Adam and Liz Gotauco Discuss Fairy Tales

Summary

Grimm, Grimmer, Grimmest: Adam and Liz Gotauco Discuss Fairy Tales

Date: September 23, 2025
Host: Adam Gidwitz
Guest: Liz Gotauco

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Episode Overview

In this lively and insightful episode of Grimm, Grimmer, Grimmest, bestselling author and storyteller Adam Gidwitz sits down with children’s librarian, author, and social media fairy tale phenom Liz Gotauco. Together, they dive deep into the intricacies of weird, messed-up fairy tales—where they come from, why they endure, and how both adults and children respond to their strange magic. The conversation ranges from Hans Christian Andersen’s dark endings to the wild traditions of Italian folktales, punctuated by hilarious personal stories and both hosts’ infectious enthusiasm for storytelling.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Fairy Tale Origin Stories

• Adam introduces Liz Gotauco as a kindred spirit—a children’s librarian and author who tells irreverent fairy tales ("You tell crazy, messed up fairy tales. She does it for grownups and I do it for kids—and for grownups." - Adam, 01:54).
• Liz’s Journey: Her love for fairy tales sparked by Disney’s The Little Mermaid and then being handed Hans Christian Andersen’s original tale. The tragic, painful ending of Andersen’s story both shocked and fascinated her.
  • Quote: “Anytime I was in a body of water, I was like, I’m a mermaid now… My mother, she gave me a copy of Hans Christian Andersen’s tales, and she was like, you should read what happened in the old one. And it did. And I was like, oh no.” (03:44)
• Adam’s Journey: Came from being a teacher and an accidental substitute librarian. He first encountered the original Grimm tales as he prepped to read to second graders—"Faithful Johannes" in particular—and realized kids could handle (and love) the darker side of these stories.
  • Quote: “In Faithful Johannes, two children get their heads cut off by their parents. They get put back on again, so they’re fine. But I was like, that’s interesting. Can I read this to second graders? Will I get fired? And then I thought, let’s find out.” (08:03)
• Pivotal Moment: Adam shares the story of a student’s encouragement that led him to write A Tale Dark and Grimm.
  • Quote: “She stuck her finger in my face and she said, that was good. You should make that into a book.” (08:54)

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2. Grimm vs. Andersen: The Philosophy of Fairy Tales

• Adam expresses a strong preference for Grimm tales because he believes they mirror the emotional and psychological complexity of childhood—"life is tough, scary stuff happens, but you can make it through."
  • Quote: “All my episodes…you got a kid you love, they go through something really tough, and then they find a way to triumph at the end. And it feels to me like the structure of childhood.” (10:27)
• In contrast, Andersen tales often end in tragedy, without cathartic triumph.
  • Quote: “Anderson is like, you know, things were bad and then they got really bad, and then she died of cold and hunger.” (11:51)

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3. Diving into the Original ‘Little Mermaid’

• Liz recounts the differences: no name for the mermaid, no animal companions, and a far more painful transformation. She suffers, loses the prince, becomes seafoam, and must wait 300 years to earn a soul—unless children behave, in which case her wait is shortened.
  • Memorable Exchange:
    • Liz: “…if she sees children behaving nicely, it like, takes days off of her probationary period…But if she sees children misbehaving, that adds time.” (06:17)
    • Adam: “You should think about that the next time you’re thinking of being a naughty little child is you’re making it really hard for Ariel to get to the angels in heaven.” (06:36)

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4. Retelling, Remodeling, and the Rights of the Storyteller

• Adam discusses how he constantly adapts fairy tales, believing the oral tradition gives everyone the right to reshape these stories.
  • Quote: “There’s nothing sacred about the story as the Grimms told it…This is in some sense like a cultural inheritance…and so I find that it’s absolutely my right, everyone’s right, to take the ideas from the story and then retell them how we want to retell them.” (16:25)

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5. Examples of Offbeat Fairy Tales

• Liz shares “The Tinderbox” by Hans Christian Andersen—a wild adventure involving witches, magical dogs, fortune, a non-consensual princess abduction, and a “happy ending” that’s a bit ethically suspect.
  • Humorous aside on fairy tales: “The hero…is not always very heroic, you know…The only good witch is one whose head’s been cut off.” (13:40)
• The conversation also touches on the many Cinderella story variants and how revenge and justice are beloved by audiences of all ages.

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6. Storytelling with Kids (and Grown-Ups)

• Both agree that the responses from their audiences—especially kids—are the most fascinating part of storytelling. Kids often anticipate plot twists, make jokes, or loudly root for revenge against fairy tale villains.
  • Adam: “It became clear to me very quickly that the best part was the things that the kids were saying back to me…this fairy tale is amazing, and the kids are even more amazing.” (20:26)
• Liz notes similarities in telling stories to grown-ups, who also enjoy humor, twists, and newly discovered angles on old tales.

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7. Fairy Tales’ Influence on Adam’s Writing

• Adam explains how fairy tales shape not just the content but the very structure of his books—each chapter often crafted like a tale, with its own arc and catharsis.
  • Quote: “Each chapter begins once upon a time and ends with at least some sort of happily ever after, even if it continues to the next story…and I’ve continued to do that in my books.” (27:34)
• Fun Fact: The element cobalt (cobalt blue) was named after mischievous kobold spirits from German folklore—a detail Adam loved so much he used kobolds in his WWII series.

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8. Exploring Tales from Around the World

• Adam and Liz discuss sources for fresh, weird fairy tales:
  • Adam draws on obscure collections like The Turnip Princess (Franz Xaver von Schönwerth) whose stories were rediscovered only recently and are notably odd.
  • Liz recommends Italo Calvino’s folktales from Italy—"very funny…a princess who lives inside an apple," "a boy cut in half by a witch," and Italian/Cinderella variants with ogres.
  • Suggestions for Hungarian tales, Filipino folktales with transformational twists, and partnerships with storytellers for more diverse representations.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the moral complexity of tales:
  “A happy ending is a questionable thing there, because if a bad guy is happy, is it happy?” – Adam Gidwitz (15:46)

• On adapting tales:
  “There’s nothing sacred about the story as they told it…these are our stories. I love that.” – Adam Gidwitz (18:16)

• On audience participation:
  “Your listeners’ input is my favorite part of your podcast…with all, you know, you’re fine, Adam, but the kids are the stars.” – Liz Gotauco (20:19)

• On the universality of fairy tales:
  “The kids respond in very predictable ways to these fairy tales…because we all share certain things…we all love our parents, we want to be safe, we want to eat, we are afraid of evil witches and ogres in the forest.” – Adam Gidwitz (36:05)

• On future collaborations:
  “Well, it sounds like listeners of Grim Grimmer Grimmest, this is not the last you’re gonna hear from Liz Gotauco.” – Adam Gidwitz (37:40)

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Timestamps for Key Sections

• [01:50] – Show opens, introductions and host’s admiration for Liz Gotauco
• [03:44] – Liz’s fairy tale origin story via The Little Mermaid
• [07:14] – Adam’s fairy tale origin and Faithful Johannes anecdote
• [10:27] – Philosophical differences: Grimm vs. Andersen
• [13:38] – Liz retells the zaniness of Andersen’s “The Tinderbox”
• [16:25] – Adam on the practice and right of fairy tale remixing
• [19:26] – Discussing Cinderella variants and storytelling with teens & kids
• [20:26] – The magic of kid audience interaction in storytelling
• [27:00] – Adam on folklore’s influence and the story of the kobold
• [27:34] – How fairy tales structure Adam’s writing
• [33:51] – New story sources: Italian, Hungarian, and Filipino folktales
• [36:05] – Adam on universal traits in global fairy tales
• [37:09] – Liz offers to bring Filipino folktales to the podcast

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Tone & Style

The conversation is fast-paced, witty, and accessible, filled with playful banter, thoughtful reflection, and lots of laugh-out-loud moments. Both Adam and Liz keep things fun and relatable, often slipping into dry asides and encouraging their younger listeners to question, imagine, and maybe even slightly misbehave—for the sake of a really good story.

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In Summary

This episode is a passionate celebration of the strangeness, depth, and enduring appeal of fairy tales—how they challenge and comfort children, how they’re reclaimed and reshaped with each retelling, and how both kids and adults crave a little weirdness and catharsis. For teachers, parents, writers, or aspiring mermaids, this episode is both an ode to fairy tale tradition and a roadmap for playful reinvention.

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For more fairy tale fun and to catch the latest episodes (ad-free!), visit pinna.fm and use code GRIM for a discount.

Transcript

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[Adam Gidwitz]

The 4Knight A Fantasy Musical podcast suitable for all ages. Brought to you by fool and Scholar Productions. Follow Nathaniel the Boar Knight and the friends he meets along his journey as he's bitten by a wereman and must break the curse before the full moon. Listen to the Boar Knight wherever you get your podcasts or learn [e-mail] Chicken.

[Liz Gattaco]

Caring now tonight, here comes the bright light. Pinna.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Grim Grimmer Grimace welcome to a very special episode of Grim Grimmer Grimmest where I'm going to be talking to somebody I have admired for a while and a new friend of mine, Liz Gutaco, who is a children's librarian and also an author. And she does what I do, which is she tells crazy messed up fairy tales. She does it for grownups and I do it for kids and for grownups, but for grownups out there and only grownups. She has a great new book of these crazy fairy tales. You should totally go look it up. Liz Gattaco is her name and also has a really fun social media feed. Social media presence. That's Ozbrarian where she tells these hilarious fairy tales, but very much for grownups. But I know she can talk to kids because Liz, you are also a children's librarian, is that right?

[Liz Gattaco]

I am. I've been a children's librarian for about 15 years and it's the best job ever.

[Adam Gidwitz]

It is amazing when your book got sent to me in the mail by your very savvy Publisher who was like, I think you would like this. And I was like, oh, my gosh. I had a sister, and I didn't know I had a sister. So it's exciting to be. To be talking to you right now.

[Liz Gattaco]

It's very true. And during the process of writing my own book there, at one point, Tom was like, do you know a tale dark and grim? And I was like, do I know a tale dark and grim? I'm a children's librarian who loves weird fairy tales. What do you think the answer is? And so, you know, and that was a great inspiration to kind of think about my book being like a grown up, cynical version of yours.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a good description of it. But you still appreciate them, right? You cynical about them? Yeah, yeah. Okay. How did you first fall in love with weird fairy tales? Like, how did you first discover them?

[Liz Gattaco]

Well, I was the perfect age when Disney's the Little Mermaid, the original, came out, and that became my entire personality. Like, anytime I was in a body of water, you know, I was like, I'm a mermaid now. If I was on a rock, I'm like, thrusting myself up in the air and the waves crashing behind me, of course. And it's really. I'm just sitting on the beach. And my mother's like, elizabeth, what are you doing? And so my mother, who is like, will take any opportunity to make an interest, a bookish interest. And my mother, she gave me a copy of Hans Christian Andersen's tales, and she was like, you should read what happened in the old one. And it did. And I was like, oh, no.

[Adam Gidwitz]

But also for the kids out there who don't know, and adults, a lot of adults don't know what happens in the real Little Mermaid.

[Liz Gattaco]

It's a much more difficult process for the Little Mermaid, who does not have a name as your listeners will be familiar with. This is a common thing in fairy tales. She's just the Little Mermaid.

[Adam Gidwitz]

She also doesn't have a crab friend.

[Liz Gattaco]

No crab friend, no scuttle. Scuttle's my favorite Disney character of all time, so that was a shock to read. She is obsessed with humans, with human life. She has a grandmother, a wonderful grandmother character in that version who tells her all about humans and how the only way to become human is to marry a human. And so, you know, Ariel, she kind of sets out more at the idea of becoming human than, like, marrying a prince. And luckily, she meets a prince who's handsome, and he seems to like her, although not great. He's not A great guy. And unfortunately, though, for her, where Ariel gets to experience all this wonder and joy and seeing human life, it's very hard for the little mermaid in the old version to become a human. It hurts her to walk on her legs. And the prince likes her, but he doesn't really like her. And so she has a sad ending. She doesn't end up with the prince. He marries someone else. And she, because of this deal she's made of the sea witch, something you should never do. I don't recommend. She has to become part of the sea foam. She can't even go back to being a mermaid again. She does have a little upside that she kind of joins these beautiful angels who take care of the earth, and that gets her this immortal soul she's been really wanting.

[Adam Gidwitz]

And do I remember correctly, that. So when she. She becomes seafoam and then she gets to join these angels after 300 years.

[Liz Gattaco]

Isn'T it specified she hasn't suffered enough yet? She has to.

[Adam Gidwitz]

That's such a weird situation to go.

[Liz Gattaco]

Around the world for 300 years. And not only that, actually, it's not even that. That easy. Which is saying something. Because if she sees, like, children behaving nicely, it, like, takes days off of her probationary period. You know, she'll get to go to heaven sooner. But if she sees children misbehaving, that adds time.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Oh, I forgot that part.

[Liz Gattaco]

You should think about that the next time you're thinking of being a naughty little child is you're making it really hard for Ariel to get to the angels in heaven.

[Adam Gidwitz]

That's right. And this story was written what, about 150 years?

[Liz Gattaco]

And she hasn't reached 300 years yet.

[Adam Gidwitz]

She needs your help. Children.

[Liz Gattaco]

Please behave. Clean your room for the little mermaid.

[Adam Gidwitz]

For the love of Ariel, or whatever. Was her name Ariel?

[Liz Gattaco]

No, she had no name. Her name is Fred. For all we know.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Fred. Yes. Fred is exactly what my podcast listeners hope it is. Unless it's Bob. That was an excellent origin story for how you fell in love with weird, messed up fairy tales.

[Liz Gattaco]

Yeah. What about you? I don't know if you've talked. Have you talked about your origin story before with the pod?

[Adam Gidwitz]

It's an interesting question. So I was a teacher, and one day they asked if I'd be willing to be a substitute librarian for a day. And I said yes, because librarian is the best.

[Liz Gattaco]

This is the best job.

[Adam Gidwitz]

The best job. And they were like, you're going to be telling stories to second graders. And I said, no problem. I teach second graders. And they said, you're going to read them a story. You can read them anything you want. And I said, great. So I went home, and I was looking around my shelves, these shelves right here, for a story to read to the kids, and I came across this book. This is my copy of the real Grimm Fairy Tales. And I had, like, read a couple of them in college, but I didn't know it well. And I opened it up to a story called Faithful Johannes, which I had never seen before.

[Liz Gattaco]

Oh, that's a good one.

[Adam Gidwitz]

You know that one. And in Faithful Johannes, two children get their heads cut off by their parents. They get put back on again, so they're fine. But I was like, that's interesting. Can I read this to second graders? Will I get fired? And then I thought, let's find out.

[Liz Gattaco]

Yeah, right. Why not? Only one way to know.

[Adam Gidwitz]

So I brought it in, and I started reading these kids, and very quickly, they started to get nervous. So I'd make jokes to calm them down or I would warn them something really terrifying was about to happen. And I think I did a pretty good job because by the end of the story, I looked up and every kid had the same expression on his or her face. Every kid looked exactly like this.

[Liz Gattaco]

Like which.

[Adam Gidwitz]

And for the podcast listeners, like, they look traumatized as they look like. And so I dismissed them. But this one little girl came up to me afterwards, and I'll never forget this, because this moment changed my life. She stuck her finger in my face and she said, that was good. You should make that into a book.

[Liz Gattaco]

Oh.

[Adam Gidwitz]

And I went home and I wrote it down, and I sent it to an agent whose kid I taught. Like, I just happened to know this person, and I wrote it, actually, as a picture book.

[Liz Gattaco]

Oh.

[Adam Gidwitz]

And she took it to an editor at Penguin who she knew liked fairytales. And the editor invited me to Penguin, and the editor sat me down and said, it's interesting you wrote this as a picture book. Two things. First of all, it's 4,000 words, which.

[Liz Gattaco]

Is very long for a picture book.

[Adam Gidwitz]

And second of all, two children are decapitated in it. And I said, oh, yeah, right.

[Liz Gattaco]

That happens.

[Adam Gidwitz]

And she said, if you could make this into a novel, I would consider it. And so I turned that into the first chapter of a tale. Dark and Grimm.

[Liz Gattaco]

That's so exciting. So I'm assuming that that little girl gets some royalties now.

[Adam Gidwitz]

She gets nothing. Zero.

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

Oh.

[Adam Gidwitz]

But I still know her. She. Actually, I was. A few years after that, I was doing an event at the. I was at the Brooklyn Book Festival. And I told that story and this girl comes up to me afterwards and she goes, I think I was in that class. And I go, you were the girl. It was.

[Liz Gattaco]

Yeah. Amazing. And that girl was me. No. Somehow we're the same age, but somehow it was me.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yeah. I love that idea though. Yes. We should change the origin story and actual person. Violet, I'm sorry, Liz is taking your place.

[Liz Gattaco]

I'm honored.

[Adam Gidwitz]

I think it's funny that you talked about Anderson.

[Liz Gattaco]

Yep.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Because I have a problem with Anderson. I have a feud with Anderson. Bring it on. He doesn't know about it. Unless he's also seafoam. And then maybe he might know about it.

[Liz Gattaco]

He was a drama queen.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yeah. Yes, he was into the drama. My feud is so. I really love Grimm fairy tales in particular because I believe they dramatize the emotional and psychological shape of kids lives. I didn't make this idea up as a pretty, pretty well known idea first popularized by Bruno Bettelheim, but the idea that like, kids are dealing with really difficult things in their lives and they go through these crazy, weird, scary situations. All of my episodes, all the podcasts, all the stories that I tell, you got a kid you love, they go through something really tough, and then they find a way to triumph at the end. And it feels to me like the structure of childhood. Right? The structure of childhood ideally is, you know, kids, life is tough. You, like, show up in a classroom with a grown up you've never met. You have to do whatever they say. There's a bunch of other inmates, I mean, children who like, could be doing anything to you while the teacher's back is turned. And you got to just navigate all of that. And then the next year we're like starting again. So like they're going. And that's just one example. And then kids do, in the vast, vast majority of cases, grow up and integrate the things they've learned. Ideally, they become like good people. And so that's, to me, the structure of a lot of grim fairy tales. It is not the structure of many Anderson fairy tales.

[Liz Gattaco]

Not at all.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Anderson is like, you know, things were bad and then they got really bad, and then she died of cold and hunger.

[Liz Gattaco]

Anderson is a great reader to read. If you're a kid that's really into schadenfreude, which is this fabulous word that means you like to watch other people suffer. And you know, that sounds really mean, but I'm sure, you know, your little brother, little sister, their ice cream cone drops and you're like, that's kind of funny. That's like the kind of stories that Hans Christian Anderson writes, except very sad. I will say they're weird. They're definitely. There's some weirdness, like with the Brothers Grimm, but I would say that they're largely sad, except for my two favorites, which are the Snow Queen, Happy Ending and the Tinderbox, which is wacky, but happy ending.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Do you want to tell us a little bit of one of those stories?

[Liz Gattaco]

Oh, my gosh. Well, it'll have to be the tinder box, because that one's crazy and it's much shorter. The Snow Queen's very long.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Remind us.

[Liz Gattaco]

In the Tinder box, we meet a soldier who's just coming home from the war. And on his way home, he meets this, like, little old lady giving them witch vibes. And she's like, excuse me, sir, could you please hop down into this tree and retrieve my old tinder box from me? And he's like, I guess I will. And she's like, you're going to meet three dogs down there, and they're really scary. But don't worry about it. I'm going to give you my apron. You just put the dog on the apron. He's going to go to sleep, and you can grab that tinderbox and whatever else is there you can keep that's key. So he hops down that tree and he does. He meets this dog with eyes the size of teacups. And he's here sitting on this apron, and the dog's like, all right, takes a little nap, and there's all these copper coins there. So the soldier fills his pocket with copper coins, and then he goes and he meets a dog with eyes as big as wagon wheels, which is a really interesting visual. Like, is the dog a regular sized dog with huge eyeballs or is it like a big dog?

[Adam Gidwitz]

That's nightmare stuff.

[Liz Gattaco]

Well, it goes to sleep on the apron. It has silver coins all around. You grab the silver coins. And then the third dog, you can probably guess, has gold coins. And his eyes are as big as. Oh, my gosh. It's like this tower in Copenhagen. I can't remember the name of it in Denmark. Anyway, that's where the tinderbox is. When he gets back up on the tree, he's like, so what's the deal with this tinderbox? Like, you seem pretty into it. And she's like, none of your business. And he cuts her head off. He's like, all right, well, she just cuts her head off. This is. This is the hero of our story, folks. He's not always very heroic, you know, I guess in. Sometimes in these old fairy tales, they're like, the only good witch is one whose head's been cut off. So he does that. He takes a tinderbox. Well, not a very nice thing to do, but it works out very well for him because that tinderbox will summon those dogs every time he strikes a match. A tinderbox is. Well, a tinderbox is like a lighter. I would say it's more like a lighter, one of those little clicky ones. And he can some of the dogs, and the dogs will get him whatever he wants, and so he becomes really rich. Along the way, he, like, kind of kidnaps this princess.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Oh, my goodness.

[Liz Gattaco]

There's a way to make it nicer. I think you could make. You could make it a little less. A little less crazy. But, I mean, there's a reason why Anderson is so nutty. Yeah. And. But eventually, the two of those crazy kids get married and.

[Adam Gidwitz]

But she. But does she want to get married after the he. Kids?

[Liz Gattaco]

I think she does. See, I guess things are a little complicated for the princess because her parents are so protective of her. They, like, never let her go out. She never gets to meet anyone. And even though the soldier meets her in kind of a sneaky way that I don't recommend, like, I think he probably should have knocked, maybe knocked on the door and been like, hey, do you want to come hang out with me and my weird dogs? That would be the way I would go about it. And that's how everyone should go about it.

[Adam Gidwitz]

But maybe he was helping her escape.

[Liz Gattaco]

Like, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think so. And so at the end, her parents try to prevent the marriage, and the soldier gets back at them in a real crazy way. And she doesn't seem too sad about it. She's like, all right, let's get married. You know, I think she had a little situation she needed to escape.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yeah. Yeah. So he was helping her escape, and he, you know, murdered one witch, and, you know, he does. A happy ending is a questionable thing there, because if a bad guy is happy, happy. Is it happy?

[Liz Gattaco]

Is it happy?

[Adam Gidwitz]

But is. Is he the bad guy? I know, children, the world is a complex place.

[Liz Gattaco]

You talked about in one of your. Ask Adam Sessions about how the important things to you in a fairy tale that you do have a hero you can root for and that you do have a happy ending and that sometimes you'll finesse. Massage the tales, you know?

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yeah, I rewrite the tales. Absolutely.

[Liz Gattaco]

So, yeah, Absolutely. The tinderbox would require, you know, I think, like, maybe that witch would have to be really scary, and the soldier's, like, defending himself, and that's how she, you know, gets out of the picture.

[Adam Gidwitz]

I do, I rewrite my stories a lot because there are some Grimm tales that are just pretty much you can just straight up tell em and they're great. But for me, you know, the Grimm brothers were just, you know, Hans Christian Andersen was inventing stories, but the Grimm brothers were just capturing a tale at a certain moment told by a certain person. Right. So there is nothing. And then they did edit them and improve them, but there's nothing sacred about the story as they told it. This is in some sense like a cultural inheritance that we all have inherited just by having their book. And so I find that it's absolutely my right, everyone's right to take the ideas from the story and then retell them how we want to retell them, because the person who told it to them was doing that. And so, yeah, I definitely have certain rules that, you know. Yeah, that main character, you got to care about him. There has to be crazy events that are scary but also funny. And then there's got to be some sort of cathartic triumph at the end. And you'd think maybe that makes them feel formulaic, but to me, they're just so weird that there is no end of shocking weirdness that can come out of this fairy tale tradition.

[Liz Gattaco]

Oh, sure. And I mean, the, the big difference with Anderson and Grimm, of course, which you just alluded to, with him kind of creating his own stories, some of which were inspired by folklore and are very similar to some of the Brothers Grimm. But he was doing like, in the, in the, in the academic world, in the big smarty pants people world, you know, we call his fairy tales were literary fairy tales because he was kind of creating these original works. And the Grimm brothers were collecting folklore, which are stories that belong to the people they were collecting them from. You know, and so since they belong to us, whatever version we tell, it's the version. Yeah, it's amazing.

[Adam Gidwitz]

That's right. These are our stories. I love that. I really do. So speaking of telling fairy tales, you are children's librarian. Have you ever intentionally or accidentally told a really messed up fairy tale to kids? Or what is your experience of telling fairy tales to children?

[Liz Gattaco]

I believe in some of my book clubs we've probably talked a little bit about some, like, messed up origins of fairy tales. I've definitely done some shows for teenagers where we've talked about it. And at those events, I really like to get into, like, some of the weirder Cinderellas. Because, of course, the Brothers Grimm versions of stories aren't the only versions. They're all over the world. In fact, there's, like, thousands of versions of Cinderella, all different shoes, all different types of princes that she meets. Sometimes the story doesn't end at the ball, and she goes through a whole sequel part where she gets, like, swallowed by a whale in one version. That's a cool.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Oh, my gosh.

[Liz Gattaco]

Sometimes she gets revenge on her stepfamily. And so I like to tell those versions of, you know, stories. The versions of stories. You know, one version, but here are some of the other ones. And the weird, wacky ways that they turn. And the teens have really enjoyed that.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yeah, I'm sure they do. Teens love vengeance. But you know what? So do kids. We all love a little bit of bloody vengeance.

[Liz Gattaco]

We like to see justice prevail.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yes.

[Liz Gattaco]

And sometimes it does. Darkly.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yes. I was just thinking about the Crabman's Daughter, that episode which I'm gonna record for your social media feed soon. And when I was recording it with the kids for the Grim, Grimmer, Grimmest, at one point, the girls, like, fight back against the king. They become these amazing mermaids. And this girl, just out of one of the children that I was telling a story to, just shouts out of nowhere, we are women and we are terrify, and I'm not a woman. But I. It was awesome. I just felt, yes, that vengeance, that revenge. Oh, so good. So, yeah, that's. That's the feeling we're looking for.

[Liz Gattaco]

Yeah. Well, I have to tell your listeners that their input is my favorite part of your podcast. With all, you know, you're fine, Adam, but the kids are the stars.

[Adam Gidwitz]

I agree. They're the secret. And that's how it came about, actually, because, you know, I told that fairy tale to. To Violet in her class, and then I published the book, and then I'm going around promoting the book around the country. I was doing a lot of stuff in Texas, driving from school to school in Texas, selling my books, and telling them grim fairy tales. And it became clear to me very quickly that the best part was the things that the kids were saying back to me, that I was like, this fairy tale is amazing, and the kids are even more amazing. And so in the early, early days of podcasting, 2017 or something, somebody approached me and was like, would you be willing to. Do you have any ideas for a podcast? And I was like, in Fact, I do. You all need to hear what these kids say when they hear real fairy tales. And so, yeah, the kids are the star. But don't actually tell them that because then they want to talk too much and they get swelled heads. And kids, you're fine. You're just along for the ride. Please stop interrupting me.

[Liz Gattaco]

There's just enough. There's just enough happening. You don't want to overdo it.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yeah, exactly.

[Liz Gattaco]

Well, I actually go through the same thing with my grown up audiences. Grownups experience fairy tales in a very similar way to kids because I do story time for children and then I do story time for adults. I see the responses and, you know, a lot of times my followers will crack jokes about the fairy tale that I'm like, why did I think of that? That was really funny. Or they just relate to it in a way in a new way, similar to your audience, you know.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yeah. And you unfortunately don't get to incorporate them in. But I guess because comments are sort of part of the experience.

[Liz Gattaco]

Yeah. You know, the people, other people can read them and riff off of that. For sure.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yeah.

[Liz Gattaco]

I was storytelling only online for so long and just kind of like talking into my phone and people listening on the other side. That getting to do it live in the past year has been really lovely. Cause it's a really important part of storytelling.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yes, it is a social experience. Absolutely. And you have some public events coming up. Actually, I think that was a transition that we did not plan. But I think you've got two in New York and a couple in Rhode island, is that right?

[Liz Gattaco]

I do. I'm doing a ton of Rhode island events because that's where I am and it's tiny and I can literally go all over the place. In October, I'm coming in to New York to PNT Knitwear. I'm going to be doing a show in Baltimore and Richmond, Virginia, Portland, Maine, mostly northeast places.

[Adam Gidwitz]

That's great. When are you going to be in Baltimore?

[Liz Gattaco]

I'm going to be in Baltimore in November. On November 13th or 14th, I can't remember which.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Okay, awesome. I'm going to be in Baltimore on September 19th at the Enoch Pratt Free Library. 4:00pm, Roland Avenue, everybody. So, yes, unfortunately we will not overlap, but Baltimore, folks, you're being taken care of.

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[Adam Gidwitz]

Did you know that you can listen to Grim Grimmer Grimmest without any ads interrupting the story? Just subscribe to Pinna. Not only will you get to hear me tell these fairy tales straight through the way I tell them to kids, you get access to tons of other awesome original shows and audiobooks, all ad free. Subscribe to Pinna at Pinna FM. That's P I N N A FM and use code GRIM with two M's to get 30% off an annual subscription. And remember, it's not a SM.

[Liz Gattaco]

I'm assuming that your listeners have gotten into your broader oeuvre of works, and if they haven't, they should.

[Adam Gidwitz]

I certainly hope so. Thank you.

[Liz Gattaco]

And so I wondered how fairy tales have influenced the stories that you've told since Tale Dark and Grimm. I can guess how they've influenced maybe your like medieval piece Inquisitor's Tale. Am I remembering that correctly?

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yes, you are right.

[Liz Gattaco]

I was a teen librarian when that came out, so there's like a gap in my knowledge there. And then of course the World War II series. So I just wondered how those stories, which are obviously so important to you, have influenced your work in genres outside.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yeah, that's such a good question. I think two main ways. The first is the most obvious way, which is like sometimes there are fairy tale elements that I am so inspired by that I bring them into the other books. So The World War II books, Max and the House of Spies and Max in the Land of Lies are about. You know, they like take place during World War II. There's a real kid. But on his shoulder appear these two creatures, kobolds. And while I might have first heard of kobolds through Dungeons and Dragons, kobolds in Dungeons and Dragons are very different from kobolds in German mythology. And so through fairy tales, creatures like kobolds became very clear kobolds. One of my favorite, like fairy tale facts ever is. So a kobold in German mythology is a spirit that lives either in your house or where you work and creates mischief and makes your life miserable. And when they were mining this very beautiful blue stone, when they broke it open, poisonous gas would escape and miners would get sick. And they blamed it on cobalts, which is why they named that stone cobalt.

[Liz Gattaco]

Very cool.

[Adam Gidwitz]

So cobalt blue, the color is actually named after the mythical creature of a cobalt. Awesome. Which is. I just. That's.

[Liz Gattaco]

Which is a dragon. Ish creature. Right? Am I right?

[Adam Gidwitz]

No, only in D and D. In.

[Liz Gattaco]

D and D. Oh, okay. They're not outside.

[Adam Gidwitz]

They do look dragonish. But in German mythology, they just look, I mean, like little men or people. They can take all sorts of different forms. Actually, they're like a huge long list of different kinds of kobolds. So generally it's just like a mischief making creature, like smurfs that messes up.

[Liz Gattaco]

That's what you're saying?

[Adam Gidwitz]

No, it's not a smurf.

[Liz Gattaco]

Okay, thank you.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Liz knows the podcast.

[Liz Gattaco]

I do.

[Adam Gidwitz]

But the other way that they really, and much more so in fact inspire my books is the satisfying structure of a fairy tale. From the very beginning, from a tale dark and Grimm structured, how I make my chapters. So at tale Dark and Grimm, each chapter is its own fairy tale and they are woven together into one big story. So each chapter begins once upon a time and ends with at least some sort of happily ever after, even if it continues to the next story. And I've continued to do that in my books so that not all, but most of my books, each chapter should hopefully have a fairly satisfying structure that I learned from telling fairy tales and adapting them into chapters. Because I want you to start a chapter and get into it and be like, oh my gosh, what's going to happen? And then you get this cathartic resolution. Other authors, other wonderful authors do, you know, like page turning chapters where the scene, like a quick scene and you don't know what's gonna happen next and you turn the page. That's fun too. But for me, the way I think about structuring my stories really came from learning and telling fairy tales.

[Liz Gattaco]

Yeah. There is kind of a nice tradition of, like, World War II stories and fantasy, at least. And fairy tale. There's a great book for grownups. The Book of Lost Things, I think, think is a beautiful illustration of that. And Narnia, in a way, I think, you know, you've got. Escaping these horrors of war through the fantasy is.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Exactly. And the movies at Pan's Labyrinth is the same idea.

[Liz Gattaco]

Totally.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Liz Gattaco]

Too scary for me.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Oh, yeah, I love that one.

[Liz Gattaco]

It looks incredible. I'm dipping my toe into scarier movies. I can take in my fairy tales, I guess, but sometimes in movies, I'm like, no, no, too much.

[Adam Gidwitz]

It's very different. It's very different. And we had to think a lot about this because a tale, Dark and Grimm was made into a show for Netflix animated show. And it's very different when, because a book, you choose what you imagine and you make a decision. And the podcast is like halfway between. You're hearing what I'm saying, sort of whether you want to or not. And that's why I give you a warning at the beginning of each episode, turn down the volume and count to five so that you are ready to not hear something if you don't want to. Whereas the book, the easiest thing in the world to do is just to close it. Stop reading it. Every time you open a book, you close it. So easy to do. And then with a podcast, you're hearing it whether you want to or not. Unless you're quick on the volume. But you can still choose what you're sort of imagining on a TV show, it's all being imagined for you. So you're visualizing stuff that you don't necessarily want to, which means that the TV show of a Tale, Dark and Grimm, there's some stuff that is so cool in there, and I love it, and I helped make it. But also, it is definitely not for everybody. I had a friend write to me, pretty close friend, and she was like, so my daughter was watching Netflix and she came in crying because some show upset her. And I was like, what show was this? And she couldn't really describe it to me. And finally I pieced it together that it was your show, Adam. And I was like, I'm so sorry. So, yeah, it's very different.

[Liz Gattaco]

That's the plight of being a children's author of dark stories, for sure. I'm very nestled right now in research for Alvin Schwartz' Dark Scary Stories series, of course. And all of the challenges that people tried to. That people were nervous about with that book and about the Kids who really love it. And about the kids who are like, I'm never sleeping again. Not every book's forever, but it's such.

[Adam Gidwitz]

A good point that, like, terrified me.

[Liz Gattaco]

It's really easy to close a book, put it in the freezer if you don't like what's happening. But, like, with a TV show, you can't stop watching. You're like, it's all happening in front of me, and I can't turn my eyes away. And then, you know, you're. You're scared.

[Adam Gidwitz]

And by the time the things happen that you don't want to, it's already happened. Right. You are always going to turn it off too late. So, listeners, kids, if you don't know Alvin Schwartz's Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark, that's the one, right? That, like, formed. So Liz and I, about the same age. It formed our generation. We all read that book, or so many of us. But it is truly scary. I would say it is grimaced. Every story is definitely grimaced.

[Liz Gattaco]

For sure. For sure.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yeah, it is for kids, but scary.

[Liz Gattaco]

It's grim. So you started, like, breaking into fairy tales outside the world of the Brothers Grimm, and I wondered where else you would like to go. And I have a suggestion.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Oh, my gosh. Okay, I'll tell you where I'm going, but then I really want to hear your suggestion. So all my Grim Grimmer Grimmest listeners know that we do a lot of stories by Franz Ksava von Schoenvert. This book is called the Turnip Princess. What's so cool about Franz Sava von Schoenvert, other than saying his name, which is one of the most fun things you can do, is that his stories were only discovered about 20 years ago in a cardboard box in the Bavarian National Library by a graduate student. And so he collected stories the way the Brothers Grimm did around the end of their career in the 1850s. He was doing his work, and some of the stories are fairly well formed and well told, but because he never got around to editing and publishing them, many of them are kind of a jumble. Like, you're like, what is even happening in the story? I can't quite tell, but the details are so unbelievably weird that it's great material for me to take and reform and then put out there. Like, there was an episode in the new season of Grim Grimmer grimmest called the 12 tortoises. And it's just the whole thing has nothing to do with tortoises until the very end when 12 tortoises walk out, and the main character has to figure out how to transform them back into people, and then it's over, and you're like, what?

[Liz Gattaco]

Sounds awesome.

[Adam Gidwitz]

It is awesome. So, yeah, there's so many examples of his weird, weird stories. Also in season five of Grim Grimmer Grimace, the newest season, I have a guest storyteller join me on an episode. Her name is Sana Ali Mohammed, and she and I tell the Fisherman and the Djinn one of the Arabian Nights stories. That's a good one. Which she heard growing up. It's such a good story. And there's a Grimm version of it, too, but I definitely prefer that version. And Sana and I, she did such a good job of making it super funny. So that's where we've started to expand. But what is your recommendation?

[Liz Gattaco]

Okay, I'll try not to give you too many, but the first one I thought of was Italo Calvino's Folktales From Italy, because he was basically kind of like the Brothers Grimm of Italy. And they're very funny. There's a lot of really weird stuff, and I think that they have the same quality of what you like about Grimm folktales, and I think your kids would like them, too. I'm trying to think. A couple examples. One, there's, like, one about a princess who lives inside an apple. There's one about a boy who is. Well, he's. This is gonna sound really grim, but he's cut in half by a witch, and he lives two different lives, one half one place and one half another place. Yep. That's called the Cloven Boy.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Okay. I have to tell that.

[Liz Gattaco]

Yeah, yeah. There's some really good stuff in there. And there's a lot of, like, familiar things, as well as, like, the Italian versions of Little Red Riding Hood, which is an ogre instead of a wolf, and fun things like that. I also think you should look up Hungarian folktales. Changi Zalka is a great storyteller for those. There's a great YouTube series.

[Adam Gidwitz]

I'm looking at my fairy tale shelf as you're talking. I'm not distracted. I've got some of these here, and I was going to hold them up if I could. Yeah. So I have it. And, like, the Grimm Brothers book. I hadn't read it yet. I haven't read it yet, so. Okay. Turns out I will.

[Liz Gattaco]

Yeah, Leaf through that. That baby. You'll love it.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Yeah.

[Liz Gattaco]

Actually, Italian fairy tales in general are really fun. Some of them are really grim, like. Like Mr. Anderson, but some of them are really fun. And weird. And, like, Pinocchio is a great example of one that's really wacky.

[Adam Gidwitz]

And, you know, a lot of these Grimm fairy tales first appear in collection by a Italian collector named de Bazole, who was collecting fairy tales back in, like, the 1600s. So, like, they go back. In fact, many of them go back to Italy and then even before that. And this is something that I learned while writing the Inquisitor's Tale. Some of them go back as far as something called the Gesta Romanorum, which were these Roman stories that passed through the Middle Ages and then were then written down. So a lot of these fairy tales go way back, even to the Roman Empire and before.

[Liz Gattaco]

Yeah, and some people who are much smarter than me, like, scientists, think that there's evidence that, like, Beauty and The beast is 4,000 years old. Isn't that crazy? You know, some form of. I'm sure it was very different version of it back then, but 4,000 years old?

[Adam Gidwitz]

Well, because I do believe there are. There are, like, you know, all of our cultures are different or all around the world, but there are some very fundamental things that we all share, all humans share. And I found this with the fairy tales. You know, when I go to. I go to Japan or India or, you know, the Texas border with Mexico or Lancaster, Pennsylvania, all very, very different places. The kids respond in very predictable ways to these fairy tales. They scream. They ask a lot of the same questions, often in the same order, because we all share certain things, like, we love our parents. We want to be safe. We want to eat. We are afraid of evil witches and ogres in the forest. All of these things we share. And so they go way back. Okay, those are great recommendations. The Cloven Boy may end up on Grimlock.

[Liz Gattaco]

That's a fun one.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Before you know it, I think it's.

[Liz Gattaco]

Very similar to, like, Han's my hedgehog in some ways. And then. Oh, my last suggestion is you should do some Filipino folktales. And I happen to know a children's librarian who's Filipino who would love to pop in and maybe tell some someday, and that's me.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Okay. All right. I did not know you were Filipino.

[Liz Gattaco]

They're. They're really fun. There's a lot of. There's a lot of folktales where people turn into fruit.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Love that.

[Liz Gattaco]

I do. I would have to find some with a happy ending. I will say that some of them are kind of sad, but I bet I could find them about a companion.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Well, yeah, we'll work on it together. I mean, I like when I do a story with somebody, I love to work together to make it feel like a grim Grim Grimmest episode while also being true to the original fairy tale.

[Liz Gattaco]

Yeah, I'll send you There's a great series of Filipino folktales for kids that you should definitely pick up.

[Adam Gidwitz]

Well, it sounds like listeners of Grim Grimmer Grimmest, this is not the last you're gonna hear from Liz Gitarko. I am so grateful that you have had this conversation with me that I've gotten to have this conversation with you. I am a big fan of your work. Again, grown ups. Check out her book Grownups Only. Her last name is spelled G O T A U C O Liz Gattaco. Go look it up. And yeah, this will not be the last time you hear from Liz, I hope. And of course the new season of Grim Grimmer Grimmest is on Pinna. If you subscribe, go to Pinna FM, use code GRIMGRIM G R I M M for a discount. You can hear it all right now ad free. Or you can wait until September 18th and then you will hear one episode a week with ads. But you'll get to hear them going wide everywhere. You listen to podcasts. I really think you're gonna like this new season, so make sure you listen. Grim Grimmer Grimmest is a Penna original production created, written and narrated by me, Adam Gidwitz, author of A Tale Dark and Grim, produced and edited by Kalyn west, executive produced by Molly Barton and Carly Miluri.