Grimm, Grimmer, Grimmest

Episode: The Two Travelers (Part II)

Host: Adam Gidwitz
Date: November 20, 2025
Podcast: Grimm, Grimmer, Grimmest (Pinna)

Episode Overview

This episode, The Two Travelers (Part II), continues Adam Gidwitz’s retelling of a dark and twisty original Grimm fairy tale. Joined by a lively group of children, Adam explores the repercussions of previous grim events, centering on themes of perspective, fate, guilt, and the balance between optimism and pessimism. With signature humor and honesty, the group navigates spooky (and sometimes gross) details, moral quandaries, and suspenseful plot twists, all culminating in a thought-provoking and truly “grimaced”-level tale.

Key Discussion Points & Story Beats

Recap and Spookiness Warning (00:52–01:50)

• Adam Gidwitz recaps where the story left off—with the tailor in Mantua after horrifying events, warning listeners that this episode is “grimaced” due to “a lot of death. Like, so much death.”
• Offers tips for kids feeling scared—turn volume down, count to five, and check back in.

The Tavern of Three Views (02:59–07:49)

• The tailor enters a tavern full of corpses, yet oddly filled with the sounds of life.
  • [04:32] Child: “What the heck is going on?”
  • Adam invites guesses and observations; one child quips, “Maybe they just had a radio on, like a Spotify noise.”
• The tailor realizes he can see the tavern three ways by covering each eye:
  • Left eye (optimism): Everyone is alive and happy.
  • Right eye (pessimism): People are alive but anxious and burdened.
  • Both eyes (grim reality): Everything is dead.
  • Adam demonstrates this with a cup of ale, and a child astutely says, “It would be all empty,” when both eyes are used.

The Philosophical Eye Patch (07:49–10:13)

• The tailor fashions an eye patch to cover his right (pessimistic) eye, choosing to live in optimism.
• The children debate whether this approach is wise or if balance is needed:
  • [08:33] Child: “I think he should open both eyes so he could see goodly... both eyes show good and bad.”
  • Adam: “Interesting. So he should balance the two ways of looking at life.”
• The tailor continuously switches the patch, struggling with whether to see the world with compassion (pessimistically) or carefree cheerfulness (optimistically).
• A philosophical moment: the tailor wonders, “Could he live as he used to... when others were suffering?” vs. “would suffering along with them do them any good at all?”

Saving the Old Man and Changing Fate (10:13–14:31)

• The tailor sees a future of death (both eyes open)—an old man is about to be crushed by a falling piano.
• With his optimistic eye, he sees there’s hope, so he rushes and saves the man just in time.
• Spectators hail the tailor a hero.
  • [14:39] Child: “My hero.”
  • Curious bystanders clamor to learn how he predicted the danger.

Fortune Telling and the Ethics of Fate (14:31–17:34)

• The tailor reveals his secret; crowds beg to know how they’ll die and pay him for the knowledge.
• Some respond by vowing to change their fate (swearing off drink, avoiding sea voyages).
  • [15:53] Child (mock dramatic): “I’ll never go near the ocean again.”
• The group discusses whether fate can really be escaped.
  • [16:24] Adam: “You can’t escape your fate.”
• Adam points out the contradiction—sometimes fate can be altered (like the piano) but not always.

The Shoemaker’s Guilt and the Search for Answers (17:34–19:36)

• Cut to the shoemaker, plagued by guilt for his betrayal—but guilt only leads to fear and paranoia, not goodness.
• The shoemaker learns of a fortune teller who can foresee death (the tailor, though he’s unrecognizable now due to beard and eye patch).
  • [18:22] Shoemaker: “I should have left him to die in that forest.”
• The children debate whether the shoemaker deserves punishment or pity.

The Confrontation: Shoe vs. Tailor (19:36–23:14)

• Shoemaker approaches the tailor for his own fortune, unaware of who he is.
  • [20:04] Shoemaker: “Please, kind fortune teller, tell me my fate. How shall I die?”
• The tailor hesitates, seeing the profound suffering already in the shoemaker’s heart, and pities him.
  • [21:08] Tailor (as Death): “Some fates are changeable, but others are not. You already live in fear, sir… Maybe you should try to relax a little. Look at life through the other eye for a change.”
• Shoemaker presses for the truth. The tailor, with his odd, mismatched eyes, delivers the verdict:
  • [22:09] Tailor (as Death): “Death will come for you today.”
  • [22:14] Shoemaker: “Today? Is it the tailor? Will he be the one to kill me at last?”
  • [22:25] Tailor (as Death): “In a... way.”

Downfall and the Inevitable Appointment (23:14–29:16)

• Shoemaker flees, terrified, directly into the path of Death—depicted as a literal character.
  • The kids ask: “Who’s Death?” Adam explains the concept of Death as a character, distinct from the devil, whose job is to bring people to the underworld.
• Shoemaker steals a horse, flees through a silent, ominous forest, and—after a desperate ride—makes it almost to Turin.
  • While trying to leap a stream, he falls, is injured, and begins to drown.
  • Death appears to claim him; the shoemaker asks why Death was surprised to see him earlier.
  • [29:07] Death: “Because we had an appointment right here outside of Turin, and I didn’t expect to see you there in Mantua.”
  • Death leads the shoemaker to the afterlife.

The Tailor’s Fate and the Moral (29:16–29:48)

• The tailor lives many more years, switching his view between optimism and preparedness, never peering into his own fate.
• Children react with a mix of awe and desire for another story, demonstrating their love for dark twists delivered with humor and thoughtfulness.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Adam Gidwitz [00:52]: “The original Grimm fairy tales aren’t like that at all. They’re weird and sometimes gross and often scary. In other words, they’re grim.”
• Child [04:32]: “What the heck is going on?” (reacting to the surreal tavern scene)
• Adam Gidwitz [07:18]: “From both eyes, he saw into the shadowy realm of death. He saw how things would end, how people would die.”
• Child [16:03]: “He's going to tell all of them how they're going to die, and they're just going to be fearful for the rest of their lives.”
• Adam Gidwitz [22:09]: “Death will come for you today.” (to the shoemaker)
• Death [29:07]: “Because we had an appointment right here outside of Turin, and I didn’t expect to see you there in Mantua.”

Key Timestamps

• 00:52–02:59 – Introduction and spookiness warning
• 02:59–07:49 – The tavern scene and discovery of the “three ways of seeing”
• 07:49–10:13 – Eye patch philosophy and debate about worldview
• 10:13–12:06 – Saving the old man; altering the course of fate
• 14:31–16:03 – Fortune-telling and whether people can escape fate
• 17:34–19:36 – The shoemaker’s guilt and search for the fortune teller
• 19:36–23:14 – The fateful meeting of tailor and shoemaker
• 23:14–29:16 – The shoemaker’s frantic flight and encounter with Death
• 29:16–29:48 – The tailor’s epilogue and player reactions

Tone & Style

Throughout the episode, Adam Gidwitz and the children maintain a playful, inquisitive, and slightly macabre tone. Adam balances scary, mysterious, and funny moments, guiding kids through dark subject matter with wisdom and warmth. He encourages philosophical exploration (“Should he only look through his optimistic eye? Is a balance better?”), and the children’s honest, sometimes silly commentary adds both levity and insight.

Summary for New Listeners

Even if you haven’t heard the episode, you’ll walk away with a sense of this story’s complexity: The Two Travelers (Part II) uses magical realism (the “eyes” as ways of seeing the world) to explore fate, consequence, and compassion. The narrative is interwoven with children’s genuinely thoughtful questions and remarks, amplifying both the creepiness and the core humanity of this Grimm tale—leaving listeners with much to ponder about how we see others, what we try to control, and how we live with knowledge we can’t always change.