Grimm, Grimmer, Grimmest: Adam and Liz Gotauco Discuss Fairy Tales

Date: September 23, 2025
Host: Adam Gidwitz
Guest: Liz Gotauco

Episode Overview

In this lively and insightful episode of Grimm, Grimmer, Grimmest, bestselling author and storyteller Adam Gidwitz sits down with children’s librarian, author, and social media fairy tale phenom Liz Gotauco. Together, they dive deep into the intricacies of weird, messed-up fairy tales—where they come from, why they endure, and how both adults and children respond to their strange magic. The conversation ranges from Hans Christian Andersen’s dark endings to the wild traditions of Italian folktales, punctuated by hilarious personal stories and both hosts’ infectious enthusiasm for storytelling.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Fairy Tale Origin Stories

• Adam introduces Liz Gotauco as a kindred spirit—a children’s librarian and author who tells irreverent fairy tales ("You tell crazy, messed up fairy tales. She does it for grownups and I do it for kids—and for grownups." - Adam, 01:54).
• Liz’s Journey: Her love for fairy tales sparked by Disney’s The Little Mermaid and then being handed Hans Christian Andersen’s original tale. The tragic, painful ending of Andersen’s story both shocked and fascinated her.
  • Quote: “Anytime I was in a body of water, I was like, I’m a mermaid now… My mother, she gave me a copy of Hans Christian Andersen’s tales, and she was like, you should read what happened in the old one. And it did. And I was like, oh no.” (03:44)
• Adam’s Journey: Came from being a teacher and an accidental substitute librarian. He first encountered the original Grimm tales as he prepped to read to second graders—"Faithful Johannes" in particular—and realized kids could handle (and love) the darker side of these stories.
  • Quote: “In Faithful Johannes, two children get their heads cut off by their parents. They get put back on again, so they’re fine. But I was like, that’s interesting. Can I read this to second graders? Will I get fired? And then I thought, let’s find out.” (08:03)
• Pivotal Moment: Adam shares the story of a student’s encouragement that led him to write A Tale Dark and Grimm.
  • Quote: “She stuck her finger in my face and she said, that was good. You should make that into a book.” (08:54)

2. Grimm vs. Andersen: The Philosophy of Fairy Tales

• Adam expresses a strong preference for Grimm tales because he believes they mirror the emotional and psychological complexity of childhood—"life is tough, scary stuff happens, but you can make it through."
  • Quote: “All my episodes…you got a kid you love, they go through something really tough, and then they find a way to triumph at the end. And it feels to me like the structure of childhood.” (10:27)
• In contrast, Andersen tales often end in tragedy, without cathartic triumph.
  • Quote: “Anderson is like, you know, things were bad and then they got really bad, and then she died of cold and hunger.” (11:51)

3. Diving into the Original ‘Little Mermaid’

• Liz recounts the differences: no name for the mermaid, no animal companions, and a far more painful transformation. She suffers, loses the prince, becomes seafoam, and must wait 300 years to earn a soul—unless children behave, in which case her wait is shortened.
  • Memorable Exchange:
    • Liz: “…if she sees children behaving nicely, it like, takes days off of her probationary period…But if she sees children misbehaving, that adds time.” (06:17)
    • Adam: “You should think about that the next time you’re thinking of being a naughty little child is you’re making it really hard for Ariel to get to the angels in heaven.” (06:36)

4. Retelling, Remodeling, and the Rights of the Storyteller

• Adam discusses how he constantly adapts fairy tales, believing the oral tradition gives everyone the right to reshape these stories.
  • Quote: “There’s nothing sacred about the story as the Grimms told it…This is in some sense like a cultural inheritance…and so I find that it’s absolutely my right, everyone’s right, to take the ideas from the story and then retell them how we want to retell them.” (16:25)

5. Examples of Offbeat Fairy Tales

• Liz shares “The Tinderbox” by Hans Christian Andersen—a wild adventure involving witches, magical dogs, fortune, a non-consensual princess abduction, and a “happy ending” that’s a bit ethically suspect.
  • Humorous aside on fairy tales: “The hero…is not always very heroic, you know…The only good witch is one whose head’s been cut off.” (13:40)
• The conversation also touches on the many Cinderella story variants and how revenge and justice are beloved by audiences of all ages.

6. Storytelling with Kids (and Grown-Ups)

• Both agree that the responses from their audiences—especially kids—are the most fascinating part of storytelling. Kids often anticipate plot twists, make jokes, or loudly root for revenge against fairy tale villains.
  • Adam: “It became clear to me very quickly that the best part was the things that the kids were saying back to me…this fairy tale is amazing, and the kids are even more amazing.” (20:26)
• Liz notes similarities in telling stories to grown-ups, who also enjoy humor, twists, and newly discovered angles on old tales.

7. Fairy Tales’ Influence on Adam’s Writing

• Adam explains how fairy tales shape not just the content but the very structure of his books—each chapter often crafted like a tale, with its own arc and catharsis.
  • Quote: “Each chapter begins once upon a time and ends with at least some sort of happily ever after, even if it continues to the next story…and I’ve continued to do that in my books.” (27:34)
• Fun Fact: The element cobalt (cobalt blue) was named after mischievous kobold spirits from German folklore—a detail Adam loved so much he used kobolds in his WWII series.

8. Exploring Tales from Around the World

• Adam and Liz discuss sources for fresh, weird fairy tales:
  • Adam draws on obscure collections like The Turnip Princess (Franz Xaver von Schönwerth) whose stories were rediscovered only recently and are notably odd.
  • Liz recommends Italo Calvino’s folktales from Italy—"very funny…a princess who lives inside an apple," "a boy cut in half by a witch," and Italian/Cinderella variants with ogres.
  • Suggestions for Hungarian tales, Filipino folktales with transformational twists, and partnerships with storytellers for more diverse representations.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the moral complexity of tales:
  “A happy ending is a questionable thing there, because if a bad guy is happy, is it happy?” – Adam Gidwitz (15:46)

• On adapting tales:
  “There’s nothing sacred about the story as they told it…these are our stories. I love that.” – Adam Gidwitz (18:16)

• On audience participation:
  “Your listeners’ input is my favorite part of your podcast…with all, you know, you’re fine, Adam, but the kids are the stars.” – Liz Gotauco (20:19)

• On the universality of fairy tales:
  “The kids respond in very predictable ways to these fairy tales…because we all share certain things…we all love our parents, we want to be safe, we want to eat, we are afraid of evil witches and ogres in the forest.” – Adam Gidwitz (36:05)

• On future collaborations:
  “Well, it sounds like listeners of Grim Grimmer Grimmest, this is not the last you’re gonna hear from Liz Gotauco.” – Adam Gidwitz (37:40)

Timestamps for Key Sections

• [01:50] – Show opens, introductions and host’s admiration for Liz Gotauco
• [03:44] – Liz’s fairy tale origin story via The Little Mermaid
• [07:14] – Adam’s fairy tale origin and Faithful Johannes anecdote
• [10:27] – Philosophical differences: Grimm vs. Andersen
• [13:38] – Liz retells the zaniness of Andersen’s “The Tinderbox”
• [16:25] – Adam on the practice and right of fairy tale remixing
• [19:26] – Discussing Cinderella variants and storytelling with teens & kids
• [20:26] – The magic of kid audience interaction in storytelling
• [27:00] – Adam on folklore’s influence and the story of the kobold
• [27:34] – How fairy tales structure Adam’s writing
• [33:51] – New story sources: Italian, Hungarian, and Filipino folktales
• [36:05] – Adam on universal traits in global fairy tales
• [37:09] – Liz offers to bring Filipino folktales to the podcast

Tone & Style

The conversation is fast-paced, witty, and accessible, filled with playful banter, thoughtful reflection, and lots of laugh-out-loud moments. Both Adam and Liz keep things fun and relatable, often slipping into dry asides and encouraging their younger listeners to question, imagine, and maybe even slightly misbehave—for the sake of a really good story.

In Summary

This episode is a passionate celebration of the strangeness, depth, and enduring appeal of fairy tales—how they challenge and comfort children, how they’re reclaimed and reshaped with each retelling, and how both kids and adults crave a little weirdness and catharsis. For teachers, parents, writers, or aspiring mermaids, this episode is both an ode to fairy tale tradition and a roadmap for playful reinvention.

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