← Green With Envy: A Boston Celtics Podcast
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- [00:00]
Walmart Wellness Advertiser
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- [00:06]
Will
Wood thrush, three o'. Clock.
- [00:08]
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- [00:17]
Greg Meneakis
Oh, man. How about waterproof boots, size 10?
- [00:20]
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Greg Meneakis
Really? Who knew? Okay, was that you or the birds?
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- [01:00]
Greg Meneakis
This is Mike Gorman and you're listening.
- [01:02]
Will
To Green with Envy with Will and Greg. All right, everybody, is it time to believe the Celtics are giving us a reason? Celtics last night take down the New York Knicks 123 to 117 going through the best stretch of their season. We'll recap the game and we'll talk about what's real, what's not real, and what we should maybe look forward to that we didn't expect to for the rest of the season. All that more coming up next here on Green with Envy. You guys know the deal. Let's lock in.
- [01:53]
What up, what up, what up? Welcome into a another edition of Green with Envy. As always, this is your boy Will. We're checking in.
- [02:02]
Joining me as he does each and every time, my best friend, co host and the coach of our podcast, the one and only Greg Meneakis. Greg, it is a damn good day to be the Celtics fan. As Jalen Brown exclaimed on his stream last night after the game, Celtics beat the Knicks 123 to 117. Jaylen Brown called it belts to ass. That's how this team is feeling right now. Greg, how are you feeling?
- [02:29]
Greg Meneakis
I'm feeling great. Have you been watching the the clips of the Celtics in the locker room after these games?
- [02:35]
Will
Not a lot. I did catch the one last night that they had with Super Sign. Super Saiyan. Is that how you say it? Right?
- [02:41]
Greg Meneakis
And then did you hear Joe Missoula's comments?
- [02:43]
Will
I did last night.
- [02:44]
Greg Meneakis
Y. Yeah, I. So for everyone who. Who hasn't seen Joe Missoula went into the locker room after the game and was basically like, these are the games that want to make me get better. Like, these are the games that make me believe, basically. Right. Which is what this podcast is going to be all about. Once we recap the the Celtics and Knicks game, is, is it time to really start believing and having more than just like, irrational hope as Celtics fans that they could make a Eastern Conference finals run? Right. There's so many things that we're starting to see with this team that's like building a shape and building an identity. And it seems like Missoula is starting to figure it out. We're a quarter of the way through the season, and that the first quarter of the season is always the time to experiment. And once you've locked things down, when the games become more important, you start to see who really matters. And I think this game against the Knicks was one of those games where you. You really saw one, the versatility of. Of the bench and two, who Missoula seems to think is one of those guys that can play like, high leverage minutes.
- [03:54]
Will
I think that last part is what's really stood out to me in these, you know, last two weeks of games, right, that include wins over the Magic, over the Pistons, over the Cavs, now over the Knicks. Really the kind of the four teams that we went into the season going, this is where the east kind of goes through Hawks we're going to be. We'll see and we can talk about them in a little bit. But like, that was kind of the established top four. If we had to predict where the east was going to go through and so have wins against all those teams, you know, in the last. In the last couple weeks here. And to your point, I think Missoula is really settling into who he will play, who he won't play, when he thinks it's the. The right time to do it. And, you know, what we've basically established is there's like four or five guys that are going to play every single night, and then other than that, it's going to be kind of up and down as to how many minutes who plays. And thing that's really sticking out to me is, is it's very clear in that front line. Nemus Kate is the only guy that. That Joe Masula trusts. And I'm. This is probably one of my most fascinating elements of these last couple of games is it's for the most part, especially If Neemi has been healthy, it's Neemi, and then it's kind of all wings and guards. Right. And Joe Missoula. And this is where I think it's really interesting. He's just leaning into, these are my best guys. Or at least that's how I'm reading into it, as these are my best guys. This is who we're gonna play regardless of position. And last night was a night where I thought that could have got us into some real trouble. And it was really impressive to watch how the Celtics navigated this with only one center playing and. And playing limited minutes because he's still coming back from that injury. Nemi only played 21 minutes last night. Other than that, Amari Williams played six seconds. No one out, no one from the front court played last night. And it was all wings and guards. And for the Celts to come out with a win against a team that you would think that's a distinct advantage, that's really, really impressive stuff from this team.
- [05:49]
Greg Meneakis
Yeah. So for this season, The Celtics have a plus 14.5 net rating when they play without a center. 352 total possessions, which is a pretty impressive number. So you're looking at lineups with Josh Minot at the 5, Jaylen Brown at the 5, Jordan Walsh at the 5.
- [06:09]
Will
Here's the thing on that. Are these. Who is the five? I don't even. I don't like we're saying them as the five. I understand the. The point that you're making, but it's. It's almost the. We've talked for many years about the malleability of. Of lineups and the versatility that you need to have. Those guys are kind of just rotating on five. Because now you're like, what's the difference of Jalen Brown guarding Common, Anthony Towns versus Jordan Walsh versus, you know, Josh Minot or Ugo Gonzalez? You're kind of comfortable. It's kind of the same.
- [06:35]
Greg Meneakis
Yeah. And that's what I was going to say, like, bringing it back to the Knicks game last night. You think about all the guys that guarded Towns as a primary assignment, Right. Jaylen Brown was the guy who started on Jalen Brunson, which I was surprised because they wanted to have Walsh on town so they could switch the. The Brunson and Towns pick and roll right in Towns, and they just ended up going two man to get Jaylen on Towns to try and get Jaylen in foul trouble. That was kind of how they played out most of the first quarter there. Then you saw a little Bit of min it on Towns. And then it wasn't until Ugo got in the game where Joe was like, all right, time to break Ugo in case of emergency, as he does in every game, right? Like, I really need something, Ugo. Not yet, not yet, not yet, not yet. And then he finally brings Ugo in the game and he completely changed the, the, the feel for Towns. And Towns had a classic Towns meltdown, which is about the time that I texted Lip tac, Cat sucks, right? Just because Ugo just got in his head and Cat had a complete meltdown and Mike Brown took him out of the game. But then Jalen went back to covering him. Then Jaylen got I think his third or fourth foul. And then Derek White was like, I got it, I got it. I can cover Towns, right? So, like all these guys are playing far above their height and their position in order to demonstrate that versatility where they don't have to go to Luca Garza, who should not be playing NBA basketball, and Xavier Tillman, the oldest 26 year old in the NBA who actually played great in his last game that he played. But like, those are not guys that you really want to play in high leverage games. Right? That was always my thing with Luca. Earlier in the season when Scow was going off about how great Luca Garza is, I was like, he's never going to play a meaningful playoff basketball minute. Like, that's just not who he is. He's fine for 82 games spot minutes. Xavier Tillman's fine for 82 games spot minutes at this point in his career. But, but like these guys that you saw last night against the Knicks, these are the guys that are like real players in today's NBA. And it was Ugo, Josh Minot, Jordan Walsh.
- [08:33]
Will
Right.
- [08:33]
Greg Meneakis
Those guys off the bench were guys that Joe Missoula really believed in.
- [08:38]
Will
Yeah. And to your point on Cat here, the most time spent guarding him last night, Jaylen Brown, Ugo Gonzalez and Jordan Walsh. And Jordan Walsh led the way, followed by Ugo and then Jalen Brown. Like those, those were the three main assignments. And the only other guy over a minute was. Was Derrick White as well. So all of those points. Extremely. And it's so fascinating watching the Celtics go through this run of Eastern Conference opponents because it speaks to what we've said now on a couple different podcasts. The west is the varsity and the east is the jv and the jv. Anything can happen. Right. There's a reason. Then we'll dig more into that here in a minute. About what to believe for this team, given what we're seeing on the court. But again, looking at last night, you know, we gotta obviously talk about Jalen Brown's just ridiculous performance, but I, I want to stick with this. Jordan Walsh, Josh Minot and Ugo Gonzalez, you know, wing rotation and you can throw a Baylor shrimp. He didn't really play much last night, but Bayless Ironman has in the past several games been a part of this as well. And, and so Greg, I'm curious, let's, let's do a quick power rankings here. How do, how do we rank these four? We've talked about it, but like we, we do need to start this. There's these four guys and, and you know, last night, Jordan Walsh plays 19 minutes, Josh Minot plays 27 minutes, 22 and a half minutes for, for Ugo. And it really felt at kind of different times and moments this power ranking board that we're gonna, you know, try to attempt, attempt right now. It would have shifted multiple times in the game last night.
- [10:12]
Greg Meneakis
Yeah, they're all really good players, which is fun. They all, they all do something a little bit different from the other on the court, but what they all do is they all play their ass off. Right? And Josh Minot really set the tone with that earlier in the season. Ugo did as well. I think Ugo was probably the first one to do it where Jalen was like, it can't just be the rook, right? It has to be everybody on the roster that's playing with that Ugo energy. And in terms of power rankings, I'd probably go Walsh one right now. Just in terms of pure impact on the court. Mine it to Ugo 3, Charman 4. But I think Ugo is my favorite. So if I'm going like, favorite, it's Ugo, Walsh, Minot, Charman.
- [10:54]
Will
Yeah, and this is the, you know, the Joe Missoula of it. All. Right. And this is, this is where in our last episode when we did kind of first quarter awards, I made up one of just like, I gotta see more of Joe because he just confuses me on a night to night basis. And there's elements to Joe where I'm like, this dude is just a mad genius and I'm not giving him his props. And there's other elements where I'm like, dude, we have two ball handlers for the last five minutes on the court, where we're barely holding this together here, like, can we get another ball handler? But it's working. His, the moves that he is making are working Even if it doesn't always make sense, even if it doesn't always look pretty, like the decisions that he's making are working. But I do think Ugo, to your point, being your favorite, that's one of the ones where it's like, why is he not playing 10 to 15 minutes every single night? Like, why is last night feel like finally, as opposed to, okay, cool, we're getting more than the random three minutes of Ugo unleashed at the beginning of a fourth quarter to just play, you know, out of his mind, Tasmanian devil style. And then that's it, right? It's. It's those type of things that are still very confusing about this team, but it's also what's making this season really fun, to be 100 honest. Like, I'm having way more fun with this season than I could have envisioned.
- [12:12]
Greg Meneakis
This season's been a blast, man. It's been really fun watching. And I, I do want to. Before we get into like the overall season, I. I want to stay focused on the game last night for a little bit longer. Because you mentioned the last five minutes of the game in crunch time against the Knicks, the lineup that Missoula rolled with, right, he benched Peyton Pritchard, Anthony Simons was on the bench. Nemi K is on the bench. He goes Jaylen Brown, Derrick White, Sam, Sam Houser, Josh Minot, Jordan Walsh. That was the five on the court to close the game last night. And you know, you said, can we get another ball handler on the court? What we ended up doing, right, is we go pick and roll. Jaylen Brown as the ball handler with Josh Minot or Jordan Walsh rolling into space in the short roll, entrusting Minot, entrusting Jordan Walsh to make reads out of the short roll. They did a great job with that. Jaylen did a good job with the passing. He hit the short roll on time, on target. The first one to Walsh was a little ahead, and Walsh did a great job recovering to get it. But all the other ones were the.
- [13:13]
Will
Kick out to mine it for the three, right? That's the one you're talking about?
- [13:16]
Greg Meneakis
I think so, yeah. Where he. He like literally had to sprint to get the ball right. Where normally you don't want to make your guys sprint to go get that. But I think Jaylen as a playmaker, right, The. The willingness and the poise to accept two and give up the ball to mine it. And Walsh in the short role for them to make a play in a three on two situation. Advantage basketball as Missoula loves That just shows how much, like how much development we've seen out of Jaylen Brown so far this season that he's just like, you know what? I'm going to trust the rooks, I'm going to trust the young guys and they're, they're going to do their thing.
- [13:53]
Will
And especially on a night where in the second and third quarter he scored 33 points, he went 13 to 17 from the field. This is a night where he's absolutely cooking like he took over this game in the second quarter after self, admittedly a really, really poor first quarter and then came in and completely changes this game. And for him to be able to put that trust against a team that came in last year and kind of kicked our ass in that series. Right. Like you can, we can phrase it a whole bunch of ways. Believe me, I've thought about that series from five different angles. End of the day, the Knicks won that series. It is what it is. But that's the team that essentially broke up the championship team, right? Like, because if the Celtics, you know, save the Tatum injury to the, to the side, the Celtics find a way to get by that and when they somehow get back to the NBA Finals, like the ownership group is probably like, we had to just eat this tax bill at least for one more year. Like they're, they're probably figuring out a way or they're not breaking it down as much as they did this off season. The Knicks broke the championship Celtics like that, that they, they helped, they accelerated the rebuild along with the second apron. And so for Jalen, who I'm sure wants revenge for the 220 point comebacks at home, for him to then put that trust in those guys. Like you said, number one, it's wild that they're out there against, you know, I know there's no ogn and that's mostly a fully formed Knicks team that's out there. And for the trust for both Jalen and Joe, who are kind of the two heads of the snake, if you will, for this Celtics team and their identity and the culture that they're building throughout this roster, like that just speaks so much volume to the work that has gone in from these guys. And I think again, going back to your original point of the clip afterwards, I, I think it came through in Joe's post game comments. The team.
- [15:46]
Greg Meneakis
Yeah. And when you think about the game last night, the knicks were down 18 points right in the second half, maybe even in the fourth quarter. And Mikhail Bridges starts hitting threes again. And I'm Having flashbacks to last season, right. And Mikhail Bridges starts talking. He was awesome last night and he was, he was the main reason that the Knicks beat the Celtics in those first two games in Boston. Right. So when you see that and you're just like, oh, well, here comes the, the 20 point comeback that we just saw and like the Knicks are going to roll through us and the, the, the balance is going to stay New York over Boston and then we're able to pull that game out, right. A couple of times, I think Peyton Pritchard had a couple moments, Anthony Simons had a couple moments. It was just like everybody was kind of contributing. Sam Houser hit a couple big threes. And then down the stretch when I'm just assuming we're going to lose the game because they have Jalen Brunson, who historically has decimated the Celtics in crunch time, and we are giving the ball to Jordan Walsh and Josh Mina in the short roll. It's just kind of tough to think that we're going to win that game. But we ended up doing it. And Jordan Walsh, the garbage man, the junkyard dog, as I started calling him on the last pod, like, he gets those offensive rebounds where just like he, he had a huge steal at one point as well. Like, he was everywhere in crunch time and it was all because Joe Missoula and Jaylen Brown decided to trust him. And if Jordan Walsh, especially when you compare him versus Mikhail Bridges side by side last night, defensively, like, is there a difference between Mikhail Bridges the defender and Jordan Walsh the defender? Like, I don't know that there is. Like, Jordan Walsh is pretty damn special on defense.
- [17:25]
Will
Yeah, he's making a case for it, man. It's, it's really hard to deny Jordan Walsh on defense. And you know, it's, it's interesting because he, he had been impactful in the game up to that point, but not, I mean, the way that he turned it on in that fourth quarter, it was hard not for that to jump off.
- [17:41]
Greg Meneakis
Well, I wouldn't have been surprised if, if Walsh didn't get back on the court.
- [17:45]
Will
Right. That was part of that. That's part of the genius and the madness of Missoula all in one. Where it was to that point Jordan Walsh had been fine, but I don't think it screamed, this is Jordan, Jordan Walsh fourth quarter takeover. Right? This is gonna be. You know, you joked in our group chats, Jordan Walsh legacy game coming.
- [18:05]
Greg Meneakis
Was I joking.
- [18:08]
Will
On the last pod?
- [18:09]
Greg Meneakis
You couldn't tell if I was joking or not.
- [18:10]
Will
So I don't know.
- [18:12]
Hey man, you got some, you got some takes there that are tough to, tough to decipher sometimes. I think that's a kudos to you. But it definitely was a Jordan Walsh quarter, legacy quarter at least, right? You know, four rebounds, three offensive, had six points. You mentioned the short roll game. Like just so many elements where Jordan Walsh was just in the mix with everything happening. And to that point in the game, it hadn't necessarily dictated like it did in Cleveland, right? Like in Cleveland, it was very visible throughout the game. It was Jordan Walsh's best game as a pro.
- [18:43]
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- [19:09]
Walmart Wellness Advertiser
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- [19:16]
Will
Wood Thrush, three o'.
- [19:17]
Greg Meneakis
Clock.
- [19:17]
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Walmart has a wellness side too, with tons of things I need to feel good, from electrolytes to help keep me hydrated to soothing cough drops for after every show.
- [19:26]
Will
Oh man.
- [19:27]
Greg Meneakis
How about waterproof boots, size 10?
- [19:29]
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- [19:33]
Greg Meneakis
Really? Who knew? Okay, was that you or the birds?
- [19:37]
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- [19:41]
Will
This game he was fine. But the last six he played six minutes and 15 seconds in that fourth quarter. That's where the majority of his work was done last night in the 19 minutes he played. It was in that six, 15 in the fourth. And so that's just a trust that is built up over time. And these are the things that as much as we were sending Jordan Walsh to China that we don't see, these are the things that get built up behind the scenes. And it has been, you know, honestly I really remarkable to see how quickly Jordan Walsh has gone from DNPs, the first, you know, eight games of the season to starting the last nine games and feeling like I can't imagine Jordan Walsh not starting going forward. But then again, I know and I'm.
- [20:20]
Greg Meneakis
Thinking like when I see the closing lineup last night when Tatum comes back, I'm like, does Pritchard go back to the bench? Is it Walsh in the starting lineup now? Is it Derrick White? Because I mean that's the, that is the lineup. Derrick White, Jordan Walsh Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum, Nemi Kada or Jordan Walsh at the 5 with that lineup and you do have Pritchard on the court. Or it's Josh Minot and then it's Derrick White, Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum, Josh Minot, Jordan Walsh, like the, the way that the NBA is trending, right, with Josh Minot shooting like damn near 50% from 3 and being a passed on defense and being able to play small ball five. Jordan Walsh being in top five defender in the league like in his minutes this year, he's been unbelievable. And the inherent defense that you get out of Derrick White, Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, like, holy, that's a scary lineup. And when you think about, let's just transition in it, is it time to believe in the Boston Celtics? Who do you have to beat, right, to, to make it to the finals? And who do you have to beat in the finals, right? That's really what you're thinking about at this point. Is it time to believe? And do we have the recipe to contend with teams like the Knicks to get through the east, like the Cavs, like the Pistons, like the Magic. And if we were somehow to make the finals this year, can we beat the Thunder? Can we compete with the Thunder?
- [21:43]
Will
Probably.
- [21:43]
Greg Meneakis
No, because it doesn't seem like anybody.
- [21:45]
Will
I was gonna say the latter, the latter part of that of, of can they compete in the West? I think that's a, that's, that's a story for a different day, maybe a different season. Like I just, even, even outside of the Thunder, there's some of the top teams in the west that over a seven game series, you look at, you know, whether it's the, the Nuggets, maybe the Rockets, really I would just say the Nuggets and Thunder. I, I just don't see a world of those. Thunder don't even have to be healthy, which is the crazy part. They don't even have to be healthy. And I don't see a world that many teams are competing with them. Healthy Nuggets, I think that's really difficult. But I think if we focus on the Eastern Conference and of course you get to the finals. Who saw the Pacers taking, taking the Thunder to seven games last year? Nobody, right? So you just got to get there. And who knows, there's a rolled ankle, there's, you know, all types of different stuff because you have to have a mix of a really good team and a little bit of luck as well too, right? Like that is a part of every single championship run that happens. And so when you look at the east and getting through it. I, I really think obviously this is dependent on Tatum coming back and even not being 100, but being 85 of whatever. And I think it's something that you brought up last episode about what is the assimilate or what. What does the assimilation of Tatum to this team look like? That's a fascinating discussion that I think we can break out further as it gets closer to a potential return. But if you factor in Tatum and I think as much as I'm fascinated by Joe's one big in all wings approach to the, to the front court, which is just kind of gross. Behind Nemi is Keda. I think they got to find at least one more big playable big like. But the fact that you can feel like you're a Tatum return, which by all indications seems like he wants it, he's pushing for it. You see the clips of him playing one on one. I think earlier this week, like looks strong, looks strong enough. You know, we're, we're, we're, we're playing armchair doctor, but look strong, looks like there could be potential. And if you're one backup center away, that's pretty incredible enough that you, you've got to feel confident. And you just rolled off wins against the Magic, against Detroit, you've two, zero against Cleveland, you're. And one against the Knicks. These are the teams that you're going up against. And so it's, it's hard for me at this point on December 3rd not to feel like why wouldn't I believe who's, who's the team that you look at that you're like, yeah, that's just too tough of a matchup. When you bring Jason Tatum back to this team, then I don't think we can. It matters. No, there's not a single team that this, that the Celtics should be afraid of if they get back Jason Tatum.
- [24:10]
Greg Meneakis
And I think a lot of this has to do with. Are the conversation we started to have on the last pot about where Jaylen Brown actually ranks in the NBA in the Eastern Conference because there's like we said, first team, all NBA, right. Sga, Jokic, Luca Giannis, probably Cade because of team success. Right. But there in my mind it is not definitive that Cade Cunningham is a better basketball player.
- [24:36]
Will
Kate's the open spot. He's the leader probably right now in the clubhouse, but that's a complete open spot right now. Right.
- [24:42]
Greg Meneakis
And like Cade is, is a special player. Jalen Brunson's a special player. Donovan Mitchell's a Special player. But none of these guys like definitively are a better player than Jalen Brown, right? It all depends on who's having the right season. Is everything coming together, two way play, all that stuff. And Jalen Brown is now getting the opportunity to be the guy in crunch time, right? And he's leading The Celtics last 10 games. Celtics are seven and three. Right. Maybe even eight. Maybe even eight and two. I, I don't know exactly what the number is right now, but the, the team success is there, right. For Jaylen Brown. If you look at the rest of the conference, the only team that's like levitating above everybody else is the Pistons. The Celtics are two and a half games out of second place right now. You know what I mean? Like it's not too far. So I think for me you can make the argument that Jaylen Brown deserves a first team all NBA spot this year. And when it comes to the playoffs and if Jalen continues to play at this level, which we haven't seen before him doing this for an entire season, but we've seen it for a quarter of a season where he's been a top five player in the league. And I think that there's nobody in the east that I would be scared of if we have Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum, Derrick White and all these young wings that are just ready to play that I, that I would be scared of. I just don't see it.
- [26:04]
Will
Yeah. Right now, Jalen Brown is last five games here, 34 points, 7.2 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals over 53 effective field goal percentage. And you know, much ballyhooed earlier, you know, a couple games ago here, free throw line, getting there 8.8 times per game. Jalen is just on absolutely the most special run, you know, of his career. And yeah, just, it's, it's. There's no reason the Celtics can't start to think about this. And this feels crazy because I really thought that this, you know, at the beginning of the season when people told me that maybe this is a possibility and this is where I'm trying to battle with Greg is I don't know if this is the Celtics exceeding my expectations, the rest of the east being a little bit worse than even I anticipated, or maybe it's just a little bit of both. Maybe that's actually the answer is that there's. The east is a lot. Even though I already thought it was mediocre going into the season, it's even more mediocre than I thought. And the Celtics are probably a Little bit better. I think that's probably the right answer.
- [27:02]
Greg Meneakis
Is there. How many people have played below your expectations? How many people have exceeded your expectations on the roster? I think it'd probably be easier to say who has played under expectation because I feel like most people have exceeded my expectations.
- [27:17]
Will
Yeah, I mean, I would say so. Under, under my expectations would be, you know, Anthony Simons would be Chris Boucher, who by the way, that probably should have been the biggest disappointment is that Boucher is just. I kind of forgot he was on the team. That's probably the answer to our award segment from last episode of Biggest Disappointment. Basically, all the bigs not named Nemi es K have. I mean, depending on what the expectations were for them, you know, but other than that, you're right. It's, it's basically I'd say Sam Houser's kind of neutral as far as like expectations and, and what he's been. And even Derrick White has been below. Right. That's, that's probably the answer is Simons White and Boucher, who I thought would be a rotation player, they've all been below everybody else has either been neutral and, or exceeded expectations as to what I had going of the season.
- [28:05]
Greg Meneakis
Yeah, no, I, I totally agree. And it is going to be tough for all these guys to continue to play at this level. Like Josh Minot shooting damn near 50% from 3. Like, I just don't know if that's going to continue because his shots so goddamn ugly.
- [28:19]
Will
Gross. It's.
- [28:20]
Greg Meneakis
It's so ugly. But I did start thinking Josh Minot from the corner. Starting to remind you a little bit of Grant Williams from the corner.
- [28:30]
Will
Are you saying that if we get to the playoffs, we're getting, we're getting a Josh Minot game where he.
- [28:33]
Greg Meneakis
Well, I was actually thinking that last night. I was like, are the Knicks just gonna dare Josh Minot to shoot 15 threes tonight? And will Josh Minot shoot 15 threes tonight and be okay with it? That's what I was kind of expecting to happen last night. And I think you'll start to see teams try and get the ball into minus hands, into Walsh's hands at the three point line more and make those guys hit shots because they, they haven't done it over there over like a long, a big sample size. So I think that's going to be an adjustment you'll see a lot of teams start to make.
- [29:03]
Will
Yeah, I mean that's the biggest thing with those three guys. Right? It's consistency of being able to actually knock down the open shots that they're going to get, and without Tatum, they're going to have more opportunities because there's going to be two of them on the court a lot of times, right? So those are going to be the guys. And you even start at the end of the game, right? And that's how they ended up getting the ball a lot, is because they were like. The Knicks were like, okay, cool. We're not letting Jalen Brown and Derrick White beat us. Like, those are the two guys that, you know, we trust them. We'll keep one guy on Sam Houser, because we respect his shot. Other than that, we're gonna. We're gonna let these two guys have to go make some plays if you guys are gonna win. And they made the plays last night. Now, is that always going to be the case with guys that are 22, 21, and 20 years old? Probably not, right? Like, there's probably going to be a couple games where it's like, okay, that's not working. We can't have two of them out there, and we got to get Pritchard back in, or we got to have Kada back in for whatever reason. But that's the. That's the Joe Missoula feel, right, of understanding when it's working, when it's not working. And. And that's where you see Jaylen Brown and Derrick White. You know, really, those feel like the only two guys that are guaranteed to be on the court at the end of the game. That's it. Like, and Payton Pritchard's close to that. But, you know, we saw last night that it wasn't the case. And so it feels like outside of those two guys, you might mix and match or Joe might mix and match, whoever the other three are that need to be out there. And I like that from a coach, especially when you look at, you know, the. The results that we got from last season. The Thunder, the Pacers, they didn't always have the same five. Of course, they had the staples out there, right? Like Halliburton, Siakam. You know, SGA is going to be out there. Thunder more so are a little bit more traditional with who would be out there. But the Pacers are a really good example of a team where, other than Halibur and Siakam, I have no idea night to night, who was going to be in that final, that final five. For them to close it out, it was dependent on the matchup and who was playing well. And that's kind of where this Celtics team is leaning Right now without Tatum is you got Brown, you got White most nights, you got Pritchard and the rest of it. They're just going to figure it out game to game.
- [30:57]
Greg Meneakis
Yeah. And I think, you know, dating all the way back to Ema's team with the Celtics and like going to the finals and thinking that, I don't know that we have our best lineup on the court right now. Like Derrick White seems like he might be better than Marcus Smart. Like we were having those conversations at that time.
- [31:14]
Will
Forget, don't forget the Dennis Schroeder lineups. Stars, your corners. Dennis Schroeder, Marcus Smart, two man game to end it.
- [31:21]
Greg Meneakis
But even like IME not being willing to play the guys that seem to be deserving, like he was like, all right, these are my closing five and I'm sticking with it. Joe Missoula's first year, very similar. This is my closing five, I'm sticking with it. And then last year you started to see, okay, he's playing Peyton Pritchard over Drew Holiday in some situations to close out games. Right there was like a little bit more like, I'm just gonna see who's, who deserves to be on the court, read the game a little bit more. And now because you don't know who your closing five is, you can really just lean into that philosophy and just give the game what it needs. And I think, I think that's probably where the team needs to end up, right, Is like there's always going to be Tatum, Brown, White, those three are going to be on the court in crunch time. But having two spots where you can give the game what it needs, I think could be really beneficial for this team. If we're looking forward towards potential matchups in all the different types of teams that are out there in the Eastern Conference, I think that's really going to help this team.
- [32:28]
Will
And you have to have the versatility right? So that gets again back to the piece of what we're looking for that's real to believe in long term with this team. And so I think the versatility is going to be key. And that's where for me I'm like, we need one more big right. Because they're are going to be whether it's in the east or if you do want to really look ahead, there's going to be. Sometimes you got to get big. You got to be able to have that second that you know that's that second big man that you can always have somebody out there. And obviously Tatum coming back at 6, 10 that, that helps a lot because he, you know, he can easily slot into. Hey, we're playing all wings. Cool. I'll be the center. Like we've seen him do that. He guards wing. He guards centers in the NBA Finals. Like we have seen that. And so I know one of the missions that I have for this rest of the season, Greg, is find, find a way to get the Celtics and other big. Like, that's, that's got, it's. One of my goals is how do we turn. And honestly, how do we turn Simons into that, into that big. Like that's the biggest thing because I, even when Simons is hitting a couple shots, I just don't feel the impact from Simons most nights. And you know, it's a.
- [33:22]
Greg Meneakis
Such a good shooter, man. I want to see him play with Tatum. I really hope Tatum comes back before the trade deadline because I do think they could play really well together. There's also a world in which they just play the ugliest form of step back three point shooting basketball.
- [33:38]
Will
Guy.
- [33:39]
Greg Meneakis
That takes the Tatum threes right now, which drive so many Celtics fans crazy. It's just like, why settle? Like, you see what Jalen's doing right now, just like not settling for threes. Like, you also can do that. Tatum, you know, and yeah, Simon's.
- [33:54]
Will
I mean, that's my biggest thing.
- [33:56]
Greg Meneakis
Simon's just like a 6, 2 bad version to Tatum.
- [33:59]
Will
Yeah, it's, it's. I mean, it's kind of what it is, to be honest. And I mean, he got. I, I texted you last night. I was like, you know, I was, I was going through it when Nas Reed just for seven seconds, just couldn't, couldn't move him even six inches off his spot last night. Town stopped him. I'm like, Jesus Christ, can this guy get by just anybody, man? Just anybody. And it's like if he doesn't have a window and he's already going downhill, it's just, it's just not happening. And again, I think Missoula puts him in bad positions, but at the same time, just Simons is not, not what I expected.
- [34:30]
It's, it's not, it's not gone great. I don't, I don't love that. But you know, one thing, I am.
- [34:35]
Greg Meneakis
Starting to believe in him a little bit more.
- [34:37]
Will
Are you? I, I just, I just don't see it. And I'm just. And part of it is, to your point, I think him with Tatum could work. But the first thing in my mind is, is Missoula going to put them in a position to be successful because it, it honestly like can you think of a time where Missoula this season has put Simons in a spot where it's like this makes he is playing him a little bit more with Jalen Brown, which I think is going to be beneficial. So I will give, you know, that credit right now. We'll see if that continues. But for the most part I just don't feel like Joe has tried to, to put Simons in spot.
- [35:07]
Greg Meneakis
It doesn't seem like the Simons Pritchard backcourt would work. Like last night he tried that because he was going Simons and a bunch of dudes who can't create for themselves. So last night he tried Simons with Pritchard which also didn't really work. So yeah, it'll be interesting. I, I don't want to give up on Simons because it's still so new. He's clearly extremely talented. He's such a good shooter. Probably the, him and Hauser are probably the two best pure shooters on the roster. So I don't want to give up on someone who.
- [35:38]
Will
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is where I can't remember if it was on Instagram or YouTube, but I, I had some free time I think last week or two weeks ago and I was talking with, I can't remember who it was that was, that was commenting on one of the videos and, and they were pretty adamant about Simon's needing to start. And I don't necessarily agree with that premise, but him getting more time with higher caliber players as opposed to like you talked about him just being out there with like hey, run the show. It's you and Hauser and Minot and Walsh and Luca Garza. Like that's just not a good recipe for Anthony Simons or this team to, to be successful. But I do wonder if him playing with Jalen and Derrick White all of a sudden that opens up more opportunity for his shot. And as I mentioned, like if he has a lane and some momentum, he can get in the lane and kind of make something happen. He's a really good tough shot maker, which is a very, very valuable skill. But when it's him just dancing and dancing in a way that is not impactful, like he's not moving the defender, he's not shifting the defense and he's settling for those lesser Tatum step backs, the lesser version of those Tatum step backs, like, that's just bad. It's just not fun to watch. It's bad to. It's bad basketball but when you have him play off the Jalen's Derek Whites, you know, a vertical spacer in Nemius Kada, like I, I think that there is something there of him playing maybe not starting, but him playing more minutes with the starting lineups as mix, mix and match bench units maybe like that's where I think Joe needs to get a little bit more, a little bit more creative. But Greg, I want to look ahead at the Celtics schedule here just for a few minutes before we wrap up because there are more tests in the Eastern Conference coming here over the next two weeks. I think they're gonna be really fascinating basketball. So. So let's get the win last night. We're recording this on a Wednesday morning here. Celtics win 123, 117 day off to. Then you've got travel to Washington for a Thursday night game. Then it's back to back Friday at home against the Lakers, who have been playing excellent basketball right near the top of the, the Western Conference. We get to see Luca, get to see Reeves, get to see LeBron who's back. And then after that they have an interesting stretch of five games against some really interesting east opponents. Great with a lot of time off kind of in the middle because of the whole play in tournament rescheduling. But their next five games after they get through the Lakers on Friday, they're at Toronto couple day, three days off at Milwaukee, which I don't know if you saw the honest stuff floating around. Have you seen that?
- [38:05]
Greg Meneakis
I have, yeah. It seems like he might be on.
- [38:07]
Will
His way out, getting, getting a little spicy in Milwaukee again. So then they got mill, they're on the road for Toronto, on the road at Milwaukee, three days off surrounding both of these Milwaukee games. Weird scheduling. Then they played Detroit, followed by three more days off. Then they get a back to back.
- [38:22]
Greg Meneakis
With one of those. I think there's going to be a cup game in there somewhere.
- [38:27]
Will
I think this is already updated. I could be wrong here. Let me see here. I think this is updated. I'll double check that here as we start talking. But anyways, after the Lakers it's Toronto who's at the top of the Eastern Conference. Milwaukee. They have Yanis back trying to figure out that whole deal. Detroit, who you mentioned at the top. Miami, who's been maybe along with Toronto, the most surprising team and then Toronto again. So I think by the time we hit December 20th now we'll take us into basically the, the holiday break where they get a little bit of a slowdown. Pacers, Blazers and Jazz to, to end the month, like, we're going to know a lot about how we feel about this team in the Eastern Conference because they're going to get to play. They, They've already played a lot of the top tier. But the teams that are even surprising in the Eastern Conference, we're going to get a real strong view in the next coming weeks.
- [39:13]
Greg Meneakis
It's going to be a lot of fun. The team that I'm, I want to stack them up against is the Raptors because similar to the, the roster that the Celtics are building with these wings that are kind of interchangeable but can all cause havoc on defense and do a little bit on offense, like what the, the Raptors have out there with Scotty Barnes playing great basketball. Brandon Ingram, who I've always been a lot higher on than, than other people, he's playing great for them. We, you and I have always loved RJ Barrett and then Purdle is a great player. They've got the, the rookie Ferret Boyle, I think his name is.
- [39:48]
Will
He.
- [39:48]
Greg Meneakis
He's kind of in that mold again. So there's just a lot of guys on that team that I enjoy watching play. Jamal Shed love watching him play. My guy, Grady Dick. And yeah, I mean, I just think they're, they're a fun team and I think they, our guys will be able to look at them like Jaylen Brown's gonna be the best player on the court. But then like Josh Minot guarding Brandon Ingram, Ugo Gonzalez going up against RJ Barrett, you know, like all those fun little matchups that we might see out there. I think the Raptors, who I think are second in the east right now, they're a team that I think we're probably going to have to go through in the playoffs. So it'll be fun to see how we stack up against them and maybe by the end of this month. By the end of the month, the Celtics are right back up there as like, okay, they're a clear top five team in the East.
- [40:35]
Will
Yeah. So the Celtics right now, 12 and 9, sit eighth in the east. As you mentioned, the Raptors are in second. So looking at those teams that they're going to be playing, say for Milwaukee, which is just all about Giannis, it's Detroit, Toronto and Miami. That's your top three of the Eastern Conference this morning. And so that's going to be who the Celtics will be playing over the next couple of weeks. So, you know, they've already beat the Magic. They beat the Knicks. They're 20 against the Cavs, they've split with the Pistons. They'll get a third opportunity. Oh, by the way, I did look it up. So the. The Pistons and those Bucs games, those are the makeup cup games, so they're already in there. So really weird schedule with a lot of time off, a lot of practice built. And I think it's basically three games in nine days that after the Celtics get by the. The Lakers game on Friday, they'll have plenty of time built in. But this Eastern Conference, man, it's so weird. It's so weird. Like right now, just. Just looking at the. Let me just go through the. The top 11 teams here, because the bottom four don't matter. Those are the teams that are already. Already tanking, basically. But 1 through 11, we've got the Pistons, the Raptors, the Heat, the Knicks, the Magic, the Cavs, the Hawks, the Celtics, the Sixers, the Bulls, and the Bucks. How many of those teams would you just completely eliminate as in a weird, weird Eastern Conference are just definitely not coming out of the East. How many of those 11 teams do you think you would eliminate today? A quarter of the season in.
- [41:55]
Greg Meneakis
I don't think the Heat can win the conference. I don't think the Sixers can win the conference. I don't think the Bulls can win the conference. I don't think the Bucks can win the conference.
- [42:06]
Will
I'm gonna. I'm gonna reserve the Heat. I agree with you on the other three. I think it's the Sixers, Bulls and Bucks who are right now the bottom three teams of that 11, 9, 10, 11. The. Those are the three teams that I would just eliminate right now. I just don't see it. Heat, I got. I gotta watch them more because I. Whatever's going on there, spo. I think he's probably the best coach in the conference. And so you combine that, like, I'm with you. I probably lean that way. Like. Is a Norm Powell and Tyler hero team going to the finals? I don't know. But then again, is a Jalen Johnson team going to the finals? I don't know. Maybe. It's a weird, weird year.
- [42:40]
He's been awesome, right?
- [42:41]
Greg Meneakis
Yeah, he's. He's. I mean, two years ago I was a Jalen Johnson, Stan. And this year he's just like. He looks like. Like young LeBron at some points.
- [42:52]
Yeah, I think looking at that. The Pistons, I could see them in the finals. They're just so goddamn tough. And Cade is proving to be one of the best players in the league. The Raptors, I Could see it. I don't believe it. I could see it though. And because I predicted that they'd be in the conference finals, I'm rooting for them. But now that the Celtics are proving to be like just as good as all these other teams, I'm like the Raptors.
- [43:19]
The Knicks. I think the Knicks are the, the most sure fire team. Like the Knicks, Magic and Cavs I still think are the three teams that I could see making some noise in the finals.
- [43:31]
Will
Yeah, come out on the Cavs. I mean I'll include the Cabs. I'm just out on the Cavs. I just. Until they prove that I shouldn't be out on them. Just they're a good team. I'm not gonna say they're bad team.
- [43:42]
Greg Meneakis
They didn't have Mobile. They, I mean they didn't have Allen last game we played them and they haven't had Streuss or Meryl who are important for their team.
- [43:50]
Fair.
- [43:50]
Will
They also, every time they have all their guys it's like ah, now we don't know which guys it works with. It's so unfair. I don't know. Just like sorry guys, figure it out. You have a bunch of talent and they just, they just kind of don't. So I don't know. Point being east is wide open. Celtics fans, I guess we gotta believe. I don't really know what else to say. But the results are the results and so we'll continue to monitor this and see what is real, what's not real. And of course this will all hinge on the Jason Tatum injury developments that we will get I'm sure non stop once we hit 2,000.
- [44:22]
Greg Meneakis
What's the earliest, what's the earliest time that you wouldn't be surprised if Jason Tatum was backed by.
- [44:30]
Will
It's at least got to be in February at some point, right. Like you know, I would say post All Star break, right? Because there's no like if you're gonna bring them back like a game or two before the All Star break when you have like a full week off, it just doesn't really make a lot of sense. So to me it's, it's sometime in that stretch post All Star break. I'm just looking at the calendar now or looking at the schedule. They play the warriors, they have a west coast trip right after the.
- [44:55]
Right after the All Star break.
- [44:57]
Either that trip or then maybe when they come home the 27th against Brooklyn. Like that to me would feel like the earliest that we could possibly did.
- [45:06]
Greg Meneakis
Say his first game back will be in Boston. Right?
- [45:08]
Will
He did say that. You're right. You're right. So then in that scenario, I would say the literally the last day or the last game they have in February, which would be the 27th against Brooklyn, that that, to me, would be the earliest that we see him come back.
- [45:23]
Greg Meneakis
I'm excited. Yeah, I would say the earliest. I mean, I've had dreams that Jason Tatum's already playing again, like, literal dreams.
- [45:32]
I think I could see it happening as early as, like, mid January, but I know that's pie in the sky.
- [45:38]
Will
But, hey, that's what we're doing today. We didn't expect to win these games that they're winning right now. Right. So we got to believe it is what it is. That's gonna do it. For this episode here of Green with Envy. We will be back on the weekend. We'll have a lot more to talk about as the games against the Wizards, the Lakers and the Raptors coming up. We'll probably go live after that Raptors game on Sunday, so definitely a lot to talk about. Greg's Eastern Conference finals Raptors that the Celtics are taking on. We'll have something for you following that on Sunday, but that will do it for today. As always, appreciate you all for locking in with us here at Green Envy. We will catch you guys later.
- [46:20]
It don't take much no more.
- [46:24]
Mike Gorman
Until.
- [46:24]
Will
I hit the floor.
- [46:27]
Every time I get this high it's you I find it don't take much no more.
- [46:35]
Until I'm at your dark.
- [46:43]
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Will
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