← Green & Red: Podcasts for Scrappy Radicals
Green & Red: Podcasts for Scrappy Radicals
ENCORE: Capitol Hill Riots and the Ruling Class (G&R 453)
00:57:28
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- [00:00]
Scott Parkin
Welcome to Green and Scrappy Politics for.
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Bob Bozanko
Scrappy People, a regular podcast on radical environmental and anti capitalist politics brought to you by Bob Bozanko and Scott Parkins.
- [00:16]
Scott Parkin
Welcome to the silky smooth sounds of the Green and Red podcast. I am your co host, Scott Parkin in Berkeley, California. And we are coming to you at the end of the week of a unique and interesting and a little bit scary week in American history. It's Friday, January 8th, and today we're gonna be, we're gonna have a short but succinct episode about that. We have color, colorfully called, at least a working title is Riots in the Ruling Class. And so we're gonna talk a bit about the events that happened on Capitol Hill this week. We're going to talk a little bit about what's been an ongoing theme with us, particularly of late, which is the ruling class and stabilization, et cetera, in regards to Trump. And we're going to talk about a few other things as well. But as always, I am joined by.
- [01:12]
Bob Bozanko
Bob Bozenko and it's good to talk to you. It has been a hell of a week and everybody's talking about this, everybody's writing about it. So I think the trick is to try to say something different. And, you know, I think we can do that. As always, let's begin by, you know, thanking everybody out there who listens and watches on YouTube or follows us in any way, green and red media, or afflict the comfortable or whatever. We appreciate it. Please share whatever you have, whatever venue, retweet, share it on Facebook, whatever rate, you know, review. I think we do say things that you're, you're unlikely to hear in most places. We appreciate it and really would like to kind of continue to do this and have more people listen to the guest we have on and listen to our history segments and everything else. So please share it, all that other stuff.
- [02:02]
Scott Parkin
Yep. And if you have a few extra dollars and you want to support grassroots independent media podcasting, check us out on Patreon and you can become a recurring donor@patreon.com greenredpodcast or you can make a one time donation@greenandredpodcast.org and just hit the little button that says support. And we will appreciate it greatly to kind of get into the episode, have a couple of different things that we want to comment on today. I think I'll start it off a little bit, which is, and hopefully this will help frame what we're going to talk about a little bit, which is it's around Destabilization and so we're in the midst of a, of a destabilization going on within the system. Right. Liberal democratic capitalism. And this week was a very big shock to that system and has destabilized and thrown certain elements in our society. I want to say that I actually, I think, and this is something Bob and I can talk about is that I think the destabilization actually has been going on much longer than that. And you know, there's a couple of like more existential but also like real world sort of crises going on which are shocks to the system. One is going to be the COVID pandemic. Another is the sort of economic crash that we're in largely as a result of the pandemic. And then there's the sort of bigger, more existential one, which is also a very real threat to our existence, and that's climate change. And then a fourth crisis that we're getting as a result of a bunch of different factors is also the rise of the far right. Up until this week, I would say that in liberal circles, I feel like I didn't think they were taking the rise of the far right as seriously. They took Trump seriously, like things within, like legitimate politics. But as someone who's out of like anti fascist anarchist sort of circles, which I feel like is a community that does take the far right pretty seriously, I feel like that there's been a little bit of a wake up that has kind of hit some of those more mainstream liberal circles with what happened at Capitol Hill the other day. And definitely like power holders are all of a sudden very, very concerned.
- [04:15]
Bob Bozanko
Take it seriously now. Mike pence and Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham are at the top of the list now in the crosshairs.
- [04:24]
Scott Parkin
They're top of the hit list.
- [04:25]
Bob Bozanko
Yeah, we'll talk about that more. But yeah, they have to take it seriously now. And you know, you mentioned systemic crises and that phrase was used a lot and still is to describe 1968, because you had not just events in the United States, you had the Tet Offensive, the media response to that, and then Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy killed and all other stuff. But you had Prague sp Spring and Paris and so forth. And even though, you know, we talk about 1968 as the crisis, it was like this brewing. And Vietnam had a lot to do with that. The Vietnam War had a lot to do with that in the United States, obviously in the same here we've been talking about that since last spring. I mean, Covid, in just one blow, laid bare you know, what a disaster, what a failed state this was. You know, the medical system, the healthcare system, the economic system, the political system. Right. Which has just been paralyzed. You know, four. 4,000 people died today of COVID I think that's the first time, isn't it, that it's been over 4,000 and.
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Scott Parkin
Yeah, I believe so.
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Bob Bozanko
And, you know, it was in the.
- [05:27]
Scott Parkin
3000S for the last couple of weeks, and I think it hit 4,000 today.
- [05:30]
Bob Bozanko
I mean, it's, it's first time we'll get into, like. I'm not downplaying what happened this week. It was horrific, and I do think we need to keep calm. But I find today's Covid data far more. More frightening and chilling than what happened on Wednesday in D.C. and that's not downplaying it. I mean, I would think that, you know, seeing this massive blood number of people die every day would inspire mobs to go to Capitol Hill and demand their country back, rather than, you know, some insane, psychotic madman with these bizarre conspiracy theories. But it's 2021, and this is where we are.
- [06:10]
Scott Parkin
And. Yeah, it's where we are. You know, you have a new piece out today called this is not who, and in it you have a quote from the great Gil Scott Heron, which I typed up. Do you want to share it or do you want me to.
- [06:26]
Bob Bozanko
No, go ahead, go ahead. Okay.
- [06:28]
Scott Parkin
As the great Scott Heron told us, America leads the world in shocks. Unfortunately, America does not lead the world in deciphering the cause of the shock.
- [06:38]
Bob Bozanko
He wrote that right after Watergate. Yeah, the title was called I beg your pardon because yours was not the pardon to give and kind of appropriate. Right. Because Trump right now, even people in his own party are saying he needs to get out.
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Scott Parkin
Yeah, it's kind of fallen in. It's kind of falling apart pretty quick for the Donald.
- [06:59]
Bob Bozanko
But to get. I mean, I think we do. We're shocked. And on Wednesday, we heard a lot of that. You know, this is the greatest assault on American democracy, and this is the worst thing ever. And it's a coup and it's an insurrection. And, you know, it's. It's horrible and it's infuriating and it surely, I mean, everyone I knew was scary, you know, scared. I was getting texted emails all day as if, you know, and I was, you know, I mean, I try to be calm and I, you know, that the idea that, like, there was never anything more than a zero chance that, like, Trump was going to, like, take over the government or anything like that was never going to happen. There was. I mean, my fear was obviously that these crazies would just create a bloodbath. And the fact that they didn't, I think, says a lot about them, you know, but, yeah, we're always shocked by this, and we kind of leave it at that. And we let the media or people who have a clear interest in explaining things to, you know, make their own positions more secure do it, and we don't do it ourselves, which is why we have Green and Red podcast and media like that out there to kind of, you know, give you, you know, let's decipher this shock together. Right?
- [08:16]
Scott Parkin
Yeah, absolutely.
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Bob Bozanko
I mean, were you. I mean, how. How surprised were you that this happened?
- [08:23]
Scott Parkin
You know, to be honest, I've been. I was maybe the first hour, I was shocked to watch it as it watched. I watched it unfold on my. On my screen. To be honest, it was my first day back to work. I've been off for the holidays, and it's about halfway through the day out here on the west coast, and all of a sudden it's like these videos of, like, Trump supporters fighting Capitol Police outside the Capitol. I was like, whoa. I didn't. I always wondered whether they would really go that far. And then in the Capitol and then the sort of, like, mayhem that they created. Although it also seems like just a lot of random people walking around, just taking selfies of the thing. I know there's a lot of reactions from a lot of people out there. It seems to have caused a split within the Republican Party on a couple of different fractures where things were already cracking. And so it's probably since the beginning of the Trump administration, I've been pretty observant of the fascist movement in the US which seemed to have got fueled by his presidency, and he began sending these dog whistles out. So it wasn't that huge a surprise to me. The other thing I'll say, which is same day in at least eight state capitals, Colorado, Michigan, California, many other state capitals, actually, they had very similar activities happen. Some of them, the authorities were able to actually keep them out of the buildings. I know in, like, Oregon, though, like, a right wing Oregon legislator went and opened a back door and let them in, like, let the armed protesters or whatever you want to call them in Oregon. While I don't think they have anywhere near the sort of numbers that we saw, like this summer from the left is like, they are. The numbers they do have are, like, determined, unhinged, and sadly, the scariest part is armed.
- [10:14]
Bob Bozanko
Yeah, yeah. I don't want to come across like I'm bragging. You know, I study history, which is supposed to kind of give you some sense of what to expect. And I think it does. And Tuesday night, after the Georgia returns came in, which, you know, I'm not into electoral politics, but if you're going to have two senators, I'd rather it be those two. But I just, you know, I'd had a couple drinks and I just wrote some random goofy thoughts, trying to be, you know, both serious and funny. And my first one was Trump's charge up San Juan Hill tomorrow. Could be a blessing for the Democrats if they play it right. And later I made a reference to trump crossing the 38th parallel. So I kind of, this is what I expected. I didn't. I actually thought it would be a little more coordinated and not people gawking like they're, you know, tourists from Iowa or Ohio, you know, taking selfies and, you know, snatching souvenirs and stuff like that.
- [11:09]
Scott Parkin
I am from Texas. On their private jets.
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Bob Bozanko
Yeah, right. Yeah. This is not, that's another thing, too. I mean, the media is starting to.
- [11:15]
Scott Parkin
It.
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Bob Bozanko
This wasn't some like, MAGA mob of dedicated working class Americans. They were, they had to go to work. These were like, you get on an airplane, get a hotel in D.C. you know, all that stuff, that, that ain't for working class people, that ain't on the cheap, you know, so make that, you know, and Trump's base in the election, the only demographic group he won was people over $100,000 a year. So he is, you know, granted, you know, he speaks to these unruly mobs, vandals, and I get to call people rabble and all that. I like that because that's always thrown at us. But, you know, I'm curious, you know, I'm not big on the numbers of people there, but I am curious, like, how many people were, you know, on the Capitol grounds and how many were actually, like, there to do harm, you know, and who weren't just like. I think a lot of them were stunned that they got in. You could just see on their face, like, what the hell am I doing here? Let me take a picture. You know, and idiots are doxing themselves and things like that.
- [12:14]
Scott Parkin
So one of the things I saw, I think I saw this in the Washington Post or maybe somewhere else is it's estimated there were about a thousand of them that actually went up to the Capitol. The rally, because that was a rally. It was like March for America or whatever, which Trump actually spoke at. And he emboldened them to go. He told them to go take their country back or whatever.
- [12:34]
Bob Bozanko
And I'm going there with you.
- [12:36]
Scott Parkin
Yeah. And then they went home and had like a French lunch, or maybe it was just McDonald's. Who knows?
- [12:43]
Bob Bozanko
French fries.
- [12:44]
Scott Parkin
French fries. There we go. It's the compromise. The rally on the Mall looked bigger. And I read that they had organized buses and were bringing people in from around at least the East Coast. And then the proud boys, which are like, definitely, like a sort of like, violent arm of that movement, were definitely represented at that. And they had been like, fighting the cops the night before in D.C. as well as, like the antifa. I believe I've heard stories about that. I don't know if that's not confirmed though. And. But then, like, a lot of people, the gawkers were, you know, they were people who were like, oh, hell yeah, let's go. And then like, and then like, we're surprised that they got in. Unfortunately for four of them, they, you know, they didn't get out. But, you know, I've been reading a lot, a number of articles because there's arrests going on. The authorities have arrested at least 70 people from 20 states at this point.
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Bob Bozanko
And then.
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Scott Parkin
There'S a lot of left and antifascist networks which actually spend a lot of time tracking the left. And so, excuse me, the right. And so this is actually with all the pictures and all the social media they put out of themselves. Like, it's been a little bit of a buffet. And so there's a lot of doxing going on. There's a lot of people who are losing their jobs because they're being doxxed about being there and their employers are ashamed that they were there. And so, like, it doesn't seem like it's. I'm sure that there was, like, there's a working class element. I'm sure the spectrum of economics, from poor to rich, were there. But, like, there's a lot of male management people and they're actually losing their jobs. Lawyers, executives, vice presidents, insurance companies, things like that. And then incidentally, the other thing I would say is that there's a lot of, like, active. Active duty military being involved as part of it. Off duty, but active duty, and then also a lot of cops. And there's stories about police who are off duty who want to do this, and we're flashing their badges to get past the Capitol Police. Not that I'm excused in Capitol Police at all, because I actually feel like this was there not being a Huge security force. There was a little bit by design, but there's a lot of cops, off duty cops from around the country who were part of that.
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Bob Bozanko
Yeah, I mean, we've both been in that very area countless times. And obviously I've never gotten anywhere near those steps.
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Scott Parkin
Or when I have, it's been like I've been dressed, you know, dressed to blend in.
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Bob Bozanko
Oh, yeah, no, but I'm talking about at a protest.
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Scott Parkin
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [15:19]
Bob Bozanko
I mean, I've been in the Senate, in Congress, both.
- [15:21]
Scott Parkin
I mean, I've organized sit ins on the Hill, and I can tell you that having a bunch of Appalachian grandmothers who are protesting mountaintop removal sitting in on their congressman's office gets a faster arrest response than what we saw the other day.
- [15:38]
Bob Bozanko
Oh, no, I, you know, the. I've been surrounded by like 500 cops on motorcycles and horses, you know, which is really, really the most frightened I've ever been in a public place. Yeah, but I mean, we know that. I, you know, I think anything. America gets that now. I don't think, I think we've finally won that battle. Like, they understand that there's like these incredibly different treatments, not just racially for black and white people, but for people on the left and people on the right, for anarchists versus proud boys and so forth. The ruling class takes care of its own and they'll crush people who they don't like no matter what. But I think that's clear now. I don't think, you know, I mean, some people just don't care. But I think, I think we've kind of achieved that finally. Like, okay, it's different.
- [16:27]
Scott Parkin
I do want to say, well, there's a thing that you wanted to talk about with the kind of more well to do people who went, well, no.
- [16:34]
Bob Bozanko
I mean, I think that is important, you know, because Trump has this kind of. And the left has contributed to it by giving him this particular, I call it super monster status. Like he's this, you know, poor people's whisperer, you know, and that's, you know, he did get a majority of white votes. Absolutely. White women votes. Absolutely. But poor people aren't all white, for one thing. I mean, there's a black working class, there's a Latino working class, and we kind of tend to forget about them.
- [17:08]
Scott Parkin
And if we combine them all, they're probably a bigger portion of the working class. Yeah.
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Bob Bozanko
And so, you know, Trump took care, and it's important to keep remembering that. Right. Trump took care of a very small group of Americans, a little piece of American society. And we'll talk about that more later because once they got what they needed out of him, they just threw him overboard. Right. Because, you know, he was really destabilizing, which is what we've talked about before and I think really important to talk about again. But no, I just think it's important to understand that. And these are, I call them lumpin oligarchy. You know, these aren't nice. These aren't Brooks Brothers people, you know, from Goldman Sachs and from Citibank. They're not Jamie Dimon types. These are like the Mypillow guy, you know, people who own, you know, boat siding shops. And I've seen a couple people who own supermarkets in somewhere in Louisiana are getting doxed. You know, they, you know, people saying, don't go there anymore. People who own restaurants and so forth. So it's this, this kind of lump and oligarchy, you know, it's not. These, aren't these like nice, you know, Italian silk suit types, you know, and, you know, there are more of us than there are them. I think that's kind of. It also comes back down to that. Right. It's not. Trump does not own the allegiance of poor people in America. And we saw that last summer. I mean, as horrible as this was the other day, I mean, there were 30 million people out this summer. So they are tiny, infinitesimal, and like you said, I mean, clearly have the potential to become violent. And they're armed, which is the part. But there's not close to be close.
- [18:50]
Scott Parkin
The last couple of days I've been calling them clowns because. And if you look at some of the pictures and then maybe some of the clownery is not too different than some of the clowns we see in left protest. But like, these are like also very dangerous clowns.
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Bob Bozanko
Yeah, yeah.
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Scott Parkin
I mean, one guy, they found the guy at one guy's truck with like a number of automatic weapons and explosives.
- [19:10]
Bob Bozanko
And, well, there are two pipe bombs right. In the Capitol or in the RNC and VNC as well.
- [19:16]
Scott Parkin
No, no.
- [19:17]
Bob Bozanko
Yeah. I mean, you know, it was, I don't want to get snarky about this. I want to take it seriously because, you know, I mean, you know, I'm, I think my nature is to kind of try to, you know, and I, you know, my first. This is kind of like Black Friday, you know, at Walmart, you know, and some guy now called it like, you know, kegger when dad's out of town. And there was that element to it, you know, these kind of crazy Ass white kids just being stupid. But yeah, there were people there with weapons who wanted to do harm. They set up a gallows which ironically they wanted to, to use on pants on Mike Pence.
- [19:48]
Scott Parkin
So. And there was a lot of chatter on the right wing chat boards about potentially taking Democratic politicians hostage or even executing them. Whether they were saying that in jest or not. Speculate away. But still. And, and, and right wingers, because I actually feel like there was an element of the sort of like that crazy militia, white nationalists. Right. Who went in there armed as well.
- [20:15]
Bob Bozanko
Oh, absolutely, yeah. And you know, normally I would kind of be dismissive, like who's that fucking stupid? But, you know, you know, I mean, if you really think you're going to kidnap people and assassinate them and not get the wrath of. I mean, I don't know what they were thinking. I guess they believe, you know, I'm kind of going off path a little. There was like the woman who was killed. Ashley or whatever, you know, Ashley. Bobby, I don't, don't. I feel bad. But, but at the same time, I mean, this woman kind of like was pretty aggro about it, like, you know, but there's a woman from Georgia who went there and she got stampeded. You know, she was like caught in the crush and she was trying to die.
- [20:54]
Scott Parkin
Trampled.
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Bob Bozanko
Tripped and trampled to death.
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Scott Parkin
Yeah.
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Bob Bozanko
And you know, her family didn't really know where she was going there and they didn't know that she was. They're not really political. The end. That one broke my heart. I mean, it really, like, it made me get really kind of choked up because, like, Trump just doesn't give a. You know, these people have, like. They believed it to this point. They believed it this far. You know, some of them, it was just performative. They were just out there because they wanted to like, you know, whatever, bloodlust or whatever. But there were people there who believe that, you know, and, and, and he got him killed. Like you said, I could kill somebody on Fifth Avenue and, you know, and.
- [21:31]
Scott Parkin
My people would still love me.
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Bob Bozanko
And, and, you know, I don't know. I don't know. But that's the part there. Like, Jesus Christ, they believed it. I mean, you know, it wasn't even like they rigged the vote. It was like I wanted a land. I mean, it was just. I'm watching this in like, disbelief, like I wanted a landslide. It's the biggest, you know, like, Jesus Christ. You know, and the Supreme Court's in on it and every Republican official in America except for Ted Cruz. And you know, like people believe this, it's utterly incomprehensible, you know, and that's scary, you know, because that is, that's like a nice cult, you know, but that, that 34 year old woman from Georgia's dad, her family has to deal with that now. And he incited it, he encouraged it, he got off on it.
- [22:16]
Scott Parkin
Yeah, I'm, you know, I, I'll say that for an element that was there. I, like for me and the movements that I come out of, and I've been doing movement stuff for over 20 years now at this point is that there's a sort of lore that, and it's almost like a sort of like hero's tale about like. And some of my friends may disagree with me on this, but like, it was like I was in Seattle at the wto, the battle in Seattle, or I was at Standing Rock, you know, I went like, that's the sort of thing that people drop those moments, which I, which is like fine, fair enough. But like, I kind of feel like that this could be the same for the Right. It could be something that they build into their narrative, into their lore to like, also like kind of build up credit, you know.
- [23:01]
Bob Bozanko
Oh, absolutely, I've thought of that too. I mean, I, because you and I still watch stories, you know, and I didn't do nearly as much as you did, but you know, I still talk about stuff. Oh my God. Yeah. This is going to become legendary and pretty soon there's going to be. I heard somebody the other day said there were a hundred thousand people there, right there, 100,000 of us. And we were going to do this and that and you know. Oh yeah, absolutely. Oh no. This, they're not going away. And this, this doesn't end it. I mean, I, you know, and this is like, you know, I don't want to be a law and order guy, but, you know, you know, these people can't just be let go. You can't just say, oh, it's okay what you did, you know, because if not, they just get a boldness. What happened to Trump? Right. Nobody called him on anything for four years. And how did we get here? That's the best part of Wednesday. How did this happen? How did we get here? Who knew People for four years before.
- [23:50]
Scott Parkin
We switch the sort of like the shot going on within the ruling class. The one thing I do want to say for folks listening in our small but mighty and growing audience is that like January 17th is actually a day where the right is calling for Armed marches on state capitals. And in D.C. it's a Saturday. And so something to be aware of. And national groups are actually saying not to counter protest because they feel like there'll be an element of danger. I also know that there are going to be courageous souls who go out and do counter protest. So if you go, just be safe and don't go alone. And then they're also calling for more activity in D.C. on the January 19th and 20th. Right. On inauguration Day in the build up, too. It's probably. I also read today that they're bringing in like 10,000 troops into D.C. for that week.
- [24:38]
Bob Bozanko
Well, we were in Washington for the first big action after 911 in 2002. And it was, remember that it was just an arm. The whole city was an arm.
- [24:48]
Scott Parkin
I mean, I was in D.C. for the Inauguration Day, January 2017. And you know, this is, this is part of the double standard which, like, we all know exists. And I think people recognize this. But like Inauguration Day 2017 in D.C. there were humvees on every corner, you know, surrounding the inauguration. And that was to protect them from us, from the left. Right. We still just walked right past them. But still, you know, it's not what we saw the other day.
- [25:16]
Bob Bozanko
No. And, but like I said, I do think that now that, you know, they've kind of turned on their own. Right. They're eating their own. I mean, I think the FBI sort of been. I'd be interested to see, you know, what they're planning for this was. But I think they've been taking this serious right wing violence seriously. It seems like this year. Yeah. But you know Damn well Mitch McConnell and these guys are not gonna just sit back now, you know, now it's personal. They don't give a shit until it's personal. Right. They didn't care when Gretchen Whitner was being threatened and they never gave a damn about any of that. But now, you know, the Republicans in Georgia and the Senate Majority leader and the Vice president and Lindsey Graham and all these people are, you know, besieged. So now they'll get serious.
- [25:58]
Scott Parkin
I mean, I have the. Actually the footage of Graham being harassed in the airport today.
- [26:03]
Bob Bozanko
Oh, yeah, we could put.
- [26:04]
Scott Parkin
Let's watch that. All right, folks, here's like our favorite South Carolinian moving his way through. I think this is D.C. national traitor. You traitor. You traitor. You're a traitor, Lindsey Graham. You are a traitor to the country.
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Bob Bozanko
You know it was rigged.
- [26:28]
Scott Parkin
You know it was rigged. He's on his flip phone. You can see it's going to be like this forever. I think that's enough. But you kind of get the picture.
- [26:49]
Bob Bozanko
Oh, poor guy. I have.
- [26:51]
Scott Parkin
It's very sad.
- [26:52]
Bob Bozanko
Simply sad for him. Yeah, I mean, I should be laughing, but you know, come on. That's a malevolent evil prick.
- [27:11]
Scott Parkin
Went in bashing Trump in 2016 when he ran against him, when Trump was running against the Republican establishment, running against Lindsey Graham in the Republican primaries. As soon as Trump gets elected, Lindsey becomes his, one of his number one sycophants.
- [27:26]
Bob Bozanko
Yeah, well, and you know, I don't, I mean, that's a good segue. Unless. Were you going to add anything to that stuff? Because, I mean, actually that's one of the things I wrote here. 2016 primaries. You know, I think people, you know, well, I don't know how, but people don't remember how much unpopular. How unpopular and how much of an anti systemic candidate Trump was. And generally people like that go nowhere. So in 2016 there were actually two of those. Bernie Sanders with the Democrats and Donald Trump. And people in their own minds, like often conflated them. Right. Oh, I like Sanders and I like Trump. Right. I get it. In 2016.
- [28:05]
Scott Parkin
And they said some of the same stuff.
- [28:06]
Bob Bozanko
No, they did. They cared. They actually went out and they cared. And you know, I mean, you know, nobody wants to hear me bitch about Hillary Clinton again. But you know, she never even did that. But when Trump won, that was in this really screwed up American sense, an example of democracy. Right. The Republicans hated him. Look at the stuff all of them said. But especially Cruz and Lindsey Graham. Right? Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham destroyed him. They questioned his character. They said he was an idiot, they said he was a racist. They said he was xenophobic.
- [28:41]
Scott Parkin
And the one who hasn't emerged to the top as much, but is just as culpable and did the same thing as Rand Paul too. I just wanna put that out there.
- [28:46]
Bob Bozanko
And Paul. Right, right. So they all attacked him in the most virulent way possible while the Democrats were actually propping him up. Right. Wall street hated the guy. Hillary Clinton got 400 million or something like that from hedge fund managers and bankers. Trump got virtually nothing. He got the nomination even though everybody thought it was gonna be somebody like Jeb Bush, one of these establishment guys, he steamrolled little Marco and you know, all these guys, he ran this vicious campaign and you know, against Hillary Clinton, the greatest candidate ever, and he won. And so he won against. This would be almost like William Jennings Bryan in 1896. Nobody in the ruling class wanted this guy in the White House. Nobody wanted him near the White House. Yeah, we're talking about media. We're talking, I mean, papers that had never endorsed The Democrat in 2016 endorsed Hillary Clinton. Yeah, Wall street hated him, the media hated him. You know, there were some, you know, old line corporations. He had billionaires, he had Adelson and people like that. He had something like coal and steel money because he talked about revitalizing that lump. And oligarchs, I think these are lumpin oligarchs. These are guys who, you know, aren't in. They're not Goldman Sachs and Citibank bankers. There are people like Blankenship, I would assume, people like that. Right. Old coal and steel just dying industries, dirty industries that Trump claims he's going to revitalize. But he won. And the fact that he won against that, I mean, Bernie Sanders got nowhere near the nomination in 2016 or in 2020, whereas Trump won it. The Republican Party actually was more open to its, you know, it's people, you know, I mean, it's extreme.
- [30:34]
Scott Parkin
It was more little D. Democratic.
- [30:37]
Bob Bozanko
I mean, you know, people get pissed off at me for saying that. I'm like, I don't know how else to explain it. It was. And I think that's important to remember. And then Trump, you know, took care of him. Right. He gave him the tax cuts and he deregulated everything, which is really all they gave a damn about, you know.
- [30:51]
Scott Parkin
And Supreme Court justices.
- [30:53]
Bob Bozanko
Yes, these immense tax cuts deregulated the hell out of everything. You know that better than me because that's, that's your world, right? The environment. I mean, you know, who knows? I mean, in four years that was probably, you know, under normal circumstances that would have taken what, 50 years to get that bad. And Trump managed to do it in like four. You know, and so I think that that's part of this ruling class was against him and he won despite that. They cut a deal with him. They were always the dominant partner in that relationship, whether he knew it or not. It just didn't really matter, you know, and then, you know, and we've talked about this before, this is a. And this is, I think, why Green and Red podcast is different. Because, you know, I was listening to a podcast. You turned me onto it yesterday with Rick Perlstein, who is very well known. He's all over now. He's in the New York Times, in the Atlantic. He's on every podcast. He has written a bunch of stuff about the emergence of the new right in America from Goldwater through Reagan and you've actually read his stuff way more than I have. I've only read the Goldwater book, not the next three. And all Pearlstein could talk about was, in terms of the creation of this right wing, was the South, Southern senators, how the south turned from the Democrats to Republicans, and racism. And Pearlstein knows this shit way better than irl. I mean, I don't study that. He's been studying for 30 years, so he knows the minutiae of it better than anybody and certainly better than I do. But he has no idea about the context of it, the larger context.
- [32:21]
Scott Parkin
It's.
- [32:22]
Bob Bozanko
There's so much more to it than racist Southern senators, you know, and.
- [32:27]
Scott Parkin
Yeah, and culture.
- [32:28]
Bob Bozanko
Stuff and culture. Yeah. 1948, the Dixiecrats. And there was actually the south considered challenging the electoral certification in 1960. And, you know, Goldwater and all that. But. But there's so much more to it than that. You know, where. Where's industry in America? Where, you know, the industrial explosion after World War II, where did that take place? It didn't take place in southern Mississippi and Alabama, some in Alabama, but it was in Detroit, it was in Cleveland, it was in Gary, Indiana, it was in Youngstown, it was in Pittsburgh. Right. The south was essentially from the Civil War onward and economically colonized by the North. And that's a. It's a big element. You have to kind of, you know, and this is something we've talked about, and I don't think you're going to get it anywhere else because Pearlstein doesn't know it. Then you. He's this expert, right? And, you know, we're just. I don't know. But, you know, we're scrappy.
- [33:23]
Scott Parkin
We're scrappy buccaneers in the podcast universe, we're like the.
- [33:29]
Bob Bozanko
The star. I don't follow. I'm not a Star wars guy, but I do remember they were like. They were the good guys, right?
- [33:33]
Scott Parkin
The Rebel Alliance.
- [33:34]
Bob Bozanko
Yeah, the Rebel Alliance. Yeah, There you go. I'm showing my age. They were the good guys, right. Hey, Sonny, bring me in a root beer. But that's what you're gonna get here, this kind of understanding. The ruling class made a deal with Trump. They were appalled by him. Remember after Charlottesville, how outraged they were? But they wanted tax cuts, they wanted deregulation, they wanted crazy people on the Supreme Court.
- [34:05]
Scott Parkin
This is a pretty mainstream author, but I read the. When I was on break this summer, I read the Woodwards book about the first couple, the first year and a half of the Trump administration and also the campaign. And like, after Charlottesville, after Charlottesville, Gary Cohn, who was the head of the economic advisors for Trump, and he's Jewish, and he was appalled by what happened in Charlottesville, particularly the one video of the young white dudes marching through the University of Virginia with tiki torches singing the Jews will not replace us. And he was going to resign. And other people in the administration and the party basically talked him out of it because they knew that they were going to be able to think about the economic policy you're going to be able to implement. We're going to be able to get this tax cut, we're going to be able to get in their version of it. It's trickle down economics and it's going to help everybody with these Republican tax and economic policies. And so that's just one example. But that's the deal that they make to, you know, enhance this to further this economic project of neoliberal trickle down, blah, blah, bullshit.
- [35:16]
Bob Bozanko
You know, I mean, Trump in their world was a figurehead. You know, He, I mean, McConnell was the kind of, you know, the key conduit there. Later, I think Barr had. Not in the economic stuff, but Barr had a role to play. But I mean, Trump, no one took him. You know, he had no ideology other than nihilism and narcissists and all that other stuff.
- [35:35]
Scott Parkin
Trumpism.
- [35:37]
Bob Bozanko
Trumpism, yeah, exactly. You know, it's like Peronisma, right, In Argentina, although Juan Peron actually like had social programs for the Argentine people, which Trump never did, even though he talked about it. Right.
- [35:51]
Scott Parkin
He wanted that $2,000 check, though.
- [35:54]
Bob Bozanko
Well, give him that. You know, Joe Manchin doesn't.
- [35:58]
Scott Parkin
That's true.
- [35:58]
Bob Bozanko
That Democratic majority really was important, wasn't it? Anyway, but this kind of. And I think we talked about this in ruling class 101, which we did. Was it just right after the election?
- [36:10]
Scott Parkin
It was in like second or third week in November, I think.
- [36:13]
Bob Bozanko
Yeah. So I mean, the point we made then was that, you know, it could get ugly. We never denied, you know, that Trump was a dangerous, crazy ass guy, but that, you know, things were under control and that. And that happened this week again, you know, and I think it's important to reinforce that. And for one thing, I mean, you know, you probably all know the details of it already. Dick Cheney, and believe me, when I heard that, I was like, whoa, Dick Cheney actually got on the horn and talked to all of the living secretaries of state.
- [36:44]
Scott Parkin
Nine others, defense.
- [36:46]
Bob Bozanko
I'm sorry, defense secretaries, nine others. So the 10 of them, including Donald Rumsfeld, including Rummy Rummy. Yeah. At Cheney's initiative, they put together an op ed, essentially warning Trump not to do anything crazy with the election and telling the military to stay out. And we've talked about this before, you know that when they do stuff like that, they're in contact with people who are currently on active duty as chiefs of staff, as operations officers and things like that. Right.
- [37:22]
Scott Parkin
Chair of the Joint Chiefs, Chair of the Joint.
- [37:23]
Bob Bozanko
I mean, these guys, yeah, they were just in office. I mean, Obama's people all, you know, they haven't been away that long, so that clearly was an indicator. And Mark Milley has, you know, apologized for what happened in June, which I've never. And this is one area I do know pretty well, as well as pretty much anybody in my world at least. And I've never heard anything like that. JCS chair apologizing for a public action. That's unheard of, you know, and you know that. You know, and then Trump with the whole losers and what do they call them? Suckers and losers. And losers. Yeah, I'm sure he probably thinks that about the people who were at the.
- [38:00]
Scott Parkin
Capitol about, like, like this is like, you know, sacred ground for the, for the military and the, and the ruling class and Main Street America is like, say that about D Day people who died at D Day at the Normandy landing.
- [38:14]
Bob Bozanko
Well, and you know, going into the Capitol for most people would be like going into Arlington. I mean, would you go into Arling Cemetery and destroy the place? Right. So, I mean, the military reviles that. Now there are military people who, I mean, they're crazy ass right wing, General Walker types. Right. In the military. Right. So I'm not by any means saying they'll hate them, but, but you know, the people who matter, and that's what's important. And the left looks at, I keep saying it's like a cat playing with a ball of string. The left looks at Trump's tweets and they're obsessed with them. They hear the crazy, stupid shit he says and they're obsessed with it. They see him with crazy people and that's how they determine what's going on in America. He's a fascist. There's gonna be a coup and you gotta look behind the curtain and you see that there's a crazy old guy there. You just need a dog to pull the curtain away. Right. And this is what the left, I think, has never understood. Trump is this insane figure, this spectacle. And if you're into theory, check out Guy Debord, who's a French Marxist, the Society of the Spectacle, he wrote in the 1960s, which is the perfect explanat, is a damn good explanation of the Trump years. And the military was never going to go lay it on the line for Donald J. Trump. It just never was gonna happen. And they made that clear again this week and today. In fact, Nancy Pelosi this morning met with, or at least talked to Millie about keeping Trump restrained. Now, Trump does. He's Commander in chief. He can, he can issue any order he wants. And, you know, anybody in the service is constitutionally bound to carry it out. They're not going to do that. I mean, we saw it, we've seen that before with Nixon at the end, you know, and as you pointed out, you know, they, Pompeo and o' Brien are still around for that reason.
- [40:03]
Scott Parkin
Yeah.
- [40:03]
Bob Bozanko
You know. Yeah.
- [40:05]
Scott Parkin
There was a news story circulated, folks, this week that Pompeo and o' Brien were both looking at resigning because we've seen a wave of resignations out of the White House, including Transportation Secretary and Education Secretary. But, and, but like, you know, it's reported that former national security officials asked them to stay mostly because someone needs to keep him in check for the next 12 days.
- [40:30]
Bob Bozanko
Yeah, no, I mean, he could do harm. There's, there's absolutely, effectively, I just, I don't think there's any chance that they're going to, you know, I mean, there's no one left. I mean, you have him and Rudy Giuliani and his son and Sidney Powell and I guess Meadows are still on board. Right. But it's, there's not Stephen Miller.
- [40:51]
Scott Parkin
Stephen Miller's still there.
- [40:52]
Bob Bozanko
Oh, I haven't even heard anything. I forgot all about him. He's.
- [40:59]
Scott Parkin
Yeah, he's, he's still, he's, he's gonna be the last to go.
- [41:02]
Bob Bozanko
Yeah. So you had the military this circular put out by the, the, the 10 living ex defense secretaries. And then, and you kept sending me.
- [41:14]
Scott Parkin
This, including Mark Esper, the most recent one, who Trump fired after the election.
- [41:17]
Bob Bozanko
Fired. Right. Just, just weeks ago. Right. And months ago. And then you've been sending me stuff all week from, from Wall street, you know, from our, our favorite people. Right. And you know, obviously it's telling that, you know, since Biden won, the stock market's just been going batshit and it's reached all time highs. And these business groups which in November warned, I mean, they, they warned Trump to the point where they said we will withhold money from Republican candidates in the future. That's, that's, that's A nuclear bomb for that. In that world.
- [41:51]
Scott Parkin
There's. There's an academic at Yale who has convened, I, I think up to like 100 CEOs in some form or fashion.
- [41:59]
Bob Bozanko
Sonnenberg.
- [42:00]
Scott Parkin
Right, Sonnenberg. And he's like at the Yale Business School. And he polled them after Wednesday and at least 33 told him that they were going to end financing to Republican senators over all of this.
- [42:12]
Bob Bozanko
The big one, though, was the national association of Manufacturers. That is stunning. If you know anything about nam, they are the people who brought Taft Hartley to the world. That is the, I mean, the Chamber of Commerce and the Business Roundtable are moderates compared to, to the national association of Manufacturers. I want to kind of get it right because this is one time where you want the, the words, right? The precise words. But the national association of Manufacturer on Wednesday as these vandals and thugs and, you know, rabble. I get the. I love using those words.
- [42:48]
Scott Parkin
It's pretty immediate. It's very immediate.
- [42:50]
Bob Bozanko
It's very. Yeah, right. And they put out a press release with the title. If you ever see a press release, it has a title on the top right with the theme of the Represse. And the title was Manufacturers Call on Armed Thugs to Cease Violence at Capitol. That's like, man, I. When you send me that, it just like, wow. And then they said, anyone indulging conspiracy theories to raise campaign dollars is complicated, which was not subtle, directed at Holly and Cruz, among others, but I think especially that.
- [43:29]
Scott Parkin
And then called. Go ahead.
- [43:31]
Bob Bozanko
No, no, no, no, no.
- [43:32]
Scott Parkin
And then called on the Cabinet and Vice President Pence, Mike Pence, to invoke the 25th Amendment, which seems to be off the table now because they're all chicken shits.
- [43:39]
Bob Bozanko
But that's why they're resigning. Yeah. So they don't have to vote on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They have their. The best is Betsy DeVos. Right. Who's brother's workers were just pardoned for slaughtering Iraqi civilians. Right. But Betsy DeVos is appalled by what she saw. You know, brothers.
- [43:57]
Scott Parkin
Erik Prince, former CEO of Blackwater.
- [44:00]
Bob Bozanko
Blackwater. But when the national association of Manufacturers, like I said, that's the Taft Hartley people. And the head of the NAM is a Republican operative who worked for, I forget, a well known from North Carolina, I think, Republican congressman and also worked for the rnc. He's raised gazillions of dollars for Republicans. So when he comes out and says that. And then the Dow went up like 437points on Wednesday while the capital is being ransacked. The Dow Reached its all time record high. It went up 230something the next day. And then the final, you know, the final bomb, the kind of the siege of DN BN Fu kind of moment was the Wall Street Journal with the official, you know, the official organ of the ruling class called for Trump to resign. Yeah, that's a hell of a week when you can piss off the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Secretaries of Defense, the national association of Manufacturers and the Wall Street Journal.
- [45:01]
Scott Parkin
And there's one other actually important economic entity slash political entity which also has like called for things to happen is the Cokes. The Coke sort of doubts.
- [45:10]
Bob Bozanko
That's right, Charles Coke. That's right. Who has been, I think, you know, these guys as they get closer to dying. But Coke has been for about several months now really, you know, kind of going on this public may occult but tour, you know, with regard to Trump and you know, made it clear from the beginning he was fine with Joe Biden, which, you know, who wouldn't be, you know. Yeah. I mean the Democrats certainly are not a threat to the system.
- [45:38]
Scott Parkin
It should also be noted just to jump back to the Wall Street Journal is that that's actually owned by Rupert, Rupert Murdoch. And so in a sense that's like the sort of dawn of right wing media given his blessing with his most establishment, most respected news entity, which is not Fox. That's, you know, that's fucking red meat for a bunch of, for the people who were ransacking the Capitol. But the most respected conservative newspaper in the country calling for this, and that's the voice of Murdoch, just to be really clear about that.
- [46:13]
Bob Bozanko
Oh, absolutely.
- [46:14]
Scott Parkin
That wouldn't have happened without Rupert saying it.
- [46:16]
Bob Bozanko
Or remember how much Tony had to agonize over Big Pussy before he okayed the hit because he knew way ahead of time that Pussy was the rat. But he couldn't do it until he had that final proof. And that's what happened. They just, Trump had to go, you know, they had to have him whacked.
- [46:32]
Scott Parkin
You know, to kind of top off this bit about the ruling class. If we're done is a quote that was in the New York Times today, which was from Billy Piper, who's the former chief of Staff to Mitch McConnell. This is not a conservative, this is not a liberal person, which is Trump is a political David Koresh, who you may remember was the head of the Branch Davidian cult who died in a terrible fire and murdered all his followers. He sees the incoming and wants to burn it all down and take as many with him as Possible. And so, you know, there was a article this week by Mike Davis, social theorist, big hero of ours, who's basically said there's a. There's a realignment going on and there's a split in the Republican Party between these establishment Republicans and this sort of like, rabid right. And, you know, that's a. The quote sort of like spells it out to me.
- [47:25]
Bob Bozanko
And to brag a bit, I'd say that, like, when you're on the same side as Mike Davis, you're doing things the right way. So another reason to stay on top of things with us. But, I mean, you know, the last thing I want to say is, you stay calm. I mean, we have been like, just living on adrenaline for four years. And, you know, I don't.
- [47:48]
Scott Parkin
Our Twitter apps. Our adrenaline and our Twitter apps.
- [47:51]
Bob Bozanko
Yeah. And I don't, you know, I don't write and say the things I do to create, like a spectacle. I, you know, I may not be the most diplomatic and tactful person doing it, but I, I just always wanted people to stay calm, you know, I mean, that's why I study history, to try to learn something. And this stuff does end and it works out. You know, you look back on it and, you know, Watergate had the same hysterics. Right. He survived it. Right? 911 terrified everybody. They survived it. You know, doesn't mean things are good. What it means is that, you know, it's going to be over. And what it really means is, you know, you stay calm and you get. Get the hell out into the streets. Do whatever you can. I mean, we've talked and written about that a ton. We've given like dozens of concrete things you can do. Go mutual aid or there are tenants unions starting up that. Which is very cool all over the country right now because of evictions. There's unions, there are organizing drives at Amazon and a lot of other. Google just had a successful union certification, I believe one of the Google workplaces, you know, just whatever, just don't let fear paralyze you, which is what a lot of lefties have done for four years now. They have given Trump oxygen with all this shrieking about fascism and coups, and they've paralyzed people into fear and anxiety society. And that's what we cannot do. Because if the right wing is going to be in the streets, I mean, the cops will protect the ruling class, you know, but. But if they're going to be, we may have to. We're going to have to stop them. Hopefully not in the Streets, but it's going to be up to us.
- [49:28]
Scott Parkin
Yeah, I want to say, I want to say to folks that like the kind of like best way to engage is not that, you know, get, get off your key, get off your computer, get off your keyboard, except when you're listening to us and engage in strategic actions. Maybe right now is not the time to confront the fascist. Maybe it is. It's going to be a situation by situation thing. But actually just be smart and strategic and also don't do it alone. Form a group. Go with a buddy. This week, our friends at Shutdown DC which is a sort of like anarcho direct action group or like group of groups in D.C. you know, they went and did a home demonstration at Josh Hawley's house on Monday about like, you know, protect democracy, don't do the things that you're going to do. And you know, it caused a lot of ripples. It actually threw the right wing. I think they did it the. I think they did it a day or two before.
- [50:23]
Bob Bozanko
I think it was Monday night. Yeah, yeah.
- [50:25]
Scott Parkin
The invasion of the Capitol by the Trump people and you know, it really kind of threw, from all reports is like it not just, it was, it got a lot of press attention, it made the Washington Post, but it also got like a, it like threw the right wingers off a little bit too. And so like be smart and strategic. Like we have a lot of, we have a lot going for us. There's a lot of smart, strategic people have been doing campaigns and have built movements for decades. And so just I want to encourage, encourage that. And then I also want to just flag to which is that there's the state is actually the state and right wing media is doing everything it can to sort of like conflate anarchists with what happened at the Capitol, you know, which is saying that was actually infiltrate antifa infiltrators who herded the Trump people over to the Capitol to do that. Which I would actually say I'm a person who's actually participate in direct actions where we've like led people off on marches to go do things. And my suspicion is that that's more like what the proud boys and some of these white nationalists who were like in the crowd did because it is. There is strength in numbers. And so to get a lot of people who like that woman from Georgia who just went in and was taking pictures not knowing what's going on, but it's like acts as cover. But I just want to say that there's a lot of conflating going on of, like, the left and the right. We've heard stories about D.C. police actually merging data sets of people from Wednesday in with leftists, people arrested in D.C. during the uprising. A friend of mine put out on Twitter that even though she doesn't live in D.C. and hadn't been there in months, was getting called by the media saying that she was arrested in D.C. capitol Hill, and she got four different calls from journalists or calls from four different journalists, and the D.C. police had sent her their way. Sent them her way. And so it's like there is this conflating going on, and they probably will use this as an opportunity to mess with us. So also be smart and strategic there. Maybe we'll do another show on something like that in the future. But just to kind of put it out there, be smart and strategic, organized, be bold. Also be safe.
- [52:40]
Bob Bozanko
And the last thing I do briefly is we're in a pandemic with a new and more infectious strain. So take care of. Of each other. And if, you know, you don't want to, I mean, it's a bad time. So no one's trying to guilt trip anybody about doing things. But, you know, Covid, right now, I mean, until that's somehow addressed, you know, none of this is really possible. You know, we have to save lives. There's nothing more fundamental to what we believe in than that.
- [53:10]
Scott Parkin
So, yeah, I'm going to close, and I have a thing I want to close with, which is, you know, talking about these clowns, but dangerous clowns and talking about organizing. I want to actually talk about someone who just passed last week, about a week ago, who actually was the real deal when it came to organizing and making change in the world. And her name was Carrie Dan, and she was Western Shoshone, and she was a land rights and environmental activist and indigenous. She died last week at the age of 88. She and her sister Mary. So Carrie and Mary dan, they were two Western Shoshone women who since 1973, had protested US governments to attempt and seize their indigenous land and violate treaty rights. They were actually involved in attempts to block Northern Nevada mining projects. They were staunch opponents of shipping nuclear waste to Yucca Mountain in southern Nevada and then also sought relief for tribal residents who were being affected by nuclear weapons testing. And so that, you know, these are, you know, these women were the kind of forefront of, like, environmental and indigenous rights organizing in Nevada for 25 years. Nevada and actually other parts of the West. And even, you know, she. She was doing things up until the end, there was actually an attempt in the 2000 and tens to expand one of the biggest gold mines in North America by this evil Canadian company called Barrick Gold. And they were trying to expand it next to the mountain that the tribe considered sacred. And it was the home to several Western Shoshone creation stories. In the water running beneath its sacrament was really important to balance and power of life. And a quote from her in 2011 was this area is where the seasons of the year were named in the time before people were here. And so I want to just say that this is a long struggle that we're in, and we're in these systemic crises right now doesn't mean we're always going to be in them. Well, we may always be in climate crisis, but this is a long struggle. And just keep it real, keep safe and be smart and strategic.
- [55:41]
Bob Bozanko
A special thank you to the person who suggested and inspired this show today.
- [55:47]
Scott Parkin
Yep, you have been listening to the Green and Red podcast. You can follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, become a subscriber at YouTube, become a patron@patreon.com greenred podcast or donate. Or you can donate to us@greenredpodcast.org on the support page. And it's been great talking to you and we'll be talking again soon. It.