← Green With Envy: A Boston Celtics Podcast
Green With Envy: A Boston Celtics Podcast
Anfernee Simons Goes ANFERNO MODE + Why The Celtics Shouldn't Trade for Jaren Jackson Jr.
00:49:08
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- [00:00]
Walmart Wellness Announcer
Honey, do not make plans. Saturday, January 24th, okay?
- [00:04]
Mike Gorman
Why?
- [00:04]
Walmart Wellness Promoter
What's happening?
- [00:05]
Walmart Wellness Announcer
The Walmart wellness event. Flu shots, health screenings, free samples from those brands you like.
- [00:09]
Walmart Wellness Promoter
All that at Walmart.
- [00:10]
Walmart Wellness Announcer
We can just walk right in, no appointment needed. Who knew we could cover our health and wellness needs at Walmart?
- [00:15]
Walmart Wellness Promoter
Check the calendar. Saturday, January 24th, Walmart wellness event.
- [00:19]
Walmart Wellness Announcer
You knew?
- [00:20]
Walmart Wellness Promoter
I knew. Check in on your health at the same place you already shop. Visit Walmart, Saturday, January 24th for our semi annual wellness event, flu shots. Subject to availability and applicable state law, age restrictions apply. Free samples while supplies last year, new.
- [00:31]
McDonald's Advertiser
Year, same extra value meals at McDonald's. So now get two snack wraps plus fries and a medium soft drink for.
- [00:39]
Just $8 for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California. And for delivery.
- [00:45]
Mike Gorman
This is Mike Gorman and you're listening.
- [00:47]
Will
To Green with Envy with Will and Greg. All right, everybody. Celtics avoid a three game losing streak with a 119, 114 win on the road against the Miami Heat thanks to the inferno. Been trying to tell y', all, but we're gonna get into that today. We're talking everything about the Celtics heat and what was the game that started? Lackluster, ended very electric. We're gonna get into it. Plus, it's trade season. A lot of rumors out there. So we're gonna break down some of the juiciest ones that the Celtics are involved in here. We got all that more coming up next for you here. This is the Green with Envy live post game. You guys know the deal.
- [01:23]
Mike Gorman
Let's lock it.
- [01:44]
Will
What up, what up, what up? Welcome into another edition of Green with Envy. A green with Envy post game live stealth beat the Heat 119 to 114. As always, this is what will. We're checking in. How you doing? How you living? Joining me as he does each and every time, my best friend, co host and the coach of our podcast, the one and only Greg Menegas. Greg, we rocking the Beanie Brothers look tonight. 119, 114. I missed a hand up here just for the audience. We always like authenticity. We'll be transparent. Daughter was a little bit sick today. We got her to sleep. Took took a little bit longer than usual. Didn't. Didn't get to watch the first half. So I tuned in for the second half here. But Greg, a game that seemingly I watched a little bit on, you know, out of the side of my eye here during the first half that was. Didn't really have a lot of energy. What an electric ending. And my God, do we gotta talk about Anthony Simons?
- [02:39]
Mike Gorman
Anthony Simons just did everything you could hope for as a Celtics fan. One he proves that he belongs on this team, right? So if you decide to keep Anthony Simons as we head into trade season, you have a real piece of a six man of the year candidate. A guy that can score 39 points and carry your team on a night when nobody else had it. Secondly, if you do trade him, you just raised his trade value immensely with a game like this and continuing to believe in him, coming off the bench, getting him to buy into the system. The defense that this guy's playing, the block shot that he had where he. I think it was on Norm Powell where he came back into the play and blocked them at the rim. There was other, other plays defensively where he's just like Johnny on the spot, getting rebounds, getting loose balls. Anthony Simons is starting to endear himself to not only you and I, but to entire Boston Celtics nation and potentially NBA trade suitors around the league.
- [03:38]
Will
Yeah. Well, we'll talk more about what it does for that potential value when we get to the second half of this podcast. Because that did cross my mind as well as we're watching this and even Drew Carter touching it at the very end of the broadcast. Technically, actually, I know the player talking about great. They technically didn't give him a block on that. And as I was watching, I was. It was a very emphatic, energetic, you know, slap on the backboard. It was an unbelievable contest. It's worth a block, right? May not say it in the, in the, in the stat sheet, but that's worth a block. And I think the part that you touched on that, you know, really jumps out to me. There's two things with the San Fran Simons game that jump out to me. One is the defense, because like you said, he was making plays. Not just. We've been saying all season, like he hasn't been great on defense, but we've given him. We have given him his props for just giving effort. Right. Like he's been working his ass off. And I think we've been pretty fair about like acknowledging that just hasn't just isn't always great. Tonight there was actual impact to it, right? Like that block or non block, whatever it was, was at a huge point in the game where the cell where he was doing it on both ends. Like to your point, he had a couple. He had a steal, but it felt like there's a couple deflections in there. Got Some loose balls. Like he was really making an impact defensively and that's something we haven't necessarily seen from Anthony Simon. So this was a two way game from Anthony Sim Simmons and I think the biggest thing for me, Greg watching him in this game. So he goes 7 of 16 from 3. You tell me he has a 39 point game. I feel like Anthony Simons probably 90 of the games this year he's maxed out around two two pointers per game. Just not a lot of twos coming from Anthony Simons. It's like a desperation long two or. He's really good at that. Like crazy hard, crazy difficult running to the side, almost like a floater. But he's kind of fading away. I don't even know what to call it, but it's really difficult. He does make that. But tonight I think he really had a mixed bag. Like he was in his bag quite literally with all the moves that he have. And you just. And I saw a different level of confidence that I don't think we've seen Even in some of the other Anferno runs. Shout out to Drew Carter. Great, great. Anferno is, is phenomenal nickname. Even in some of the other Infernos that we've seen. I think there was a different level of confidence and a different level of variation to the, to the Inferno in this one.
- [05:55]
Mike Gorman
Yeah, you know, I think it started a little bit more off the ball, you know, as the Celtics continue to try and look for him because he's such a knockdown shooter. Like I, I've said this in a couple text threads that we're a part of. Like he's the guy that I want to have like the wide open shot. I want the ball in his hands. Like when he's shooting an open three, I think it's going in and the rest of the team is starting to like recognize that as well. As I mentioned on a couple pods ago, Jalen's always looking for him, is willing to defer to him and he's not really willing to defer to a lot of other guys on the team.
- [06:27]
Will
But you saw that the inside game today. Very, very noticeable when Jay, when Anthony came looking for the ball, Jay, I think, I think Jalen was surprised for a second. He's like, oh no, wait, no, you're cooking. Yeah, here, here, here. You take the ball.
- [06:37]
Mike Gorman
Yeah, yeah.
- [06:38]
Will
Kind of faded off to the wing.
- [06:40]
Mike Gorman
Right. But to your point about him being a three level scorer, not only was it three levels, but it was also in the half court and in Transition and semi position, right? So the, the different levels that he's scoring at, but also the different opportunities that he's taking to get those buckets and that little, like, sidestep Euro step left to right with the little righty lay. I think he had four layups tonight. Like, everything that he's doing on the court is what we hoped we were getting. When we got Anthony Simons in the offseason, we were like, oh, he might be pound for pounds, the best scorer on the team. And then in the preseason, we were like, wait a minute. He can't even dribble. Over the course of the year, he's figured out a way to deal with a little bit more ball pressure. The Celtics have not put him in as many positions to have to bring the ball up against full court pressure. It's not his strong suit. So much of what he does is off the hang dribble and off the threat of the shot, right? That's what gets him space.
- [07:42]
Will
And.
- [07:42]
Mike Gorman
And when you go in 94ft, you don't have the threat of the shot, right? So you can just play him for the dribble. And his hand is a little loose. When it goes to his left hand, it's a little loose. But when he's in that, when he's in the half court and the moment he's within shooting range, which is right over half court for him, he is a problem. And the Celtics are figuring out how to utilize him, and Joe Missoula is finally allowing him to play his game. But Simons had to earn it because he had to gain Missoula's trust on the defensive side of the ball, and that's what we saw tonight.
- [08:12]
Will
Yeah, I like what you're talking about with him in semi transition, right. Because I think you just give him a lane and he's very capable of getting downhill and making something happen. Like, that's something that knows. You just give. He just. He's not great at necessarily just straight up man to man getting by guys, although he did do that a couple times. He had hero on skates on one of the moves tonight. So he can do it, but it's not necessarily probably his strongest point. But if you give him just a little, he doesn't need much. Give him a little bit of an opening to get downhill. He can make it happen with whether it's stopping for a floater. It's getting into a step back. It's that Euro step that you talked about. And, you know, I. I think you hit the biggest point for me, as I was watching this game, just me personally is I was like, okay, this is more along the lines, of course this is to the like a highest level of what we envision could be with Anthony Simons or what we were getting with Anthony Simons, but it was okay, cool. Jalen's 9 of 24 with five turnovers, you know, and Jalen had some moments where he got himself kind of corrected, you know, in this game, but it was up and down. Peyton Pritchard was a non factor in this game. Derrick White wasn't much of a factor. And really going into the season, we kind of expected the books on most nights to be. Jalen Brown is your leading scorer. Anthony Simons is your second leading scorer. That, that was what we thought going into the season and we were like, yeah, you know, probably 15, 20 of the time, Simons will be the leading scorer and JB will be second. This is very rare that we get Anthony Simons here as the leading scorer. So this is a night where it's like, okay, cool. Like Derek and Peyton are like, they're scorers. But Anthony Simons has been labeled a scorer for multiple years scoring 20 plus points. He's gonna be the number two scorer behind Jalen and at times be that number one. And tonight was, was the night that I think, despite other moments, this was the night that I think a lot of people, myself included, have been waiting for.
- [10:05]
Mike Gorman
Yeah. And I'm sure we're going to hear a lot of the start Simon's crowd come out after this game. Right. He's like pound for pound is just a better scorer than Payton Pritchard. Right. He's one of the most talented scorers in the entire league. Pritchard, I think has done enough to continue to deserve the starting spot on this team. And Anthony Simons is doing so well off the bench and is going to be a front runner for sixth man of the year. And when Jason Tatum inevitably comes back, you're going to want Simons to play with that second unit alongside Tatum, to be that release foul for Jason Tatum. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't, you know, give in to those urges to start Anthony Simons based off of the, the surge that we've seen out of him recently continue to allow him to do his thing off the bench. Don't now relegate Pritchard to the bench and completely like lose his confidence because he's done well this season. Tonight he was a non factor, as you said, but he's going to have those games where he can't get his shot off because he's a little undersized. Right. But I think it's good to have a guy like Simons who can take stock of the game and give the game what it needs. Right. Coming in off the bench, I think that. And they talked about a little bit on the broadcast tonight, like, it's important to have a guy who's talented enough to say, oh, I can lay back, or, oh, I need to insert myself. Peyton Pritchard doesn't have that talent level. He can't come off the bench and say, oh, I need to go takeover mode. But he can find his rhythm throughout a game and find his spots. Right. So I do think it makes a lot more sense to keep Simons off the bench just to kind of preempt that conversation. Yeah.
- [11:39]
Will
And I think the nights that you need it, like tonight where he plays, you know, a little over 34 minutes. You got it. And then the nights where, to your point, it's a little bit more passive. He's playing 23 minutes and you're more like, hey, you're going to get six open threes. We need you to knock down four of them. Right. And that's more of his role than it is the takeover guy. Like, I, I think that is kind of perfect, especially when you look ahead at if Tatum comes back. Like, it even makes even more sense, I think, to that. To that point. And you've said all, all season long, like, I really want to see Simons play with Tatum. And I think that's a really interesting combo. So this is the Anthony Simons game. There's no doubt about it. Celtics downing down as much as 19 early. It's funny, Greg, I was, as I mentioned before, I didn't get a chance to watch most of the. The first half I used. Have you ever seen on league pass they have like those catch up with key plays? Yeah, I've never used that before. I was like, you know what, it's just halftime. Second half, it just starts like, you know, I'm not gonna be able to watch. Let me at least catch up with these, see what these key plays are. First half was so bad for the Celtics. They gave me 12 highlights. 10 of them were for the Miami Heat. So. So summing up the first half, they.
- [12:48]
Mike Gorman
They came out just completely flat. Jalen was awful in the first half. Derrick White wasn't any better. Peyton Pritchard was a no show. Kada was getting cooked off the dribble. Bam. Just came out and destroy in the first quarter and it was one of those games like, Jalen hasn't been good since the Clippers game, right? He's been. I think he might be dealing with a little bit of, of a knee thing or maybe it's just fatigue from carrying the team, like on his back the entire season, but he doesn't have the same pop that he had.
- [13:18]
Will
And I did notice, I say this is not the most Jalen thing ever, though. Like, he f, like been fighting for the proper recognition for so long, right? Like always feeling like he's never getting his flowers right after that 50 point game, literally every national local, every podcast was just, how good is Jalen Brown? Jalen Brown, the mvp. Jalen Brown, no doubt, first team. Like, maybe he's like the. The. Is he better than Jason Tatum? Crowd was. Was back at it again. And since then it's. It's kind of been a little pumpkinish. Of course, we're not going to jump there after, you know, four games since then, but the turnovers are up. Some of the decisions are more questionable. So maybe it's an injury, I don't know. But it's the most Jalen Brown thing ever.
- [14:01]
Mike Gorman
But I think there's a reason why they sat him the other night, right, against the Pacers. It's like he's, he's done so much for this team. You need to find games for him to sit. The Pacers play such a physical style. It's so up and down. That would have been really taxing on his body. And you saw the after effects of Peyton Pritchard and Derrick White tonight having to carry the load without Jaylen Brown against the Pacers. Now in this game tonight, they have nothing, right? Offensively, they had nothing. Derrick White made the Derek White plays in the fourth quarter, but like, there was one point where Simons is cooking. Derrick White gets an open three off of like a, A miscommunication. But the Heat defense, and he shoots it and he bricks it, right? And I texted Phil as we're texting to the game and I was like, yo, D, White needs to chill out. Like, this is not your game, bro. This is not your moment. Don't around right now. Just get the ball to Simons. Keep it simple. They have two defensive liabilities on the court in Hero and the. The Lithuanian kid.
- [14:59]
Will
So like his name.
- [15:01]
Mike Gorman
But yeah, whatever his name is, just go at them like they, they had. They did such a good job of bringing Sam Houser into the action, where he would come up from. From the baseline, come up right through the middle and set that second screen so that you would force one of the weaker defenders onto Simons. And then they put Wiggins on Simons and they decided to do the same thing with Jaylen Brown. They're like, okay, like, we don't need to mess around. Wiggins is too handsy. Simons has a loose handle. Let's get him out of the play. Jaylen Brown, now you can cook against Tyler Herro. And that's what we saw to close the game.
- [15:33]
Walmart Wellness Announcer
Honey, do not make plans. Saturday, January 24th. Okay?
- [15:37]
Mike Gorman
Why?
- [15:37]
Walmart Wellness Promoter
What's happening?
- [15:38]
Walmart Wellness Announcer
The Walmart wellness event. Flu shots, health screenings, free samples from those brands you like.
- [15:42]
Walmart Wellness Promoter
All that at Walmart.
- [15:43]
Walmart Wellness Announcer
We can just walk right in, no appointment needed. Who knew we could cover our health and wellness needs at Walmart?
- [15:48]
Walmart Wellness Promoter
Check the calendar. Saturday, January 24th.
- [15:51]
Walmart Wellness Announcer
Walmart wellness event. You knew.
- [15:53]
Walmart Wellness Promoter
I knew. Check in on your health at the same place you already shop. Visit Walmart Saturday, January 24th for our semi annual wellness event flu shot. Subject to availability and applicable state law. Age restrictions apply. Free samples.
- [16:03]
McDonald's Advertiser
While supplies last new year, same extra value meals at McDonald's. So now get two snack wraps plus fries and a medium soft drink for.
- [16:12]
Just $8 for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California. And for delivery free.
- [16:21]
Will
Yeah, this is a really nice win given just, you know, obviously avoiding a three game losing streak. The way that it started, it felt like it was just gonna be one of those nights, right? And you needed the spark and of course, Anthony Simons provided it. But I think another guy that we need to shout out here, I think Luca Garza needs a shout out. Like, Luca Garza has been playing really, really well. Good.
- [16:42]
Mike Gorman
He's good. He's good. And the fact that, you know, they mentioned it on the, on the broadcast a couple times to Caitlin Clark referencing that Luca Garza can. And she knew he could shoot back at Iowa. Right? I can't believe he's shooting over 50% from 3 this year. It's pretty wild. It's blowing my mind, man. And if he can shoot above 45% from three, which is a crazy number, but even above 40% from three on those pick and pop, above the break, top of the key threes, like he's now a real NBA player. I've been texting with people all year, people asking me, like, what do you think Luca Garza is? And I've said this on the pod, like, I don't think he's ever going to have a meaningful playoff moment. And I think I'm just wrong. I think like you were wrong on Anthony Simons, like after the first couple months and you're coming around on Anthony Simons and how could you not like it's the same thing for me. How could I not come around on Luca Garza? I do think there were moments tonight where I would have liked to have seen the Celtics throw out Xavier Tillman or throw out Amari Williams just because Garza was getting cooked on defense, Kato was getting cooked on defense just for something else out there. Or go small, right, with Jalen at the five with Ugo, Jordan, Walsh, Simonson, White. Like maybe we'll see that lineup up there. But they ended up going small with Garza at the 5, Hauser, Brown, White and Simons. That lineup was great, man. The offensive versatility of that team is just crazy.
- [18:07]
Will
Yeah. And I think Gar is on the offensive boards, man, like even, you know, he. I think he got credit for looking at it right here. I think three tonight, there's several more where he's either just keeping the possession alive. He's. It's a ball that's going out of bounds off Miami because of his positioning. Like it. It's just like that number doesn't do it justice to like his. To what he does on the offensive board to give the Celtics more possessions to. You know, Joe's biggest thing is right, like we need to win the. The shot battle. Right. Celtics win tonight, 9187. If you're just looking at straight up field goal attempts that you get up. And Luca Garza is so key to that, especially since he's got in the rotation. Like he was like. That's the thing you gotta remember is flashback. What maybe two, two and a half weeks ago, he was straight up out of the rotation. We weren't seeing Luca Garza at all.
- [18:54]
Mike Gorman
Right before west coast trip.
- [18:57]
Will
Yeah. And since he's come back, he's done nothing but make an impact at the be going into the season. Like from. From the preseason. I thought, you know, he'd be fine as a regular season guy. He's like an 82 game guy. I think of him as, you know, a back end, you know, number five starter. If you're talking baseball or maybe like the long relief guy that just eats innings for you, you know. And he's starting to be a little bit more than that. Like certainly John Little.
- [19:23]
Mike Gorman
John Burkety.
- [19:25]
Will
Yeah. Something to that extent. Like you're gonna throw him out there every five days and you know, hey. Oh, Aaron silly That's a good pull. A little Jeff Su, Bonnie, maybe, you know, we're getting somewhere. Yeah, we're getting, we're getting a buck 80 out of him this season. Right. We're getting 180 innings, like, and he's probably going to have a, a 4, 5 ERA. Like, he's not the ace, but he's gonna get us through and he's gonna have some moments. And Luke is certainly that. You know, we'll see if we still think, like, can he be a true rotation guy? Playoffs, I think that's still a question, but I think it's a lot more. It's something that you're getting closer to being okay with based on his play. Right. So, Luca Garza, you definitely deserve, you know, a shout out for this game. And looking at this box score, Greg, it is really tough to imagine a game where you're gonna get 2 of 11 from Pritchard and White and you're gonna be like, oh, yeah, Celtics can win a game like that. And they, they just found a way. You know, I think the defense in that second half was a big part of it. Right. Just as far as bringing some, some more energy. And we pointed out Simons already. You know, I think obviously, you know, Ugo was a little bit of that too. Jordan Walsh, a little bit of that too. Like, there's different guys that you can, you can point to, but overall, I think this is just a really win. Do you have anything else that you want to hit on? On the game itself?
- [20:46]
Mike Gorman
Yeah. And I think that you. The, the defense in the first quarter, the bench came in and they really did a good job of picking up the starters because I think the Celtics were down 27 to 8 or 27 to 9 early in the game. And Joe was like, all right, I need my energy guys. And the energy guys did a really good job of bringing the Celtics back where at the end of the first quarter, I think it was just a 10 point game. It was right around that mark. Maybe it was 11, but the game was hanging on the balance, right where he's like, I, we just might get blown out by 50 tonight.
- [21:17]
Will
And 19 was the largest lead in.
- [21:19]
Mike Gorman
That first quarter, which is a crazy number, right? Exactly. Yeah. 28 to 9 or whatever it was, right. And the bench comes in. Jordan Walsh makes some plays, Ugo makes some plays, Anthony Simons gets hot, and all of a sudden it's like, oh, we have a game now. And for a moment I was like, like, do I go downstairs? Because I'm at. I'M at Danielle's uncle's house. I'll shout out Uncle Donald. And I'm like, they're watching a TV show, they're watching a movie. Do I just like, go put the game away? We'll talk about trade rumors and whatever and I can fake it till I make it on a game where you get blown out. And I was like, you know what? I'm gonna hang in there. And the Celtics hang in there with me. And then Anthony Simons, full takeover mode this entire game. And it was the first time that Anthony Simons had two great halves. Right. And we've, we've been talking about this, how he would have a moment where he would carry the team for a quarter. You think of that Orlando game earlier in the year where he had like 20 points in a quarter and then all of a sudden he does nothing in the second half. Partially to do with Jalen Suggs and Anthony Black being like, nah, he ain't touching the ball anymore.
- [22:22]
Will
Right.
- [22:22]
Mike Gorman
But Anthony Black didn't do anything. He has been good. He has been good. Magic, not so much. Anthony Black, yes. But every time inside a great two halves, great 48 minutes of action tonight, and it's everything that the Celtics needed. So we didn't go on our first three game losing streak since that Owen three start.
- [22:40]
Will
Yeah. And I feel like a loss tonight. Two things. One, I was thinking about this when I. When it felt like this was going to be a loss. I think Miami might be the team I hate losing to the most. I hate losing to Miami.
- [22:53]
Mike Gorman
They suck, dude.
- [22:56]
Will
That's. It's just. Yeah, there's. It's like them, the Lakers and the Sixers, some. Those are the top three. I'd have to really think about what order. But I hate losing to those three teams. So that's one. And then two. This did feel like a little bit of a. Of a teetering point potentially for like raising some red flags. Like, all right, like, we lost to Denver without Jokic and wasn't a great Jalen Brown game. You know, spurs game, Indiana game. We're complaining about the refs. Indiana is one of the worst teams in the league. Of course, no Jalen Brown. But, you know, like, it felt like this was a game that if the Celtics, especially the way. Not even just the result, but the way that it had started, it would have been like, all right, we hyped the Celtics up for two weeks. Maybe we were all wrong. Like, it felt like that was potentially coming. And now you've kind of settled that.
- [23:48]
Mike Gorman
Yeah, and you know who else I think needs some flowers tonight is Sam Houser. I don't have the block. The box score up. What. Can you read me his. His SAT line tonight?
- [23:55]
Will
Yeah, Sam played third. Yeah, Sam was actually really good. You're right. We didn't need to give Sam a little bit of shout out here. He played 30 minutes, closed the game out, 6 of 11 from the field, 3 of 8 from 3. Finished with 17 points, 3 rebounds, 3 assists, and a steal. Yeah, this is a really good game for Sam. And actually, Sam was making some good decisions late. Just, like, not forced. Sam does really good about, like, not forcing it, just making the smart play. And there was even one time where you mentioned, like, Derek White was just kind of in a different world tonight at certain points where I was where Sam had the ball and I was like. And Derek just was like, come on. Like, just like we're, like, running down the park. Come on. I was like, derek, get the ball, dude. You're the point guard. Go get the ball. And like, get it across half court. But, yeah, shout out to Sam. Sam was good in this game as well.
- [24:37]
Mike Gorman
Defensively, I thought he was great. And I think this is a. A really good, natural transition point to the trade rumors. Because when you think about Anthony Simons and his $25 million contract, Sam Houser, I think he's a little over 10, like, right. 11 or 12 million. Those are the two guys. When you think about needing to go out and get somebody that of real value, those are the contracts that you have to piece together in order to get someone near that $40 million range. So it's just really interesting tonight in this game. Those are the two guys that I felt stood out more than anybody else on the floor.
- [25:12]
Will
Yeah, great transition. So let's get into it here. So it is NBA trade rumor season. January 15th. We're recording this, obviously, right after the game. It is January 15th. Basically everybody in the NBA is available to be traded. That's why you're seeing so many rumors that are popping up left and right. Celtics, not immune to the Celtics. Especially on this one that we're going to talk about to lead with here, I found very surprising. I think it was earlier this week that it came up that Jaren Jackson Jr. Is someone that the Celtics have been whispering about. If you're watching here on YouTube or on Twitter live, you can see Greg giving two authoritative thumbs down. Listen to this.
- [25:53]
Mike Gorman
I. I want to find somewhere to purchase more thumbs so that I can give it more thumbs down. Like, that's that's how out I am on this.
- [26:01]
Will
Yeah, it's an interesting idea. And so Jaren Jackson Jr. Of course the, the Grizzlies are kind of in this like in between stage of. Are they going to sell off or what are they going to do? So let's talk about it, Greg, because I think you and I probably have very similar opinions just based off what you texted me. Neither of us are really on board. Aaron Jackson trade. Now you mentioned kind of the key piece to it, right? He makes 35 million right now. So this is why it's the perfect transition. Because if you're making a trade, Simons and Hauser are the salaries you have to use to be able to get there. You can't do it with Simons. And then even if you tried to piece it together like middle of the season right now, it's way too hard. Too many guys you got to cut and move around. It's just not a realistic way to do it. Even if you were like, well wait a minute, we can add Boucher Tillman, you know, whoever else end of the bench, you know that we can, we can piece it together like it's, that's not really how it's going to work. If they were to make a Jaren Jackson trade, no doubt the salaries are going to be those two. Then it comes down to one of the young wings draft picks. You kind of figure it out from there. But let's just start with Jaren Jackson Jr. The player. Greg, I just don't see this. I'm not a fan. He's a guy where. Let me ask you this, Greg. He's been defensive player of the year, been a two time all star. How many times in his career you think he's averaged over seven rebounds?
- [27:21]
Mike Gorman
I'm gonna go one.
- [27:23]
Will
You lose, my friend. The answer is zero. Zero times. Has this man who's a power forward, center, 6 10, 6 11, 7ft, defensive player of the year. Yes, he is a, he is a very good rim protector. I gotta give him. He's not a bad player. But to not be able to average over seven rebounds. All I think about with Jaren Jackson was that one Phoebe. I've gotten some of the fever years mixed up, up. But when seemingly every game he had two rebounds and it was like, dude, are you like. I just, I can't stand how little he rebounds. It's like it's, it's one of the things that annoys me so much about him. There's other things I don't love. But that's one of the biggest reasons I just don't want Jared Jackson.
- [28:02]
Mike Gorman
Yeah, the, the player himself is, is okay. Right. It's just when you think about what the team would be after this trade, he goes from making $35 million a year this year into his contract extension where he's making close to $50 million a year. I think the average annual value is around 50 million. So you're, you have three guys now.
- [28:23]
Will
For four years, by the way, there hasn't started yet. There's four years on that deal.
- [28:27]
Mike Gorman
Exactly. So you have Tatum, you have Brown, you have Jaren Jackson Jr. And Derrick White. Like, that's a really nice four, but you have almost no flexibility for anybody else on your roster. And you're definitely going to be going into the second apron again. Right? So, like all the work that the Celtics have to get themselves in a good cap space just to get a guy like Jaren Jackson Jr. Who to me doesn't move the needle in terms of making them a championship contender, I, I just don't see it. If it was Jaren Jackson Jr. And he was only making 35 million and it didn't go up to 50, I think I'd be on board with it. It's just, you see around the league, all these guys that are getting paid these, these max contracts that aren't worth it. Now, a lot of them are the smaller guard types, right? The Anthony Simons types, Youngs of the world, the John Morant of the world, the Bradley Beals of the world. Like all those guys that are getting overpaid. At least with Jaren Jackson Jr. You're getting a big man, right, who, who is 26 years old, entering into his prime, can shoot the three, as you said, former defensive player of the year and seemingly makes a lot of sense roster wise, but he doesn't stay on the floor, right. He gets hurt a lot. And he also just doesn't stay on the floor because he fouls a lot. So to me, oh, I forgot about.
- [29:46]
Will
How much he fouls. I forgot. Oh my God, that, that irritates me so much. And the thing is, like with his three point shot, it's incredibly streaky, so he's technically a stretch five. Here's his three point marks over the last five years. 36, 37, 32, 35, 32. Like it's, it's. Yeah, it's theoretically there, the threat of it, but it's also not, not entirely reliable. And it's. Yeah, it's, it's, it's not pretty to look at. And as you mentioned before, like, whether this is a short term view on this trade for just this year or even long term when you factor in Simons and Hauser and who knows if Simons will be back, but Hauser has a really sweet deal that's, you know, gonna be here for a couple of years. Those are two dead eye knockdown. Write it off at whatever year we're playing, they're shooting 40% set. Right? Don't even, don't even worry about it. And then you're bringing in Darren Jackson as a kind of stretch five. Like, that's, that's just not gonna do it for me and his contract so bad. Greg, I was thinking about this. I was like, all right, what if, just hypothetically, all we had to give up was like, if there was. And we do have some trade exceptions, none large enough to fit him, but like, say we had a trade exception large enough to fit Jaren Jackson and all we gave up was like two protected first and some seconds, like, just like straight up, just draft picks. Would I still say yeah? Would I say yes or no to this trade? I think I would still say no. The contract's that bad? Like, I, like, I still.
- [31:15]
Mike Gorman
It's a bad contract.
- [31:17]
Will
I can't imagine four years at over 205 million. And you nailed the point of, like, there's just no maneuverability despite that core four. And you could throw Pritchard in there because he's on three more years of a really sweet deal. It's a nice five. Five. That's a really nice five. But. And I can hear people saying this now that if there are people out there that want to do this, the counter is, well, then you can always just flip them later. I'm like, well, if his value now is so low that we're like talking ourselves into it at 35 million, at 50 million with more years left, like, it's. He's. You're not going to be able to flip him. So in my mind, if the Celtics, which Brad's too smart. I just can't see him making this trade. I think if you make a move for Jaren Jackson, you are laying the groundwork for a future Derrick White and or Jalen Brown trade. That. That's what that move does for me. Because then that's how you're going to get value. Exactly. It's gross. It's gross. So, yeah, so that's a. That was a rumor that really caught me off guard that I've had a hard time. I've tried to. To play devil's advocate to myself, and I think you and I, we can't do it. I don't. I don't think it can be done with that rumor. And I'm glad it's out there. Yeah, and I'm glad it's out there because usually whatever is out there vocally is probably not actually what's going to happen because Brad operates in the shadows. So that's probably a good thing for us that that's out there. Now let's talk about another.
- [32:39]
Mike Gorman
Can I ask you a question real quick, though? Well, I'm just interested in. In how you see these players. What if the same deal was available for Evan Mobley?
- [32:51]
Will
The. So, like which deal? The deal for the. With Simon's Hauser and you know, one of the young wings and some picks or something. I mean that. Yeah, to me that's totally different. I would 100 do that as part of. That's Evan Mobley's. You know, he's still 22, I think.
- [33:06]
Mike Gorman
Right.
- [33:06]
Will
And even though, you know, I think we might talk about this pretty recently, like he's. He's been a little disappointing this year. Evan Moby still has. You've seen it. You just haven't seen it consistently enough. And I. This is where I'd kind of bank on. Like I've got my issues at times with. With I don't love like Joe in certain situations. Joe getting the most out of a guy to like turn on full time. Like kind of like we saw with Simon's confidence and it kind of bit. This is. This relationship is built over time. The relationship he built with Pritchard over time. The way that you've seen Kada grow like Mobley, who's more talented than all those guys. Like, I think think you see a little nasty streak in Mobley every once in a while. It just. It's just not there enough for him with the level of talent. And so I would bank on being able to bring that out of him. And I just think he's more talented than Jaren Jackson. So I would. I would do for sure this trade for Mobley, but not Jaren Jackson.
- [33:59]
Mike Gorman
Yeah. And like the. The Cavs would never do that deal. I was just interested to see how you. How you thought of Mobley versus how you thought of Jackson.
- [34:06]
Will
Yeah, Yeah. I have Mobley slightly higher than. Than Jaren Jackson. Part of that's age as well too. About five years younger. But another rumor that's actually, you know, a nice little nostalgia twist that did come out recently is that the Celtics might have interest in our guy old friend, Rob Williams, AKA Lob Williams. Rob Wearing. Lob. One of the greatest moments in this podcast history and I gotta get your opinion here. What would you think about a Robert Williams reunion to the Celtics?
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Mike Gorman
Why?
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- [35:27]
Mike Gorman
So how do we get that deal done contract wise? What have you seen out there?
- [35:31]
Will
So I haven't seen anything about any, any structure. It's just me kind of looking at it myself. There's, there's, there's kind of two different paths to it, right? So we do have a traded player exception that he would fit into. So if you go that route, you could. And again, this would depend what Portland is looking to get back. Like, but if they're just looking to dump him and just get like a couple of picks because they're like, listen, we want to, we want. Clinging to play. We want young Hanson, the, the big, the big Chinese kid. We want him to play like, you know, we're just, whatever we're, we're good on, we'll just take whatever we can get. Like, that's the path for me that makes the most sense. Otherwise, he makes 13 million. Sam Houser's the answer. And unless you think you're super close, you know, so this is, for me, this becomes, you know, Tatum's coming back. And you really think that the east is this bad and it's this open that you're willing to gamble on, you know, three months of Robert Williams health, then maybe you do it. But I can't imagine that trading, you know, three years of Sam Houser on his contract for one half season of, of Rob is probably going to be worth it. Like, it doesn't seem like, like a good enough gamble.
- [36:43]
Mike Gorman
Yeah, I think it has to be the traded player exception there and like maybe there's, there's a, another piece that gets moved so we get a little bit more Sally relief. That's not Sam Houser. But you know, I'd love to see Rob back in Boston. It stinks that his career hasn't turned into anything since leaving Boston because of the injuries. And I think he would, I think he would welcome it. He loved his time here in Boston. Boston loves him as a player and as a person. So I would be open to it. I wouldn't want him to start over Keita, just because I like what I've seen out of Keda. And you don't want to put in an injury prone player into the starting lineup because you might just have to take him right back out. And now Kate is head is all messed up from having gotten moved to the bench and all that, right? Yeah. So if he's coming in there and he's just playing eight to 12 minutes a game, sign me up. I think that's all you need out of Robert Williams to fill in like the moments tonight where Kada didn't have it. Luca Garza, although he, he played well enough, there were moments where I was like, we just need something else out there on the court. I think that something else could be Robert Williams and that's a pretty good something else.
- [37:50]
Will
Well, especially defensively. Right. Because that's where you can kind of balance it out. But let me ask you this, Greg. He's. He's been in Portland now 2 1/2 years. How many games overall do you think he's played in in two and a half years?
- [38:01]
Mike Gorman
Well, he's been pretty available this year.
- [38:03]
Will
Yeah.
- [38:05]
Mike Gorman
So I'm gonna go 40.
- [38:10]
Will
Not a bad guess. 54. Yeah, it's been 54 games over tonight. And to the point of what makes it interesting this year is he's played the majority of those 54 games have come this year. He's played 28. He's been in 28 games this year playing right around 16 minutes, six points. I mean, pretty impressively. You know, he's got six rebounds in about a block and a half. Only playing 16 minutes, like that's pretty, like that's pretty solid, you know, return on your investment. So I think, yeah, if they go the traded player exception, it's really the only way that makes sense. I just don't think, you know, even with Tatum coming back, you can't expect him to be 100. Like it doesn't make sense to go all in on a one year gamble and then, you know, he's, he's an unrestricted free agent. I mean, maybe you bring him back, but you might be able to do that anyways even if you don't trade for him. You know, I mean, like maybe that's like a cheap signing in the off season. So I think it's an interesting rumor. It's fun to think about. We love Rob, Rob loves Boston. Like it would be a fun night the night he comes back. It would be electric, right? Like the crowd would go nuts. So that would be a fun moment. But end of the day, unless that traded player exception plays a role, I don't really see that. The other rumors are kind of the guys we've already talked about. So I don't need to go too deep into it. It's the Zubach, it's the Daniel Gaffer day, Ron Sharp. The thing I did want to bring up with specifically Zubac, because this is where I think it's a very big difference between him and Jaren Jackson is they both have, have contracts that go beyond this year. We mentioned how atrocious Jared Jackson's contract is. Zubatz is the exact opposite of that. Right. Where he's got this year, next year at 19 million, following year at 20 million. So essentially 40 million for the next two years, that's a really, really good deal. And it's probably one of the reasons why it would be a little surprising even though as the Clippers are trying to claw back into the, to the playing.
- [40:02]
Mike Gorman
Yeah, they're right there. They're, they're the 11. They're number 11 right now. I think they're like one game out. They're, they're eight and two in their last 10 games. So I think we've kind of missed the boat on Zubot. I think they're, the Clippers are going to try and keep the team together so that they don't have their pick, go to the Thunder and it be a top five pick.
- [40:19]
Will
So I think that's the case too, which is why I want to ask. And this is where I think as we talked about Anthony Simon's value when he has a night like this. Now, let's say the Clippers between now and the, in the trade deadline, going a little bit more of a skid, he becomes more valuable and maybe that's someone they like because I, I think he's gonna probably price himself out of coming back to Boston if he continues to play like this, like, I don't think it's going to be feasible to bring him back at a number that he's going to get just bigger numbers elsewhere. Maybe the Clippers want to pay that and so they want to get him in, get his Bird rights, yada yada. So this is the question that I'll, you know, and this would be dependent on the Clippers reverting back to their early season form and losing some more games. How aggressive would you get trying to get Zubac knowing that, you know, he's making 18 million? Theoretically you could do this without Simons. It's not going to happen without Simons, I don't think so. It's probably Zubac and whoever they piece together for, you know, 6 million, whatever, it's Simons. And then how much draft capital and which of the wings would you or would you not be willing to part with is my question. Question.
- [41:21]
Mike Gorman
I'm not trading Hugo. Like there's, you're just.
- [41:24]
Will
Okay, that's the biggest part.
- [41:26]
Mike Gorman
Yeah, he has too much potential, man. Like his, his ability to impact games at 19 years old and have the physical frame that he does with the, the biggest hands in draft combine history and all that stuff. Like, he, he's the type of guy that I think could be a Celtic for more than a decade and could grow into like a really good player. I see a lot of Denny Advia in his game. I think he could be a better shooter than Denny Advia. He's not as big as Abdia is, but he's 19. There's no reason why he might not grow another inch or two. Right. And if Ugo ends up at six, seven and a half, six, eight, like, that's a really scary player to deal with. So Ugo is where I draw the line on somebody like Zubac. But like the picks, the draft capital and like all the Jordan Walshes, the Baylor Shire, like, yeah, like all those guys, they're expendable. Ugo to me is untouchable right now. Unless it's like what the people who believe Jaren Jackson is like, if there's.
- [42:30]
Will
A guy, an actual player who is the right value for that.
- [42:33]
Mike Gorman
Yeah, yeah, like, like then, then you throw out Ugo. But it's not Jaren Jackson, right? It's not Zuba. Watch. It's someone who, like, I didn't even see coming. I'm like, oh, the Celtics got this player. That would be, that would be where I would include Ugo. But I just love Hugo. Like, don't trade Ugo what are we doing?
- [42:50]
Will
I love Ugo too. I, I definitely wouldn't do it for Jaren Jackson. I would consider it for Zubac, and mostly because of how good that contract is. And I really think in the NBA it's so hard to think of windows beyond two to three years. You know what I mean? Like, things just change so quickly, whether it's injuries, whether it's the landscape of the league, whatever it might be. And if you. Let's, let's just walk down this hypothetical. It's Simons, it's Ugo and whatever. Let's just say two picks that the picks don't really matter for. For this particular conversation, you set yourself up for the next two to three years where you have Pritchard, White, the Jays, Zubac, Kate is at least back for next year. I, I was thinking earlier today, like, I really would love for them to do kind of a Hauser, Pritchard type deal with Cata. Like, hey, you got one more year left, but let's lock you in at like 4 for 32 or 35 or something. Like, let's go do that. Maybe, maybe you do that. So, so you got Keda, you still have Hauser. In this particular scenario, you would probably have Walsh or Shireman, at least, at least one of them. And now I like, that's a pretty good roster for the next two to three years. And my thing is, as much as I like Ugo, the thing is when we're thinking of Tatum coming back not just this year, but for the next couple years as he gets back to being 100%, we, we just pray. We've praised Keda a bunch all season. We just praised Luca Garza filling that void at that center spot we talked about. Maybe Rob in the off season's a nice, like, hey, maybe let's just take a chance he cost 2,3 million. Like it's going to be really hard to find a good center at the right value. And so if you can get Zubash, as much as I like Ugo, I may take a risk on Zubot for that two to three year window. And maybe that bites you in the ass later, potentially, there's no doubt about it. But it's, I think it'd be something you really gotta think about.
- [44:51]
Mike Gorman
You have to think Zubac, in a series against Jokic is going to be able to shut Jokic down or hold his own against Jokers. You got to think that in a series against the Oklahoma City Thunder, he's going to be such a problem playing drop defense, that he has, like, a Wemby, like, effect bothering Shea, right? If he's not that guy, then I don't think you. You do the deal probably overvaluing Ugo, but I love him, man. I just. I just think he has so much potential at 19 years old. Like, think, like, I feel about Ugo the way that I felt about the Jays when they were young. I don't think he has the potential of them, but I don't think that Jalen. Nobody saw Jalen Brown becoming this. Right. I don't think Ugo has, like, the natural ability that those two guys had. But in terms of where he could BE at age 25, I want to see it in Boston. Like, he, like, think about Aaron Neesmith, right? When, like, we loved Aaron Neesmith, we wanted Aaron Neesmith to be in Boston. He wasn't getting the opportunity. But there were, like, these moments. We're like, man, like, I just, like, I don't want to trade Niecemith. I just really like him. I never felt about Neesmith anywhere near what I felt about Ugo. And look what Niecemith has turned out to be.
- [46:07]
Will
Like.
- [46:07]
Mike Gorman
Niece turned out to be, like, really nice player there. I think Ugo has way more potential than a niece Smith, so I. I just want to keep him at.
- [46:14]
Will
Yeah, you know, it's an interesting what if as you were going, because I also thought about the knee Smith comparison for. For Ugo earlier today is. It's really interesting to think about, like, if Neesmith had been given the same opportunity as Ugo to, like, freely develop. Right. Because that was the biggest issue with Nismith is like, we were so good that it was like, yeah, you just got to come in and just do the three and D thing. Don't do any of the other, like, like, mistakes that are gonna eventually help you to become a better player. Whereas, like, Hugo has a little bit more freedom to. To operate. Not that he's, like, handling the ball a ton. You know what I mean? But, like, Ugo doesn't. Ugo doesn't have the same responsibility that was kind of put on on N. Smith because we just desperately needed N. Smith to fit this role, and we couldn't get him in there because he just wasn't ready for it. Right. And he needed to go to Indiana, gonna have some time to be able to fail. And then you saw. I mean, one of the greatest games I've ever watched was that game one of the conference finals last year, and Nick went bananas, hitting, like, six threes and MSG like it was crazy. And so it is interesting to think about what the opportunity. New Smith, if he had a similar scenario to Ugo, what that would have looked like. And it's. Yeah, I do think there are some, some parallels between the two.
- [47:28]
Mike Gorman
Yeah. So I'm not trading New Go, but Zubac is great. I think that you're right about the contract being probably the best value contract for a center in the league. Like a high end center in the league.
- [47:39]
Will
Yeah.
- [47:40]
Mike Gorman
But then you, you think about like Keda making whatever. Is he making 3 million this year?
- [47:45]
Will
It's like 2 million.
- [47:48]
Mike Gorman
Like he probably has the best value contract of any center in the league only making 2 million. And Garza is making around that much too. Right. So the Celtics. Yeah, the Celtics are, are getting the.
- [48:00]
Will
Good 4 million dollar front court.
- [48:03]
Mike Gorman
That's great value for that. For that front court.
- [48:07]
Will
Yeah. So we'll see. I'm sure more rumors are going to come out here again. Today is the day where officially basically everybody in the NBA is available to be traded. So I think obviously this is the time of year where what happens, Even though we're in like the dog days of the NBA season, what happens, you know, between now and the first week of February tells people a lot about what their direction is the rest of the year. So we're gonna see. I, I think we were kind of chatting about this in a group text, Greg. I think someone's making it. I think there's going to be at least one or two like really like head scratching moves, whether it's for Jaren Jackson or Ja or for Levine. Like somebody's making a move that they probably shouldn't make. I mean, I don't think it's going to be the Celtics, but I'm excited to see who it is.
- [48:50]
Mike Gorman
Oh yeah, yeah, there's. I mean, someone's going to trade for Kamenga, right. He just demanded his trade. So I think you'll see.
- [48:57]
Will
I love when guys who get like consistent DMP coaches decisions are like demanding trades. It's great.
- [49:03]
Mike Gorman
It's so fun. Who's the, who's the guy on the Sixers that did that?
- [49:07]
Will
Oh, dude. Who was it that did Cork Mas?
- [49:10]
Mike Gorman
It was Cork Mas. Remember somebody said I look like Cork Maz. Someone was like, oh, you look like Derek White and Cork Mas. No, somebody on the podcast. Some. But some like random person typed in like, oh, you look like Cork Maz and Derek White. I was like, what the. No, but yeah, that's funny. I want to. I like Kaminga. I want to see him get an opportunity. It pisses me off because Steve Kerr is doing the Jonathan Kaminga to what he did to Jason Tatum in the Olympics. It's the same. So like you, Steve Kerr let Jonathan Kaminga go somewhere and develop into whatever player he's supposed to be because he's playing like all these role players over Jonathan Kaminga when he has a team that needs Jonathan Kaminga. Makes no sense.
- [49:52]
Will
Yeah, it's always been a weird vibe there and now the value for him, I can imagine it's not much. They don't play him, so I can't imagine what they're going to get back. So we'll see what happens there. And yeah, there'll be plenty of transactions, I'm sure, between now and the deadline for us to talk about. But that's going to do it for this episode here. Green with envy. Celtics win 119 to 114. Coming up, Celtics are in Atlanta on Saturday and then it is MLK Day on Monday. They're going to round out that NBC lineup against the Pistons on Monday night. So we'll have something for you guys. I don't know if it'll be Sunday, Monday, Tuesday with the holiday. We'll figure it out. We'll let you know. But we will have you guys covered. As always. Appreciate you guys rocking with us and follow us across all the socials. But we will catch you guys later. Enjoy the rest of your week, enjoy your weekend and we will catch you guys next week. Peace. It don't take much no more.
- [50:49]
Mike Gorman
Until.
- [50:50]
Will
I hit the floor Every time I hit this high it's you I find it don't take much no more Until I'm at your dark.
- [51:24]
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