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- [00:05]
A
Yeah. Woke up in the morning and to God be the glory Thankful for another day to tell my story Put my opinions in the universe and let them orbit I'm from the dirty soul with a dirty mouth My knee orbit miss things things on me like a Norbit had to refuse them cause my bitch no rest fusion she gorgeous as I doubt my sons up and kiss my daughter forehead Tell them we gonna get this money to my pocket Sn morbid. Remember living in apartments? Now we playing mortgage. Y' all stop cussing in front of my grandma. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
- [00:43]
B
I thought maybe that's what I had to do on this podcast.
- [00:48]
A
I ain't going to be doing all that, cuz. Well, I might be the first cuss free episode. Absolutely, absolutely. We going to start the episode right at that part where I said stop cussing in front of my grandma. Oh, man. This is Deontay Kyle, host of Grizzly's podcast, who's behind the camera, Big Ice Cupcat. This is episode 100, this very special episode. So normally we would do like a big old celebration or. But I feel like we have to give all the credit to Dr. Cynthia Toles today. My granny. Because without her and without her helping me in the time of need, there would be no Grissy next podcast. So introduce yourself, Dr. Cynthia Toles, the Diva Delta.
- [01:36]
B
I am Cynthia Toles. I live in Gaston, Alabama. I am a mother, a grandmother, and a great grandmother.
- [01:47]
A
So the history. Let's run down your accolades, right? Let's go through all the degrees because we start this story. Start. Does it start in Michigan? You wasn't. You was born down south?
- [02:00]
B
Yeah, I was born.
- [02:01]
A
You went to school up?
- [02:02]
B
I went to Wayne State, but then I came back to Gaston. I went to Gaston State. I got an associate's degree in history and a minor in sociology. I went on to Jacksonville. That's in Jacksonville, Alabama. Jsu. I did not finish my BS degree there, so I transferred to A and M. Go Bulldogs. I graduated from A and M with a BS degree in history and a minor in sociology. Came back to Gaston to get a job, but there were no jobs. You know, if you're a history major. And back in my day, the only way I could have gotten a job in history had to be a coach. So coaches had those jobs filled. But I went back to school. That's when I went back to jsu. I got certified in elementary education. From there, I got a job. I got an eds, I got a master's in elementary education. I got An EDS special degree in elementary education. And I went and pursued my doctorate at the University of Alabama at Birmingham and I got a doctorate degree in educational leadership and the minor is in curriculum. So that's what I did. And then I, I was a principal and I worked there. But I think what I'm really, you know, I retired, but then I went back to school. So I am a paralegal. I finished in 2024 as with a paralegal degree. How about I was going to Hunts for Bible college and I got a degree in Christian education, so that's where I am now.
- [03:51]
A
You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying. The accolades is extensive. Baby. What was the, what was the initial when you went for history? What was your, like, career path? What did you envision getting with that history degree?
- [04:06]
B
I have always been fascinated, never wanted to be a politician, but I was always fascinated with the political, the government. And so my degree in history, well, when I went to jsu, I wanted to be a political science major because I just really wanted to learn about the government. But I ended up going to.
- [04:32]
A
A.
- [04:32]
B
And M and I got a history degree, wanted to be a history professor at a university. But that, you know, that never came about. So I did that in. And I said earlier, but because of my not being able to get a job in that particular field at that particular time, I went back and I got, I love history so. Well, I went back and got 30 hours above my 18 hours in history because at the junior college level or the community level, you have had to have 18 hours above your degree to work at that college because it's basically a liberal arts college. But anyway, so that was kind of the stopping point.
- [05:27]
A
Yeah, that's where you. But you saw yourself being a professor.
- [05:30]
B
And I wanted to be a lawyer. Oh, I didn't. I left out the fact that I went to Birmingham School of Law for two years.
- [05:38]
A
Yeah. So that's why you went back and pursued being paralegal.
- [05:41]
B
That's exactly right. And had I known. And, and I say this to anyone or the younger generation that's wanting to pursue being a lawyer. I know it may take longer, but it's, you know, if you can go and take paralegal courses, that's really a foundation for going to law school, because law school is where you only take one exam and if you don't pass it, you fail the whole program or that particular class. And so I, I was trying to go to law school and be a third grade teacher at the Same time. That doesn't work.
- [06:17]
A
Yeah.
- [06:18]
B
At all.
- [06:20]
A
When, when you talk about. If we can, let's rewind back to like early childhood and like what your experiences was in Gaston, because I know that there's a connection with the Avery's out there that have. Well, you, you. You are. The Avery's is on your side of the family. Correct.
- [06:40]
B
Without they on Audrey and Chuck, my children's side of the family, their father.
- [06:47]
A
But they got a big business presence in Gaston.
- [06:51]
B
Well, one of the Averys is a. He's. He's really a politician and he has run for mayor. He's run. He's been on the city council and he was one of the three young men from Gaston who walked all the way to Washington D.C. when they had the Martin Luther King.
- [07:13]
A
March on Washington.
- [07:14]
B
March on Washington.
- [07:15]
A
So in your early experience in Gaston, because even now in Gaston you can see it's still very segregated. But what was it like? I know we like to talk and kind of romanticize the times either before segregation or before it really hit. But what was your experience like being in a small town in Alabama growing up?
- [07:35]
B
Well, it was, I guess at that particular time. And when you're in the situation or when you're in the events that are going on around you, don't think about them until I guess it becomes history. I. We lived in a neighborhood. People think we say community now, but a neighborhood is where you can do everything in that neighborhood. You can shop, you can go to the doctor, you can go to grocery stores, the movies. You don't have to go out of your neighborhood when you live in a neighborhood. And that's what we did from when I was growing up. But integration changed all of that because I didn't have to go out of the neighborhood to go to the store, to go to the doctor, to go to school. So it was a small town. I was raised and born during the 60s. And so I was a part of that process where they had marching protests, we marched, we went to march at the courthouse, gaining rights and, and working toward that. But that was that small town experience. The signs of segregation had gone away. When I say there was not any colored signs or any white signs, but we didn't have but one black high school. And so children that live on the east side of town, what we call it on the north or the west, they all had to come. I didn't live. I could walk to school. I could walk to the elementary school. Plus we had neighborhood schools. So that was, that was part of the segregation ERA too. But we did everything within our neighborhood and that. So we didn't experience. I didn't experience a lot of the. And when I say a lot of the things that were happening in the marches and the protesting my brother did and my reason for not experiencing because I told my mother, I said if they spit on me, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. So she told me I couldn't, I couldn't participate in the march and in the protest.
- [09:58]
A
You was ready to get out?
- [09:59]
B
Yeah, yeah. I wasn't practicing non violent at that particular time.
- [10:05]
A
Oh, you'd be riding with Malcolm.
- [10:08]
B
Absolutely.
- [10:10]
A
So as you get into we. We talk about the early years in education and childhood education. What was that experience like being one of the few black teachers didn't. Because wasn't the school you went Utah that was a predominantly white school.
- [10:28]
B
When I, when I first started teaching, I taught in a little small town which is about 30 miles from me. It was Ohachi. I was at Ohachie Elementary School and we were in a unit school. And a unit school is where kindergarten through 12th grade is all together. It's not like a separate elementary school or a separate high school at that particular time. And when I went to that school in the elementary school, I can't remember what the size of the school was. And it was predominantly white. It was two black teachers in elementary school and two black teachers in the high school. I was on the. I taught reading, so I was on one level and the second grade teacher was on another level. And that was the same was in high school. So that was my experience. When I moved to Gaston, I taught at an elementary school year Brown and I was the only African American in the building that includes students and teachers. That was a unusual experience. I could, you know, you. They know how to be nice to you and still be indifferent.
- [11:46]
A
Right. That was nice, nasty passive aggressiveness.
- [11:50]
B
Absolutely. I had talk about it sometime, but I had a third grade class and when we came to one particular day, we came from the lunchroom and the teachers were standing in the hall talking to each other. And when they saw me coming with my class, they jumped back into the classroom. That was to keep from speaking to me. Another experience that I had at that particular school was when we all had room mothers and the room mothers or fathers, you know, they were the ones who kind of help you with the class, maybe contacting parents. And we were in a faculty meeting and they were discussing. This is the teachers. They were discussing the gifts and things that they were giving Their room mothers, their room fathers. I had no idea. I didn't know anything about it. So I let them finish. And when they got through discussing it, then I said, you mean to tell me that you all have allowed me to be in this building and you didn't tell me anything about giving room parents a gift or anything? I said, how do you think that make me look? And nobody said a word.
- [13:13]
A
Yeah, it was purposeful, though.
- [13:14]
B
Exactly. But, you know, I explained to them, and I don't. I. I didn't explain to them. I told them, I said, I came here to teach children, not color. I don't want to move in your neighborhood. I like my neighborhood. I came here to do a job. So, you know, eventually when I say not necessary, it sort of relaxed the atmosphere. At least it did for me. Best kept secret. I was the assistant principal at the elementary school. But, you know, nobody else knew that because I was the only black person. And that's. That's kind of difficult at that particular time. I was younger. But when you are in a setting where you are the, you know, the only one, you don't have anybody to talk to or talk your same language. It's kind of difficult. But I was an achiever. Yeah, I was an overcomer.
- [14:13]
A
Oh, well, after that list of accolades, we know exactly what you. How you was approaching life.
- [14:18]
B
Excellent.
- [14:19]
A
Yeah. Was it. Was it difficult or not even about being difficult? Board. Was there a thought process that went into it where it was like, I got to get up out of here eventually. Like, I got to work my way either to being around more people that look like me or teaching kids that look like me or. Or is it just like, I'm gonna go through this process and see where it's gonna take me?
- [14:40]
B
It was basically, go through the process and see what it would take me. When I was at Ohatchee, I had gotten. I don't say despondent, but, you know, I thought, here I am. And I. I said. I said, God, why do you always put me in these situations where I got to fight? I applied for jobs, when I say all over the country. I even applied for an FBI. FBI job. There's a building in Birmingham. It's the building 2121. That's where they do the testing for the FBI. So I go and I apply to be an FBI for the simple reason the application says they will locate you anywhere in the United States or Puerto Rico. Well, I was game for it. I was going to go anywhere. So I go down to the 21, 21 building to take the test. I took the cognitive test. Now, I'm saying this to say I never held a gun in my life. So you have the cognitive test and then you have the gun test where you hold the gun to see how you could squeeze it. Now ask me. You tell me, I'll tell you. I didn't pass the cognitive test, but I passed the gun test.
- [16:01]
A
You a born shooter.
- [16:03]
B
But that was their reasoning for not hiring me. And I thought, you know, that was.
- [16:08]
A
Not passing the cognitive or passing the shooting. They like, yeah, we can't have you in here. You ready to shoot? You a local cop? Now, if you'd applied for Gadsden Police, you'd have been in the game. So how did they affect. I know that it's a very taboo thing to talk about, like mental health and things like that in the black community, but how was, how did it have an effect on like your mental health growing up? And just in that environment where it's like, it's silently hostile, you know, and there could be there. I'm sure you experience disrespect from students and superiors as much as you did your peers.
- [16:53]
B
Well, you know, one thing I learned especially in working in a predominantly white school, those children and I was more one of the one school I went from being in a culturally shocked school to one that was a high end school. Basically in all the schools, they tell the children or they teach the children. The teachers are not like everybody else. So I wasn't, you know, the only thing I did, I saw students in the store when I was in, in Gaston, and they would turn their head and ignore me. So when they came to school, I ignored them and they wanted to know why. I said, well, I saw you in the store and you ignored me. You know, but it did not, I guess not. I guess because I had supportive parents and my parents were always telling us about achieving. You know, our parents didn't at that particular time, as much as it is now, they didn't talk about race. They didn't, they didn't talk about the differences. They were just telling us, to get where you wanted to go. You have to have an education. You need to achieve. You need to, to accomplish something. That's personally my goal now, not to tell young people to, you got to go to college, but I encourage you to get a skill, right? Learn how to do something. They taught us that once you got knowledge, they can't take that away from you.
- [18:38]
A
Absolutely.
- [18:39]
B
And so that was the. And I say, I believe that was the Reason why most of us that have achieved that, have gotten out of that is because our parents didn't focus. They, you know, they fought. Hey, they were more active in civil rights then than they are now. When I say now the parents, now the people, now the parents doing my generation, they were active. They were there. They were voters. They were out there working because they knew that that was the only way that they were going to achieve. And so that's what we, you know, instead of trying to emulate another group, they were telling us, you are just as good and you can go, but we as black people have to go the extra mile. Not fair, you know, not right. A question that I asked and I asked anybody, why are we hated so much? Because of the color of our skin, Right?
- [19:41]
A
Me and Big Head just went through a list of inventions and improvements. And I'm telling you that this country is shaped by our inventions and improvements.
- [19:54]
B
Absolutely.
- [19:55]
A
Already like two inventions that work in theory, but until a black person came and improved it, it wasn't worth nothing. So I think that there may be a certain joy that we carry with us too, where we just are still experiencing joy regardless. We have a good time with each other. We commune with each other. And when we do, you know, we have our own subset of problems, but we also have a lot of joy that we experience with it. We make each other happy, you know, And I think that the goal, the end goal is to create some type of misery within us, and we just not miserable people. And then as much as you throwing at us, we still overcoming. We so resilient, and we're improving the lives of this nation that's around us constantly, right?
- [20:40]
B
Absolutely.
- [20:41]
A
And I think one of the biggest reasons for me wanting you here was because of what you said. Like when we was in a tough spot and we reached out to you to come stay with you, your thing was don't just go get no job, Go get a trade, go get a skill. And you showed me where the education center was and how to get the grant for it. And through me getting that grant and getting that cdl, it changed my life completely. It changed the trajectory of everything I'm doing. And we now advocate heavily for skilled tradesmen. And it's funny, because now that we've been talking about trades and telling young men to go get trades, I've gotten so many testimonials of young men and women that have gone on to go get trades. And electrician, H Vac welding, cdls. I mean, the. The whole gambit, they've Been going out and doing it because they did. I don't even think people just knew, know what I mean?
- [21:43]
B
Like, absolutely.
- [21:45]
A
And without the proper like language around it or knowing what a skill trade is, like people would say, go get a trade, but they won't tell you. That's welding, brick mason, electrician work, you know, union jobs, you know what I'm saying? Journeyman electricians, plumbers, things like that. But we was putting a language to it. And it actually has, it's setting people on a path of like upward mobility. And at that time when you did that, for me, it really did help me not only grow up a lot, but like create some type of stability within myself.
- [22:16]
B
I gotta tell this, I gotta tell this point about them coming. They came in January. It was about, it was, in fact it was Martin Luther King Day and I was visiting a friend. So Kyle Johnson called and asked about coming. I said, no, no, no, no. I said, you all can't come. How about. They had already pulled up in my driveway with everything in the car. But you know, I want to go back to say during my day, vocational school, you know, you hear about, you hear people say, you got to go to college, you need to go to college. You encourage them to go to college. Back in my time, vocation was considered a vocational job or skill was considered sort of like a low class, a taboo. And so we discourage our children from going to vocation and saying, you got to go to college, you got to go to college. Well now to me that's the one thing that has to me has hurt us as a people because we think going. And I was reminded the community college is a college. So if you go to a two year college, you still are going to college, but you got to think about it, research what a teacher makes and research what a technician or a plumber make. I just had the refrigerator people come out because I had an arm on the door that's frozen. Just to come out was $119. And so I'm, I'm, I say I encourage young people look at the skill, the trade that you might be interested in, that you can perform in. And I tell you, you, you can, you know, it's about increasing your wealth, increasing your worth, but still. And then you can have something, remember? And I said it to you, get something that's sustainable.
- [24:25]
A
Well, I ain't gotta, I ain't gotta go. Because it wasn't never really about being on the clock when I was in the truck.
- [24:31]
B
Exactly.
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A
Cause it's like we got A job to do, you know what I'm saying? It's really more about the time you're gonna be doing it.
- [24:37]
B
And wherever you go, they need CDL drivers all over this country. So I was saying, when you get something sustainable, no matter where you go.
- [24:46]
A
I'm gonna be able to get a job.
- [24:47]
B
Yeah, you can market yourself.
- [24:49]
A
Yep. And I think the bigger part of skilled trade is that once you're proficient enough, you can open up your own business. So this go back to that neighborhood, community aspect of it is, you know, you could be working for an electrician company, you could be working for the union, but you can also lend those skills to your neighborhood. You know, somebody having issues with plumbing, they know Mike down the street do the plumbing, they know Tom down here, he electrician. My boy over here, he a welder. And. And I'm having problems with my AC unit. I call my cousin because he a H vac technician, come check it out without having get that. That overly, like expensive surcharge that just come with showing up, you know what I'm saying? Just for the plumber to show up is that's bread just for the technician for the AC unit to show up, the H vac technician, that's bread right off top just for them to come put their eyes on it. So I don't only think about the application of, like, what it can do for you as an individual by how it can lend to your community and the people around you. You know what I mean? And another aspect of this for me is that I think oftentimes when we want to talk about black people in our community and we want to celebrate the life of people, we often try to celebrate people that are just exalted. They have like public figure status. And I think your story and the things that you've done in Gaston, Alabama, as one individual, you know what I mean? Not on the host of people that you know out there and some of the connections you have, family ties wise, but just you as an individual. The impact that you've had in Gaston has been substantial. You know what I mean? You've been a lot of first, Blair. You've been the first black woman to do a lot of things in that county, Etowah County. So I think not only just to celebrate you in that aspect, but, you know, I have a deep reverence for you. Me. And you spent five years just talking. We just talking. Talking everything to politics, to religion, to just what's going on in the local community, to the nation abroad. And it was. It was I, I knew that once we kind of, once we started picking up some traction, the question that everybody had was like, what you gonna do for the 100th episode? And I already told you I was gonna have you on here. So I appreciate you coming.
- [27:07]
B
Well, and, you know, and I appreciate it. And the one thing that I always say about you, and that's the other thing that young people and all of us should do is listen. I appreciate the fact that you didn't just turn me off when I said, you need a stain, you need a sustainability, but you listen, you didn't just jump and do it, but you listened to what I had to say. And then the other thing that you complimented me on was the fact that basically I was open minded. I'm not one track mind to put, you know, all young people down because I made a statement to myself in my younger days that I wanted to remember that I was young one time. Maybe the things that you all do today, I don't do, or we didn't do, but we did something then that our parents didn't like, or the clothes, how we wore our clothes, they didn't like. So I wanted to remember that I was young once, I wasn't innocent, that I did things. And so you have to give the young people, you got to first believe in them. You've got to share your experience with them. One of the things I did as a principal, I had an open. And I had an elementary school, but I had an open door policy in that they could come. Sometimes the secretary didn't like it because they just bypass the secretary and they would say, we talking little kids, we just want to talk to you. And so I was open to listen to what they had to say. I remember two little girls came in, this is K through 5. And we were a uniform school at the time, but they wanted to have a Valentine party, but they didn't. This is third grade. But they didn't want the little kids to come. But I listened to them and I said, well, you know, I won't just limit it to the Lord. It was for everybody. So I went and organized it, got a dj, we had refreshment because one parent said, we paying this. I said, you got a dj? I didn't know I had to go out and buy an outfit. But those kids came in. I mean, they, they enjoyed themselves, but they dressed up like they cared for themselves. That's one of the things that, you know, I don't criticize the, the young people, but I learned something in a workshop over here in Atlanta, you dress for success. And if you want to be successful, you know, that's the reason why today at our sorority meeting we had HBCU day. That's the reason why I have on this. But one of the principles that we have, you have to dress business tire because you come in to take care of business. So when you going to take care of business? Then you dress for success.
- [30:16]
A
Yeah. You need to be reflective of the business. Exactly. One of the most important things that I learned from my mama was about it being a time and a place for everything. And I think that we sometimes confuse the whole come as you are.
- [30:32]
B
Yeah.
- [30:33]
A
As appearance. But the come as you are is like how you are in your mind and where you are in your heart.
- [30:37]
B
That's right.
- [30:38]
A
It's not like, you know, you just walking in any place, any type of way. Because I think that there needs to be a certain uniformity that reflects thought. Right. So if we in a business meeting and everybody in the meeting is in suits and ties and then you coming in street clothes, while that may be radical and rebellious and depending on who you are, you may be able to see success like that if you've already seen success in business. But it also does like have this stick out like a sore thumb type mentality. And humans are very visual people, so we judge off of what we see. Often times, I mean, you know, it may, it may not be the best thing at all times, but there's a certain prejudice we have visually. Like when we see things, we kind of seek for what's out of place. So I, I always remember that like, you know, I would go to interviews in my slacks and my dress up shirt and some, some depending on where it was a tie or something like that. And they would often say, like, I go into space and you'll see people that like, they ain't dressed up like that or they, they, they like semi casual, like street casual. They might still wear some jeans or some sneakers. And I don't heard plenty of comments about folks just like, man, you, you know, you ain't have to dress up like that. You have to do like you. I was like, man, I'm dressed up for success, man, you know what I mean? Because this is something that was echoed in my house growing up. So it's, I think while we can reserve criticism, cuz I'm starting to get to that age too where people get fixed at 35, you know, it's, it's sad because your birthday just passed. How old did you turn?
- [32:22]
B
I turned 78 years old.
- [32:24]
A
There you go. So I think at 78, for you to have an emphasis on remembering your youth, I'm guided by that because I know who I was just five years ago. I know who I was 15 years ago. And these is. At each stage is a totally different person, you know, because who I was at 25 wasn't like who I was at 20. Same thing could be said about 30 and 35. But I always want to be mindful of the fact that I was extremely rebellious when I was younger. And not only rebellious in the way that I thought, but in, like, how I chose to do things right. Like, oh, they saying, we got to dress like this one. Going around, I'm addressed the opposite way. And I'm doing, like, things like that. But I also understand that that is a form of rebellion, kind of pushing back against authority. But once you get to a certain age, it. It's not even about compliance. It's about the want for success. Like, I want to be successful in the States. I'm gonna take it seriously. Like, if these are the conditions, this is that when in Rome, you know what I'm saying? We're gonna be Romans.
- [33:25]
B
Absolutely right. Absolutely.
- [33:29]
A
Upon. Upon your. How did you make the transition from being a teacher into being a principal?
- [33:37]
B
One of the things was my observation. And I always say to anyone, at one time, I was sitting on the side of the desk with this as a teacher, and the principal was on the other side. What I wanted to do was to. I saw some things that I wanted to make changes on. And in order to do that, you know, as they say, or as Shirley Caesar said, Shirley Chisholm says, you either have a seat at the table, if not you the menu. So I saw things that I wanted to change as a teacher, and the only way I could change those things is that I had to become an administrator. It's a difference because the saying is true. It's lonely at the top. You have to make decisions where you made decisions for your classroom. You may have 30 children, 20 children now. You have to make decisions that's going to affect the classroom, the teacher, the parents, and even the community. Because the school I was in was a community, was a community school. And so the difference that. And I think one of the major difference is in Alabama, you work for three years and you hire the first, the fourth year, and you get tenure. I can let you go in the first, the second, and even the third year. And I don't have to give you a reason. That kind of Bothered me. That disturbed me. Because if I'm a teacher and if I'm doing something that's wrong, then why can't you tell me or correct me? That was one of the major reasons why I wanted to become an administrator. The other thing is because, you know, I enjoyed. I enjoy children. I enjoy making a difference in children. And I know it's just for this patient podcast, but I was a disciplinarian. I had a paddle. I used my paddle. And you'd be surprised that I went back to. I went to A and M. To a ball game. Two former students ran out of the stadiums. Dr. Toles. And I said, hey. So one boy told the other one bent over. I said, so that's how you remember me, you know, they said, yes, but back to the other reason about teachers and not. And letting them go. So my goal was to. I could not officially tell them I was letting. If I let you go, it's because you didn't attempt to change. You didn't want to change. But I always try to show them performance to be better, and that way I could, you know, if a teacher, If I let a teacher go, then they totally did not want to change for the betterment of the children. They always say, you better not go to Dr. Toll School because if you don't care about the children, you don't get to stay there very long. I cared about the children. I. I listened to the children because they were human beings and I treated them like they were human beings. But I also had a great expectation out of them. And I really, you know, as they became accustomed to me, I didn't have any. I really didn't have a whole lot of problems as I grew up in the school system, because I did. I disciplined kids. I said, if you get put out in the hall, I ask no questions. I saw one little boy at the wall could have opened up. He was trying his best to get inside the wall. But I had a great time. I was a principal for 17 years. Then I went to Nigeria and I was a principal there for a year. Had to come back because my brother had bilateral lung transplant. But it was a whole different. I went from a school that had every piece of technology to Nigeria where you all, you know, the type of carpenter pencils, that's the type of pencils that they use. They didn't have books. They copied everything off of the wall. And I guess what amazed me, zero discipline problem. But it was a. It was a major difference. But they hadn't. They had no TVs they, they had, they had nothing. But they were, they weren't unhappy. They didn't, they never, they didn't know what snow looked like. I was there. Nigeria only has two seasons, a rainy season and a dry season. So they had not experienced that. But that was a great experience for me educational wise. I tried to get some books from a publishing company but it's so expensive. Shipping, shipping is expensive there. But that was my experience at Nigeria in a school that was the communion school. In fact, I went to Nairobi, Kenya to an educational conference and that's where I met a lot of administrators from all over the continent of Africa. And that's how I ended up going to Nigeria, by meeting those. But my principal times here in the States. And there was a great experience for me because I was helping to shape young people lives and I still do that. I tutor right now in any way I can. You know, I help.
- [39:53]
A
Were you ever recognized by the city of Gaston for like excellence and things like that?
- [39:58]
B
I was when I was at U of Brown. I was the teacher of the year for that school. I was given an award by. It was an award of excellence. So I have, you know, I have received awards. I was also the board that I was on. I was on the national association of elementary School Principals. And so we met in DC Quarterly. But I was recognized for that. And so I've been recognized. I went through as a city council member. I was city council on city council for eight years. And so I went through the municipal certification training and I got awards for that.
- [40:45]
A
Okay, you go from. So you go from the teaching to principal retired in Gaston, you went immediately to Legos Nigeria. I remember your experience over there because you was talking about how like it was a culture shock for you, not only in school but just in how they was running the city and exactly how they put you up. Like you had your, you had your driver and you had, they pampered you. But it was still like I didn't.
- [41:13]
B
Care my purse for a whole year. I didn't carry anything. They, they, I mean they were, they're nice people. You know, they don't really. And what I, in, in Nigeria and I, I know that you'll have people that have all different kinds of views when I say this, but we don't know. Even though we're all up in the air now in America, we don't know how blessed we are. I, When I went to Nigeria before I went, I had to have 13 shots when I went to. They also CDC gave me, gave Me a prescription. And I had to take malaria pills once a week for 52 weeks. I was told even when I take a shower, don't even open my mouth. So our bodies cannot handle the malaria or whatever they have, you know, over there. We are not totally grateful. You know, when they say God bless America, I say God bless America, too.
- [42:34]
A
Yeah, because you said sometimes you'll be like, just chilling and everything. Just go black.
- [42:40]
B
Exactly. They. They. I have some Nigerian friends, they're doctors, and they said that the generator people and the electrical people are in cahoots. It's not about you paying your bill or not. If they decide to cut your lights, cut the lights off. And we talk about all over the city, then they could stay out in the villages. They may stay out for two weeks in the city. They may cut the lights off. Or you can just be sitting there and everything and just go dark. But if you don't have a generator, then you don't have any power or anything. And so you're basically. You're basically in the dark. Diesel. And she said, diesel. You know, diesel fuel is high even here. Well, it's high there. And so that was, you know, that was one of the. You know, that was one of the things my experience there was. They. They told me not to talk. Always have a drive, always had. I didn't really realize how much danger I was in until I came back to the States because I. Somebody was by my side every day. I couldn't go anywhere without somebody with me. When I came back to America with my brother and was back. In fact, it's been 13 years this month because his transplant's anniversary was yesterday. Boko Haram went in. That's the Muslim guy. He went into school Western because he didn't want any Western influence and killed 50 students and two teachers in their sleep. Because he didn't. Because they don't want any Western influence. They don't consider. They didn't consider me an African American. They don't consider any of us an African American. We are just Americans. And so they kidnap Americans. And that's why I didn't realize how much danger I was in. In fact, and I don't know if I've ever told my family this experience, but I was going to a school supply store to get some supplies because the children didn't have some things. I had a driver. I was sitting in the back. And the police. We think police is over here bad. Anyway, they stopped us. I still didn't say anything. So they were taking us into an area. But it was extortion. It was to take. It was to take money. And they wasn't going to let us go. And so I said, well, take me to the American embassy. He said, oh, you can talk now. But I had to give them all the money I had on me. I did not know that you can't go over there and take pictures, just like we Shooting pictures here, just like we hold. Like, you can't go over there and take pictures because they took my camera. They told me that I could be a spy for Boko Haram. So you have to get. You have to get permission. So that's the reason. It's just a lot of little things. Nigeria is not a country that you just go and visit. You basically have to be invited to that country because they have to know where you're going. When I went over there, they take your passport. So I couldn't just jump up and leave the country. So here again.
- [46:30]
A
Oh, so that's a. There's a.
- [46:32]
B
Well, that was a work thing. And I guess, you know, I was supposed to have been over there for three years, but other things came up. But they took my passport. Yeah, you know, I didn't think anything. I mean, I went to Nigeria Green. I went to Nigeria because all we've ever talked about growing up is the motherland, the mother country. So to get an opportunity to go to the. To the motherland. And I'd all, you know, I've been to Nairobi and to go over there and work. I just thought it was exciting. So I. I didn't do no research. I just got what.
- [47:11]
A
There wasn't an even exchange of, like, good and bad as far as, like, what your purpose was.
- [47:14]
B
Yes, it was. Yeah, it was. The purpose was. It was good. And I still have. I still have teachers who contact me and we talk through WhatsApp and also through Facebook. So it was a good. It was a good experience. When I said I made a difference. I know that I made a difference there because the teachers, they wrote a poem. They hated to see me go. But there was a negative atmosphere with the administration and how they talked to the teachers. And I changed that atmosphere. But it was good. I would say it was more good than bad. I don't know if I would. If you ask me if I would go back, it would only be because I, as all Americans, are spoiled to the amenities. I don't know if I could handle the amenities again. There was 85 to 90 degrees every day. I never like locks or braids and you don't ever say what you won't do.
- [48:28]
A
Yeah. Because when you insist the lock on them, I ain't know what we was going through.
- [48:32]
B
Well, I had to get braids over there.
- [48:34]
A
Right.
- [48:35]
B
Over here we pay 2, $300 for braids. They did a design, I had braids. It was. Cost me $12. But it was, it was a good experience. I wouldn't discourage anybody from going because everybody needs that experience. But it's. I would just say what I didn't do is do your research.
- [48:59]
A
Right?
- [49:00]
B
Yeah.
- [49:00]
A
Big cat finna go to Ghana. That's the first, that's the first stop. We want to go to Ghana.
- [49:05]
B
Well, everybody said that that's a good, you know, that's good to me. And I learned this. And I can ask you the question, do you hear of anybody's going on a tour, a trip to Nigeria?
- [49:16]
A
Not really.
- [49:17]
B
Nigeria is not a tourist country.
- [49:20]
A
Right.
- [49:20]
B
Ghana would be. You have a lot of people going to Ghana.
- [49:23]
A
They, they offer citizenship in Ghana too, to Americans.
- [49:27]
B
Nairobi, Kenya. That's a good, that's a good country to go to. Right? Yeah.
- [49:34]
A
A big theme about, throughout your career is about giving back, being like a pillar in the community, but also like just wanting to lend your skills and your services for the betterment of people. How long was it when you came back. Cause you came back for your brother, but how long was it before you decided, all right, I'm gonna run for city council now? Like. Cause you was just you sitting up, you like. Cause I remember when you called her, you said, like, I'm campaigning. I'm like campaigning for what? You're supposed to be retired.
- [50:09]
B
It wasn't. In fact, when I came back, it was 2013 and the election cycle started for 2014. I had a friend talk to her daughter today. She told me, she said, you're running for city council. I said, I didn't know that. She said, well, your name is already out there. So anyway, I ended up filing to run as a candidate for city council and being a principal paid off. I would go and knock on doors and the children would say, I can't vote for you, but my mama gonna vote for you. So I ended up, you know, I did two terms, good experience. Now they would like for me to run again. Absolutely not. I said, no, my family is not too keen about that.
- [51:01]
A
Yeah, yeah. They start treating you a little fail towards me.
- [51:04]
B
Yeah.
- [51:05]
A
I wasn't rocking with it neither.
- [51:06]
B
Yeah.
- [51:06]
A
I think one of the biggest things, because it's a four year term, it's a Four year term, you was close to the seat of the mayor. He was like the mayor's right hand.
- [51:16]
B
Yeah.
- [51:16]
A
And towards the end of your career, you did have thoughts about running for mayor, but that whole Emma Sampson thing kind of threw that whole thing for a loop.
- [51:27]
B
Well, you know, I never had thoughts. I was, my last year on the. My four last four years on the council, I was the council president. And so that was next to the mayor. And I just. My thing is. And one of the things that I encourage our people. And it was said today, registration is fine and we need it. But what we need more is the people. We got enough people that's already registered, they need to go out and they need to vote. But the other thing they need to do, we need to do research as a people. We need to find out what the law says. People think that you can do a lot of things, but you need to say you need to find out what the law says about a lot of things. And I think that this is where, you know, a lot of things can come in. We were. The controversy came about here. We were putting a. Putting a plant in a city that was going to increase the income of families, but there was a segment that did not want it. And so here, this plant didn't come here. Move to another city in Alabama, a million dollar plant. But you had part of my people that were against it because they were listening to the other people. And that's where the, you know, that's where the controversy came in. But, you know, being. You have to do your research and, you know, and that was good part. You know, I enjoy being on the city council.
- [53:11]
A
Yeah.
- [53:12]
B
I learned a lot legally and I learned a lot about government. Remember, I told you earlier in this conversation that I always wanted to learn about the government, the three branches of government. I wanted to learn how it operated. And that's why I went into political science, where being on the city council was, you know, with just a little nugget that I was able to gather from just being interested in politics.
- [53:40]
A
Yeah. We're going through a midterm election right now, midterm election season. And so I've been asked to speak at several different panels about black men, specifically voting and the patterns of black men voting. And one of my biggest sentiments is that it can't be a relationship that is only, like, engaged with every two to four years. Right. So if we're keeping it reserved to, like, because. Because it feels very transactional. Right. And without the education about what's going on in your Local city, which I would say in a place like Gaston, operates totally different than Douglasville, where I'm at, in comparison to, like, if we was to compare Birmingham to Atlanta, the cities out here operate differently in the sense that they seem all like one big conglomerate of Atlanta. Whereas with Birmingham, everything doesn't feel like it gets sucked into Birmingham. It feel like every city has its own identity and operates its own way. And that was a big fascinating thing for me because the politics locally in Gaston were paramount, you know what I mean? To the people that live there, there's a lot of engagement and activity. So, like, you can't just, like, fly by with your constituents, whether they be young or old.
- [55:05]
B
Absolutely.
- [55:06]
A
And I think when I'm. When I'm out here, even if I live in Douglasville, there's a lot more talk about what's going on in the city of Atlanta than there is Douglasville. And it's like, that ain't. You don't live there. So those policies corporately, like, with the corporate money, may affect some somewhat with your life. And, you know, them extending the rail line or not or whatever public transportation city, it does have an effect on the cities around it, but it's not anything you can vote to affect. And I always just tell people, like, vote where. Where your vote is effective. Right. So, like, the. Every four years, you could be more effective on the national level if you see that as an option. Right. Like, a lot of people feel like they vote don't matter, and it's because they only vote every four years. So they only engage in politics every four years. So it's like if you. Not. If you don't engage one of those election terms, you really don't feel like it matter at all because you ain't engaged in it. But if you stay engaged in your local politics, you can see the difference. Because how much influence did you have on the community center being put in East Gaston?
- [56:20]
B
Yes.
- [56:20]
A
Yeah. So. But. But before you in that seat, there ain't even no talks of a community center over there. While we see there ain't a whole lot of public recreational sports going on.
- [56:31]
B
Right.
- [56:31]
A
There's not a lot of activity or outreach activities for kids. There's skeletons of those things from the past, but they don't. But they're not active. And by. You focus on the community first. Like, they got a community center and the kids thrive out there now, you know, and they had somewhere for me to take my kids after they got out of school.
- [56:49]
B
Right.
- [56:50]
A
And I think that same energy got to Be put towards, like our, our collective. Like the body is made up of a bunch of different parts. And like, if we just focus on our part and what cities we live in, we can actually make a difference outside and influence people to change how they approach politics as well.
- [57:11]
B
Think of the foundation. In order for your house to be built and it be solid, framed, good, there's got to be a good foundation. So take politics. The local is your foundation. They don't know how important the local is because the local elects the Congress, the state. And so for people to say, I'm not going to vote in the local election, they don't know how that's not effective. I said to one guy who was saying he wasn't going to vote because his vote didn't count, I said, but then why are they working so hard to keep you from voting? He couldn't answer that. So, you know, those are things to, to think about. I don't know if you and I haven't totally. I read. I started reading this book when you said something about black men. I started reading this book, Grifter, and in it, the author said, stephen Banner is a guy that he had just got out of prison, but he made the statement now, here we had this election. We just had this election, so this book is already written. He said that if the Republican party can get 25% of the black men to vote Republican, they can rule for the next hundred years. Well, in this, they got 20%.
- [58:47]
A
They got 20.
- [58:49]
B
And, and, and I'm, I'm saying that one of the things that we are guilty of as a people is that whatever they want us not to know, they put it in a book because they know that we're not going to take the time to read it. You know, that's the reason why contracts are made so thin, because they know we're not going to read the, the fine print. That's a good, that's a good question that you were talking about. A good question to ask about black men and their thinking or their feeling. And that's not all black men, but the ones who fall in that category. You know, why do they think like they think or feel like as far as politics or as far as voting is concerned or as far as what's going on in this country, you know, we use all kind of scapegoats. But the thing is that's. That's what we had back in the 60s, is that we weren't worried about what other people thought it was how we were going to accomplish right how we were going to, to make it, you know, and the thing about it, back to neighborhoods. We pulled each other up.
- [60:05]
A
Right?
- [60:05]
B
We pulled each other, we helped each other.
- [60:07]
A
Correct.
- [60:08]
B
You know, we were family.
- [60:10]
A
Right.
- [60:11]
B
We were, that was the foundation.
- [60:13]
A
We was willing to go out of our way. Exactly. Everything wasn't about convenience, it was about need.
- [60:17]
B
Right, Exactly.
- [60:20]
A
It got me wondering when you said the 25%. And then I was thinking about my statement of engaging with black men over the course of a four year term or two year term, the four year being the more pivotable one as, as far as how it affects us nationally. And I was like, oh, they. So the reason why they was able to get that number even to 20 is because they were engaged with black men, but indirectly. Right. So there's a movement called the red pill movement and it's, it's this manosphere. It's, it's really. So it addresses first with the woes of being a man. Is this is how they get you an intraport. Nobody cares about men's feelings. They don't, they don't put the color on it. And oftentimes it'll be white men speaking about this, but they speak about how to improve yourself as a man. So it'll be, you know, it'll be going, going to the gym, getting a routine, how to figure out how to make some money for yourself. And, and it would be done in conjunction with despising women. Right. Like women only want. So, so there's like a lot of contradictory stuff. All these women want is gold diggers, wooty woo woo. And then it's also how are you going to become the type of man she would want? So it's odd parallel, but it got me thinking about it because they were engaged with men and they weren't. It was a catch. All right? Anybody who felt lonely, anybody who felt like this country didn't care about them or they weren't being courted by the opposite sex because they didn't have enough money or success or status and all these. So they're engaging with men at this level. And so when it came time for politics, it's like. And we're. And we're also all Republicans. So you already immersed in this community, right. And the community is based on this thought and this thinking process that's ultimately a Christian nationalist white supremacy thought process. And white people like to hide under the umbrella of Christian nationalism when it's really just white supremacy because they don't do nothing. Christ. Like. So I'm thinking about that like, that's how they stayed engaged. They stayed engaged through rhetoric that was a mass exodus out of, like, whatever the black community or Democratic people would be talking about. Because during that course where they're telling me, and, like, you need to go to the gym. You need to make more money. You need to focus on your career, focus on yourself, building yourself up, being mentally strong, all these different things. The discourse in our community was about how dangerous niggas is, you know what I'm saying? Like, how dangerous men are and, like, how dangerous the black man can be. But it's also to hold to account, like, some of our actions and things like that. And you want to go where it feel good. Right? Over here, they exalting me. Over here, they criticizing me. And even though the criticism is a criticism of behavior that we need to get rid of, it's so much easier to go where you just being celebrated, right? And then there's easy steps like, shit, I just got. I'm a workout. You know, I'm not gonna give my money to women, and I'm a vote for Donald Trump. Cause that's ended up really where it ended up being. And I think you see a lot of buyer's remorse from the right, because it's been 10 months. And I mean, right now, they holding no kings protest because they treat this man like a king, and he can't do no wrong. And there's obvious health decline. There's an obvious cognitive decline that's happening. The same things we complain about with Joe Biden is the same thing we complain. I just want to see old white men out of office.
- [63:55]
B
In general, back to elementary school, I see the value in men. And so I tried to do that in my school. I did two things. One thing, I took the coin from the Million Man March, and I had the Million Fathers March, and I went to the city council, and I basically asked them to encourage businesses to allow fathers on the first day of school, if you were a father, uncle, or a brother that was 18 or over, to bring your child to school. I had about 30 fathers to bring their father, bring their children to school, because children need to see the fathers interact. So the other thing I did, I call it Men's Day Thursday. And that was where they could come. They would eat lunch, and the kids who. Parents, brother, uncle, could even be a friend, but they would come and they would come, and they would. And they were excited about it. So, you know, we have to do things to encourage our young people as well as encourage. Encourage our men. They Let them know that they were important, but they were the most important thing in their children's lives. And so I wanted to see them. It went so well that the girls got jealous and I had to have Women's Day.
- [65:27]
A
I think that that's a one big fault on our end, right? Is that so? Like with me and Big Cat, the, the themes that I run the show on, like, one of the most controversial takes I had is about men being accountable for the actions of other men. Like, if you see something, you should say something, you should do something. If you homie making the girls feel uncomfortable, you see them being too aggressive or just outright disrespectful because he can't take rejection. You need to step up as a man and check your homeboy, like. Cause that ain't right. And I got a lot of backlash for that, but. And they called me a panderer and they said, oh, you just pander into women and woo, woo, woo. And it's like, I love black women, but this ain't about pandering, it's about improving us. So at the same time, if I'm doing that criticism, I'm also saying, go to college, go to get you a trade, you know what I mean? Go get in a skilled trade, you know, and make sure you taking care of your main thing and, and that you are finding yourself financially stable as a man, you know what I mean? So you can get the things that you want out of life. If you got kids, you need to be able to provide stability for them above everything else. Right? I think one of the biggest sentiments that I've heard friends express, especially my friends that have fathers in their life, is that, yeah, we might not have had a whole bunch of money, but like, it was consistent, you know what I mean? Like, I ain't had the best shoes and clothes and all that, these overly material things, but I had stability in my home. My daddy was there, you know what I'm saying? Like, I had my game and stuff, like the, like the basic wants that I would want, but I wasn't overly material. But you also see these men, as they grow older, they splurge on materials because they can, because they father set them on a path to like, go get some independence and that that independence comes through the finance. Like, if you can't take care of yourself monetarily, especially in this country, things gonna get a little shaky for you. And so I think that we do like a, like breaking down the build up. And I think a lot of our community is just Breaking down and leaving the pieces. Like, we not, we not engaging with these men after we break them down. We just like, all right, now that you know why we don't like, you figure it out. And it's like the other side is breaking these men down because they'll talk to you crazy. Like niggas like David Goggins, you know what I'm saying? He'd be like, oh, you a bitch, you're a pussy. Like you woo do, whoop, whoop. And like, like the, the Joe Rogans, the, the, the Gary Vee's, the, these different people that speak with this rhetoric that's like chastising men, but it's also giving them solutions on how to be better. I think over the last two to four years we've been chastising black men, but we haven't had any solutions on how they could better engage with us. And so you gonna feel thrown away. And when you feel thrown away and then you go to these other communities and they're like, well, yeah, you do need to like take some personal accountability and build yourself up. But this is how you do it when it's happened, when it, when they be like, and also we all voting for Trump, nigga. Like, yeah, all right, we voted for Trump. Like, that's my guy. Because the people that's been supporting me through this isolation or this, like, because there is a male loneliness epidemic. And I think that it's, it's built up online. But the more you talk to yourself and you tell yourself you lonely, then you isolate. Yeah, right. So like it's a psychology behind it too. If I just tell you it's a male loneliness epidemic and you be like, damn, I ain't, I ain't seen or heard from nobody in three days. I'm lonely too. You just buy into it. It doesn't have to be a reality, right? It's nothing to go outside. And that's another thing we talk about to combat that male loneliness is like local fame. Go to the same places, visit the same places, getting a routine of meeting the same people all the time to the point where like this right here. It's a, it's a, it's a, I drink a matcha, but I go to this one coffee shop and get the same masha. It's a black owned coffee shop, Kumbaya coffee shop. It's called Kumba. But we be joking on it about Kumbaya. But it, but it's the Kumba coffee shop. And when I go in there, they already know what I'm there for. And so like we can have conversation instead of just thinking about what I'm ordering. It's a, it's a vibe, you know what I'm saying? Because they feel like I know them and they know me. And that's how you kind of engage with community on a, on a small micro level. I think in your neighborhood too, it's like I know all your neighbors, I know everybody on your street. Because people make it a point to at least say hey when they drive past, even if it's not a constant engagement. And I think that there's been a thing where it's like, because we feel like our communities online have expanded, expanded so much, we ignore our real world communities and we isolate ourselves. And that's not a black man, black woman thing, that's a people thing. We have like isolated ourselves to the point where anywhere we get attention, we just gravitate towards there. And then oftentimes it's a feedback loop of whatever your entry point is. So if your entry point is racism, if your entry point is misogyny, if your entry point is whatever it may be, it's people that's encouraging that way of thinking. And you never can get out of that way of thinking. Cause you don't have anything opposing it. And I think when we speak to like engaging with people during these midterm elections or these every four year elections, the reason why people don't know the power or the influence that they have in their own communities because they're not really active in them.
- [71:00]
B
That's true.
- [71:00]
A
You know, and, and back to your point about neighborhoods, if I got the same doctor as you, if I got the same dentist as you, if I go to the same grocery store as you, is the likelihood of me running into you is like often, you know what I mean, we go to the same schools, our children go to the same schools. And I think now everything is so corporate and privatized that there is no local spots where people like, you know, if you can go to Walmart and get your groceries and get your everyday needs, but it's, it's, it's, it's 5,000 other people going and doing that same thing at that same Walmart to the point where after you walk in and you don't recognize the first 10, 15 faces, you just get on about your business and then you got the blinders on, you ain't starting. Who in there? And we don't have like these things that our mom and pop, everything's been like bought up and privatized and corporatized to the point where it's like what's left for the citizens of any community, not just the black community, but like the Americans at large. And I think that they've done a good job of, like, turning all business into, like, competition that stomps out anything local.
- [72:06]
B
Relationships and communication. Two keywords. Communication, relationships. That's one of the things that the black community had, and they definitely had it. When I was growing up, in. Growing up and in the 60s, it was communicating. It was relationships. Fathers, you know, very rarely do. We didn't go out of the house because we sat down and ate breakfast together. We ate dinner together. It wasn't. Mama cooked this for you, Cooked this for you. Whatever she cooked, we all had to eat it. I grew up, and that's not the case with everybody. I grew up in a family with a mother and a father and two brothers. So, you know, I don't know how it is to not be in a family without a father or to be in a family without a mother. So I can only, you know, speak for what I know. But that was. That was the relationship that we. We had. My father worked and. And something else that we were talking about, about caring and about building up men and. And relationships. It starts young. It starts when they were a boy. My father was not an affectionate type of person. I come from a family where we do a lot of hugging, but my father was not a hugger. And I realized that my father didn't, you know, he didn't hug me. I knew that he loved me and he did for me. So I came after I got children and I have a son. And I thought, you know, I don't want my son to grow up and not have some type of affection, not have some type of caring. So I went home that day and I hugged him and I said, I don't want you to think that this is not normal. This is. This is normal. You got to show people affection. Go back to relationships and. And communication. So I think that that's part of what's lacking in our. In the generation now that, you know, it's not. It's not a lot of relationship, an individuality. And I know we all are individuals, but it's still. But the family unit is the foundation. Everything starts at the home, absolutely everything.
- [74:37]
A
And I think the imbalance in the home oftentimes and. And this isn't even about single parent households. That individuality will stop your kids having communication with their uncles, with their cousins.
- [74:49]
B
Absolutely.
- [74:51]
A
Oftentimes now we approach a mindset of, well, if you just don't agree with me or we can't see eye to eye about certain things, I'm going to cut you off. Now if the disagreement is seeking to harm somebody, whether you disagree with their lifestyle, you know, because we know this within our family. Like we have a plethora of characters in our family. Like whether that be gay, lesbian, you know, people that don't believe in God, people that do. But there's never been like a thing where well, if you don't think like me, I'mma just cut you off. It's a. Okay, I don't get this. But we family and we're going to overcome it. And it's never approached with disrespect. And I think that thing is, is like a lot of people's experiences that when they aren't, aren't in a group think with their family, that it becomes very disrespectful. You know what I mean? And I' ma say that much like you. When I was growing up, there was no affection. I don't think my mother told me she loved me until she moved. You know what I'm saying? When my parents split, I need to make the distinction. So this is not my blood grandmother, but this Deanna grandma. But me and Deanna been together since we was 19. This is my grandma. I'm 35. This is my grandma. And you have been. The same year I met you was a year after my maternal grandmother had passed. So I just. You became my grandmother. Yep. And you don't tell people I'm your grandson in law neither. You just be telling them folks I'm your grandson.
- [76:28]
B
That's right.
- [76:28]
A
All right. Because we on the same page like that. So. But I, I made it a point that when I had my kids, like I'm gonna tell them I love them, I' ma hug them, even if it is embarrassing to them, kiss on them. Yeah, all that. Because the devoid of that, it will. When, when the only time you get attention from your parents is when you in trouble. It do feel like they hate you a little bit. Like damn you folks don't. They don't like me. These people don't like me. And I'm. It's my routine. I just go, it's Emery room, corn room, con room. Every day I wake up going there, wake her up, kiss on her, hug on her. I just make my rounds. So everybody know that we, we up, we getting our day started. But it's love, it's love at the top of the day. And I had to catch myself sometimes from being overly critical of kids in the morning. Like, you can't criticize your kids in the morning because I know I come from that too. But it's also the responsibility of the parent. Like, you ain't got to say everything you see, because you do got to see how it's going to fit. It's like, okay, this could wait till they get out of school. Like, I know I told him to clean this room up last night. I'll wait to say something about it when he get home the afternoon. Because I don't caught myself just like, I'm like, damn, I don't want to be like this on the wake up neither. I don't want to wake up criticizing so I could take my little mental notes. And then we just move on with love. But I think the aspect of it is I feel really close with my kids. Like, I, you know, I know if I'm gone for an extended amount of time, like, the, the love and the missing is real. It ain't just routine. Like, I just walk in the house like, I ain't been there, you know, And I think that I, I, I can only approach the world from that aspect because I made so much effort into changing the dynamic that I grew up in. Right. And I think that you've done an amazing job at that as well. And the way that you've always encouraged me and if I really, even if you seen, like, okay, things is a little shaky as far as, like, what you doing. You always encourage me from a place of positivity first and then solutions. And I think that by you being so consistent with it, it did always lend to me being like, I'm gonna go down to Alabama and talk to her and figure this stuff on out. No matter what it was, whether it was relationship, whether it's just life as a man. I remember there's times that I came to you and told you, like, I'm struggling as a dad. You gave me books to read. And I think it was extremely important for me to have you here because you are like, one of my biggest examples of, like, what I want to be in this life. Even down to, like, how you got your home, how you carry yourself in the community, and how respected you are amongst people. It's like, on a local level, I would want that same thing for myself, and I want that for my children when they come up.
- [79:31]
B
You know, I try to, I don't try, I be humble. I don't forget where I came from. I was thinking as you were talking and we were talking about neighborhoods, you know, we formulated softball. We the neighborhood children, we played together. That's why I say it's individuality now. But we played together as a neighborhood. I know all of you all have heard when the street light comes on, what happened. We all had to go in the house. We all watched General Hospital at 2 o'.
- [80:07]
A
Clock.
- [80:07]
B
We had to go in because our parents put us outdoors to play. And we didn't come in the house until 2 o', clock, take a bath and change, but we had to go back out. So it was all of us in that we played relay. We talking about in the neighborhood. There was a school nearby, so we went out and played. So it was, you know, that's why I say the things that were happening during that period of time. We wasn't totally affected by it mentally because we, our parents were providing in us a happy place. We were fighting, they were fighting for the rights, but we were still being provided with a happy place. They were being positive. My children did not. And it really blew me. I went to work at Ohatchie and we would ride, so it was a 30 minute ride. And my son asked, they asked me what was the N word. And I just, I discovered that that was something that we never, it was never said, it was never discussed. So they didn't know what that was. Yeah, as far as. Because those kids that they were, they went to school with me, so they were the only black kids in that school. And they told them they couldn't go to the bowling alley. But then. And I guess they must have used the N word. And so I did not realize. I said, you know what? They don't even know what that. What that word because they come up. That was something that we had never discussed or it had never come up, you know, so I had to, you know, explain that, explain that to them.
- [81:55]
A
But, but that's a beautiful thing because that's just the power of being in a black community where this just ain't something that affects you. And I think that it's one of the things where I really am adamant about that we need to be amongst each other.
- [82:11]
B
We do.
- [82:12]
A
And I would say this is late 80s 90s thing of I'm gonna make me some money and I'm move over here with people that don't look nothing like me, don't have a shared value system as me. And it's to prove something to myself and to prove something to my Neighborhood. Because this is when the white supremacy is really cracking. Where we look at that as something to be and somewhere to be. And to subject yourself to that amount of ostracization and racism to prove something is mentally ill to me. But it got me to thinking about how you talked about how you grew up. And another theme that we talk about here a lot is the war on drugs. And you got to see that full transformation from pre crack to crack hitting the streets and post crack. And how would you say, even in a small city like Gaston. But of course, Birmingham being right there, probably on a much more elevated level. How did you see our community change from before crack hit the streets till after?
- [83:22]
B
Well, what I saw, I mean, it was. I don't say. I don't say it was. It was hidden, so to speak. You didn't. There were people that were probably on or doing that we didn't know. The difference is it became more open. I remember it rest on Arsenal. And I think, I don't know what the drug might have been crack of the drug, the one that made you hallucinate where these two soldiers thought they were birds and they was flying out there, flying out the barracks. But in a small city where I am, one of my goddaughter told me and her mother told me in Gaston, she said, you're in the minority. And I said. She said it was more people on drugs than not. And that was surprising to me, being a small, small city. But when I was on the city council, because so much prescription or I guess pain pills or whatever was being sold, the city got. The city won a lawsuit with the rest of a lot of other states and the city of Gaston because it was more, say it was more drugs given than people.
- [84:50]
A
That's insane.
- [84:50]
B
It is.
- [84:51]
A
That's insane. I, I come, I come from a neighborhood where the effect was very direct. Because much to. To your point, I think when you see it in media, I think when you live in a very dense, highly, highly populated cities like major cities like Atlanta, I think it's a, A much bigger impact. In Wilmington, North Carolina, there was still people who had like their own goals and focus. And there was certain spots in the neighborhood where you just knew it was drug activity going on. And then you can see the effects of that on their children. Because we go to school with default children and these folks in the drug house, they. These kids growing up in drug houses and so. And that be whether the parents selling drugs or they doing drugs.
- [85:41]
B
We had more alcohol than we had drugs.
- [85:43]
A
Yeah, that's some small town stuff.
- [85:46]
B
In fact, though, we call them shot houses, but do they call them speaky.
- [85:52]
A
Speakeasy.
- [85:53]
B
Speakeasy.
- [85:54]
A
I guess that's a.
- [85:55]
B
But anyway. But anyway, we had.
- [86:00]
A
We.
- [86:00]
B
We just had more because. Because Etowah county was a dry county. So you had bootleggers and you had bootlegger houses. So we had. During my generation, in that particular time, there were drugs, but it was more an alcohol thing than it was a drug thing.
- [86:20]
A
Yeah, I can imagine that that was more open.
- [86:23]
B
I'm. Like I said, I'm sure drugs were there, but, you know, alcohol was the big. The big thing then.
- [86:30]
A
And that could take folks down just bad, to be honest.
- [86:33]
B
Yeah.
- [86:33]
A
Especially when you're getting it from the bootleg house.
- [86:35]
B
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
- [86:38]
A
What's been one of your. More through throughout, like your career and everything? What's one of the things that you're the most proud of from the beginning until now?
- [86:49]
B
Well, I. My. The most thing that I'm proud about is my influence of the young people. And. And I say that because, you know, it really made me feel good. Even now I have a little girl that I'm tutoring first grade, and she came with very limited skills. The other week, her mother sent me her grades. They were saying she got a paper where she got all. She got zero on math. How about last week she got 100? Because we worked on it. So. My greatest achievement is seeing children achieve. I have. My H Vac person is one of my former students and he told them, he spoke at a group and he said that if my principal can do it, I can do it. So that's the thing that I did the most about, and that's what I'm most proud of, is influencing young people to do better than me. If I can do it, then you can do it better than I can.
- [88:03]
A
Absolutely, Absolutely. I thank you. Thank you for coming. I don't know if you got any parting words for these good folks.
- [88:10]
B
Well, just, you know, keep achieving, keep striving. Enjoy life. October is my birth month, So I started October 1st. And I do something special every day. For me, I learned that people's perception is not my reality.
- [88:33]
A
Absolutely.
- [88:33]
B
And so that's what I leave you with. Just. And keep doing what you're doing. Proud of you.
- [88:39]
A
Thank you.
- [88:40]
B
Our commerce. When I say our conversation. We talked all the time and now it's paying off.
- [88:47]
A
Yeah. We could have several podcasts. Exactly, exactly. Go ahead and shout out your sorority for you. Go.
- [88:56]
B
Which one?
- [88:57]
A
That.
- [88:58]
B
Hello, Delta Sigma Theta Gaston Alumni chapter. And Go, Bulldogs.
- [89:05]
A
All right. This is Deontay Kyle Grizzness Podcast Episode 100. 100 with the incomparable Dr. Cynthia. Toss my granny for half, man. Turn me up, man. It's just rap.
- [89:21]
B
I just want to rap.
- [89:22]
A
You want to rap? Yeah. They say without the proper labor, faith.
- [89:40]
B
Don'T stand a chance.
- [89:41]
A
I put my faith in faith and stand on fertile land I planted seeds.
- [89:45]
B
Adeline deed turning the trees before rest in peace teas get printed to me.