The Celtics Are Over .500, But Anfernee Simons Clearly Does Not Fit

Summary

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Green With Envy: A Boston Celtics Podcast

Episode: The Celtics Are Over .500, But Anfernee Simons Clearly Does Not Fit
Date: November 19, 2025
Hosts: Will (Mike Gorman), Greg Manakis
Theme: Assessing the Celtics’ above-.500 record, dissecting the Anfernee Simons fit, trade hypotheticals, rotation outlook, and state of the Eastern Conference.

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Episode Overview

This post-game episode finds Will and Greg celebratory yet critical of the Celtics’ recent win over the Brooklyn Nets—a 113-99 victory that puts Boston above .500 for the first time this season. The hosts dive into what’s fueling the team’s momentum, the persistent Anfernee Simons puzzle, Joe Mazzulla’s rotation experiments, and trade hypotheticals. The show mixes sharp analysis, fandom, and humor throughout as the duo ruminates on Boston’s hunt for a stable playoff position and potential roster upgrades.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Celtics Over .500: Reasons for Momentum

• Will sets the stage by acknowledging the "not the prettiest win in the world, but a win nonetheless" (01:01).

• Greg reflects on early-season skepticism:
  “There was a moment early in the season where I didn’t know that we’d ever get [over .500]… it’s nice. We have to win the games against the Nets and against crappy teams.” (02:19)

• Key: Winning these “must-have” games and not dropping games to weaker opponents (03:00).

2. Joe Mazzulla’s Rotational Adjustments

• Will observes a carousel approach to lineups:
  “It felt like [Joe] just couldn’t find a five that he liked… everyone else, on a night like this… you just simply can’t lose that game.” (03:50)
• Greg notes the deep bench: "He played 11 guys tonight... 10 of those 11 guys played over 11 minutes" (05:22).
• Ugo and Boucher are out of the rotation; Ugo’s up-and-down rookie treatment discussed (05:22).

3. Jalen Brown’s Role & Third Quarter Heroics

• Jalen had a slow, limited first half (10 mins) due to illness and lackluster play, but Pritchard and Simons filled in offensively (05:45).
• Will: "Ultimately Jaylen had to come out and put up 17 points in the third quarter for this to turn into a Celtics win." (07:05)

4. The Anfernee Simons Conundrum

• Simons: Bright first half, invisible in second; overall, not the fit hoped for.
  • “There’s issues with the way Simons plays, the way Mazzulla utilizes him… outside of that first half, he felt invisible.” (06:16)
• Greg: "He’s not a two-way player. That’s the biggest thing with him… if he’s not super hot, then Joe’s like, 'I don’t really know why I should play this guy.'" (07:42)
• Notable stat: Five assists, decent first half, but only 12 mins in the previous game (Clippers), near-zero impact (08:03).

5. Trade Talk — Moving Simons, Targeting Upgrades

a. Simons-for-Terance Mann Proposal (Michael Pina, The Ringer)

• Greg floats scenario: "Save $10M, get under the first apron" (08:47).
• Will: Mixed feelings. Remembers Mann’s impact with the Clippers, but unimpressed seeing him on Brooklyn. “In theory, I like him… but he’d be kind of redundant here” (09:33).

b. Simons-as-Salary Fodder for a Center

• Will proposes swings for a bigger fish using Simons’ contract:

  • Ivica Zubac (Clippers): “Pie-in-the-sky idea… would solve a lot of problems. I’d risk decent draft equity if we could get it done.” (14:36)
  • Outlined specifics: Celtics send Simons, Hauser, two unprotected firsts for Zubac and Bogdanovic (14:51).
  • Clippers might reject, but a sell-off could make it feasible.

• Other potential targets:

  • Day'Ron Sharpe (Nets): A “buy-low” scenario. “He stuck out tonight—would look quality next to Nemius Kaeda” (19:03, 20:13).
  • Daniel Gafford (Mavs): More complicated, but worth exploring (16:52).

6. Young Players, Development, and Rotational Power Rankings

• Will and Greg discuss rookie minutes and Mazzulla’s willingness to shuffle young wings:
  • “Every two weeks, we might as well start power ranking these three guys [Ugo, Minot, Walsh].” (22:50)
  • Shireman’s audition: Meh. “It looks funky in a way that’s not appealing… it feels sloppy” (23:10, 23:52).
• Notable: Jordan Walsh’s development and mentorship under Jalen Brown (26:36), learning defensive assignments, and adjusting to different matchups (“Tonight didn’t really… little bit of foul trouble, so he doesn’t really play as much”—28:16).

7. Eastern Conference Standings & State of Competition

• Standings rundown (33:58)

  • The Pistons lead at 13-2, then Cavs, Raptors, Knicks, Sixers, and Hawks round out top six.
  • Celtics sit 9th at 8-7.
  • Bucks (without Giannis) in freefall (35:02).
  • Wembanyama and Giannis injuries: Both teams treading water (35:58).

• Playoff landscape:

  • “If Tatum comes back and the Celtics are hanging around the six seed, there’s no reason why the Celtics can’t, with a healthy Jason Tatum and a nice Anthony Simons trade, get up into that four/five.” (37:53)
  • Greg: Only Pistons, Cavs, Knicks are “definitively better than the Celtics” (37:53).

8. Jaylen Brown’s All-Star-Level Play

• Will and Greg heap praise:
  • Greg: “Jaylen Brown has been unfucking believable this year… it all started when Joe Mazzulla was just like, ‘Oh, we’re just gonna... make you do all the things you do good and just make you do them great.’” (41:42)
  • Will: “It’s up into the right. That’s where it’s going. The season could be really, really depressing if it was going the other way, but Jaylen Brown has been awesome.” (42:35)
  • On critics who don’t watch closely:
    Greg: “How many of those people are actually watching the Celtics? …he was the whole reason the Celtics won the game.” (43:14)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Not the prettiest win in the world, but a win nonetheless.” – Will (01:01)
• “He’s not a two-way player. That’s the biggest thing with [Simons]…” – Greg (07:42)
• “If he’s not super hot, then Joe’s like, ‘I don’t really know why I should play this guy.’” – Greg (07:42)
• “Pie-in-the-sky idea… [Zubac] would solve a lot of problems. I’d risk decent draft equity if we could get it done.” – Will (14:36)
• “Every two weeks, we might as well start power ranking these three guys…” – Will (22:50)
• “Jaylen Brown has been unfucking believable this year.” – Greg (41:42)
• “It’s up into the right. That’s where it’s going.” – Will on Jaylen’s value (42:35)
• “Only the Pistons, Cavs, and Knicks are definitively better than the Celtics.” – Greg (37:53)
• On the Eastern Conference: “Just a bunch of blah…” (37:53)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Win over Brooklyn / Celtics above .500 discussion: 01:01 – 03:50
• Joe Mazzulla & Rotations: 03:50 – 05:45
• Jaylen Brown’s performance and illness context: 05:45 – 06:16
• Dissecting Anfernee Simons’ fit: 06:16 – 08:49
• Trade ideas involving Simons: 08:49 – 17:35
• Breakdown of potential center targets: 14:36 – 21:14
• Power ranking the wing rotation (Walsh, Minot, Ugo): 22:50 – 25:57
• Walsh’s growth and Jalen mentorship: 26:36 – 28:20
• Eastern Conference Standings rundown: 33:58 – 37:53
• Praise for Jaylen Brown & closing thoughts: 41:42 – 43:14

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Episode Tone

Casual, playful, deeply knowledgeable—fans talking to fans, poking fun at themselves, all while deploying sharp basketball analysis. The hosts’ banter and realism add personality: there’s skepticism, optimism, and a healthy sense of Celtics fatalism.

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Final Thoughts

This episode captures Celtic fans’ cautious optimism. Boston climbs above .500—barely—but glaring roster construction issues persist. Trade talk is realistic, not speculative, as the hosts look for tangible ways to build around Jaylen’s stellar play and prepare to reintegrate Tatum. Mazzulla’s willingness to tinker, the fascinating young-wing “power rankings,” and the dynamic standings in the East all point toward a Celtics team—and fanbase—striving to make sense of a season where opportunity is still up for grabs.

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Transcript

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Mike Gorman]

This is Mike Gorman and you're listening to Green with Envy with Will and Greg. All right, everybody. Not the prettiest win in the world, but a win nonetheless. Celtics 113 to 99 over the Brooklyn Nets. This is a Green with Envy live post game. We are live on YouTube, live on Twitter. You, you guys know the deal. Let's lock in. Welcome into another edition of Green with Envy. This is a live post game game edition of Green with envy. Celtics a 113 to 99 winner over the Brooklyn Nets. As always, this is what will, we're checking in. How you doing? How you live it? Joining me as he does each and every time, my best friend, co host and the coach of our podcast, the one and only Greg Manakis. Greg, dare I say the Boston Celtics have a little bit of momentum. 8 and 7 over.500 for the first time this season.

[Greg Manakis]

Yeah, they definitely have momentum, man, and it's nice to be above.500. There was a moment early in the season where I didn't know that we'd ever get there. There's also mosquito flying around my room and I just got him. Yeah, it's, it's nice. We have to win the games against the Nets and against shitty teams. Like early in this game where I was like, are we really not as even as good as like beating the Nets by double digits? And then we figured out how to be better basketball players than we were in the first half. So it was Nice to see.

[Mike Gorman]

Yeah, and you said it exactly. You know, for this team to be whatever they're going to be, whatever you judge as this being a successful season, these are the games you can't lose. This isn't a back to back. You've had, you know, you've had days off. You've, you're, you should be plenty rested despite playing, you know, on Sunday. You had three days before that. This is nothing out of the ordinary. You got two more days off and you're going to play this Nets team again. Like, these are the games you have to win. Right. There's no excuse to lose these games. And to your point, it was, it was interesting watching this game. And we'll talk a little bit about that Celtics Clippers game as well here in a bit. We can kind of work it into the discussion as part of, part of both these games. We haven't given our thoughts on that, but you're right, it felt a little sluggish early. And you know, the Celtics ended up with 19 turnovers tonight. Right. Like, that's big. Been the, the one mainstay. Yeah, it's been the mainstay that, that's been their, their superpower this year that has kept them, that's been their elite statistic. Right. That they've been able to produce is that they don't turn the ball over. Tonight they did quite a bit. And so it kept Brooklyn kind of hanging around. And I thought, Greg, I thought this game was really funny from a Joe Missoula perspective because it felt like he just couldn't find a five that he liked. Like there was not a lineup that he liked tonight. You know, if your name wasn't Peyton Pritchard, Derrick White or Jaylen Brown, it was just kind of a, a carousel. Right. Of, of who's else is going to be out there? Because those three guys he was going to trust no matter what. And that's going to be the way it is throughout the entire season, as it should be. And everyone else on a night like this, like to the point that we're, we're leading with here, you just simply can't lose that game. Joe wasn't going to let that happen. He was going to find somebody that was going to work that was going to impact this game. And it took a while to find different combinations. But I did think it was really funny watching Joe just continuously not being thrilled with the five that were on the court.

[Greg Manakis]

Yeah, he played 11 guys tonight. So guys who got run tonight. Starting lineup tonight was Brown, Walsh Kada, White and Pritchard. That's been the starting lineup for the past, I think, five games now at this point. Simons had 26 minutes good in the first half off the bench. Garza 20 minutes. Hauser 22 minutes. Minot, who played well, 19 minutes. Shireman got 13 minutes, and the X Men got off the bench for five. So 11, 11 guys deep. No Ugo, no Boucher in this game. Ugo seemingly has fallen out of the rotation over the last couple of games. But, yeah, you know, we'll.

[Mike Gorman]

The use of Ugo has been a bit strange throughout the season, right? It's been. Been a little bit. Bit up and down. Again, he is only 19, so maybe that's a part of it. But, you know, playing 11 guys, like the, the part that sticks out to me, Greg, is 10 of those 11 guys played over 11 minutes in this game. Like that. Like, it wasn't just that guys played. The guys played pretty, pretty significant stretches of time.

[Greg Manakis]

And the craziest thing was Jalen played 10 minutes in the first half and there was, you know, he said after the game on Sunday that he was sick. And at first I was like, is this a product of him being sick? But he also, like, wasn't playing that well in the first half, and Pritchard and Simons were both playing well, right? So if Pritchard and Simons, or at least scoring the ball well. So if those two guys are scoring the ball well, then maybe you can just kind of say, all right, Jalen, you can chill this half because I do have Josh, Mina, Jordan Walsh to play defense.

[Mike Gorman]

And let's talk about Anthony Simons. Just, Just for a minute. My. My favorite and least topic to. To talk about this season. And you're like, these are the games where, you know, especially in that first half. And like you said, Anthony Simons played, played, played well enough in that first half scoring did all of his. Basically his entire stat sheet is from the first half, right? Like, basically felt pretty invisible in the second half. And it feels like, listen, there's issues with, I think the way Simons plays, the way that Missoula utilizes him, like, all around. The experience is just very frustrating, I feel. But these are the type of games, like, you think about the best scoring game he's had this year outside of that burst from the. The. In the Magic for first half against the Magic was that Pelicans game, right? And it's. It's the Wizards, it's the Nets, it's the, you know, when we play the Pacers like, these are the teams that, it's like, hey, Simons, can you please help give Jaylen like a night where he doesn't have to put on a cape? You know, like, and that's what you were kind of waiting for tonight. And you know, to a degree in the first half he at least helped, you know, keep the, I think the Celtics were up by one at the half. Like, certainly Simons contributed to that. But ultimately Jaylen had to come out and, and put up 17 points in the third quarter for this to turn into a Celtics win. And so it's one of those games where it's like, you know, based on what the expectation was of Anthony Simons. I wish this was a game where I could feel like, hey, go get us 20 to 25. Jalen can kind of just coast a little bit. And it just hasn't been that way so far.

[Greg Manakis]

I, he's not a two way player. That's the biggest thing with him. Like, Joe took him out at the beginning of the fourth quarter and it was just because he's, he's not going to provide anything on the defensive side of the ball. So if he's not super hot, then Joe's like, I don't really know why I should play this guy. You know, he doesn't do much.

[Mike Gorman]

He doesn't do much. He's not scoring.

[Greg Manakis]

That's why.

[Mike Gorman]

He did have five assists tonight, though.

[Greg Manakis]

Yeah, no, he played, he played well tonight in the first half. He only had 12 minutes against the Clippers. Right.

[Mike Gorman]

So zero goose egg in that one. Yeah, yeah.

[Greg Manakis]

Tough, tough game for Simons against the Clippers. Comes back. I thought he actually played pretty well in the first half. He's finally figured out that half court trap and how to hit the short roll. So we can kind of put that to bed for now. He's, he's figured that little pocket pass out, which is nice. And he, you know, he, he got hot for a stretch and if he can have, you know, you keep thinking about when this team is whole and when Jason Tatum comes back, if he can have a six minute stretch in one of the two halves where he provides a boost of scoring, like, I'm, I'd be okay with that. I'm not okay with him making $25 million a year.

[Mike Gorman]

Yeah.

[Greg Manakis]

But like for right now, sure. One thing I, I, I was interested in Will and I wanted to get your opinion on this. So, yeah, our guy Michael Pina, who, who won an award today, I, I want to look that up. What award? He actually won he won a, a writer's award today. But he said in his last article on the ringer when he was talking about the Celtics, that he thinks the trade that makes the most sense actually involves the Brooklyn Nets. He thinks that it should be an Anthony Simons for Terence man. Straight up trade. Right where the Celtics end up saving. I think it's like over $10 million. And they get under the, under the first apron. I think that's, that's how. What were your thoughts on Terence Man? What would your thoughts be on a deal like that?

[Mike Gorman]

So tonight, not super impressed with Terence Man, I thought, you know, just kind of blah. Just, just. Just not much really for me. But I was thinking during the game, Terence man has been a guy in the past that would have qualified as a my guy type of guy. Like one of those guys that I feel like has really specifically, you know, during some of those, those Clippers runs when it was unexpected, made some real impactful moments on that team that went to the Western Conference finals, on some of these other playoff runs they had, like, Terence Mann was a guy that was able to provide a role, right. Like, like and be able to, to make an impact. I think right now with this Brooklyn team. I mean, this is just about a young team where him, Claxton and Porter are kind of the old heads. Like, Terrence Man's the oldest guy on this team. He's 29 years old, right. Like, they're, they're definitely playing out of position as far as, like, where they should be within a good team. And so it's. For me, it was kind of hard to judge who Terrence Mann is based off what he's doing with the Nets because he's just not going to be doing that with, with, you know, if he was on the Celtics or on a good team. But I, I didn't think. I didn't find him very impressive. I will say that, like, I didn't find anything that really stand out. But I have liked him in the past, so I like the idea in theory. Right.

[Greg Manakis]

And Pina's idea was, is purely salary. He's not saying like, oh, Terrence man is going to be a difference maker for the Celtics. He's pretty much going to be redundant with Hugo Gonzalez and, and all the guys that we've been talking about playing that role, the Jordan Walshes and the Josh Minus.

[Mike Gorman]

Right.

[Greg Manakis]

So there's really not that much space for him. If you're looking at him to your.

[Mike Gorman]

To your point of, of Simons not getting run in the, you know, towards the end of the game because Joe is just like, all right, last 10 minutes.

[Greg Manakis]

Is he a two way guy or is he just a defensive player?

[Mike Gorman]

Yeah, I mean that's, that's fair. You're right. That's. I mean, I think I would say, I would say you can put the ball on the deck a little bit more than, you know, some of the guys that are just one sided defensively. Although Josh Minot hit some shots tonight. Again, that's going to be every night between Josh Minot and Ugo and Jordan Walsh. Like, hey, they hit some shots tonight. They look way better as an option. Some nights they don't hit any shots and it's like, okay, they're just like more, more leaning on the defensive end.

[Greg Manakis]

Yeah.

[Mike Gorman]

Like Terrence Mann could give you a little bit more ball handling. Right. Like that's something that if you're just looking for what else.

[Greg Manakis]

He, he was bringing the ball up against pressure and everything and I thought he looked okay aside from that one time he tripped when a house. I ripped him. And that deal would go through 2728. So you'd be locking in like $15 million a year out of Terence man through 2728 and maybe looking at him as a piece or a piece that you can move.

[Mike Gorman]

I don't. Well, I want to add one piece this because like just I was also looking salary wise. Like this is really how I'm starting to look at, at the Simons experience is what can we do with the salary? Whether it's reduce it or how do we turn his spot or his salary spot or part of his salary spot into something productive and not necessarily just for this year. So same idea that Peanut had, right? Like hey, we can reduce the salary, reduce the tax bill and maybe give us a player that when Tatum comes back there's some type of use for. For me, my mind obviously goes to, you know, how can we. Because I think Nini didn't have a great game tonight. But overall this season I think he's been really great. Like, I think he's prov. Everything that we were hoping for so far. Still a long season. Got to get through the whole season consistently to really hit that mark. But I think he's doing it so far. 9 points, 8 rebounds, block and a half. Great defensive metrics like cool. I'm. I'm coming around to this is the idea. Neemi is part of a real rotation. I'm getting there and I think that's like really solid part of the season. I don't know if I'm there that he's going to be a starter on. When we're a high level team, we'll see. Time will tell. But enough, it's just.

[Greg Manakis]

Is he disciplined enough?

[Mike Gorman]

Right, right. It's just still a question mark, that's all. I think it could go either way. But my point being Simon's making, you know, 26, 27 million, whatever it is. I've been trying to look around at different centers that like that we could bring in because as if you have Neemi for half the game. And it's that Luke Garza part, which he's been good, but you know, when you get into a high leverage game, he's gonna kill you defensively. You can't have him out there. So, you know, we just played the Clippers, right. Like this is. This one's a bit of a dream scenario, but they're just completely melting down.

[Greg Manakis]

Right.

[Mike Gorman]

And they.

[Greg Manakis]

Yeah.

[Mike Gorman]

You know, have you, you. I'm sure you've seen what happens to their first round pick this year.

[Greg Manakis]

It goes to the Thunder.

[Mike Gorman]

Yeah, yeah, they're. Yeah, their, their first round pick, which could be apparently in a loaded draft with three to four. Is it unprotected, number one picks? It's unprotected, yeah. It's part of the Paul George trade. It's going to the Thunder. So the Thunder might be who they are right now, who we just talked about, and they might get one of these top guys. That's a realistic possibility. So like the Clippers down the road might have to just say it. We gotta like sell off parts and we gotta get what we can back. And so like a guy like Zubaj who makes, I think, like I looked it up earlier, I don't know if I still have this trade.

[Greg Manakis]

Give me all of zoom.

[Mike Gorman]

Right. And so I think that would be an expensive route to go. And so here's what I put together. I actually do have it pulled up here in one of my tabs. So using the Simon's contract, I'm adding in Sam Houser here. This year's Celtics pick.

[Greg Manakis]

Yeah.

[Mike Gorman]

Okay. This year's, this year's Celtics pick unprotected. So this is kind of like everyone depending on where we're at the trade deadline is gambling. Like, hey, if you guys fall in the lottery, we have a chance that you're losing out on. So let's get her, like kind of balance that out. Another first round pick down the line here, we'll figure out what year it is. So essentially two, two unprotected first round picks, Simon's Hauser. You get Zubach. You'd have to take on. I mean, I like Bogdanovich. He's been kind of hurt the last couple years. He's got an extra year that you're taking on. So this is them. Clippers are trying shed salary, get young guys, get tradable assets and then you have to throw in like one guy at like two point something million to. To just make the salaries work. But you're giving up decent amount of draft equity. Simons is just kind of cat filler, a flyer for them. Hauser is a valuable piece. It's probably about enough. So he's got. He's 18 mil plus two years, so three. So essentially if you trade from in season two and a half years at roughly 18, 19 million and the reason.

[Greg Manakis]

You'Re matching salaries is because the apron. They're both apron teams. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean that. I think bringing in Zubach who is an all defensive candidate like every single year and he's huge and he's more mobile than I think he gets credit for. I would love to have Zubot and he.

[Mike Gorman]

That's my pie in the sky idea.

[Greg Manakis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean that you always want to try and take advantage of teams that are in turmoil. Right. And are looking for anything that they can get. And a Celtics unprotected pick this year would be a nice little, nice little win for them and it helps the Celtics moving forward. I think that's a really nice idea. Obviously the Clippers would be the team that would say no to that. But to your point, if they really just need draft equity at this point, like that's a guy that you might be able to go get on a smaller end of that. I think that what the Celtics could do. Looking at the nets again, I really like day Ron Sharp coming off the bench.

[Mike Gorman]

You know, this crossed my mind today at one point in the game because I was, I was thinking of guys and I haven't really looked up. They. I mean it's not going to be.

[Greg Manakis]

2 year 12.5 million contract with a team option next year.

[Mike Gorman]

This is the lower. So. So the other guy that I was thinking of is Daniel Gafford who we talked a bunch about in the off season. Maverick's also kind of going through it like their, their situation with the cap's a lot more complicated. You got to get like exact match. I couldn't, I couldn't figure it out. And I wasn't going to dive into like a whole three team scenario. But there, there's potentially ways to, to do that. It's like a $14 million salary. So like this, this is where there's like levels to it, right? Where if we're trying to find that other big man, where like Zoo is probably the top level of like, somehow if we can get that done, I'm willing to risk a decent amount of draft equity because I do think he, he solves a lot of problems.

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[Mike Gorman]

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[Greg Manakis]

Yeah, I thought the Nets front court was better than the Celtics front court tonight. You know what I mean? Like there's just the other guys weren't very good. So like I like Claxton and I like Sharp. So I actually liked Clowney as well who started at the four for them. He's on a four year rookie scale contract worth a total of 15 million. So that goes through 26, 27. Can't really shoot but dude, him standing next to Jalen Brown, he was. He towered over Jalen Brown. His arms are like down to the floor. I was like, geez.

[Mike Gorman]

Talking about Clowny or Sharp?

[Greg Manakis]

Clowny. Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Gorman]

I was like, clowny hit three threes tonight. He was, you know, I mean, he, he was. I think actually at the half, I was at the box score, it was Clowney. I think Porter Jr. And Igor were 10 for 10 from 3. I was like, that's a pretty damn good half to have. We got three guys 10 for 10. But yeah, I think Clowney and Shop are two guys that are on that probably third level that I would like. You know, I would. I wouldn't mind seeing the Celtics find a way to try to get involved if the Nets are, you know, making moves to some of their cap space. Because that's what this Nets team is. This Nets team is just young. It's confusing.

[Greg Manakis]

It's only 21.

[Mike Gorman]

Yeah, super young. And so again, these are the, the games that you can't lose, but also the games where we as fans. It's almost like a scouting game. Right? It's almost like watching a college game. Like, who could I dream about us getting? Because none of these guys for the most part are unrealistic. Right. Like we just mentioned Zubot. That's probably an unrealistic trade. That's not happening. Gafford's complicated stuff with the Nets. If you wanted to make it happen, you probably just have to make the right offer and you can legitimately make it happen. So, yeah, it's interesting to think about these guys. And yeah, it's Dayron sharp, you know, seven to 10 from the field tonight. He was two or three from the free throw line. Sixteen points, seven rebounds, had three steals. Some of the steals are just product of bad basketball by the Celtics, but, you know, still, it sits on the stat sheet here. But 18 minutes. And yeah, I think Daron Sharp is a. Is a great call out here as a buy low type of guy that I think would make a lot of sense as potentially an upgrade over. Over somebody like Garza. Yeah.

[Greg Manakis]

And I think with like Brad Stevens, he's the type of guy that's going to watch these games. Like, just as you said, like we're scouting, Brad Stevens is scouting as well. He's looking for those bargain, you know, bargain basement deals that he can get. Like, that's what he saw with Josh Minot. That's what he saw with Luca Garza. Guys that he can take a chance on. And I think they. Ron Sharp and Clowny would both be two guys that I. I'd really like to just get a peek at anything else you want to talk about with this game, because it's the Nets.

[Mike Gorman]

Yeah, it's the Nets again. Right, Exactly. Like there's. As long as we don't lose this game. You did. You accomplished the mission. Right. Like, the 19 turnovers was gross. Eight of them came from Jaylen. But at the same time, he had 17 points in the third. Completely changed the game around and gave the Celtics the space. You know, Pritchard and White, you know, up and down again with a little bit with the shooting that's coming around, but I. I just can't really get too much into it. The only thing that I think we could talk a little bit about, as you mentioned, you know, no. No minutes DNP for. For Ugo tonight. Minot comes in and gets 20. Just. No, just over 19 minutes off the bench. Has a pretty big third quarter along with. To kind of be Jalen sidekick in that Jordan Walsh got his fifth start, but barely plays in the second half. A little bit bowel trouble again. I think kind of what we talked about last episod to be the case here, where it's just like every two weeks, like, we might as well start power ranking these three guys as to where they're at every. Every couple of weeks. Because I just feel like it's going to keep changing. And so, you know, Walsh came in as the clubhouse leader tonight. By the time we leave and we get to Friday, maybe my not has a starting spot back. I don't know. I don't know how. How quickly Joe's gonna make these changes. Maybe Ugo all of a sudden gets those minutes off the bench, but it just feels like it's. It's gonna be every week or every two weeks, we're gonna have a different feeling of who's leading the power ranking.

[Greg Manakis]

What are your thoughts on him giving Shireman a chance? I just, like, don't see it with Charman at all.

[Mike Gorman]

Yeah, I wanted to see it with Charman. I. I'm with you.

[Greg Manakis]

I.

[Mike Gorman]

It's kind of painful to watch, to be honest. I. I guess it's. It's almost like an audition, right? Like, you know, he's in his second year. It's, you know, especially in a game like this, and it feels like it's one game a week, right? That. That Joe is just like, all right, tonight, Baylor's getting 10 to 15 minutes, and we're gonna see what he has. And it hasn't been great. It just hasn't been. It. It looks funky, and it looks funky in a way that's not appealing. Like, you know, sometimes you watch a guy and you're like, it's all. It's Helter Skelter. It's off balance, and it's. It's. It's that with Baylor, but it feels sloppy.

[Greg Manakis]

Yeah, his shot selection's not great. And the shot's not going in. Yeah, it's terrible. He shoots bombs with, like, no rhythm whatsoever. Defensively, you can see he has some potential. He's pretty good at navigating screens. He's phys. He stays in really good position. He had a couple dumb fouls tonight.

[Mike Gorman]

But I think the dumb files ruined it. There's one possession on the. On the right wing. I'm like, all right, there you go, Baylor. And then just for absolutely no reason, kept his body going right into the guy put his hands on. It's like Baylor that, like, it. It was just. I mean, maybe that's something you grow. You grow out of. But, you know, it's Joe.

[Greg Manakis]

I was surprised Joe let him play through that initial mistake, and then he made a second dumb foul a couple minutes later, and then he took him up for Pritchard. Yeah, but I just, Like, I. I understand your point. You have to audition him. You know, spent the draft pick on him. Maybe another team sees him as a reclamation project that they might be able to get something out of, but I just don't see him necessarily being part of, like, the next contending team for the Celtics. I don't think Baylor Shireman's part of those plans. So any minutes that he's on the court, I'm just like, these are wasted. Like, he's not going to be part of the next team. So.

[Mike Gorman]

Right.

[Greg Manakis]

That's just kind of how I feel.

[Mike Gorman]

And it feels like I'm assuming you're like, why can't these go to Ugo? Right. That feels just more productive. Right. Like, if you had those 13 minutes, you just put Ugo in, like, and. And I think this is probably kind of, you know, early season. Like, all right, let's decide by, you know, because it's now eight and seven, so 15 games in. We'll decide by, you know, another 10 to 15 games. Here we get the game. 25:30. Charmin's never seen the floor again. Like, if it does. If he doesn't show any promise and it's all Ugo, Minot, and Jordan Walsh and will be that. That rotation that we're talking about within those power rankings because right now it does feel like out of those three wings, Ugo, my not. And. And Walsh, it's typically Hugo. The one, at least right now is the one that's catching the DNPs, right? Like, Minot has, at least for now, established himself as a guy. It's not that I can't imagine it would be. It would feel very shocking for Minot at this point to catch a full dnp.

[Greg Manakis]

Right. And that's kind of how Joe operates, though. Like, if you're a rookie, you don't really get, like, that much of an right. With. With Joe, it's. It's been surprising that Ugo has gotten the opportunity to play as much as he has already. Like, he makes people work for their spots. And it says a lot about Ugo that he's already earned some minutes on the court. But coming into the season, we were expecting Jordan Walsh to get that opportunity, and then he was outplayed by both of them. He was also injured in the preseason, so I think he kind of, like, missed out on his chance to show what he could do in the preseason. So it's good to see. It's good to see that we're both, like, back on. Oh, Jordan Walsh could be a future part of this team. Whereas, like, ye. A couple weeks ago, we were out on him.

[Mike Gorman]

We were sending them to China. Like, we were completely out on him. And, you know, I mean, I was thinking about the civics. I read an article that Noah Dalzell put out on. On Celtics blog, which was. Which is a good read. And it talks about how, you know, a plane seat opened up next to Jalen Brown with Kristaps Porzingis no longer there. And Jordan Walsh said, I didn't give him a choice. I just. I just started sitting there and it talked about how Jalen has been, to a degree, somewhat mentoring Jordan Walsh. Like, talking about how, you know, somebody has to go guard the other team's best player. Everyone else, maybe it's a little bit of jail. Like, hey, man, I'm pretty tired. Like, I could use someone else to go do it. And you think about it. And Jordan Walsh has been matching up since he came into the league with Jalen Brown, with Jason Tatum watching Drew Holiday, watching Derrick White. Like, he's had some of the best guys for two plus years to be able to watch and learn from and to, you know, craft his skill against. And so this is something where apparently, and. And Jordan Walsh says in the article he's not sure if Jaylen actually did this, but where Jaylen said, I'm gonna talk to Joe and like to get Jordan Walsh into these games. And to your point about the reversal that we've made on Jordan Walsh, it's like Jordan Walsh literally went from being. What do you do? Like, I hadn't seen him do anything of tangible, like, concrete evaluation that could make of him for the NBA to all of a sudden guarding Paulo Tyrese, Maxey, James Harden, like Jaren Jackson and doing Spectrum and doing it well. And it's been refreshing. It's been shocking. And then tonight, you know, obviously tonight didn't really. I didn't know. I don't know if you have any thoughts on his. His play tonight. A little bit of foul trouble, so he doesn't really play as much.

[Greg Manakis]

That one nice drive out of the. Out of the left corner.

[Mike Gorman]

I love that. That was great.

[Greg Manakis]

Jumped on two feet and then just kind of like laid it to. To the left hand, which is a very difficult move to pull off. I thought he was a little gun shy. Anytime he got the ball in the corner, I felt like he could have probably got a couple more three. Well, he didn't shoot any threes tonight, so. Could have got a couple threes. Yeah, it was just a rough night for him. That's gonna happen. You know, when you're. When you're starting for the first time in your life and you're guarding a really crafty screen navigator like Michael Porter Jr. Yeah, that's.

[Mike Gorman]

And that's the interesting part, right, is everyone else has been more on ball or Jaren Jackson was going to try and bully him, right, that he's just been like, cool. I just got to guard the guy with the ball, Porter Jr. For, you know, whatever you feel about him and. Or him or his podcast game, you know, know, he. He is a great screen navigator and he's a really good shooter, and that makes. And it's tough because he's so big, right? Like, that is what he does really well and he's really elite at. And so when you talk about all the guys I just listed out, Porter is drastically a different cover than what those other guys are. So I think that's an important point to bring up. And then I think it leads to, you know, the next game Celtics have here, which is until Friday night against the Nets, and that's going to give Jordan Walsh a second chance. Right. So I hope that Joe actually sticks with Jordan Walsh in the starting line, because I want to see actually what Jordan Walsh's, you know, how he adjusts to having to. To do that coverage twice because, again, that's the. The best part about these matchups where you play the same team twice. It is a mini playoff series, even though.

[Greg Manakis]

Yeah.

[Mike Gorman]

Come in the playoffs, but it's okay.

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Cool.

[Mike Gorman]

That guy got you. He got you in game one one. What are you gonna do in game two to get him? So I hope Joe sticks with Jordan so that we get a chance to. To see that there, but, yeah, Nets games, man. Hard to find content. Anything else you want to talk about tonight?

[Greg Manakis]

Not necessarily. We could talk a little bit about the Clippers game if you wanted to. I don't really feel the need to at this point. Like, I guess the only thing would be Jalen Brown stepping up with 13 rebounds in that game after you called him out.

[Mike Gorman]

Clearly. Listen, clearly a fan of the podcast.

[Greg Manakis]

Loves the podcast. Dad takes it as motivation and said, you will. I'm getting 13 rebounds tonight. I did watch that game with my dad, and at one point, he looks at the box score and he's like, whoa, Jaylen Brown shot 33 shots. That's way too many shots. That's what we have to do with this team, dad, like, because he hasn't really been watching the Celtics. I was like, we don't have Jason Tatum when we lost, like, a whole bunch of guys from last year. Jalen Brown's gonna have.

[Mike Gorman]

Drew holiday's averaging, like, 18 points out. Yeah, Portland, like, right. You know, we don't have anyone that. That can score. You know, it's interesting talking about Jalen Brown getting those rebounds. Do you want to know, like. Like, part of that goes back to the Jordan Walsh point. Hey, someone else can guard these other guys so that Derrick White can get back to doing the Derrick White thing. So Jalen Brown can get back to doing. To hitting the boards more, to, you know, being the guy that can, you know, go off for 17 points and use his energy more efficiently. Like, that's a big part of Jordan Walsh stepping up and guarding those guys that we all listed. So, you know, Clippers game, to your point, I don't think there's too much to mention there. Again, the clutch time's going to be tough. The, you know, team's making a comeback on the Celtics. Wake me up if there's. If that's news to you, because it shouldn't be. Yeah, I don't know what's happening in the chat here. Somebody got knocked out. I don't know. We'll see if we get. See if. See if we get. See if we get that story. But yeah, with the Clippers, you know, again, they're falling apart. Not too much. I'm looking here, Greg. Just kind of at like other games going on tonight as we're recording. Man, man, Pistons, they are just rolling right now. They beat the Hawks tonight 120 to 112. They're now 13 and 2. And you want to, do you want.

[Greg Manakis]

To go old fashioned? Look at the standings. We haven't looked at the standings in a while.

[Mike Gorman]

Let's take a look at it because I was, I was looking at it earlier today, man. And the Pistons, at least in the east are kind of separating themselves right now. But then two through, you know, the Celtics were 11th going into tonight. They've jumped up to ninth now. But two through 11, it's tight, man, it's tight. It's. What is it? Two games separate two through 11 in the East. So a week makes all the difference. So again, to the point that we started this podcast on, you play the Nets, you play the Wizards, you play the Pacers. As banged up as they are, you got to get dubs. If you have any dreams of, of being in the top of that play in or being outside of the play in, you cannot lose those games.

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[Greg Manakis]

For sure. Let's. I'm just going to read out the standings right now for those that are listening, you know, driving to work tomorrow morning or, you know, don't have a screen in front of them. So The Pistons are 13 and 2 right now. On an 11 game winning streak. In first place right now. Now the Cavs are 10 and 5 in second place. The Raptors, my team, my dark horse team, they've, they've turned it around. They are 9 and 5, 8 and 2 in their last 10 games. The Knicks, who lost a heartbreaker last night to the heat, they are 8 and 5. The Philadelphia 76ers still playing good basketball. They got Paul George back in, in their last game. They are now 8 and 5 in fifth place. Atlanta Hot Hawks hanging in there without Trey Young at nine and six. So those are your top six teams right now. Then you go to the play in, you have the Miami Heat. They were playing good basketball. I actually caught a few Heat games of late and you know, they're pretty interesting.

[Mike Gorman]

They're playing good ball and they're playing ball without Bam and hero right now. Like, yeah, that, that's, that's an interesting team to watch and they're funner than I expected when we first play. Good question. I'll look that up while you keep.

[Greg Manakis]

Okay, so the heater in seventh place at 8 and 6, 6. The Bulls after that hot start are now 7 and 6. They're 4 and 6 in their last 10. Josh Giddy just came back last night, got a big victory for them. And then our Boston Celtics in ninth place right now at 8 and 7, 6 and 4 in our last 10. And the Orlando Magic 7 and 3 in their last 10. They are in 10th place at 8 and 7. The Milwaukee Bucks Giannis out for a couple weeks with a groin strain, are now in 11th place. And that's the thing you said about the Bucks, man. If Giannis goes down for an extended period, that's a free fall waiting to happen. So. So we'll see if they can hang around the playing picture over the next couple weeks without Giannis. Some other news and notes around the NBA. Victor Wembanyama, man goes down with a calf strain. They're playing it safe with him right now, so he's going to miss a couple of weeks. Shout out to Giannis and Wemby. The NBA is better when they're healthy.

[Mike Gorman]

Yeah, yeah. I didn't love seeing either of those injuries happen the other night. Spurs did get a win tonight against, against the Grizzlies. And to answer your earlier question, Greg, Celtics play the he for the first time in December. December 19th is when we'll see the Heat for the first time. So I'm not. I think Tyler Hero should be close to coming back at that time. Not sure about the bam timeline. But yeah, but this is a time where the Bucks are potentially, you know, I mean, right now the latest update was one to two weeks. So if it's one to two weeks, they can probably, you know, take a look at what their schedule is. They might be able to be okay day, but if you get to three, four weeks, man, without Giannis, that team is, is gonna struggle. And I really like, you know, I've talked a bunch of times here about Ryan Rollins. Like he's not going to carry your team, right? I'm sorry. He said that's just, that's just too much to ask for. So that will be the team that we really got to look for over the next couple of weeks to see where they end up and see if there is any separation that starts to be, to be created in this mix. But right now it's the Pistons who are just on fire, the Cavs and then the Knicks are dealing with their own injuries, like you mentioned. I did catch some of that Knicks Heat game last night. No Brunson, no OG Deuce McBride taking one of the worst end of game shots I've seen in a while. He had a great game, but it was just a horrible shot at the end of that game. But yeah, the Knicks are, I think they'll be fine. They'll ultimately, they'll be fine. So not really worried about it. So I think it really comes down to like the Bucks falling and then everybody else is just kind of where we, we thought this was going to be a dog fight where everyone's going to be within 1, 2, 3 games of each other. And that's what gives you hope and leads you to why our conversation turned into an Anthony Simons trade combo for half of the box score was, hey, if Tatum does come back because these videos continue to look encouraging, you know, what does this team look like with one more real guy, one more guy filling a gap? That was very.

[Greg Manakis]

There's just a bunch of blah in the Eastern Conference, man. Like the Pistons, Cavs and Knicks are the only teams that like, like, are definitively better than the Celtics. Like definitively like I think all the other teams, they're, they're good enough like to where I wouldn't be surprised if the Celtics end up as a nine seed. But like if Jason Tatum's able to come back and the Celtics are hanging around the the six seed, there's no reason why the Celtics can't with a healthy Jason Tatum and a nice Anthony Simons trail trade. Get up into that. You Know, four or five.

[Mike Gorman]

Exactly.

[Greg Manakis]

That's just, that's just what I want to see happen this year is Anthony. Anthony Simons won't be on the Celtics and Jason Tatum will be playing with a new center that Anthony Simons gets us.

[Mike Gorman]

Yeah. And, and it's. That's. You're spot on. It's those three teams. Everyone else is like, if Jason Tatum comes back and the Celtics are anywhere within two, three games of that, you know, that mix of teams that we're talking about, like, they've got to be themselves. They're like, we wasted this, man. Like, we should have buried them when we had a chance this season. And yeah, it's just a bunch of mediocrity, but. And to be fair, even when you look out West, Greg, like, I kind of feel like in general, like the west is certainly better, but the Thunder are on a whole different level. The Nuggets in, in the Rockets I think are kind of on like this own separate tier. And like the Lakers, Spurs, T Wolves, like they're better than a lot of teams in the east, but I also don't think they're like invincible teams either.

[Greg Manakis]

Right, right.

[Mike Gorman]

Like, like I think there's really three legit, legit teams in the Western Conference that are better than everyone else in the entire league. There's a little subsection of the east and then it's kind of like a lot of teams that are not that far away from being on pretty equal footing. So Jason Tatum return is a massive boost obviously Captain Obvious here for the Celtics if and when we get to that point. So we'll keep looking, we'll keep looking for that Anthony Simons trade, see if we can find what happens here. See what Brad is scouting as we continue to scout. But I think that's gonna do it here. We're not gonna get a story, it looks like from the chat here of whatever happened with Somebo getting knocked out. So we're not going to sit around waiting for that. So Celtics back in action on Friday against the Nets. And then after that we'll be heading into the Thanksgiving week. So we'll have some mixed coverage on that. So we'll figure out what we're going to do for that. But some interesting games that week. Orlando, Detroit and Minnesota with Cleveland the following Sunday. So once we get Brooklyn game, big four game stretch, which also makes Friday kind of a must win. Right? Like you have to get that.

[Greg Manakis]

And it's a cup game, baby. Oh, we gotta stay alive in the NBA Cup. We gotta stay. We do have we do have one question will answer this then we'll get out of here. Yeah. Parque Press Shout out to Par Press said they just joined the stream. What are the chances JT comes back by February 8th vers the New York Knicks. Are you looking to get tickets Par Press Is that why you're asking?

[Mike Gorman]

Very specific. Yeah. Little revenge against the Knicks. I would say unlikely. But what the do I know? I'm not a doctor. I don't know. I don't know what's happening. But I I mean my, my best get like feel like yeah, it, it feels like at this point like a late February. There you go. Yeah. It had to be ticket related. It feels like late February, early March would be the time timeline that you're kind of start to really be like, is this happening and or is it worth it where the Celtics are in the standing. So I, I, my guess is unfortunately I, I would say you're probably like at best a week or two. Probably like two weeks early as to when a Jason Tatum return might happen. But who knows? It's, it could be one of those things where comes out of the blue and they're like, holy, Jason Tatum's back next week and we didn't know it was happening or he's back tonight.

[Greg Manakis]

Oh, man, that just got me excited. I know Jalen, Jalen is balling this year, man. Like, he's been awesome. The eight turnovers aside tonight, like, I don't even care about the eight turnovers. Jaylen Brown has been unfucking believable this year. Like, he is surpassing my greatest expectations for like what he would be able to accomplish this year. And it all started when Joe Missoula was just like, oh, we're just gonna like make you do all the things you do good and just make you do them great and feature you not try to make. Yeah, just be yourself my guy. And Jaylen Brown has been hooping. That's my guy. I'm so excited to see it and I can't wait to see if and when Jason Tatum comes back how they figure out that balance because they're clearly finding something with Jaylen Brown in the mid range and you know, having him just be a force of nature off the ball.

[Mike Gorman]

Yeah, we said this was a big pendulum swing year for, for Jaylen Brown as to what his value is. It's, it's up into the right. Right. That's, that's where it's going. And it's been awesome to see because the season could be really, really, really depressing if it was going the other way. But Jaylen Brown has been been awesome. And I, I, I, if it's one of those things where it's funny, there's so many detractors that I feel like have been out there for Jaylen Brown's whole career. He's awesome right now. The team just doesn't kind of matter. It's in the middle of that BL conference. He gets a lot of passing. He gets a lot of, like, passing something in the bottom of the notes like, hey, Jalen Brown, he's been great. All right, onto the next team. And damn, I wish.

[Greg Manakis]

Jay, like, how many of those people are actually watching the Celtics right now? They're probably just, like, looking at Jalen Brown box scores, like, oh, like, they'll probably look at the eight turnovers tonight and be like, oh, it's Jalen Brown, like, you know, regressing back to all the stupid Jalen Brown. It's like, yeah, like, he had some bad turnovers, but, like, he was the whole reason the Celtics, like, won the game. Yeah.

[Mike Gorman]

100. So great season from Jalen Brown. I did see an early all star prediction from. I think it was Nikais Duncan at yacht. Yahoo. Yeah, Jalen Brown was in there with flying colors. So I think Jalen Brown's well on his way to doing everything that we asked of him. But let's wrap it up on this one here. We will be back maybe this weekend. We'll figure it out. Thanksgiving, got some travel plans here in the mix, so we'll figure out some coverage and we will have some more thoughts for you guys. But as always, make sure you're following @Green MVPod, YouTube, Twitter, tick tock. Shout out to our guy, Alex, the producer for the clips that he's putting out for us. We'll have that for you guys. Greg, always a pleasure. Everybody else, enjoy the rest of your day. Enjoy the rest of your week. And we'll catch you later with the over 500 Boston Celtics. Catch you later. Peace. Until I hit the floor Every time I get this high it's you I find it don't take much no more until I'm at your door.

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[Greg Manakis]

Roll Sparks.

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