Episode 110 - Dropping the Mask ft. 5hahem

Summary

Grits and Eggs Podcast — Ep. 110: “Dropping the Mask” ft. 5hahem

Host: Deante’ Kyle
Guest: 5hahem, therapist, content creator
Release Date: December 23, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this vibrant and deeply honest episode, Deante’ Kyle sits down with 5hahem, a therapist known for his bold online presence, to discuss shedding performative identities, Black masculinity, mental health, community self-policing, and how jumping through society’s hoops—especially for Black men—causes harm. Their conversation sprawls: from South food spots and hilarious cultural takes, to rigorous discussions of homophobia, identity, trauma, and social media’s impact on discourse and self-expression. With crackling banter and vulnerability, Deante’ and 5hahem plunge into personal stories and offer sharp cultural critiques, peppered with laughter, memorable moments, and candid advice.

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Key Discussion Points & Highlights

1. Navigating Food and Culture in the South (00:36–04:55)

• The episode kicks off with humorous advice on where (and where not) to eat in the South, based on décor, vibe, and who’s working the kitchen.
  • “Hole in the wall, don’t look like the best sanitation? Get in there. I love a hole in the wall.” — 5hahem (02:16)
• Deante’ and 5hahem riff about “Black card” stereotypes and celebrate individual preferences:
  • Pineapple on pizza? Acceptable. Chitlins? …debated.

2. Men’s Mental Health & Personal Loss (05:45–07:44)

• 5hahem shares about the recent loss of his cousin to suicide, highlighting the weight of men’s mental health—especially for Black men.
  • “It’s men's mental health month, and I actually have a cousin who died by suicide a couple days ago.” — 5hahem (05:56)
• Warning signs, stigma, and the urgent need for more open conversations in Black communities.

3. Social Media, Loneliness, and the “Red Pill” Trap (07:44–10:49)

• Deante’ discusses the male loneliness epidemic, emphasizing how online “red pill” narratives can worsen realities for struggling men.
  • “You tailor your algorithm to all this hatred, and of course after a while you just start agreeing with it, you start posting it, and it's like, now you red-pilled out.” — Deante’ (08:45)
• Both point out how manipulative platforms and influencers profit off vulnerability.

4. Systemic Barriers, Misogyny, and Internalized Oppression (10:49–13:54)

• The guests dissect how capitalism, patriarchy, and racism drive isolation—and how men (wrongly) blame women and each other rather than dismantling oppressive systems.
  • “Misogyny makes men blame women when it’s not women’s fault. It’s frankly like systems above all of us.” — 5hahem (10:49)
• Proximity and oppression: lashing out laterally rather than “at the people above.”

5. Patriarchy, Homophobia, and Black Masculinity (13:54–21:26)

• Explorations of how homophobia and hypermasculinity are enforced within Black communities—often to the detriment of straight Black men themselves.
  • “Homophobia hurts [straight Black men], too...because Black men are gendered in a completely different way…when you support things like homophobia, you’re uplifting these values that say Black men have to be these specific things.” — 5hahem (17:11)
• How cultural policing—within families and peer groups—limits individual expression.
• The contradiction and harm in both celebrating and denigrating “softness,” queerness, and individuality.
• “I think the most toxic part of patriarchy is us living for the approval of other men.” — Deante’ (16:47)

6. Gender Performance, Self-Policing, and Cultural Expectations (21:26–28:05)

• The absurdity of gendered double standards—“If you have strawberry lemonade, that’s suspect”—and the limitations imposed on both men and women.
  • “I want a more sensitive and expressive man…then I weaponize that aspect, but I also want a man that just eats raw meat…” — Deante’ (23:57)
• Judith Butler and the idea that gender is a performance; calls to question why we do what we do.

7. Systemic Barriers, Internal Community Critique, and Oppression (28:10–33:57)

• Not everyone in the Black community seeks collective progress—some want power and oppression in a “Black” version.
• The misapplication and harm of certain religious ideals; the restriction of “free will” by dogma.
  • “We need to be more imaginative about what progress can look like for our community.” — 5hahem (31:31)

8. Radical Honesty, Authenticity, and Rejection of Performative Living (33:57–46:02)

• Self-inquiry and radical self-acceptance are posited as the path to individual liberation and collective change.
  • “If I didn’t accept who I was, if I didn’t overtly go after things that I liked…you wouldn't know who I am because I would still be performing.” — Deante’ (43:28)
• Both affirm that authenticity, while risky, leads to real fulfillment—and sometimes to hatred from others invested in the status quo.

9. Criticism, Growth, and Generational Legacies (46:02–59:25)

• Holding one another accountable isn’t “hate”—it’s community care and hope for genuine progress.
• Both recount fraught father-son dynamics, with 5hahem discussing coming out, and Deante’ confronting his absentee father.
• The emotional language gap for Black men, how it feeds cycles of absence, pain, and misunderstanding.
  • “Black men are stripped away from their humanity from a very early age.” — 5hahem (52:10)
• The difference between constructive criticism and projection/fear-driven backlash.

10. Economic Realities, Family, and Parenting (59:25–66:06)

• 5hahem reveals he initially didn’t want to be a therapist, but was drawn in by experience and circumstance; discusses lifting up family with his success.
• The myth that money equates to readiness for family; the racialized history of poverty and reproductive rights.
• Parental moments: protecting children’s freedom of expression, and the culture clash around “acceptable” gendered behaviors.

11. Colorism, Intersectionality, and Privilege (70:08–75:14)

• Deante’ reflects on colorism, police interactions, and the importance of acknowledging both privilege and marginalization.
  • “Making fun of me is not a systemic thing… That’s not the same as systemic colorism.” — Deante’ (72:25)
• The danger of refusing to reflect on one’s privileged identities (“victim complex”).

12. Visibility, Internet Hate, and Parasocial Critique (75:14–86:13)

• The overwhelming, sometimes violent nature of being a visible Black man online—especially as a therapist or queer public figure.
  • “People cannot accept when they see a light in somebody else…they will assume that you got it through nefarious means.” — 5hahem (78:19)
• Encounters with online haters in real life; affirming boundaries and real-world consequences for online disrespect.

13. Weaponization of Therapy Language (90:39–95:12)

• 5hahem rails against the misuse of “narcissist,” “love bombing,” and “trauma bonding.”
  • “People take these…therapeutic, well-researched terms and like flip it on its head or reduce it…and it does more of a disservice than anything else.” — 5hahem (91:39)
• Real trauma bonding defined as a manipulative, abusive attachment, not simply bonding over shared difficult experiences.

14. Conspiracies and Black Success (95:12–103:22)

• The hilarious futility of “clone” and Illuminati conspiracies about successful Black people.
  • “Why would you clone Gucci Mane? What the f* do you get from cloning Gucci?”** — 5hahem (97:37)
• Online claims about being “paid plants” or DNC operatives—both laugh off such theories, emphasizing hard work and authenticity.

15. The Pressure of Public Life & Staying Grounded (102:45–105:49)

• The stress of both increased public visibility and family expectations (“my nieces and nephews think I’m rich”).
• The importance of remaining unchanged by fame, while using new opportunities to support loved ones.
• 5hahem: “I’m the same Shaheem from way back…”

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Mental Health:
  "It's men's mental health month, and I actually have a cousin who died by suicide a couple days ago…it's rough, but, like, I'm good. I'm managing." — 5hahem (05:56)

• On Black Community Self-Policing:
  "The most toxic part of the patriarchy is us living for the approval of other men." — Deante’ (16:47)

• On Authenticity:
  "If I didn’t accept who I was…you wouldn't know who I am because I would still be performing." — Deante’ (43:28)

• On Weaponizing Therapy Speak:
  "The word narcissist hit the streets like crack in the 80s. And I hate it…They overuse it, they misuse it often." — 5hahem (90:39)

• On Online Hate:
  “People cannot accept when they see a light in somebody else…they will assume that you got it through nefarious means.” — 5hahem (78:19)

• On Colorism:
  “Making fun of me is not a systemic thing…That’s not the same as systemic colorism.” — Deante’ (72:25)

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Memorable Moments

• Comparing Clean Chitlins and Clean Ass (04:55)
  A comic (and surprisingly philosophical) digression on Black food culture and taboos.

• Bringing Up the “Pause” Discourse (47:55)
  Both lampoon and analyze how “pause,” “punk,” and other gender-policing terms shape Black male expression and connection.

• Calling Out the Therapy Course Grift (96:11–97:25)
  Both mock how quickly anyone with minor celebrity status is expected to sell a course; 5hahem stays adamant about authenticity.

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Final Thoughts & Calls to Action

• Host and Guest on Dropping the Mask:
  The episode’s central plea: Question who you are, why you feel the need to perform, and what holds you back from authenticity.

  • “Be who you are. Like, question your identity. But even more than that, stop hating—and some of us will smack you in real life. That’s it.” — 5hahem (105:49)

• On Community and Growth:
  Both urge Black communities to hold each other accountable out of care, to abandon anti-queer and misogynistic policing, and to embrace individual differences as a path to collective healing.

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Episode Timeline Key Segments

• 00:36–04:55: Food, Blackness, and ‘card’ culture
• 05:45–07:44: Men's mental health, suicide, vulnerability
• 07:44–10:49: Male loneliness, social media traps
• 13:54–21:26: Queerness, patriarchy, homophobia in Black communities
• 28:10–33:57: “Not all want Black progress”; religious dogma
• 43:54–46:02: Radical self-honesty
• 59:25–66:06: Parenting, privilege, and family
• 70:08–75:14: Intersectionality, colorism
• 90:39–95:12: Weaponizing therapy speak
• 95:12–103:22: Conspiracy theories about Black success
• 105:49: Parting words and “stop hating” mic drop

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This episode pulses with humor, heart, and a relentless push for deeper thought and self-examination. It’s as insightful as it is entertaining—a must-listen for anyone seeking an unvarnished look at modern Black identity, community, and self-knowing.

Transcript

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Woke up in the morning and to God be the glory Thankful for another day to tell my story Put my opinions in the universe and let them orbit I'm from the dirty south with a dirty mouth my knee or a bit miss things Things on me like a Norbit had to refuse them cause my no rest Fusion gorgeous as I doubt my sons up and kiss my daughter forehead Tell them we gonna get this money to my POC More bit. Remember living in apartments now we playing mortgage.

[A]

I'm gonna need the scale and I'm gonna need like examples of restaurants.

[B]

This is the scale. This what I'm okay, okay, okay. Entry level, white is, you know, some whimsical ass name restaurant with like, you know, brick in that, like exposed brick.

[A]

I made that mistake last.

[B]

Open face sandwiches like that, like, don't go in there.

[A]

Okay, but I do like an open face.

[B]

Okay, you do like the open face sandwich, but you also like it to be seasoned.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you also like, don't want to be selecting from a beer list that's only IPAs. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

I don't drink beer.

[B]

Oh, that's real. But they. But these will be the places where they don't have liquor, so it'll be only beer. It's a beer bar. It's like, don't go there. High level white food where you kind of like, make sure. Let me make sure I'm dressed appropriately. Always a go. Always though. Because like I said, they got and Mexicans in that kitchen.

[A]

So the food is prepped.

[B]

The season is gonna come out. Or like timely fashion. The waitress, waiter, they probably black. The only. The only way you know it's a white establishment is a tall white man walking around just perusing through that.

[A]

You like that sounds like a nightmare. Loki. I don't know.

[B]

It's a nightmare, but it's great food.

[A]

What about the black ones?

[B]

Okay, black, like, okay. All aesthetic. If it's all. If it looks great.

[A]

Grass wall, I go to office.

[B]

You gotta get out of there. Like, you gotta get out of there.

[A]

If it's grass wall and say market price.

[B]

Get out of there. Get out of there.

[A]

When it. When I hear the hookah lounge music going off, you gotta get out of the go.

[B]

You gotta get out of there. When you pull up to the restaurant, but it feel like a club. You gotta get out of there.

[A]

Yeah, now that's real now.

[B]

Hole in the wall, Hole in the wild don't look like the best sanitation. Get in there. I love a hole in the wall. In there.

[A]

Some of the best fried chicken I've ever had in my life came from a gas station.

[B]

I'm trying to tell you, bro, in the south, you know what I'm saying? I, I. Those were the best wings. So if you're in the Edgewood area, all food is you. You pretty much green on the food Midtown. You pretty much green on the food at midtown too. I ain't gonna lie. But it just be the ramp, like the downtown. Anything that, like, they got in, like, touristy spots, stay away from that.

[A]

I don't know the neighborhoods yet. This is.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right. This is my third.

[B]

Just give me a call, bro. You know what I'm saying? You think this spot good? I'm like, take a picture of the outside. I'll let you know. I want a brisket.

[A]

Well, I went to college out here, so.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I went to, like, Foxboroughs.

[B]

That's what I told him about. I don't know if that. Unfortunately, it's not like, summertime, because I would tell you that, like, if you see, like, four expedition with a. With a whole smoker attached to it, that's where you want to get that. Now.

[A]

That's like, that's what I need. I need that for real.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That I actually need, like, the back. Back of the truck.

[B]

Like, that's gonna be the best. Might have watermelons in that and everything.

[A]

I am a picky eater. That's probably part of my problem. So, like, I don't like watermelon, pineapple. I don't eat barbecue. I don't like barbecue sauce. But I like brisket. Like, it's. I, I got some complications over here.

[B]

Hey, look, man, the, the black car thing, it ain't real, bro. It is, but it ain't in a monolithic sense. Like, I like pineapples on pizza. That shit tastes good.

[A]

That's gross.

[B]

It tastes amazing.

[A]

I'm not gonna yuck your yum, though.

[B]

You see what I'm saying? I appreciate that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sometimes we need to, you know, allow people to express themselves individually.

[A]

Like, you know what I mean?

[B]

Like, that's like. If you got to saying, like, I eat chitlins. That's why I jump off all the way. We can't do that. Oh, look at you. Look at you.

[A]

I could do a little piece of chitlin every now and again.

[B]

No, you cannot, bruh. We're not there no more, bro.

[A]

Okay, wait, wait. Can I please?

[B]

Like, you're the therapist.

[A]

You know, People say that all the time, every time I say anything they don't like. They're like, you supposed to be a therapist. That's fine.

[B]

Not siblings.

[A]

They have to be clean and prepared. Well, and I. Look, I'm. I was raised by old school country people, like pig feet, like type people. So I don't know. Chitlins with a little bit of hot sauce. It has to be the crystals.

[B]

And you know what? Now that we talking about this. So you agree I be eating ass. So it's like, well, how much?

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like there's. How much. Can you really get that much of a separation? It's a human butt over here. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

So, yeah, like, if you.

[B]

But I ain't cleaning that before, you know, I'm just. I'm just coming in with the assumption. Everybody, everybody.

[A]

To clean before him, please. Everybody, I'm coming with something.

[B]

You compared this ass.

[A]

Everybody please clean ahead of time. That's.

[B]

That's okay. If you didn't know by now. This is episode 100 and something. I'm Deontay Kristen's podcast. We got therapists in this motherfucker. Your favorite therapist or your least favorite. How you doing, bro? I'm good.

[A]

Like, I can't. Well, it's been. It's been a wild couple of days, but, like, I'm good. I'm good.

[B]

What's been the wildest part?

[A]

So I. I think I told you that our. We were going to talk a little bit about it. It's men's mental health, like, month, and I actually have a cousin who died by suicide a couple days ago. And it's been like throwing the family for a loop. Like, people are scrambling. We trying to figure things out. It's been rough, but, like, I'm good. I'm managing. I'm good. Like, that's where I'm at with it.

[B]

Is this something that, you know, I think having friends. I've had friends who, you know, died by suicide. But do you think that this ever something that you can kind of like see coming? Or is it just one of those things where it's like that silence?

[A]

Yeah. 1. It got heavy real fast, y'. All. I'm so sorry.

[B]

Nah, it's cool.

[A]

But yeah, there's signs, I think. Well, not always. Let me not say always, but typically there are signs that highlight that somebody is in a low place, somebody pulling.

[B]

Back.

[A]

Being down for a long period of time, suddenly being happy, getting rid of possessions, saying they'll do it. So many signs can. Can happen in a person. Like, their demeanor changes so Many different things, but they're signs typically and it's important to pay attention to them signs. And I think just like when it comes to like men, specifically black men, like, it's not something that we often really talk about, which is really disappointing because we have like one of the higher suicide rates out of all of the different demographics. And I think with that in mind, that conversation needs to be had a little bit more often. I try to have it, but don't be wanting to listen to me, frankly, because of the messenger. But like, I do hope like somebody starts to talk about it more.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's increasingly getting worse. I think the social media aspect of it. So my take on like the male loneliness epidemic is that it is a real thing and. But it's enhanced by the narrative that it is a real thing. So it's like the more you kind of hear stuff, the more kind of like reaffirm something that you may be feeling. And then I believe that kind of like make people kind of like fully accept it. Like, I am lonely. This is an epidemic. And you bond with people over there online, but you stay away from people in the physical. Because I had like a cousin that was, I just started noticing like some of his like posts was a little red peeled out and I was like, what's up, cuz? Like, you good? And he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm good. I was like, nah, like, what's up with you with these posts? Like, what's going on? He was like, you know these women. I was like, hey, before we go outside of ourselves with this, like before we go to point the finger, what's up with you, bro?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? And I think it was just like his, you know, he had a bad breakup and that breakup is also like compounded by him going online and was like, these ain't. And he like, you right? These ain't. And then. Yeah, but then you tailor your algorithm to like all this hatred. And of course after a while you just start agreeing with it, you start posting it and it's like, now you red pilled out.

[A]

Yeah. I think a lot of men don't realize how they are being manipulated. And that's the same content overall. We see that in so many formats for every demographic. Really, like people manipulating and using your vulnerability. We're all vulnerable in some way to get you to support their platforms and line their pockets with money. Frankly, the red pill content is just manipulation, rinse, washed and repeated. And I think what people do is like they use this hand to talk while they're stabbing them in the back with the other thing. We focus on the wrong shit quality of life is the reason why we have a loneliness epidemic. I think capitalism is why we have that. I think all of these systems that play racism, like you name it, these are the things that hold, hold up these divides between people and make isolation easier. Like people are broke as like I think that's the. Wait, that probably sounds insulting but we, we are struggling.

[B]

I mean that's just the honest like point though. That's it's honest. Like people are struggling.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the way that we understand it is, it's broken. Like that is what it is.

[A]

An unfortunate byproduct of the patriarchy is that a lot of men feel like they're not useful if they can't provide. Like, and if the economy is hit and almost all of us are strugg, then how the hell are we supposed to like, how is a man going to feel valuable if like it's hard for him to succeed in the society? I think there's so many factors that go into the loneliness epidemic and I feel like misogyny makes men blame women when it's not women's fault is frankly like systems above all of us.

[B]

Yeah, I'm, I'm always like curious as to like why when like things are systemically and structurally bad and apparently systemic and structural why we like look to each other to place, place the blame. Right? Like, yeah, I mean it's heavy because it's like you literally have no power over me. Women don't have any power over me on my decision making abilities right now. I also need to be in a place of acceptance like that I'm not for everybody. Like I'm not attractive to everybody, I'm not compatible with everybody. And those are real things. Right. And I think the thing is, is that when you prop it up as an issue or like a skill issue or like a monetary issue, is that when I get money, every woman will want me. And it's like it's billionaires out here. Like the, the women that choose these men based on like money are going to do that anyway. And it's not like a woman thing, it's a that person thing. They're a transactional person. They have ulterior motives and they're going to do that with every aspect of their life. It's not like a women thing. Men do that too. Like you ain't got no car, you ain't got no job, you living off this girl. You ain't really looking for no prospects. That's like gold digging in a sense, too. But we just call niggas bums for that. And we call women gold diggers. So it's like. But that behavior is like, parallel across gender, across race, across everything because we see it. But it's like, I need somebody to blame because I can't provide. That's a systemic issue, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If, you know, like, the wages haven't increased. If, you know, your granddad was making like $3 a day and still had three.

[A]

Still had like two wigs and three families.

[B]

You feel me? Like, I think there's an issue with the system where it's like, it feels unobtainable to reach to the system. Right. The system feels like a giant. And it's like, I can't really box or God in this area, but I can fight you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, like, be heard and get a reaction. You. When we, like. I talk about the system all the time. They don't read. The system doesn't react to me. You know what I'm saying? But the thing is, it's like people are reacting, and that's who's affected. So that's who I care about. Reacting.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's a proximity thing. Like. Like, I agree. And we'll add that proximity. It's so much easier to swing to the person right to your left than the person above, which is why was it. Oh, my God, was it? Who was it? Was it Nikki Giovanni? That interview with James Baldwin where she was like, why do I get the worst of you? And I think, like, that is such a real sentiment because it's like, it's so easy to treat the people who is closest to you with the wrath and rage that you have for things above you. And I really think, like, even homophobia in the black community, for example, like, the way that homophobia is just so normalized and matter of fact, no misogyny. I think that's the perfect one.

[B]

It is the one because it stems out of that too, because it's almost because there's this, like, this idea of, like, homosexuality being feminine. Right. Amongst men.

[A]

Wait, does that make sense? Yeah. No. But I'm like, thinking because it's like, you are literally the devil himself, so you would know that, wouldn't you?

[B]

I know it all, bro. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I was taught by the best, you.

[A]

Know, that was so.

[B]

I was literally made perfect. The fact that you're talking about because.

[A]

You gonna get them Started again because don't get me started on the way the religious indoctrination has a lot of people thinking that these like isms and obious are like the way to go.

[B]

I mean, we're gonna. The thing is, is like it's not really beating a dead horse. The horse is alive and well. So I'm gonna keep beating that motherfucker, you know what I'm saying? I think the thing is, is like there's an inherent. This is, this is my ignorance when I was younger, right? My ignorance when I was younger was okay, like male to male is weird because it's masculine and masculine, like it's cool when women do it because it's feminine to feminine. But we're not understanding that these are like not. But these energies are just energies. It's not like dictated the gender. Right. You grow out of that also, like that's some shit that is just acceptable amongst the homies. Like to be homophobic. It's just acceptable. And it's like you bred into it, right? Older men do it, the church do it, athletes do it, your homeboys do it. And it's like also a way of othering other people. And there's this idea of black men having to be hard all the time and. And if you gay, you soft.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? But then it's also like as you get older, it's like, well, I ain't never seen a gay man lose a fight to a straight man ever. So then what are we talking about soft now? Now we now. Now what we talking now. You overly soft. You just got beat up by a soft ass nigga, you know? But I think the thing that kind of like helped me like put things in the scope, it's like for one, you got to mature and kind of get to a space where like I accept like who I am and what I like is what I like. What I agree with is what I agree with. And I don't have to. I don't need influence around that, bro. You know what I'm saying? And I think that it's really not a thing of like, it don't make more manly. It just. It's just a fear of overcoming like what's the status quo? The status quo is to not like these people to other these people, even if I don't know why. So overcoming the status quo and just humanizing people in general, then it's like motherfuckers will question your ways. Motherfuckers. They'll try to put it on you. But it's just like I don't live for your acceptance or approval. And I think they're like the most toxic part of the patriarchy is us living for the approval of other men.

[A]

Yeah. I think a lot of straight men don't realize that homophobia hurts them. Straight black men specifically. I hate to like, I don't really refer to white people when I speak.

[B]

When I'm talking, I'm only talking to black people.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like I have to clarify that a lot because I don't give a about no shade if you white and watching this.

[B]

Hey, good luck.

[A]

Yeah, talk to my people.

[B]

Don't talk.

[A]

Straight men don't get that homophobia hurts them too. But I specifically say straight black men because black men are gendered in a completely different way compared to anybody else in the patriarchy. Like, black men, straight CIS or whatever are also like victims of the patriarchy because when you support things like homophobia, you're uplifting these values that like, say that black men have to be these, this specific thing. Right. They have to be hyper masculine, they have to be the bucks, they have to be all these things. And when you aren't those things or if you fall short of those things, you're not, you're not viewed or valued as much as a man. But even beyond that, when you are like a hyper masculinized and viewed as somebody who has to be this more than masculine type of person, it's easier to criminalize you, it's easier to dehumanize you and it's easier to incarcerate you, frankly.

[B]

And I think because through the white lens, the idea of masculinity that they put on us is animalistic. Yeah. You know, I mean, exactly. The beast, the black beast.

[A]

Like, when you support homophobia, you're supporting the very system that does that. And I think a lot of people don't know, like, instead of like, again, we swing it to the people next to us instead of swinging at the people above. Like, and I think what I will say, like, there is a misconception that black people are more homophobic than white people. And I really, like, I hate when people say that. Like, because I get where people are coming from. Because again, proximity, when you grow up around somebody and you're next to somebody all day and like, you're closer to the discussions that are being had in our circles. And we're not, like, we don't practice the white culture of like keeping things on a hush hush as much as possible, even though they evil as fuck behind closed doors. Like, it's easier to view black people that way. But I. Let me remind everybody for the thousandth time, the motherfuckers who invented homophobia are white people. So it doesn't even make sense to like say that black people are the biggest proprietors of something that white people brought to us.

[B]

Well, and then here's the thing. It's like the way that the Grindr app will shut down at a RC every time. Yeah. So my thing is this. It's like, what you know about Grindr? I mean, I be reading.

[A]

You late though, because we done moved on to Sniffies. That's a whole. Yeah, you behind on the culture, but you gotta. It'll be fine.

[B]

Somebody will catch me up. You know what I mean? I'll get the latest. But I think the, the crazier thing is this is like we hold these like objective viewpoints, these opposing viewpoints simultaneously, right? We'll say like black. Black people are the most homophobic and the most homosexual. It just don't make sense. Right. And then the thing is, is that it doesn't benefit you in any way to be homophobic. Right? It's not progressing your life. It's actually not deterring anybody else, especially once we get grown. Because you can't hurt somebody with words that they've been hearing since they was 10, you know what I'm saying? So the thing is, is that we also are limiting our self expression. Right. And it is perpetuated a lot online by black women too, where we are like, there's a laundry list of things that black men can't do or it makes them suspect. It's. It's terrible, you know what I'm saying? So it's like we as a community participate in these things that we think are like funny. Funny and jest.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's like, I think if we, if we take the lens off of ourselves and think about it, like if somebody was making these jokes about black people, you wouldn't find that shit funny. Yeah, but you can make these jokes and about people that's in your own community because the homophobia is acceptable or it's just something to laugh about. But I'm not, you know, oh my God, I love gay people. You know, I don't have a problem with a. You know, it don't. It don't affect my life at all. You get all these talking points, but yet you still engaging in it, you know what I'm saying? And it's like, what you mean? I Can't have strawberry lemonade. That shit is delicious.

[A]

Wait, did you see that video? I got two things to say to that. Right?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

First, the video from. I don't know if you saw it was a video like a couple days ago. This girl said if he farts a lot, that means he d.

[B]

I'm just intolerant, shorty. Like, I know I'm not supposed to have lactose, but I wanted some ice cream today.

[A]

Oh, no, that means you, D.L. i'm sorry. No, no, there's. There's this like, hunt for black women. I've noticed the rise of it lately. It's really concerning. The second thing is, I hate when people say punk. And a lot of black women have taken on this. Like, it's not that big of a deal. Like, frankly, it don't move me that much, but it's like you're starting to say it in a disrespectful way.

[B]

So the thing is, is that we get. We. We have a. An amplified version of regional cultures, right? So we're taking on a lot of lingo and dances and food culture and. And, you know, just kind of like everyday societal culture from other regions, right? So this is a specifically New Orleans thing, Louisiana based thing. And when you grow up in that context, even if you are gay, you understand it, right? When you take it out of that context, it's just like white people using lingo. It's like, you don't. This isn't something you grew up with. So you're not using it in the right context. You're using it to be disrespectful, you saying it to anything. It's like, I knew I was out when it was like, it's just, I've been out, but like, I'm checked out of like the whole conversation just because it's like now it's like if you, if you. If you have sex with too many women, you gay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If. If you like dessert, you're gay. It's like, no, for real, I can't.

[A]

Eat cheesecake, especially if it's strawberry. You a sissy.

[B]

Oh, what? Yeah, I might go overly strawberry, double it up, because I like sweets. But I think the thing is. So, so, so then we get into this thing where I want a more sensitive and a more expressive man and a more emotionally intelligent man and a man that's in tune with himself and his feelings. And then I weaponize that aspect of. But I also want a man that just eat like raw meat. I like he, he, he, he. You Know, he don't. He just cooked the steak on the grill. He just throw it on the grill. He take it off with his hands, and. And he chopped a tree down, and he built the house in a week. And you know what I'm saying? It's like, what are we talking about?

[A]

Who does that these days? Like, you can hire a contractor.

[B]

It's like, when girls are like. Like, can you build a house? Like, no, nigga, That's a whole job. It's a whole job for somebody else. It's like, even if you can't cook, it's like, that is also a whole job for somebody else.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we can cook together. It don't have to be these.

[A]

I think that we put so much pressure on each other. Like, for sure. Women are under a lot of pressure to perform feminin. Men are under a lot of pressure to perform masculinity. When you're queer, you can't be too queer, because then you become, like, somebody who's a danger to everybody else for whatever reason. It's just a lot of pressure. And we put it on each other. We put it on ourselves. And I hope for one day for us all to take a step back and to be like, what the are we doing?

[B]

Yeah. And why are we aligning with this? Because here's the thing. We will outwardly oppress people in our community that only add value and protect the people who destroy the shit. Like, we protect predators. Like a mom.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Like, if I hear another separate art from the artist. When we talking about, like, R. Kelly, like, my. I'm not. We watch this. Have sex with a child and then pee on her and art from the artist.

[A]

I didn't watch that. That's it.

[B]

Well, no, I'm saying I don't watch it, but I'm saying there was a moment where, like, I mean. And also, too, they was passing that around, like a mix.

[A]

That's weird. That's weird. That generation. I'm always like, what the Were y'?

[B]

All Generation X get a little. It get a little tricky. Yeah, they get a little spooky, you know what I'm saying? Because they were raised by drug addicts.

[A]

Facts.

[B]

And drug dealers simultaneously. Nobody cared about the kids. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Kids.

[B]

Nobody cared about them. You know what I'm saying? So you. You looking at a generation of, like, arrested development in a real way. They don't know how to be grandparents. They don't know how to be grandchildren. Children. They don't know how to Be brothers. They want to be. They just all up and I grandmama the baby, you know, I don't hold it to him. This is what it is. Oh, yeah. My episode 100 just came out with my grandma. Congratulations. I interviewed my grandma. Yeah, that was a vibe in this. I ain't gonna lie.

[A]

Oh, that's so sad.

[B]

Cussing in front of my grandma, bro. Yeah, I mean, that's my grandma, you know, if I'm gonna get a little curse word off, she know that about me. She don't know. You don't get too comfortable in this. You know what I'm saying? But I think that when we. When this. This pressure to perform, it goes away from, like, pressure to, like, oppression and restriction. We're, like, oppressing ourselves. And, you know, like, you'll say things like, oh, man, like, we need more black men in gymnastics.

[A]

And then a hit, a flip.

[B]

Look at this gay ass, right? Flipping and split.

[A]

He just hit a split. He gay, like.

[B]

But then also, like James Brown, he hit a split three times back to back. King of funk. He the king.

[A]

He was.

[B]

And it's like, he is, though. Facts also, too. Like, the fits was crazy, you know what I'm saying? I was just talking to somebody about that. Like, I wonder how much on money he spent a year on outfits, you know what I'm saying? Because he was getting him. I was custom, really. I seen him with the deepest V. Ruffles.

[A]

Oh, yeah, flowy. I feel that about Prince.

[B]

Yeah. You feel me?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The thing is, is that it's like, I don't like this idea of picking and choosing based on success. I don't like this idea of, like, you know, somebody. I was interviewing Ariel Jane. You know, she. She's a lesbian. And nigga was like, you got the black boule all around you. I was like, oh, shit. You know, this is just a person, right? Like, I was like, you niggas is stuck in 2012 conspiracy theories. Like, it just gets odd because we restrict ourselves. We want to grow. Like, we all want growth. We all want a better black community. We don't want to take the actionable steps to do it, which means you have to let go of some of your ideology.

[A]

I don't think all of us want it, though. I'll be honest. I think some of us don't want.

[B]

To speak on it.

[A]

Black community. I think some people really just want to be in the position of white people. And frankly, they're not even in a good position. Like, if you look around, it may appear because they're doing better than the average, but they're not in a good scrambling. They're scrambling right now, like, because frankly, they're in a horrible position. And they set themselves up for failure. Colonization. It was doomed to fail from. From start. It's like that type of. It always is going to crumble in. In the. In the long run. I really do believe in the power of people. And a lot of black people don't want black people to progress. They want black people to be in the same position white people are and having power over other people. And a lot of times those people who have those mindsets have the same mindsets of, like, women have to be oppressed in the black. I'm sorry, women have to submit in the black community. Queer people can exist. Trans people can exist. You have to perform in a specific way. You have to be a man in a specific way. You have to be a woman in a specific way. A lot of people want the conformity and the. The oppression that comes with, like, white supremacy, but they just want it to be in the format of black. And I think that's where people fuck up. So I don't agree with everybody. I don't think. I don't think everybody wants a better black community. I think some people just want the black community to replace the white one.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Rhetoric. The rhetoric is we want progress, but.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

The. The undertone is I want to replace. And I just.

[A]

I know we, like, want to see.

[B]

Themselves in the seat of that empire.

[A]

Exactly. But the. I'm a loop in the Christian. Like the. You had people saying that the ancestors was burning in hell. Like, that was. That was a wild one.

[B]

But I think calling my granny a demon is insane.

[A]

The granny. Your granny got whacked too.

[B]

Bro.

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

And it's like. Because the thing is, like, so my grandmother that is alive now is. Is a grandmother from my marriage. I met her when I was 19 years old. My. So I met her the same year that my mother passed. I mean, my grandmother passed. So that was. This is my last living grandma. So as our marriage progresses, we have kids. I mean, of course we become like, we're family. She becomes part of my family as well. But she takes me out. She like, this is my grandson. This is like, we got a bond. You knew? And it's like. So I think about the people that raised me and have transitioned, and it's like, shawty, you saying they demons?

[A]

Yeah, that was insane.

[B]

You know, niggas be tripping, bro. Like, in a real way, yeah.

[A]

And that's where that performance that everybody. And they think they're police officers. That's the thing, the thing too. They are not imaginative. They are. They're performing from a script that was like force fed to our people like ages ago. And they never want to hear that. And they're going to bring up the Ethiopian Bible and all that shit. I don't care what religion anybody practices, but I want people to be more imaginative about what progress can look like for our community. It doesn't have to look like some hyper Christian or like super, like, like everybody just wants to like follow the script that's been given. I think we can think of a future outside of that hell.

[B]

Yeah. Well, also too, it's like these, these are the same people that will say God gave you free will. And then it's like, but your free will is like limited and restricted to these circumstances, this book, this religious practice. It's like, no, I have the free will to not adhere to any of that. You know what I'm saying? And I think, well, that means you're.

[A]

Just going to burn in hell.

[B]

Well, so, so, so then, so here's the thing, right, about that. She has to die too. So if somebody acknowledges her as an ancestor, does she dip from heaven? It's like, ah, we, we had you up here, but you got down grandchild.

[A]

Just who said that she was making it to heaven in the first place?

[B]

Well, I mean, just. That was very something.

[A]

I don't think people who condemn people to hell typically make it to the upstairs.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's like a big. I think there's a restriction. Yeah, you can't tell. You can't do my job for you, even die.

[A]

Like. Yeah.

[B]

How. You know, I was, I might have put you at the gate, but you were down on earth showing the out. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

It's so stupid.

[B]

I really do think that we have to, you know, there are endless possibilities of what the future could look like, what our present could look like if we expanded our worldview, if we change our perspective, if we drop some of these ritualistic traditions and, and really just set with things as I'm informed on this and this is how I feel about it. Not like I'm not, I'm not going to deflect. I'm not going to like run away from it. I'm. I'm gonna really like dive into like how I really feel about these things regardless of what anybody tells me to feel about it. Right. And I think the first step is like always for me has always been like, how does this affect me? Yeah, you know what I mean? I think that that's a first base for a lot of people and that's where they like to stay. And that's also like a talking point. Like, well, it's not affecting me. And it's like I'm thinking about how it affects me in like the sense of, okay, so how does it affect them now? We like, it's got to be like a two way thing.

[A]

So where I typically encourage people to start is like asking like, why? Like literally why? Like, and I know other philosophers from many eons ago have said the same thing, but when you seriously start to ask yourself questions like, why do I believe in this religion? Or like, why is it that I perform my gender like this? Like, why is it that, like this is what is considered like to be the right way to do this? Why?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then when you get the answer to that question, oh, because so and so taught me, then it's like, okay, but why do they believe that? Who taught them?

[B]

You got to become a child again, you gotta ask why? And a lot of children learn everything.

[A]

But a lot of people don't recognize that they act like police officers trying to make people believe what they've been indoctrinated to believe their whole lives. Like they go around bashing other people because they don't subscribe to the same program. AKA they're not restricted to the same limitations. Like a lot of. Like in the snow Shade, this might stir a little bit. I'll take the heat. A lot of straight men hate gay, gay men because there's a freedom that they don't get to tap into. You don't get to tap into that same freedom. You don't. I could skip up the street right now.

[B]

Yeah, real guess what?

[A]

And I can kiss my boyfriend and. Well, I don't know if straight men want to do that part, but like the party.

[B]

The point being, but even with that, there, there's a restrictiveness of PDA that come from it too. You don't want to kiss your girl in public. You don't want to seem crazy, you don't want to seem romantic. You don't want to seem in love.

[A]

Like you like girls.

[B]

You don't want to be vulnerable. It's like my.

[A]

You don't even want to pretend that you like. Well, not even pretend. You don't even want to acknowledge that you like women.

[B]

It's this the tough guy for one. Like most black Men that I know beyond that tough guy exterior are some of the kindest, like, goofiest people you'll ever meet in life. They, they're just genuinely good people. They have like a very expressive personality, but then they gotta turn it on when they go outside.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And also, like, the biggest thing for me is like, I'm not doing that the rest of my life. No, no, I'm not doing that. Yeah, I'm not doing that because it's like, man, bro, that sucks, bro. Like, it's a self imposed depression at some point. Like, you, you, you, you know, you're putting these pressures on yourself and to your point about why it's like that curiosity dies in a lot of us. We don't, we don't want to inquire any further. We just want to accept it and then just like, deal with the consequences of like, that's life, you know what I'm saying? Oh, I'm miserable, but that's life. Everybody's miserable. Nah, bro, you.

[A]

I want to add a caveat to that though. Like, I think not only does the curiosity die, I think you're punished when you do explore that curiosity too. Like, a lot of black men think I hate black men because I'm quick to say, like, nah, like, that's wrong. That's misogynistic. That's misogynoir. I don't fuck with that. Like, and I do say I hate men sometimes, but that's because I date. And the niggas who I date be stressing me out. Like, that's a separate category for a whole nother day. But like, I think when, like, I've been indoctrinated and raised as a man by around a lot of niggas, like my, my father, my uncles, my cousins. Like, I know what it's like to be a nigger. And I can tell you that when you step out of line from like the performance of masculinity, you get ostracized, you get punished, you get like, judged, you get mistreated. I was called soft growing up all the time. Like, I remember my grandfather would take me hunting and I never wanted to shoot the shoot. Well, I know how to shoot, but I didn't want to shoot the animals. Frankly, I think I turned out better for that. But like, like, you get punished when you step outside of that type of stuff and you don't want to perform and like, be tough and like, act like you don't have any fears or you can't be like, like expressive. You can't have emotions like you get punished. It's not just that the curiosity dies like it's killed. I don't even think it's a murder.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I think one of the biggest things I'm. I'm thinking about this conversation. I never really, I didn't really hear like that growing up. Like I, I didn't hear a lot of negative feedback from men. But I also like played sports. I was funny. There's a colorist dynamic to it too. Like I'm one of the few light skinned people in my family. So there's like a privilege. It's like a weird little I get compliments more than my sister's type vibe too, that I just kind of like as I got older. I ain't like that shit, you know, I mean, I was like, damn, I don't want to be like, like just because I'm light skinned. That's weird. Like I peeped it, you know what I'm saying? And it's like this curiosity and shit like that. Like, like motherfuckers are seeing me with like stars in their eyes. I'm like, As a kid I was like, these is weird. You know what I'm saying? And so, you know, good hair, comments.

[A]

Like that, that's weird.

[B]

So the thing is, is that I, I recognized in my son like when he was growing up, like he loved like flipping, he liked R B music. This is a child, you dig what I'm saying? Like a 2, 3, 4 year old. When I'm playing my music, he ain't really with it. His mind music he with. He liked the melodies, he liked the thing. And Rihanna anti album came out and instead what are you willing to do? That was his. That's Rihanna best song at four years old. Four or five years old that would demand. And so he was playing it. And I remember my homeboy was over there and my son was in there. His son was there and my son was there and my son was singing a song, playing it out loud. And then my homeboy seen his son over there. He was like, don't be over there singing that. I said, hey bro, I said, I'm gonna tell you something. I'm gonna tell you something. If you're gonna be policing my child and what he like or make him feel ashamed of it because you don't want your child involved, you could just leave.

[A]

Wow, that's. That's good parenting.

[B]

And then I told the he looked like Maxine. Cause the had, he had the locks with the bottom. And I said, you over here looking at. Looking like Maxine and you worried about Rihanna. And that was. He didn't say up. He say else.

[A]

What I will say is like, yeah, that's like, that's good parenting. And I think that's a good thing to do. And unfortunately, I don't know if you read bell hooks, like, the Will to Change where she talks about, like, look, I know got a lot of problems with bell hooks, but I like her books. She.

[B]

I don't be held up about black people like that, bro. Listen, listen. There's going to be aspects of my personality that people don't like and agree with. That's every black person. You know, I don't need black people to be perfect.

[A]

Thank you. But she talks about how when boys leave the room, leave the home, like, they still are subject to the same thing, the same policing. Like, when they get in schools, you don't know how them other kids. Parents are raising them. So you. They won't go into the same environments where they're told that they have to strip themselves of their humanity. They can't be emotional, they can't be expressive. They can't have too much fun. They can't eat cheesecake, they can't drink lemonade. Like, you name it. Like, it's like the soul masculinity is a prison in and of itself. And I just want more people to free themselves from not not being. Not to say men can't be masculine because. Be masculine. Be who you are, but be who you are. Like, don't feel limited. Like, if you want to, like, get a lemon drop. Because I remember there was this one time this posted a lemon drop on Twitter and they were flaming him.

[B]

It's like, my homeboy be drinking lemon drops. He was like, I like to drink. Okay? That's all I need to know.

[A]

It tastes good.

[B]

And we chilling and we. Bro, this man's my dog. He had a pistol on him.

[A]

Drinking a lemon drop.

[B]

Yeah, we drinking a lemon drop and smoking on the hookah, bro. Yeah, and I'm chilling, bro. This is my dog. We having a great conversation. And it's like, what's wrong with that? You know what I'm saying? And so there's a thing of, like, okay, so this is my thing with, like, girls. It's like, well, that's what girls do. It's like, okay, well, men work, so go take that off. You doing with money? What the Are you doing with money in a bank account? Oh, where are you driving? Now, now, now. It's the problem.

[A]

You can't have it both ways, sister. You can't have it both.

[B]

But none of us can. None of us should want to. Right. The thing is, is that there can't be all of these limitations on what's acceptable for you. And I can't put none on you.

[A]

But I will say women have a lot of those same limitations and expectations on them. And let me shout out to Judith Butler, who I know ain't watching this, but she's the feminist theorist that talks about gender being a performance. And again, I don't think enough people question the performance. Like, why do you feel like you need to wear your hair like that? Why do you feel like you need to wear that, that outfit? Why do you need to. Who taught you that? Who taught you that? And is that true? Will you still be the person you are? Are you still the man that you are? Are you still the woman that you are? The they, them? I don't give a fuck who you identify as. Are you still the person you are at the end of the day without all of the things that you have to adorn yourself with to feel like you are that person?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

A lot of us don't explore that deep on a deep enough level. And I just want more people to be like, like, at least think past the first layer. Like, that's it. Like, who are you and why?

[B]

This is literally the like whole precipice of my come up, bro. If I didn't go through a self discovery, if I didn't accept who I was, if I didn't overtly go after things that I liked, when I liked them, how I liked them, if I, If I didn't say no to the things I want to say no to and yes to the things I want to say yes to in life, you wouldn't know who I am because I would still be performing.

[A]

You just said a word. You don't even. You just said a word. Because I think authenticity really is key. And a lot of people are so tethered to their performances that they never want to step outside of what it is that they're told that they need to do as opposed to what they actually want. Like, I couldn't even imagine, like, where I'd be at in life if I did not step outside of the norm. And I wasn't afraid to be like, yeah, you know what? Fuck it. I just, I'm gonna do my own thing. Like, I don't know. People should be who they are. And that really is the key to, I think, getting, getting into the life that you want and what you need.

[B]

It also just helps you not. You need to not give a fuck, right? But the thing is, is, like, you have to radically give a fuck about yourself, right? Like, you have to. I, I think about the thing, I was having a conversation with somebody because, like, my oldest son is 14, and they was like, oh, man, you getting into them teenagers. I'm like, I'm not fearful of that, bro. I was a teenager. I'm gonna be radically empathetic towards my child. I don't give a fuck about him turning. I'm a cancer.

[A]

Okay, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. I'm like, what?

[B]

You, man, you make it too much right now. Look at it. But the thing is, is that I, I, I would desire for all of my friends, for all of our community, to, like, really do a radical investigation. And I think is. Is that a theme of my show? And all of my guests have done this. Every person that I've ever. Nobody's performing up here. That's why this, that's why the spectrum of it is. So far, I think the only people that may have performed, maybe. No, I don't think maybe the politicians, but even them, I only brought them on because they was being themselves in a campaign not to see it. And it's like, I know there's the political lens they have to play into, but they were still themselves completely. You could tell they know who they are. And it's like, I actually, you know, people say, oh, you should interview this person. You should interview that person. It's like, I should do whatever the fuck I want to do.

[A]

Can I say that? Like, people will literally also hate you for being who you are. Like, they will hate you if you are confident, like, in yourself.

[B]

This is the thing, though. You can't make me hate myself. And I've been there, done that. You know what I mean? Like, been there, done that. You. So this is a skill issue for you. Like, the, the projection is a fear, right? I'm stoking a fear. And you, you stoke a fear in people all the time. Like, black men will talk to me. Like, the whole accountability thing that I went through, right? You mad at me? Because on the cusp, you know, what I'm saying is right on, on the, the, on the, the bigger issue, the system that's at play here is that I'm not performing masculinity right now, because we're not supposed to hold each other accountable. You know what I mean? We're not supposed to accountable. It shouldn't come into our vocabulary. Not when we talking about each other. Also, you must hate me if you want me to be better. You must hate me if you want me to account for my actions. You must hate me if you're not protecting my. My, like, dastardly ways, like, behaving the most heinous ways. And it's like, you're not supposed to say something. No, we're gonna say something. Because the black community that you talk about progressing includes you and your behavior changing.

[A]

They never pay attention to that part. Like, we actually are doing you a favor, like, by trying to get you to get out of this, like, toxicity of, like, constantly doing just nefarious. Like, oh, my God.

[B]

And it doesn't. First of all, these are the niggas. Niggas will be like, man, that sell drugs is stupid. Like, you sell drugs, you know you're gonna go to jail. You gang bang, you know? Well, you know, if you rape a woman, you're going to jail.

[A]

Well, not in this society. You might be president.

[B]

I'm gonna steal something from y' all culture real quick.

[A]

I'm just saying you might become an elected official. Like, I don't know.

[B]

Hey, how do you feel about a surface level? Surface level? How do you feel about, like, the pause? Like, when do the pause?

[A]

I think it's so corny. It's corny.

[B]

I think, okay, so this is my take on it, right? Straight guy here. I think this is funny when it's funny. I think it's corny when it's like, oh, you actually.

[A]

Like, you actually are serious.

[B]

Are you dead serious? I say the gayest I can think of around people that I know when I know that, like, you take this game like, this is a pause because you don't want to say anything home. Like, that could be taken as homosexual or soft or gay. It's like, oh, you really like that? Oh, I'm gonna rip this up. I'm gonna ramp this up.

[A]

But you know what? I think it's, like, similar to the punk thing. Like, that you can tell when somebody's saying it because, like, it's coming from a place where they humanize the. The other people. And it's not from a place of being a slur or an insult.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Versus somebody who is definitely saying it as a slur and an insult.

[B]

Like. Yeah, like, see, here's the thing.

[A]

It.

[B]

If you do a preemptive pause, it's too on your mind.

[A]

Something you want to tell us?

[B]

Yeah, it's too on your mind. You Know what I'm saying? I. I think so. As you were growing up, of course, like when you were saying like, you, you were getting these insults about who you were and how you were presenting and like just who you were in general, how you showed up in the world. You were being insulted by that, by the men in your life. When did you get the confidence to just fully step into that?

[A]

Oh, so I came out of the closet when I went to college. And I will say this because I believe in like the whole picture, right? A lot of gays, like the black gays, like, will really, really like, bunker down and try to shield themselves with accomplishments. And that's what I did at some point in time. Like in high school, I was SGA president, class president, the school editor, I was community organizing. I was doing a lot of stuff to just trying to escape the reality that I was queer. And by the time I got to college, like it got to a boiling point and I came out and once I came out, like, I really was just like, I don't give a. About none of this shit. Like, I'm never gonna let anybody dictate how I am, who I am, how I show up in this world. I'm never gonna apologize for being myself. And it's just been non stop from then. That was like around 19 years old for me. And I remember even when I came out, my dad was going around saying like, I raised my son to be gay. And I heard from one of my cousins and I like, I was really a crash out when I was a teenager, but I called my father, like, are you going around telling people that you didn't raise me to be gay?

[B]

Where are you from?

[A]

I'm from Baltimore.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Down the hill, specifically. It's starting to creep out.

[B]

It's starting to creep out.

[A]

I called my dad, I'm like, did you tell somebody you telling people that you ain't raising me to be gay? He said, no, I ain't say that. I was like, okay. Because I thought it was about to be a. Yeah, I would have.

[B]

Yeah. Respectfully, hey, sometimes you gotta fight your dad.

[A]

I would have, like, yeah.

[B]

But yeah, my dad was, my dad was Mr. Promises in high school. Imma do this, I'm do that. Never do it. Never. I'm gonna show. I'm gonna be there tomorrow and never show up. And I remember I was 24 and I just had my second child and I was kind of like coming to grips with parenthood and like how much I just didn't know what I was Doing. And I called him. I was like, hey, you a bro.

[A]

Sometimes they need to hear it.

[B]

Just straight up, bro, I hate you. You're a ass. And I hung up the phone. Don't you know that Pulled up on me two days later. Oh, from out of state.

[A]

Oh, damn. Did y' all fight? Oh, he was trying to make it right.

[B]

I think he came to check the temperature, but I was still on that. And his thing was. I mean, he just felt disrespectful, but. But I think that more than anything, he knew I was hurt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he tried to show up for a. But he's. But he still won't. Just he. When it comes to conversations about his feelings and emotions, that nigga is not doing that.

[A]

Black men are taught from the day they leave their homes that they cannot be human beings. And when I say that, I mean, they are not to have. They're not allowed to have their full range of emotions, and they are not allowed to express, like, every emotion. And that isolates you from people. When Bri, I don't know if you remember the therapist who got fired because, like. Like, she was cursing in her video. That was so corny, by the way. Everybody who got her fired. But, like, she was. What she was saying was really facts. Like, you need an emotional language. You are going to isolate yourself from community. You're gonna. I'm not surprised when dads who, like, really subscribe to that type of stuff, like, find themselves, like, not in their kids lives because you don't know how to show up emotionally. You have to show up emotionally for children. Their children.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But black men are stripped away from their humanity from a very early age. And I think we have a cultural issue, a deep cultural issue. And it's part of the reason why a lot of people think I hate black men because I'm always going to highlight that cultural issue, and I'm never going to be like, I don't treat people like, with kid gloves, but I don't treat anybody with kid gloves like, who's an adult. I think it's important for us to just have direct conversations about that emotional language and the damage that it does to everybody else around the people who don't have that emotional language. I think we all need to develop it because it hurts communities. Like, my father lacked that same language. Like, I was achieving all of this in high school, and I asked him, like, if he saw some of the.

[B]

Stuff that I was doing.

[A]

I had a commercial on tv. I said, did you see it? He said, yeah, I saw it. That was it. Like, was no pride, no nothing.

[B]

And I need something.

[A]

Nothing.

[B]

I. So my thing with you is this, right? It's like, it never crossed my mind to think that you hate black men. One, because you're a black man. And two, because you're a therapist.

[A]

Like, this is, like, I have black male clients.

[B]

But you're a therap. Your whole thing is everybody thinks I.

[A]

Hate everybody, though, to be fair. Okay, like, they also say, I hate black women, which is, like, also stupid.

[B]

Because it's like, I think that there's a thing of. I'm scared of what this information might do for me, so gotta demonize it.

[A]

The thing is, I don't think I'm right about everything. But I do think, like, when I am right. Like, I get more heat when I'm right. And I know that I'm right because I refuse to back down when I know I'm right. Like when I said, y', all, we can't, like. We cannot, like, dehumanize people who are poor. And to say that poor people shouldn't have kids because if that were the case, a lot of us wouldn't be here. And two, like. Like, we have a systems issue. We cannot, like, focus it on, like, reproductive rights. If you say you believe in reproductive rights, you cannot say that this entire block of people who is oppressed in society should not have reproductive rights. That's not a good idea. And they said that I weaponize my degrees. I said, oh, okay, sorry for going to school.

[B]

But when you born poor, when you're. Okay, so in 50 years, if you're born poor and you get to reproductive age and they sterilize your ass, then what?

[A]

Hey, I mean, look.

[B]

Because I say the same thing. Like, bro, if. If it was about money, a lot of us wouldn't be here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How does the. How does a group in America with the lowest net income amongst any group have all these rules around who can have kids and who can't? You wouldn't be here, let me tell you.

[A]

And that's the part that really stresses me out because, again, my people are like, my main. Like, that's my main. My main, like, focus. When I say, like, well, poverty actually is racialized. And the people who are more subject to poverty look like us in this country than anybody else. It's still crickets. It's like, well, yeah, you shouldn't have a bit. And it's like, yeah, no, I do believe in proper family planning. Like, if you have the means of. You should Wait until you have the means to have a kid. Kids are expensive. I understand that kids, like, need a certain degree of, like, emotional, like, nurturance. I'm a social worker therapist. So, like, I worked in foster care. I'm very well aware of what it looks like. But people who neglect their kids aren't doing so because they're poor. Because poverty isn't even a reportable offense. Because it's not an offense. People be poor and take very good care of their kids. Like, it's not about that.

[B]

But also the idea of money to start a family is one of the newer phenomenons of the world.

[A]

Do you know they're not ready for that?

[B]

Do you know for, like the. Do you know for 99.9% of human history, we've been having babies out of a biological need and response to love?

[A]

You don't. They're not ready for that.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

Yeah, you're waking it up too early. You never be wrong. You just be too early.

[B]

Like, oh, bro. You know, one of the funniest things is when I see a talking point show up and people are like, oh, my God. I never thought it was like, I said that a year ago.

[A]

That happens to me all the time.

[B]

I love a girl too. The creator. I love her. Like, she's. She makes great content. But she's going very viral right now for saying, like, I think future is a pharmaceutical rep. I was like, said that a year ago.

[A]

I saw that.

[B]

Yeah, said a year ago.

[A]

But, like, that is real. Really. Like, it's crazy.

[B]

But then you start thinking about it. I mean, if can. If they can get free Gucci and free Louie and they can be billboards for that, why wouldn't they be billboards for drugs? Why wouldn't they be Boo boys for everything that the CIA wants.

[A]

Fair enough. To be billboards for. I'm. I'm hoping that that's what is driving a lot of the division in our community and not people just being dumb.

[B]

I actually wouldn't with a. On a friendly level if he had 10 kids. Yeah. I think that's after two kids, two baby moms. My. You're pushing it. You're pushing it because what are you doing?

[A]

Yeah. No, but I think that's again, that cultural. As you see how all of these are interwoven. Like, that goes back to that emotional language. Any man who is truly empathetic and truly has the ability to see other people in this community who are not black men as human beings. They will not subject other people to that because.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if you have integrity, I should say, because you would not. And you would not put anybody else who is going through a life just like you're going through a life through that, if you truly had the language, the ability to empathize with other people and to see other people in the community as human beings. But that low key means that you have to see them as human beings, and many of y' all do not. Yeah, Respectfully so.

[B]

Damn, Shane. Yeah, that's it. That's the one. God damn.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Your journey into social work, is this something. How do you. You know, as somebody who didn't pursue anything academic and because the options just didn't seem viable for me, I always wanted to do something creative. How did you land there? And, like, what was. Did you. Is there some internal motivations that was, like, into that, or is this, like, like, fascination by the brain? Fascination by, like, how society is functioning?

[A]

This is gonna sound so. Because, look, people almost never believe me when I say it, but I did not want to be a therapist. I did not want to be a social worker. I actually was in foster care briefly as a kid, so I never wanted that for myself. Like, I hated social workers for a while, and, like, I was organizing, like, community organizing, and I was meeting, like, community social workers. So I was like, all right, fuck it. I didn't know what to do after I went through undergrad. So I was like, it was either law school or social work because, like, these are the people I'm around, the lawyers and the social workers. And I got into nyu. I applied two weeks past their deadline, and they still admitted me. So I was like, it. I guess I'm getting my. I even put off my admittance because I was like, I don't know if I want to do this. And eventually it was just like, it. The universe is pulling me in this direction. I'm going to be a community social worker. I get there, universe has different plans. I meet my mentor. My mentor is like, once I'm graduating, she's like, yeah, I know you want to go straight back to, like, the organizing stuff, but I don't think that's a good idea. I'm actually going to call my friend. Set you up for an interview. She did. My first job was doing family family therapy at an agency for Prevention Care. In social work, in foster care. So when I got thrusted into being a therapist, it just clicked. Like, it made so much sense. And it was to the point where I was, like, offered, like, supervisor positions because, like, I. I Was a natural at it. And it's because, you know, I went through the system. I know what it's like to be on the other end. I grew up in poverty. I know I knew the ins and outs because I was there.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

And. And it just kind of clicked and. I don't know, it just. I feel. I truly believe that if you open yourself up and if you question enough things and you, like, allow yourself to be truly who you need to be and, like, step outside of the program that is often, like, given to us, like, you can put yourself in alignment to get where you need to go. Like, I did not want this. It just kind of wanted you.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's just kind of how it worked, though, because I. I wanted to be a rapper.

[A]

It's not too late.

[B]

No, it's absolutely too late, my brother. I'm telling you, this absol called me once a week. Like, bro, do a verse. No, bro, I think you.

[A]

You can do both.

[B]

I don't want to.

[A]

Okay, fair enough.

[B]

I think that's another thing, too. People, like, they, like, break so talented. It's like, Brad's not about talent. I don't want to do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I'm saying now? Bucket list. Like, maybe and Saul been trying to get me to do this verse for, like, two months, and I just was like, now if I, like, five years ago, hell, three years ago, like, what I would have been jumping up and down, doing back, but I would have sent a. 10 verses. Choose one. But I. I think the thing is, like. Like, it's about positioning. Like, everything I talk about are things that I've experienced, I've been directly impacted by, I've directly observed or things that I've, like, been so studious about that I know it not only when I see it, but when I. When I participate in it, when I see it out in the world. Every. Like, I know the full scope of it. This is my. Like, that's my schooling. Like, that's the thing that I was the most studious about is, like, black studies and, like, black American studies specifically, but also, like, just civil rights and then also, like, understanding the systems that we live in. Like, really understanding them and how they show up and how they affect everybody in the system, not just black people. But I just gotta. I'm. I'm focused on black people because it's like, there's a step that we have to take forward before we can start doing any coalition, before we can start really seeing change in movement. I don't I don't think it has to be a group thing. I just need a group understanding, you know what I mean? I don't need us to all view it the same way.

[A]

You're doing the Lord's work.

[B]

It's. It's not the devil, but I'm the devil, you know what I'm saying? It's like they don't know.

[A]

Congratulations on the Route 100.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

That was a big deal.

[B]

I was like, yeah, that's.

[A]

You deserve that. That was really amazing.

[B]

Thank you. Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I. Yeah, it's been a year, bro.

[A]

Leaning into your purpose.

[B]

I'm telling you, it's been a year. Well, and that's my point, though. It's like I didn't make content. I. I hated the idea of the Internet. I. I didn't like the things that I saw on the Internet or the takes or the things that were pushed. Like, how does this even go viral? This is. So I was having this conversation and I was like, man, it's like. It's like some days you really strike gold on the end of that. Most days this is just bullshit. It's like lottery. And it's like nobody's talking about. And when they talk about it, they don't talk about it in an honest way. And the person was like, yeah, well, why don't you make a video?

[A]

It'd be that simple. Those little moments can really be the thing that will change your life forever.

[B]

Shout out Deanna. I. I give her credit for everything. She swear I don't give her credit for nothing, but we'll cross that bridge one day together. But yeah, it was like, oh, like, this is a whole, like, be the change you want to see. You know what I'm saying? And it's absolutely free. I lose nothing. I'm very, like, comfortable in, like, what my thoughts and opinions on things. And it's only so many times that, like, I can have a one on one conversation with somebody where they're like, this is profound. Like, wow, this is. This is amazing. I've never thought about it like that before. It's just like, all right, well, this ain't. This is a person to person. Maybe I should spread this out. You know what I mean? And it's not really hard to have the conversation. It is disheartening some days because.

[A]

Be.

[B]

Man, bro, tell me about it. God damn, bro. But it's like, like that's the task. It's like if everybody was on board, it really wouldn't be anything significant.

[A]

I will say, like, it's different when you are gay. Respectfully, I believe that.

[B]

Like, I believe that you got a whole nother subset of insults.

[A]

My listen.

[B]

Right. True. I ain't never going. You know what I'm saying? Some of the things they gonna call me. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Yeah. And look, I see you get. You get it, though. Like, I'm not. I'm not knocking that, but, like, it's definitely.

[B]

You know what I'm saying?

[A]

I think people are more willing to listen and less. More forgiving when it comes out of a straight man's mouth versus mine. But it's cool.

[B]

Like, that's real. I think, oddly enough, I learned so much more from. I've learned so much from women and from people from the LGBTQ community. Like, so much, because these aren't my experiences. So, like, how do I learn about your experiences if I don't want to take your word for it, bro? Like, what the fuck? You know what I'm saying? Like, I can't theorize what it's like to be gay, but I can talk to a gay man and you know what I'm saying? Get the perspective. And it's like, I also don't want to be the. That's talking to white people to understand the black experience. Like, I'm not going to do that. So I think that listening without inquiring is a easy path to, like, just revelation, right? Like, I can listen to you talk. I can listen to you talk about your experiences. I can see you in community with your faults without coming over here and just be like, so, what's it like to be gay? You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Horrible.

[B]

Or, or. Or. Or. Or just, like, teach me about the oppression. Oh, that you experience. It's like, get away from me. Get away from me. I'll teach you about something.

[A]

And you can also.

[B]

The gun, right? Teaching about this pistol.

[A]

You can also just be in community with, like.

[B]

And that's. That's the thing, right? And that's why. And so that's why, though, right?

[A]

You have to see us as human.

[B]

That's where I arrived to, like, it's like, this is a. For one, you know, music is a very powerful tool. Music was a big part of, like, my, you know, evolution as a person is when I got out of, like, yo, like, honestly, as big as a hip hop head is, as I am, and as much like, how knowledgeable and, like, people love my takes on hip hop, it's not my go to genre, you know what I'm Saying all the time, it's a vibe, you know what I mean? It just was the thing that I was predominantly listening to because this is the most hyper masculine music you ever gonna listen to. So if you want to be a man's man, you gotta listen to a talk about killing. So you know what I'm saying? I think Bob Marley, so cliche. Such a 24, 25, 26 year old pothead thing. It's just like, you just get into Bob Marley, but if you're paying attention and listening to the lyrics, there was this thing that he says, like, every man thinks that his burden is the heaviest and it's like, oh, so that's me right now. This idea that I, I may not be misunderstood, but I want to be because then I don't have to like work on anything. If I tell you you don't understand what it's like to be me, but I won't tell you what it's like to be me.

[A]

Please, that part, people, please listen to that part. Can you say that one more time? They need to hear it. Jesus.

[B]

If I, if I tell you that you don't know what it's like to be me, but I won't tell you what it's like to be me, then I don't have to grow. I could just play the victim. That's just real. And I hate the way that we've weaponized the word victim because there are victims and villains and you're not soft or you're not, like, you're not a worse person because you're victimized by something. It's just a natural thing. Like the whole system is victimizing us all. And when you want to say, well, I'm not a victim and I'm not going to have a victim mentality, it's like victim mentality and being a victim is two different things.

[A]

A lot of the people who say they don't have a victim mentality definitely have.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you're living in it. You're actively, you're actively using it as a tool to not engage with your growth, right? So like, I know that your experience, even though we have the black male experience in that part, we can use the Venn diagram, right? I don't have the other aspects of it. And also, I didn't grow up in the Northeast. There's so many different layers of this that we're going to experience it. Like we have parallels and then we have those things that are polar opposites. And the only way for me to understand it is. If I listen to you not tell you what I think your experience and that don't help nobody.

[A]

Yeah. I want to say one, one more thing about the victim complex though, right? Because I always say the intersection of a oppressed identity and a marginalized identity is a victim complex. And what I mean by that is like people who have like one marginalized identity and then they have one identity where they intersect and they, they have more privilege. I think like those people typically have a hard time seeing other people they share those parallels with and being able to humanize those other people's experiences is because they think theirs are the worst. Because they, they know what it's like to have like that one marginalized identity. But when it comes to tapping into the, the privilege that they have, they refuse to acknowledge it. Because again, if you acknowledge it, that means that you one, you don't get to like. I could talk about this all day.

[B]

But you know, you notice that people don't like, hit me with the he's a light skinned thing. You notice people don't say that about me because I'm not gonna, I'm not going to identify with it. I understand the disapproval, privilege. I've seen it active in my life where there were people who were better at my job than me, but they were darker skinned and they gave me the promotion and not them. And so, but also too, dealing with police, how they approach me is a little different than how they approach them. They're automatically villains when they pull up. I'm doing the same, if not worse than these niggas is.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? I remember police asked me, he was like, do you even, do you speak English? Are you good? Oh, wow.

[A]

Do you think he was Latino?

[B]

Yeah. I said, no say no, sir. I jumped in that bad. My partner was actively getting harassed by the police. But it's like the benefit of the doubt, right? Also like this, this the, the light skinned privileges. Like you might be one of the good ones, like your mama might be white. So you may have, you may have some of our morals and you know, I just gotta test you out first, make sure you're the right. But it's also like, like when the, when the, when the, the villainous aspect is the skin and the darker the skin, the more villainous you are, then I'm an easy, easier to approach.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. But I also know that this opens more doors for me. This, this gets me heard out. And also like anybody who's ever said anything about me being light skinned if they was dark skinned, it comes from a place of recognizing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're like, I'm being treated differently than you are and I'm being treated worse than you are. And making fun of me is not a systemic thing. Like the jokes, the light skinned, the soft ass, all these things that are like kind of like attributed to being light skinned don't hold me back in life at all. Right. They made hurt my feelings. That's not the same as systemic colorism.

[A]

Yeah. It's not the same how you're able to acknowledge like you, you have that privilege. But you can also talk about the plight of being a black man still, that that is where the victim complex disappears.

[B]

Yeah. Because when I show up in all shucking job, they'd be like, get this out of here.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah, he's still a nigga. Get him out. He hasn't learned.

[A]

But the people who, who aren't capable of recognizing, like, oh, like, yeah, I'm like both white and I'm, I'm a woman. And that's oppressive in itself. But I'm still white, like, who refuse to acknowledge like the privilege they have. They like, if I came to a light skinned person who didn't do that like, type of introspection, they would probably be like, no, like reverse colorism. Like it still hurts me. Like that's what I mean when I say there's a victim complex there.

[B]

It's scary.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's. You're just checking off boxes, bro.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

It's to the point where it's like to discredit me. Tried to say I had a white mom, all these things and it's like, what part of giving away at birth don't you understand? I'm not you. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm just not. You can't make me be you. You can't make me be what you want me to be. And you can't try to discredit me.

[A]

They want you to feel shame for it. That's the first.

[B]

I ain't ashamed of that. My mama and daddy was good to me.

[A]

But they want you to let that be.

[B]

Thank God I was raised by a black woman. Thank God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'd be going through not. I wouldn't be pro life horrific. I wouldn't. I'd be another out here telling you, like, why we need to let go the idea of racism and like that and why we, you know, Jesus.

[A]

We.

[B]

Need to stop being racist. We need to stop being victims of racism.

[A]

Oh God though.

[B]

And I'll be out here, like, trying to make excuses for white people that. You know what I'm saying? It's like, the thing is, it's like I was raised exactly how I was supposed to. Supposed to be. I was showing up in this world exactly the way I was supposed to be. Autumn. Circumstances were aligned to create the person that I am right now. And you can't take that away from me because you don't like it. You can't take that away from me because you feel like I'm stepping on your toes.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And also, not only can you take. Not take it away from me, I don't give a. How you feel about that.

[A]

Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Because a lot of that be online chatter. And I'm telling you, ain't stopping. I'm telling you, you ain't stopping.

[A]

Ain't stopping the damn.

[B]

I'm telling you, I'm in the Route 100. I'm telling you, all my shows are sold out. I'm telling you, they just told me to submit for NAACP Image Award, period. I'm telling you, I don't want two awards this year. And I'm telling you, if you see me, it's up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm telling you, if I see you, it ain't gonna be all this. Some Internet. No. It's gonna be some real life fish hitting your mouth. Okay.

[A]

It's on site for a couple people here in Atlanta.

[B]

You did. But I just want you to know, like, I'm not above that, bro.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I ain't performing activism, bro. I ain't performing.

[A]

They think everybody's performing because they do. Respectfully. That's exactly what it is.

[B]

God damn. And also too, it's like, yeah, like that, that, like that hating. It's like, it's just a part of it. Right. Like, I already know. And. And it's a part that you have to accept. It's a part that I. That you just don't understand sometimes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the. I'm. I'm very benevolent in my effort. Right.

[A]

We speak in the same language because.

[B]

I. I wasn't never doing, like, I didn't even know was making money off of like, tick tocks and like that. I didn't, like, once I discovered that, it was like, oh, this is going to be great because I need some supplemental income. I'm struggling, you know what I'm saying? Even as a truck driver, it still, like, ain't enough. You know what I'm saying? Gratefully, I get paid once a week. You know, luckily is. Is higher than the average person is. And unfortunately, the system has changed and moved the goalpost so much that it still ain't enough.

[A]

It's still not enough.

[B]

I'm not balling. So now I get to do this thing I love. I get to make these videos, I get to talk about these topics, and I get paid for it. Right? Like Whoopi do, bro. Yeah, that's. This is a great avenue. It's amazing. You know what I'm saying? When did. It's like all of these how you hating on for getting money, but then. But then your whole personality is about how you get money. Like, so then they go from, oh, that. Now that everybody getting money. I got to make it specific about how I get my. You are losers.

[A]

Let me tell you something. I. I get so much hate sometimes. I just, like, I have to chalk it up to the game because. And I didn't. I'm be honest. I used to really not get it until earlier this year when I really went through, like, my. My first real, real hate campaign. I've been through a couple, but that was my first real one. Tens of thousands of likes and on videos talking about me, like, I was like, okay, I get it now. Like, I think sometimes people, like, cannot accept when they see a light in somebody else. Like, and they're always confused about a person having something right. And I think because they. Like, a lot of times people don't have that thing themselves, they will assume that you got it through nefarious means. Like, yes. Even when it comes to, like, the whole whole saying that I weaponize my degrees, it's like, what the.

[B]

What that even mean?

[A]

You know, I graduated from college, from grad school, and when I first became a therapist, they said that I rebranded, and I said I graduated and I got a job in my field. Like, what the. Like, are y' all tethered to the same reality as me? Like, it just. Sometimes I think they just live in an alternate reality where we aren't people and we're just. Who are entertainment actors in their phone. Like, I don't. Sometimes I really don't get it.

[B]

Yeah. Because. Well, I think the thing for me is, like, even. Even throughout, like, criticisms that I have of other celebrities, specifically when it comes to music, you know, because that is something that I With, like, and I criticize rappers about their raps. I've tried to steer away from it being personal. Unless you take, like. Unless, like, you take a public stance that is just like, what the are you talking about?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm still criticizing the stands and not the person like. And I, I, at this point, I have so much empathy for people who have been in the public eye because it's like Jesus Christ. And for me, and it's like to keep it a bean, I'm D list, you know what I mean? I'm a D list. More know Natalie none. And they know me, you know what I'm saying? And she's a severe D lister, so you know what I'm saying? Like, so I'm really F tier celebrity, but I'm black famous too. So it's like niche black. Black. It's very niche black. And it's like. And the, that say about me is also the thing that I had to prepare myself for because I saw it happen with others. This is the thing. There's always going to be black people that come up. There's always going to be black people that everybody love on social media and there's going to be one person that has a criticism of them that's going to go viral and it's going to, it's going to basically dictate the group thing because if everybody not on board with you, then you going to get tore the fuck up. But if you did something and now people are on board with. And it's just about when your time is going to come. When is the time going to come where everybody going to change up on you and it's not going to be everybody. It's going to feel like everybody, but it's also coming from people who haven't supported you, haven't showed you love and have been sitting back watching you coming up, waiting on somebody to tear you down so they could jump on top of that. And that exists in every aspect of life. And it's enhanced by the public eye and it's enhanced by how much love you've gotten. But I also think it's a universal check and balance. Like, okay, you've gotten all this love over this year. I need to. Yeah, I need to keep you tethered to reality. Like, you can't deify yourself even if you're being deified by others. You need to know that. Hate you too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As much as they love you, it's gonna keep you human. Yeah.

[A]

I will say though, it is very frustrating. But I had, I think one of the, my biggest hurdles was like actually, and I mean, I still kind of work through it a little bit where it's like, I don't be understanding why so many people have so many thoughts and opinions because it's like, to me, in my head, I'm just shyim. Like, I'm not. I don't view myself as, like, no celebrity. I don't view myself as, like, Like. Like, I know at this point I'm a public figure because they pretty much forced me to call myself that. But, like, I. In my mind, like, I'm just a social worker who's, like, using the Internet as a means to, like, spread awareness about the. And I live my life like everybody else.

[B]

I.

[A]

Like, I think it just some. It took me a long time to be like, okay, these. Like, it's not about me. Like, it's also not about me. It's about. About them, is partially about me in the sense that they see me as, like, a conduit to which they could, like, get their aggression out. Out from the rest of the world. Like, they're taking the anger out on me. But a lot of the times it's not about me. And I mean, some criticisms against me, I think are like, like, fair. Like, I'm not above criticism. But sometimes it's, like, so deeply personal, like, their attacks, like, it's just like, you're. You don't know me. Like, I had somebody yesterday.

[B]

I'm talking.

[A]

About getting Lasik, like, because I got Lasik a couple years ago. They're like, how are you a therapist giving people this advice? I said, I didn't even give anybody advice. I just said, I like my Lasik. I think it was worth it.

[B]

And, like, so there's also this thing that we have to, like, understand, too, that we exist in a box for some people, right? So you exist in a box of the. You are just the gay, black, the therapist. You are not a person. So when you start talking about people, they like, what the is this talking about? And why. It got nothing to do with therapy. It's like. It's like the polarizing thing of seeing, like, Kev on stage and see him talking, like, so open openly about sex and so openly and crying and things like that. It's. It's difficult at first to humanize it when you just used to. Kev on stage, the comedian.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And why ain't this laughing? And why aren't he saying something that make me laugh? Right? And that's just an example, because I don't think. I think that people are. Love Kevin are very accepting of the full spectrum of him. But as an example, right? It's like when I'm joking and laughing and I'm saying something that's just observational or like, it's not. I'm not dropping a gym is in the comments. But, like, how is this gonna fix the black community? Shut the up, yo.

[A]

You know what I get? One thing that happens for me is when I post rap lyrics, like, this happens a lot. Like. Or I'll be like, enjoying a rap song. Like, people who don't know that it's rap lyrics, they'll be like, how are you talking like this as a therapist? It's like, bitch, it's the city girls lyrics. Like, what are you talking about?

[B]

I'm not at work.

[A]

They think my job is.

[B]

Why are you okay as a forklift driver? Why are you driving a car? You see how crazy that sounds?

[A]

No, like, they think it's my whole life. And it's. It's.

[B]

It's terrifying and it's because of how. And so there's dynamic personalities. You have a dynamic personality.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

And, you know, there's like, there's humor, there's attractiveness. It's all of these different things, right? And so then you have a, like, feeling inside of you that has to tug of, like, am I responsible for this or not? And, like, I relinquish our responsibility for what other people think about me because. Because I'm not like some fake ass man that don't bother me. That be hurting my feelings sometimes when talk crazy about me. And like. And it hurt my feelings even more that I can't do shit about about it.

[A]

I'll be wanting to fight.

[B]

Yeah, bro. I wanted like, bro, let's see what's up.

[A]

For real.

[B]

Why are you talking crazy about me, bro? You don't know me.

[A]

It's still on site for a couple people.

[B]

And it's. No, that's real rap.

[A]

Yeah. No.

[B]

And I be telling my homeboys, like, man, I'm up here with it. I'll never be in the same room as these. Never be in the same room as you who make all your videos in your car. I'm not getting in the car with the you.

[A]

The last time I was in a. In.

[B]

The only way we'll be in the same room is if I'm in your city and call that Uber.

[A]

I was at this.

[B]

You know. You know what's disrespectful about that? Them ain't Uber drivers. My bad.

[A]

Oh, J. Me and Jamila were at a conference earlier this year and, yeah, love, Javila down. Somebody who was talking about me on the Internet came up trying to apologize. And, like, I was so pissed because it was the type of conference where it's like, I can't do this. I can't do this here.

[B]

Yeah, you can't do have a moment.

[A]

But I did ask him to step outside and he ain't step outside. It's just like, I think you have to watch your mouth because although, like.

[B]

I'mma keep it real with you, bro. Gay man, gay black man asked me to step outside. Not stepping outside. I'm actually gonna call the cops. You.

[A]

I think people. People confuse me.

[B]

I've been stepping outside with all my life. I had to fight. I'm not doing that with you, bro. I'm not doing that with you, cuz. We not doing that.

[A]

Oh, I tell you what.

[B]

Hey, I'm putting.

[A]

You know what I mean? I believe in peace, love and light. I do, I do, I do. Like.

[B]

That's funny as I think the.

[A]

But I don't. Yeah, like, I hate to get there, but a lot of people confuse me having degrees and for like me now.

[B]

Also, like, this is the. Like the. The. You can't dehumanize people. Your auntie got money. You know how she acted at Thanksgiving. You know, this ain't got nothing to do with her occupation. She like to drink.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? So, yeah, Monday through Friday, lawyer, pillar of the community. Can call her when you need something, but at the holiday, she got one too many tequila shots. She start talking crazy.

[A]

Listen.

[B]

She bring up some from the past. Who has a nigga's gonna fight. It is what it is. That's not. That doesn't mean she's a. A worse lawyer now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is my occupation. And I don't know what to tell about the fact, like, I don't. I don't drive trucks no more. So I'm a media personality because I own a media company. But like, the thing is, it's like I'm not waking up every day doing media. I got kids, you know. Like the. You know the first thing I thought about when I woke up this morning as I washed my face, brush my teeth. What the is I'm gonna make these kids for dinner. I was like, oh, we got some chicken. Like, I also like trying to consolidate. Like, how long has this been left over? Okay. I just put that in the refrigerator yesterday. We getting that back cracking day. We're gonna remix this. You know what I'm saying? I'm gonna turn some. Something, something getting turned into soup today. Oh, Lord. I'm gonna make. I'm gonna make like a loaded baked potato chicken soup. We're gonna do it up because it's already chopped. Listen, and them ain't trying to eat tacos two days in a row. I know my kids listen. But this is what I'm thinking about. And you think I'm thinking about Chewy Newton.

[A]

Yeah. You know, black. Black mamas used to spaghetti you to death.

[B]

I'm grateful for my mom four days a week that it was crazy. I'm grateful that my mom was southern as she was, and we had a variety. Now it was like. It was kind of like school, you know what I'm saying? Next Tuesday, we probably finna eat yellow rice, chicken, and. And llama beans. And I' ma hate that because I hate llama beans. Hate them. But she gonna make it because she got her routine.

[A]

I definitely grew up around.

[B]

She got. She got like 12 rest. She got 12 dishes, bro. You know what I'm saying? And them is on the cycle. They on the cycle. And I know that when we. I know when it's spaghetti time, the stamps, they're running, they run it low. Because my mama ain't never made no Alfredo. I used to ate Alfred. I used to eat ALFORDO As a TV dinner. Like, it was just some. It was a green box, whatever. Marie Antoinette, whatever. I don't think that's.

[A]

Yeah, I don't think that's. I don't think that's a secret. Second thing. Yeah, Yeah, the. The one who got her head.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Autumn white. Either way. This used to make TV dinners. And that's the first time I had, like, Alfredo. And so it's like, I know if we eating. I know if we eating a TV dinner or spaghetti, it's gonna be a week.

[A]

Week.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? Don't ask for nothing. Don't ask for nothing. Just vibe go. You go eat what you kill, bro.

[A]

No. Yeah.

[B]

But I don't know where we was going.

[A]

I don't know where we were talking.

[B]

About last, but we just had a moment. So let's talk. Let's talk about this. I'm give you the floor on this one.

[A]

This is.

[B]

This is your expertise. How do you feel about people weaponizing therapy terms?

[A]

I think that the word narcissist hit the. The community, the streets, like crack in the 80s. And I hate it because they overuse it, they misuse it often. Even, like yesterday, somebody was. The day before yesterday, somebody had said something like, yeah, I'm a. I love, love bombing. Like, I'm a real lover, like. And I'm like, I don't think y' all understand that that's like an abuse tactic. Like, it's a manipulation tactic to control somebody. It's not just you showing love to somebody. It's intentional, it's malicious, it's manipulative. And it's like a lot of people take these, like, therapeutic, well researched, well studied terms and they like, flip it on his head or they reduce it and minimize it because, I mean, it will, I guess, open the floor for you to go viral for some people. But it's just like, not. It really is just not. It does more of a disservice than anything else. Like, I hate. Oh, my God, I hate the phrase trauma bonding the way people use it. It's not just like you and a friend or somebody bonding over having a shared trauma. That's just bonding. Like trauma bonding.

[B]

We're literally all having our traumas and bringing them to the table.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Yeah. Can you explain, like, what the definition of trauma bonding is?

[A]

Trauma bonding is when somebody basically is manipulating someone emotionally to bond to them because they withdraw affection and get them accustomed to them. Basically punishing them, abusing them, and then withdrawing affection to keep the person, like, attached to and needing them.

[B]

A bond through trauma? Yes, through traumatizing.

[A]

Through traumatizing and abusing someone. It's not the same thing as. As like sharing an experience that's traumatic.

[B]

Got trauma bonds with your parents.

[A]

You. Oh, Jesus. You're not wrong.

[B]

Now that you explained it, however.

[A]

You.

[B]

Know, I don't speak about things I don't know about. And I've never just like, I wonder what trauma bonding really is. I never did that. I was just like, I don't think they're using that right.

[A]

No, you're absolutely correct in your, Your statement. It though. But no, as a therapist, I would slow walk that.

[B]

But yeah, that's why you do what you do.

[A]

I would, I would have slow walked.

[B]

In a little bit.

[A]

I would have walked that in a little bit slower than that. But I, I get, I get what you're saying.

[B]

Yeah. It seems like every quarter there's a new word that people are using. I don't know what the word of the quarter is right now. I would have to think about it. If I get on social media and I see it. I know, but I know that for the longest it was narcissist.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I've been calling some people just assholes.

[A]

Like, every isn't a narcissist.

[B]

You know what I'd be telling people, though? And like, on initial. On the initial first of all, like, kind of, like, through my humor, you could tell I'm kind of an. But I be telling people, like, nah, I'm like, I know that about myself. I know I could be, like, a. And like, just purposely inflammatory towards somebody, and I don't care.

[A]

Do you know what, though? What? I found people. People who really have met narcissists, like, and I mean, diagnosed diagnosable kind of narcissist. Like, they don't throw that word around, like, a lot.

[B]

Yeah. Because you're gonna be in for it.

[A]

When you meet one. It's. It's very vastly different than just like.

[B]

This is like, meeting Michael Myers. Like, you can't escape these people.

[A]

Miko Myers. Yeah. I just think, like, I hate the way that people use the terminology. And, like, one, they disrespect the profession every day. Like, I'm. I'm subject to that. I see all my other fellow black therapists on the Internet just constantly subject to scrutiny. People do not respect what we do. They don't think that you need a degree to do the shit that we do.

[B]

Oh, really? Yes.

[A]

Okay. Like, oh, my God. I'm a trauma therapist, specifically emdr, which is, like intensive trauma therapy. Like, it is something that you need thousands of hours to be able to do. And people be like, why can't I just read this book and do it on my own? I was just like.

[B]

Because you think like that.

[A]

Well, facts.

[B]

Because the fact that you think. All right, go ahead.

[A]

A lot of people don't respect the profession. And I think that's why a lot of people, like, run around misusing these words, diagnosing people. Every time it's somebody having some sort of mental health episode on the Internet, everybody comes out diagnosing. People have. It's just. It's a mess.

[B]

How do you feel about that whole thing with. And this is very, very, very off kilter for me. But you remember when I was the. Keisha. How you say her name?

[A]

Keisha Kor.

[B]

Huh? With the Gucci man thing and schizophrenia. And a lot of people's like, that's not schizophrenia. And it's like, oh, well, I don't.

[A]

I'm not quite aware of what symptoms he's had. But.

[B]

But there has to be a spectrum of things. It's not just like this. Yeah. Because it's like. I think most people think that schizophrenia is just people who hear voices. Like. Like everything you learned is from movies and TV shows.

[A]

I think that's not even the focus of that situation. I think the focus is Keisha Kor is not qualified to be doing coaching or, like, telling people how to handle people with mental.

[B]

That's real.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if that was the conversation. Yeah, then I would be. I fuck with that.

[A]

But she's offering coaching classes.

[B]

The conversation. Ooh, damn, boy. Niggas, boy, they love a course, boy. I. It's almost so endearing to me.

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

Because do you know, they're like, right now, I could probably start a podcast course of how to start, how to market, how to. I would never. I'm not. No. I'm like, bro, but are always finding licks. And to think about. See, the conversation I was having or. Or I was seen being had is that he may not be schizophrenic and she may be keeping him sedated and handling him so that she can, like, manipulate him and handle his funds or whatever. But also, it's like, there's this odd thing of, like, you don't think people change when they go to prison. Like, he was fat, congested, and you've never seen him not be fat and congested. He's also never seen him not on drugs. So you've never seen this person sober. Sober, and you've never seen them in shape. So when they come out sober and in shape, you telling me that you think this nigga's a clone?

[A]

Well, you know, any famous black and institutionalized.

[B]

Let's not.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Miss that part. He's also institutionalized.

[A]

All famous black people have to sell their souls to the devil to even be famous to begin with. You know, that's how they think. So, yes.

[B]

Yes. Business has been good.

[A]

Who. Who. I. My favorite question from all of that is, why would you clone Gucci, man? Like, who wins from that? What the do you get from cloning Gucci?

[B]

What are we gaining from cloning Kodak Black?

[A]

Who. Who is looking for a Kodak clone? Like, I personally don't know what I would do with that.

[B]

Like, and what's the real one doing, right?

[A]

Matter of fact, if there was. If there was a clone, I would be like, okay, like, yeah, I guess. Like, what the.

[B]

Is the clone gonna be a better person?

[A]

Right? Like, that has, like, zero impact on me. Like, so I don't understand.

[B]

Listen, bro, we. You know, 2012, the Illuminati videos were running rampant, you know, and this is why. Think I'm in the black boule now, and I'm. I'm. I'm an agent and all these things. And it's like, bro, if you realize, like, if agents behave this way. I ain't scared of them. If they behave the way that I do in the privacy of my. If they just in the crib, like in a boxers playing Ghost of Yotai, them are not a threat to me. They're not a threat to me.

[A]

I've gotten accusations like that before, too. And I'm just like, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

I literally be home with my cat. Like, my boyfriend's here. He'll tell you. Like, I be like, I don't know, agent shit, bro.

[B]

This shit is unappealing.

[A]

Frankly, I don't even like leaving my house half the time.

[B]

So can they invite me to, like, the. The.

[A]

I'm on this so we can give.

[B]

Some validity to these claims. I'll be a whistleblower.

[A]

How about you get from the Illuminati? I do have a couple people I would sacrifice. No shade. I have a list of family members ready to go if y' all are ready to come get me. Just putting it out there.

[B]

It's just like, I don't like this idea of, like, black success and fame because yesterday I was relatable in an everyday person and today I'm paid. What a Paid what? That called me a plant, Not a plant. I've been called that too.

[A]

That's so crazy.

[B]

And paid by the dnc.

[A]

Oh, I got that accusation, too. Somebody said they gave you $50,000. I said 50.

[B]

50 bears my. I wish they did. Where's the check?

[A]

Can I petition for it?

[B]

Bro, if they pay me, you gonna know.

[A]

There will be signs. There will be signs.

[B]

Such a Negro, bro. Because I'm like. I'm hustling right now every day, looking up box Chevys.

[A]

There will be signs.

[B]

There's gonna be signs. If I just pop out with that, like, from. From like, I was just wearing some dirty air forces the other day to, like, now I'm in a. Like, like, come on my. I. I think the thing is, is that, like, I'm on a. I'm on a grind, right? Like, it's a. It's a continual leveling up in life, and I'm appreciative of the fact. And I know that the opposite side is just gonna come from Negroes that ain't doing. So they have to judge me for doing and not having because they see me go from not really having, but being everyday working class to like, it leveling up. And I'm sitting in a room with certain people and I'm at certain places and I'm being honored in certain ways, and it ain't got Nothing to do with me for real, but it is odd. And then it's like, damn, have I ever said a was in Illuminati? Because I was deep into that. I was like, damn, my bad, cuz. I mean, put the devil on you. My. I ain't know nothing better. Yeah, ain't nothing no better.

[A]

I will say, it's like such a different experience. Like, I also, like, once, like, the ball started getting rolling for me, and, like, I honestly, again, I still, like, I'm like. Like, I'm just Shaheem. I don't understand it sometimes, but I do get invited into certain rooms that I know certain people would kill to be in. I touch elbows with people who people love and are fans of, like, from time to time. So I can get why people would feel like this. Then got here by sacrificing some chickens.

[B]

No, like, some of us just work.

[A]

Hard, like, in our lucky. It is like a combination of hard work and love, you know what I'm saying?

[B]

I hit the algorithm at the right time. Talking about the right. With the right amount of information and the right amount of charisma where it's like, let's hear more of this nigga's taste. Yeah, that's really all it is. You know what I'm saying? Because I have posted hell of videos that ain't cracked 2, 300 views. You know what I'm saying? I just think, you know, I'm where I'm supposed to be, bro. You know, that's like, the best way for me to look at it, and I'm grateful. And it's like, people act like you can't talk about the other side of it or like, you can't put like. Like everything in life has positives and negatives. You know what I mean? And I think that once we experience success, that we can't speak on negative aspects of it or there can't be negative aspects of it. And I get it when they say, like, more money, more problems, but I think also, too, it's like, there's a lot of less problems, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, like, so there. There has to just always be a healthy balance of, like, everything in life has good and bad, bro.

[A]

You know, I live in New York. More money means more bills. Because it's not. Yeah, Yeah.

[B]

I don't know why you live there. Well.

[A]

Fair. But I. I ain't moving, so. I love yours.

[B]

Good on you, bro. I love that for you. I mean, look, how has things been in your. In your family dynamic with a little bit more Visible visibility and success.

[A]

Oh, my nieces and nephews think I'm a celebrity, and they think I'm rich because they always asking for money. My nephew. I was at my family family's crib around Halloween, and they these. My nephew's birthday's coming up, and he's like. I'm like, what do you want for your birthday? He's like, oh, like, I want $50. And my other nieces and nephews standing around, they're like, that's all you're gonna ask for. If you ask this for, like, X, Y, and Z here. I'm like, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

I'm not giving none of y' all nothing. I mean, it's been nice, though, because it has afforded me the opportunity to show up, up, like, and help my family out financially. Like, my family, we all from the hood. Like, so it's like, I can, like, help when there's, like, gaps in, like, what their parents can do. Yeah, I can, like, give. They always ask me for. For money, like my nieces and nephews, but it really does help me to be, like, a better uncle. But the visibility part is a little annoying. I think they see me in a light that, like. Like, it's vastly different how they saw me before versus how they see me now, I think. But for my sisters, though, I'm always going to be like their brother. And that's. They don't. That's real give a about that. But, like, yeah, it's like, that's the biggest change in the dynamic is, like, I can, like, actually be a resource in ways that I wasn't able to before. Like, my nephew came to me like, I need help with this parking ticket. I helped him pay a parking ticket. But, yeah, that's pretty much it. Like, but I also feel like I'm just myself. Like, that's never changed. And I kind of always have. Like, moved through the world the same way. Like, I'm not nothing. Not much has changed, Shaheen. That never is gonna change. Like, I'm the same from, like, way back when. So it just really, like, outside of, like, probably not being as much of a crash out, but, like, still crashing out every now and again. But, like, you know.

[B]

Nah, the energy is. Is. Is. Is. It's potent.

[A]

Is it?

[B]

Oh, yeah, I can tell. I can tell. You got some loose screws, bro.

[A]

It's a couple loose ones. We're tightening them still, you know, I'm a human being. I'm still learning.

[B]

Exactly, bro. I don't think that is a more or less thing, bro. I think that's just like some human. I appreciate you for pulling up too. If you got any parting words for the people, anything to plug this your camera right here. Be who you are.

[A]

Like question your identity. But even more than that, stop hating and some of us will smack you in real life. That's it.

[B]

Salutations.

[A]

It's the truth.

[B]

You can't follow that up.

[A]

Just being honest.

[B]

I just want to rap man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They say without the proper label but faith don't stand a chance I put my faith in faith and stand on fertile land I planted seeds that'll indeed turn into trees before rest in peace teas get printed to me. Listen, you ever realized there was a doctor's appointment you meant to make like a year ago? Maybe that cleaning you rescheduled three times or that annual checkup you swear you're gonna get to eventually life be lifein' but your health still matters. You can actually book that appointment right now before this ad is even over. Thanks to ZocDoc. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and instantly book an appointment. They have more than 100,000 in network doctors across every specialty. Mental health, dental, primary care, urgent care. They got everything you can filter for. Doctors who take your insurance, are close by, match the type of care you need, and are highly rated by verified patients. When you find the right doctor, you can actually see their real availability. Choose a time that works for you and book instantly. And the best part, appointments on Zocdoc happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. And a lot of the time you can get same day appointments. I use this and you should too. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com grits to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That z o c-o c.com grits zocdoc.com grits.