us, why don't we use it while. So from my point of view, what. Taking them has helped me. And even. And I know it helps me because on and off since 2018, I've been on and off them because there have been times. So I was on them during the 2019 World Cup. And then after the World Cup, I'd had the best time in Japan. It was like incredible.

[Jamie Laing]

Amazing.

[Joe Marler]

We. Man that we bottled it in the World cup finals.

[Jamie Laing]

Cool. I can't believe you did that.

[Joe Marler]

Don't get angry.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm angry because that semi final with New Zealand was the greatest. That's the greatest.

[Joe Marler]

Why have just given us the cut for that? Just. Just for that one. That's a shame. But it was the best experience. I was like, this is incredible. Just the whole thing. I'm feeling great. Although we'd lost the final, I was still like, I'm in a good place. I felt like I was back and then I was like, well, I'm in a good place now. I don't need to. Yeah, don't need to take them anymore. And I just stopped taking them. Not told. Didn't tell anyone. And combining that with the. The come down when you come out of camp hit me hard. I was like hell spiraling again because.

[Jamie Laing]

The camp is so intense. Camaraderie.

[Joe Marler]

Everything, everything, you're right. And the, the scheduling of it all, the thing. And then you wake up on the Monday morning at home and you go, where is everyone? It's great to be home. But, like, why is there no one telling me where I need to be this morning? Why is there no one telling me what I need to wear? I'm not going to see 30 other blokes for the day. Do you know what I mean? It's like, what are we going to do? So the come down and the, the. The sort of exhaustion of that just kept. I kept spiraling. And then it was like, right, okay, get back on the meds. Get back sorted fine. Then it signed. And then I just kept doing that. And I'm. And I'm still doing that. Where even as recent as a few weeks ago, where things have gotten a bit tricky with home life and retirement life or unemployment life, where I go, I really underestimated this. I thought the first three or four months of retirement was great. It was like an extended holiday. I'm just spending all the time with the kids. It's fine. My body's starting to feel better. I'm not aching every Sunday morning after a game. And I was like, this is great. And then you go, what am I gonna do? What do I do? What's my job?

[Jamie Laing]

It's just. It's just finding that new identity. Right?

[Joe Marler]

That's the thing. And I went. I had a good chat with a good friend of mine who, he's been five years retired and been through the same similar issues, and he was like. It took him about 18 months to sort of get to grips with the lack of schedule, the lack of camaraderie every day. See anything? The actual physical nature, the physical fitness, because you look at yourself and you go, well, I don't need to do these weights anymore because I don't need to be that big. I don't need. Do you know what I mean? What's the, what's the purpose of the body? Do you know what I mean? What's. What. What is my new purpose of it? And yeah, really good chat about the identity piece of. Whenever someone asks you, oh, what do you do? You, oh, play rugby. Like, that's always been the answer for the last 15, 17 years. Now if someone asks you, what do you do? I go, I do a podcast, which.

[Jamie Laing]

Is a great podcast.

[Joe Marler]

Thank you. Really kind of.

[Jamie Laing]

It is very good.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, but I mean, like, I do a podcast, but is that a real job? I'm asking you.

[Jamie Laing]

I don't think so.

[Joe Marler]

Right. But look at your setup.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, I, I.

[Joe Marler]

But this looks very professional.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, but you. How much do you love your podcast?

[Joe Marler]

Oh, I love it.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. There you go. Because you love talking to people as much as you pretend you don't, you actually. This conversation now.

[Joe Marler]

No, I absolutely love talking to people. Yeah, Absolutely. Love the engagement. Like, hearing different people's stories, like, the way you can bounce off people. The way you can't bounce off people. Human psychology. I obsessed with it, like, so I love my podcast, but I still have that little bit of like, am I? What? What am I? What am I? Do you know what I mean? What am I? And you go, well, I'm a dad, I'm a husband. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know, so I'm going to put effort in that. But what, what am I?

[Jamie Laing]

Hello, everyone. And great company. Now you know, on this podcast, we're all about celebrating people and their incredible journeys. So as a business owner myself with Candy Kittens and Jampa Productions, I know just how much goes on behind the scenes. It's not just about the big ideas, it's about the day to day hustle, the admin, the hard work that can really pull you away from the creativity that sparked the business in the first place. So finding the tools that actually help you get back to what you love is a game changer. And I'm actually in the process of discovering Google Workspace with Gemini myself, which is why today I'm joined by a very special guest, Zoe Cosby. Zoe, how are you?

[Zoe Cosby]

I'm good, thank you for having me.

[Jamie Laing]

Did you like my introduction?

[Zoe Cosby]

I loved her. What a pro.

[Jamie Laing]

What a pro. Zoe. Okay, so you are a business leader. Tell me about your business first.

[Zoe Cosby]

So Ken Brushes is an independent British hairbrush brand. So we've been manufacturing brushes since 1777. So we're nearly at the point of celebrating our 250th anniversary, which is pretty special. Yeah. Making us one of probably the oldest companies in the world and definitely one of the oldest in the uk.

[Jamie Laing]

I love that. So before we get into the wonderful world of workspace, what's the biggest challenge you've face as a business owner?

[Zoe Cosby]

Would you say the biggest challenge? I just think, you know, everyone would kind of agree is, is. Is the juggle. Yeah, it's just the juggle of like everyday life, having visibility across sort of everything from production to sales to design to, you know, your home life, poorly parents, you know, everything kids. That juggle is definitely the kind of, yeah, the, the hardest thing.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, so on the podcast, we're all about inspiration. So how has Google Workspace with Gemini helped you with the more creative parts of your business like brainstorming ideas or creat.

[Zoe Cosby]

Google Workspace with Gemini has been invaluable, I think, you know, for me, I have no two weeks of the same, you know, take this week. I have created a big brand deck for a potential new partnership that's happening. We're launching a new product. So I've been planning all the kind of product launch into market globally for that. When you have all these ideas and I, you know, my, my brain literally never stops, switches off. I'm constantly taking pictures of things and screen grabbing things. And I think, you know, by using the tools that, that you have available on Google Workspace, you can be more effective in how you manage all of those ideas. So I can build a deck on slides and I can take all those screengrabs and I can ask Gemini to format them for me and give some prompts and it will do that for me. So all of that kind of muddle and mess that's in my head and all that creative side that's either on my phone or in my head, I can kind of collate it all and then use Gemini to tell it what to do. And it will assist me in kind of making some kind of sense out.

[Jamie Laing]

Of all of that. I think that's really good. And also I think the big point for me, right, is Gemini isn't replacing the human thinking.

[Zoe Cosby]

No way.

[Jamie Laing]

It's more about a thought partner so you can bounce ideas off, which is amazing. And so it's helping you go from idea to strategy in less time, which is the most important thing.

[Zoe Cosby]

Definitely. And I think so many of us also working remotely nowadays. And maybe when you used to be in an office with 20 people, you could be like, oh, how do I do this? Or what's the word for that? And say you're on Google sheets and you can't remember the format of how to do something. When you create data, you can just ask Gemini and it will assist you.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, what about the stuff that nobody likes to do? So have you seen a real impact on removing the manual processes and the admin tasks that used to take up so much of your time?

[Zoe Cosby]

Yeah, I mean, data is not my thing. I find looking at huge spreadsheets just mind blowing. And for other people, that's, you know, that's what they love. But I need to be across it. So I can use Gemini to kind of input a load of data, ask it to summarize it for me, and it will give me a report at the end that I can, you know, something I can actually kind of consume and then I can move forwards and get on with, you know, what I'm good at.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, if I had to ask you, what's your absolute favorite tool within workspace that helps you on a day to day basis, what would it be?

[Zoe Cosby]

I think my favorite tool has got to be Gemini on Google Meet.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Zoe Cosby]

Because I work remotely quite a lot of the time. You know, I can be on a 10 minute call or a two hour call. And you know that note taking and I think also when you are taking calls online, be being able to actually look somebody in the eye, so to speak. I know obviously you've got a laptop between you, but you can actually just purely concentrate on that person, the meeting and not be scribbling like head down scribbling and making sure that you've written the right date. You know, just being able to kind of really concentrate. It's really good for relationship building and all those kind of itemized notes that you get at the end of it are just invaluable. You know, for me that's the biggest time saver.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, I agree with you. I think that is the biggest and people don't realize that. So thank you for that. That's very kind. I'm feeling very inspired about the conversation. I'm really excited to see how Google Workspace with Gemini could help me and my business much more. It's all I'm hearing about AI and workspace like Gmail Docs Drive, the Gemini app, and sheets from friends too. It really does free up your focus to focus on your passion, your vision, and what truly makes your business special. It's not just about being a useful tech tool, it's about enabling founders to do what they do best. Build and grow. Google Workspace with Gemini is AI for every business. So if you want to see how these tools can help you unleash your creativity and power your own Journey, visit Goo Gle 10 stories that's G O O G L E forward slash 10 stories.

[Joe Marler]

Did I talk too much? Can't I just let it go?

[Podcast Advertiser/Host Voice]

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[Zoe Cosby]

Let's talk about what's going on.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host Voice]

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[Zoe Cosby]

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[Podcast Advertiser/Host Voice]

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[Joe Marler]

I never felt this way before.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host Voice]

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[Jamie Laing]

Give me advice on fatherhood.

[Joe Marler]

Oh fuck off.

[Jamie Laing]

Give it to me. Come on.

[Joe Marler]

Advice on fatherhood.

[Jamie Laing]

Because. Yeah, it's just a 20 week scan.

[Joe Marler]

I'm so happy for you, mate. How many of your, like, friends group?

[Jamie Laing]

Quite a few.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah. So have you had, like, a little bit of, like.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, I've had a little bit of.

[Joe Marler]

This and that interaction with them and all that lot. But it's not the same.

[Jamie Laing]

No.

[Joe Marler]

As when you've got your own little human.

[Jamie Laing]

Is it the best thing ever when.

[Joe Marler]

You leave the hospital and you go, oh, my God, this is incredible. This, like, elation when you had justice, like, oh, it was just. That was wild because we were Planning to be 25, 24, 23. Quite young. Is it? Whoa.

[Jamie Laing]

In these times, I'd say that's, yeah.

[Joe Marler]

Quite subjective really, isn't it?

[Jamie Laing]

Subjective, yeah.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

But having a kid at 23 is quite young. We just said that. We're just adults at 35. And you had a kid.

[Joe Marler]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. We do look back on that and go, hell, yeah. We were young, weren't we? But we wanted. We wanted to. A young. We wanted to be young, like young parents with the family and all that lot and. But when Jasper was due, we were prepping to play Italy in the Six nations and it was Italy away. And I on the Monday days, went into labor and I was like, oh, I'm gonna have to go to. And they're like, yeah, yeah, that's fine. But then it sort of. There's a couple of complications, but dragged on a bit and she ended up being in labor for like three days. And I was still getting calls from Stuart Lancaster and the England team, like, what's the crap there, mate? Are you gonna come play on Saturday? I was like, I'm in the hospital, like, dealing with this thing. And they're like, okay, just keep us posted. And then even when he came, I was like, so we could get you on a flight out if you want. I went, no, mate, I've got to do this. And I sat and watched it, watch the game with it. And it was just. It's the best feeling in the world, mate. Like scary. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm a little bit scared about it.

[Joe Marler]

You should be scared.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

But that means you. You care. My advice to you is, are you squeamish no more? I just go full.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm gonna go full lower. Yeah, just embrace it.

[Joe Marler]

Embrace it all. It's like messy as. No, I'm not.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, it is. Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

There'll be flying everywhere, you know, I mean, who was it? Was it Pixie or was it Felix? I think it was our fourth. Our fourth pixie. The midwife was like, oh, do you want to help, like, bring her out and stuff. I was like, yeah, yeah. And as we're, like, pulling her out, I went to hand her to Daisy, like, skin on skin, immediately, like that. And then she's so slippery, everything. She's, like, slipped off her stomach and gone off the edge of the bed. And the midwife, that side's like, oh, God. Like that. And then I was like, oh, Even.

[Jamie Laing]

My mom was telling me that when she had it for the first time, she was like, he gets put on you. And she was like, oh. Oh, my God. Like, someone clean.

[Joe Marler]

It stinks. Wash it.

[Jamie Laing]

Clean a bit of that.

[Joe Marler]

Wash it. Get said. Oh, it was just kissing it. You got, like, brown, like, what's going on around you? It's incredible, mate. It would be. It's obvious, but it completely changed your life in more ways than, you know, like, the perspective of it all, the. The fact that you're now responsible for keeping another human being alive, like, but you just do it. Do you know what I mean? You just. You work it out. And Daisy was. Is a natural. She was, like, born to be a mum. Absolutely incredible. And, yeah, you just have so much fun. I know. And you'll be great, mate. You'll be great. But do prepare yourself, dude. It's no good, like, giving people advice or getting advice off people, because it's all always different.

[Jamie Laing]

It's always different.

[Joe Marler]

But I think. I think you'll love it. You'll really love it.

[Jamie Laing]

Rugby is a brutal sport in terms of, like, on the body.

[Joe Marler]

Right?

[Jamie Laing]

Like. Like your body gets battered. Everything gets battered. I saw this really, really sad interview with Steve Thompson, 2003 hooker who's now got dementia.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And he said he always wish he'd never played it. He wanted to be. He said he wanted to be a bricklayer. Wish he'd been a bricklayer because he can't even remember the sport.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

And so you've got people like that and so people go through different things and then you're left. And it's not like football, where you're left with millions, millions and millions of pounds.

[Joe Marler]

No, you're not. But that's because it. You can't compare the two because millions and millions of people like and watch football. So there is millions and millions of pounds available in that. Not many people watch rugby like, they do and they don't. It's not a big sport, is it? We've got teams going bust all the time. It needs Some. It needs some help in growing it. But, yeah, your point on Steve Todd? It's a dangerous game. Yeah, of course it is.

[Jamie Laing]

And do you ever worry about that?

[Joe Marler]

I never did. And then I had kids and then I sort of semi did, and then it got back to, like, the last few months of my career before I'd made the decision to knock it on the head, where a lad. I was on the bench and me and Danny Kerr were sat there watching this game. This lad got tackled from behind and his whole leg snapped and was facing the wrong way. And we did exactly that with something like, oh, God, this is a sport. Oh. And he goes, well, it's not a sport. Like, it's given us so much. It was like, yeah, but I think we should. I don't wanna. Like, am I dealing with that ankle facing the wrong way when I've got four kids at home? And do you know what I mean? It was like, I think when. As soon as you start thinking like that, then you.

[Jamie Laing]

Then that's time.

[Joe Marler]

It's time. Because you're only gonna get. You're only gonna get hurt.

[Jamie Laing]

Do your kids play rugby?

[Joe Marler]

No, I can't stand it. They're sick of it. They've had enough of it. So, I mean, my. My eldest, Jasper, he's 11, obsessed with football.

[Jamie Laing]

Good at football.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, good. Good at football. Loves it. Loves all sports. But when I retired, I told them that I was like, I'm not playing anymore. They're, oh, no, no, no more rugby. I was like, no, no more rugby. And they're like, just went, oh, what does that mean? I can't go on the pitch after the game and play football. But that was his disappointment. He was like, I think it'd be a bit weird if you still went on the pitch and played football and I wasn't there anymore. Like, that's a bit weird. It's like, that's a bit shit. No, they've been great, mate, but they've never really took to rugby.

[Jamie Laing]

But you're. You're happy that you had your career that you did.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, I'm fucking. I got to throw a ball around and whack people for a job.

[Jamie Laing]

So give it to me when you're in a World cup final.

[Joe Marler]

Give it to you.

[Jamie Laing]

Give it to me. I just want to feel the feeling. So take us to 2019. It's World Cup Final. We're in Japan, the tours, it's been amazing.

[Joe Marler]

Did I see you pre tournament?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, you did.

[Joe Marler]

Did you do something or no you.

[Jamie Laing]

Were doing something I did something with Hugo at nights and I do think.

[Joe Marler]

Did you not come out?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, I came out for it. Oh, you did come out, but not for the actual. I came out for, like, the first game.

[Joe Marler]

Oh, one of those fans?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. No, mate, I wanted to come out.

[Joe Marler]

And why didn't you? It was far, right?

[Jamie Laing]

Far to go all the way to Japan.

[Joe Marler]

Not that far for the first game.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

But I was paid by O2 for that bit.

[Joe Marler]

Well played. Really well played.

[Jamie Laing]

But that. So World Cup Final. Just give me the feeling. Insane. When you're running out on the pitch and it's the World Cup Final. Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

You're like. It's just surreal. You're like, how the am I here? How's this happened? This is buzzing.

[Jamie Laing]

Waking up in the morning of a World Cup Final.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, it was weird. You just thought, well, what you do then? Should we go for a coffee? What should we. You have to, like, really settle yourself down. Just because you can't. You don't want to, like, overplay it in your head. And you get to the final and you. You burn out and you've already shot your load and you go, oh, maybe we should have took it a little bit more easy than we did, because that's exactly what we did. I think it was a combination of us not playing to our best. And also South Africa, just monsters. They were unbelievable, mate. All right. Yeah, we got that one.

[Jamie Laing]

When you. When you're going down a dress grum versus something like South Africa, it's, it's, it's. What is the pressure on your body?

[Joe Marler]

It's, it's both the scariest, one of the scariest places to be, but at the same time, the only place you want to be, or I want it to be as a prop, going against the best, like the very best, the toughest there is out there. That's where you want to go. And you. And then you want to. You want to go, well, if I can do it, I want to know. And then if I can't do it, I still want to know, you know? I mean, if I get my head shoved up my ass, I'd like to know that I can't do it so that I can say I'm not going to do it anymore.

[Jamie Laing]

The pressure on your body in that scrum.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, it's mega. You've got, like, these giants against each other. It's such a weird thing, though, like, trying to explain it to somebody. Doesn't understand the world, the normal world like that. And you go, well, you just get eight men all together, like bound up in one. In one pack. And then you get another eight men. And then what you do is then you put your heads into the certain holes and you just push as hard as you can whilst everyone's also pushing you up your ass whilst your neck's being folded like that and you go, what sort of game's this? Do you know what I mean? This is bonkers. But I loved it, mate.

[Jamie Laing]

It was just pennies to untie people's shoelaces.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, I told you. Like, I would try and find. Anyway, I wasn't good at rugby. I was good at certain things, I. E. Scummaging and tackling people because I didn't really have any care for my own say. Like, I just enjoyed that. That nature, like, just whacking. So I had to find other ways to try and stay involved or get picked. Did someone fart? Someone who's farted in here? It's fine. Like we said, it's an open conversation. Let's just like, who started for fact sake. But yeah, was there a.

[Jamie Laing]

Was there a moment where you caught the ball in space and you were like, here we go. Is there a point where you found yourself.

[Joe Marler]

Hang on. You should just go, was there a moment I caught the ball?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

Let alone in space.

[Jamie Laing]

Can you remember a time playing for England where suddenly you, you, you got the ball and you were like, what do I do with it?

[Joe Marler]

No, never.

[Jamie Laing]

Never. My son, in all 95 gaps, never.

[Joe Marler]

And. And my son has also never. He turned around and said, I'll never respect you as a rugby player. And I went, what? It's very cutthroat. I went, unless you score a try for England. And he said that, like, with 10 games to go, like, I didn't know. And I was like, oh, my God, I really need to score a try. I need to get this validation from Jasper. And we were playing Ireland in the Six nations in 2024 and I'd come off the bench. It was a really tight game. We were down by a couple of points and Danny Kerr was on. It was at the base of a ruck and I'm there. I'm like 2 meters from the try line. I've got Alex Donbrandt, like, next to me. Who's going to help push me over? We've got penalty advantage. So even.

[Jamie Laing]

Everything's in your favor.

[Joe Marler]

Everything. Everything. Like, penalty advantage right in front of the sticks. It doesn't matter what happens. We're going to kick the goal, the penalty. And we're Going to win the game. But it's a free shot. Give me the ball. 100. I've got two meters. I weigh 130 kilos, mate. I'm backing myself to think, like, thing. Teammate for 15 years, one of my best friends. Danny, Danny, give me the ball.

[Jamie Laing]

Give me the bowl. Give me the ball.

[Joe Marler]

And he looks up at me and then looks back down. And then Marcus Smith is out the back in the. In the pocket, waiting for a drop goal, like, thingy. Looks at me, looks down, looks at Marcus, looks down, looks back at me, picks up the ball, goes to pass it, flings it behind my back to Marcus, who slots a drop goal, and we win the game. Everyone. Everyone is screaming. Like the whole of Twickenham is. It was one of the best atmospheres I've ever had at Twickenham. Everyone's a buzzing. And if you look at the clip back, everyone's running around. Yeah, celebrate, bro. You see me pretty much walk from that position where I was waiting for the ball, walking towards the spangle. What the. This is bollocks. Absolute bollocks. That was my 92nd cap. And I was like, you piece of. And I said to him, I said, why don't you pass me the ball, mate? He went, I didn't think you'd catch it.

[Jamie Laing]

I love your screen. Give me the ball.

[Joe Marler]

Give me the ball. Give me the ball. And he put it behind me, but I was like, absolutely. And then, then to give it to Marcus to have the drop goal, like, it's so unnecessary. We had the penalty. You can see how worked up I am about. I played 95 games. I didn't score a single point. That is bad, isn't it? I actually think that's a record for an English.

[Jamie Laing]

You played most games with no points?

[Joe Marler]

No.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay. We like to end the podcast with eight questions. By the way, I do want everyone.

[Joe Marler]

Eight questions.

[Jamie Laing]

It's quick.

[Joe Marler]

That's not a short.

[Jamie Laing]

You'll like it.

[Joe Marler]

You've had like a hundred questions up until this. Why didn't you just do 108?

[Jamie Laing]

No, because this is better. This is the format. You'll like this.

[Joe Marler]

Okay. Also, that didn't come up on my chat GPT.

[Jamie Laing]

I also want people go. I want everyone to listen to your podcast. Things people do. I. It's a great podcast.

[Joe Marler]

I'd like you to come on it.

[Jamie Laing]

Why haven't you invited me on?

[Joe Marler]

Because we weren't friends until now.

[Jamie Laing]

Okay, eight questions. Jay, you ready for this?

[Joe Marler]

No.

[Jamie Laing]

What's the saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up.

[Joe Marler]

That makes me happy.

[Jamie Laing]

What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up?

[Joe Marler]

I like to say it. This too shall pass. I like that one from Tom Hanks.

[Jamie Laing]

Like, it's my favorite.

[Joe Marler]

I know when people go, people quote like, it's really good Socrates and like that, I quote Tom Hanks, this too shall pass.

[Jamie Laing]

Best compliment anyone's ever given you.

[Joe Marler]

You got great feet.

[Jamie Laing]

What scares you most about yourself? Okay.

[Joe Marler]

Myself. Yeah. Myself scares me most about myself.

[Jamie Laing]

When was the last time you cried?

[Joe Marler]

Oh, good. I think it was last week. Yeah, it would have been last week.

[Jamie Laing]

Really?

[Joe Marler]

Yeah. You wanted more?

[Jamie Laing]

What's up to you?

[Joe Marler]

Well, it wasn't. There wasn't a secondary question.

[Jamie Laing]

There is going to be another question that's checking. Why did you cry?

[Joe Marler]

Because it was a realization of like, I'm still getting it wrong and I still need to. I need to work harder at trying to sort my out. Like, it's not. Yeah. It's like, I got loads to do still.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, we all got that.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah. And you're like, well, start doing it rather than saying you're gonna do it.

[Jamie Laing]

What's something you can't let go of?

[Joe Marler]

Oh, can I let go? What can't I let go of?

[Jamie Laing]

When Karen pass you the ball.

[Joe Marler]

Piece of that. Honestly. Yeah, just get. You should just get him on.

[Jamie Laing]

I'm going to.

[Joe Marler]

Don't do the whole thing. Don't give him that. Don't. Just say, hello, mate, how you doing? Obviously, you know the format of the podcast, we're gonna do it slightly different. Why didn't you pass him the ball? That's it.

[Jamie Laing]

And just cut.

[Joe Marler]

Just put it out as a Friday bonus. There we go. What can't I let go of? I don't. I think I let go of everything.

[Jamie Laing]

That's a good thing. That's great. That's what it should be like.

[Joe Marler]

Okay.

[Jamie Laing]

What's your guilty pleasure?

[Joe Marler]

Judi Dench.

[Jamie Laing]

I love Judi Dench.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, man.

[Jamie Laing]

Really? Like Judy Denching the best.

[Joe Marler]

Or Valencia. Ice lollies.

[Jamie Laing]

Valencia.

[Joe Marler]

Valencia orange. You have to say Valencia.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, they have Valencia.

[Joe Marler]

Same as, like, you have to say. Yeah, Valencia.

[Jamie Laing]

Valencia.

[Joe Marler]

Have you ever had a village? You off?

[Jamie Laing]

Valencia.

[Joe Marler]

You've never had a Valencia? Ice lolly?

[Jamie Laing]

Valencia.

[Joe Marler]

No. Valencia.

[Jamie Laing]

No, they're good.

[Joe Marler]

Wonderful.

[Jamie Laing]

I can't wait.

[Joe Marler]

Honestly. Treat yourself.

[Jamie Laing]

I go to.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, I would send you some, but they'll melt. Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. What turns you off?

[Joe Marler]

Oh, it's not a lot that turns me off, actually. What really me off. Loads. There's loads there's loads.

[Jamie Laing]

What is it? God. No. You got a Z?

[Joe Marler]

I don't.

[Jamie Laing]

Do, you know.

[Joe Marler]

Peer pressure.

[Jamie Laing]

Good one. That's a good one.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Jamie Laing]

What turns you on?

[Joe Marler]

Nipple play. Really?

[Jamie Laing]

That turns me off.

[Joe Marler]

Really?

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah. It makes me think of a song.

[Joe Marler]

What's the song?

[Jamie Laing]

Nobody likes me, Everybody hates me. I'd rather go and eat worms.

[Joe Marler]

That's not how the song goes. It is. Nobody loves me, Everybody hates me. Go into the garden. Oh, it is the song.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, yeah. Any worms? Okay, last one.

[Joe Marler]

What's that got to do with nipples?

[Jamie Laing]

I don't know. When I rub it, that's what happens. Don't know why. What do you like?

[Joe Marler]

That's the clip.

[Jamie Laing]

It is.

[Joe Marler]

When I rub it, nothing happens.

[Jamie Laing]

What do you like most about yourself?

[Joe Marler]

I've got. I've got. I've got a good back.

[Jamie Laing]

That's such a weak answer. Come on.

[Joe Marler]

He's a strong back. Piece of.

[Jamie Laing]

He's a strong back.

[Joe Marler]

What do I like most?

[Jamie Laing]

I reckon you're a good dad.

[Joe Marler]

It needs some work. In fact, that will be my advice to you. Work on it. I. It. It will. It does need work.

[Jamie Laing]

I know.

[Joe Marler]

That's my biggest. You got. You got to remember, they see. They do what they see, not what they're told. But that's great advice. That's how you'll really great advice, man. Teach them stuff. And it's a lot harder if you've spent a long time just expecting them to do what they're told as opposed and then you're doing the opposite. Do you know what I mean? That's what I'll give you. Great advice. There we go. I love that. Okay.

[Jamie Laing]

Joe Marley, you're the best, baby. I love you.

[Joe Marler]

Thanks.

[Jamie Laing]

I really, really enjoyed that episode. Joe, thank you so much for coming in. Thank you so much being so open. So the thing that I really took from this episode is we just got to talk more. And I think it's one of those things that we keep saying and talking about mental health. We got to get over the stigma of mental health. But what Joe did today on the episode, which is so important is he labeled himself. He said, no, I went through depression. I went through these things. And that is far more powerful than just saying we got to get over the stigma. So I applaud you, Joe, for being open and honest. And if you're listening to this right now, and you are one of those people who've also been suffering in silence, make sure you talk to someone, to a friend, to a neighbor, to a loved one, whoever it is because being open and vulnerable is cool. It's the best thing you can do. If you haven't subscribed to our great company show yet, please do. It does us absolute wonders and I'll be thankful forever. And don't forget we're going to be back next week for another episode, so we'll see you then.

[Joe Marler]

How do more than 100 million Fortnite players join the battle without lag? AWS is how epic games scales up.

[Jamie Laing]

To keep them in the action.

[Joe Marler]

AWS powers next level innovation for millions of businesses.

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[Jamie Laing]

Hello everyone. We're Jamie and Sophie. You may remember us from Newlyweds and.

[Joe Marler]

Then Newlyweds, but now, guys, okay, Things are about to get even wilder as we take on our biggest adventure yet.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host Voice]

Becoming parents.

[Jamie Laing]

Yeah, that's right, Newlyweds is now Nearly Parents. And we're bringing you the same honest, heartwarming takes on our journey to parenthood.

[Joe Marler]

I guess. Join us as we find out what it really means to become a family while trying not to kill each other.

[Jamie Laing]

Get ready for Nearly Parents, your favorite new podcast.