← Green With Envy: A Boston Celtics Podcast
Green With Envy: A Boston Celtics Podcast
Is it time to trade Derrick White? Six trades that the Celtics could explore
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to Green with Envy with Will and Greg. All right, everybody, Pistons and Cavs are tipping off game seven. We're recording here on a Sunday night where last week we talked about the Jalen Brown trade scenarios. We're making our way through the roster, seeing what the changes could be. Tonight's episode, didn't wear a Hat. Tonight in honor, we're doing the Derrick White episode. So tonight we're going to talk about some fake Derrick White trades. Plus, Shay Gilder's house. Alexander wins his second MVP Voting results just came in hot. We'll discuss that here at the top. This is Green with Envy. You guys know the deal. Let's lock in. What up, what up, what up? Welcome into another edition of Green with Envy. We are live here on YouTube and Twitter on a Sunday night. Game 7 is underway about halfway through the first quarter between Cavs and Pistons in the second round. The final piece of the puzzle for the conference finals in both the west and the east about to get settled on this episode. Today we're going to talk about the next step and potentially what could be a monumental offseason for the Celtics. We're going to talk about. Oh, got me to say it. We're talking about Derek White trades. And here to help me do that, as always, is my best friend, co host and the coach of our podcast, the one and only Greg Bonakis. Greg, I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm very excited when we get to the trade portion here because you, you've been in like a flow state on the, on the trade machine over the last, I don't know, maybe three, four days where I've just been waking up to text messages and a couple different group chats to kind of get feelers out there of, of different trades you're working out. So I'm excited to see what you came up with today.
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Yeah, it's been fun, man. I mean in between wedding planning and just being a dad, that's pretty much all I've been doing is hanging out on the on spot tracks, fake trade machine and it's been fun, man. It's been fun. I've had a lot of. It's been a lot easier to come up with the financial like I feel like there's a lot of ways to make the finances work. So it's been cool. We'll see if you like any of the ideas we put onto our Instagram. We put the Jada McDaniels Nas Reed idea for Jalen Brown. Mixed results. We got some people that were not happy. Caveman was not happy I think. Let's see who else reached out. Mr. Buchanan from, from Crow Worthy. He reached out. Rayshawn. So it's, it's been fun just seeing the, the mixed reactions to that.
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Yeah, I think people are probably on that one just quickly probably underestimating how good Jaden McDaniels and there's probably a pick or two that needs to be involved. In all fairness, it's probably one of those ones where I think it, it evokes a lot of discussions. Probably doesn't all doesn't cross the line. But we'll talk about it because I've got a Timberwolf in one of my trades. We'll talk more about that. But before we jump into the Derrick White portion of the program today, today SGA won his second MVP award. And then right before we came on, I'm gonna put this live on the screen. Greg here first that you're seeing of it. Here are the actual voting results that came in. So SGA ends up winning the MVP award by a couple hundred points ahead of Nicola Jokic who finished the second. Wemby finishes third. Really the three of them as kind of expected, far and away kind of the top three vote getters all 550 plus points in fourth ended up Luca at 250. Cade comes in fifth at 117. And then you get to Jaylen Brown at 88 points here. And Greg, it's kind of interesting Jaylen Brown finishing in sixth given so many media outlets made so much content based off saying the hot take of Japan. Jaylen Brown is actually the mvp. And now you actually see him come in sixth place which is going to be really interesting to see what that means for all NBA My guess is probably not great for Jalen Brown getting to that first team. But you told me before we signed on you hadn't seen these results. I'd only seen them a few minutes before, but let me get your thoughts on it.
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Regular season award so because of that, like, I feel like Jalen should have been above Cade. Just because I think the Celtics had the more surprising season just given expectations. I think a lot of people had the Pistons being a top five team in the east, maybe not being the one seed, but there was a world in which the Pistons had a really good year. Nobody saw the Celtics having the year that they had in the regular season. So I think there's a little bit of disrespect there. The Luca MVP stuff, I mean, just get out of here with that dude. Like, I just don't understand why people say still continue just to use the, to use the term that the kids are using these days. Glaze. Luka Doncic. It's just, I, I just don't understand it at all. He, he had a hell of a year statistically, I thought. Like I watched a lot of Lakers this year. I feel like of the teams in the NBA, Lakers were probably a top four five team that I, that I actually threw onto the tv. So I feel like I had a pretty good understanding of who Luca was this season. He was pretty awful to start the year, especially defensively. And then he, he, he turned it on. He had like an MVP stretch for sure. But in terms of like him being an MVP above Jaylen Brown for the entire season, that's where I'm just like, I, I don't get it. I, I totally see Wemby, I see Jokic, and I see sga. I think all three of those guys were a level above Jalen this year. But Luca, just because the two way stuff, even though he did play more defense in the second half of the year, I just don't, I just don't agree with that.
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A
So I mean, you just said the magic part. Right? Like, see, right. The top three guys, there's no question there. I actually don't really have much of a problem with Cade. Like the injury was. The timing of it was probably one thing you could look at. Like you said expectations. But again, I think more people would have thought they would have been the four or five seed versus a one seed. And Celtics obviously. Six, seven and up two. Whatever. Like, I, I'm okay with Kate. I think the fact that you just said, I mean Luca played defense for a stretch like that's the part where it's like, if we're putting a guy ahead of another guy who plays more often, plays both sides of the ball, consistently exceeded expectations. And, you know, you can argue over how much exceeding expectations should play into it. Like, Luca shouldn't get dinged that he averaged 33, 34 points because we were like, that's kind of what Luca does, right? Like, that's still really freaking amazing. And to your point, he had stretches, as did Jalen, as did Cade, who had about three weeks where it was like, maybe Cade's the mvp. Like, every single one of these guys had had a moment in the season where it was like, you could make a realistic case that this guy is mvp, obviously the top three by the end of the season. I. I would be. It would be hard to make a case that those three guys didn't separate themselves by the time you look at the entirety of the season. And I think Cade, Luca, and Jaylen are kind of in their own class. And for me, it's Cade and Jaylen at the top. And I just. Because, like you said, I. Luke, all of the guys above Luca say, for Jokic, to a degree, like, play both sides of the ball, right? Like, and so I. The part that's. I just can't stand with Luka anymore is when he gets credit for attempting to play defense for a couple of weeks.
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Right.
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I think. I think looking at, like, the Sixer series, like, when I watch Tyrese Maxey, he's a guy that's never going to be an A plus defender, but he works his ass off, right? Like, he made Jaylen Brown work. He made whoever he was defending work. He found way, like, Luca can do the same. Like, it's not illegal to use effort consistently on the defensive side. And Tyrese Maxey plays even more minutes than Luca and has just as much responsibility in the offensive. And so when I see Maxi do that, to me, that's like, every guy that gets a pass for playing respectable defense for just weeks at a time, and that's what elevates them. I'm just kind of out on that. That's just, like, my new stance. I'm just out go watch a guy like Tyrese Mackie who could do the same, and he does it. You guys can do it, too.
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B
Yeah. And this. This analogy that I'm about to make, I totally understand. Luca Donches is going through, like, a divorce and, like, all that stuff. This is. And in no way am I, like, saying anything about Luca, like, dead serious. 100 in terms of who he is as a person. But the analogy that came to mind was just like a spouse, right, who is not a good spouse for the entire year, but then on Mother's Day, like, goes all out or like on the birthday, goes all out and buys a bunch of flowers, takes you out
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to dinner, looks great on Instagra. Instagram hubby, man.
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Exactly, the Instagram hubby. But in reality, the rest, 364 days out of the year, it's just like, what is this guy even doing here? You know? Like, he's. He's not. He's just sitting on the couch watching tv. Like, he hasn't cleaned up in two weeks.
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He.
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He doesn't. He doesn't put away his cups. He doesn't put this toilet seat down. I'm just describing myself now, but hey, when you do.
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When you do for two weeks, man, you get a lot of credit for it, right?
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Yeah, it's like stretch. I really, like, I really. I really appreciate you taking your cups out of the bathroom and putting them in the sink.
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I got. I got one of those. I got one of those this morning when, you know, wifey came home and she was like, oh, doing the baby's laundry. And I was like, mvp. You know,
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top four, top four husband, top four husband. That's enough to get me in the top four.
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The ladies. I'm, you know, of course, what else am I going to do? Of course I'm not just going to sit here and do nothing. No, come on now. You know, MVP performance.
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It's a bit. But it's about consistency. Like, I do the dishes every single night. Literally every single night. I make sure that the. The kitchen. Kitchen sink is clean, all the dishes are put away. Everything. I do that literally every single night. Like, that is the consistency that you want out of your. Out of your spouse. That is the consistency you want out of your players. If they just show up and fucking give a shit every single night and just, like, do a little bit of the dirty work. You know, just a little bit of dirty work. But do it every night.
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Exactly. And I think that's where Jalen and Luca. There's a difference. And for this type of season that Jalen had, yeah, it's unfortunate that he ends up sixth. And I think it's probably the more unfortunate size. It's probably going to mean he's going to end up on the second team, all NBA, instead of making that first team. We'll see. We've seen it flip before where I think a couple Years ago, Jalen Brunson finished fifth and Tatum finished sixth in an MVP voting. But Tatum got the first team and Brunson was on second team. So not, not necessarily written in stone, but kind of how I would look at it. So wanted to just address that kind of at the top because that news just came out. But for this episode, we're going to talk about Derrick White. And you know, Brad Stevens made a lot of statements at his press conference that alluded to just change needs to happen because we need to get better. And in order to get better, the Celtics have certain tools that they can use. We've got talked about Jalen Brown, we are going to talk about Jason Tatum eventually. We are talking about Derrick White tonight. And of course we're going to get to their mid level in the TPE they have. And TPE might even work its way into some of these trades that we're talking about now because you can get really creative if you really want to with that TPE and there's different ways that you can utilize it. So people are going to get mad that we're trading Derrick White. But at the same time, if Brad Stevens is talking about improving this team, there's only so many roads that you can go down and this is one of those options. So let me set it up real quick here, Greg, just with Derrick White. So his stats from last year, 77 games played, 16 and a half points, four and a half rebounds, 5.4 assists. Shot 39, 32, 90 from the field. Not his best shooting year. We know that. 2.4 stocks on the season and a pretty tough playoffs, especially games one through six. Pretty strong first half of game seven and then a little bit back to earth in the second half of that, of that one contract for Derrick White coming up this year, he is going to be making a cap hit of 30.3 million, 28.45 million base salary, 27, 28, 32.6 million base salary. And then two years from now, so three years on his contract left with a player option the final year at 34.8 million. Greg, I'm curious, when you sat down to do this exercise, what are some of the things that you were, without telling me, like any of your trades yet, like what were some of the things that you were like in order for me to trade Derek White, here are some of the things I got to try to figure out that would make sense to get back.
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Big thanks to our sponsor BetterHelp for partnering with us for this important conversation about mental health. This is Steve Smith here, former NFL wide receiver and host of the 89 show on YouTube.
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So having a counselor and working with BetterHelp, that gives you an opportunity to really start to unpack. But people don't understand when you unpack things, you also open up a box that you're not always sure what's inside. So I think that's why seeing a
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professional is extremely important.
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Yeah, I think you're spot on from a, from a value standpoint is like how do we turn one guy into two rotation guys that can play in a playoff series? Right. Like it has to be that. And I think when you look at what type of guys, it's ideally either size or athleticism that you're kind of looking for. I think one thing that did stick out to me as really difficult is this is going to have to be probably this trade in tandem with whatever you do with the mid level. Right. Like, so whether the mid level comes first or this comes first, like it has to kind of be in tandem because if you're getting back, you know, a wing and a big, now you're really short on ball handlers. Right. If you're not getting with one of those guys, can't do that. Right, right. And so depending on what you're getting back, it makes it really difficult. So I think for Derrick White to go out, it's gotta be a multi value trade or if it's one player, it's gotta be like enough picks that it makes sense because it gives you more options to be able to then go do something else. Right. Like, so it has to be multiple guys. And I think that's really the key with a Derrick White trade is how do you keep the Jays together but still give them enough on court support with just more depth, more and really for the most part, more top end depth that fits kind of the characteristics that, that you were talking about. So I think we're pretty aligned with that. So I'm gonna have you go first. Let's, let's jump into to some of the trades that we came up with and let's try to have a little fun talking about our guy Derek here.
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Okay. So I'm gonna go with the most realistic trade that, that I put together. I think three teams involved here, Celtics, Magic and Mavericks. Okay. Those are the three teams that are involved. So as I'm thinking through this, I'm like, all right, Celtics definitely need a center. They probably need a little bit more wing depth. So you can probably guess the two guys that I have coming to the Celtics based off of that. With the magic, I'm 100 thinking they need more shooting. Right. And they need more veteran, like proven veteran guys. And then with the Mavs, I think that they need, they just need a little bit more dynamic backcourt play. Right. So. And a little bit more shooting to replace the shooting that I have. Going to go into the Magic So I'm going to pull this trade up here and I'm going to read it as it, as it plays here. I'm going to read it out loud for, for those of you that are listening and those of you that are watching on YouTube. Okay, so in this trade, the Boston Celtics acquire Daniel Gafford in P.J. washington. The Orlando Magic acquired Garrick White and Klay Thompson, and the Dallas Mavericks acquire Sam Houser, Jalen Suggs, Tristan D. Silva in this year's Boston Celtics first round pick. Initial thoughts upon seeing that will.
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Yeah, that's pretty interesting. Let me just start from a Celtics perspective and then we can kind of go out from there. So essentially in that trade, Celtics are in the way. I always like to look at a three team traders. What are you sending out? What are you getting back regardless of which team splitting between? So in that it's Derrick White, it was Sam Houser in this year's first round pick for Daniel Gafford and PJ Washington. Essentially correct. Okay. So I have, I have at least one of them in one of a trade. In a trade that I have coming up later. I really like P.J. washington. I'm a pretty big P.J. washington fan. He feels to me, I mean, like he fits that archetype of like he's, he's a really solid. That's your fifth guy. That's freaking awesome. If he's your fourth or fifth guy, right? Like, he's, he's not qualified enough to be your third best guy, but he can certainly be, I think your fourth or fifth best guy and can have some moments where he really pops. And so I think for me he's the biggest prize in that I think Daniel Gafford is solid. He's. He just kind of fits because it's really hard to do. Like I mentioned on the last episode, right. With Jalen Brown improving, the front court's pretty tough, right? Like, like I think it's actually harder than people think it's going to be. And like, that's what makes, you know, signing Cada to some type of reasonable extension actually really, really important. But also knowing that you can't go run it back into the playoffs next year with Keda Garza. And even if you want to resign boots for 5 million, which I don't even. I think Boots should just be a done experiment. But if you want, even if you want to bring back for 5 million, like, that's not, that's not gonna do it when you get to the playoffs, like you need something else. Because. And I don't know if you heard. I think it was Ryan Smith, the. The Jazz owner who's on the Simmons podcast. I didn't. I didn't listen to all of it, but I got. But got through about half of it, maybe three quarters of the way. And he said something I think was really interesting. We talk a lot about, like, versatility, and while that's like, a kind of obvious thing these days, you have to be ready with versatility without knowing what your path is going to be. Right. Like, you have a general idea, but you got to be ready to kind of pivot at a moment's notice. And we found that out real quick when Embiid came back halfway through the series and we had no answer. We just had nothing. Right. And so that's where it's like Daniel Gafford. Yes. He's making. I think it was like 17 million or something like that. I can't remember exactly what it was. And it's kind of expensive. Ish. But it's a part of building out that. That bullpen. So as far as a return, I think you're accomplishing the goal of getting two for one, although it's kind of two for two because Sam Houser is a guy that plays in the rotation. I know you and I have been looking for less of him, but you already kind of factor in. Ugo and Shireman are going to get elevated minutes into that. So you're okay with losing that. Same with that, with that pick going out. So I think from the Celtics perspective, the. This is. And remind me, is PJ Washington on an expiring?
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No. He has four more years at about 90 million. Gafford has three more years at about 55 million.
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So that's the other piece of this. Brad loves get control under guys, because then you can have the ability to kind of be malleable. Right. So I. I think for the Celtics, that's a pretty solid trade. I think for the Mavericks, I don't really know what they want to do next year. That's probably the. The part to me where it's like them giving up Washington and Gafford. Lively's coming off an injury where he kind of an unknown. I. I have a trade that I did earlier, and I wanted to put PJ Washington, but I put Gafford in just from, like, what I think they would do, whereas they would be like, hey, let's at least see what we can do with a Kyrie Cooper flag. You know, PJ and Lively as kind of our Core four for a year, and then we kind of go from there and see what it is. I think that would be where the trade might get hung up, is them sending both of those guys out.
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So here, here's my. Here's my thoughts. Here's my thoughts on. Let me pause you there. So with the trade, right, I have Jalen Suggs going there because I feel like they don't have that guy to guard guards on their team. Right. So I think they, like, PJ Washington is a good defender, but he. He doesn't really guard point guards. So that's where I think Jalen Suggs comes into play. You have a backcourt of Kyrie Irving and Jalen Suggs. In that case, Cooper Flag does a lot of the same stuff defensively that PJ Washington does on the court already. So you're just like, you know, elevating Cooper into that defensive role. And then you're also in this trade, you're getting Tristan Da Silva, who I think is. Is nothing to sneeze at. I think he's a pretty good player. So in terms of future, like, kind of big wings, I think he actually could slide into some of those PJ minutes there. And then Sam Houser, we know that you can't target Sam Houser, Right. So you get some proven shooting. They tried the Klay Thompson thing for a couple of years. It didn't really work out. You get a little bit younger with Sam. You get a solid defender. He's also on a really good contract for the next couple of years. So that and the first round pick, which I think I threw in there just because I. I felt like the Mavs might be the team that was like, yeah, I don't know if I want to do this.
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Yeah.
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So that's why they're getting the Celtics first round pick in there. But the Celtics are also giving up the best player in this deal, I think, and giving up Derrick White. So there's a world in which that first round pick does not go up from the Celtics point.
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A
I think the Magic are all in on this deal. Basically, you're swapping out Derrick White for. For Jalen Suggs. It probably. This probably hangs on. Do the Mavericks feel like they've gotten enough? And that is probably contingent on how do they feel about Jalen Suggs? Like, because that contract, you could kind of, especially after this postseason, you could make the argument either way that it's a good contract or that it's a pretty bad contract. So I think depending on how you feel about Jalen Suggs probably swings the pendulum of. Of where this lands, but I like where you're at. I like where you're at. I'm gonna start with the one that I texted you about that I just felt so gross about even looking at because I think there's something there between these two teams and. And I don't know if they're gonna get to a common ground, but I've got the Celtics and the Timberwolves doing a deal here and the Timberwolves are loaded up front court. They've got three different guys. They've got to probably figure out that log jam and try to get more depth across the entire roster. Specifically, you know, divincendo's out next year. Mike Conley's old IO they should bring back. They probably will bring back. I assume even though he's. I don't know if he's a restricted free agent or just an unrestricted free agent, but likely it feels like that was a pretty good fit. They would probably bring him back. And so getting somebody else in their front court seems like that should be a priority for them. So Derrick White fits that need for them pretty well. Greg, I did a Derek White for Rudy Gobert swap and it works. It's. This is one of the. This is basically the only one for one trade that I did here because the Timberwolves just don't have a lot of picks. So there's not really much that you can can do with that. But I wanted to just talk it through because I think ideally I'd rather do it. If I'm going to trade with the Timberwolves, I'd rather it be Derek White for Nas Reed. As a Celtics fan, I just think when. And. And the Timberwolves would prefer it's Julius Randall and that's just not happening like in any world. Yeah, yeah, that's just not happening. So we just talked about not being huge Rudy Gobert fans, but being up until basically the very end like pretty impressed with what how he handled himself against Jokic and Wemby in back to back series. I think this at least merits a conversation, especially with Derrick White has three years, Rudy Gobert has two years. You know, you get a guy who's still at a defensive player of the year level defensively.
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Right.
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Like we can talk about some of the merits of it. Again, I think I'd rather be Nas Reed than Rudy Gobert, but Derek White, Rudy Gobert talk. Talk it through with me me.
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B
Here's the question. Would the Celtics be in the second round in the playoffs. If Derrick White was on the Timberwolves and Rudy Gobert was on the Celtics, right now, I think the answer is. Is unequivocally yes. Right. Because the whole reason we lost to the Sixers is because we couldn't guard Joel Embiid when he came back. And Rudy go Bears, he just showed. Could guard Nicola Jokic and did a pretty good job guarding Wemby. All things considering in that spurs series. And Derrick White had one of the worst playoff series of his career. Couldn't guard Tyrese Maxey. And we were clamoring for more Jordan Walsh. Right. Like, there's, there's a world in which if this trade had happened, coming into this playoffs, the Celtics are still playing basketball right now.
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A
Yeah, it feels gross. But. But I do think there's merits to it, right? Like, there is. And again, if you think about. We don't know what's going to happen with Giannis, but let's say he stays in the East. So if you need a rim protector against Embiid, against Giannis, you know, the Cabs and Pistons are going at it right now. Like, I mean, that's a little weird with how Pistons big situation is where B ball Paul's been their, their best big. But you got Mobley and Allen. Like, there's, there's, there's worlds in. Like, you are going to need Zubaches now in Indiana. Like, there are guys that like, are just going to be big, muscly guys that you need to kind of bang with. And defensively, I think Gobert would, would honestly, I don't want to say revolutionize, but it would really take this team to like, another level. Right. I think with, with Gobert, we haven't had a rim protector down there like that since probably Rob Williams. Even though Porzingis, you know, could do it, like, to a certain degree. Like, Rudy Gobert would be just a completely different animal in the, in the middle for the Celtics. The difference is going to be offensively, it's going to be a bit of a challenge. Like, he's. His hands are so bad. Stone hands.
- [27:28]
B
He's so bad on offense, man, it's. It's a great screen. Like, I know it's. It's like a running joke in NBA podcast circles that, like the Rudy Gobert screen, it's this thing. But like, he's one of the best screeners in basketball. He's freaking huge, man. The Gore screens that he was setting on Wemby the last, you know, four games of that series, he Had a couple really nice passes in the first. First series that they played. And like the fact that he guarded Jokic to the level. That he guarded Jokic. He made Jokic look human. And no one has made new Yokich look human in years. So it was really impressive stuff that I saw to go bear. Ultimately, I don't think I'm doing this deal just because I think one for one, who's a better player. I still think the better player is Derrick White, but in a world in which the NBA is getting bigger, the Celtics need to follow that trend. So, you know, I could be. If the deal happened, I could be talked into accepting, like, why and the. The philosophy behind it. I don't want to do this deal. The previous deal that I mentioned that I pitched, even that deal, I don't know that I want to do. Because a shout out to Mr. Grazer, EU2, he said, Gafford is worthless versus Wemby, so why bother? I think there's like, that idea is, it's valid, but how many people are actually going to be, you know, worthwhile versus Wemby?
- [28:43]
A
So he's only gonna get better. Like, it's going to be even more difficult a year or two when we theoretically could meet him in the finals.
- [28:50]
B
Exactly right. So you can't worry. Like, you have to be thinking about Wemby. But to your point, about what the Jazz owner said, like, you. You have to just be ready for any path that's thrown your way. And Wemby is just like the final boss, right? You're just gonna have to play him in the finals. You don't have to worry about playing him in the Eastern Conference. So you hope that another team in the west can take him out. And there's so much talent in the Western Conference. It's not like he's a guarantee to make the NBA Finals for the next five years. He's going to be in the running. But also health is a question with Wemby. So got to keep that in mind. To me, the more interesting thing is, like, how the Celtics keep up with the speed and athleticism and the youth around, like the spurs and the Thunder, like, what they have just in terms of, like the Pitbull defenders. They also have Chet. They also have Wemby. That's why they are two of the best defensive teams in the league. But when you think about the pit bulls that we have in the. The. The spurs defense that they run, funneling everything to Wemby. If the Celtics employ something similar with Jordan Walsh, Baylor Charman. If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H VAC and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. You may think you know McDonald's drinks,
- [30:25]
A
but you don't know them like this.
- [30:27]
B
From fruity refreshers like the Strawberry Watermelon
- [30:30]
A
Refresher and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with
- [30:33]
B
popping Boba to crafted sodas like the Sprite Berry Blast with berry flavored Sprite topped with cold foam. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire six? All new drinks are here. Try them all now at McDonald's.
- [30:49]
A
Refreshers contain caffeine. All right, I think we lost Greg. I think we're having some, some technical difficulties here. But yeah, I mean, I think in general, when you are looking at having, you know, that, that, that big in the middle, it just makes a whole lot of difference. Again, I think my question would be, when it comes to a Timberwolves Celtic swap, Nas Reed seems more appealing to me. I think the, the versatility offensively, you trade some, sacrifice some of that on defense, I think that's more appealing. But we'll see here. We got double Greg. We got one Greg.
- [31:22]
B
Dude. I was cooking. I was cooking. I'm so mad. Well, when did, when did I get cut off?
- [31:28]
A
You were talking about Charman and kind of the depth and then it, I, I waited here for. I, I gave it a healthy pause to see if it was just a delay and it was very clear that you were okay.
- [31:37]
B
Did I. Did I. Was I able to make my point that, like, with this, the way the spurs play their defense, like we can funnel everything to Rudy Gobert in a similar way?
- [31:46]
A
Yes, you.
- [31:47]
B
You were.
- [31:47]
A
I mean, that's essentially what I tried to, to say is like when you have that big, it kind of just changes everything. Right?
- [31:52]
B
Right.
- [31:53]
A
When you.
- [31:53]
B
Okay.
- [31:53]
A
When you can play your defense that way. So I'm with you. I don't think I'd do it. I am curious if, if this were Nas Reed instead, would you be more or less interested not saying whether you would do it or not, just more or less interested?
- [32:05]
B
Less interested.
- [32:07]
A
Okay. Interesting. I'd be more interested in Nazareth. I think there needs to be something Else, like next to it. But I think I like Nazareth.
- [32:13]
B
Nazride's not a center, man.
- [32:17]
A
I mean, what makes you say he's not a center? Like in what, he's in what, six foot nine? Yeah. I mean, this is six foot nine. I thought he was taller than that. I actually have a guy in here later that I was very surprised that was as tall as he is.
- [32:29]
B
No, he's six, nine. I was looking at all the draft, the draft comparisons that came out because the combine just came out. His measure. He was like six, nine and a quarter or something like that.
- [32:39]
A
Okay. He feels bigger to me. So I, I, that's, that's a fair point. He's six, nine and a half. That's kind of puts us at a similar position with the, you know, defensively, so that is true. Offensively is obviously a better fit. And so it's trying to split the difference. But yeah, I think the tip rules are an interesting trade partner because they have, you know.
- [32:56]
B
Right. And going back to the, the JB trade, right, like the JB for McDaniels and Nas Reed. I think that McDaniels is the guy that I want in that deal. Right. Nas Reed, I think, builds out that team really nicely with. You end up with Derrick White, Jason Tatum, Jada McDaniels, Nas Reed at the 4, not at the 5, and Keda at the 5. Like that's where I think that team could be an interesting team to watch. But Nas Reed is my starting center. A little bit concerned about that.
- [33:26]
A
But I, I do have my starting center. I mean, he'd be backing, he'd be a backup to. Well, yeah, then, then, yeah, I see what you're saying. Derek White for Nas Reed needs more in it. It just simply does. Okay, we can move from there. All right, let's go to your next trade.
- [33:36]
B
All right. This one is a, it's pretty galaxy brain, but I think it makes sense. Let me see if I remember my thought process as I pull it up here on the screen. Let me talk it through before I pull it up. Okay. In this deal, let me, let me try and give you what the Celtics are sending out. So in this deal, the Celtics send out Derrick White. They send out the 20, 27 first round pick as a pick swap. They send out this year's first round pick and they send out Sam Houser. Okay, so two first round picks, Derrick White and Sam Houser. The return in this deal, Alper and Shen Goon and Derrick Jones Jr. Let me show you how this works as a three team deal. Okay, so in this deal the Boston Celtics acquire Alperin Shangoon and Derek Jones Jr. The Houston Rockets acquire Derek White and Kawhi Leonard and the 2027 first round pick swap at the Celtics. The Clippers acquire Sam Houser, Jabari Smith Jr. Clint Capella first round pick from the Celtics this year, The Brooklyn Nets first round pick next year and Houston Rockets first round pick in 2027 as well. So I think there's got to be like a three team swap thing happening there. Initial thoughts? Who says no?
- [34:59]
A
A lot going on in that trade.
- [35:01]
B
Man, let me pull it back up for you.
- [35:03]
A
Yeah, pull it back up because this is the flow state that you are in right now. There's a, there's a lot going on here right now. And so let me, as always, let me start with the Celtics and let's talk about Sengun for a second this season. Has it left you feeling higher, lower or the same as you felt about Sengun going into the season?
- [35:24]
B
I've never been super high on him. My brother is like the biggest outper in Shengu Shingun guy in the world. So because of that I've always been watching his game. Like what does my brother see in him? He's obviously is a really talented offensive player. I think he would unlock a lot of stuff with, with the Jays in terms of what we can do with dribble handoffs and how we can do pick and roll with Shangun. Not the greatest shooter, can't defend at all. So that's the real question there. But also getting Derrick Jones Jr. Who I think is a really good player in this deal that allows you some more flexibility to potentially being okay not resigning Jordan Walsh or you know, if Ugo gets moved in a separate deal now you've got that like younger wing that can guard point guards who can guard up like Derek Jones Jr. Is an all world defender. So I like that return as well where you get the offensive center a little bit younger maybe can work his way into being a good, an average NBA center on defense. And then you get Derrick Jones Jr. Who you know, as we saw in the NBA finals like is a really good defender. So it's pretty interesting. How about you? Where are you at with Shangun?
- [36:35]
A
I mean I, I was kind of in your, your brother's camp of like really liked Shangoon, like to like I still think he's fine but it was one of those guys where like when you got little bits of it you're like oh there's something here like this is kind of nice. And then the more I watched of the Rockets the last year and a half or so as they were starting to kind of make their rise last year and I watched them a pretty decent amount this season, the defense and the shooting just started to become like it started to overtake the stuff I enjoy about Sengun. Like that's all I started to see was just any. And he made some pretty radically horrible decisions of when to shoot the ball too. Now I have to caveat that with some of that as a big part of the Rockets offense was such a mess once you removed Fred Van Vliet and they didn't play Reed shepherd and like they just couldn't get a shot. Some of this was a byproduct of just the Rockets offense being a mess. Right. So it was really difficult to kind of assess but the defensive side of it was always lacking. That was always kind of the part you had to overlook. But the offense was like really fun and it was almost felt Jokic light esque at times.
- [37:44]
B
Yeah.
- [37:44]
A
And maybe this was just a Rockets thing this year where that whole team just felt less fun. So I think it's. It's clouding my judgment of Sengun but ultimately I think it's an unbelievable value return. He's. I think he's a two time all star now.
- [37:56]
B
So that's, that's the thing. Like I think coming into the season the Celtics can't get this deal done. Right. Like Sengun's value is lower to the point where sending out Derrick White, Sam Houser and a couple of picks for, for Sengun. I think previously you were talking like Jalen Brown needs to be involved in that deal to get Shangun coming back. Right. So I do think that the, the. This deal accounts for that kind of baked in that Sengun's value has dropped a little bit. What's interesting to me is, is the Rockets point of view here, right. Getting Derrick White and Kawhi Leonard I think for, for Sengoon, Jabari Smith, Clint Capella in a first round pick like that's a steal for the Houston Rockets. This makes the Rockets really dangerous in the Western Conference because now they're going to a war with Derrick White, Amin Thompson, Kawhi Leonard, Kevin Durant, Stephen Adams, if he could ever stay healthy. But they can figure out a big right with reach out Shepard playing as your sixth man. So you know they're really punting. Yeah, yeah, they're punting on their, on their youthful core. But they're keeping Amen Thompson who is the gem of that, of that, of that core. Right. So that's pretty interesting there. And I think for the Clippers, like, Kawhi is an expiring contract. He just, you gotta move on from him at some point. You're getting three first round picks, another young guy in Jabari Smith and a shooter in Sam Houser that you could move for something else.
- [39:18]
A
I think for the Clippers, they're probably the easiest. Yes. In this scenario. Right. Like, I think just for them, it's like, okay, we're moving Kawhi and we're getting, you know, four assets and three picks back, and we're missing a bunch of picks. We're still trying to like, you know, get our assets back from the okc, the famous OKC deal. So I, I think for them, that probably makes the most sense. I think for the Rockets, it becomes a question of just like, to your point, like, are you ready to abandon almost a mini version of the Warriors 2 timeline idea? Right. Like, are you ready to abandon that and just like give it. Because they still have Fred Van Vliet as well on a player option.
- [39:52]
B
True.
- [39:52]
A
So. So you have Fred Van Vliet back there, so now you have like a top seven eight that you're like, again, it's gonna hinge on Kawhi's health to a certain degree. And obviously Kevin Durant's older and so you have a lot of ifs in the, in the scenario, but you probably have a higher ceiling for the Celtics. Again, I think the value would probably be there for this with Sengun. And it's always been interesting to think about guys like Shangun. And I feel like when Sabonis was kind of in the rumor mill a couple years back, it's. We've never had a center that's kind of worked as that hub and see the Jays play off it. So this goes back to something you said last time where it's like you're. You're trying to imagine moving to a new neighborhood that's a real new neighborhood that we've never had anything even close to compare to right there. There's no Zillow comparison for. Well, it's sort of like what Rob Williams did or what Al Horford's done. Like, we don't have a guy that's done the dribble handoff game, the, you know, catch the ball at the center, you know, at the free throw line, or operate from the top of the three point line and then be able to have the Jays move off of that And I think that becomes the question of does Shengoon or, or does Missoula adjust? Because you're going to have to adjust some of your philosophy to make Sengu and work, and you're keeping the Jays. And that fit is. Is. I think it could work, but we've seen Missoula be pretty, pretty stubborn. So I think that's my biggest question
- [41:16]
B
mark in that deal. Your starting lineup is now Richard Derrick Jones Jr. Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum, and Alper and Shangon. Right. Like, is that enough to compete with the best teams in the league? Probably not.
- [41:31]
A
Yeah. I mean, it's. Yeah. Because. Because defensively, even though you're adding Derek Jones Jr. Is a really good defender. Again, this goes back to what we were talking about with the whole Gobert fake trade. Right? Like, look at all the defenses that are going to be left here in the finals, in the conference finals. Like, you're looking at the. The defense is anchored by Hartenstein and Holmgren, by Wemby, by, you know, even Mitchell Robinson, even though he plays 15, 20 minutes like he's a key part of the Knicks in their, in their run. The Timberwolves setup, like, it's going to be really tough to, you know, to. To get by with Changu and I think on defense, but value wise, I, I think it's there. I think that's an interesting one. I think something with the Rockets is there, too. So I don't know. It really comes down to how the Rockets value their young guys. And you said something that I'm. I've been thinking of that I, I mentioned on the last podcast. So, like, amen Thompson is the, you know, jewel of their young core. But I said this last time, and I still think it, which is why I think there could be a way to think that you need to move opposite Ahmed Thompson now. Only because if you give Ahmed Thompson. I'm watching Pistons right now, both him and his brother are great. I think they're so much fun to watch. I think both of those guys, if you give them 30, 40 million as like max or just under max level guys, those could absolutely destroy your roster. And I, and I really, I'm curious, what do you think? Amen Thompson, who's going to be on an expiring deal, so you got to pay him either this off season or you're going to bring them to restricted free agency. Like, I agree with you, there's a lot of potential there. What's kind of like your value of Ahmed Thompson?
- [43:17]
B
I just think anytime you have those guys that aren't clear cut like top tier superstars in the league that can be the hub of your offense. It makes no sense coming off their rookie deal to offer them extension, let them go to restricted free agency. You know, like at worst case scenario, you just have to match it, right? So if someone does decide that they're going to give them the max or whatever, you could just match it. So I think that if Amin Thompson got the max before restricted free agency, I think that would be a mistake because he's, he's a really good. No, he's, he's a top, top five defender in the NBA already, right? It's just like, is that offensive game going to merit the extra $15,000 that you're paying between like Herb, Herb Jones, right? Like he's making $15 million a year. Okay, He's a great defender, can't play offense at all. Amen. Thompson is a better defender than Herb Jones is, Is a better offensive player than Herb Jones is. But is he double the money that Herb Jones is? I don't know. Like, probably. But I, I think you can just let them go to restricted free agency and figure it out then.
- [44:27]
A
I agree with you. Most people don't do that, but I agree with you. I think this is kind of one of those perfect cases of let's see what the market dictates as what to what you're actually worth. But with that being said, if the Rockets are scared to do that, if there's kind of an impasse of, listen, we ain't giving you 35 million until you can show us you hit a jump shot. Like here's 20 million, here's 25 million, you know, here's whatever that we think you're worth. And if there's that, you know, they're just not going to agree on it. This is a guy that I think the Celtics should definitely. I mean many teams would be calling to take a chance on it. So I, this is probably a pie in the sky deal, but Derek White, a 2030 unprotected pick from the Celtics for Amen Thompson. And then we eat the Dorian Finney Smith contract. Dorian Finney Smith did not work out for the Rockets at all. Did not look like the DFS that we saw in Dallas. That was so, you know, it was a huge part of their turnaround, their finals run. And he's still got, you know, 13.3 in two years. So he's, he's got a pretty sizable amount. So that's part of the tax for getting the chance to touch, kind of see what Amen can bring. But I think. Because I. I think there should be kind of a question of, you know, a tough negotiation, that there's at least potential for it. And then this is splitting the difference on what we just talked about with the Rockets of like, okay, we have to make a decision on Jabari, Amen and Sengu. This is kind of like, you know, and you can throw read in there, too. All four of these guys are like our young core. That and even Tyrese and you can put in who's in restricted free age, like, between these guys. What are we doing if we move forward? We just saw what this looks like. We doesn't make sense to have all five of these guys. So how do we keep three and maybe five, turn two into something or keep four and turn one and, like, can we turn one into two, whatever it might be? And so in this scenario, you're keeping the other guys. Amen turns into Derek, and you still have the sengun. You have Fred Van Vliet coming back. You still. Maybe you keep Tari Eason, you have Jabari Smith. Like, you just keep more. More depth together, and you give yourself some more shooting, some more stability, even though you're losing some athleticism. That would be kind of my pitch for it. Again, I think probably because of the potential of Amen Thompson. This is probably a pretty no for the Rockets or, like, give us another pick or something like that. But, yeah, yeah, it could be more. I. I just think that the Amen Thompson contract negotiations are something that could. Could cripple a team. I. I really do think. I think the. The. The potential is very tantalizing, but if he doesn't hit it and, you know, he's. He's the guy that he is now, like, it's. And you can't play him at the end of games. That's. That's real trouble for a franchise. Yeah. So.
- [46:57]
B
No, 100%. But then, like, you see his brother stripping Donovan Mitchell right before overtime in that. In that game, like, completely shutting down Donovan Mitchell in. In these matchups where we've never had anyone that can guard Donovan Mitchell. So, like, I'm assuming if Assar can do it, then I'm on. Amen can do it too.
- [47:13]
A
Which, by the way, Cavs up 51, 35, four left in the. In the second quarter right now.
- [47:19]
B
Okay, so I think, yeah, with that deal, you know, I think you probably get to throw Ugo in there as well. So Derek White and Ugo for Amen. And then that 20, 30 unprotected pick, maybe even another pick. But, you know, I love the idea. I think getting, getting a top nine, you know, top 01% of athletes in the world on your team. I sign me up for that.
- [47:42]
A
I think just real quick, much like the Timberwolves, the Rockets are a team, that the conversations just make sense around this. Right? Like, regardless of what, what it could be, it makes sense. All right, let's try to do one more each year and then. Because I. We've already gone 45 minutes, so let's, let's try to do one more each year.
- [47:57]
B
I'll try because there's no way that a team does this. But the Celtics in this deal acquire Giannis Antetokounmpo and shooting guard Micah Peavey from, I believe, the Pelicans. I think.
- [48:10]
A
I have no idea who that that is, but continue.
- [48:12]
B
Me neither. The Celtics send out in this deal Peyton Pritchard, Luca Garza, Derrick White, Sam Houser and 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 first round picks.
- [48:26]
A
So this is between the Celtics, the Bucks and the Magic and the Pelicans.
- [48:31]
B
So let me pull up the full deal for you.
- [48:33]
A
Let's take a look here. So Celtics end up with Giannis and a makeup player in 2k. Bucks get Pritchard, Garza, Zion and a slew of picks. Magic get Derrick White and Sam Hauser. Pelicans get Jalen Suggs. I mean, so for the Celtics, Peyton, Luca, Derek, Sam, and two picks, three picks, four, four, five, six, five picks going out. But you leave yourself with Giannis, the Jays, Keda. So you have no point guards basically on the Celtics. That's where I guess like the mid level comes in. And again, this is something that you would have to do. I think with any Derrick White trade scenario, it's going to end up being, you know, cool. We brought in a wing, brought the big. Now we need another ball handle. You got to go try to use your mid level or your trade player exception, whatever to go do that. I mean, this gets you Yanis without giving up the Jays, which I think think is likely a pipe dream. But this was my, this was my
- [49:37]
B
best, the best I could do. I was trying to find that like young piece that we could figure out from another team that would entice them, which is Zion. Right. You get a starting point guard and Peyton Pritchard and then you get five first round picks. There are going to be better offers out there for Giannis. This was the best offer I could put forward for the Celtics without giving up the Jays to get Gianna sent to Decompo.
- [50:02]
A
I didn't even explore this because I was just like, I don't see a world in which Giannis is coming back here. The Bucks are like, we did a trade with the Celtics again and we didn't get, you know, the right value for it. Like just, I just, I just don't see that happening. So. For the Celtics, yeah, I mean, I think you would take that chance, right? Well, actually, let me back that up. Brad is, is very reluctant, I think, to give, to not have a lot of flexibility into the future. And that would pretty much hammer you as like a three year window of. Yes, okay.
- [50:34]
B
Yes and no. Because the Jays are so young. You can always just move them if like it truly doesn't work out. Like, you can move, like those are three guys that are going to have trade value. So you can always restock, you can replenish. So that, that's my thing. It's like you, you try this for two years and then if it doesn't work and because, you know, players are going to sign up to go play on that team, so you're going to be able to get the bargain basement guys and then. Yeah, but I mean, the Bucks say no, right? That's the team that says no in this field. That's the team you need to say yes. But that was my best. Let's get Giannis to Boston without giving up the Jays deal I could come up with.
- [51:09]
A
Yeah, well, it's better than I saw one this morning, I think, where it was White Hauser and like two Celtics picks for Giannis. I was like, what are we doing? How high are you guys? When you come on the Internet, like, why are the Bucks saying yes to this? This out of like at all? Why are they even entertaining? So, yeah, I mean, I, it would be interesting. I would love to, to get Brad's thoughts on like, because here's the thing. So actually I thought about this for the, for the Magic last year and I think you're thinking on it makes more sense for the Celtics when they traded so many picks for Bane. I was like, I kind of like this because if it doesn't work, then you just flip Paolo or Franz into like future picks and then that becomes, hey, we still have four picks. They just belong, belong to the Pelicans now or they're from the Pelicans or, you know, whatever. And you know, Paulo and friends don't have the track record that the Jays have where the Jays have a more established record to be like okay, we did this for a year with us as like quote, unquote, the new big three, and this was a disaster. It didn't, it didn't flow together. Let's get out. Let's get out.
- [52:08]
B
Three weeks into the season and now it's just the Jays with no depth around them.
- [52:12]
A
Yeah, exactly. Or if they just don't fit and it's like, okay, okay, we're gonna move Jalen and we're gonna get three pieces for Jalen and a couple draft picks or whatever. You know, you start to unload the clip on that. So, yeah, I mean, Celtics say yes, Bucks say no. I think that's, that's just kind of where. Where that deal falls at. Let me see here. I've got two different ones that I could do here. Let's. Let's do this one because I'm curious to know what you think was. I got a three team deal that I, I did here. I think the Celtics might need another pick in this. But I'll let you just. I'll just give it to you the way it is, then you tell me. Okay, what's missing here? So we got the Celtics, the Hornets and the Pelicans. So for the Celtics, we've got Grant Williams and Herb Jones coming to the Celtics.
- [52:52]
B
Okay.
- [52:53]
A
Derrick White is going to the Hornets, and then we've got Josh Green and Charlotte's giving them two picks to compensate for Herb. For Herb Jones going out. What's missing in that deal?
- [53:06]
B
Celtics aren't getting enough.
- [53:08]
A
Yeah, that's kind of what I'm. That, that. That's what I think as well, too. I don't know if it's future picks, but, you know, it's again, back to the original value statement that we had. Like, Grant had a pretty solid end of the year for the Hornets. We've seen Grant, you know, with this Celtics team. He doesn't solve everything. And you know, people are going to have. People are going to have certainly many, many opinions.
- [53:26]
B
Dude. How confused would everybody in Boston be about the H in Ugo and the H and Herb and Herb and Ugo? I wouldn't be able to do it. Like I get Herb Jones off any. Off the Celtics roster because I don't
- [53:41]
A
want that confusion urban Ugo. But. But I think the Herb Jones part of this, which I just did twice, two different ways. I think he's some. He's a guy that in. If there's going to be three way deals, I don't know if there's a direct deal. Like that's A guy that, that type of guy we've come across a couple times in these mock trades. I think he's a player type that it's like younger, you know, more length, athleticism. Like, that's the type of guy that we want in this deal. Know it's not enough just him, but like that type of, of player is I think someone. Yeah, there we go. Comment in the chat, I just threw up hearing Grant coming back. I, I kind of figured that would happen as well too. And, and that that's got to be built into the. Not enough coming back to the Celtics here. But again, Herb Jones would be the main guy that you're kind of thinking about in this dude.
- [54:31]
B
Herb Jones was like people were calling him the best perimeter defender in the league two years ago, right? So you, you pair that with Ugo and with Jordan Walsh, like, Jesus Christ. We would have arguably the best defenders in, on the perimeter in the league.
- [54:47]
A
Yeah, him, Ugo, Tatum, Brown, you know, Shireman, solid like Jordan Walsh when he comes in, like, that's, that's good. That's a really solid perimeter defense that you have right there. And then you still would have the mid level and the TPE to work with. So, you know, it's. I think another comment down here. Grant has, has more heart and fight than Tatum.
- [55:10]
B
Well, here, here's my question, Mr. Grazer, next Sunday, will you be here for the Jason Tatum trade episode? Because that's what's happening next Sunday. And the great thing about Jason Tatum trades is you pretty much open the door to like everybody in the NBA because he's so goddamn good. So next Sunday, Jason Tatum trade episode tune in.
- [55:32]
A
And then midweek, we are going to start to look at the mid level, which would be nice because nobody can get mad at us for people they don't want, like, nobody. We're not trading Grant Williams back. We're not sending Derek White out. We're not sending Jalen Brown anywhere. We're not going to send Jason Tatum anywhere. These are just guys that are going to be on the market. So we're going to do a podcast middle of the week. We'll probably check in on the conference finals, see where they're at. And yeah, we'll take a look at the mid level guys that are going to be on the market. I think that's going to be a really important spot for the Celtics because I think you said at the beginning of the podcast, Greg, if the Celtics kind of just, even if they basically stay put and just use the TPE and the mid level if they use it correctly. All's good, right? Like, like this roster has flaws but it's not, it doesn't need a full tear down rebuild. We can take a breath after. It sucks being eliminated in the first round and there's absolutely a path forward with the TPE and the mid level doing all the work that we need done to get back into contention and not having us do mock trade podcasts in May and we're actually waiting for game results. Yeah, it's only May, Greg May. It's only May. So with that we're gonna wrap this the up because it's May 17th. We've got more of these to burn out. But we appreciate you guys rocking with us here. This has been the Derek White mock trade podcast. We got the mid level exception podcast coming later this week and then next Sunday we're we're just ripping the core baby band like a band aid right off. Jason Tatum trades coming at you hot and heavy. We'll see you guys later in the week. Appreciate y'. All. Peace. You.
- [57:20]
B
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