VANESSA WILLIAMS: Being the First Black Miss America Changed My Life - But Came at a Cost

Summary

Great Company with Jamie Laing Episode: VANESSA WILLIAMS: Being the First Black Miss America Changed My Life - But Came at a Cost Release Date: January 21, 2026
Host: Jamie Laing
Guest: Vanessa Williams

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Episode Overview

In this powerful and candid episode, Jamie Laing sits down with Vanessa Williams—singer, actress, and trailblazer—to discuss her extraordinary life and career. Williams opens up about what it meant to become the first Black Miss America, the backlash and dangers she endured, her drive to excel in multiple fields, motherhood, resilience through loss, and the pressures of public life. The conversation is a masterclass in honesty and fortitude, brimming with humor, vulnerability, and hard-earned wisdom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breaking Barriers: Winning Miss America (00:00, 18:45–30:36)

• Unprecedented Victory & Immediate Backlash: At just 20 years old in 1983, Vanessa Williams became the first Black woman to be crowned Miss America.
  • She recounts receiving death threats (“My parents had a box and they would put all the death threats. The FBI had all of the tracking…” – Vanessa, 00:09 & 25:34).
  • The trauma her family underwent was offset by their efforts to shield her from the worst ("Luckily they kept a lot from me. Cause I think I would have been more terrified. I mean, I wasn't terrified, but I would have been terrified had I known." – 26:15)
• On Facing Judgment and Racism:
  • “From the onset, I was a person of color that had never been a black Miss America before… so many judgments. So instead of… let me cry and let me give up, you have to say, guess what? I'm gonna prove to you who I am.” (00:09)

2. Career, Hustle, and Love of Work (06:59–08:57)

• Williams describes herself as a workaholic who is energized by new challenges: “I love it. I love what I do… I don't like it to end if I'm having a good time.” (07:05)
• She traces her motivation to the uncertainties of a creative life: "As an actor... what's the next job? Am I ever going to be employed again?" (62:02)

3. Coping, Self-Care & Aging in the Spotlight (10:34–16:22)

• Williams discusses rarely resting—and how her pregnancies were often her only downtime.
• She openly discusses the anxieties and pressures of aging as a woman in showbusiness:
  • “You can tape it up, wig it up, you know, corset it up… there's a time where you're gonna age and look your age, so you've gotta say, oh, I'm not the ingenue anymore.” (13:59)
• She humorously describes new beauty treatments: “Takes your blood, spins it with the trout sperm—the polynucleotides, the salmon sperm…” (15:54)

4. Resilience Through Loss and Family Bonds (31:01–36:38)

• The recent death of her mother and how she copes through work and art:
  • “I've been thankful that I've been able to have eight shows a week to keep me grounded and... stable and focused.” (33:24)
  • Her mother's persistent pride and advocacy: “[Mom] went over to Elton during the after party and said, you know, Vanessa needs another song in Act 2...” (32:57)
• Williams stresses the importance of reading to children, reflecting on her close bond with her late father (31:01).

5. Generational Trauma and Sexual Abuse (37:43–41:07)

• Vanessa reflects on recognizing her own childhood sexual abuse only later in life, and being shocked by how common it was among her peers.
  • “I sort of realized in later life that you were sexually abused. And when you spoke to a lot of your girlfriends about it... they all said, that happened to me.” (37:43)
  • Discusses how families often bury such traumas and the challenges of parental communication.

6. Role Models, Legacy and “Nepo Babies” (44:27–50:54)

• Her inspirations: Lena Horne and Diahann Carroll, both for breaking ground and activism (“Diane Carroll… first Black woman to have a TV show… She wanted to make sure her hair looked good… That one step integrated the union.” – 45:00).
• On her own children: Proud but acknowledging the pressure they feel to live up to her career; commits to being present as a mom and offering honest advice.

7. The Miss America Scandal: Resignation and Moving Forward (50:54–59:51)

• Williams clarifies she resigned from the title due to leaked nude photos, not willingly: “Some photos of me were leaked to a magazine… I resigned toward the end of my reign to start my career with that heavy baggage was a massive burden.” (00:57 & 52:31)
• She details the legal battles, the pain of public shaming, and how it pushed her to prove herself across music, TV, and theatre.
  • “To start my career… with that heavy baggage, was a massive burden… It took me 10 years to get on Broadway.” (52:59)
• On forgiveness – she accepted an apology from the Miss America Organization primarily to satisfy her mother’s wish for dignity ("The only way you should go back is if you get an [apology]...So that's kind of how it happened. And it was basically for my mom. And she got the apology. She gets what she wants." – 58:53)

8. Resilience, Motivation, and Looking Forward (62:23–65:42)

• Vanessa’s enduring drive: “I love the more. Like, I want more and that doesn't—not greedy. What's next? What's the more? Give me more. More joy, more happiness. What is the more?” (63:44)
• Aspiring to produce theatre: “To actually take an idea and workshop it and turn it into a musical and have it be a success. I would love to be part of that team…” (64:35)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On breaking boundaries (00:09):

  • “From the onset, I was a person of color that had never been a black Miss America before... So instead of like, let me cry and let me give up, you have to say, guess what? I'm gonna prove to you who I am.” — Vanessa Williams

• On her parents’ protection (25:34):

  • “They would call and harass them like, ‘We're going to kill your daughter. We know where you are, we're going to come after you.’ … I had no idea how crazy it was because they didn't want me to freak out.” — Vanessa Williams

• On public aging as a performer (13:59):

  • “You can tape it up, wig it up, you know, corset it up, you know. But when you're in front of the lens, there's really no hiding… there is a time where you're gonna age and look your age, so you've gotta say, oh, I'm not the ingenue anymore.” — Vanessa Williams

• On resilience after scandal (52:59):

  • “To start my career… with that heavy baggage, was a massive burden… It took me 10 years to get on Broadway.” — Vanessa Williams

• On forgiveness, for her mother’s sake (58:53):

  • “The only way you should go back is if you get an [apology]... So that's kind of how it happened. And it was basically for my mom. And she got the apology. She gets what she wants.” — Vanessa Williams

• On motivation and drive (63:44):

  • “I love the more. Like, I want more and that doesn't—not greedy. What's next? What's the more? Give me more. More joy, more happiness. What is the more?” — Vanessa Williams

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Key Timestamps

• 00:00 – The Miss America win & immediate threats
• 06:59 – Vanessa on being a workaholic
• 10:34–16:22 – Relaxation, aging, and beauty regimens
• 31:01–36:38 – Family legacy, grief, and her mother’s influence
• 37:43–41:07 – Discussing sexual abuse and generational silence
• 44:27–50:54 – Role models, legacy, and raising her children
• 50:54–59:51 – The Miss America resignation, legal struggles, and ultimate forgiveness
• 62:23–65:42 – Motivation, future ambitions, and the love of “more”

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Quickfire Closing (66:10–68:10)

Favorite phrase: "Hi, Mumsy." (66:14)
Best compliment: "You've done a great job with your kids." (66:27)
What scares her: "That I say yes too much." (66:57)
Last time you cried: "Saturday night at the evening show. I have to cry every second act." (67:10)
Guilty pleasure: "I love reality shows. And right now, MAFS UK." (67:30)
Turns her off: "Rudeness." (67:49)
Turns her on: "Children's laughter." (67:51)
Favorite self-trait: "Resilience." (67:55)
Favorite lyric sung: "These are the sweetest days we'll know." (68:05)

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers an unflinching portrait of resilience, grace under fire, and the pursuit of selfhood against a backdrop of public scrutiny and private trial. Vanessa Williams’ story is one of breaking barriers, enduring pain, and continually pushing forward—with humor, purpose, and humility. For listeners seeking inspiration and a deeper understanding of what true resilience looks like, this conversation offers it all.

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Listen to the full interview for even more stories, warmth, and insight from Vanessa Williams and host Jamie Laing.

Transcript

[Jamie Lang]

Coming up in this episode of Great Company. You win Miss America.

[Vanessa Williams]

20 years old, I had death threats as soon as I won. People wanting to kill you.

[Jamie Lang]

Get out of heaven.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah. My parents had a box and they would put all the death threats. The FBI had all of the tracking and I had no idea how crazy it was because they didn't want me to freak out. And people would call and harass them like, we're going to kill your daughter. You know, we know where you are, we're going to come after you. From the onset, I was a person of color that had never been a black Miss America before. People said, oh, she's gotta be from the ghetto. I mean, there were so many judgments. So instead of like, oh, I don't wanna do this anymore, let me cry and let me give up, you have to say, guess what? I'm gonna prove to you who I am. Hi, I'm Vanessa Williams and I'm in Great Company. Here's Vanessa Williams.

[Jamie Lang]

Ms. Vanessa Williams. You know, the characters that you play as well, they're all bitches, I would say. Resilient.

[Vanessa Williams]

Thank you, thank you. Some photos of me were leaked to a magazine. But anyway, I resigned toward the end of my reign to start my career with that heavy baggage was a massive burden.

[Jamie Lang]

If you had a magic wand, would you change it?

[Vanessa Williams]

Truthfully, I think the reason why I stay so busy is as an actor is like, what's the next job? Am I ever going to be employed again? It's like in your bones. I love the more. Like I want more and that doesn't not greedy. What's next? What's the more? Give me more. More joy, more happiness. What is the more?

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[Vanessa Williams]

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[Jamie Lang]

Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Lang and this is Great Company. Guys, welcome back to another episode of Great Company. Now this week we've got an absolute powerhouse on the show, Vanessa Williams. I sat down with Vanessa at the end of last year. So some of the things that we talk about kind of reference back there. It was just before I went on paternity leave. I don't know if you know, but I am now a dad. It's exciting and tiring. Now. I was completely blown away by her. She is incredible. We talk about how she got into acting, being the first black woman to win Miss America and everything that followed after. Okay. Her story is inspiring. Incredible, everything. Now, before we get into it, I'm just gonna ask you to do one quick thing for me? Okay, I'm sorry to ask this, but please follow and subscribe to Great Company. It's totally free, and it really helps us keep bringing the guests you love and making the show bigger and better every single week. If you can do that, I'll be forever grateful. All right, enjoy this incredible episode with the one and only Vanessa Williams.

[Vanessa Williams]

Hi, I'm Vanessa Williams, and I'm in great company.

[Jamie Lang]

What's your love language?

[Vanessa Williams]

I love acts of service.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay.

[Vanessa Williams]

You know, so cleaning up. Yeah, exactly. The toilet is running. Can you please flick, you know, figure that out and give me a new flipper on the. You know, so I love acts of service. I do love gifts. Probably best gifts have been cars, which.

[Jamie Lang]

Get out of here.

[Podcast Host (Am I Doing It Wrong?)]

Oh, yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

I'm a big. I'm a big gearhead. So I've gotten 1, 2, 3, 4 cars, which I. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Wait, wait, hang on, hold on. So what cars are we talking?

[Vanessa Williams]

Well, my first husband got me, and this was 1991 or so British racing green, Mazda Miata with the. You know, that was like when the Mazda Miata first came out. And then my push present for.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay, here we go. Yeah, here we go.

[Vanessa Williams]

I got a Mercedes convertible when I had Sasha from my husband Rick. And. And then for my 40th birthday, he gave me a Maserati Cambia Corsa and this. Honestly.

[Jamie Lang]

Unbelievable.

[Vanessa Williams]

So those were the good ones. Yes, for sure.

[Jamie Lang]

Question I want to ask you. Do you think you're a workaholic?

[Vanessa Williams]

I do like to work.

[Jamie Lang]

Okay.

[Vanessa Williams]

So I guess I'm a workaholic. I mean, I love it. I love what I do, and I show up on time and I'm professional about it, and I don't like it to end if I'm having a good time. So I would say yes.

[Jamie Lang]

What is it that you love so much about it? Because I say that because before we started, I asked what you were doing on the weekend.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yes.

[Jamie Lang]

This is your weekend.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yes.

[Jamie Lang]

When you're meant to rest.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Jamie Lang]

And relax. You had two shows on Saturday, and then you were recording something yesterday as well.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

At Abbey Road. And then you're in this morning. You've probably done something before this.

[Vanessa Williams]

No, just. Just hair and makeup, just getting it together.

[Jamie Lang]

But it's. But it's incredible, right?

[Vanessa Williams]

It's like that and a show tonight.

[Jamie Lang]

And a show tonight. It's that constant hustle. And it's funny, there's this whole idea, right, in life that we were meant to work really hard, and then at some point, we're meant to go, right, we just slow down.

[Jonathan Fields]

Why not?

[Jamie Lang]

We slow down. But actually with you, you seem to be speeding up.

[Vanessa Williams]

You know, I don't know whether speeding up or just being consistent. I've just been really lucky to constantly get opportunities that are all different and all intriguing and, you know, coming here to London to not only live here, but also sort of make my West End debut. Even though I started in 2020, I was supposed to do City of Angels and we were in previews and I was ready to make my debut then and Covid shut us down. So it was a three month rehearsal period and just learning to. To live over here. And then that got hijacked by Covid and then.

[Jamie Lang]

How annoyed were you at the time? Were you.

[Vanessa Williams]

I was gutted just because, I mean, in perspective. And I know I was here, you know, there was only maybe 12 cases, you know, when the whole country. So it was in the relative scheme of things, we were still going to the pubs after the show. We were still, you know, life was still going. Life was still going. And then even when the announcement came and Boris Johnson, he said, you know, it'll only be two weeks and we'll be back to normal. So I thought, let me just sit in the apartment and wait two weeks and we'll be back to. And then the entire world shut down. So now, you know, five years later. It's wonderful to be able to be a professional on the West End and feel what that's like. And I'm always astounded by the scope of fans that come worldwide, that have come from everywhere, from Japan, Singapore, China, Korea, Brazil, Poland. In the United States, a lot have come for, like, girls weekends and stuff. And I always say, like, how do you know me? And it varies from Desperate Housewives, Ugly Betty, the Odyssey, which I did back in 1996.

[Jamie Lang]

Isn't that math?

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, well, yeah, that's how they taught us history, you know, when we were in school. Hannah Montana, the movie. And like, okay, how do you. So it's just like crazy, my music.

[Jamie Lang]

Because that is the biggest moment. Hannah Montana, the movie.

[Vanessa Williams]

That's it.

[Jamie Lang]

Because without a doubt, I knew I made it. It was all downhill from that.

[Vanessa Williams]

Exactly.

[Jamie Lang]

Hannah Montana's Honestly, honestly makes you shed a tear. It's unbelievable. How do you relax? Because if you're constantly working, you've been like this, and looking back at your past and what you've done, it is, I don't know, a period in your life when you ever had a rest. Had a rest. And you look, can we just Say, for everyone who is just listening, you look fantastic in every way.

[Vanessa Williams]

Thank you.

[Jamie Lang]

So how do you relax?

[Vanessa Williams]

So I know that apparently you're about to have a child.

[Jamie Lang]

Yes.

[Vanessa Williams]

So congratulations. But that's when I would get my opportunity to rest when I was pregnant, because it was like, you know, I can't do it, because I was always like, what's the next album? What's the next project? And when I was pregnant, even though I worked up until, you know, probably halfway through the pregnancy, it was an opportunity to kind of just relax. So, I mean, there's many. I look through my recording history and look through my videos and go, oh, dreaming. That's when I got pregnant with. With Jillian. Okay. I was pregnant with Devin. When I did work to do, I thought I had the flu, but no, I was actually pregnant. So I can, like, clock my pregnancy journey through all of my videos back in the day.

[Dr. Tori Waxman]

Wow.

[Jamie Lang]

You've done so much in your career, you know, and it. And look. And you're gonna do so much more. Right. Which is amazing. What is your proudest moment, do you think?

[Vanessa Williams]

Probably the biggest moment was singing live at the Academy Awards in 1996, singing Colors of the Wind that I, you know, was on the airwaves in 1995 for Pocahontas, for Disney film, and the song winning. My parents being there in the audience. My dad was, I think, sitting next to Tom Cruise or something. So it was like the family was in the audience. I was wearing a gorgeous Versace gown, sang, you know, live, and being acknowledged by, you know, Alan Menken and Stephen Schwartz for winning. Unfortunately, as the singer, you don't get the Academy Award, but it was still. The acknowledgement was amazing. And you're doing it live, and that's. It was amazing. It was amazing. So, I mean, I've done. I've done the super bowl, you know, which was.

[Jamie Lang]

You've done the Super Bowl?

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, I did the 1996. That was a good year. 1996 for me was a good year.

[Jamie Lang]

1996. Wait a second. Hang on a second. You did the Super Bowl?

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, I did. I did the national anthem, and it was Dallas Cowboys against the Pittburgh Steelers. Cowboys won, but yeah, and Diana Ross was the headliner that year. And, you know, it's so big that it's like everyone's like, are you. Are you afraid? Are you afraid? It's like it's. You're on the 50 in the middle of a field so far.

[Jamie Lang]

The world is watching you.

[Vanessa Williams]

You're just seeing a sea of Color, and you're just so far removed of reality. And, like, get ready, because then the jets are going to go and there's fireworks and stuff. So you're just like, make sure I can hear the beginning of, you know, the tune so I can, you know, sing.

[Jamie Lang]

What is your nerves doing? Come on. Too much?

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, it's. It's. It's so big that you kind of like, take yourself out of your body.

[Jamie Lang]

It's like a disassociation.

[Vanessa Williams]

Totally, Totally.

[Jamie Lang]

Do you ever get insecure or nervous or anything? Or do you just sort of just. You fight through those things and just.

[Vanessa Williams]

For sure. I think, you know, being a woman of 62 and theater is very forgiving. You can tape it up, wig it up, you know, corset it up, you know. But when you're in front of the lens, there's really no hiding. And I can see why so many people get a lot of work done because they're afraid of what aging will look like in front of the lens, because it doesn't. You know, there are filters that you can throw on to soften and all that stuff, which, you know. But there is a time where you're gonna age and look your age, so you've gotta say, oh, I'm not the ingenue anymore. I'm gonna play the aunt, the mother, the grandmother, the strong diplomat, whatever. And you have to embrace that transition.

[Jamie Lang]

That's hard, though.

[Vanessa Williams]

It's hard.

[Jamie Lang]

That's a hard thing to do. You are. You're clearly beautiful. You truly are. And youth is this thing that we try and cling onto for some reason.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And we'll go to extreme ends to try and keep it.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And I unfortunately think it's, for some reason, harder for women than it is for men.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Men seem to be able to. Or we embrace it more than women.

[Vanessa Williams]

Although there have been a couple recently.

[Jamie Lang]

Don't worry, you'll see me pick my kid up from school on TikTok.

[Vanessa Williams]

It's like, why did he do that to his eyes? Why? You know, so you. So I. So that's the panic.

[Jamie Lang]

But how do you counter it? So for.

[Vanessa Williams]

Well, I do all the things. I mean, I, thank God, have not had to have a facelift, but I do. I've done the recent thing that I did here. I did a P5 thing, which is. Oh, yeah, Pico. Dr. Satch Mahone, but it's a pico laser that feels like pin pricks. Then he takes your blood, spins it, spins it with the trout sperm the polynucleotides, the salmon sperm.

[Jamie Lang]

Is it trout? Has it changed?

[Vanessa Williams]

This is Italian trout.

[Jamie Lang]

This is Italian trout.

[Vanessa Williams]

And spins it and then re. Injects it into your face and neck and stuff. I don't know whether I've done three.

[Jamie Lang]

I'm running there now, honestly. Let me drink that.

[Vanessa Williams]

I've done three. Every three months I've done three. And that's here. But so I'll do like. What's the new thing? Should I do it? Is it, you know, is it non invasive? And what will the results be?

[Jamie Lang]

Being on stage performing? Do you think that's where you're happiest?

[Vanessa Williams]

Depends on the audience. True.

[Jamie Lang]

What is it about a Monday night audience is a bit sad?

[Vanessa Williams]

No, Monday nights are our best. Monday nights. Cause we're one of the few shows that are open on Monday nights. So we get like the real theater enthusiasts. So we get killer audiences on Monday nights. And I do have this epic entrance which, you know, which I come up from the floor with my glasses on and it looks like I'm rising in a lift and then it's ding. And you realize that, you know, the doors are imaginarily opening and thunderous applause. So sometimes when I go wild. Yeah, yeah. And then sometimes when they don't, I just look and look and then they go, oh, it's okay to applause. So sometimes they go like, I didn't think there was going to. I said, believe me, I will wait. I will wait.

[Jamie Lang]

I shall wait. Wait until that comes, you know that I don't care. It's 10 minutes, I'm still here waiting.

[Vanessa Williams]

Exactly.

[Jamie Lang]

Wow. Cause it must be hard to perform when the audience has low energy. Right? It's hard to.

[Vanessa Williams]

Well, the difference between, you know, your London audiences, they're very respectful, they've seen tons of stuff. And sometimes like on a Wednesday matinee, the coach buses will come in and they're lovely silver haired people that are used to seeing a beautiful show with nice costumes and this is a lot of attitude. It's New York. It's. You know, Miranda Priestly is not nice to. To many people. So there's a lot of attitude in your face. So they're very polite, but they're not very vocal. Whereas you've got like the Americans are coming in and. Yeah, they're vocal and they're laughing and they get all the inside jokes and stuff. So I can always tell when there's more Americans in the house than there are for, you know, the proper.

[Jamie Lang]

I went to a wedding once in America. With my friend. And, you know, at the end, they actually sadly divorced pretty soon after. But when they got married, said, can you please kiss the bride? And they did this full on, like, make out session up there. All the Brits. All the Brits were like this. And all the Americans, like, let's go. It's just such a divide that you can see all of us. Oh, God, this is a bit awkward. It's just a totally different audience.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

You win Miss america and you're 20.

[Vanessa Williams]

1983.

[Jamie Lang]

1983. 20 years old.

[Vanessa Williams]

Junior at uni. And I was supposed to come here to London for my junior year abroad. So I already had my deposit. My room was. My roommate was ready to come because I, you know, they'd never been a black Miss America. I had done the pageant on a lark because I was freshman year at uni for musical theater, you just. You can't perform. So it's your core year, so you're learning acting and piano and dance and stagecraft and all kinds of stuff. Sophomore year, you're allowed to start auditioning for things. And I was in everything. And locally at Syracuse, which is upstate New York, it's about, I don't. Four and a half hours north of New York City. So locally, there was a local pageant that feeds into the Miss America pageant. And Miss America pageant is the one pageant that has talent. So, you know, it's not like USA Universe World, that's all looks. And Miss America is like a scholarship pageant. So you have a seven minute interview, then you do your. Whatever your talent is on stage.

[Jamie Lang]

What was your talent?

[Vanessa Williams]

I sang. So sophomore year, I started doing all the shows and the local pageant kind of scouts their talent, you know, like the opera singers or whatever. So I'd gotten like, do you want to do the pageant? And I was like, no, I don't. Don't do that. And I was supposed to do Cyrano de Bergerac, and I had a small part in it, but that got canceled. And that was at Syratus Stage, which is a repertory theater. And that would have gotten equity points to get my Equity card, because on Broadway you can't work unless you're an Equity member.

[Jamie Lang]

Yes.

[Vanessa Williams]

Here you can. Which is crazy. Yeah, yeah. So. But I am equity here, by the way. I'm here on both. Just to let everyone know I pay my dues.

[Jamie Lang]

Just to let everyone know that. Okay?

[Vanessa Williams]

So I said, you know, let me. I called my mom. I said, you know, I've got April free. Do you think I should do this pageant? And she's like, is there scholarship money? Because I'd gotten scholarships the previous years. And I said, yes, I do it. So my parents didn't even come to the pageant. My friend played. One of my good friends played piano. I got, like, a bathing suit down at our local Sibley's. Yeah. Yeah. Department store and won. So then I was on my way to the States. That was in April, on my way to the States in July. And my friend played the same song, same piano, whatever, and I won that. So all of a sudden, from April to September, I had. Now was in a national contest. And I again, still thought I was coming to London. And I won the whole thing. So at 20 years old, like, now, what am I due to do? Am I completely. My world completely changed.

[Jamie Lang]

What happened? Because that is. There's something about that in life, right? Which is where sometimes when we really want something, when we want something more than anything, it almost stops us from getting it, right. God, the world. I don't know.

[Podcast Host (Am I Doing It Wrong?)]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

No, no, you want it too much. But when. Sometimes when we don't really want something, it happens.

[Vanessa Williams]

You. And is it fate or like, that's like. I don't know. How did I get here? And it took me a long time to kind of realize, okay, that that was part of my history. Stop trying to, you know, use it as a. Because I remember talking to my acting teacher, and I was like, I just want to be taken seriously. You know, everyone sees me as a beauty queen. He said, that was your door. That's. That's what happened in your life. And that was your door that led you to all this other opportunity.

[Jamie Lang]

Do you know what's amazing about that is I say this so much on this podcast, so listeners will be bored as I did a reality show, right? And you know, those people who did the reality with me want to deny it. They don't want it. It's not. Yeah, I know. Some more. And again, you know, there are so many people I admire. You one of them who. You don't deny your roots. That's the door that opened up to everything. And you work hard once you're through that door. But that is your roots. Why deny the opportunity that you had at that point to do something? Accept it. What was the. Again, explain to you the backlash that you get from being the first black Miss America?

[Vanessa Williams]

Oh, tons of. I mean, there's a myriad of. I mean, I was pro choice, pro era, Equal Rights Amendment. I mean, I was so. You know, the Miss America franchise was one that was started out As a. As a. As a swimsuit contest in Atlantic City is a seaside town. I mean, what is it like? Not like Plymouth, but it. Like a seaside town with a boardwalk. And this was like their annual swimsuit competition. We're talking way back in the day. And it turned into a scholarship program for women for college and career and all that.

[Jamie Lang]

So if you win it, you. Then you get the title, and then you. You get a scholarship to wherever you want to go to.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, you basically get. Yeah, get the money. And then you're. You've got a year of singing and. Or whatever.

[Jamie Lang]

Whatever going around and saying, I'm.

[Vanessa Williams]

I Miss America. I Miss America, you know, and, you know, my first. I met, well, Ronald Reagan. President Reagan called me and said it was a great thing for our country the night I won. And then I was at a White House dinner shortly after that. I've met, like, seven presidents in my lifetime. Yeah, I've met seven presidents in my lifetime. I've got photos of them all.

[Jamie Lang]

Wait, Ronald Reagan phoned you? He said. And you went, hi, Mr. President.

[Vanessa Williams]

But, yeah, my traveling companion, you know, my. What is it? By chaperone, said, we've got somebody on the phone for you. And I was like, oh, my God. And that was. Yeah, so it was in. In the grand scheme of things, when you think about history. And my parents, you know, were married in 1960 and had me in 1963. From their perspective, I mean, John F. Kennedy just got shot. MLK gets shot, you know, shortly after that. My brother's born in 1967. This was the height of the equal. Equal Rights Movement. So, you know, the voting act is established. So as a black couple having kids in the 60s, you're wondering, what is my life going to be? What can I. What is the security of my life gonna be? Like, raising kids, which is kind of similar. Like, what's going on now. Like, the world is. People are getting assassinated. Oh, my God.

[Jamie Lang]

It's scary. It's very scary. And then your daughter suddenly has this title and is up there. Yeah, it's scary. And you're getting this backlash. It's a lot of fear.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So 20 years later, all of the. I guess progress is an example of what I've been able to do by breaking this barrier. But then again, you get the backlash of people wanting to kill you. We had my parents get out of heaven. Yeah. Yeah. My parents had a. A box. And they would put all the death threats. The FBI had all of the tracking. Even when I would do appearances, they Would be like, be careful when you go to Chicago, or be careful. And I had no idea how crazy it was because they didn't want me to freak out. But, yeah, I had death threats as soon as I was one. As soon as I. As I won. At 20 years old.

[Jamie Lang]

At 20 years old.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

I don't know how you deal with that.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, well, luckily they kept a lot from me. Cause I think I would have been more terrified. I mean, I wasn't terrified, but I would have been terrified had I known.

[Jamie Lang]

Was there any moments where you were scared?

[Vanessa Williams]

I got an inkling when I came home from my hometown. We had, like, a hometown parade, and there were sharpshooters on top of one of our buildings. And I live in a tiny town, and I was like, wow, that's unusual. And one time when I was doing an appearance in Alabama, and I was supposed to be on the back of a convertible with the convertible seat down. And before we started, they said, you know what? We're going to put the roof up. And again, I thought, okay, that's a little unusual. One time I was in a motel, and they said, don't leave your room unless you talk to your. My chaperone, which is in the room next door. So those were just like. Just hints of that sense that they didn't really want to tell me everything, but that there was danger. And I wrote a book with my mom about this.

[Jamie Lang]

I know.

[Vanessa Williams]

And she talks about, like, you know, and my mom is so tough, but she talks about people threatening, calling our home phone. Because back then you had a. A phone book. We're talking way back in the day, but there was a phone book. And our phone was listed because we were listed. And people would call and harass them, like, we're gonna kill your daughter. You know, we know where you are. We're gonna come after you. The police picked up a guy that was mad at my mom. Cause she wouldn't let. I don't know what the deal was, but he was threatening to kill her. And the cops got him, you know, so it's crazy. So it wasn't just she won a beauty pageant. It was just because.

[Jamie Lang]

Just because you want. Because you were Miss American. The color of your skin.

[Vanessa Williams]

But, you know, look at the world today.

[Jamie Lang]

I know.

[Vanessa Williams]

That's just. And look at the judgment and look at the.

[Jamie Lang]

But it's so upsetting that that can happen.

[Vanessa Williams]

I know. And as a parent, I know you're like, I want the world to be a wonderful place and a safe place.

[Jamie Lang]

You Know, if my baby had any sort of threat or, you know, first, if my baby had done something wrong.

[Vanessa Williams]

Right.

[Jamie Lang]

Like, you know, growing up. Okay, maybe I could. I would still be protective.

[Vanessa Williams]

Right.

[Jamie Lang]

But I get it. But just because of the way they looked. I don't. As a parent, I don't know how your mother. I would have. I would have been up on a building as a sharpshooter myself.

[Vanessa Williams]

I think I. Yeah, it was a very stressful year. Very proud, but very stressful. So. And we all lived through it. And again, it's. You know, I always think, oh, that's in the past. And then I look at the racism and the judgment and the triggers that everybody has now, and it's like.

[Jamie Lang]

It's like this weird, cyclical.

[Vanessa Williams]

Exactly. Didn't we make any progress at all? Can't we just accept the myriad of cultures and backgrounds that we all.

[Jamie Lang]

Live? Like, why do we care?

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. And also, I mean, you know, I look at my. My. My history, and I had a wonderful opportunity to do that show called who do youo Think youk Are? Have you. Yeah. So I did it. And my story could not be any more American than what I found out then, really. So it's not like, oh, go back to Africa, like, honey, I've been here. I can trace back to, you know, 1824, when my great great great grandfather was here. One of my great great grandfathers served as one of the first black troops in the Civil War to, you know, my other great great grandfather was born a slave, but was educated and was the first representative of color in Tennessee. So it's the tradition and the history lives so deep inside me. So it's.

[Jamie Lang]

And anyone who tries to eradicate that or make you feel differently. Right.

[Vanessa Williams]

But that's where we are now, you know, being a real American. Take us back to make American great again.

[Jamie Lang]

I heard that your father was one of the most incredible people.

[Vanessa Williams]

He was. He was.

[Jamie Lang]

And showed you what a father and a husband and a man should be like. And in psychology, they always say, supposedly, if your father loves you, you know how to be loved yourself.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And so you must have had that in abundance.

[Vanessa Williams]

Absolutely. And also, another tip for a new parent. Read to them every night. Doesn't matter if there are infants. Hold them in your hand and read to them. My dad read to me all the way up until I was probably 12. Like, would come in at nighttime, and we started with, you know, obviously, nursery rhymes and fairy tales, and we would discuss psycho cybernetics. And I'm Okay. You're okay. Back in the day, because it was an opportunity for us to kind of, like, talk about behavior and kind of unload, you know, and it was an amazing, amazing relationship. And he did. Me and my brother, it was like story time. And that was his contribution. He would do that with my kids, too.

[Jamie Lang]

He did every night with you? Pretty much.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he would Stardust. That's how he started to learn to read. And there was one, it was called Let Papa Sleep. And I remember that was like our initial book time, and that's how we would learn how to read. He would show it to us and, you know, reading at a young age. Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Do you miss him?

[Vanessa Williams]

I do, I do. I miss my mom, too, who just died recently here in London, which was, you know, unexpected. But, you know, she came to see me doing what I love and what she knew I could do well, and opening on, you know, here in the West End was my dream. And she saw that on opening night. And of course, she went over to Elton during the after party and said, you know, Vanessa needs another song in Act 2, you know, and, you know, everyone's like, oh, my God, she's at the Elton John. She didn't care. That's what she wanted him to know. She needs a new song in Act 2. And it'll probably happen if this show continues. I'm sure I'll get my new song in Act 2. Thanks to Helen Williams, my mom.

[Jamie Lang]

It's. You know, I have. I don't know why I've spoken to this one with other people, but for some reason, I've got to an age now where I suddenly realize that life is temporary. And it's. It's like, you know, especially with your parents, you just kind of think they're going to be there forever. Yeah, in a way. And you. And then suddenly they're not. And it's. Yeah. I don't know. Life doesn't really prepare you for that for some reason. So how has the last year been without your mum?

[Vanessa Williams]

It's. I've been thankful that I've been able to have eight shows a week to keep me grounded and, you know, stable and focused. And I've also taken the opportunity to, you know, when I'm not there and people that have come to see me and I've been away, it's because I've had to go home to take care of, you know, selling her estate, burying her. I just. We just buried her remains in end of September. You know, there's a lot of Stuff that you have to do in terms of the mechanics of death, Getting, you know, death certificates, going through life insurance, all that stuff. And thank God I have my brother that has helped me. You know, we've been a duo just kind of tackling all of the business of death together. But also, I've had an opportunity to grieve. And luckily in the show, I literally have to cry every night. And that's been kind of a trigger. Like, ugh, I can let it go tonight.

[Jamie Lang]

Really? So you can let that go within your art?

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And even when she was, you know, at the London Clinic and going through all the tests, and it took 25 days to figure out what was going on until she passed.

[Jamie Lang]

And how did she die?

[Vanessa Williams]

Can I ask? Acute liver failure. And we don't know what triggered it. And, you know, we had the best liver specialist, Dr. Patrick Kennedy, who I love. So we, you know, we're trying to figure out how it happened. She was 85, so she could not have gotten Amy. She would. If she gotten a liver transplant, that would have helped. But again, at 85, he said, there's no way we can actually get her on a list. And, you know, even if she survived the operation, who knows, you know, whether she could survive it? So it was. And she wasn't. I hadn't seen her, so she apparently wasn't feeling well a couple of weeks prior, so we didn't know how bad it was. And my mother was so strong that, you know, she. Nothing hurt her. Nothing. Her pain tolerance was so high, and even when her blood work was crazy, she had no real symptoms. So, yeah, it was a shock, but resilient woman. Resilient. Even Professor Kennedy said, oh, Helen, you're a tough one, Helen, you're a tough one.

[Jamie Lang]

But I can sense that resilience in you. I can. And, you know, the characters that you play as well, I know they're all bitches.

[Vanessa Williams]

I know.

[Jamie Lang]

I would say resilient.

[Vanessa Williams]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Jamie Lang]

But you do you manage to find within your characters that sort of that real strength and that resilience. And, yes, you can lean into that place of being. But I imagine your mom must have been one of those people who would have asked the question, the difficult questions, if needed be. And I imagine you're like that as well.

[Vanessa Williams]

Oh, yeah. I mean, my mom in her family, they called her the General because if there was anything going on, if she flew in to take care of situations and matters, watch out. Cause Helen's coming in.

[Jamie Lang]

No way.

[Vanessa Williams]

So she was and she was only 5ft, so she was like a terror. So people were definitely afraid of her. So she was a role model, but also an example of, like, she's getting it done. So I think it's my natural tendencies is not to confront. I'm like, okay, if it's not gonna happen, I'll just walk away. And it wasn't meant to be, but my mother had her list of enemies. Had, yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host (Am I Doing It Wrong?)]

She.

[Vanessa Williams]

She had. She was like, a little like. Like an Al Capone. She was like, if there was a Mafia, she'd be the. She'd be the dog.

[Jamie Lang]

She'd be like, she's the boss.

[Vanessa Williams]

Exactly.

[Jamie Lang]

She's the Godfather.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. And we actually found out in. We did ancestry DNA, and she. She's like 15% Italian. I go, there you have it. That's why. And I go, there you go, Mom. She's like, I don't know how. I said, well, that completely makes sense. Family comes first. And don't with the family.

[Jamie Lang]

Love that.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

One of the things that I read about and you spoke about how when you were much younger, you sort of realized in later life that you were sexually abused. And when you spoke to a lot of your girlfriends about it. Yeah, they all said, that happened to me.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. Which is. Which is crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And I, you know, and I spoke to my mom. I was talking about. Then she said the same thing.

[Vanessa Williams]

Oh, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

That. That happened to me. And my mum always said it casually. I sat and I said, hang on a second. She said, yeah, yeah, yeah, that. That happened to me.

[Podcast Host (Am I Doing It Wrong?)]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And it. That sort of flippant attitude to going, yeah, yeah, that.

[Vanessa Williams]

That.

[Jamie Lang]

But that shouldn't be happening, and that shouldn't happen. And what you said after that is you said it made you almost sexually aware at a young age, which was.

[Vanessa Williams]

Mm. And it's also the 70s, you know, the 80s back in the day, which it was much. I mean, there's no. There's no phones. You know, of course there's phones, but there's no cell phones. There's no tracking. Yeah, yeah. I mean, back in the day, it was like, you know, Studio 54. That was. I mean, I didn't go. I tried to get in once. They didn't pick me.

[Jamie Lang]

But don't worry, I tried to get on. I tried to get onto Raya, the dating app, and they didn't pick me one ages ago. Similar, right? It's very similar.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. But, you know, so it was a different time.

[Jamie Lang]

But is that an excuse?

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, exactly. It is not an excuse, but it also is kind of sad when you realize that it's happened to so many, many people. Yeah, it was heartbreaking.

[Jamie Lang]

It is hard. And I think that. I don't know, I just.

[Vanessa Williams]

And as a parent. Yeah. I mean, I didn't even mention it until, you know, my father had passed away by the time we wrote the book together, and my mother. Your father, could not have handled it if you. Yeah, yeah. Because as a, as a father, you want to be a protector, you know, and even that knowledge. I remember when it happened, getting off the plane, because it was happening in California. I was with a friend. We had a, you know, a trip to. A trip with their family friends to California. So I came back and my uncle had just died and I came. I remember your parents could actually meet you on the Jetway and remember coming up. And my dad was just ashen, like, like, just pale. And I was. I knew that something had gone wrong. And they said that his. His younger brother had died. And so it wasn't even, like I had a moment to say this happened and I feel uncomfortable. That was like. The reality was hitting me. I was like, okay, I'm not even going to bring that up. So that's kind of what my reality was. And I just buried it, you know?

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, I think we. We've. We've learned in life to. To kind of bury things quite well. That's the way that we do. Okay. Brush under the cup and just keep moving forward.

[Vanessa Williams]

And also, your parents, you really don't want to tell. I mean, unless you've got a really extraordinarily close relationship, it's hard to talk to your parents about anything that's unusual or, you know, even if, you know, smoking weed. I just found out my. I was on a FaceTime with my two daughters and like, yeah, I remember that time we got high and we went to, you know, this is the two of them talking together. It got high and we painted, you know, went to the ceramic studios and colored me mine and. And painted some stuff. And I'm like, where. When was this? And how did I not, you know, how did you not share this with me? But anyway, you know.

[Jamie Lang]

But did they. But do they say, mama, you ever smoke weed?

[Vanessa Williams]

Well, they know. But I was very. I was very. Whenever. I always think that I believe in teachable moments. So when they're in high school, if they ever ask me a question, I will completely be honest. Really? Yeah, absolutely. I remember my daughter as. Like, we were watching the news and it was about like, you know, if the weed you smoked you think was, you know, good. Well, right now there it's called hydroponic and your kids are smoking different kind of weed and whatever and marijuana. They would say on tv. And my eldest daughter said, mom, did you ever smoke? I go, yeah. She's like. And then instead of like, my brain would be like, how did it feel? She's like, what did your friends think of you?

[Jamie Lang]

I was like, what? Ah, we were all doing it. Yeah, we were all doing it.

[Vanessa Williams]

Exactly. So it's curious to kind of jump in their head and see what their perspectives are.

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[Jamie Lang]

Who were your role models growing up? Because for you, right, you are a role model for so many people, being a black woman who have done all the things that you have done. But growing up, who did you look at?

[Vanessa Williams]

I love Lena Horne. Lena Horne was one of those beautiful, amazing, talented groundbreakers that she was in television, recording, Broadway, an activist. And I got a chance to meet.

[Jamie Lang]

Her and what was it like meeting her?

[Vanessa Williams]

I burst into tears. Talk about tears. That was. I was in my 20s. Like, I bursted just because. Because she was legendary and she knocked down all those walls that I admired. So she was amazing. But Diane Carroll, again, Diane Carroll worked with me as she played my mom in a movie called A Courage to Love. And she was like the first black woman to have a TV show on broadcast TV and again did Broadway and recording and stuff. So these were all the women that had done everything that I wanted to do, the scope of work and just broke barriers and just like saying, you're on television, you're playing. She played a nurse called Julia and she was telling me this. She wanted to make sure that her hair looked good because nobody had done black hair before. So she brought her hairdresser to do her hair on the show. That one step integrated the union. And because. Because she insisted on that from then on, the. The hair and makeup union was integrated because of that one step. So those are the little things that you don't realize make a tremendous difference. But these open the doors for other people.

[Jamie Lang]

Your kids must. They must be chatting.

[Vanessa Williams]

They don't care.

[Jamie Lang]

My kids are like, they. They will get. And I reckon they chat to other kids and they go, other kids are going, my mum's great. And they go, come on. My mum. My mum is pretty great. But you are. But truth, you're not even. I'm not even part of your family. I feel proud. No, I do. Because they must look at you and just think, you know, yes, your mum. And yeah, sure. And there's been ups and downs and mess around like every life is.

[Vanessa Williams]

Think about the pressure, though. The pressure's like, explain that. So the pressure's like, ugh, I want to be a singer, but my mom's done that. Ugh, I want to buy a house. I Want to buy a house? When my mom bought a house when she was in her 30s. So it's like, yeah, there's pressure. There's so much pressure. And that's. I don't feel sorry for them because I've got two daughters that are like, they're making their own music and they're doing it, and they ask for the advice and they've embraced it, which has been great. My son is tremendously proud of me as well. But.

[Dr. Tori Waxman]

But.

[Vanessa Williams]

The judgment of people, like, oh, you're a Nepo, baby. You know, you've got everything handed to you. Oh, of course you want to be a recording artist because your mom was. But if you've got the skill set and the talent and the drive, why not?

[Jamie Lang]

Do you know what. But also, you've done it. That you're. I mean, from 11 Grammy nominations to doing West End to doing everything act, you've done it. You've done it all right. But you also know how hard it is as a parent. You probably want to say, look, you can go down this route, but it is hard. But you also, like you said at the beginning, you want them to go and do anything they can. But how do you advise your kids around that space?

[Vanessa Williams]

Well, luckily, I've brought them everywhere. And I know as a parent, you're going to drag your kids everywhere, because why not? It's a learning experience. And sometimes it's better to be in the recording studio, backstage, in a trailer, on set, because they learn how hard you work. So they'll.

[Jamie Lang]

So they learn from example.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I've also. They also understand the sacrifices, like, I'm not gonna do this project. Cause I wanna be home with you. I don't wanna travel and be away that long, because I wanna be home with you. And that's important. So they see the sacrifices that I've made throughout my career to be a mom, you know, to be able to pick them up from the school and be at their concerts and do their makeup for their dance recitals, all that stuff I. Those boxes and say, yeah, I was there. You know, so is there ever a balance? No. Do you feel guilty? Yes. You will always feel guilty. You always feel guilty. That's just part of being a parent, really.

[Jamie Lang]

Do we always feel guilty? I can't deal with that. Or do you feel guilty now, but.

[Vanessa Williams]

Just drag them along? Because everything is a learning experience. For instance, when my daughter, my Jillian, who's Lion Babe, who broke over here about 10 years ago with her music, she graduated from uni at the New School. And I had a gig in Japan. And she said, oh, I wanna go to Japan. I said, you wanna go learn the set and you can perform with me? And she learned everything that was supposed to sing. And she ended up being on the road with me for about a year and a half until she started working on her own music. And then now she's a big dance star. We did Mighty Hoopla together in June, which is great.

[Jamie Lang]

Oh, my. That's amazing to be able to do, you know. Cause you wrote your book. Book with your mum. And the book was called you have no idea.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And so you did that with your mum. But then also you get to do things with your daughters.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

That's unique and special.

[Vanessa Williams]

It is, it is. You know, I. I'm happy that she still thinks I'm cool enough to, like, join in on a track with her, which is great. And, you know, it's. It's. You see people, you see your kids with similar skill sets. Like, if your father was a mason and you've been on the job with him all the time, and you know the craft, then it's not a wonder that you can be a skilled Mason. Cause you grew up watching the artistry of that particular craft. So they've seen me in the recording studio, they've seen me live. They know what they need when they're on stage or whatever. So when they said, you know, I want to try singing, I want to try acting, I didn't say, get a real job, but, okay, let's make sure you got the training. Let's do this and get the proper team so you can kind of shine with Miss America.

[Jamie Lang]

You had your title revoked.

[Vanessa Williams]

No, I resigned.

[Jamie Lang]

My mistake.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. No, no. But they threatened to revoke it. I resigned. Some photos of me were leaked to a magazine which they were going to put out in September. I got a tip from a reporter saying, I heard that you're going to be on the COVID of this magazine. And would you like to make a comment? And I said, I don't know what you're talking about. I called my lawyer immediately. I said, I don't know what's going on, but something's going down. Investigated and found out this particular photographer that I had worked with as a makeup artist, slash, he ran a local and a local, meaning my hometown. A local model registry, which should have been the first clue. Cause it wasn't a model agency anyway. Shady trusting. I had done some photos with him that there was no release. Never supposed to be seen with Anybody. Anyway, he had been working and trying to sell these photos as soon as I became famous behind the scenes for. As soon as I became famous, ended up selling to this magazine they wanted. So the pageant said, you know, you were gonna. You're gonna lose your title in. In a particular amount of time. And I at that point said, you know, people. And then people were saying, fight for the title. You've done everything. You, you've been fine, Miss America, blah, blah, blah. And again, I'm working on it. I've got a. A documentary coming out on this. So again, I hate to bastardize and, and make this tiny.

[Jamie Lang]

No. And I can't wait for this documentary.

[Vanessa Williams]

But anyway, I resign. So, yes, I resigned toward the end of my reign. And so it was not only. Not only was I labeled as a beauty queen, which negated talented intellect, but a scandalized beauty queen. So to start my career, which I wanted to be on Broadway with that heavy baggage, was a massive burden. And it took me more than a massive budget. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It took me 10 years to get on Broadway to be. And through that I became a recording artist and did television and films, but battled my way through. I mean, I should have named the book. Oh, I didn't know she could do that because it was always like, oh, I didn't know she could do that. And it was like constantly breaking down assumptions and judgment, which makes you tough, makes you hard. And it's taken a while for me to kind of soften, to be back to who I was before I became famous.

[Jamie Lang]

Cause how is that legal? I mean, I'm sure you're gonna go into this in the documentary, but how is it legal that someone can take, you know, photos of you?

[Vanessa Williams]

It wasn't legal. I had a lawsuit and my parents were paying for it. And I had a high powered lawyer. And of course that whole magazine had how high powered lawyer team. And after a while I was like, you know what? I want to get on with my life.

[Jamie Lang]

And they just didn't care.

[Vanessa Williams]

They don't care. They. Are you kidding me? We're talking 1984.

[Jamie Lang]

Yeah, but this.

[Vanessa Williams]

So think of where are the.

[Jamie Lang]

More like this poor young woman.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, look. Look at all of these struggles. I mean, how many documentaries have you seen in that time frame where it's David versus Goliath? They don't care, you know, because they. Unlimited funds. And my parents, again, after they. The principle of it, they wanted me to fight, which I completely understand. But then after a while, I felt like I don't want to do this to you guys. I want to get on with my life, and that's what I chose. I got. I'm going to resign. Wow. Let's forget the lawsuit and let's move on mentally.

[Jamie Lang]

What happens during that period.

[Vanessa Williams]

I was. Thank God I had a great team, my parents and loving friends that believed in me, obviously, and believed in my future. And I just had to kind of like, you have no idea who you think you know. And so it was like, I'm gonna prove it to you. And it was trying to be respected and taken seriously and to show my intelligence, but also, I want to have a normal life. And I threw myself into. You know, I ended up. My publicist, who came in to help me with the crisis, ended up being my boyfriend, who ended up being my manager, who I ended up marrying and having three kids with. So I kind of threw myself into. This is going to be normal, and I'm going to control my personal life. So I had that as the escape from the reality. But he was also very realistic because he was also attached to my career. So he would be like, you know what? Things aren't gonna be this easy for you. So he was the wise sage, but also not as optimistic as I was. So I was like, I'm gonna do it. And he's like, gotta be realistic. So I guess it was a good balance because that always fueled my fire when people said, now watch me.

[Jamie Lang]

I love that. Did you write about that in your book with your mom? Did you see. Did your mum speak about that time at all?

[Vanessa Williams]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The book is like point, counterpoint. It's like, this is what I thought was happening.

[Jamie Lang]

What a great one.

[Vanessa Williams]

Let me tell you what really happening. And my mother was so direct, and people that know her, because this is also an audiobook, the General. Yeah. But people that know her, like, oh, that's Helen. That's Helen. Keeping it real. Always keeping it real. And I was like, I can make this happen. You know, in time, the dust will settle and people will see who I really am. And I love that.

[Jamie Lang]

Go get that attitude.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

Constantly. You got it.

[Vanessa Williams]

So is it naivete? Yeah. Probably resting in fate. Is it like. I don't know. But I knew that. And every genre that I've put myself into, whether it was recording. Well, you're a beauty queen. How you're. Or you're too Broadway. Your voice. So end up having success in there, then theater. Well, now you're a recording artist. You're not really from theater. Then opening the doors there. So There was always kind of a prove it.

[Jamie Lang]

I get it. You're always batting down those doors, and you always have to prove something. Always have to prove something. And then sometimes. And also in the back of your mind or in your own mind, you go, you know, you have the talent. You know, you have this and that. And what? I have to prove it. Fine. I'm happy to. I'll prove it to all these people. And constantly.

[Vanessa Williams]

It's exhausting.

[Jamie Lang]

It is exhausting. Then the big question. Even though that is your. That is your past, that's where you begun. If you had a magic wand, would you change it? Truthfully?

[Vanessa Williams]

Truthfully. I mean, if I could have my kids, probably I would. Yes. It's made me the person that I am. But of course, I mean, it's not. It's not. It's not even taking the easier road out. But I would be curious to see what my. I don't want to say success, because I am so happy that I see myself as successful. But I would be curious to see what the root would be, you know, what the path would be.

[Jamie Lang]

The Miss America organization apologized to you. Are you a forgiving person?

[Vanessa Williams]

I guess I would have to say yes. Cause I don't like to get caught up in negativity. So it's almost like that's over. Good for you. I've already moved on. My mother, on the other hand, not so much with her list.

[Jamie Lang]

I wish I had met your mom.

[Vanessa Williams]

And what happened was I knew the president of the Miss America organization at that point, Sam Haskell. And he reached out to me and said. And took me to lunch and said, listen, we would to invite you back to the pageant. And I was like, why? Why would you want to do that? And not only because, you know, you can show all the things that you've achieved over the years. And of course, it was for a ratings issue, too, for him as the president. So I talked to my mom, and she's like, why would you want to do that after all they've done to you and us, the only way you should go back is if you get an ap. So I was like, well, this is what my mom says. And that's kind of how it happened. And it was basically for my mom. And she got the apology. She gets what she wants.

[Jamie Lang]

She gets what she wants.

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[Dr. Tori Waxman]

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[Vanessa Williams]

Life.

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[Jamie Lang]

You've had three marriages? Yes, my father's had three marriages as well.

[Vanessa Williams]

Okay.

[Jamie Lang]

Oh, I'm gonna follow in suit. But what do you like and love?

[Vanessa Williams]

I love a sense of adventure and optimism, a sense of security. I mean, since my, I think the reason why I stay so busy is as an actor is like what's the next job? Am I ever gonna be employed again? And that's just, does that always. It's like in your bones like, oh my God, I'm never gonna work again. What's next?

[Jamie Lang]

Someone has successful and the achievements that you have and the accolades and everything.

[Vanessa Williams]

That you, yeah, you're always like, what's next? That is not. Even though it's still relevant. It's not. Because relevance, who cares? You can always. But it's like what's, what's the next project? And you know, so I, I, maybe that's something in your bones that you know, comes from.

[Jamie Lang]

Where do you think that comes from?

[Vanessa Williams]

The auditioning days.

[Jamie Lang]

But come on, let's try and work that because I, Okay, I, you're Like, what's.

[Vanessa Williams]

What's next? Kidding me?

[Jamie Lang]

Every moment. Yes, Every moment.

[Vanessa Williams]

I don't know.

[Jamie Lang]

I post a social media post. Well, that's it. I'm done. But what's so refreshing for so many people that will, you know, within this industry, just in life in general, especially being someone who's self employed, we always think the same thing. We think, okay, that's it. That's the last one.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

And that's what keeps us driving forward though, because if we were complacent, we wouldn't be doing what we're doing. Right. So it's important to have that. But how do we conquer that? I always say that, you know the thing that if you had a wish from a genie, right. And I sort of try. I say these thanks every single night. But one of the things I thank for is I always say I just, I'm thankful that I can one day be content because that is what.

[Vanessa Williams]

Because are we ever. Are we.

[Jamie Lang]

I'm gonna die not being content.

[Vanessa Williams]

But I love the more. I love, like I want more. And that doesn't. That's not greedy. That's not being selfish. What's next? What's the more. Give me more. More of whatever. More, more joy, more happiness. What is the more. So I don't think it's a negative thing. It's also being curious about life and like, who are the new people that are gonna come in into my life and what is this next adventure gonna be? So, you know, we just had a.

[Jamie Lang]

Casting sense of adventures is so exciting.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah. So it's relationships, it's, you know, travel, it's new experiences. And that always makes you. You want to be educated and never stop learning.

[Jamie Lang]

What do you still want to achieve? If you could say right now, this is on my checklist. This is what I want to get. What is it?

[Vanessa Williams]

So I just kind of jumped into producing theater. So that's great to be a part of a financial team that hopefully you'll recoup, but to actually take an idea and workshop it and turn it into a musical and have it be a success. I would love to be part of that team to artistically have stuff to say. You know, right now. Starring in Devil Wears Prada. Yes, I'm starring in it. Yes. I can have say over what I wear and how I want to be seen, but I don't have say about the entire scope. And like, this would be a great idea if you did this or this. This would really help, you know, change it or elevate it or whatever.

[Jamie Lang]

Cause you must have your thoughts and your opinions and you're just like, this would make it.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So. But you know, again, I'm happy to be starring at the Dominion, you know, and I love what I do, eight shows a week. But having be able to be a create from idea to opening night would be something that I have never done. And I'd love to thank you for.

[Jamie Lang]

Being you and being here and this was. Yeah, I knew this was going to be incredible in every way. I'm such a big fan and this has been truly amazing.

[Vanessa Williams]

Really.

[Jamie Lang]

Vanessa, thank you, honestly, so much.

[Vanessa Williams]

Thank you.

[Jamie Lang]

We like to end the podcast with it's quite a lot but eight questions quite a lot. So we're going to start again now. So yeah, settle in. But it could be quick. Fight any way you want. You ready for this?

[Vanessa Williams]

Sure, sure.

[Jamie Lang]

What's the saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up?

[Vanessa Williams]

Oh, hi, Mumsy. That's my. My three year old calls me Mumsy, so. Hi, Mumsy.

[Jamie Lang]

Best compliment anyone's ever given you.

[Vanessa Williams]

You've done a great job with your kids.

[Jamie Lang]

Great.

[Vanessa Williams]

Or your kids are so polite. That's an I. When I would travel with them on planes, the Sewardesses would always say, oh God, your kids are so polite.

[Jamie Lang]

Wow.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lang]

I saw a clip from a guy who, very successful guy and he was asked what's his biggest achievement and he paused and he said, being called dad. Amazing. Makes me just so excited for it all. What scares you most about yourself?

[Vanessa Williams]

What scares me most about myself. That I say yes? Too much.

[Jamie Lang]

Good answer. Last time you cried.

[Vanessa Williams]

Saturday night at the evening show. I have to cry every second act so it's guaranteed there'll be tears.

[Jamie Lang]

Get ready for the Monday night. What's something you can't let go of?

[Vanessa Williams]

Come on, my love of travel.

[Jamie Lang]

What's your guilty pleasure?

[Vanessa Williams]

I would have to say I love reality shows. And right now, MAFS uk.

[Jamie Lang]

Isn't it good?

[Vanessa Williams]

This is the Julia Ruth was on the wrap up show yesterday. Like you're showing your head after. Anyway, all in it.

[Jamie Lang]

What turns you off?

[Vanessa Williams]

Rudeness.

[Jamie Lang]

What turns you on?

[Vanessa Williams]

Children's laughter.

[Jamie Lang]

What do you like most about yourself? Yourself.

[Vanessa Williams]

Resilience.

[Jamie Lang]

Bing, you win. And final one, your favorite lyric you've ever sung.

[Vanessa Williams]

Oh, that's so hard. These are the sweetest days. We'll know.

[Jamie Lang]

Vanessa Williams, it's been an honor. Thank you so much for going on Great company.

[Vanessa Williams]

Thank you. You're amazing and good luck.

[Jamie Lang]

Incredible. Thank you so much. Wow. I mean, what an episode. What an episode. I mean, so many things to take from that. The fact of how resilient she is. I mean, it really makes you inspired to think of this woman, Vanessa Williams, when she was young, right? She was the first black woman to win Miss America. An incredible achievement. But she received death threats, racial abuse, and her parents try to keep it away from her. Just put yourself into that mind of that young woman at that time. And it kind of made me think that sometimes we can be in a moment that we feel is overwhelming, that we're never gonna see the way out. And actually if we lift our head up and we just realize there is always a horizon that we can get to it. And someone like Vanessa Williams shows that that just be resilient in those moments. Moments. Incredible episode. Vanessa, if you're listening, thank you so much for coming on. So guys, I really hope you enjoyed that. Let us know what you think in the comments. Let us know if you like the episode, who you want to see next and remember to like and subscribe. And we're going to see you next week for another episode of Great Company.

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[Vanessa Williams]

Hey, it's Raj and Noah.

[Podcast Host (Am I Doing It Wrong?)]

And we're back with a new season of Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.

Because we're still doing a lot of stuff wrong.

But who isn't? That's why each week we're talking about the topics so we could all use a little helping hit with whether it's making new friends as an adult, managing our emotions, or even dreaming, we'll be.

Talking to experts in their fields who are definitely doing things right. So the rest of us can be a bit wiser and a lot better equipped to handle whatever life throws at us.

Subscribe now and listen to new episodes of Am I Doing It Wrong? Dropping every Thursday starting January 1st, wherever you get your podcasts.

And for the first time ever, we're going to have full video episodes on YouTube. Because as long as there are things to get wrong wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do them better.

[Vanessa Williams]

Love y'. All.

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