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Green & Red: Podcasts for Scrappy Radicals
Growing American Destruction in the Middle East, w/ Fadi Kafeety (G&R 477)
01:39:57
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to Green and Red Scrappy Politics for Scrappy People, a regular podcast on radical environmental and anti capitalist politics. Brought to you by Bob Bozanko and Scott Parkins. It's Bob Bozenko, co host of the Green and Red Podcast. Scott is away on assignment and I'm really excited to be talking to someone who I know quite well, a really dear comrade and friend and a frequent guest on Green and Red Podcast, an expert in Middle Eastern history and politics. This is Fadi Kafiti, who is completing his PhD dissertation at the University of Houston in Arab Studies. And so once more, as always, welcome to the Green Red Podcast.
- [00:46]
B
Fadi. Thank you so much, Bob. It's always a pleasure to be here.
- [00:53]
A
I have to say, and I tell everybody this, I have learned more about Middle Eastern Arab history from you than in everything I've read collectively. So I really do appreciate the education I've gotten from you as well. And much of that involved just sitting around with a glass of wine talking, like we're going to do now. So I really do appreciate it. So, man, there's so much going on here. We've recently done a couple shows on Iran, just like in the last couple weeks with Iskander and Afshin, who both written really good books on it. So we don't have to focus on that. And that's not really the area that you focus on either, but we've covered that. But obviously it's much bigger than that. There's, there's a regional war here that, that in fact has been going on for quite some time, but the media is finally kind of acknowledging it. Right. So I guess how we could start with like, how is this different? Like, we've done shows, I've talked to you about this last summer. I talked to A. Skander and our friend Nate about this. Right. So we've talked about the regional context, but now we have like actual conflict, actual hostilities going on. So how is this different, would you say, than what we've seen in the past?
- [02:02]
B
Thank you, Bob. First of all, let me just preface by saying I'm honored to be on the show again. Once again, I really wish under better circumstances. I'm truly humbled by what you said, especially because I consider you as a pedagogical mentor and somebody I always look up to as an expert on US imperialism and foreign policy. So to be able to be here and speak to your guests is always, is wonderful. It's interesting because you and I obviously wanted to have a discussion actually about my research, which is anti colonial Revolutions on Vietnam. But of course, the circumstances call for more immediate and current analysis. And you know, I do want to state to our viewers that, you know, as a historian and training, you know, we usually rely on archival sources to settle and once events end. But now, you know, obviously given the mass wars and the plunging of the region into an all about war, which might even threaten to become a global war if we, if, if things continue to deteriorate like this, it's a responsibility of all scholars to emerge out of their comfort and their comfort zone and their, their areas of expertise and try and give whatever analysis and commentary they can. So please, please do excuse me in advance. I mean, not everything I might say would be correct, might not hold true, as you know, developments are rapidly changing by the moment, but we can at least give a generic overview and have discussions based on there. You know, Bob, I want to begin by saying instead of actually starting off with what is different about this war, let's talk about the constants of this war. Just to begin, the biggest constant that is still ongoing is that there is a genocide in Palestine happening. Every single escalation, regional war, geopolitical crisis that has unfolded because since then is a direct result of Israel's unabated genocide in Palestine, which has been fully supported and funded by the United States and to a secondary degree by NATO allies and European imperial powers. That is the one main constant. And I think this will be a theme that will continue to discuss as this episode goes on and maybe even in future episodes, because part of the issue that a lot of analysis and analysts and commentators tend to have is that they try to isolate regional developments from the main ongoing question, which is the question of Palestine. So that's one dimension. The other dimension, and this is actually a corollary to this, is that the Zionist settler state is on the expansion it is operating in, in the most horrific and vicious ways that we have seen it operate in its 78 years of existence. Now it is engaged in multiple open confrontations with numerous countries against Palestine and Lebanon and now even Iran. So these are the constants that I think we must anchor all of our analysis in because, because any attempt to diverge or, or move away from this actually underscores the main crisis that's underway. And this is all of the like, every action that has happened since then can be traced as a derivative to the Israeli occupation of Palestine and the regional expansionist war that it's undertaking. So there's that dimension now in the what's, what's different and what's new and unprecedented in this ongoing regional war that's taken place ever since the United States and Israel announced Operation Epic Fury against Iran. Is that okay? For the first time in one year, in almost one year, in 10 months, the US and Israel are going into direct open warfare against Iran. So that is, that is one dimension that is, that is new now, but not unique. The unique one actually, is that because of this belligerency and because of this unchecked imperial aggression that signals actually a wider trend in US Imperial domination and as we can see, like in Venezuela, and will be regretfully very soon to be seen in Cuba, is that the theater of operations of these wars extend way beyond their boundaries. And this illegal war that the United States undertook with Israel has now bled into most of the Arabian Peninsula and is plunged the region into crisis and also threatens major global economic catastrophes because of it. And, you know, we can discuss these consequences and implications as the discussion progresses.
- [06:51]
A
Yeah, I think that's an important point because, I mean, you have to go back kind of to the Six Day War, the Ramadan War, to see this kind of regional conflict here. And the first point you made obviously can't be stressed enough that the, Israel's genocide really kind of facilitated this. It set into motion increase the skids. Right. For everything that's come thereafter, which is why in the U.S. you know, it's really a bipartisan war. Right. I mean, Biden owns this as much as anybody else does. So, you know, this, this is where we are. I have a question, because in the Western media, Iran kind of gets singled out. I mean, we have this obviously Orientalist approach to, to the entire region, but Iran gets a particular level of venom. And you know, you get the, you know, the discussions of their religious lunatics and they're fundamentalist and this and that. And you know, it's, it's not a liberal democracy, obviously. Right. But in the region, how do the Arab states view Iran? Just in general, you know, you're, I mean, the great advantage you have over me or anybody is that, you know, you can read the, the media from the region, you're familiar with it, you know, resources, because, you know, if you just follow the New York Times, it's, it's pointless.
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B
Right.
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A
How do you, how do, how do people, whether it be the analyst or the, the thinking class or just basic people in the streets, like from what you understand, how do they view Iran?
- [08:13]
B
Yeah. So it's actually a very contradictory and complicated interpretation of how the region is, how we can analyze the situation Actually, unfortunately, most of the Middle east is dominated by corporate media interests that are run by state enterprises, primarily the regional Gulf monarchies. I mean, the predominant news outlets are controlled by the Qatari state, by the UAE and by Saudi Arabia. And this, this regional media competition, so to speak, has had grave crises on how they viewed and reported on regional, regional wars, especially say Syria and during the Arab Spring and the like. So there's a contradiction to that. The street obviously understands that this is not an act of Iranian aggression against the region. The street understands that this is a defensive response and that this is calculated, calculated targeting of infrastructure that is deliberately being used to indiscriminately attack Iran. Now on the other hand, on the converse side, you have the Arabic media outlets or the Arabic language media outlets that are openly calling these Iranian hostilities or Iranian aggression. And it tends to ebb and flow. I mean, in places like Bahrain, for instance, you can see this more pronounced in Lebanon as well. And it bleeds out into many forms because they attempt to tie Hezbollah's resistance in Lebanon as being part of foreign controlled conspir. In places like Jordan, where my family lives and where I have ties to, they call these, Iran's actions are referred to as like outside aggressions and threats. So it's complicated. It really is complicated. There is, unfortunately, there is no free press that so to speak, exists in the Middle East. But the same can be said about the United States too in this moment. I mean, it's dominated by corporate media interests. So in many ways you see, see a reflection of what the US political scene is projecting, mapping onto the region, except with less Zionist overtones. Obviously the media in the region has taken more hostile approaches to Iran because of the operations they've been conducting against US military infrastructure in the region. And of course there are reasons for this that we can go into, but it's not unison in any way, so to speak. But and if I may add to this as well, I mean, you're seeing repression against those who are speaking out against or trying to defend the actions that Iran has taken. So for instance, in Jordan, two members of the Central Committee of the Jordanian Communist Party, Dr. Omar Awad, and I'm trying to remember who the second committee member is. Osama Abu Zane, who's the podcast commentator, and Jordan have both been arbitrary, fairly arrested without charge. And there's reason to believe that this is because of the party's outspoken support of the, of Iran's actions in the region. But it's yet to be determined because it's just Only been, they've only just been arrested. And also this is something we can continue discussion as well. Part of the media blackout and censorship, which actually occupies a big theme in the ongoing regional war now has led to a lot of a severe level of censorship and restriction on reporting, especially in countries like, like the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia, for instance, with hefty fines imposed on those who do comment and reporters even speak out on what is currently taking place.
- [12:18]
A
The same thing Israel's doing.
- [12:20]
B
Exactly. Actually, I mean, this is a topic we need to dive into more now because actually the so called only democratic country in the region is actually arbitrarily arresting, detaining, censoring. There are many videos we've seen actually of Israeli security forces taking people's phones and searching them at the sites of debris and the like. So, and this is a reflection obviously of what happened in 2025, if you recall, a Fox News contributor was actually held for five days in Israeli security force prisons for reporting on the locations of where bombs, rockets were landing and the extent of the damages. So I think in this day and age we, we tend to rely a lot on alternative media sources like podcasts, like Instagram, social media. But even they actually have major flaws and limitations. Especially in this current moment, we're seeing the proliferation of such a high level of artificial intelligence and false reporting in ways that we had never anticipated it being. So it sometimes even questions your own sanity and your own, your own, your own conscious as to whether these are real or not. I've been sent so many videos where I look at them and for a moment you believe it to be true. But once, you know, it takes a couple of moments to realize that this is fake. And they proliferate, they circulate and you know, by the time it becomes exposed as artificial intelligence, it could have made such a profound impact all across the world.
- [14:01]
A
How many times have I said something to you saying is this real?
- [14:04]
B
So, yeah, I mean, I even question it myself. You know, I mean, we see some, some, some, some explosions and attacks that seem to, it really obfuscates reality from simulation in this moment. And I think it's very important to understand and assess the dangers of technology in, in these kinds of war situations.
- [14:28]
A
Continue on this because another thing we're seeing here in the U.S. u.S. Media, and you're familiar with that too. I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but is this kind of sense of like outrage and you know, kind of curiosity over why Iran is doing this? Why is Iran Striking at Bahrain. Why is Iran trying to hit a target in Kuwait? And you know, American liberals, like the, you know, American liberals love Jon Stewart and he went on this ridiculous rant about, you know, the Arab states. Why is Iran. And then, you know, Rachel Maddow, who is just utterly dismal, you know, so it's not just like the Trump people. This is kind of, you know, so let's, let's talk about that. Like, why is Iran targeting these other Arab states?
- [15:10]
B
Yeah, sure. Before I discuss that, I want to just say briefly, I think it's horrific how liberal media pundit commentators, especially those who tend to posture themselves as being part of the progressive strain of political commentary and satire, like Jon Stewart so openly and brazenly making sexist jokes and celebrating the death of a leader like Ali Khamenei. Yeah. For instance, I'm not sure if you watched that skit, but he said like,
- [15:39]
A
I didn't see that. I saw some other stuff he's done.
- [15:42]
B
Yeah, he said something around like something to the tune of he was assassinated at the age of 86. So that will, that will upset all the virgins waiting for him in heaven or something like that, which is so, so crass and so disgusting. Yeah.
- [15:56]
A
The difference between like him and Bill Maher is not that great, despite what liberals want to believe.
- [16:03]
B
So remind me. I'm very sorry.
- [16:06]
A
Well, no, I mean Americans, like, because one of the key points obviously from the right wing and from the Trump much the Democrats are saying the same thing. Right. Is, well, you know, if this is about Israel, why is Iran attacking Saudi? Why is Iran attacking Kuwait? Why is Iran striking Bahrain or Dubai? So why, why is, why are those targets?
- [16:25]
B
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So apologies for having to read the question I got, you know, I operate,
- [16:31]
A
it's, there's always like a three or four detours before I get to the point.
- [16:35]
B
Yeah, of course, of course. I mean, the very simple basic answer for why they are targeting all of these sites is very simple. There are around 20 United States bases positioned in the Middle east alone in the Arab speaking countries of West Asia alone in, in Iraq, in Jordan, in Saudi, Qatar, Oman, Bahrain, the uae. And that's not even counting the military bases that are stationed in Pakistan, the one stationed in Afghanistan, Afghanistan, I might be mistaken. Since 2021, in, in Turkey and Azerbaijan that all have their weapons targeted and trained towards Iran. Iran has restrained for the longest time from retaliating or taking any acts against these, these sites. Of course, there has been a strained and rocky relationship between Iran and The countries of the Arabian Gulf and Peninsula, which of course has a historical precedent to it. But the economic, geographic, political, religious, social and anthropological ties that bind the two economic ties as well are way stronger and deeper and diverse than any of the regional hostilities that might have had their ebbs and flows in recent decades. But the real reason is that these are the sites out of which America's attacks against Iran are being waged. They're being waged from there. They're being waged from occupied Palestine in the state of Israel, and they're being waged from the naval fleets that were brought all the way from the Caribbean and other outposts from the region to the Arabian Gulf and Peninsula directly targeted at Iran. Of course, not to be satirical at all, but I'm sure you've seen this meme that had circulated for years is that look at Iran. Why did put it, why did it place its country right next to all of these United States bases? And I mean this only goes to show that all of these bases are supposedly meant to offer protection and stability to the regions and its rulers and their monarchies, but actually they're proving to be the complete opposite. They're a major liability and as the cradle media reported yesterday, they're actually a meet a magnet for, for escalation of regional war. The secondary headquarters of the Central Command is actually State is stationed in Qatar. There are tens of thousands of US security forces from the Navy, Air Force, military, the CIA mercenaries positioned all across these regions are major transit hubs for not only capital, but for the US's imperial arsenal. Naval ships pass through their military supplies pass through there. So they are in terms of international laws of war, these are military targets. And Iran is viewing them as in response to sites that are actually being used to indiscriminately target and attack Iranian the Iranian population, they've resorted to defensive mechanisms. Yes, it is the case that Iran has conducted limited operations against non military outposts in the region, but it is conducting them according to their rationale as attempting to make these regions make these countries and their monarchies feel the pain and the suffering that they're inflicting onto their own people in Iran. I mean, Iran is not bombing hospitals, they're not bombing schools. These are all acts that the United States and Israel are deliberately and openly doing without any remorse and even so much so claiming that Iran somehow magically got their hold of Tomahawk missiles and targeted them at their own civilian institutes and sites. Iran is targeting airfields, they're targeting communication sites, they're targeting satellite outposts, they're targeting bomb depots, they're targeting refineries that are being used directly to fuel support the U. S. Imperial mission in the region. So the, the. These are calculated, and these are calculated responses, in my opinion, by Iran. And they're also doing this after years and years of restraint. I mean, the bases, multiple bases in the region actually predated the Islamic Revolution of 1979. Like the air base in that exists in Riyadh and the, the naval base in Bahrain. The naval base was actually taken over in 1971 after the British left from the Arabian Gulf and peninsula. Eight years before, seven years before the Iranian monarchy was. Was overthrown by popular revolution in Saudi Arabia. I think it was 1947, if I'm not mistaken, that the first air base came up. But all of these bases and the subsequent ones that have emerged in the late 90s and early 2000s in the region have all been used to apply maximum pressure on Iran. And let us not forget, Iran has been under economic siege. It's been under political siege. It has been isolated and cornered in every single diplomatic attempt. I mean, we've seen, you know, this goes way beyond my time as, like, I was a little kid when, when Iran's nuclear negotiations started in 19, in 2002, 2003. And we've just seen the torpedoing in the literal sense of them with Israel's
- [22:40]
A
targeted assassinations of scientists. And yeah, it's. And that's how you made an important point, which I think, like, again, Americans, what Iran is doing is legitimate. According to international law. You are allowed to, you know, we have this bizarro idea about international law. It's like denying genocide. Right. Well, they didn't kill enough people. Like, genocide doesn't require. It doesn't require any deaths, actually. Right. But. And so you know what? Iran is doing it. These are legitimate military targets. The other thing I'll say, and we can talk more about this because again, like, I'm asking all of these based on Western media because that's kind of what I'm getting and I'm looking for other sources, but as you pointed out, they're. They're not that easy to figure out. Right. But it does seem in, in these places that, that Iran is targeted, that the targets are pretty precise. You're not seeing what the US Might call collateral damage there. Like you point out, they're not blowing up schools or blowing up hospitals or any of that. And is that kind of something that people in the region. All right, we talked there's about three things in this. So I'll go through them. Right. And we can go back to them. But because we talked about how the leadership in the region. Right. Is, is not, you know, they're anti Iranian.
- [23:48]
B
Right.
- [23:49]
A
But within the, the street, if we still use that term, it's, it's very different. And I saw recently, and again, I don't know if it was real or not. Was it in Dubai where there was a massive march in support. It was an anti Israeli march, but it was also in support of Iran. I don't, maybe it was one of the other states.
- [24:06]
B
I don't think it's Dubai because unfortunately the United Arab Emirates, a political expression, it's outlawed. So you know, the 90 of the population is actually foreign, are on foreign visas and by law, if you're protesting or any political expressions result in the cancellation of your, of your status in the country. So I don't think it was there.
- [24:28]
A
Yeah, but is there a sense among people there just kind of the average folks in the region, you know, is, is there a sense that like it's about time somebody fought back and are they not really that upset that these particular targets. Because like in Saudi it was the CIA headquarters that was hit, which doesn't say a lot for American defenses. Right. I mean, how, I guess just generically, rather than ask these specific questions, how is this playing out when there are these strikes? You know, we know the leadership there, you know, we know how they feel. Right. These are, some of these people are actually Zionists themselves. Right. But how in general is this going? I mean, are people angry? Do people understand it? Is there some sense that like, you know, they're not, you know, they're kind of rooting for Iran, to use a vernacular, you know, kind of a slang term, you know.
- [25:20]
B
Well, let me, let me dissect it and take multiple approaches to this. Let me just say briefly first up that it might, might not be the best characterization to say that the leaders are anti Iran because the Omani government and the Qatari government were at the forefront of actually trying to secure diplomatic.
- [25:42]
A
If you want to talk about that, because I was specifically going to talk about the negotiations that took place literally until Trump bombed Iran the last week, two weeks ago, whatever. 10 days ago.
- [25:51]
B
Yes, yeah, yeah, of course. And so there's that dimension to it. Of course there is a decades precedent of regional geopolitical power struggles between the Gulf monarchies and Iran. Of course the history is too long to go into it, but it had ebbs and flows during The Iran Iraq War. The Gulf monarchies actually all put their weight towards Saddam who was backed by the CIA and the west to wage the war against the Islamic revolution in Iran. As you might recall and our viewers might recall, in late 2016, up until around 2022, 2023, there was a threat of regional crisis between the Gulf monarchies and Iran which was spearheaded by Saudi Arabia. But then this again was, this again was extinguished through the diplomatic efforts of the People's Republic of China. If you recall, in 2023, you actually negotiated and brokered the normalization of ties between Iran and the region. And you know, despite the severe economic sanctions that have been imposed on Iran, the regional countries do not have and do not have the ability to boycott Iran and prevent and, and put a halt to business transactions between them Iran. And this was pointed out, I, I thank, I want to credit our dear friend and scholar doctor Said Al Hashmi for reminding me of this. Iran is the breadbasket of the Gulf of monarchies of the Gulf countries. Mind you, these are all vast deserts with very arid lands. So they have to import most of their food commodities into the region. And Iran is the breadbasket for this. There is a deep and I, we don't, I cannot stress this enough that every single country in that region, from Saudi, Oman, Yemen, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, Iraq, all have centuries and centuries long of, of trade relationships. All there are many, many very notable and high ranking merchant families that are of Arab Iranian descent. In places like the UAE where I lived for many years growing up. The connect the separate the two countries were inseparable. I mean Iranian businessmen and merchants are actually very important figures in the modern Gulf countries and a lot of their police forces are staffed by Arabized Iranians. So there's a very long history to that. It can't necessarily be reduced to an anti Iran sentiment. And of course, you know, this is a discussion to just widen the horizon for our read, for our viewers and as part of a wider trend we're seeing in recent years, Iran. Iran had been from the very onset open to any form of negotiations. They have come to the table at any moment's request. Regardless.
- [28:56]
A
They signed an agreement in 2015.
- [28:58]
B
They signed an agreement in 2015. Up until the very last days of late February, they were willing to agree to terms coming from their own accord that were magnitudes worse than the 2015 agreement which Trump flushed down the toilet. President Trump flushed down the toilet in his first term. In 2017. They were willing to go above and beyond to ensure that the regional war was not was not the option because they understand that this can only be resolved through diplomatic measures. War does not solve regional crises. They actually exacerbate, intensify and deepen them. And the Iranian government is very wary of that. And even as we saw in their attacks against, against Israel in 2025 during the 12 day war against it, they notified their Iran, their, the Arab governments that they were going to strike US bases, gave them advance warning. But Iran has been isolated, targeted and flat out assaulted by the global imperial powers. And they have no other option but to respond to this. And that leads us to another dimension. And I'm not too knowledgeable or familiar with it, but based on my limited understanding, the People's Republic of China and Russia have been instrumental in providing satellite imagery, communications and logistical mapping of the regional region's basis. Of course, Iran doesn't have the luxury that say the United States and the Zionist State of Israel have of deeply infiltrating their society and deeply monitoring, having spies and espionage acts in the region. So I guess they rely on technological advancements to, to counter these and it's proving to be very costly. I think we should, we should definitely go into this because as you're seeing now and again, maybe one more point to add to this as well is that none of the Arab countries have actually responded militarily to Iran. All of them have been, they've been frozen. Which is a question which really highlights the question of sovereignty in the region. Because if all of these countries have limited capacities and their main source of defense is American US Military bases, it really undermines their safety, their sovereignty, their political jurisdiction. And you know, it's very clear based on what the, what the region's foreign ministries have been saying is that they do call these hostilities, they do say that they will respond proportionally. But as of yet, we're entering day 12 now and not a single country of those that have been targeted has responded militarily to Iran, which really does signal that these countries are not looking for, for a forever war. Actually, Qatar's foreign minister, was it today or yesterday in a press conference actually and verbatim said that for years we have been warning that this will cause a regional crisis. And he said, I quote, this is the biggest I told you so in the history of. I told you, I saw that. Yeah. And this is actually, this is something remarkable because it even, it, it really hones in and shows us that these junior imperial partners who have, who have sent billions and billions into American defense, who have opened their lands voluntarily or involuntary to U. S Bases that they don't have any say in this matter. They, they're, they've been begging the United States not to go to war, that this will cause extreme ramifications that go way beyond what President Trump currently says might be a four week operation which as we know is farcical. Something like this might go on to last years as we saw with the eight year war against Iran and as we see in other places as well. And you know, all in all, if in an, in an ideal world you have the United States withdrawing all of its positions and military outposts and imperial sites from the region, they, it's the people who live, it's the, the people who live in the Arabian Gulf and peninsula that are going to face the long term consequences of this war against Iran. American soldiers and service members and mercenaries can all go back home, fly back, be with their families and not to care in the world. And this is an important point too because Iran poses absolutely no threat to the United States. No country does for that matter. They are so far away they don't have any military capabilities that come remotely close to threatening U S interests. And let me say as an American, every single, every single American that has died in this current war is a direct result of the American government's belligerent acts of creating a regional crisis there. All of the light, all of the body bags that are coming back home draped in the US Flag are direct consequences of this. Every single American life could have been saved by this. And you know, I mean, we don't wish ill on anybody. This is really to show that they, there could have been alternatives there. The Omani foreign minister said we were days away from reaching an historic precedent. And the very next day you see this whole scale bombing that's going to have massive, massive consequences on Iran. One last thing I'll say is that this is a real attack on Iran's ability of self sufficiency despite nearly five decades of siege and isolation. And the ramifications cannot be understated in this. We will see this, we'll see this continue to deteriorate for years and years to come.
- [35:09]
A
Excuse me, I was actually, I just was looking at that. It was the kind of foreign minister and I think, I don't know, four or five days ago there was also, I can't remember an official from which state who said America's abandoned us. They're taking all their resources and using them to protect Israel and they're just, you know, they don't care about us, right I mean, it's, I gotta say, and I don't believe in like this kind of idea that Hegseth and others would have, you know, about how great the American military is. It has amazing technologies, technological capacity. I mean, that's military budgets bigger than what, the next 10 countries. And I think there's operational skills there too. But, you know, they can't protect their own CIA offices or their own military installations. You know, it's, it's really, really quite striking. Is there a sense, do you think, in the region that the US has abandoned them among people who are kind of more inclined to, to be American supporters?
- [36:06]
B
Well, there certainly is a consensus amongst the junior imperial partners in the region that they have completely been sideswiped, undermined and overrun by aggression by Zionist aggressive expansionist aims. That is one thing that is undeniable to a point. You said a former Saudi minister, I can't remember his name off the top of my head, openly said that they abandoned us and they put us in severe harm's way. A very influential leader, I mean the head of a very influential merchant family in the UAE, from the Alhamdulillah family, who have not, who have historically remained very quiet about UAE's foreign policy, who had not opposed and not gone against the normalization with Israel in 2020, has made multiple statements condemning outright the US's imperial presence in the region, saying that it is openly the biggest threat that we currently face. And there is legitimate reasons to believe so. I mean, the whole, the whole selling point of having these bases are security, stability and prosperity, which gives these countries the ability to market themselves as being havens for prosperity and havens for capital flow and for market generation. Because, you know, a lot of these monarchies have understood that their resources are finite, that within 50, 60 years they might run out of oil, if not sooner. And they have to transition their economies from being primarily dependent on exploitative natural extractions into one being that are deeply integrated into the global capitalist economy. So security is antamount to this because you cannot get all of these investors coming to spend their money left and right as tax havens, as playgrounds for the billionaires and the elites if there's a regional war happening. And it doesn't take an erudite scholar to understand this. I mean, without, without this big selling point, what do these countries have to market to the West? They don't have so much, really. And so they're grave major consequences to this. And you know, as by an extension to previous, previous commentary we, we made is that they, the attacks don't seem to be slowing down or stopping anytime soon. The United States has taken. There's obviously a media censorship and blackout, but we know that a lot of technological sites, of communication sites, radar systems have been taken out. The United States's global arsenal of Patriot missiles and Thaad missiles and the like have been severely depleted because of Israel's genocide in Gaza and of course NATO's imperialist war in Ukraine to the point where actually I read reports that South Korea has had, the US has had to take their batteries outside of us
- [39:26]
A
Is also getting interceptors from Ukraine. They are, they are, Ukraine is sending in. And I would have, you know, as somebody who studies imperialism and you know, kind of coming up, you know, mentored by people in the new left, there was the sensing something you said is really important. It's something I talk about. You want stability, right. And that was kind of the point of empire. You wanted a stable empire. And what Trump has done is obviously just blow that up as well.
- [39:52]
B
Right.
- [39:52]
A
Because now what you're doing is essentially creating enemies or potential enemies like literally all over the globe. I mean, enemies that might actually take action against you. So that's really important. And I think that like watching the American media or listening to the American media, we're not hearing that like about the kind of larger impact, but we're hearing it's like a, a sporting event, right? Like a, a football match or something like that. Who's winning? How many goals did we score? How many things did we blow up? Look at those plumes of smoke from the oil wells. Right. And that leaves into account that like, that's not how wars are really determined. Right. I mean, if that were the case, U. S would have wanted Vietnam. Right. It killed 3 million people and blew the, out of the entire country.
- [40:37]
B
Right.
- [40:39]
A
And, and it didn't matter ultimately. So anyway, that was just kind of my soapbox. But I think what you pointed out is really put. And I want to go back to that because I think that's important too, because I've seen some indications that there's some level. I don't know if it's actually happened yet, but there's at least a discussion now of disinvestment from Western sources. And there could be some, especially with the Strait of Hormuz now, potential insurance issues too, where a lot of these ships won't be able to be insured. Right. So do you think that's actually. Are there discussions going on now about actually pulling back from this kind of American centered global economy?
- [41:14]
B
Well, you know Bob, I can't speak with certainty to this and it's been quite unfortunate actually that the only major global force counterbalance to the Western imperialist alliance, the BRICS alliance, has actually been largely and overwhelmingly silent on the atrocities that have been happening in the region. So I cannot speak with certainty, but there will, I do not doubt that there will be a reassessment of what the political and economic calculations has been and I'm sure that this will pose greater generational questions that I hope illuminates and widens the political consciousness of people in the region about the detriments of having foreign imperial bases controlling your sovereignty and having direct control over whether your country is dragged in to war, not even country your region is dragged into war or not. But let's just say the cert. What we know for certain now is that this war has caused a global spike global energy crisis. It has caused spikes in commodity prices which and oil energy prices which will have not the trickling effect. It will have a watershed effect on every aspect of our lives. Of course this is central to the Make America Great Again project. Right? That's the one way to reduce the price of eggs and to get the oil prices down by bombing the living crap of the center of regional energy exports. No, but all jokes aside really, I mean this is having majors, this is having major ramifications and we'll only see what the end of it is. I mean the, the market has been so volatile by the way, now that the Dow Jones is below 50 000. Can we go along with Pam Bondi's argument that now we can perhaps talk about the Epstein files and the mass systematic rape of children now that the stock market has taken a dip or does that no longer matter?
- [43:16]
A
I don't know if it's true, but I've read that that's actually a major talking point in the region. Right. You know they're kind of, the Iranians especially are making reference to Epstein and there is also this kind of larger discussion about Epstein's connection to Israel because here like, and people like the liberals, right, they it's always Epstein in Russia, right. Rachel Maddow and the rest of these, you know, is that actually a talking point that like, you know, they're using
- [43:39]
B
that as well or this, this is undoubtedly a talking point and it's even one that I had to like contend with and question myself. I would reflect and ponder and say could this really be just an all out attempt to mask or diverge and avoid any revelations from the Epstein files, but I think 110. It's a slippery argument because you're suggesting that.
- [44:06]
A
That he didn't.
- [44:07]
B
No, no, of course.
- [44:07]
A
From Epstein. No, he's.
- [44:09]
B
Of course.
- [44:10]
A
And that's the thing. Let me, Let me kind of steal them. Steal the mic for a minute, because I think that's something that Americans don't understand. This is not new. I mean, this has been, you know, in the making for. For literally decades. You know, really. I mean, you could go back with Iran. We could go back to the 1946 crisis or, you know, so, so I'm not suggesting that. And, and one thing, like, and, and I don't want to cut you off, but we can also, I think, discuss, because I think it's something important and we have no idea what Trump is really thinking or whoever's making.
- [44:38]
B
Maybe.
- [44:38]
A
I, I think Lindsey Graham is the president now because he seems to be taking the lead on all this stuff.
- [44:43]
B
Right.
- [44:44]
A
And there's this common, like, among critics. It's like he did because Israel wanted it. And, you know, and there's no doubt there's clearly a symmetry there. But I wonder, like, whether you. Or what you're hearing indicates, like, how. How people. I mean, is this just like they think Israel is like, Netanyahu is bossing Trump around or. Because I actually, you know, you and I have talked about, like, things like the influence of APAC and so on, and I think the US Actually has what it considers interest in the region, and Israel has always served those interests. Right, Wrong point. But I think you know what I'm getting at.
- [45:15]
B
Yeah, yeah, no, no, of course, of course. And let me just say I was. My response was not necessarily directed towards your. Com. Your comment, but actually to try and give a wider scope to our viewers and try and say this goes way deeper than that. And as you so pointed out, everything that has happened in Iran and as a historian, I can say, can be directly traced back to imperial meddling within the region from 1946 and from a way more pronounced character, from the democratic. From the regime change operation against the democratically elected President Mossadegh and Vice President Mossadegh. I mean, Prime Minister, sorry, in 1953. So, of course, there's a deep historical precedent to this. And there are. We're in a moment. We're living in a moment where conspiracy theory might seem to be the only reasonable, reasonable explanation. Especially you can even extrapolate this to think that. To say that, you know, now one can have difficulties contending with the argument that Israel controls U.S. foreign policy. But actually it goes much deeper than this. Maybe it might well be the case that Israel has a much closer ear under its current genocidal government with Benjamin Netanyahu and Trump than other administrations. And of course the outlier here is that while the belligerency is not, not new, it's actually, you know, previous presidents has have tried to put their foot down and successfully like prevented all out to war which actually does signal the US's the U. S's leading role in this. Because if the US were operating under Israel's directives, they could clearly just put an end to it this moment. The way Trump did in, in 2015 in the 12 Day War. You remember he famously went on air and said Netanyahu and Iran have no idea what the they're doing. And you know, the United States at the most is the largest imperial power in the region. Can with one phone call put an end to these things. It really can. There is no denying this. However, it's their military that's conducting operations, their technology, their weaponry, their, their continuation of forever war. So it goes much deeper than that. Of course I understand where people might be coming from and think that these are the only things that make sense in this moment, but it's actually way deeper than that. I mean Israeli policy is American policy or American policy is a reflection of Israeli policy in the region. And there is no denying it, especially with what we're seeing now because the collective weight of all of the regional junior partners should numerically, economically, politically outweigh that of the Zionist state of Israel. But what we're seeing now is actually a complete opposite of that. So I hope that answers or that oh it does.
- [48:14]
A
And that's like really, you know, important point. Right. Because Israel is one state, very important. Right. Kind of a sub imperial power in the region. But if you guys wanted to kind of put its foot down, you know, clearly it could do that. Right? And, and yeah, yeah, and I don't
- [48:30]
B
want to absolve former presidents or give them a free pass. I mean what we're witnessing today and all of Trump's imperialist aggressions can be directly traced to the acts of former presidents. I mean the wars that Reagan and NATO waged in Libya, the worst Clinton waged in Yugoslavia and Bosnia against the region under Obama are all a direct and of course Biden during the genocide and first iteration of the regional war direction.
- [49:00]
A
I don't know if we can say that, you know, like if, if that hadn't happened, this wouldn't have happened. But I think you can say that like without the American full throated, unconditional support of everything that Israel's done Since, you know, October 7th, I don't think this is going to happen the way it has.
- [49:16]
B
Absolutely. And you know, Biden's administration had an opportunity to reverse and repeal much of the corrosive damage that the previous, the first Trump administration did in the region. And they chose not to. They chose actually to intensify sanctions as they did in Cuba, as they.
- [49:33]
A
Venezuela and Cuba, same thing. No, no change at all. Right.
- [49:37]
B
And let me just say this. I mean, I really, it's with a deep heart that I actually say this, Bob. But the grave miscalculations that the United States and Israel took in their belligerent war in Iran now is believing that they could find Del C. Rodriguez, like figures in Venezuela to just coerce or put the sword to the neck, decapitate the head and believe that the government and regime would fall. Of course, the Bolivian Bolivarian Project hasn't fallen in Venezuela. It's under severe imperial threat. And of course there's an argument to be made that Dely Rodriguez has no option but to, but to follow the command.
- [50:22]
A
There's kind of a gun in her head.
- [50:24]
B
Yeah, there is, there is. But they miscalculated and severely misfired. They thought that the elimination of an illegal assassination of Ali Khamenei would actually signal the collapse of the Iranian state. And I'm no expert in Iranian politics or history, but the sites of the organic mass protests that emerged earlier this year against the austerity measures are actually, as we're seeing now, the basis of strongest support for the government now in this war. I mean, they, what they've done, they, I mean, they have completely, completely made a joke out of these attempts to liberate Iran and to save it and to, to, to break freedom into the region. Freedom has never brought through bombs, even on the left, but even on the left. Freedoms brought through justice, not through warfare and destruction.
- [51:21]
A
Yeah, and, and one thing that struck me is like, because, you know, we both know a lot of people, Iranian expats, you know, whether they're here wherever we scholars and so on, and most of them actually are, are very critical of the regime. They are no way supportive. They supported protesters in Iran. Every one of them, 100% of them are, are disgusted and appalled and horrified by what's going on here. So, you know, the American media loves to show like some, you know, they, they'll talk to, I call him Baby Shaw. Right Risa Pali or they'll go to, you know, LA and they'll show 20 people, you know, chanting or something like that. It would seem to me that that's not just an Iranian issue. If the US actually does try to go in and put some kind of friendly regime in, in power there. I mean, that. Doesn't that have massive ramifications regionally? I mean, I would think that like the entire region would be like really alarmed by that, wouldn't it?
- [52:14]
B
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And let me start off by saying actually the lead global figure that has poised himself to be the force and voice of regime change in Iran, Riza Pahlavi, who's the son of the deposed Iranian monarch who was overthrown in 1978, has actually been played by the United States with a stroke of a brush. I mean, he's bent over in every which direction to placate and to please the, the United States and their imperial backers. In recent years, we've seen an acceleration and intensification of Zionism amongst the Iranian diaspora. Of course, Reza Pahlavi's address earlier this year when the protests were taking place was to say the first thing he will do is normalize relations with Iran. Senior. With Israel, sorry, senior members of the United States government are openly, without filters, saying that we're poised to profit so much out of this, in, out of this war and out of the future redeemed change in Iran. But let me say this, Bob. I think it. There is a huge misinterpretation and dangerous analysis that the left seems to posit of condemning both sides, of trying to preface any rejection of regional war by saying Khamenei was a dictator. Khamenei murdered his, his people. Khamenei did this, did that. Of course, every government has its internal contradictions. There are very legitimate and very reasonable critiques of, of not only the Iranian government, but every government in existence today. There's no question about that. But the, the measures that they've been forced into are direct result of US strangulation. Sanctions kill. People don't seem to understand that Iran's sanctions have resulted in tens and tens of thousands of deaths over the years. When people can't get access to pharmaceuticals, now pharmaceutical industries are being whole flat out bomb in Iran when people's salaries just floor to hit the floor and a month's worth of wages can now get, can't get you lunch at a restaurant. These have severe economic and material consequences on people living there. And you have a lot of left Western leftists who will Go out and tell you we stand with the Iranian workers. The Iranian workers want this, the Iranian workers want that. But regime change is only going to hurt the Iranian working class and the Iranian people. This bombardment is actually causing severe damage, severe impacts to the Iranian people and to the Iranian working class. And if we see the road, the regime change in Iran and the complete destruction of the social welfare state that had been put in place by the revolution, of course the welfare state suffers severe mismanagement there, there's corruption. I'm not here to absolve it in any way, but in the end you have to look at the situation and say there is an existential war that is taking place. Iran has no other choice but to defend itself in this, in this moment. And any attempts to play both sides plays into the imperialist narrative. Any attempts to preface your, your positions by critiques of the existing government structures serve no purpose at this point. It really bears nothing. I mean, the people in Iran are not waiting for me to say what I think about Khamenei. I don't think they give a damn, Bob.
- [56:04]
A
And frankly, do you think anybody in Havana gives a what I say? Or anybody in Caracas or wherever?
- [56:09]
B
Exactly, exactly.
- [56:11]
A
And I'm sure, you know, I'm sure you've been called a campus than a tanky as well because, you know, I hear that all the time from people of a Trotsky as persuasion especially.
- [56:21]
B
So call it, call it what they may, but the bombardment of civilian infrastructure, the economic strangulation and decades of isolation has caused more damage to the Iranian population and the Iranian working class than any of its administrations since the revolution took place. And I think this is something that must, this analysis, this must be extended to Cuba, it must be extended to Venezuela, it must be extended to Democratic People's Republic of Korea and many other places that are facing strangulation. Of course, obviously the now collapsed Syrian state and the, the former Libyan government. And of course these have many historical precedents.
- [57:05]
A
So yeah, we've gone on for quite a bit. Can I ask you two more? Kind of. We'd have to spend a while.
- [57:10]
B
Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to go on as long as you wish. I mean, frankly, I didn't even get to cover most of the notes that I wrote down for this.
- [57:16]
A
Well, and that's actually, there's two things in particular I want to mention because I haven't even brought them up yet. One, of course, is going to be Yemen, but we'll finish with that. But Lebanon is getting pummeled right now, right I mean we're, we're seeing what. I don't know if it's an ethnic cleansing yet, but it's, it's close. Right. It's, that's the. What, what is, what do you think the end game is for Israel? Why, I mean, why is it conducting these, these operations all over the region? Right. But in Lebanon in particular, this has been a target for a long time.
- [57:48]
B
Right.
- [57:49]
A
What do you sense is happening there? I mean Hezbollah apparently has emerged, it's fighting back to some degree. I don't know. But what, what is your sense of Lebanon right now?
- [58:01]
B
Yeah, Lebanon is a tragic situation, Bob. And if we can shift the analysis a little bit. Whereas you may see Israel's aggression in Iran as being imperialist in character, in Lebanon it's actually much different. It has a colonialist character to it because the state of Israel was founded on lands that border modern day Lebanon. Much of Lebanon's southern lands were colonized by the current state of Israel in 1948. It has faced severe occupation and lived through the consequences of decades of colonial aggression since 1978. The direct, the direct occupation that only was liberated at the hands of Hezbollah in 2000 after a long war of attrition. But Lebanon is a key site to this battle because it's very clear with the genocide, once the genocide in Gaza broke out, that Israel took on a more militant, expansionist, imperialist character to create a greater Zionist project. I mean ever since the ceasefire took place, it was signed into Place in November 27th, 2024 between Lebanon and between Lebanon, at the head of it being Hezbollah and the State of Israel. There have been 10,000 plus violations by the settler colony into, into Lebanon. Hundreds upon hundreds of people had been killed, many thousands had been wounded, displacements were in the tens of thousands. There have been, and I wish we could have had this discussion with Scott because the ecological ramifications and the, the ecocide that they are conducting along the southern front of Lebanon is horrific beyond control. Not only the separation borders that have severe crises, the divergence of water, the use, regular use of chemical agents like phosphorus onto south Lebanese agricultural lands. Mind you, the south of Lebanon is the most impoverished region of Lebanon. It is the largest base of the Shia working class population. But it goes back to your point, is that during Israel's war of aggression on to Lebanon, during the genocide, their main victory march was that they destroyed and annihilated Hezbollah. And the entire re formation of the current ruling government in Lebanon is structured on the orders of dismantling Hezbollah and Entering negotiations with the State of Israel which by the way is illegal under the Lebanese constitution. The latter part entering negotiate direct negotiations and the first part being that after the Taif accords long historical summary at the end of the Lebanese Civil War in 1990, the Ta' if agreement which was signed in the city of Ta' if in Saudi Arabia disarmed all of the non state groups operating inside Lebanon with the exception of Hezbollah because they were, they were seen as a, as a, as a liberation force fighting and occupying power in the south. And this structure exists to this day in Lebanon. The sectarian dimension has, and we don't have time to get into it but it has the pronounced, most pronounced character. President Jose found has openly called this an Iranian backed war. But as we're seeing, like I mean Hezbollah are operating in defense of their land. They have had extreme restraint after 10,000 plus violations of not responding in kind. But on March 1st when they fired rockets into occupied Palestine, the entire media class, not only in the west but also in the region frames this as Hezbollah conducting, breaking the ceasefire and plunging the region into war which could not be any farther from the truth. I mean they have suffered greatly from this. Of course their capacities are diminished with the overthrow of the, of the Baptist or what remained of the Baptist government in Syria in late 2024. By the way, I wish we could talk about this some other time but. The Jilani backed Salafist march onto the capital of Damascus which was spearheaded by, by a figure we know today as Ahmad Shara Mohammed Jelani was actually began the day after ceasefire was brokered between Lebanon and, and Israel. And that allowed under the guise of US warplanes and Israeli intelligence to march onto the capital, dismantle the Syrian state. And the very next day after that Israel occupied the rest of the region which we know as Jalan. As occupied Jalan Heights. They took over twice the size of territory that they had taken than the size of Gaza. During this time they completely depleted and destroyed the remnants of serious capabilities to defend and resist any foreign attack aggression. If you RECALL in early December 2024 Israel launched upwards of 800 airstrikes calling it the biggest air operation in history when it completely wiped out Syria's air systems, weapons depots, air force base and the like. And this can't be separated from the question of the resistance in Lebanon because that was the direct supply line to replenish resistance forces operating in Lebanon. And as we might get into a little bit later with Yemen, actually they were, there was hopes with the Ansar Allah government in Yemen to use Syria or to allow. Sir. Or for Syria to allow them to operate from inside their territory against the occupiers in Palestine. But for reasons that in hindsight might have been futile, the. The now deposed Bashar Al Assad refused to engage deeper under threat of Zionist retaliation, which as we were to see was to result no matter what. I understand one can make the argument why he resisted in that time and under a severely fragmented and weakened dismantled state. But we're living the consequences of this. But to go back to what we were talking about so Suddenly now, after 15, 16 months, Hezbollah has emerged from underground, has been repelling invasions and air raids by design a state into Lebanon even. And the reason why I brought up Syria is because there have been at least two commando raids that took place from occupied Syrian territory into Lebanon via the, you know, with the. Whether it's complicity or whether inability to do anything but definitely have been silent about the Syrian regime and Hezbollah had managed to deter them. They have been, they have been firing rockets into the north of occupied Palestine. They've been striking deep into occupied Palestinian lands. There were images that circulated in videos of communication sites in central occupied Palestine in what they call today Beit Shemesh, which is the depopulated villages of Natasha in Palestine of communication and surveillance, surveillance bases over there. So the whole myth that they were able to take out the resistance has been futile and disproven here. The same can be said in Palestine. Of course, the, the resistance forces operating in Gaza have no ability to respond now. The consequences are way too high. But again, they're still suffering from this. Let's, let's be very clear, Bob. From the very first day that the US is really. War was waged on Iran, Israel took the act as it does like shutting on and off the top of closing all of the border crossings to the besieged Gaza Strip that has been besieged for two decades now, that is undergoing an ongoing genocide. There's no access to food, energy prices are soaring. You know, these are manipulated. Christ, artificially manipulated crises that are meant to starve, to wear down and to exhaust to the extreme the Palestinian population, the native population living there. And by extension they're trying to do similar, similar maneuvers in Lebanon. They're issuing calls again for the forced displacement of south Lebanon, all lands south of the Litany river, which is almost a third of Lebanon's territory. This is not new. They did this when they occupied Lebanon in 1978. They were unable to go anywhere near the Litany River. And the same in the last Israeli colonial aggression into, sorry, into Lebanon. They failed to get near there. They would video themselves going by near very small streams, claiming they're at the Litany river, when things couldn't be farther from the truth. So it really does amplify that these as, as defeated as we may seem to be on the individual level, as helpless as we might feel ourselves to be, the largest imperial powers with all their might, all their technology, all their weaponry, have once again proven incapable of destroying local and native resistance. Now, of course, this maximalist pressure in Lebanon is aimed directly towards making this, the local population, resentful and as distant as possible from Hezbollah. But, I mean, I've repeated this many times. The resistant forces are not alien, transplanted figures. They are the children of the land. And you can kill the individual, but you cannot kill the ideology. And you cannot, you cannot defeat people's willpower to live free, dignified and normal lives like other people, like everybody deserves to. So what end this has, I'm not sure, because even in Palestine, the resistance, they fail to disarm the resistance, they. They failed to dismantle them. Even with Trump's Board of Peace, which is really a board of empire, and there are 22 nations led by our Caesar Caesar, chairman for life, President Trump, they've been unable to disarm and dismantle a resistance movement that had been besieged for two decades. So, and then let's extrapolate this. Can they, by extension, take out Iran in two weeks? My assessment? Absolutely not.
- [69:43]
A
You know, and, and maybe, you know, this is irrelevant, but, you know, I'm old enough and I've taught this. You've been in my class, right? The Iran Iraq War lasted eight years, and Iran was pummeled. I mean, the United States and the Soviet Union were arming Iraq at the time. And, and, you know, Iran lost a million people and they kept fighting. And I'm assuming that a lot of these people currently in government are the children or grandchildren of that generation. So they're aware. You know, I don't think they're under the illusion that the US Is going to back off, or I think they know that this is effective. And along those lines, now we know that, that Netanyahu has this sense of a greater Israel, right? He shows these maps. It's like Trump showing maps with everything from Canada to Chile and, you know, stars and strings, whatever. But that, and usually I would dismiss stupid that ambassadors say. But Huckabee was about a month ago, remember, made that comment about how, like, this is all belongs to Israel. How did that play in the region? Did they just kind of laugh because it's stupid or did they think these guys are different, they might actually try to do this?
- [70:47]
B
Yeah, Bob, sometimes I feel like it's a fever dream. But wasn't it the case that Huckabee had the played the played the live performance like Sweet Home, Sweet home Jerusalem.
- [70:59]
A
Yeah, whatever. I don't.
- [71:00]
B
Yeah, or Celine, like I can't even
- [71:03]
A
wrap my mind like in a peyote induced. You can get like Hunter Thompson and, and Mark Twain and Gore Vidal and all together. They couldn't invent this.
- [71:15]
B
Yeah, one thing I'll say, I mean, very recently Ambassador Mike Huckabee had a one on one interview with Tucker Carlson, who of course is a reactionary right wing pundit, but has been one of the more up outspoken voices against Israel.
- [71:32]
A
It's painful, but yes, he's maybe Trump's number one thorn right now. Him and Marjorie Taylor Greene are the biggest pains in Trump's ass right now.
- [71:41]
B
It's undoubtedly so. And going against all of the conservative right wing media outlets, he had openly asked him about, about the ramifications of a Greater Israel project and how could be said responded to the tune of that would be fine. If they decide to do it, it's up to them. As if there's no, there's no. They're left unchecked. The territorial expansions go unheeded and this pose existential crises for the regional, regional governments. I mean a country like Jordan, whose main survival depends on U.S. aid and U.S. foreign assistance is really at the cross holds now for years and years, of course, we known of this open and hostile intention of expelling Palestinians and ethnically cleansing them from all of historic Palestine and transferring them into Jordan. What we call ethnic cleansing. This has been an open motive of the Zionist project since Jabotinsky, Vladimir jabotinsky in the 1920s and 1930s. It's not a new trend in Israeli, in Israeli, in the Israeli political scene. But for countries like Jordan, for places like Lebanon as well, these pose real existential crises. Of course, the Syrian regime now has a different motive to it because it's openly willing to engage in negotiations and normalize with Israel despite it undermining its sovereignty at every turn. But the impact of a Greater Israel could not be more damaging to, to the region. And you know, other actors like the, the Greater Israel Project is from the Nile to the Euphrates and the, the other largest Israeli, the Arab countries.
- [73:30]
A
From the river to the sea.
- [73:31]
B
Yeah, from the river to the sea. That's the real anti Semitic trope. Right. And actually their, their, their analysis of the, the from the river to the sea is actually their slogan to begin with.
- [73:42]
A
Yeah.
- [73:43]
B
And I mean it's one, it can only be at the edge of their tiptoes now worrying what on the edge of their seat, worrying how this might escalate. Of course, I came on to your, the first time I came on to your show, I, I stated to your viewers that I believe that this is the end, beginning of the end of the Zionist project. Of course, you know, as historians, we have to, you know, as scholars, as human beings, our analysis might not always be correct in that moment. But you know, there is perhaps a, an argument to make that the most vicious and the most violent forms of imperialist aggression happened to be when they passed past its, their twilight. I mean, we've seen this as well in South Africa, that the most vicious expansionism into the southern African continent came when it was at its, at its, at the end of its life, when it, it occupied, when it invaded Namibia and Angola and Mozambique and Zimbabwe, when it was, when it was colonial religion and the like and what have you.
- [74:53]
A
But you know, that brings up something that made me think, because this is an argument I've had with people about like the Cold War and again, you don't have to support the Soviet Union, but having a left alternative globally was important because it supported a lot of those liberation movements you think of like Cuba, right, which was really vital in the, in the last days of apartheid. Right. How does the absence of a left of any kind and the Arab left was never kind of, you know, in a position to take over, but, but it existed. We both, well, you know that way better than me, but we know that. Right. How does the absence of any real global left affect this? You know, China, I mean, China is just sitting back reaping the benefits, I think of all this. You know, I think that's its position. Like why should we do anything when the US is going to like self destroy? Right. But what, I mean, because there was a time and you've studied this and this is what you work on, right? There was an Arab left and they're not much of one anymore. Right. How has that affected and made it easier for, for the US and Israel?
- [75:56]
B
Well, certainly at the, this, the elementary level it's made the, it go unchecked and allowed it to operate freely without any domestic or regional opposition to this. Of course, like you said, when there was a Soviet bloc and when there was A real internationalist left that existed. There were forces that could be mobilized at any given point around the world to put pressure to this. Of course, the, the collapse, not the collapse, the overthrow of the Soviet Union and the, and the bureaucratization of the People's Republic of China and their policy of non interference in internal affairs of regional, of external countries has had a big detriment, has had a big impact and has allowed the United States and its imperial partners to operate unchecked across the globe. I mean it's, it must be said that there's, it's very disappointing to see how China has refused to, to take a strong stance on the genocide invest, on the overthrow of Maduro in Venezuela, on the impending war, on the ongoing war in Iran now and the impending war on Cuba. And this is exactly what happens as a result, as a consequence of decades and decades of investing billions and billions of dollars into death, destruction, repression, regionalized into regionalization, sectarianism. I mean these are, we're reaping this. The, the, we're reaping the consequences of all of these decades of meddling in internal and regional affairs. And frankly it's, it's, in this moment you can't say there is a counterbalance on the, within the Arab masses. The only ones operating now are the Lebanese resistance in, in Lebanon, the Palestinian resistance and what's left of Gazan in the cantons, in the Bantustans of what remains of the occupied west bank and to a large degree the Ansar Allah representative government in Yemen. But of course we'll talk about that now.
- [78:10]
A
Yeah, because Yemen is an area you've studied extensively and, and we kind of, again, the media portrays it in kind of exotic ways. Right. The, the, the pirates and this and that. But there's something, you know, why don't you just kind of briefly, we don't, we don't have to spend a ton of time on it. Talk a little bit about like Yemen's role in the region and especially now.
- [78:35]
B
Yeah. So in response to Israel's genocide on Gaza, as you recall from our previous discussions, Yemen undertook the most militant position as a, as a government. Of course, the Lebanese resistance also took equally militant positions, but as a, as a regional act government, the Ansar Law, who we, who derogatorily are referred to as the Houthis in Yemen, imposed a maritime blockade on Israel in stages as a means of using whatever limited and capacities they have to force an end to the genocide in Gaza. They operated on a multi tier scale where they would first target Israeli flagships, then ships conducting business with Israel, then ships that have with companies with ties and then all ships in the region. So it was a multi, tiered, multi series approach. Yemen in response with its limited capabilities, having undergone years, almost close to a decade of economic strangulation and war that was led by Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, funded and bankrolled by the US Government and to a lesser extent Britain and Canada managed to manage to have the most important and the most consequential impact on Israel's economy by instituting this blockade. And the Yemenis paid a very heavy and dear price for standing up with the principles of being in solidarity with Palestine. There were multiple coalitions, sometimes 10 imperial nations at a time that were undertaking bombardments and that were conducting assassinations and targeting Yemen's limited and fragile civilian infrastructures that are vitally needed to prevent mass death, malnutrition and disease that proliferated as a direct result of the Saudi led aggression into Yemen that took around a quarter million lives and threatened the remaining 21 million or so who remained in Yemen after around 8,9 million fled. So Yemen, the Ansar law movement have a wrap in the international media of being puppets of Iran and being their proxies. But as we've seen in this moment, actually you would think that a proxy would respond immediately to what's happening to their so called financiers if, if they were called to action. But Yemen, as a result of their principled stances in the Red Sea through their maritime and economic blockade against the State of Israel and their limited drone and missile strikes that were targeted against occupied Palestine do not seem to be repeating themselves at the moment. In this moment in time the Ansar Allah government has had to take a very more cautious and calculated approaches time for many reasons. As I mentioned earlier, their capacities were extremely drained and limited by years of strangulation and their and Israel entering directly against Yemen. For the first time in history it conducted so many assassinations. It assassinated the General Chief of Staff of the Army Muhammad Abdul Karim Al Ghmari. It also assassinated the Prime Minister of the Ansar Allah government and Sanha Ahmad. Both of them were I believe airstrikes conducted in August 28th of 2025 because it took a few months to announce their assassinations. They, Israel and the United States and to a lesser degree Britain bombarded the oil depots, they bombarded water treatment facilities. Mind you, this is the most impoverished nation in the region and possibly one of the most impoverished on the world. And I don't Say poor, impoverished, because they have been bombed, depleted, isolated, attacked and threatened and their resources have been extracted from them for decades. And this is a long history from this. So and this moment in time, and I check Yemeni news sources daily, the Ansar Allah government says that they're willing to intervene and participate, but they have to take a more measured approach now because their limited capacities to impose a maritime blockade might not necessarily hold as far as it did in the previous time. And there are other factors to consider as well. I mean, the US's illegal operations in Venezuela, it's outright war in Iran, and as I keep stressing, its impending regime change operation in Cuba is a real reminder, it's not an abstract threat that this could well happen in Yemen itself. They have to take these considerations. The solidarity for the people of Palestine has not diminished in Yemen, and of course, their outrage over Iran's. The war against Iran has not gone unheard. But there are different, the calculus is a little bit different in this moment. Also something to consider, Bob, in terms of the internal political situation of Yemen's very complicated regional power struggles that are taking place, is that for the longest time, ever since the UAE and Saudi led war on Yemen in 2015, there had been competing factions within those countries over how best to control. The one represented the UN recognized government in Yemen, which had operated in exile in Saudi Arabia until it was brought back to the geostrategic port city of Aden in 2022 23, if I'm not mistaken. And the UAE backed mercenary forces that were known as the Southern Transitional Council, who were wanted, who had separationist visions that mirrored but were completely divergent from the previous project of a southern Yemen. Of course, it abstract detects from all the political histories of South Yemen, which was the only Marxist government that ever existed in the Arab world and just wanted a southern separatist movement based on a southern identity that was supposedly distinct from the north of Yemen, which is ahistorical and anachronistic to modern Yemeni society. Just a small tangent. The. In every document of the People's Democratic Republic of Yemen, which was South Yemen, the main goal and aim was the unification of Yemen, which unified for the first time in modern history in 1990, actually after a century and a half of British colonial rule in the south of Yemen, and of course, Saudi Saudi manipulation and control over what became the north of Yemen through the Yemen Arab Republic. So there's a very long history to that. But, but the point I was trying to make was that in early 2020, late 2025 early 2026 after years of stalemates, if you could say between the Ansar law forces who are unified and the ununified regionally backed powers that are operating in Yemen, primarily led by the UN represented a government recognized by the UN and the Southern Transitional Council that supported by, that was supported by the UAE came to a heads and Saudi Arabia, who's the main sub imperial power of the region, decided to destroy any political and military capabilities of the UAE backed Southern Transitional Council. They expelled actually their leader Muhammad Zubaydi to, to Somaliland. The only part of the only like Israel is the only country that recognized the legitimacy of Somaliland. It's part of their, it's part of their peripheral doctrine to support any minority ethnic breakaway group that can undermine regional stability or any multi ethnic unity. But the point I'm trying to say is that in early 2026 the forces that are fighting against the Ansar Allah government unified under the direction of Saudi Arabia and they're now concentrated under the UN represented government. So there are other calculations that inshallah have to take in this moment too that whereas in the past there was like they could allow them to squabble and to fight it out between the southern STC and between the, the, the Yemeni backed government that doesn't have popular legitimacy now there are more grave concerns over it. And Saudi Arabia which led the devastating and horrific war against Yemen actually was notoriously absent from all of the coalitions that were amassed in 2024 and 2025 to combat Yemen's maritime blockade against the State of Israel. So I hope that answered your question. It's very, it's, it's. There's no clear straightforward answer to it as well. And let me just say I think this is very important to point out as well. I made a note that there's some very. There's a wonderful group called the Yemen Data Project that have been mapping for years the impacts and consequences of these wars. And this, the strangulation of Yemen came out with a report last month that showed whereas previous airstrikes by imperial powers would result in an average of 2 to 3 deaths, civilian deaths on average per airstrike, Israel's casualties in Yemen were averaged of around 15 civilian deaths per airstrike. So this of course has devastating effects and they understand that they don't have the capabilities to confront this, this pariah state, really in the truest of sense a rogue pariah state. But nonetheless they have the political will and the attention and the solidarity and I'm nobody To say this myself, Bob, and I'm sorry for rambling on so much, but they put the Yemenis put in their shift, and they. They have done way more, enough way more than any other government in the region combined with, to end the genocide in gazes, so they can be excused or forgiven or understood for not directly entering the conference. The. The regional war now. And of course, this. The last thing I'll say is that this dispels the argument that, that the west has been making, that they're just proxies for Iran that does whatever they tell them. Iran actually was vehemently opposed and was not consulted when they enacted the maritime blockade on the Red Sea. Iran openly said that they had nothing to do with it, they don't support it, and they actually tried to make negotiations with the Ansar Allah to. To open. To open up the Red Sea to commercial trade. Mind you, these are two. The. The Babel Mandib Strait in the Red Sea and the Strait of Hormuz in the Arabian Gulf and Peninsula and Indian Ocean are two of the seven most important maritime chokeholds in the world, and combined, around 30% of global energy supplies go through these two regions. So it's only a matter of time to see what might transpire in Yemen. But for now, they have to take a much different approach than they were able to in 2023, if that makes any sense.
- [91:06]
A
No, absolutely. And, you know, like we were saying before, because there are a lot of people who use terms like campus or tanki as an insult. This is like Yemen and Cuba, obviously. Right. I mean, they've held the line for so long, you know, these small countries standing up in the case of Cuba over six decades. Right. And to attack them because you don't like electoral system or something like that is just unimaginable.
- [91:31]
B
Wow.
- [91:32]
A
This has been just absolutely brilliant, as, as usual, gone for like an hour and a half. So, you know, who knows? I mean, there's always a chance Trump will just declare victory and walk away. Who knows, right? You know, ground troops are on the table, which would clearly be catastrophic for everyone involved, including the U.S. i mean, I don't know if Trump cares about Americans being killed. I don't think he really does, but, you know, that. That's just not a good situation. And then, God forbid, they could use, you know, a tactical nuclear weapon there. I mean, anything is possible, right? So who knows? And, you know, like you, we, we. I mean, we're historians, so we can kind of analyze things and say it might turn into this, but I Know that, you know, I'm way older than you and I've lived through, you know, the Cold War and the Vietnam War and the, the Iranian revolution, and, and I have never seen anything approaching this. Not the evil, because, I mean, you have Vietnam, all this was going on there. Right. The United States supported the most brutal regimes in Central America, supported the apartheid regime in, in South Africa. So it's just the, the intensity of it and, and the stupidity of it, really. Right. And the scariest part is here at home, you know, a majority of Americans oppose this, and a lot of people are saying, why is it only 50%? I think it's utterly remarkable that it's 50%, because all we've heard is that Iran is a threat to the US And Iran is this fanatical religious country and Iran's got nuclear weapons and Iran wants to do this and Iran wants to do that. And, and the fact is, that's all you hear. There's really no countervailing alternative idea. And even with all that, half of Americans are calling on it. So maybe, maybe there's something going on. Who knows? I mean, in a very short period of time, America's turned against Israel. I mean, Israel's support now is below that of the Palestinians, which. Well, you're a lot younger. That's unimaginable to me, someone of my age.
- [93:31]
B
Yeah, it's unprecedented.
- [93:32]
A
I grew up in an era where it was like 90 to 10, like this. Israel was like. If you were a liberal in America, you were all in on Israel. Right. So the fact that it's changed so rapidly is really remarkable. Young people in the United States, you know, are far more skeptical and ask way more questions. So who knows?
- [93:51]
B
If I may add, Bob, just very, very briefly, I mean, what I'm seeing in my daily interactions is that actually the right wing and the more conservative strains of society have actually taken a very vocal stance against war in the, in the region. A lot of them, people have interacted on the streets and in the gyms and then the like, people who would otherwise support this, so to speak, are saying that this is. We don't want to fight Israel's war. And this is a reflection of the, the American government. They can't find one cohesive or straightforward narrative to justify why they've entered into a war that's costing a billion dollars a day. I mean, imagine, Bob, for one day, I mean, us as people, as, as those on the left, what $1 billion a day could do if it were invested in preserving life, then profiting off death. And I mean, it's just horrific. But it's. I'm glad this is happening. There's this awakening on the right because I think it's very important for us on the left to break away from our echo chambers and talk to the ten socialists that we know are the ten Marxists who feel like, who agree with our positions. Because ultimately our main political objective is to change the opinions of those who don't agree with us. Right. And we can't isolate them, we can't refute them, we can't deny them. We have to actually. Our main, you know, our main objectives should be actually to reason with people who are against us and try to convince them why our argument is legitimate. And those who might have otherwise stood unequivocally with Israel in the past, they're. The one is it's that site that's actually waking up and is realizing the detriments to this.
- [95:32]
A
Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, some of these people listen to Trump's rhetoric about, like, no more forever wars, and they believed him and now they're calling them on it. You know, everyone says, how could they be so stupid to believe Trump? Well, the other side wasn't even faking it. They said, we're going to keep supporting a genocide in Gaza and we might go to war against Iran too. I mean, Hillary Clinton said that in 08. Kamala Harris said that. Right. So there was no alternative to go to when Biden lied to you and said, I'm not going to go to war. Well, on the other side saying, oh, we're going to go to war, like, you know, you're not left with a choice. So we're really in that bizarro world.
- [96:05]
B
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I mean, of course, it was Donald Trump Rumsfeld's infinite infamous statement of overthrowing seven regimes in five years. But there was 12 years of the Obama and the Biden administration that actually facilitated this. It was under Obama that Libya was, was overthrown under Biden that Syria collapsed under also Biden, that Lebanon is in this, the space it is today. And they actually laid the groundwork and footing for the war on Iran. So if anything, they are directly responsible and complicit in this. And I hope one day can be held accountable.
- [96:44]
A
Yeah, you can make a good argument that Joe Biden is the biggest Zionist. Again, American history, you know, it's, it's rough. I mean, we could go on for several more hours. We've done this before for, you know, so. And we'll, I mean, unfortunately I don't think this is going to end soon. So we'll, we'll catch up again, hopefully shortly. I just appreciate this so much. I've learned so much from you. Every time we talk, Fadi Kafiti is finishing his, I'm going to say finishing to put you on the spot.
- [97:17]
B
Right.
- [97:18]
A
Finishing his dissertation, uh, in. In Arab history. Brilliant young scholar. I can't wait to see what you produce in the future. And it's always just so illuminating and educational, informative. It's something that we're not going to hear in very many other places. And so I, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.
- [97:41]
B
The pleasure and honor is all mine, Bob. And once again, I'll reiterate this. I really hope one day we can be on your podcast and just Fox Mac and have a normal conversation for once and not talk about being. I hope I live World order.
- [97:55]
A
You've often invited me, you know, to, to sit down for a meal in a free Palestine. I hope I live that long. But who knows?
- [98:03]
B
I hope so. I hope so.
- [98:04]
A
Yeah, this is Bob Mazenko with the Green and Red Podcast. Scott's not here tonight, but I've been very lucky talking to Fadi about this really important, you know, war, this, this regional war that's going on. So check us out, just go to Google, check us out on other social media. Green and Red Podcast, we're everywhere. If you like it, you can even send a few bucks our way, whether it jingles or folds, as we always say. So thanks so much for joining us and for listening to this really illuminating discussion.
- [98:36]
B
Thank you for having me.