Ep 126. The Permaloc Playbook: From Steel to Aluminum

Summary

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Green Side Up: Ep 126 — The Permaloc Playbook: From Steel to Aluminum

Hosts: Jason Lee & Jordan Upcavage
Guest: Mark Cohen, Permaloc
Date: May 28, 2026

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Episode Theme & Purpose

This episode dives deep into the history, innovation, and business strategy of Permaloc, the pioneering leader in aluminum landscape edging. Mark Cohen, Permaloc’s Head of Revenue Generation and Marketing, joins Jason and Jordan to break down how the company shifted the industry from steel and plastic to aluminum, why edge restraint matters, and the realities and opportunities in landscape supply entrepreneurship. Expect candid stories, business insights, technical details, and practical advice—tailored for landscapers, arborists, and green industry professionals.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Permaloc Story: Invention, Innovation, and the Aluminum Shift

• Company Background

  • Founded 44 years ago by landscape architect Dan Zweir who pioneered aluminum landscape edging after dissatisfaction with steel and plastic options [08:24].
    • "Dan goes from being a practicing landscape architect...doesn't like what he sees, and guess what he does. He becomes the pioneer and the inventor of aluminum landscape edging." –Mark Cohen [09:05]
  • Permaloc is the world’s best-selling landscape edging, exclusively using aluminum for its resilience and sustainability.

• Aluminum Sourcing and Global Challenges

  • The main sources of raw aluminum (Russia, China, Qatar) are geopolitically volatile, affecting supply and commodity prices [10:13].
  • Manufacturing is US-based in Holland, Michigan, but dependent on global sources for aluminum billets.

2. Why Aluminum? The Technical Case

• Problems with Steel & Plastic
  • Steel: Heavy, rusts, unwieldy.
  • Plastic: Warps, cracks, aesthetically unappealing.
• Aluminum Benefits
  • Lighter weight, high strength-to-weight ratio, corrosion resistant, sustainable, recyclable, easier to install [13:07].
    • "It's more resilient, it's more sustainable, and it's lighter weight, it lasts forever." –Mark Cohen [39:12]
  • Can be manufactured to high quality and environmental standards, fits the needs for specifiers focused on sustainability and lead projects [41:53].

3. The Distribution and Business Model Evolution

• From Direct to Distributor Model

  • Originally sold direct to contractors but shifted to selling via distributors like Heritage Landscape Supply to scale nationwide [21:00].
  • Sells through a multi-layered rep structure (approx. 50 reps) covering both distribution sales and direct-to-specifier (architect/landscape architect) education [29:04].

• Importance of “Getting on the Spec”

  • Targeting landscape architects so Permaloc is specified in project plans is the “honeypot,” driving top-down market adoption [20:20; 22:09].
    • "If it comes from the top down as specification, it's going to drive...a full circle thing." –Mark Cohen [21:30]
  • Without specification, selling to end consumers is much harder and less scalable.

4. Educating the Industry: Sales as Consultation

• Lunch-and-Learns, Industry Sponsorships, and Student Outreach

  • Mark’s approach: Industry education over traditional sales—hosting CEU lunch-and-learns for landscape architects, sponsoring ASLA, CSLA, NCLC, and more [29:30].
    • "I don't sell. I really don't. Today what I do is I educate people so they can then promote us and sell us..." –Mark Cohen [35:27]
  • Early engagement: Sponsorship of student events like LaBash and NCLC creates brand affinity with future pros [33:05].

• Mark’s Sales Philosophy

  • Emphasizes consultative and education-based selling rather than pushy tactics.
  • Internal education (customer service, spec support) is as important as external sales.

5. Regional Adoption Challenges and Trends

• Historic Steel Dominance & Geographic Variations

  • Steel is still entrenched in markets like Texas and Colorado, requiring market-by-market education to flip perceptions [37:38].
    • "For some God knows reason, people in Texas like rusty looking steel." –Mark Cohen [45:00]
  • Success seen in flipping Pacific Northwest from steel to aluminum [45:08].

• Product Customization for Market Needs

  • Development of new products for applications like resin-bound aggregate (Resin Stop, developed for ACE Resin and SiteOne) to meet emerging hardscape trends [55:52].

6. Project Applications and Real-World Examples

• Types of Edging & Installation Best Practices

  • Clarified distinctions between flat landscape edging, L-shaped paver restraint, and specialty products for resin-bound aggregate or permeable pavers [49:47].
  • Emphasized the importance of using the right edge product for the right application:
    • "If you use flat landscape edging...it's going to tip over. You do want to use an L shape restraint..." –Mark Cohen [49:44]

• Iconic Installations

  • Used at Lady Diana Memorial Fountain (UK), Buckingham Fountain (Chicago), Walt Disney Concert Hall (LA), Obama Presidential Library, and many more [57:11].

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Life in the Desert:
  "Have you ever opened up an oven and it felt that blast of heat hit you? Yeah, that's about the same thing." –Mark Cohen [03:49]

• On Educational Sales:
  "I always pipe up right away. My wife does something really important...she saves people's lives from breast cancer. They look at her and say, so what does he do? He's in sales." –Mark Cohen [35:20]

• On Market Penetration:
  "We spend a lot of time working in markets where it's a steel-dominated market. To flip that market to aluminum, we're winning, we're winning big time." –Mark Cohen [39:12]

• On Trying to Skimp:
  "Anytime I try to, oh, I'll just do this over here, I get called out on it, and then it costs me money." –Jason Lee [25:10]

• On Education Over Sales:
  "It's not a high pressure sales thing. It's really, it's more of a consultative thing. If we lead you to the water, we give you the education, you make an informed decision, then it all comes out cohesively." –Mark Cohen [37:03]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Time | Segment | |------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:47-04:28 | Opening banter, Jason & Jordan’s desert adventures, intro to Mark Cohen | | 04:56-08:24 | Backstory: Permaloc origins, Brent Burke & Wealthy, distributor relationships | | 08:24-11:35 | The aluminum vs. steel origin story, aluminum sourcing, US manufacturing | | 13:07-14:38 | Jason’s experience as a contractor: shifting from plastic edging to aluminum | | 15:34-17:17 | Mark’s career path: architecture, sales, early lessons | | 17:17-20:20 | From architecture to green infrastructure—finding greater purpose | | 20:20-24:50 | Importance of getting specified/"on plan," distribution model evolution | | 25:28-29:15 | Multi-layered sales strategy—distributors, reps, and education | | 29:30-33:04 | ASLA, CSLA involvement; student event sponsorships (LaBash, NCLC) | | 33:05-37:03 | Educating contractors and future pros, “I don’t sell, I educate” | | 37:03-39:12 | Product categories, differences: landscape, hardscape, structure, regional variation in adoption | | 41:31-43:39 | Recycled content, environment, sustainability, lead projects | | 47:13-50:44 | Paver restraint edging, installation best practices, “wet set” vs. above-ground methods | | 53:12-55:44 | Resin-bound aggregate innovation, ACE Resin partnership, future product trends | | 57:11-58:24 | Permaloc on iconic & high-profile projects, not just commercial—practical use cases | | 58:49-62:28 | How to find Permaloc: website, chatbots, social media, educational content | | 62:30-End | Closing thoughts, contact info, Mark’s LinkedIn “thought leadership” posts, wrapping up |

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Where to Find Permaloc & Resources

• Permaloc Website with Chatbot & CAD Details
  • "It’s all there. Bing. Boom." –Jordan Upcavage [62:34]
• CADDetails.com and LandFX (coming soon)
• YouTube: Installation & showcase videos
• Publications: Land magazine, Hardscape magazine, Lawn and Landscape magazine
• LinkedIn: Mark M. Cohen’s thought leadership posts
• Corporate contact: 800-356-9660

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Takeaway Wisdom

• Innovation in niche products comes from listening to field pain points and reimagining standards.
• In the green industry, the power of specification and professional education outweighs any traditional sales pitch.
• “Edge” isn’t just a border—it’s what defines, protects, and sustains the beauty and value of landscape projects for years.

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Transcript

[Jason Lee]

Welcome to Green side Up, the perfect podcast for small business entrepreneurs looking to cultivate success in the landscaping and tree care industry. Join Jason Lee, a seasoned landscaper, and Jordan Upkavage, a true tree whisperer, as they share their wealth of experience and insights to navigate the challenges of growing your business. Get ready to hear real life stories, practical solutions, and invaluable advice that will empower you to thrive amidst the chaos of entrepreneurship. And now, let's keep the Green side

[Mark Cohen]

Up with your hosts, Jason Lee and Jordan Upkevage.

[Jordan Upkavage]

In progress, where he would, you know, camp all throughout, wherever, and then he would go pick up a job over here and an environmental job over in Utah. So he's kind of a gypsy guy. So me, he goes, jordan, you got to come out to Palm Desert. You got to come check this out. It's beautiful. It's crazy. The deserts of California, you got to check it out. So me, my buddy Duncan, my cousin Christopher from Texas, we fly out there and we all pile in a four runner. We go to the high desert up in the mountains and we camp up there. And I wake up and it's freezing cold. And you're not allowed to have a fire, but I started a fire anyway because I'm shivering to death. And then we're just binge drinking and doing psychedelic drugs. And then we go to the low desert and we're four wheeling through it, and we sleep in Joshua Tree. And then we go through these crazy dry riverbeds that are all like wind torn with tunnels and then the stars at night, and then there's like boulders and shit everywhere. And my cousin goes, hey, man, you should sleep on the other side of that rock. I'm like, why? It's in the middle of the night. We're in the fricking desert. He goes, man, well, when the sun comes up, it's gonna sting you in the eyes, bro. You gotta go in west side of the rock. That way when the sun comes up, you're in the shade, man. And I was like, son of a. So I queezle around to the other side of the rock and damn it, he was right. When the sun came up, I was in this perfect nugget of shade. And there was some wisdom to the desert gypsy. So that's how I know Palm Desert. And we saw the Sultan Sea, right? That really salty area where tweakers hang out. We saw that. Yeah, we were tweeting.

[Mark Cohen]

You did it all.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Yeah.

[Mark Cohen]

I don't know what to tell you. I was going to invite you Out. But you've seen it all. I think you've done more than I've done, buddy.

[Jordan Upkavage]

We spent three nights in the desert and then we're like, we need a shower. So we like rented a hotel room, we all showered up, and then we went to the nudie bar. And then the next day we flew home. That was my experience.

[Mark Cohen]

Nice. Nice. I'm glad this is your recording and not my recording. Yeah, it's.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Well, this is a. This is a Green side down episode.

[Mark Cohen]

This is hysterical. Hysterical. Yeah. The desert has a lot to offer. It's not for everybody, obviously. We lived by the beach in Orange county in Southern California. So we were, you know, we could walk on the sand, walk on the beach, see the sunset, all that sort of thing. And bought the second house out in the desert. And my wife said, hey, guess what? Let's cash out during COVID Let's go live in the desert full time. So if I look at my phone right now. Oh, wow. It's cool. This morning it's only 83.

[Jason Lee]

Okay.

[Mark Cohen]

Supposed to be 130 or 150 or 175 or 200 by the afternoon, but.

[Jason Lee]

Yeah.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Low humidity, right?

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah. Less than 20%. Okay. Yeah, less than 20%. So have you ever opened up an oven?

[Jordan Upkavage]

Yeah.

[Mark Cohen]

And it felt that blast to heat hit you? Yeah, that's about the same thing. Oh, it's only supposed to be 99 today. How about that?

[Jordan Upkavage]

All right.

[Mark Cohen]

Gotta love it. So anyway, yeah, it's a good place to be. It's not conducive to traveling across the country all the time because I spend most of my time in the eastern time zone. So. Yeah, it is what it is. So we played. We walked the PGA tournament. PGA Championship two days ago where they're playing in Philadelphia. Yeah, super cool. We played golf there. We did lots of good things with my reps, so you see how hard I'm working.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Yeah. Well, this is no time like the present. Welcome back to the Green side Out podcast.

[Mark Cohen]

Let's. Yeah, let's.

[Jason Lee]

We'll. We'll roll right into it.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Mark, Jordan. Jordan up Cavage on the horn next to Jason Lee, my better looking co host.

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan Upkavage]

And on the other end of the country, we have Mr. Mark Cohen with Permalock, who is a desert dweller and a. A golfing guy. So welcome to the show, Mark.

[Mark Cohen]

Thanks, guys. Happy to be here.

[Jason Lee]

So, Mark, we got connected through Brent Burke with Wealthy Inc. Brent is. Sometimes I still. I think I'm starting to learn more about what Wealthy is as just a material distributor, but it took a little while for me to wrap my head around it. And it was really, you know, we got connected with you guys as one of the sponsors for the Landscape Rodeo event that we put on with Wealthy. Anyway, Brent helped organize, you know, a lot of. A lot of the people within their distributorship to come and present their products, you know, on display during the event. And so anyway, that was our connection. So we much appreciate your. Your sponsorship there with the Landscape Rodeo and joining us on the podcast today.

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah, of course. Happy to be here. Brent happens to work for Welty, as you said, and Welty is our representative firm or rep agency in the state of Florida. And I just flew down a few weeks ago and had a little bit of fun with those guys because they are my number one rep agency in the entire country. Nice. And they increased seven figures last year. And I said, what can I do good for you to sort of reward you for what you did? And I said, how about I fly down, we'll play golf, we'll take your spouses out for dinner. Their answer is, we don't play golf. I said, okay, you're in Florida. How we go fishing. How about we go fishing for the day and then we'll go take your spouses for dinner? Yeah, no, we don't think that's a good idea. So what we ended up doing is we had front row seats at the Tampa Bay Rays game, All right. Literally right above the Cincinnati Reds dugout, looking at the field. Just had a phenomenal time. And the day during the daytime, for fun, we got on Waverunners and we were jumping wakes and waves in the St. Petersburg Bay. So not a. Not a bad thing.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Oh, good deal, man. That's right in my backyard. I am in Tampa. And everything that you just laid out is in the greater backyard of where you're at, correct?

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah. So good stuff.

[Jordan Upkavage]

So the Rays are fun. If you have the opportunity to take a client out for another sporting event. Tampa Bay Lightning games are the jam.

[Mark Cohen]

They are awesome. That big bar that's right outside the stadium, that goes on and on and on and on. We finished the race game.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Nice.

[Mark Cohen]

They got blown out. And then we watched the Lightning qualify for the playoffs.

[Jordan Upkavage]

There we go. But yeah, if you can go to Emily arena, those are awesome in person games. And what I like about them, it's like three hours and you're out. You know, you go to a Bucks game, it's four hours. It can be hot as dog do. But lightning, oh, man, it's It's a ton of fun down there in downtown Tampa. Sure is.

[Mark Cohen]

Great.

[Jason Lee]

So, Mark, how. Well, I guess we can start off with just some of your backstory of history and business and where you've. Where you've come from. But how long have you been with Permalock? How did you get into the landscaping supply? Well, hold on.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Let's back up. Let's start over with what is Permalock. We have to. We have to go over what is the concept of Permalock. What is it? Because we have landscapers, we have arborists that are listeners. We have, you know, I am more

[Jason Lee]

familiar with Permalock as we install it on our landscaping projects.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Well, you're a landscaper and I'm a tree guy. So what, Mark, tell us about your product, your business, and then the story of how you became the successful businessman that you are.

[Mark Cohen]

Tell you what, we can do that one promise. I don't mediate tree guys and landscape guys, just FYI. Promise you that. But anyway, what is Permalock? Permalock is actually a pretty interesting company. It's the pioneer of landscape edging made out of aluminum, owned by a landscape architect. His name is Dan Zwier. 44 years ago, now we're on our 44th year. 44 years ago, Dan Zweir graduates from college as a landscape architect, goes in the field. Start specifying. With that being said, at that point in time, the predominant landscape edging was made out of steel. Everybody thought that it had to be steel because it had to be thick and heavy to be durable. Dan didn't like that idea. There was also plastic out there, and plastic warps and cracks and it does all the fun stuff plastic does. So with that in mind, Dan goes from being a practicing landscape architect to being a design build guy. Doesn't like what he sees, and guess what? He does. He becomes the pioneer and the inventor of aluminum landscape edging. So today, we are the world's best selling landscape edging worldwide. We document this every single year. It's sort of interesting to find these things out. We've had some containers trying to get through the straight of Hormuze recently as an example to tell you about shipping across the world. But we are the pioneer. So we're on our 44th year in business. We only make product out of aluminum. Aluminum is really unique in the fact that it's resilient, it is sustainable. What golf.

[Jordan Upkavage]

So what Gulf state produces this?

[Mark Cohen]

Interestingly enough, the largest sources of raw aluminum around the world are in some of the Most volatile places in the world. So take Russia, take China. Yeah. Two of the most volatile places in the world.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Yeah.

[Mark Cohen]

When you, when you start seeing spikes in commodities and aluminum is a commodity, then you look to why those spikes are even occurring. And one of the reasons that's happened recently is Iran, with the war.

[Jason Lee]

Yes.

[Mark Cohen]

And with its out reach to bomb different areas, bombed one of the largest smelters in the entire world of aluminum. And that was in Qatar.

[Jordan Upkavage]

No joke. So. Yeah, the Iranians bombed Qatar. Yes, they hit the smelting plant. So Qatar smelting aluminum puts a squeeze on the sourcing the aluminum to make your permalock edge.

[Mark Cohen]

Make it, make aluminum worldwide. Aluminum. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it used to be that the United States years and years ago, used to have all those smelting plants all around the United States. So it is not the case today. And because that's not the case, a lot of it passes through other areas. We're a US manufacturer based in Holland, Michigan. Westerns, western part of Michigan. So we manufacture, we make the products here, but we have to buy raw products someplace to actually manufacture.

[Jordan Upkavage]

How does it come to you? Does it come to you in spools, cubes, cylinders?

[Mark Cohen]

It's called billets.

[Jason Lee]

Billets.

[Mark Cohen]

It comes, it comes in aluminum billets.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Just like how baseball bats are billets before they're laid.

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah, a little bit. And then it's extruded. So it's like pushing hot molten aluminum metal through what's called a die and make it your extruded aluminum legs.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Yep. So your factory heats it up, these cylinders of aluminum, heat it up, put it into this squeezy thing and then out of the piping nozzle for piping frosting squeezes the permalock shape and product through the.

[Mark Cohen]

Well, we thing, we have partners, we partner with partners to help us with some of those processes. But by the time it comes to us, we're forming, we're stamping, we're doing all the different things from that point forward. So it's really an interesting process. You know, it's funny, my, my kids are now grown, but my kids used to say, hey dad, what do you do for a living? And I tell them what I do for a living. And then they say, so what else do you sell besides edging? Yeah, it's edging. Yeah, but what else do you do? It's a great business, but it's a niche business at the same time. So to say it's something that's specified at the top end by landscape Architects. It's something that defines a landscape project, but it is just edging.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Yeah.

[Jason Lee]

And, you know, so I started. Well, Jordan and I met in college, Mark, and prior to college, you know, I started dabbling in landscape design and installation on my own. Well before I started Sky Frog. But I would do these projects and I would just see this plastic edging around flower beds, and I thought it was awful. And then I just. But I thought it was necessary. And so as I started my landscaping career, I would install plastic edging from Home Depot. And I just despised it to the point that I made it just to make such a beautiful landscape and then put this edging around. It was awful. And so then I kind of just stopped. And it wasn't the end of the world without it. But then sometimes edging definitely serves a purpose and it has a great benefit. And I don't know at what point in time. Maybe I can ask Brent or maybe I just wasn't paying attention. But one day there was an aluminum edging option, you know, at Heritage Landscape Supply. And it's like, oh, we're carrying aluminum edging now. It's like, oh, let me look at it. And I look at it like, wow, this looks way better than plastic edging. So it's like, now we have a great, you know, a great source of edging that we can install. And, you know, unless, you know, we also do landscape maintenance. Unless we happen to run it over or damage it with a piece of equipment, I mean, it's. It holds up extremely well. So, yeah, the. The days of plastic edging, I'm very. And we still rip it out of, you know, landscapes of someone still putting it in. But anyway, we're very glad to have an aluminum edging option.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Plant healthcare seems to be all the buzz in the green industry right now. Are you like many business owners that don't know how or where to start, or are you looking to add a new tool to your PHC toolbox?

[Jason Lee]

Mitigro is an innovative product that focuses on root and soil health. A different approach than loading up the ground with more npk. Mitigro is a blend of mycorrhizae, fungi, bacteria, vitamin B and iba, which is a rooting hormone.

[Jordan Upkavage]

The concept is simple. More roots equals a healthier and more robust plant. This simple concept is exactly why both Jason and I have incorporated Mitigro into our PHC programs. Deep root applications on my end for mature or struggling trees, soil drenches, and spray applications for when Jason installs trees and installs new.

[Jason Lee]

Sod Give Mitigro a shop for yourself. Their product is easy to apply and no special licenses are needed. Visit mitigrow pro.com to learn more. That's M I T O Gr O W Pro.

[Mark Cohen]

Com.

[Jordan Upkavage]

So how did you stumble into this? How does Mark, how long have you been with Permalock?

[Mark Cohen]

Literally, I think I'm on my fifth year if I remember correctly. So, okay, just say so so not, not for eons and eons. Okay. Educated at the. And I will clarify the Ohio State.

[Jordan Upkavage]

I was waiting for it. Yes, yes, because you're not. You're not a Miami guy. It was e you or it was the. Okay, a frickin buck guy. All right, if I could arm wrestle you from here, I would. Mark, come on.

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah, you know how that come out? You can try all you wish, but yeah. Educated at Ohio State. Studied architecture. Found my way into sales somewhere along the way. When I was young, dumb and stupid. Once I got out there, very first thing I ever sold, believe it or not, was something you had to memorize 10 structures closest to make a sale. So you were expected to close that sale every single time. So you walk in and you talk to somebody and they say, no, it's price. Okay, great, here's the next close. And here's the next close. And here's the next close. So very interesting way to learn sales, but actually very, very good. Over the years I got this sort of coupled my construction background, my architectural background and parlayed that with sales into the industry. Found myself into this industry and really, really enjoyed it. So coming from the architectural world. Go ahead.

[Jordan Upkavage]

What were you drawing? What were you designing?

[Mark Cohen]

I was in the architectural world. So literally the first thing that I ever did in my career with any design was I worked for the largest union roofing and sheet metal company in the state of Ohio.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Okay.

[Mark Cohen]

And I get sent off at 16 years old to go to Builders Exchange in Columbus, Ohio to take a drafting class. And so I'm. I'm the kid working in the shop and driving a forklift around, pissing off all the union workers. Because here's this kid driving a forklift when a union guy should have even should have been doing it. They swore I'd come around the corner on two wheels and all sorts of things, which that's why I still have propane, because I love the smell of propane because of that. So we all come up with strange stories, but long and short of it, as I go to Builders Exchange of Columbus, Ohio, I'm in room with guys that are probably my age today, learning how to draft. I come back to the reunion riffety sheet metal company. The first thing I do is I design the roof detail for the tallest building in Columbus, Ohio. So it's, it's interesting when you look at whether it be architecture or landscape architecture, you go to school to learn theories, practices, you learn specifics on how to build things, how to construct things, how to put things together. You learn the design aspects, but you don't literally learn product information. You learn fundamentals. You learn fundamentals. So like landscape architects, I joke every time I do a lunch and learn. You guys studied plants and climate change. Now I'm here to talk to you about landscape edging. So anyway, I digress. But that's how I started. I worked in the field and I somehow years ago, found the green infrastructure world. And when I found the green infrastructure world, it sort of gave purpose, you know, from a design aspect. I learned how to design on a table with a pencil and a T square and all that sort of stuff. Windows, doors, storefront curtain wall, things that you see on the outside of a building as an example. And there is some sustainability aspect to that. For an example, you put low E glass on a building as an example. It helps insulate it. So a little bit of that. But I found my way into the green infrastructure world and it had some purpose now because now all of a sudden we're doing something good for somebody. You're not just designing and selling a product that just goes into something to make it look pretty or whatever the case may be. But we've got a purpose behind it. So now today I'm in charge of revenue generation for our organization, in charge of marketing for our organization. And part of what I do is I go in and conduct laces, see you lunch. And learns with landscape architects. I'm literally in there educating them. And the first thing I do is I say, hey, but I'm an architect, not landscape art.

[Jordan Upkavage]

So you're. I got it. Your honey pot is having LA's spec your product in the plan. That's what you, that's what you want has to happen.

[Mark Cohen]

Realize this, Jason. We and Jordan both realize that we started off as this company that was an upstart type of product made out of an upstart type of material that was not known in the industry whatsoever.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Right?

[Mark Cohen]

So you, so you go in, you sell it to anybody and everybody you can. So we sold direct to every single contractor. Somewhere along the way we said, you know, we can't cover the whole market. We can't do it from Harlem, Michigan, so we better do something else. So we decided our, our business model was going to be to sell through distributors. Yep, exactly what you brought up, Jason. You brought up Heritage as an example and they're one of many. But we sell through distribution. Right. But as you continue to go to market and you are the original, you're the founder, you are the pioneer of a brand and I don't care what brand it is, you're going to have competition that enters the market and you're going to continually have more and more and more competition. And somebody, somebody rides your coattails. They see you're successful with it. I can do that too. Right. So as you said, our honey pot would be educating landscape architects. Because if it comes from the top down as specification, it's going to drive through that specification at the top end with a landscape architect who's going to drive down to be let out on the street. Then the contractors are going to bid on it, they're going to have to get bids from landscape contractors and that's going to go to our distribution and our distributors are going to. It's going to be a full circle thing.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Yep. No, it makes all the sense. It's like if you're a home builder and you spec gelled wind doors or Masonite, whatever, then that's the brand. And for instance, for me being the arborist, we do a lot of root pruning. So you're going to build a house. Right. And we don't want the royal. We, we as the city, we as the municipality don't want the tree to die or we don't want the roots getting ripped out with an excavator to dig the footer. So barring the respective distance you can be from the tree, those roots need to be cleanly cut so they're not damaged. Right. Most of the time, most of the root pruning I do is due to municipal requirement. If there was not the municipal, which is the parallel to the landscape architecture requirement, it's in the plans, therefore it's gotta be right. If I have to do air spading, it's in the plans. That's the way it's gotta be. And without that requirement and me trying to educate the end consumer about this product is just. It costs more money than there's drops of lemon juice in the lemon. So that's why it makes total sense. You want to be on the spec end, gaining that trust, goodwill, product value with the designer or la. So it goes in, makes all the sense, absolutely.

[Jason Lee]

And we love having things, I mean, well, anything specified for us. You know, across the country, I have some friends that are contractors in larger markets that, you know, they have residential plans drawn by landscape architects. It's not as common here. It seems like, at least in our area of Florida, that that's the thing. But on our commercial jobs that we bid, you know, having those specifications from architects is extremely important because then everyone's bidding on the same scope of work. You know, residentially. We do residential design build in Gainesville and you know, a lot of us, renovations, we're ripping out 20 year old landscapes, we're putting new stuff in. Yeah, we might have a competitor we're bidding on. Maybe we're the only one given a price, but you know, we can pick and choose what we want to use. But when you go out to bid these large construction jobs, which we are, I mean, having everything specified and knowing that it's going to be held to those standards by landscape architect is, you know, for us an easy thing. It's like just follow the plan and make life simple.

[Jordan Upkavage]

And you hope they inspect, damn it, you hope. Because if there's no teeth, it's pointless. If there are no teeth in that dog's mouth, it is pointless.

[Jason Lee]

Us.

[Mark Cohen]

I sure hope they, I, I need to use you as my poster child because we sit here, we talk about it, we preach it all day long. You know, spec at the top end, install at the bottom end, follow the rules, follow the specs, follow all of that. And then you get the guy that wants to be you out or he wants to flip a spec on you.

[Jason Lee]

And, and, and those are, unfortunately, those are still our competitors and they still do it. And I just don't have the cojones to do it because I've been, anytime I try to, oh, I'll just do this over here, I get called out on it and then it costs me money. So now I'm of the framer. It's like, well, no, I'm just gonna, it's either I'm gonna do what the plan says or I'm not gonna, you know, we're not gonna win the work, so.

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Yeah. Or you're like skimping on mulch depth or you're stepping from a seven to a three or 15 to a seven gallon.

[Jason Lee]

Yeah. The biggest games are played within with

[Jordan Upkavage]

plants, Plant material size.

[Jason Lee]

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Hard good. Hard good. Specifications are, are normally held, held pretty sturdy.

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's the fun. I, I, I walk in These landscape architecture firms and they can be in a high rise building and downtown in, in Manhattan for an example, in New York City. And I could be looking out and saying those used to be 5 gallon and 15 gallon little plants and those are the lines that change. And then our engine is what holds it and keeps it the same. So it's pretty cool stuff.

[Jordan Upkavage]

So how do you go about. So you're in charge of, I said revenue development, something along those lines. Revenue growth, how that. That's similar to business development. It's a parallel. Call it the same thing if you want. How do you go out and hunt that work? I would assume you would research cold call firms that pass mark smell test of qualifying. And then how do you set up? You set a lunch and learn, right? So that's how you get the information. Walk me through that. Hunting the prospects, because that can relate to a lot of businesses, regardless of what widget of product or service they're offering.

[Mark Cohen]

And you're absolutely right, Jordan. Early in my career, as I told you, I learned this, learned this 10 step structured close and we went from there to a little bit more consultative sales process over the years of growth. And I've actually consulted and trained all across North America, trained people in how to sell and how to go to market and how to prospect and all of that. Today Permalot goes to market just a slight bit differently. So at the top end, we're educating landscape architects. Our goal is to get them to have enough knowledge about actually back up slightly. Our lunch and learn or our CU presentation is called Lion's Edges in Eternity. It's the lines that you draw. The edges that exist should last forever. So we start off explaining why does edging even exist? Okay. Because at the fundamental or the root of it all, whether it's a contractor, whether it's a distributor or whether it's an architect, they need to understand why it's important to even put landscape edging in. So from that standpoint, we educate at the top end. So there's a reason for them to specify us the next level down. We sell through distribution. That's our business model. So there's roughly, I don't know, maybe 1500 or more branches in multiple different brands that sell our product around North America. So we educate them. So it's more of a consultative thing where we're coming in, we're giving you the information, we're giving you the training, we're teaching you, we're leading you to it. And then again to cover the entire North America. Foundation, we added another layer which is distributor reps. So we have rep agencies all around the country and in Canada as well. Who are our salespeople? So we have roughly 40 salespeople out there calling on our distributors. And then finally I've got another group of another 10 landscape architectural reps that are calling on landscape architects. So it's, it's multi layered.

[Jordan Upkavage]

So you have 10 people hunting under

[Mark Cohen]

you and we actually have about 50 people under our signing. So we've got 10 going to our landscape architects and we have another 40 going to the distributors and the contractors.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Got it. So tell me about the 10 hunting the La's.

[Mark Cohen]

So do you go. Yeah, go ahead.

[Jason Lee]

So do you go to a commonplace? I mean do you guys go to like all the ASL ASLA shows as trade shows?

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah, so. So, so, so Permalock is what's called a platinum sponsor of ASLA on a nationwide basis. Sort of a top tier supplier within asla. Likewise, we are a member of csla which is the same entity but for the Canadian application as well. So we, we participate in all of that, number one, we conduct, we, we do, we exhibit at those functions. We participate in those functions and then we get out and participate in the local chapters as well with our district, with our architectural reps and without them because they're in there on their own promoting us as well. In addition to that, we are a large sponsor of. I gotta get all my acronyms right, laf, which is Landscape Architectural Foundation. So in a couple of weeks we'll be in Detroit, Michigan for Landscape Architectural Foundation. 60th anniversary party. Cool. So we sponsor at the top end and give back. In addition to that there are a couple of students run functions. One is called labash. LA Bash is where all of the landscape architectural students from around the country and around North America get together to learn from each other and teach each other and learn from professionals at a specific university. And it rotates from University university every single year. Permalact's a primary sponsor of that too. So we are at that level educating the future landscape architects, the future professionals of the industry. And then likewise, you guys may have heard of it and may not have, but there's something called nclc, the National Collegiate Championship of Landscape Professionals that also moves from university to university every year. And Permalock is a primary sponsor of that for Hardscape and landscape as well. So with all of this we have

[Jordan Upkavage]

competed in that when?

[Mark Cohen]

Before.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Before we had gray hair in our faces and children in our loins and rings on Our finger. We competed as students.

[Mark Cohen]

You know what, it's, it's hysterical. We go in there every single year. So La Bash, if I back up just a bit, La Bash, we're the primary there. And when we finish the three days that night, we're on stage and I'm on stage and we have this trophy called the Permalaut cup. That looks like a Stanley Cup. It's got a big bowl on top of it. And so we call up to two students that led Labash at their university for the past year. We congratulate them, we talk about them a little bit, we fill it with beer. They both get to drink out of it. And then we refill it with beer and we call up the two students for the next year. So this past year, year, actually earlier this year was I got to get on stage. I'm on a rooftop deck enclosed in Columbus, Ohio, at the Ohio State University. And I, everybody knew where I was from and where I went to school. And I got to say I grew up out there. If I pointed out the windows that way and getting these kids excited. Then we brought up the ASU students from next year, Arizona State, and they just ate this up. So it was a blast.

[Jordan Upkavage]

That's awesome.

[Mark Cohen]

That's Labash. But then we get into NCLC and we do the same exact thing. And so every single year at nclc, we partner with a hardscape manufacturer. We go in a classroom atmosphere, in a lecture hall and we talk about hardscape and what it means, why hardscape is even there and how you install it and all that. And then we invite them out to the job site to come see how it's all going to play out. The kids that, kids that are really into it come out with the job site with us. The ones that don't go out show up the next day and they're handed a plan at 8 o' clock in the morning. They got X amount of time and they got to put in a paver patio, they got to put in permalock structure, edge restraint all the way around. They got to build a retaining wall. And so it's two person teams with a professor standing over them and that professor is not allowed to help them. And so the kids that came out the day before, they know that our product comes in eight foot lengths. It's an eight by eight by eight by eight pad. And literally if they take structure and bend it in half at four feet, four corners, put it around it, put some spikes in the ground, they're Good to go. The ones that didn't come out the day before are sitting there looking at the plans and they're grabbing our products. Then they're looking for a rusted hacksaw because everybody has a rusty hacksaw and they're trying to figure it out. So it's always a crack up. But we, in answer to your question, that sort of long winded story is we work at the student level to educate the future specifiers and the future contractors of the world. Then we educate. Then we educate. And my wife is there. If you ask my wife, she's in the other room training doctors virtually right now. We'll meet a couple for the first time and some of our friends retired, some of them are still working. Somebody else, they said, what do you guys do for a living? Well, I always pipe up right away. My wife does something really important. My wife trains radiologists in hospitals all over North America. Pretty damn important. She saves people's lives from breast cancer. They look at her and say, so what does he do? He's in sales. He's in sales.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Yeah.

[Mark Cohen]

Because you just. Yeah, go ahead.

[Jordan Upkavage]

I was gonna say you just sold the importance of your wife's job.

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah, yeah. I don't, I don't, I don't sell. I really don't. Today what I do is I educate people so they can then promote us and sell us and make good informed decisions. In addition to that, we have a team in Permalock inside our corporate offices in Holland, Michigan. I've got inside salespeople, I've got customer service people and I've got specification people as well. And we educate and assist our customers that way as well. So sort of the, the full gamut if it works right. I'll give you an example. I was in Houston, Texas and Dallas, Texas a week and a half ago. We did six lunch and learns in landscape architectural firms in a two day period of time. In that room I had my landscape architectural rep, I had me as the manufacturer. I had one of my distributor reps in the market as well. Sometimes I'll invite in an actual distributor as well, sometimes the contractor as well. But I can literally tell that landscape architect if you put Permalock in the plant. This is your rep that's going to be here to help you with the specs. This is your rep that knows where the contractors are, who the contractors are that know our product and install it and don't ve it out. And this is the person who knows the distributors that stock and sell our products. So it's not a high pressure sales thing. It's really, it's more of a consultative thing. If we lead you to the water, we give you the education, you make an informed decision, then it all comes out cohesively.

[Jordan Upkavage]

When it's, yeah, that's just, that's good business, it's education based. That's just good business. Dave, do you know there has to be some sort of a regional trend of using your product versus not using your product? Is there, tell me where that is. Where is it going in off the wall? It's everywhere. And then where's a market that you're looking for? Is it, is it soil profile related? Is it culture? Is it the presence or absence of stone?

[Jason Lee]

It's really.

[Mark Cohen]

So if you, if you dissect our product categories, we have basically 10 product categories. But the major product categories are edging for landscape. So landscape edging, that would be one. The second one would be hardscape. Hardscape meaning anything that's brick, pavers, porcelain, tile, travertine, things of that sort. Third category would be what we call on structure. On structure could be a green roof on the top of a big skyscraper, or it could be amenity deck on a building of any sort. In addition to that, there's several other categories. Asphalt as an example, University tracks and playgrounds is another example. And so on down the line. But in answer to your question, is it geographical, is it soil related, is it all of that? Well, you got to understand, 44 years ago, we came into a market that was dominated by one product and it was steel. So we've spent 44 years working to flip the mindset, educate people, get them to understand the difference. So for an example, the reason why aluminum and landscape edging exists is that it is one fifth the weight of steel edging, but it's got high strength to weight ratio. So in other words, it's more resilient, it's more sustainable and it's lighter weight, it's easier to install, it lasts forever. Steel you put in the ground, it's going to rest sometime. That's a fact of life. So we spend a lot of time working in markets where it's a steel dominated market. To flip that market to aluminum, we're winning, we're winning big time. We wouldn't be who we were if we weren't. The hardscape arena is a little bit different. So there are two hardscape governing bodies. They used to be one and, well, they are one and the same. They were called one thing and now they're called another thing. So ICPI is now CMHA Concrete Missionary Hardscape Association. We at the top end sit on their committees and boards helping to educate them. So they put the right things in the specs. So they actually put in their specific that aluminum landscape edging or aluminum landscape paver restraints should be utilized around pavers because vehicular traffic and pedestrian traffic cause pavers to separate and move. We get into markets where that contractor says, now all I do is concrete. You guys are in Florida, I can tell you. Florida. Florida contractors think that they got to put concrete all the way around. Well, we always joke around it because if it's done right, it works, right? Dig a trench, build a form, put in the concrete, do it right, it'll work. These guys don't do that for the most part. These guys get that five gallon pail from whoever was handing it out at the trade show. They poured some cement dust in, there's no aggregate. Pour some water in, use a pointed trial, stir it all around, slap it out and it's going to crack. So that's part of what we do too. So geographically, I'm not sure it's geographically so much as it is. Where are the opportunities to give people what they really should be using? So aluminum is all. Aluminum is 100% recyclable. Our product comes from a minimum of 50% recycled material content. If you install aluminum landscape edging in the ground, if, when you're doing it right, you dig a 4 inch trench, drop it in, stake it, backfill it in, if that's all done right, it's going to last forever. We have never had a failure reported because of material. Never is.

[Jordan Upkavage]

So that's is the 50% recyclable, what is the purpose of that? Is it cheaper? Is there a government perk? Is there a environmental mission statement in the DNA of permalock? What is the reason of 50% recyclable?

[Mark Cohen]

It's really the sourcing of aluminum in general.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Out of necessity.

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah, yeah, the sourcing of aluminum. I mean, think about all the pop cans that are out there as an example. It's the sourcing. Aluminum in general is really what drives that from. A sustainability factor. That's super important though, right? You start talking about projects with lead qualifications, example. All of that leads towards that.

[Jordan Upkavage]

So is the cost of recycled aluminum the same as raw billets from Qatar?

[Mark Cohen]

You know, I don't know that I can answer that and be truthful.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Okay.

[Mark Cohen]

Really honest.

[Jordan Upkavage]

I wonder, is it cheaper? Is it more or you Just can't buy enough raw billets so you gotta buy cans. Do you want your office phone to ring more and increase service request to your inbox? Want to push the gas pedal on your lead volume?

[Jason Lee]

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[Jordan Upkavage]

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[Jason Lee]

Intrigue Media is fast tracking lead volume for both Sky Frog landscape and independent tree service. You should give them a try for your business. Visit intriguemedia.com if you want to make more money and crush your competitors online, that's intriguemedia.com I think it all comes

[Mark Cohen]

together and quite honestly, if I answer that question, I'm gonna be answering it wrong. I guarantee somebody's gonna call me on the carpet on it. So.

[Jordan Upkavage]

No, but it sounds sexy. I 50% or so, this green company.

[Mark Cohen]

But what's the real reason?

[Jordan Upkavage]

You know, it's okay. I was just curious.

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so let's, let's dig into it a little bit different, deeper. So we start talking about is it geographical? This is soil related, Is it all those different things? When it comes to hardscape and hardscape restraints, certainly there's different depths of bases and whether it's compacted or uncompacted and how that installs and how you utilize it. But in terms of actual product and the material itself, yeah, there's markets that are a little bit more difficult to tackle than other markets. As an example, there's probably four primary steel edging manufacturers in the country. Two out of four of them are based in the state of Texas. So because of the state of Texas, with two out of four of those guys being there, what do those guys think about when they think about edging? Initially, they think about steel, right? And for some God knows reason, people in Texas like rusty looking steel. On top of that, you know, the quartet steel look so and interesting enough, we have a product coming out to combat that. But with that being said, we get into Northern California as an example. Used to be entirely Northern California, Oregon, Washington, the Pacific Northwest as well. Used to be loyal as loyal could be. To steel. Guess what it is now. It's predominantly aluminum. We've done our job. People see the, people see the benefit to it. Right? We get in the state of Colorado. I just got off the phone with my rep in Colorado within the last half hour ago. And what I was hoping to do was we're hoping to penetrate that market more. But there are two galvanized steel rolltalk edging manufacturers that are indigenous to that environment. People don't know any better. I mean, listen, edging makes a project look better. So Jason, you were talking your experience in installing our product. If you think about it, you dig a trench, you drop it in, you backfill it back in. It should be no more than maybe a half inch above grade. It defines that line, it holds that line. So we don't have future maintenance costs of string trimming and spade cutting and losing those lines and all of that. In the state of Colorado, these guys have this loyalty to this God awful stuff. It's 20 foot long. You walk into a distributor's yard, it's made out of galvanized. It looks like you spilled milk on it because it's already spotted all the way around. You go to pick up a 20 foot length and it's like Gumby and these guys get out in the field and they literally take a rubber mallet and they hammer it in that granite mountainous soil. And when it stops, they're done. And then they put this 1012 inch cotter pin on it, made out of galvanized as well. I literally yanked one of those out of the ground, put it in my suitcase and TSA missed it as it went through tsa. Not on purpose, I trust you that, but I could have poked, poked the pilot's eyes out with it. And yet that went through tsa. But anyway, so there are different products for different environments. Whether it be Colorado, as I illustrated, whether it be the Pacific Northwest as I illustrated, whether it be Texas. Aluminum is the product that's most resilient. It's the one that lasts forever, it's one that looks the best. And it's our job to be out there and continually educating so people understand that.

[Jason Lee]

So with your hardscape restraint edging, you know, I'm very familiar with what's. It's 8 foot, 8 foot long, 4 inches tall.

[Mark Cohen]

Right.

[Jason Lee]

Is the standard, standard edging either 8

[Mark Cohen]

or 16 foot length. Okay.

[Jason Lee]

And so I think we, I think we're buying an eight, eight foot sections. So are you using that edging as paver restraint or do you have an actual paver restraint edging that you nail

[Mark Cohen]

in and yeah, so the difference between the two is if you use a flat landscape edging, if you think about how pavers and installed, you build up your base, compact your base down, snap your pavers together, drop them into the ground, come back, fill them in with sand, come back again and fill them in with polymeric sand. The inexperienced contractor thinks, I'm done, it's glue, it's polymeric sand, it glued it together. The reality is somebody's going to walk pedestrian traffic, somebody's going to drive vehicular traffic. Those pavers are going to want to move around. If you use straight landscape edging, I don't care whether it's steel, plastic, aluminum, wood, whatever the case may be, it's going to tip over. It's not going to hold things together. So paver restraints, hardscape restraints are L shaped, they've got a lip on the bottom and they go in with a steel spike as opposed to our landscape eng, that goes in with a aluminum flat stake. Because you're going into a compacted surface, you need something that's going to be able to go in there and grab. So it's an L shaped restraint. Our restraints are reversible. Our primary ones are structure edge for pavers, brick block for brick, and the asphalt edge that sort of bridges the gap of all of that Base steps go from an inch to 5 inches. As far as the height, the installation of a paver restraint is half the height of that paver in the ground. So you're not going to see it. It suits a purpose. But the reality is it's reversible because on the outside, if we put that lip going out away from the hardscape and backfill it back in, it doesn't tip right. But if we're doing a permeable application, we reverse it and go the other way. And in CMHA's guidelines and specs, they actually call out sort of a dead man retaining wall system where you incorporate GeoGrid, our restraint product and then our capture plate, our backing plate, we fasten them all together and we run geo grid underneath the hardscape couple feet and let that all hold it in place. So you got a couple of different options. But if you use flat landscape edging, it's going to tip over. So you do want to use an L shape restraint because we don't see

[Jason Lee]

a lot of, a lot of paper restraint. I mean I don't, I don't see it anywhere in Florida to your point of concrete.

[Mark Cohen]

And I know you don't.

[Jason Lee]

And one of my biggest pet peeves is seeing concrete outside of on a paver edge. And I despise it. I don't like the aesthetics, I don't like the functionality of it. So Jordan and I were both self taught hardscapers when we lived together way back when. And one of the guys that we worked with, he taught us we will pick up our band of our pavers. So and we use concrete fines as a base here in Florida for predominantly. But we'll pick up the edge of our pavers, we'll dig our trench under the band and then we'll pour poor solid, our, our restraint under that band.

[Jordan Upkavage]

We'll dig up all the concrete fines, put them in the wheelbarrow, add Portland cement, make it concrete, then lay that back down and set the band.

[Jason Lee]

And so we may, and we may have that.

[Mark Cohen]

So the wet set, they're wet set.

[Jason Lee]

And so that concrete, that concrete will, there is some that will go outside of the band but it's not coming down an inch below or a half inch below the top of the paver and the triangle of death of concrete which nothing will grow on. But I had a, we installed a, a labyrinth paver kit that was, it's. It's the exact replica of the labyrinth on the floor of the Chartres Cathedral in France. So we got this kit from somewhere in the Midwest and they shipped it down to Florida. We installed it at Trinity United Methodist Church in Gainesville. And we, we installed it. I was very nervous. Well one about getting a puzzle and having to put together like we can't, we're not making the puzzle, we're getting the puzzle and now we're trusting that we're going to be able to put it together. So we put the puzzle together and it looked beautiful. It turned out great. And at the end of it, you know, my standard would be to concrete everything in. And I looked at it and I said this is going to be awful. You know, I don't know how long around this giant circle it was, but I said this is going to take forever. I said, given the base, our plan was to put the labyrinth in and then have a five foot, five feet around was going to be 57 stone granite and then we were going to outline that with permalock edging. So and that was the plan. And I said to myself, I need to find some paver edging. I said I'm. There's nothing here, there's no sand. I have nothing to worry About. So I called, called one of our reps and, and I didn't know that you all made paver restraint edging. And I got some plastic paper restraint edging. Then we installed it and it worked great. So now my opinion of paver restraint edging in different applications, it. I'm very much more open to it in my mind. You know, some of my concerns are if we're using it on a, a, on a soft edge of turf grass or something where we'll be edging, you know, damaging the edging mechanically by our maintenance guys. And I guess that could be because in Florida we also predominantly use stick edgers. So we're using a hard blade, hard blade edger to edge compared to a lot of other places it seems like in the country where they'll take a string trimmer and flip it up and just use the weed eater string to edge. So that's been one of my hesitations. But I think in applications or especially for going up to a planting bed or it's going to be mulch or rock around the outside, I think that, I don't know, I'm open to entertaining it for sure.

[Mark Cohen]

I think you see some benefits. I'm happy to help you with that. There's a, there's a new product that's hitting the market, permeable application product, which is resin bound aggregate surfaces. I don't know if you're familiar with that. It's becoming big and really big in the sort of the southeast market right now. When I say the southeast market, I don't mean Florida, but I mean the Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Talking about flexi pays.

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah, I don't know. That may be a brand name. It's, it's basically the resin with the aggregate in it.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Little rocks, little bits of rubber and

[Jason Lee]

so it'd be similar.

[Mark Cohen]

No, no, no, no, no, no. It's actually, it's actually a resin and the resin comes from the UK for the most part. It gets imported in and is sort of mixed with the aggregate, the rock inside it and then they trowel it out. Well, they need a restraint product all the way around that. So it's becoming bigger and bigger. It's a permeable application and you'll see it on driveways and patios and sidewalks and that sort of thing. What we found is that the contractors were going out so the distributor would sell them the product. The contractor was going out to Home Depot or Lowe's and they'd pick out a schluter, you know, like a tile schluter So I, I, I'm a woodworking guy. I love, I love doing amateur woodworking in my garage. And so I know that you go into a Home Depot or Lowe's and if you do that you're grabbing two by fours and you're grabbing boards and you're trying to see which one's the truest and the straightest.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Of course.

[Mark Cohen]

Well, just imagine doing it with this flimsy crappy aluminum or galvanized actually tile schluters and you can't do that. So we had one of our distributors come to us. One of our largest national distributors came to us and said, hey, we're getting in this business. Can you help us out? Can you make it, can you make a restraint? So we now have a product that we just introduced, possibly called Resin Stop. And it goes all the way around the outside of the, the resin but it's going to be a grade level. So they're going to actually trowel this stuff out. Just like doing concrete for the most part if you think about it, they're going to trowel it out to the height of that restraint. That restraint will already be shot into the surface. It's going to work. So it's sort of exciting. It's a little bit different. Something that you may or may not see in the future. State of Florida.

[Jason Lee]

I've been seeing. Well, I've seen ACE Resins come into the market I think being distributed.

[Mark Cohen]

So Ace Resin is our product. Yep.

[Jason Lee]

Okay.

[Mark Cohen]

So actually Ace Resin is UK based. Trevor went to work for Site one and Site one is the one that asked us to manufacture this. Now this will end up being something that'll be universally accepted around, across brands, across geographically. But yeah, it's ACE Resin that came to us by way of Site one and we made the product for it. So it's in the DCs now.

[Jason Lee]

Nice.

[Mark Cohen]

It's being instructed. They're doing hardscape training a resin stock top with the resin bound aggregate all over. So yeah, you just brought it up.

[Jason Lee]

No, I've seen, I've seen some demo areas at Site 1 branches. You know they've installed it and we saw the product probably oh two or three years ago at Sync Live that Angelique Rob puts on in Atlanta. And Ace Resin was, it was before they came into the market but they were there just promoting and saying they would be coming into the market and it, it looks like similar project. We install a product, we install a product called Flexipave in tree rings and it's rock rubber mixture that flexes tree roots and it's a, it's an epoxy based system. But, you know, and I've used permalock edging to around tree rings where we need to have a defined edge that we don't. We did some at the baseball stadium at the University of Florida. And so it definitely held in the flexipave very well.

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah, we have, we have, we have some pretty iconic projects. Angelique's been trying to get me to do that show for years, by the way. We just, we just don't quite fit it. But we've got iconic projects all over the world. So you start pointing to projects we're at, at the Lady Diana Memorial Fountain in the UK as an example. We're at facilities in Dubai. We're the largest permeable pavement installation at the Buckingham Fountain in Chicago. We're at the Diane von Furstenberg building in Manhattan. We're at the Walt Disney Concerts hall in Los Angeles. So you see these really iconic projects. We're currently on the. Without mentioning politics or even saying anything about it, we're being installed at the Obama library right now. And I always qualify that. I go and do my lunch alert. We're not talking politics, we're not talking religion. And unless you see my, my hydro flask bottle, then you don't know where I went to school because I don't usually say that as well. Right. But anyway, we do some pretty iconic things. Anyway, I, I hope we, I gave you a little bit better flavor for who we are and what we do and that kind of thing. Yeah.

[Jordan Upkavage]

This was for an arborist tree guy. Mark, I had a lot of fun talking with you over the past 55 minutes here. If a landscape listener of ours, if an arborist listen of ours, wants to look at your products and see what you have to offer. If a landscape architect listener of ours wants to get in touch with you or your product, how do they do that? Mark?

[Mark Cohen]

Mark, thank you for asking. I was hoping we did this way. Permalock is out there all over the place. So for an example, we advertise in Land magazine, We advertise in Hardscape magazine, we advertise in Lawn and Landscape magazine. So we're in a lot of publications. We're digitally quite a bit as well. But the best way to find Permalock is go to permalock.com so if you go to permalock.com, you got a bunch of tools there. You have all our products there, you have all our CAD details, you have all our specs on the website. You have a chatbot on either side of the actual website. On the bottom right is a little red chatbot where during our business hours you can literally click on that and you can talk to Adam, who's my spec guy back in Holland, Michigan on the left hand side. Whether you're a landscape architecture contractor, you are a specifier, you are a distributor. I don't care what genre you come from. You could be Sunday morning with your cup of coffee in bed and say, I want to learn about Permalock, which I hope you're not doing, but if you do, you can click on that little green icon on the left hand side and it's our AI chatbot. We build it, we designed it, it uses our website, our knowledge, our information, but it also goes to the web as well. And you literally click on it, it asks you for a disclaimer. Check that box that says yes. And then it'll pop up with all the different categories. Is it landscape, is it hardscape, is it this, is it that. And you can either follow through with that and keep answering questions till it gets to the end when it says, okay, this is the specific product, this is sku, this is the height, this is the depth, this is the application, this is what you do. Or you could just literally type into it and ask it a question and it'll spin it back out. It's super, super cool. In addition to that, you're going to find us on CAD details.com so you're going to be able to find all our CAD details and our specs there. We're working with Land F X as we speak. We Land F X has always been 3D and we're 2D, but we're going to be put on the land FX as well, where you'll be able to find us there. You can go to flickr.com people know flickr, they don't know Flickr F L I K R and you can find all our projects images, our product images and so on down the line. You can go on AAC Daily's website aecdaily.com that's where we post our lunch and learns. And they're a big, big resource for me to be able to record information and send out certificates and that sort of thing. There are so many different vehicles. You have to find Permalaunch. You can go on YouTube and you'll see all of our installation videos as well. So it's a myriad of different things. We have an 800 number we have a website. We have 50 odd people, as we've talked about, representing us around the country. We have all our major distributors. There's four major ones all around the country as well as the next level down. Tons and tons of distributors represent Permalock and love who we are and what we do. And then you've got myself and you've got my team as well. So to not be able to learn about, find and install Permalock aluminum landscape edging restraints, you'd be hard to see.

[Jason Lee]

Well, I just sounds like you've got your basis covered.

[Jordan Upkavage]

I just googled Permalock.

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah.

[Jordan Upkavage]

And here it is right there. The first one that pops up. Permalock.com. it's all there. Bing. Boom.

[Jason Lee]

Including the chatbot.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Yeah.

[Mark Cohen]

Permalock.com. yep. An 800 number, which is 800-356-9660.

[Jordan Upkavage]

Then there's a whole bunch of stuff on YouTube right there.

[Mark Cohen]

Yeah. And if they really want to do it and they want to talk to somebody and they can't find anybody, they can find me. Nine times out of ten, you're going to find out I'm on an airplane. My phone actually rings on the airplane. They forbid you from talking. But I text back on airplanes all the time. I'm always keyed in and online on airplanes as well. So they can always come to me as well. Oh, and the last thing we do every, virtually every single week, I put a LinkedIn thought leadership post up on LinkedIn. So if they go to my name, Mark M A R C Cohen, C O H E N and they want to follow me, it's super cool because I'll put up something about a distributor. Like, I was playing golf with my rep group this week in Philadelphia and we walked the PGA tournament, the PGA Championship in Philly. So we're gonna put up a little blurb. We were out there. We are not always working. Sometimes we play, we have fun and we learn from each other. And we'll put up some photos. Sometimes it's product related, sometimes it's industry related. Walking through Chicago Airport a couple weeks ago, it was just an Earth Day exhibit by American Airlines.

[Jordan Upkavage]

And sometimes you're chugging a beer out of a little permalaut cup.

[Mark Cohen]

I can't say that. Come on. Yeah, of course we have fun. But guys, I appreciate the time. It's super cool to connect with you. I think we actually talked at HNA Gie Equip maybe a year or two ago about doing this. So we finally connected and did it. And I hope everybody gets something out of it.

[Jason Lee]

Absolutely. Thank you very much for coming on. Mark, as you continue your journey toward entrepreneurial success, let Jason and Jordan be your trusted companions on this uphill climb.

[Mark Cohen]

Don't miss out on future episodes of the great Green side Up podcast.

[Jason Lee]

Make sure to hit that follow button to stay updated. For more ways to connect with the guys, check out the podcast description. Thank you for tuning in.

[Mark Cohen]

And remember, keep working hard so you

[Jason Lee]

can play even harder and keep the Green side Up.

[Mark Cohen]

Sa.