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- [00:00]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
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- [00:35]
Big Cat
Yeah. Woke up in the morning and to God be the glory Thankful for another day to tell my story Put my opinions in the universe and let them orbit I'm from the dirty soul with a dirty mouth Might need or bit miss things Things on me like a Norbit had to refuse them cause my no rest fusion she gorgeous as I doubt my sons up and kiss my daughter forehead Tell them we gonna get this money like it's morbid. Remember living in apartments now we playing mortgage. It's like a meditative practice for me.
- [01:08]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, that's how the shower is.
- [01:09]
Big Cat
I be like, man, I need a bigger shower, bro. Like, I ain't gonna hold you. Like my shower, really shoulder to shoulder and everything. Like. Like, I got a big ass tub, but the shower is like in a corner.
- [01:20]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [01:21]
Big Cat
You can't rotate like that. Like in order. Like, I gotta move the shower head to really like do your thing. Like to. To be like. Cause I don't like, like, I don't. You know how like films niggas will have a. They'll lather under the water. That is like, what we doing that for? You don't even wash a car like that. Imagine washing the car and as you washing it, you rinsing it off. That ain't even how that goes. You gotta let that soap set in. You know what I mean? It's like when niggas walking around here, musty, you just whatever. But the thing is, it's like I was like, bro, I would have traded out this whole tub.
- [01:55]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, no, I need the tub. I beat crisscross applesauce. Like, need a spiritual bath.
- [02:02]
Big Cat
Spiritual bath. Yeah, I'm having all types of herbs at the bottom. I around and didn't strain the herbs and I was like, damn, this ain't got stopped.
- [02:10]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Well, would you let it? Oh, or just when you dry it.
- [02:15]
Big Cat
All in the bottom of my, like.
- [02:16]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Just sweep it up when it dries is what I do sometimes.
- [02:19]
Big Cat
Nah, I just let that. I was like, damn, it was water just sitting in the.
- [02:25]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Plunger. Yeah.
- [02:26]
Big Cat
Go get a pl. What is this? Episode one hundred and something? We are back with the highly requested Dr. Taylor Cummings. Welcome back.
- [02:38]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Thank you. Happy to be here.
- [02:40]
Big Cat
I'm glad you came back. Short notice. Our fastest returning guest, only our third returning guest. Is that how you been?
- [02:46]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I've been good. I've been transitioning, feeling good. Just trying to, you know, stay true to the momentum.
- [02:52]
Big Cat
You back in Virginia?
- [02:53]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yes.
- [02:53]
Big Cat
How is that?
- [02:54]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
It's good. I felt like an immediate, like, energetic. Just. I don't know if it was a homecoming thing. That's why I was born and raised. And, you know, being in different states and cities for college and grad school and things of that nature, just returning home, I think is very significant, maybe for ways that I'm not even yet aware of, but I feel incredible.
- [03:12]
Big Cat
It's always good to go back home. I went back to. I'm originally from Wilmington, North Carolina, and when I left. When I left with my mom and then my dad left, it was really no reason for me to ever go back. So I lost contact with a lot of people, like, I went to school with. And then I went back this summer just for whatever. I don't know what it was. I was just like, y' all want to go to where I grew up at? And they was like, hell, yeah. And it's a nice beach out there. It's a whole vibe and not just running. The people I went to school with, they still knew who the hell I was. But it felt really, like, good to be back at the crib, though. It was like, damn, man. I remember this. I remember these streets from when I was a kid. What's one of your favorite places that you went outside of home living?
- [03:54]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I'd say Las Vegas. Honestly, it was incredible. It was very different. I also lived in Pittsburgh for a little bit, and that was really cool. Very industrial. But it was also my first. Your time away from home. But I'd say Vegas was probably the most international experience I had because you have people constantly coming in and out. You have the best of both worlds. You have obviously crazy fast nightlife, but then you have nature. So LA was right there. Take a solo trip to Malibu. You can go do whatever you want to do. And so I really enjoyed my time.
- [04:20]
Big Cat
Yeah. Because it means dead in the middle of the desert. Yeah. Pittsburgh is one of those weird spots. I used to go to Pittsburgh a lot I used to work out of Erie and Pittsburgh is like still kind of holding on to like what it was as far as how, how it's laid out. But it's like, damn, it was interesting.
- [04:36]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I learned a lot, but I'd even say north. I, I, I honestly love every place I've been because Greensboro was obviously life changing for me at A and T. And then my time in Raleigh, great. There was a great black community. Even though it was small, like it was a lot of up and cominging folks, a lot of engineers coming through, a lot of like mini Silicon Valley vibes. So there was great energy in terms of just we had open mic nights weekly. Like there was a lot of good community going on out there. So I enjoyed my time there too.
- [05:00]
Big Cat
Speaking of Raleigh, we'll be in Raleigh on March 22, kick off their first cousins tour. Just a little plug, you know what I'm saying?
- [05:09]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, yeah.
- [05:11]
Big Cat
They told us we can announce it now because we finally locked in our date. So we'll be Raleigh, March 22, Birmingham, April 1 at the Stardome. Jacksonville, Florida, April 7, Charlotte, North Carolina, April 14, then Nashville, Tennessee, April 28. That'll be our first little round.
- [05:30]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Congratulations.
- [05:31]
Big Cat
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. If you can come out to any of our shows, let me know. I got you. So you've been, you've been into the Patreon?
- [05:40]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Uhhuh.
- [05:41]
Big Cat
Yeah. Yeah. How, how was that experience? First of all, when you came in there every. It was like everybody who was a member just decided to be in there that day. Everybody was so excited to have you in there.
- [05:52]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
No, I was one just grateful to be welcomed with such open arms, especially just understanding like what we discussed our last episode. So just being accepted for me and just seeing the response was really truly humbling. And I was just extreme gratitude, but also like your viewership. Intelligent, brilliant, loyal. And so I'm just grateful, like I'm really grateful for the people I've been able to connect with. Hopped on a couple calls with some people. So it's been super dope. Just learning what people are doing, what they're into, and how I can be of better service and how I can better support and provide resources for people, you know, on their different journeys.
- [06:23]
Big Cat
Absolutely. Yeah. I was excited to see how like, not even receptive, but just like they was like, what's that book list like? Give me that list. Yeah. And then when you get like, I could tell those people that are in the Patreon are very like proactive about you. Give us something. We're Gonna go deal. So like I have a once a week where I post like a video essay, something that I'm watching or a sub stack that I thought was interesting. And it's like the discussions that come from around those things I always like to kind of feed to the audience because even we do our live shows. Taj knows this, but I ask them questions. Cause it's like I think the general consensus is we going to a show, it's about what you got to say and then we want to ask you questions. But I'm curious because I feel like we've cultivated like a very smart audience and some of the discussions that have sparked just from audience answers, man, like that Atlantucky show, man, like this young lady, was she going through it like new mom situation. Taj is a doula. So you know what I'm saying? Her just all the support that women gave her and that mama, you could tell she really needed it. But it's like I'd just be kind of sitting back and all like, damn, bro.
- [07:41]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I think it's the practice of true education and what education is. You don't treat people like they're empty vessels. You understand that they are entire human beings who have full life experiences and have a lot to bring and contribute to the conversation. So it's not a one way street. And I think even being in your patreon was motivation for me too. Just because so many people are asking for more of me. And it's been difficult sort of navigating that because I am a researcher first, you know, and content and all that stuff is supportive of that. But really understanding like how to situate yourself, how to share knowledge, how to share information without it feeling exploitative and extractive and like you're on the wheel of like productivity and production and all those types of things. So I think it was dope just to see like how many people are thirsty for knowledge and knowing that that's what it is and figuring out, you know, the best ways, like I said, to be of service and to provide those resources.
- [08:25]
Big Cat
Hell yeah. Yeah, I've been grateful, I'm grateful like to that I can also take a risk with the guests where it doesn't always have to be somebody who has the biggest following or celebrity because I think that it's. There's a. We're accustomed to seeing people with platforms interview other people with either large platforms or like long standing notoriety. Normally those people are entertainers. And so it. I always want to take the opposite approach to it because it's like, okay, if I sit down with an entertainer, they have also 20 other interviews that you can go watch. So how original can the questions be? How much more do you really get to know about this person? Or is it just an excitement seeing these two people in the same room? And I'm always going to approach it, I would say, differently than most, but I would think that it was more valuable for the audience to really have somebody that's done. You've. You've got. Got these accolades through, like, true hard work, and it's not easy, you know what I mean? And there's no celebrity attached to that.
- [09:32]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah. And it's funny you say that too, because you probably don't remember this, but I do. I had maybe like 5,000 followers on TikTok, and I had made a video. You had reposted it. You was like in my comments, like, keep going, keep going. And I was like, okay, that's dope. And then I think I had followed you maybe around that time or right before that time, this was. I think you were still in the truck, maybe maybe on your way out. And then Hillman talk came around. So Hillman talk, I might have had, like, almost 10k, right? I was like, oh, I'm about to break 10k this week. And then Hillman talk popped off. So then everyone's, like, flooding to, like, all the scholars and academics, and I got like, 10k in a night. So then I jumped to, like, 20k. And then from there, it's just been kind of like, you know, steady, slow growth for me. I'm not, like, chasing. That's not who I am and what I am, but allowing, like, the work to speak for itself, allowing my own journey to just manifest in its own way. And so just understanding what that looks like. And like you said, like, how you build, you know, notoriety, how you build longevity, you know, Know, we know familiarity breeds contempt. We know, like, a lot of this, the way that we have to show up or the way that we think we have to show up. So, like, a lot of, like, our TikTok philosophers getting run off the net and not even saying run off in a derogatory way because they are making a conscious choice, right? And an autonomous choice to say, I'm not going to participate in this anymore. Like, lip gloss, like, love her down. And it's like, you know, we. Those voices are so important. But because of the way that the Internet's set up, it really does put a. Put a wedge in between our true intellects and the way in which we engage with the public.
- [11:00]
Big Cat
Yeah. The. The ability to identify, like, body content is getting a little bit more sticky, but also it's an influx. Right. I'm only one person, so, like, 200 people coming at my neck at one time is, like, crazy.
- [11:18]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [11:18]
Big Cat
You know what I mean? You know, around the time when the whole Antichrist thing was going on, I was like, yo, I'm actually tired of y' all talking about me. Like, not. Not in a way where I want to stop, but it's like, damn. Like, I'm not used to seeing myself on my timeline. And it's like every other video, somebody making a saying something about me, I'm like, okay, I've definitely made an impact somewhere. I need to be able to take the optimistic approach of, like, this is good. This is a conversation starter. But it's also like, damn, bro, this is a little exhausting. But these are the times where it's like, oh, okay, it's time for me to take a break. You know what I mean? I can't engage with this from a social aspect because right now, everything is about me, and I'm cool on it. I'll just go find something else to do. In the meantime, which we've discussed, 2026 is, like, for me, I think a time where people need to get back and becoming hobbyists instead of searching for new streams of income. Find something that sustains you and brings you joy just from a simple space of, like, I enjoy doing this. Like, the young lady downstairs, that yarn hat she has on, she made that.
- [12:24]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Wow. Yeah.
- [12:24]
Big Cat
And I was like, shit, I want one. You know what I mean? Like, and it becomes a business. Well, but even just so it's so I can put it on here, and it's like, I just want to wear it here. And it's like, but. And. But people that are doing things that are, like, engaging them with their hands and their thoughts is, like, important, you know, if we are commodifying every third space to a point where people don't want to be there. They're like, you have to create spaces for yourself in your home. So, like, this year, and shout out. I never thought I would ever say this. Shout out. N conset, though. But, like, because he's, like, actively reading and he's got a dictionary on deck, and it's like, the bravery it takes to know, like, I don't know everything, and I want to know more, but I also want to be better at public speaking. I want to be better, you know, if I'm going to get new contracts. I want to be able to read through these things or at least understand the language. And. And me wanting to be back in writing without what I realized is like, damn, the more I write, the more I need to read.
- [13:24]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah. Because more words, you know, that gotta.
- [13:26]
Big Cat
Go hand in hand. You know what I mean? Something that's been interesting I wanted to talk to you about is this idea of rushing. There's been an idea of people saying, like, it feels like we do everything in a rush. And I've like, active resistance to capitalism in general is just to slow down and take your time. So on the way here today, I didn't. I didn't cut in and out of lanes like I normally do. I just stayed in one lane, safe on the road. But, like, I actually, like, kind of tried to adhere to the speed limit a little bit. But, like, you ask him normally I'm like, like. And it's like I'm in control of that. I'm not in control of everybody else. But I was like, yeah, like, really? Like, honestly, what the fuck am I in a rush for?
- [14:11]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
And it's funny you said that, because I had a similar experience on my way here. Like, when I text on, oh, I'll make me five, ten after, and there was a calmness about it, and I was like, I'm riding, like, I'm chilling. And it's like, even when I got here, like, we gonna slow motion it. And so I think you're right. It is an act of resistance. It is an act of rebellion. It is an act of revolution to say, I'm not going with your time. Because when you understand the oppressive nature of time and how that impacts us, that's what you have to do. And so understanding that what time is, how it controls and dictates things and, you know, so really taking that power back, I think is important and being able to slow down. And it's the same with our productivity and getting stuff out. And I gotta produce, produce, produce, and we can't even wait for music to drop. I'm like, I didn't even listen to the album yet, and now you on the next one. And I'm like, how do I even sit and just take the time? Like, it takes a lot of time to sit and digest something and listen to it and process it. I'm listening to that. It's 120, 500 times to really understand, okay, what's being said here. And we don't really have that space to do that. I'm like, bring back lines Time wire. Because we used to be in the crazy.
- [15:10]
Big Cat
On me, on me. I'm, I'm, I'm. Yo, piracy is lit.
- [15:16]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I.
- [15:17]
Big Cat
With some piracy. Like, yeah, bro, let's backdoor your content real quick from the major corporation and then I'll buy. I just, I was with T and I was like, man, I ain't gonna hold you, bro. I bootlegged your first.
- [15:30]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [15:32]
Big Cat
I was like, girls Urban legend, bro. I got that with Eminem. Sh. They was doing a little 2 for 10. I had to get it. I had to get it. Like he said, hey, long as you listen to it.
- [15:41]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [15:41]
Big Cat
He's like, you bought the next. I was like, for sure. I definitely bought King.
- [15:45]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
There's a sacredness to that too in terms of like buying exchange of knowledge, art and divinity. Really?
- [15:51]
Big Cat
Yeah. Well, I think this gets me to the idea of like colored people time where it's like professionalism is a thing of being adhering to other people's time or just adhering to an agreed upon time. Right? But like for me it's like 4:15 is still 4:00'.
- [16:12]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Clock. Yeah. No, when we have a circadian, whatever you want to call it, right? We have a way of interacting with nature, so we always have to go back to nature. Like, ducks don't wear watches. Like, and they know what time it is. They know when to go eat, they know when to go do what they got to do, like hunting, gather all the things. It's. It's a natural rhythm of life. And so understanding how do you get in tune with that and how time has disrupted that. And the only reason we really need it is like you. For professionalism to be here at this time, to do this at this time, to have a time to meet. And it's like, well, we need that. We need that. And it's like no other species on this planet has that. They don't need it.
- [16:46]
Big Cat
They're. They're literally cutting up. They're carving out our time. Like, like, they're like rationing out to us, right? Because if you think about the commute, if you think about the. So the, the idea of a utopia. I've seen a video today. This dude broke this down. Like, the idea of having a peaceful moment doesn't mean peace is sustaining, right? Like, if you wash the dishes, it doesn't mean that there will never be dishes to wash again. It's like a thing that we just accept. Like this is always going to be a laundry, dishes, grocery shopping. There's always, you always have to replenish Right. So when we think about, like, an idea of, like, a utopia, what could work, we also understand that it has flaws. We're humans. Like, even the judicial system, if you take away the racism of it all, just 12 people deciding. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? This motherfucker's guilty. You don't know, like, that could be a thing of, like, I'm trying to get back to work. I ain't making no money. I don't want to be here. So, yeah, let's just make it. Let's just say they guilty or not guilty, whatever the case may be. Because I was watching, like, juror number two, and that's, like, a big part of it. So. But I think for me, more than anything, what you're talking about nature. You were in the black policy lab when I was there, and I saw. I tried to reiterate some of those points because I know a lot of people didn't catch it. But this idea of us being back in tune with nature is just a thing of, like, I want people to understand, like, what season they're in. So, like, the season you want to be in may not be reflective of how you live. And you could be in a deep winter, but you want it to be spring, which is going to intensify the winter. And it's like, the truth of the season is, like, it's temporary. So, like, as you're coming out of one, you're going into another, and it's the acceptance of that, but it's also, like, understanding that it's a rhythm.
- [18:36]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [18:37]
Big Cat
And like, all this history has a rhythm to it. We seeing that now. You know what I mean? We're. We're coming up on a hundred years post Nazi Germany, post Jim Crow, these things like that one, not 100, on the Jim Crow side. I'm saying still get a little Jim Crowish outside, you know what I'm saying? A little Jim Crowish at all times, but. You know what I'm saying? But I'm just saying, like, the rhythm of it all is, like, the nature of oppression. Right. And I want to, like, get your take on it, because I know you were there and you were present, and I appreciate that encouragement, too. But how do you feel about that as far as, like, people not, one, being able to identify the characteristics of a season, but then two, like, fully coming into acceptance of the season that they're in?
- [19:23]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, I think it's incredibly important. I think it's necessary. I think it is in alignment with what we understand of Knowledge of self. And so even if you refer to the Bible, my house has many mansions, it goes back to the zodiac. And understanding these energies and how you're in accordance with universal law, essentially. And that's how even oppression gets, how they're getting away with a lot of these things because you have to abide by that which is. And so understanding who and what you are and where you are and what your timing is, and like you said, being radically acceptive of that, you really have to understand you can't force it it, you can't force it. Like, you have to be where you're at and you have to know that. And that pull we feel is usually your future self trying to drag you to where you at. Or it's that that's what you feel. And so understanding that and where you are with that is important. And sometimes it is frustrating because you feel like I should be doing more, I should be this, I should be that, or did it out. But it's like this is the process. And so trusting the process, understanding and embracing the journey is the difficult part. I think of reality for a lot of people and for myself. And so I think understanding those balances is very important. Understanding who and what you are, the energies that you manifest in your life by the thoughts that you think, by the words that you speak, by the actions that you behave in, I think is very important. And you have to understand what that means for you and your decisions and your choices. And so are my choices yielding me the, the, the, the responses, the results that I, that I seek. And if it's not, then you have to understand, okay, where am I at? And so what must, what goes up must come down, you know, and so just really understand that that's the reality of it all and that's the nature of duality.
- [20:52]
Big Cat
Why do you think it's so hard for us to like, accept simple truths though? Because like, yes, like, what goes up must come down. This is something we know, but it's almost like an act of resistance when the thing that was one starts to come down.
- [21:06]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
We want to escape suffering, we don't want to feel it, but that is what it is. So we think that pain and anguish and the negativity of the world is bad. And so that's the whole good and evil thing. But you have to understand those are the same things, like there's no separation. And so when you start to understand that, then you can walk in that. And so then you get excited when you in a fire because you know what the fuck that means? You know where you're. So that's alchemy. And that's. That's where you're made. And so you get excited. Yeah, I just got a big loss, but I know that means a big win coming. And so when you understand that, you know that.
- [21:40]
Big Cat
Hell, yeah. Yeah. I think of. I reflect on some times where I'm like, I used to be on some. Like, God, bruh, if you don't fuck with me, just tell me, bro. Like. Like, stop with the signs, bro. Just come straight up and be like, man, I don't fuck with you. Like, going to hell, bro. Like, do something for me so I can just accept. Because why do this keep happening to me? But I think for when I reflect on it, it's like I was always actively resisting whatever was happening. And it's like I. The most peaceful times in my life where I was on some. It is what it is. Where it was like, oh, we behind on the bill, whatever. You know what I'm saying? Like, it ain't nothing I can. Like that accepting the things you can change.
- [22:25]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
It's a balance of knowing, like, am I just up and putting myself in really avoidable situations.
- [22:31]
Big Cat
It really does feel that way.
- [22:32]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Like, is there something that's. I was just thinking about this this morning, and it's so crazy that you brought this up because it really is a matter of, like, okay, is there something that I'm doing? Or is this just what it is? And so, like, that past, present and future self, is this just a part of the story? And so even when it feels like, yo, I should be doing something different, but there's something literally keeping you from being able to do that. And we have to have maybe an understanding of it's already written. And if it's already written, then what does that mean? Can you change what is already done? I don't know. But I really do think it is a. You have to be accountable. So you do have to have those moments of like, okay, everything around me is really kind of going to hell. It's going to shit. What is my role here? How have I contributed to this? And if you really feel like you're doing your best, honestly feel like you're doing your best, then you're going to be okay with it. But if you know that you're not doing your best, that's when anxiety comes. I'm scared about this test because you ain't really study like that, so you don't really know your shit. So really understanding what that looks like, and how you have to have accountability in your journey. Although there's a lot of things that we can't account for, but preparation, you know, and that's that whole preparation meets opportunity and what that looks like. And so I think it's just radical accountability and knowing if you really are doing all that you can do and doing your best in that moment.
- [23:43]
Big Cat
Yeah, hell yeah. My biggest struggle sometimes is like finding the harmony and things, right? Like. Like how things look ain't how I feel. So, like, what action do I take in this moment, right? Like even what you saying about being accountable, if I can't pinpoint or like identify what I did to cause whatever this situation is, then it's like, okay, well this is outside of me, right? But then even if it is outside of you, it's still happening to you. It's like, well, shit, I need to do something about this. But if it's like, if there's a fire, I have nothing to put the fire out with. I can't use myself to put it out. Sometimes that just means maybe this thing just need to fucking burn. You know what I mean? Like, metaphorically, so to speak, right? But I think, I think for me, one of the biggest struggles that I was dealing with when I was young is just kind of like naturally how I approach things is just with this freedom. I'm just going to this situation. I don't know what the outcome gonna be, but I'm let it be what it is. Anytime I try to control, be over controlling the outcomes, it always kind of blow up in your face. And so I think one of the things that, what we talked about last time about religious psychosis and things like that, it took me a long time to be accepting of that experience, those experiences, because I don't want to seem crazy, so to speak. But then when we discussed it, like, just as raw and open as we are, it's something that's come up a lot in the comments and like in even just with people reaching out to me or shooting me emails. It's like you don't realize, like, how these things you go through are, are going to like, be paramount for people in the future, right? Like, I don't know what I'm going through at 21, 22. I don't know we're going to have a conversation about this one day, but I also don't know that's going to give somebody the freedom to express their. And that is one of the reoccurring themes of not only our last time sitting Together. But the comment section is people, like, really embracing that part of it and de. Stigmatizing it. And I know that that's one of the things that came back up. Like, how have you reflected on that since the last time we talked about it?
- [25:55]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, like I said, I was grateful. I'm grateful for how it was received, but also, like you said, for the bravery of other people talking about their story, sharing their stories. The amount of people who felt comfortable sharing their story, me or just in the comments in general, and actually the entry into your patreon, just, you know, kind of seeing how people have been responding to it, really prompted me to organize a spiritual awakening slash psychosis support group. And so we can meet every month and we can discuss, we could talk, we can normalize it. It's not therapy, it's not a clinical setting, but it is a space to get comfortable sharing your story, talking about your story, understanding how we remain whole, how we remain sane, and what that really looks like, you know, from a spiritual perspective and a physical perspective, because our spiritual and our physical health are, you know, they're very EAS equal, and you need them both. And so understanding what that looks like and how to create safe spaces to destigmatize it. And a lot of people, you know, were appreciative of that, you know, and having similar experiences. Like, there's no shame in it, you know, in releasing ourselves of the shame, because, you know, we didn't do anything wrong, you know, and. Or maybe we did. Right? But you. Like, this comes back to accountability. And so in my situation, I don't feel like I did anything wrong. It just was what it was. And so it's a matter of learning from that and like you said, how to help other people. Because I know I'm not the only person who has experienced that. So I think it really prompted me to think about what. What does this look like? Like, what do we really need? What is. Ways that we can maybe prevent this from happening. But also, sometimes that is the experience that you need, and I can't really stop that or interfere with that either, you know, and so I think just having a safe space for people to experience themselves, experience others, and be in community with people who get it, because like we said, not everybody gets it. You can't talk to this about everybody. So you want to talk about hallucinations and delusions and all types of stuff. And it's like, okay, you know, so having a dedicated space to do that, really important.
- [27:43]
Big Cat
Yeah, me too. I've been excited to see the additions that have come along with you being in there. I. I don't. I don't engage a lot on the Patreon and Discord outside of, like, just providing spaces. I'll tap in every now and then. But for me, the most important part is that, okay, here's a. Here's a group of people who have one thing in common. This is a great place to start.
- [28:07]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.
- [28:09]
Big Cat
And I think. But the themes that I. I discuss on the show overlap with all of these commonalities. Right. So I've seen people take these. And I mean, the amount of tabs that's in that discord where it's like people just having their own pockets, it's great because it's like, for me, I. I can resonate with any one of these places, but it may not be how I'm feeling today. I might not feel filmed today, but I might feel, feel, be feeling politics today. I might be feeling spirituality today. And then we have a vent room, and it's like, you know. Cause I always encourage people, like, don't come in here and trauma dump, because you don't. You know, that's not a way to start a country.
- [28:47]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
You know what I mean?
- [28:48]
Big Cat
It's like this. My experience with white people is that this is kind of how they break the ice. It's like, let me tell you the worst shit I got going on right now. My mother just got diagnosed with stage four cancer. It's like, dog. How about a first name?
- [29:01]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
You know what I'm saying?
- [29:03]
Big Cat
How about what you do for a living? How old are you? Don't start with your worst shit. You know what I mean? But I think it's like, I understand that people are seeking community, and I understand sometimes the way that we're trained to, like, seek community is like finding out what we have.
- [29:19]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Trauma bonding.
- [29:20]
Big Cat
Sometimes trauma bonding and like, suffering is a common thing. Like, we. We all can understand suffering.
- [29:25]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Right? And that's what it brings black folks together, talk about. It is our traumatic history, you know? But I do think we need a space to just lay it all down, to just say, here, this is what I'm dealing with. Because you can't do that anywhere else. You can't go to work and talk about it. Your family, usually, they're the reason for it, you know, so really understanding where you can go. I. So having those spaces, like you said, is important because we do need a space to just be, you know, and we don't really have that.
- [29:51]
Big Cat
What. What Are some in your studies and then also in, like, some of the revelations that you had through your studies. What is some of the, like, pushback that you get from people that you're closest to, if any, you know what I mean? Or what are some things that maybe. Because sometimes we'll get caught out there, whereas, like, we'll get in certain rabbit holes and it's hard to find your way out. And I always tell people, like, if you feel like you too deep in a rabbit hole, just stay in it. Yeah, you'll come out the other side. You know what I'm saying? But when you come out of it, don't go back in there.
- [30:21]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Well, baby, it's the tunnel. Like, I think about that all the time in terms of, like, analogy. It's like you're walking through a dark tunnel, you don't see the light. And either you're brave enough to continue walking and knowing that there is light at the end, or you get scared and you. You run out, you know, and so you're. But you're right back where you came from, you know, so really understanding what it means to move through it and walk through it and how to see in the dark. So in dark something, we talk a lot about enlightenment and the process and the journey to enlightenment. But my studies really caused me to tap into endarkenment and to, like I said last time, not be afraid of the dark and understanding that that's truly where the light resides. And so I think that that's a big part of it. And so a big thing can be, you know, just the heaviness of the topics. I think people sometimes are concerned, just like, you know, Taylor, this is a big undertaking in a lot of different ways, but also trying to communicate the practicality of it, you know. Cause like you said, people gotta pay bills, they gotta eat. They ain't worried about. About space and stars and your soul, you know, I'm trying to figure out what's happening right now. And so me trying my best to communicate why that stuff is so important to your physical reality is where I'm at in that journey. And I think that's something that the people in my life who care about me are constantly encouraging me to do. Because if you're too far gone for a lot of people, then it becomes, you know, irrelevant to them. And so trying to find the relevancy for folks and just keep it lay, you know, just keep it real. I was listening to Erykah Badu. She said, what good are your words if nobody understands You. And so really understanding what that looks like, especially as an academic, especially as a scholar. And so the approach I took with my dissertation was very intentional in that way, and more so just because it's who I am. And once I found out I can do a study on myself, I said, oh, that's exactly what I'm doing. Because that's what I was doing anyway. I wanted to understand the process of miseducation. I wanted to understand the process of indoctrination, because that's what I went through. I went through being told lies in The K through 12 system, in private school, in public school. I went to go to PWIs. And I didn't get the education that I got at an hbcu. And even some people don't even have the type of education I had at an hbcu. They're being taught by non black professors. And so understanding what that looks like and how to take education back into our own hands was important because I really wanted to understand what happens when you're socialized in a Eurocentric worldview. Because I knew what it did for me. I know how confused I was. I know how lost I was. I know how much stuff did not make sense. And so a big part of it for me is demystifying the process, demystifying science, but understanding how deeply connected science is to art, how deeply connected science is to spirituality. And so even growing up in the church and private Christian settings, it's like they try so hard to keep science and spirituality separate or science and religion separate, but when you read the books, it's all science. And so really understanding what that looks like and why it was done that way. So my work was just a natural progression into who I am. And that's why I did an autoethnography, a study of self, because that is what it was about for me, knowledge of self. And I also used intuitive inquiry as one of my methods. So the methods of my dissertation was a black girl, autoethnography and intuitive inquiry. And I added intuitive inquiry because I was like, I have to account for the spiritual nature of what I'm doing. This was not. It was intentional in terms of, like, it's important to me and this is a spiritual work. But it wasn't intentional in terms of, like, I sat and I wrote this down, you know, and I said, I'm going to do this. I never said, I'm gonna go get a PhD. I want to be a doctor when I'm older. I never said none of that. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't know who, who I wanted to be, but I knew I wanted to help people. And so my life just gradually allowed me to be in the space that I'm in. And I'm watching it unfold, sort of like everybody else, you know, But I'm in control. Understanding, though, that our control isn't letting go. And like you said earlier, the harder you try to hold on to something, it slips away, you know. And so understanding what that is, because you are communicating to the universe. Fear. You are communicating to the universe. I don't have this, and I'm scared that I don't have this. And so, so that's what you're demonstrating. But if you know that, you know that, you know, there's a calmness about that. And so being able to tap into that, I think was really important. And just to decolonize research, decolonize the mind. What it means to really free your mind. What it really means to break free from the Matrix. Because oftentimes the moment you talk about the Matrix, it's like, oh, you woo, woo, woo, you into this, you into that. But not like this is reality and this is what we're dealing with. And so really giving people eyes to see, you know, you know, reality in a different way, but also for them to understand how they see it for their own selves.
- [34:43]
Big Cat
Yeah, for sure. Let's talk more about your dissertation because are you in the process of publishing it? Yeah.
- [34:50]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yes, yes, yes.
- [34:51]
Big Cat
Let's give people like, just give people a little tidbit about like, you know, like a little peek behind the.
- [34:56]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah. So it's titled the Miseducation of Taylor Cummings. And it was an autoethnographic analysis of belonging in the United States education system from kindergarten to 12th grade. And so really understanding the issue. Right. So I'm an educational psychologist. One of the leading motivation theories in educational psychology is called self determination theory. And I was like, wow, self determination, that's a big word in the black liberation movement. That's a big word in human rights. And so I started to really dig into self determination and understanding. Okay, well, what does it mean for black folks to be self determined in a sense, system that is literally counterintuitive to their self. And so what does it mean to be self motivated, to be able to, you know, create and be self governing in these ways? And so understanding that that's not necessarily a reality for us right now. And so I was really digging into this and the theory itself says that we need A sense of autonomy, we need a sense of competence and we need a sense of belonging. And the other ones I still have critiques for, but the one I landed on just for the purpose of the scope of the study was really interrogating what it means to have a sense of belonging. And so in educational psychology they define belong, having psychological membership to an institution of some sort. And I was like, well, what does it mean for us to have a psychological membership to these oppressive institutions? And so that's where we get into what it means to like be successful. Navigating professional or corporate or even just academic settings where you have to really ascribe to the values of white supremacy or white narcissism, as folks are saying online. But really understanding you have to subscribe to these values in order to be successful. And so the biggest rejects, right, of our society, the folks who end up locked up, the folks who end up on a street, streets they're rejecting, they're actively rejecting this. So they do not belong, right. And so I was really starting to understand this idea of belonging and external validation and how we have been socialized and programmed that when everyone's clapping, you're good. You know, when the claps stop, you're no longer really wanted anymore and what that does to your self esteem, what that does to your identity. And so just understanding that through the lens of my own life, I did an unearthing, a deep excavation of my educational history. My mother, she kept all of my records, mind you. I started in what, one year old class at La Petite Academy. So I've been, you know, indoctrinated for forever.
- [37:14]
Big Cat
Shout out to La Petite. Yeah, so from all my kids went to La Petite.
- [37:18]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Oh, that's so cool. That's so funny. Yeah. So from then on my mom had all my records, you know, my report cards, awards I won. So I have like a kindergarten graduation stuff with like the little Jesus with the lamb. And so really just understanding, you know, what this journey was and how you're getting A's. And if you get an A, that means you're doing good. You know, if you don't, then what did that does what that does to your self esteem and what that does to the way that you understand your, your progress and your success and so, and also just understanding my relationship with the sports thing. You know, I lost my scholarship, I got injured, I had a undiagnosed injury and no one believed I was hurt. No one could really figure out what was wrong with me and how easily I felt I was discarded Once I was no longer useful, you know, so understanding this role of belonging and how it manifests and how we really have to release the control of external validation. Because what happens when nobody's clapping for you? What happens when nobody care, nobody sees you, no one's there to support you? What does it mean to belong to myself? You know, and so really understanding that is what sort of birthed this process. And so really analyzing how I came to that was really, really important to me. And so I'd say I'm grateful for the journey. I think it's going to be helpful in terms of understanding what to do when you feel alone, what to do when you feel like not even God is answering or there for you. And that was really big for me. And so, yeah, it had all about. It had everything to do with really dissecting the relationship that we have as black Americans to the institution and the establishment. And if we're trying to get black students to belong. Belong. Belong to what? Literally belong to what? What are we educating them towards? What do we want them to be a part of? And just understanding what it means to be free, you know, and sort of reclaiming that and having belonging within our own selves. So that's the scope of it. Even just, you know, starting with like little Ruby Bridges. Was that really the best thing for that young girl?
- [39:10]
Big Cat
It can't be.
- [39:11]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
And I don't want to speak, you know, in terms of that, but just like a critical eye to our history, you know, and understanding what that looks like. So I problematize a lot of those things and just really like asking questions about what it really means to belong. And so I really landed on this idea of belonging to myself. And so that's a big lane that I'm sort of carving out in ed psych, which a lot of like my OGs are saying. Yeah, like this is very novel. This is pretty original in the way that you're talking about belonging. And so, yeah, I embargoed my dissertation for a few reasons. One, because of the nature of the content of my dad dissertation, but also because I didn't want the university to own my story like that, you know, so just.
- [39:52]
Big Cat
What do you mean?
- [39:53]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
So when you produce work within an institution, it's their IP in a lot of ways. Yeah. So there are things that you can.
- [40:00]
Big Cat
Do, man, they got that figured the out there.
- [40:05]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
There's like paperwork things that you can figure out, but I don't just to kind of protect the sanctity of the work. And also because it was still produced within the limitations of the, you know, so as much as it was innovative and I use the soundtrack of my life, I use hip hop hermeneutics, I did all these things. It still was within those limitations. So I didn't feel like fully me, you know, So I really wanted to take a step and just say, okay, I completed this assignment, I did the project, I did the task. I'm a doctor now. What does this really look like? To put it in the hands of my people. And so now taking the time to go through that and figure out what that looks like. So I have, you know, academic articles and publications I'm working on, but also things that are more, you know, gear geared towards who I'm talking to.
- [40:50]
Big Cat
Yeah, this is very interesting to me. First of all, shout out to you this, because this seems like such an extreme level of, like, work and determination to get this done. I understand. You know, before, you know, it's very easy to knock the education system, especially when you don't engage with it. It's very easy to say college is irrelevant and woo, woo, woo. But the skill, skill set that people are utilizing and also the days where you don't feel like doing it, the discipline that comes along with it to achieve these goals, I mean, it's something to really like. I mean, you deserve everything you got. You know what I mean? You deserve it completely. Even if these things are symbolic in the sense of whatever cap and gown comes with or whatever ribbons come with it. Talk about Saturn, you know, the show of it all. It's still very necessary because people need to be celebrated for that level of achievement. I don't think it's. I, you, I. It got me to thinking about the amount of stories that I've started and stopped. Right. I had this. I was going through this, like, really tough time. So I reflect on seasons a lot where I was going through this thing. I was writing this thing about the four seasons of emotion. And I was in a really down space. So I was like, yeah, I'm definitely in the midst of a winner. And the first chapter was called A Cold, Bitter Black Coffee. And it's because of like, I was dealing with shit, with how I felt about my dad, how I felt about my mom, how I felt about myself. Reflecting a lot on my upbringing. And I wrote until I just couldn't write anything else. And I was like, oof, Chapter one. And I was like, okay, now I gotta go back and edit this.
- [42:42]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [42:42]
Big Cat
And I was like that.
- [42:44]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
No, it's a lot, you know what I mean, I've been struggling with that honestly, on my own one, because writing one point in my life was my lifeline. Like, I was literally writing just to stay in not an anxious state. Like, I was literally writing to save my life. Like, it was the only thing that really grounded me. I was connected with myself because that's your stream of consciousness just flowing. And so I think because of that, writing was difficult for me. And then also, like, as much as it is a liberatory thing in terms of the power of the pen, I also started to understand how oppressive it could be because our history also has a lot to do with the oral tradition and feeling like one. I'm a natural talker, gapper, if you want to say it. But that's, that's a strength of mine, you know, and so understanding that I do have the gift of gab and understanding that we have been socialized and trained to feel like it's not important unless it's written down. And then also knowing that, that if they're burning our libraries down, so what the hell am I writing the book for?
- [43:42]
Big Cat
Yeah, burning them down, banning the books. And then also, you know, the stigma about talking too much.
- [43:49]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah. I mean, always in trouble for talking.
- [43:54]
Big Cat
Always in trouble for talking. Even with an A. It's talk too much. It talks excessively. But also it creates an anxiety around speaking because. Because I actually discussed this today on one of my collabs that I do with Every Nigga Deserves, where we talk about replaying moments to the point where it's like you get frozen in time or you can turn a great night into something that's completely self destructive when you start replaying every conversation you had. Did I talk too much? Did I say the right thing? Was that joke even funny? All of that?
- [44:32]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [44:33]
Big Cat
Where it's like, I can't buy mysteriousness. I can't. I couldn't even.
- [44:39]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I was like, I want to be one of those old wise ladies.
- [44:42]
Big Cat
I want to be one of those guys that just sit in the corner and absorb and doesn't have anything to say. And then, and this is no shade, the intelligent people. There are very intelligent people that are quiet. But what I noticed in some of these spaces is like, they didn't have anything to say because they didn't have anything to add or they. They're not even taking anything away. They're just over there in their own world. You know what I mean? So I'm just not one of those people like. And I like accepting that about myself without that I wouldn't be here. You know what I mean? I had to accept fully, like, what I was, who I was, how I interacted with the world. Also understanding this. This is the most consistent part of you.
- [45:23]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [45:24]
Big Cat
Is having something to say. And I have. My daughter is completely like this, like, struggle with speech. Parenting is tough because every. Every shortcoming your child has, you take it as a personal effect. Like, she can't. I didn't read to her enough. Did I not pay enough attention? Did I not do this? Did I not do that? And then I also, like, reflect on these things. You know, my oldest son has. Is on the autistic spectrum. And it wasn't very talkative growing up, but taught himself how to read. And it was so crazy. Like, one day he just was reading. I was like, the. You don't even talk like that. You know what I'm saying? You learn how to read. And then it's like, not even, like, not identifying word. Like, full sentence is reading. And then. But he's very reclusive. So like, even still to this day, he'll have these moments where he's very chatty, and he has moments where he's very withdrawn. And it's like, I just understand that's his balance. When my daughter started talking, she hasn't stopped. Do you understand what I'm saying? I know that that is a part of me. I know that my parents have went through a phase in their life where they're like, God damn, this boy ain't shut up since he started. And I still haven't shut up. And I like. It's such a beautiful thing to see it in your child because it's like, man, that's really. Damn. There's no denying that. You know what I mean? But then you get a little sad because it's like, man, the world's gonna.
- [46:55]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Try to shut that up.
- [46:56]
Big Cat
Take the weight and take the. Especially her being a black woman, they're gonna try to take that away from her. And so I always, like, am encouraging my kids to, like, reject the world. And this may not be the best form of parenting. I'm gonna keep it real. I don't. You know, I know my parents didn't know what they doing. I know I don't know what I'm doing. But I do take this approach with my kids where it's like, I know that you can get A's and B's, and these are the great. These are the good scores, right? C is average, whatever. So my thing is, like, with these topics in school that you don't like. If you could get a C, yeah, I could be happy.
- [47:31]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I saw a professor say that if you got a 50, you got 50%.
- [47:34]
Big Cat
Right. You see what I'm saying? So I do take this approach. I said, but the things I know you like, you better have a A, because if you're going to. If you're going to chalk it up to A average in the spaces you don't like the things you do. Like, I need to see that you actually like them. I don't need it to be this thing about, like, I'm interested, but I'm taking the same approach of things that I'm not interested in. Because you're not, like, really, like, multiplying all your strengths. Like, I need you to multiply on your strengths, your weaknesses. Those things will work themselves out. You know what I mean? But your strengths, I really need you to double down on those things. And so then I start taking the same approach with myself. So, like, I've committed to, like, one substack a month. Like, at least just one. I don't want to set the bar too high, but hearing what you. It's very inspiring to me because it's like, oh, all it takes is, like, to just stick with it, though. Like, I don't know. I've let people read these, like, books I would start.
- [48:34]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [48:35]
Big Cat
And they like, bro, this is amazing.
- [48:37]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Why haven't you done it?
- [48:38]
Big Cat
And it's like. But like, it's because. It's like, I. I have never gotten over the hump of being disinterested.
- [48:44]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [48:45]
Big Cat
Once I'm disinterested, I just leave it it. And it's like, this is a rhythm, though. Like, I have to start. If I do everything in motivation, if I do everything at peak inspiration, then, like, there's going to be very few things that get done. You know? Like, I'm not always extremely motivated to do the show. Sometimes I start later than I normally would because it's like, I got to kind of work my way up to it. But I think that I can see the evidence of sticking with something, and you can see that evidence as well.
- [49:14]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
And.
- [49:15]
Big Cat
And at the level that you've done it, I'm like, I really do feel very, like, grateful to be in community with you because it is a reflection of me in a way like, that I don't get to experience. Right. Like, I don't get to experience the things you do, but it's like, I kind of do.
- [49:32]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah. And I feel the same about you. Like, I do feel it's like a yin Yang type of thing. And I think what you're talking about is the discipline. And I think even for me, it's like the dissertation was a huge hump to get over. There was so many days I did not. I'm like, I signed up for this. And I'm like, what the heck? Who was. What was I thinking? Or I was just like, I want to cry, but I literally can't. I don't even have the time to cry. Like, I want to cry so bad right now, but if I cry right now, I'm wasting time and I need to submit this now. And so I think really understanding what that looks like, and now that that's done, a part of me needed to regulate my nervous system, which I still think I'm in the process of, but also just understanding that we are thirsty for knowledge and information, and my voice is powerful and it is important, and I do need to get this out. But also going through the emotional hurdles of what it means to prod, do something and to create something, I went through the system of indoctrination. It wasn't like, I'm talking about this, that it doesn't apply to me. I went through that and it affected my. My psyche. It affected the way I understand myself. It suppressed a lot of my creativity. So now it's like coming into myself in a new way, in a different level. And so now I think, like you said, sticking to one project, I have a trillion. I got ideas for days. It's like, oh, I'm gonna do a film. I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. But it's like, okay, what do I need to say? Start with. Start with this and get one thing done. Do one thing really, really well, Taylor, and just get it out. So that's really what I'm in the process of. So I keep saying, I'm working, I'm working, I'm working, and I am working, you know, And. But I don't. I don't want to feel like I'm rushing myself because like I said, this is an act. This is a labor of love.
- [51:06]
Big Cat
Absolutely.
- [51:07]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
This is truly a labor of love. And I think understanding what that means for our community is important. And. And I think everyone needs to, like you said, find a hobby. What do you really love? What do you have to contribute? And so I think this is a manifestation of that for me. And so I'm on the path of committing to finishing one project and getting one thing out there for the people to be able to digest. And I think that's just where I have to start. And then as things manifest themselves, we'll see what comes after.
- [51:33]
Big Cat
Absolutely. And you spent. And as you should start with this. You spent so much time cultivating it, and it. It got you the title, you know, so to speak. But then you have to undo those things. Right? Like, I'm not a student anymore. Now I'm a practice.
- [51:49]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yes.
- [51:50]
Big Cat
I mean, I'm in practice. And if I'm going to start anywhere, let me start with the thing I just did. You know what I mean? I think you. There was so much labor that goes into it, so much mental labor that goes into it, and emotional labor. And then you're reliving your experiences. If you write about yourself, I'm excited to see it in its final form, but also, like, I'm also very appreciative of the fact that you're taking your time. Like, I think we do this with all media now, is that we rush everything, which is why, you know, the literacy crisis is what it is, is because it is the. The longest, most laborious thing that you have to do. Writing a film well takes time. Writing a great novel takes next time. And the people that will tell you different are outliers. You know what I mean? Like somebody like a Stephen King that's just churning out books and they're all good, that everybody is not going to be Stephen King.
- [52:44]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
And I think you can be right. There is something very spiritual about your practice. And so there are some moments where I feel like mad scientists, like in the big stack of books, you know, just like, cranking out stuff. But then there are times where I feel like you said, like, this is a timely. Like, you need to take your time with it. And really allowing the. The emotional work to work itself out, I think is the biggest part of entrepreneurship. It's the biggest part of creativity. It's really the battle within yourself as you create.
- [53:15]
Big Cat
Yes. What I've learned is I. I am also a person with a million ideas. Also. I can envision all of them. Like, I know what it takes for them to look great. This is why I want to get in the film. Because the start of an idea to the end and all of the things that have to develop in the middle is very exciting to me. And I think that because I don't have anything established, that most people either don't believe it or don't invest into it. Right. But it's like I look at shit all the time. Like, I know exactly how I could have met that. Like, that could have been better. Because my taste is kind of concerned with reception. My. My taste is solely concerned with, like, what I know works well with people and what I know, like, people can't stand. But also, like, I don't control that perception. I don't control that I have that pattern recognition.
- [54:10]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [54:10]
Big Cat
I've always had this since I was a kid. But it's like, okay, how do I put that in action? Well, the podcast is a big part of that. It's like what I'm talking about. These things are like patterns that I'm recognizing and then all also, like, how do I consolidate this into something that people can really understand? So when I wanted to do this substate thing, I wanted the first thing. The first thing I ever wrote about on there was like, propaganda. Propaganda. I. I sent it.
- [54:35]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I think I said, yeah, it was fire.
- [54:37]
Big Cat
Yeah. And then somebody told me, like, the only thing you need to do is like, plug this into Grammarly.
- [54:41]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [54:42]
Big Cat
So some of the grammatical things can be taken care of. But it was like, other than that, great read. Right.
- [54:45]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I think. Think it's a disruption to the system.
- [54:47]
Big Cat
You know, I just write how I talk. You know what I mean? But I found the second thing is like, hold on, I have it here. I don't have to rush.
- [54:59]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
No, yeah, you're good. You're making me think of a lot of things. I'm like, I should have my notebook. I gotta write something down in here.
- [55:07]
Big Cat
I love that. I. I really do. Like. Like, one of the things that I enjoy more than anything is just like. Like, like kind of like when I'm by myself, just like envisioning my ideas. I can do that for literally.
- [55:19]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
But we live there sometimes.
- [55:21]
Big Cat
Yeah, I gotta get out of there. You know what I mean? That should have keep me up at night. But hold on. It's this, okay? The desperation for white validation to cultural appropriation pipeline. I don't know even what. I know what that means in the words, but the things that I've envisioned around it. I see. I see it so much that it's like, I know that a cookout invite is a desperation to be validated by these people, but the. What you're willing to trade in is crazy.
- [55:56]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [55:57]
Big Cat
You willn't like the. The. It's kind of a sell. You're selling your people out. You're selling out like sacred tradition. You're selling out things, you know that you. You have a. Like, think about this. Think about the idea of this there's going to be aunties and uncles at your cookout that don't like white people. And you're prepared to be embarrassed by them instead of. Not invite.
- [56:19]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah. Or introducing a potential threat.
- [56:22]
Big Cat
You dig what I'm saying? Like you like. Because there's a desperation. Right. So this will be out by the time I discuss this. So I want to get into this discussion, but of saving, protecting your oppressor. We've seen this with this young man who escorted Jeremy Lane to safety in Minneapolis. We saw this with the young woman, young black woman who protected this officer during the George Floyd protest with her literal body. And I want to think about what message is being. Being sent, what message you fear being sent and the message that is ultimately being received. The message that you fear is that these people are savages. And look, they just killed this man. And. And they're of course, will find ignorance and innocence and all these things. But that's not the message that they're going to receive. That's the message that they already have. The message that they already have is that you're a savage.
- [57:21]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [57:22]
Big Cat
Which is why they feel like they can come into your space and violate. This is what they project reject anyway. But the message they receive by you protecting them is that no matter what we do to them, they'll. They'll keep us safe. The message that they receive if you. If you allow these people to beat this officer to death, if they beat Jeremy Lane to death, the message that's received. These people are willing to kill their oppressor.
- [57:45]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [57:46]
Big Cat
That's the most important. That is important.
- [57:48]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
What just came, when you said it, what came to my mind immediately was kind of cop killers and understanding how that's weaponized against our people as a derogatory thing. But understanding what the establishment represents and understanding what it really means to be free and to be liberated. And we're in war. We're in war. And so you really have to understand that. And I think when we talk about the oppressor, it's not about individuals. I have my white professor was my advisor crazy. Like so, so grateful. You know what I'm saying? So understanding what this looks like and what this means and understanding how to tap into humanity is important because at the end of the day, it is about humanity. It is about humanity. So we have to really understand that and understanding this. This illusion of duality as well, while at the same time understanding what we're operating within and understanding what that requires of us to. To be free, if that's Truly what we want. But we. But these patterns we're recognizing don't seem to. We don't really want freedom.
- [58:47]
Big Cat
We're.
- [58:47]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
We're interested in negotiating our rights and negotiating our freedom. And that's not what that looks like in terms of.
- [58:53]
Big Cat
Because they're not negotiating exactly. They're enforcing exactly the. A death of Jeremy Lane doesn't represent a death of Jeremy Lane. The person, the individual. It's not the. I don't know this.
- [59:05]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, exactly.
- [59:06]
Big Cat
I don't know who the person his mom knows. I know what he represents. I know what his. I know what his is name language is, and I know what arm of the system he represents. And it's the arm of the system that's extremely oppressive through not only violence, but narrative. And you came dressed for war. The only people that you're supposed to ensure get to safety in war are the people that are fighting with you on your team. So by saving your opposition, you betray your. Your. Your battalion. You betray them. Um, and I think that there is a. There is a fear around accepting the reality of what it is. It doesn't. It. It's because we've been told that it could never happen. You know, there will never be war on US Soil. But it's like, nigga, the reason we're literally here is because of war on US Soil. We look at the Civil War and it's like. Yeah, we talk about it a lot, but like, it. It. It happened here, and it was happening here all day the time. And. And. And because now we've. With the government or what. Whatever the system of America has figured out is that if we stay on the offense, we don't have to be on the defense. And what. And then we have to figure out what offensive play we're playing. Well, okay, we're playing the game for resources. We export war and entertainment. That's like our big. You know, that's our thing. Oil. When it's oil, when we can find it. But, you know, we explored a lot of things, but the things that I can see optically are war and entertainment, and that's entertainment through our news. That's entertainment through propaganda around what war is. You know, like, our shit is like, yeah, there's these white dudes and they're like snipers and they're killing children and women and whoever the fuck is walking. But they're heroes.
- [60:59]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [60:59]
Big Cat
So let's paint the picture. Let's paint the picture of being bad. Like, let's feel bad for the nigga that's killing Everybody and Copaganda same way. There's a lot of propaganda that aids our systems. You know, like how many fucking police shows can you make? But you go on fucking Paramount, go on Peacock. Every goddamn show is a police show.
- [61:18]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
And that's the purpose of entertainment. It is to give people a sense of reality, to create their reality in. And it is like you said, a form of propaganda. And it's mind control. That's, that's what it is, it's mind control.
- [61:33]
Big Cat
I don't need Nevada 911 and Virginia 911 and Atlanta 900 and Miami. I don't need NCIS. Because what you're doing is like the same people. These are not the people you see on the street. But if you can apply that narrative to these people then you'll, it tries to breed an understanding. But like these niggas aren't behaving like that. These aren't niggas with like backstories that should be written about. These are mostly abusive people. And there are factual statistics that back the actions of these men. So when you're talking about an ICE agent, you also are talking about people that have been infiltrated by the proud boys, infiltrated by people who are proud to be neo Nazis. Policing is done the same exact way. The difference is, is like these people don't need background checks or training. They, they're, they're coming out out of shape, ill fitting all hatred.
- [62:26]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [62:27]
Big Cat
You know, and, and it's an opportunity to brutalize black and brown bodies. They're going to take it. And you got the person who they leak look up to suggesting like, you know, whether, whether things get passed or not, the proposition is the thing you should pay attention to. Proposing federal immunity to the people that have literally admitted that they, they have raped and, and, and committed sexual violence against women in these facilities. Literally on camera, killed a woman, shoot, shot by shooting her in the face and then numerous of occasions of killing innocent civilians when they're not large enforcement is like that is an active war on your citizens. And if you don't take on, you don't take it as like I'm engaged in a war. It's not a cold one. It's pretty hot.
- [63:16]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
No, it very. And it's like, but that's what them showing those types of things on the television does to you. It, it puts the fear in you to say that if I step up and I try to do something, that's what's going to happen to me. And that's how you keep people in the position that we're in. And so it's really about understanding our relationship to it and what we're actually willing to do, you know. And so I was think about like the Black Liberation army more recently and just really getting more into like war science and military science and just understanding what it is that we're really dealing with. Because it's not just a political game. Like this is real, you know, and our lives really depend on it. And so understanding that this is a war of the oppressed, global oppressed peoples, you know. But I think that black Americans, we have a very important role here in how we, how we sort of ignite the fire across the world. And not in a savior sort of complex, but really understanding that art. We, we have a unique positioning not only just like in our history and what has happened to us and what we've endured and what we've been able to progress through, but really understanding what we know and how we know that we really set the tone for culture everywhere. And so when we stop engaging with these systems, when we stop wanting to be a part of these systems, when we stop upholding and uplifting them, the whole world gonna follow suit. But we really have to get in tune with our own selves to organize our own selves and really understand what that looks like. And I think having that war based mindset and is necessary.
- [64:39]
Big Cat
Yeah, because we're always on the receiving end of it one way or the other. Whether it's a spiritual warfare, mental warfare, or just a warfare of propaganda that attacks all of our senses all the time. Like the idea of something as simple as sitting in traffic is just like to inconvenience you, to steal your time. When like if you think about, about what an engineer is and what they do and how they problem solve. There could have been effective measures to ensure that we have like safe and timely transit everywhere we go. But it's almost as if the purpose is to inconvenience. And then when you look at the, the idea of like structural racism, environmental racism, how they place these interstates, how they strategically place these buildings and things like that is done with the, with this idea in mind to not only incon convenience people, but like to ruin their peace.
- [65:37]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
And that's why for me, it's less about trying to change the system. Y' all have a right to do whatever y' all want to do for you. You and yours. Design your cities how you want to design them, have whatever laws you want to have for your people, put whatever you want to put in the Food for your people. And so that's why sovereignty and self governance is so important to me. Because you can do whatever you want to do for you, but you have a problem when now you're trying to impose that way of being and thinking and living on other people. And so really understanding how to self organize, think is important. And when we talk about these cooperative economic models and sustainability and all these things like we have to create for ourselves so we don't need to rely on them. We don't need your roads, we don't need your car, we don't need that and our technology over here doing this. And you're going to need that, you know. And so when it comes back down to resources too, and how we, how we think about creation and imagination because we're replicating what we already have here. But real creation is really taking something that we've never yet experienced, something that we may not even have the words for yet, and a word may not even even exist to be able to make sense of what it is that we're going to create, you know. And so that's also why I think hip hop was, was big for me and my use of the way that I employed it in my dissertation with hip hop hermeneutics, because I started to really understand, okay, greatness really comes from the mind and our imagination and the creativity. And we know rhyming also activates both sides of our brain. And so we have this myth of I'm left brain or I'm right brain, but it really is an integration of these processes that really help us to, to make something out of nothing. And I think hip hop is such an exemplary field in discipline that really shows us that. And so really understanding the power of the spoken word, the power of the tongue, and then seeing how hip hop has been used and weaponized against us to create the harm that we have in our society was really important for me to really dig in there and understand because it influences the culture so heavily and we have like a sort of a split in terms of consciousness and then in terms of other aspects of it that kind of really contribute to a lot of harm in our society and our behavior and what we think is cool and stuff like that. So really being able to break that down and understand how people have actualized success, whether it's financial success or whatever, or just liberating their own selves and the freedom of who they are, you know. And so using that was important in terms of the academy and motivation, you know. And so I'm A motivation researcher and so really understanding one how music, music sustained me. When I'm bumping, I listen to Punchinella Earth Gang. That got me through. That got me through. And for so many different reasons. I could go on and on about it, but it really was really helpful for me. And there were so many songs that were really helpful and pivotal on my own journey. But just thinking about the science of it and the science of what hip hop is and what hip hop has done and the metaphysical aspects of it, I think is really a key to our freedom and our liberation and how we choose to employ it in society.
- [68:30]
Big Cat
I agree. There's. There's. There's so many parts of me that have, like, been in spaces where there's just a song that I need to hear. I don't know what it is about it. I don't know. You know, I know that there probably obviously wasn't any intention for it affect me this way. Right? But that's the beauty of, like, art and creativity. You know, I was seeing something today where they were. Were talking about, like, how liberals think art is the end all be all right. And it's like, we have an understanding that it's like it's not. But art is very important and it'll change the individual. It might not change the world. Right. And so, like, what do you need to sustain you through certain spaces of periods of time? Like the last, like, four days is just me listening to Spiders by System of a Down. And it's like. To the point where it's like, I can't stop listening into that. Almost like where I'm with people and I'm apologizing like, sorry, I gotta play a song like. Because it's like, something about this right now. I don't know what it is. I don't know why it's striking a chord with me in a way where it's like I'm engaging in something different.
- [69:36]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
And that's what my work is. Was all about. I wanted to understand why certain things make us feel a certain way.
- [69:42]
Big Cat
Why do I.
- [69:43]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Why am I crying?
- [69:44]
Big Cat
It's addictive. Why?
- [69:45]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah. And so understanding what that is, psychologically, spiritually, emotionally, getting. Getting into energy and frequency and vibration and just understanding what resonance is. And I was like, I really. If I had the time for my dissertation, I would have hooked myself up to a machine while I'm listening. Because I had this whole playlist and I'm like, sitting here taking notes and it's like. Because while you're listening to something, you're also envisioning things. You have memories that are coming into your mind. You also have future things that you're thinking of. So there's so many things happening in that experience. And being able to document that experience scientifically I think was really important for me. There's a book about your brain on music and so really understanding what's happening there. But just understanding music is the muses.
- [70:27]
Big Cat
Yeah, it's the, it's, it's one of the more beautiful things that you get to experience in this world. Like and, and like, and truly experiencing it, which is wow. Like, I'm not a big fan of like reactionary. I'm not a big fan of rating music the first time. Like, how can you rate any, anything the first time you listen to it? Because there's entire albums that I've gone back and listened to and found new favorite songs on because of where I am. So like, music is also like a resonance of like being like where you are right now dictates. When I first heard Spiders, it didn't hit me that way. But for whatever reason when I played it this week, it's like, man, I can't stop listening to this shit. I don't know what it is and there's nothing to back it. There's nothing to nobody. And even if there are people studying and researching it, even the approach you want to take to it is still the unknown.
- [71:22]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yes.
- [71:22]
Big Cat
You know what I mean? And I, I've, in every stage of my life, I've found things that have, like, through music have gotten me out of it. I was literally, man, I, I, I don't know if I've discussed this publicly. I was working this job. I was like in the deep. I was in the worst parts of like a coke addiction where I'm trying to function and make it seem like my life is just normal and go to work every day. But like inside I'm like slowly hating myself because like, I'm basically manufacturing all the dopamine out of my system. So I'm left with these bad thoughts. I'm going to this job I hate. And one day I was like literally driving down the express expressway. It's like 4:30 in the morning and I'm hating everything about my life and, and including myself. And I was like, yo, this just that, just that simple motion. I think it's like maybe 15, 20 degrees of that on that steering wheel could change all this.
- [72:28]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [72:29]
Big Cat
And also like, even if I don't die, people will feel bad for me. Like these are Things I'm actively thinking, thinking. And I was like, but I hope I die. And I was like, then I started thinking about my kids and like, I started thinking about Deanna and like, all of these people that would be affected by my death. And like, without that consciousness of like, how much I am, how much I mean to other people, I would have went through with it. And I was like, I need something to get me out of this space. And bruh. The song AB Dancing Queen by abba. Yeah, I don't know what it is, but I think it was something about like, skating ring. Like that song used to come on a skating ring all the time when I was a kid. And it was like, I was like, I need a song. I need a song. And that's the one that came to mind. And I played that song and it was like, literally for 45 minutes of that drive in the car just got me through that. Like, it just got me to work. And after that I was fine. But like, that morning, for whatever reason, like, that thought was so severe and that song got me out of that. And that song is a catalyst for an entire series. Series that I wrote because it was, it was. It was it connected to like, despair in a way where I started thinking about other things. And I was like, oh, well, I could think about this in the sense of not somebody killing themselves, but using this song to calm them to enact revenge on others. And there's a whole thing. I've written a whole script about it, but it's like, I don't know why that song specifically did that for me. I don't. It saved my life, so to speak. Yeah, no, that's real in a real way. But I'm wondering about, like, how, how like, like, like you put in a notes like healing and addiction and like, those aspects of it. And like, what, you know, what's the framework around that? Like, there's a lot of things like that people discuss when it comes to addiction. It's like, well, you just have to find a replacement behavior. Replacement behavior. And we don't always know if there's going to be a positive or negative thing because you may replace that with the gym. Right. But then, like, people that go to the gym experience a lot of body dysmorphia.
- [74:38]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, I was going to say I had a very unhealthy relationship to the gym and to food and many different things. Like being an athlete. Well, one, I think you can be addicted, obviously, to many different things. I've even heard stories of people who drink too much water and that messed up their sodium levels and they ended up in the hospital. Right. So anything can be abused. And so I think one just. Thank you for sharing your story as well, because I do think it's very, very important for us to talk about, especially in the black community, especially substances like that, because it's always associated with white folks, you know, and so understanding how it really impacts us and what it looks like to come up out of that. But also as you discuss how it relates to, you know, suicidal thoughts and ideations and normalizing those things and our attachment to society and the world and our family, because those are sometimes the things that keep us here. But as it relates more specifically to healing and the healing. Healing process, for me, I think it has a lot to do with. You have to understand the root cause, right? And when you're substituting one thing for the other, you're not really addressing why you need that thing. And so it's going to take you time. You know, it's not an overnight thing all the time. Sometimes you do just wake up one day and you don't have a thirst for it, you don't have a need for it, you don't have a craving for that thing. But I really do think it's about that emotional stuff that you're dealing with. And. Okay, and so what is really causing me to go this way? Why am I using drugs or alcohol or why am I using food or, you know, even reading, you know, that can be a form of escapism. So understanding how we're escaping and why we're escaping and what we're doing to distract ourselves from what's really going on within, I think is really important. And so I talk a lot about radical honesty and acceptance and all the things that we've been discussing. But in terms of, I think the healing process, for me in particular, to too like it, I go back and forth all the time with, you know, marijuana, alcohol and things of that nature. But also, like I mentioned, like the gym and just staying there for a second, like I kind of completely removed myself from it. I was rejecting all things vanity. I was rejecting all things that made someone, you know, attracted to me. Right. It was almost like a form of rebellion and protection and so understanding what that was doing. So there was a lot of positive things, I think, that came from it, you know, existing in a larger body. You see how people treat you differently. And it's like, okay, like is reality. And even when I was younger, you know, I was always, you Know, conventionally attractive and things of that nature. And I was like, there's something really, really wrong about this. You know, that, like, even though I'm benefiting from it, like, this is. This is not right. This is not a story. This is not okay. You know? And so I always had that spirit about me. And so I think as I got older, really, like, leaning into that, you know, was really helpful for me, I think, you know, removing myself from vanity in terms of, like, no makeup, no. No nails, no. All the things that they tell you, you know, doing to enhance yourself or to be professional or to. To. To dress a certain way. You know, I. I got a kick out of showing up baggy, hoodie, hat on, and, you know, seeing how people treat you differently. But then I show up in a dress, I show up looking like this, and now it's. Oh, you know. So that was interesting to me.
- [77:42]
Big Cat
Clean up nice.
- [77:42]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, you clean up nice.
- [77:44]
Big Cat
Before you continue, I do want to say that on a parallel. I, at 24, I actively engaged in that. I got tired of, like, the perception of light skin, the colorism that comes along with it, even though it is a privilege. I got tired of getting haircuts all the time. I completely rejected vanity. I didn't get a haircut for a year. I let my hair grow out. I had got locks. I even rejected this idea of smoking weed without seeds in it. I just started getting really into the weeds of, this is not natural. This is. And, like, niggas would be coming over to my house, like, with z. Real, real packs. And I'm like, yeah, I'm smoking this mid. And they, like, on purpose. I'm like, yeah, it's natural. It got seeds. And it's like, even though. And I could look at. And it's like, bro, we don't have to match. I'mma smoke my weed. Y' all. Smoke y'. All. And, like, for me, it was, like, one of these things where it was like. Some days I would look in the mirror, like, bro, you look crazy. Yeah, you look crazy. And I would see people treat me crazy. And I would see people always, like, just staring at my hair and, like, staring at, like, what the is wrong with this dude? And it's like, can't see past what they see.
- [78:55]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yup.
- [78:56]
Big Cat
Even to engage with, like, what they know about me, like, engage with my mind, engage with humor, engage with. It's just like, for. For most people, it's like, he must be depressed. But, like, for me, it was, like, one of the happiest moments in my life because, like, I could let all that shit logo. Like, I don't give a fuck about this shit. I don't care about none of this shit y' all care about. It was a freedom for me, but it also was like, okay, I gotta come back though, too. Like, I can't.
- [79:21]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yes, you can't stay there forever.
- [79:22]
Big Cat
You can't because. Because you. You do start to teeter on, like feeding into you. Crazy.
- [79:29]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, yeah. No, that's really real. And I think that's the last couple years for me is coming back. You know, it's like, okay, like, you can't always leave the house with frizzy hair. You know, Sometimes you got to, you.
- [79:40]
Big Cat
Know, you don't want to look like the mad scientist all the time. Because there is a time and place. I think, I think esthetically it just is cool to me for a person. Not only. Not even. Not even the look. I think there is a. We're all. We will find a way to style everything. So even people who look disheveled, there's a style to. But the, the. There is a place where you do have to give a fuck if you want to be impactful. Because honestly, we are a very like vanity based being in general. We're very prejudiced about how things look. But I think for me, on a personal level, it was like by detaching from. From me, it. I'm not impressed by it anymore.
- [80:23]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, exactly. That's a big part of it. And you don't need that external validation. You can walk in your own sense of being and you're okay. Doesn't matter what I look like, what you think I have, what you think I don't have. This is who I am. And it also comes back to this idea of your temple, you know, And I think because we're socialized through vanity, through aesthetic, through this and through that, we don't understand that this is our vehicle. Like, this is our body. This keeps us alive, right? So then when you start to get into your whole, you know, food, food journey, your herbs, your oils, and that can even be weaponized against us in a lot of ways. But I think understanding, you know, what that really means for us, I think is really, really important. And that's sort of what you start to come back to once you sort of reject all those things. And it's like, okay, this is me. And I have to make sure that I'm operating in my best capacity and to my fullest potential. And I think that also goes hand in hand with Black liberation. Because if they come busting this bitch down right now, who could fight? Who could run? Who could. Are you able, like, are you able to actually do.
- [81:23]
Big Cat
We gotta do get active with them first. Yeah.
- [81:25]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
And so I think it's coming back into health, really coming and centering our health is really, really important.
- [81:30]
Big Cat
So it's extremely important because you need to be able to resist.
- [81:34]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [81:35]
Big Cat
And also like. Yeah, just being able to run.
- [81:37]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yes.
- [81:38]
Big Cat
You know, hit a full sprint. Yeah.
- [81:40]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Like I used to be out there.
- [81:42]
Big Cat
Man, if you think about this, I went skating with my kids like two weeks ago. I was like, God damn, this shit is burning the shit outta my legs. Like my quads is on fire. And it's like, man, I don't realize, like how easy this was as a kid when I was just like, like I wasn't thinking about, like I didn't feel tired in my body, I was sweating like a. But we're still going and I want to get back to that place of being exhausted and keep going, you know, like, like, like, like this is fun. And I think the older we get, the more our body just kind of break down and things, like, we get into more sedentary lifestyles. That is like what working is. It's various sedentary things. Right. And for me, you know, as much as I disain AI, there is like a couple of pages that use AI to educate. So they create characters out of vitamins. And like the one I was reading today is like about how to cook and when things are finished, like how to, how to keep nutrients and they make, make each thing a character. So I'm baking, cook me on medium heat. I need to render my fat. I need to, you know, or the thing about oils and like how they affect your body and what vitamins to pair together and which ones not to pair together. And they like create these things of characters. But it's like in a short spirit of time, like I'm learning so much and I'm like, oh, okay. Like there is no. This is the way to approach educating people in things that they don't understand. You have to make it a little cartoonish and simple for them, but appealing color wise. And because somebody talking in like a monotone or from the perspective of an expert doesn't work for everybody.
- [83:23]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [83:24]
Big Cat
So if we are in a literacy crisis, let's return to the childlike, simple way of teaching people things. And then as they get the basics, they'll expand and figure things out for themselves or figure out what literature works for Them. But I think when we're approached by someone who knows so much, it almost feels like a daunting task, like, where do I start? Because the reality is we understand that this person started 10 years ago, and I'm here today.
- [83:54]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [83:55]
Big Cat
With no knowledge. So it's like, well, I don't want to talk to this person that knows everything because, like, they're the reflection of that is I want to be this person, and I can't be them. I can't just download 10 years of knowledge.
- [84:08]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I think a big part of that, though, is to stop minimizing one's experiences, because everyone's brilliant at many different things. And the fact that you've arrived at this point means that you've learned something, you know something you know. And you probably know a whole hell of a lot. And you probably know a whole hell of a lot more than. About this thing, than that other person does. And so I think it is understanding what your knowledge base is and not. It's the same thing with anything. We're not comparing. This is not a competition. This is really about communal, you know, liberation at the end of the day. And so what do you have that I need? And what do I have that you need? And how can we really come together to create something special, I think is most important and understanding what that looks like for us.
- [84:49]
Big Cat
Yeah. And it's okay to arrive. Yeah, you know, it's okay to arrive in a new space, like. Like whatever space you're coming out of. I wouldn't. I would. I wouldn't say mastered, but you've accomplished so much. And. And like, that is, like, what we need to be doing is always, like, continuously being on a rhythm of learning more and learning new. Experts are experts for a reason. And, like, we should consult with experts in their areas of expertise, because who better? You know what I mean? But. But I think that trying to make an expert out of yourself in so many different places is like, I have a bad habit of doing this with books. Once I've read a book, like, once I start reading it, it's like, for me, I can already kind of see where it's going.
- [85:36]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
He's like, I know what this is about. Yeah, yeah, I get it. The introduction does tell you everything. Like, it does set you up for the book. So.
- [85:42]
Big Cat
And I always read the introduction. It's like, whatever, because I want to get the conclusion.
- [85:46]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
It's kind of like reading a. An. An article, like an academic article. It's like, you read your introduction, you read your Conclusion discussion. You're reading the methods like you're really trying to get an idea of what this is about, you know? And so I think there's a. There's a strategy in skimming. There's nothing wrong with skimming.
- [86:02]
Big Cat
Yeah. Because, like, atomic habits. Once I noticed that they started reiterating the same idea in a different way, I was like, oh, I get this. All right, cool. Yeah, we move on. You know what I'm saying? And then if I need to reference. I know.
- [86:13]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
And some things do require study, you know, Some things do require. Let me sit down. But you'll know for yourself what you. What you're curious about, what is engaging to you, you know, or maybe you're in the process of writing your own book. You know, I feel like I'm reading a little less now because I'm writing a little more now, or I'm creating a little more because it's not all written stuff that I'm working on currently, but it's almost like, I guess, like rappers or they're not really listening to nobody's work while they do it.
- [86:41]
Big Cat
It's one of those things because you don't want to. Inspiration. Yeah. Yeah. Like, music has been very hard for me lately to get into. Like, I've been kind of. I do get into these spaces and I. Like, this is a thing. Like, I've. I've. I've observed it, but I've not tried to figure it out. Like, why do I get in these spaces where I only want to listen to the same things over and over, you know, like, it's just one of them.
- [87:06]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I'll say the tis of a little bit, but it's also, you know, it's also sustaining. It's giving energy in some way.
- [87:11]
Big Cat
Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? And I think for me, it's also like, this is just what I like right now.
- [87:17]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [87:18]
Big Cat
And you know what I mean? And like, there's a. There's an excitement about discovering something new, but there's a. Also an excitement about returning to something old. You know what I mean? For the nostalgia, but also for like, the child. You know what I mean? Like, I think nurturing that inner child is already always important. And. And I think when you're drawn to nostalgia, it's like, well, maybe that inner child is like. Is need something right now. You know what I mean? So for me, one of the more interesting things that we discussed before we came, I wanted to get your take on this is about, like, how patriarchy will co Op divinity, right? So we talk about the story of Eve, we talk about Pandora's box. It's like these great gods will gift these women with these things, all of this, like, this wealth of things. As long as you don't do this one thing, like, this is off limits. This apple is off limits. I'm gonna give you this box. It has all these amazing things in it. Don't open it. And then it's like, now everything that's wrong with the world is to blame for you. Like, you're the blame. Like, women are to blame. Like, oh, she should have never ate the apple. And then niggas are co opting that as a way to not only punish women, but to exclude them out of advancement, right? Like, well, this is your consequence for biting the apples. Like, nigga, what are you talking about?
- [88:46]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
You know what I mean? One, the patriarchy does a great disservice to men themselves. And I think once we start to understand that, that will start to more men will be motivated to deconstruct alongside women. But I think also it has to do. And I think the ankh is a great symbol of that. In terms of what we're talking about. They often refer to the ankh as the closing of the womb. So this is what predates our Christian cross. And as you know, the Christian cross is straight up and down and our ankh has a hole. And so really understanding that that's the feminine and the masculine coming together. And so by closing them womb and leaning into the patriarchy, this is now what we have. And I think obviously stories like Adam and Eve lean into that as well by depicting that Adam was the first human being. And then from the rib we have Eve. But the word Eve literally means before. And so understanding what that means, but then also understanding that the atom a t o m has ribs and understanding that story. And so this is a scientific breakdown of what it is that we're discussing. And so because we don't understand what these symbolic allegories are discussing, we take it at face value and we run with it, you know, and so even there's manly P Hall actually has a lecture on Pandora's box. And for my esoteric occult type folks, you know where I'm going with this potentially. But he even interprets it a lot of ways as that Pandora's husband is the one who opened the box. You know, Pandora's husband had the key and so maybe Pandora stole the key or whatever. There's so many different interpretations of it. But really understanding, like you Said it was created and given, and then you're told not to do. But why was it created in the first place? You know? And so I think really understanding that, but then also understanding, okay, what does it mean to open Pandora's box? What does it mean to eat from the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? You know? But then also we forget about that other tree over there, the tree of life, you know? And so I think there's a lot to unpack there in terms of, you know, what divinity is and how man literally is woman. You're just testosterone that's secreted, and that's what changed you into what we call male.
- [90:56]
Big Cat
And you change in the womb.
- [90:57]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yes. You are all men.
- [91:00]
Big Cat
Started as a woman. Yeah. And, you know, even for me, it reminds me of this idea of Tony. Toni Morrison's, like, about the idea of racism just being exhausting and a waste of time. Right. Like, it wastes everybody's time. So, like, even. Even racism harms white people or anybody who chooses to engage in that system. Any system of oppression that you engage in also hurts the oppressor. Right.
- [91:25]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
The patriarchy puts unfair expectations, obligations, responsibility on men.
- [91:29]
Big Cat
Yeah. And so as I've been. I've just been interested into how these systems of oppression, like, to kind of panhandle with God, like, or.
- [91:44]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Or.
- [91:44]
Big Cat
Or tag team with God, like, yo, this is God's.
- [91:47]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
This is.
- [91:48]
Big Cat
God got everything to do.
- [91:49]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
This is manifest destiny. That was all that.
- [91:51]
Big Cat
You know, I'm just doing what I'm told to do. You know what I mean? And it's like. Well, that's because. It's like, why would you be the one to benefit from this? Yeah, you're harming people. Why would you. Why, like, why do. Why am I supposed to believe that you're here to set the record straight, as if, like, this. God needs you to do that on its back. Have. You know, and so as I've been, like, thinking about, like, how things compound with people, it's like, most people don't understand, like, what systems of oppression they're fighting. Right. Like, I don't understand. Like, I tell people all the time, like, I'm undoing a lot of things as well. So in practice, I've been molded to be misogynist. You know what I mean? Like, that. That's like. That's my rearing is like, everything I see. I'm.
- [92:37]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I'm.
- [92:37]
Big Cat
I'm meant to be this, right? So, like, an active deconstruction of that means I'm gonna have some leftovers. You know what I mean? And I'm engaged and I have to be mindful of when I engage in that shit too.
- [92:48]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
As a woman too, I've realized I have internalized misogyny for sure. And especially if you engage with hip hop, it's in you, you know, and so really understanding what that looks like. And so there's hip hop feminism that attempts to get at this in terms of academia and different literature. So there's a lot of great scholars who talk about unpacking, but me personally, I've been really leaning more into like Africana womanism as a framework. And maybe there is a hip hop womanism out there and if it's not, maybe I can write about it. But I think really understanding what that looks like and how, you know, feminism, we know the history with that and how that's been co opted against black folks and black women in particular. But then also, even when there is black feminism, I use that in my dissertation, black feminist thought. But it still wasn't really getting at what I wanted to get at, but it was foundational in terms of my perspective progression and just, you know, got to do what I got to do. And so then I ended up coming across Africana womanism and I, I really like it because it talks a lot about the family system and the mother, the father and the child. And that also goes back to the Holy Trinity and so how you got two men making a baby, you know, and so understanding what that. Yeah, so if you go back to the mother, the son and the child and what that really is and how we've removed the feminine aspect of divinity and say, you know, is as important for us to really critique and consider.
- [94:05]
Big Cat
Yeah, this is a thing of, you know, when you think about like women womanist and like feminists and I think about hip hop, I would think one of the artists that does this the best is Ken the Man. Ken the man is like a motivational speaker for women. I, I listen, I watch women listen to her and I'm like, I see how this activates y' all. And it's not really a, it's not a, it's not a proclamation of everybody else. It's like a reclamation of I'm choosing myself.
- [94:35]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yes.
- [94:36]
Big Cat
In all things. Right. Like, like it's not a. Nothing is good enough for me. It's like it, if it doesn't meet my standard, it doesn't meet my standard. And one thing that I've been noticing and I, you know, I, I purposely dive into things that like I don't necessarily always understand. And there's this one lady on Tick Tock that she does these lives with men, okay. Especially men who like to get on this body count subject. And she was like, if this is the thing that she says is like, if I don't want to be disrespected and demeaned, and that's like, one of my deal breakers. And the only way for you to approach this body count issue is to be disrespectful and demeaned. And we don't agree on these things. Then why can't we just go our separate ways? Like, why do you have to conform me to your way of thought or put me down or shame me? And it's like, I'm obviously not the woman you're looking for, and you're definitely not the man I'm looking for.
- [95:29]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [95:29]
Big Cat
Why can't we just go our separate ways? Why do you have to, like, beat me into submission? And it's like, it just got me to thinking about this in every aspect of life. It's like, yes, yes, this is an issue that men are faced with. And yes, this is a very great approach for this woman and for women alike to be like, yeah, but like, we just not aligned. It's cool. Yeah, we got the other way. It's like if. If we just started talking and with me with my three kids and. And you know, you have no kids, right? And it's like, well, I want to have kids. And I was like, I don't. Yeah, no, nobody has to conform. We can just be like, you know what? Okay, I guess that's the end of that.
- [96:06]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [96:07]
Big Cat
You know what I mean? And it. But for whatever reason, it's like we've been taught, like, in a relationship, somebody has to lose. Like, somebody has to conform. And we call it compromise, but it's really not a compromise. It's like, somebody has to come to.
- [96:19]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Give up something you.
- [96:22]
Big Cat
Like. Like, even was like, okay, I'll give you a kid. It's like, that's something I really don't want. Yeah. And. Or. Or you to say, okay, well, I guess I won't have kids. Like, but that's something you want, so.
- [96:32]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
You should have that.
- [96:32]
Big Cat
You should have that. And I think that we get into this space, it's like, I told. I told Big Cat this and I discussed it briefly, I think, on Patreon. It's like, we're so used to, like, abuse and oppression that it's just like, we don't know what to do with without it.
- [96:52]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Don't know. Yeah, yeah.
- [96:53]
Big Cat
We don't know what to do without it. It's like, almost like, unappealing. If it's not abusive or oppressive.
- [96:58]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
And we abuse ourselves because of it, we punish ourselves because of it, because we don't really know what it feels like to be free. And so when we have it, for me personally, I'm like, okay, I'm waiting for the next shoe to drop. I'm waiting for that next thing to happen. And I'm like, no, like, I deserve this. I deserve peace. I deserve happiness. I deserve this solitude and not feeling like I have to constantly, you know, be on edge and. And waiting for, you know, how to defend myself, you know, and so understanding how to create that environment for yourself is really, really important. But we do have a spirit of power and domination that we're fighting because we see that that's how things get done. That's how power is bestowed upon people by force. And really understanding, you know, the role of violence and destruction and things of that, I think we really have to do a lot of unpacking.
- [97:44]
Big Cat
Yeah. And it goes. Goes back. It goes back to something we talked about in the beginning of messaging and the fear of, if I kill my oppressor, what message does it send? And you fear the response, but they're never in fear of how you'll respond to them. And you're also in fear of the unknown. Like, I don't know what this does if we kill them. This guy.
- [98:11]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah. Yeah.
- [98:13]
Big Cat
So sometimes it's not even about what happens up there. Sometimes it's about what's going to happen down here. But if you look at a Luigi.
- [98:22]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I don't remember his last name, to be honest. Huh? I said I don't remember his last name to be.
- [98:27]
Big Cat
Yeah, I don't either. And I don't want to butcher it. I'm actually respectful. So. Yeah. Luigi.
- [98:32]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yes.
- [98:32]
Big Cat
You know what I mean? Healthcare Assassin. When you look at him and his situation and you see how much support he got galvanized around that, it's like this is the effect of somebody being strategic and fighting back. Rodney Hinton, the man, he actually. They actually just. The judge ruled in favor of him and his plea of insanity because she's like, I'm looking at the facts of the case. He obviously was not in his right mind. He wasn't making a rational decision. He was distraught. He just found out his son was murdered by the police.
- [99:07]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
But it's also.
- [99:08]
Big Cat
And we. And also, how rare is it for us to have a A judge that actually carries out a fair sentencing or a fair trial for a black person. So she actually consider him as a citizen of the United States and in this due process and ruled in his favor and not in favor of the state, which I'm sure this woman is going to come under some of scrutiny for that. But honestly, you know what she decided? What is the timeline? How do I shift the timeline if I don't do the expectation is that I'm going to not say he was insane, but she's shifting the timeline in favor of the people. And I think so many times we see the timeline shifted in favor of the oppressor.
- [99:49]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, yeah. And that's what's supposed to happen, you know, people who are elected into positions, they are of service to the public, you know, and so understanding what that looks like. But I also was going to mention that something around peace, you know, I'm not anti violence by any means. I think sometimes it is required and necessary and that is evidence in nature, you know. But I also believe that nature does not destroy itself, so that which is will be. And so I think understanding, though, what it looks like to really understand conflict resolution, and this goes from the national level to the international level. And just in our own individual lives, like, how do we really resolve conflict? And thinking about we are so apt to jumping to violence or to an argument or to do this or to that. And it's like, how do we really do this amicably? How do we do this, you know, in a way that really promotes peace? I think that's really, really important for us. And I think I am interested in having conversations about race relations. I know a lot of black folks aren't necessarily interested in sitting down with white folks and having in the conversation, but I do think there is necessary healing that needs to be done across race, across geographies, across all these things. If we know that these things are illusions, if we know that these things are not real, these are falsities. Right. So it's like, okay, how do we lean into that? Because I have had dope conversations with some white folks who really get it and they know the knowledge and they. And they do in it. And so really understanding what that can look like in terms of consciousness, because it's all skin folk and kinfolk. So it really is something within us that really speaks to who and what we are and what we have the capacity to do on the collective conscious level.
- [101:26]
Big Cat
Yeah, I discussed this as well about the Panthers, that the idea of the Black Panthers was that I'm going to organize with other organized people. So when you had the, I believe it was the Young Patriots, which was the, the white group and the Puerto Rican resistance group as well. These are also already organized people and they organized with their people. This is what the Panthers did. So it's like as to not infiltrate this space in a way where we're prioritizing the needs of your race over ours. When these are constructs we have to fight against. Right. And so, but we all can come together and coalesce around our own organized groups, which means that we're working on behalf of us being an oppressed class of people and not just on the race factor. Right. Like we're actively dealing with our race. Shit, when we come together now, we're dealing with our class.
- [102:22]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, well, everyone's oppressed, you know, and so understanding what that looks like and what that means, but everyone has their unique issues within their own communities and every community has a right to determine their own lives.
- [102:35]
Big Cat
Absolutely. And I think that when we stop looking at the fight as being left to right, you know, we, that that's the easy fight to have is amongst each other. We have to look an up and down battle. Because for me, you know, I've, I've, I had this guy Mike Morris in here and Mike Morris is Nigerian and he's doing some amazing things in Houston. But he's also trying to introduce the concept of like global economics to black Americans. And I can feel the rejection that people have about it because it's like they don't want to be on a Pan African movement. They the American. There's a patriotism that comes along with this thing too. And I'm not in rejection of like being proud of being black American. I just also understand there's a bigger picture here. You know, if we consolidate ourselves to this space, not only does it make us extremely vulnerable, but it limits the amount of trade that we can have. If we want to have black owned businesses and service black people, we're actually missing out on the opportunity of global marketing because there's a lot of black people in this world.
- [103:40]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yes, the world is majority, majority black people.
- [103:43]
Big Cat
So I think that understanding global blackness and understanding that what comes along with global blackness is global colonization. And so yeah, we're gonna have to navigate skin folk and kin folk in all aspects. But we also have to understand that like when we're having race relation talks with white people in good faith, that they have to also be in good faith as well. I don't want to Be debating my humanity with a racist. But I do want to talk to a person that understands that whiteness is a construct and how do we break down that construct, you know what I mean? And you know, I've, and these are off camera conversations I've had. Like for me this space is cultivated specifically for black people. I want black people to have a space, safe space to explore ideas, to explore intellect, to, to laugh, you know what I mean? And to talk about things, all things consider us. But I know that there is other aspects of things and barriers that need to be broken down because the role that things play is like honestly, what is the options, right? If you want to be extreme, the option is we have to get rid of every white person on earth, you know what I mean? But then we also have to get rid of every that subscribes to whiteness or assimilates to whiteness. Like it's not going to be a lot of us left. And maybe that's a great place to start, you know what I mean? But this is also not going to happen.
- [105:06]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, yeah.
- [105:07]
Big Cat
We have to be realistic, you know what I mean? So I think the thing for me is like in what way can you reject the systems that oppress you? Even if it's not radical enough to say you're not setting the world on fire because like the revolution won't be televised is the idea that it starts in the mind. How did what sparks that mind? Hopefully I've sparked minds, you know what I mean? Hopefully you're sparking minds. But how do we continue that chain reaction? And I think for, for one, it's like, you know, the idea of meeting violence with violence is not appealing to people because they fear the consequences, but it is a necessary measure.
- [105:48]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Like I said, we need military science. We need to understand war because that's what we're involved in. And I think it has a lot to do with understanding how best to navigate this. It's self preservation. That's what everyone is doing. It's preservation of self. And so this is about survival. And I think because we've been socialize in systems that are counterintuitive to our survival, it causes us to, to act in ways that may not be most helpful for us. And so we have to really like unpack that. And I think it's serious about the choices that we're making, how we're choosing to live and what we really want for our futures.
- [106:27]
Big Cat
Yeah, I can see like now I'm gonna be honest with you. I think that this is like Just a quarterly meetup.
- [106:33]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah, Yeah. I. I'm.
- [106:34]
Big Cat
Cause I could, like, I got. Yeah, I got another two hours. You know what I'm saying?
- [106:37]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I was gonna say I got something else that I got, but it's like every time we're talking, I really. I'm bringing a notebook next time.
- [106:43]
Big Cat
Yeah.
- [106:44]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I need to keep track. Like, it's living. It's like, I'm trying to listen. You know, you're not supposed to, like, think to respond. You're supposed to be listening. But then I'm like. But there's responses.
- [106:58]
Big Cat
That is the struggle that I. This is. I think that that's what most people don't. I think that they think in, like, oh, you need to let your guest speak. It's like, well, they're saying some pretty great things. I want to respond.
- [107:10]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
And we're actually working spirit. So I don't feel that here, because I do the same.
- [107:16]
Big Cat
Yeah.
- [107:16]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [107:17]
Big Cat
I think if most people are honest, they do too.
- [107:19]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yes.
- [107:20]
Big Cat
I think that what I do and what this is is a space of entertainment. And it doesn't feel entertaining to just watch two people talk.
- [107:27]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yes. It's edutainment.
- [107:30]
Big Cat
Edutainment.
- [107:31]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
You know what I mean?
- [107:32]
Big Cat
I don't fuck with that.
- [107:33]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
Yeah.
- [107:33]
Big Cat
I gotta have you. I don't know, man. I think we could do this, like, every quarter.
- [107:37]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
We'll figure it out.
- [107:38]
Big Cat
You could, like. Because I think every time I have a conversation with you, I leave. Like, fuck. Explore that idea a little bit more. It's like I'm getting as much as I feel like I'm. Or I'm giving as much as I'm receiving. This is great. I really fuck with this shit. Like, and the response is not in views. Right. It doesn't translate to viewership as much as it's. It translates to, like, how people engage with that last. That first interview we had, and I just can feel it in this one. It's like, wow. This is more of the same. Like, every time we get together, it's just stream of consciousness. You know what I mean? Yeah. Is there anything that you want to plug before you go? Yeah, go get some food and shit too.
- [108:22]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
For sure. The Lab. This is a space for black women, creatives, entrepreneurs, scholars. We meet every single week for coworkers. This is a space to just be you. Be yourself. We've had three conference proposals accepted for different research conferences to really talk about what it means to be a black woman, how we're navigating society, and what it looks like to build belonging and motivation and just resist and really creating our own sustainable communities and economic pathways for ourselves. So definitely check out the lab. You can follow me at the Self Love Doc go to the website the selflovedoc.com I also am Director of Research at Future Kings STEM Academy in Northern Virginia doing incredible work for young men. Really understanding cybersecurity, engineering, things of that nature, biotechnology, all types of stuff within the stem. So really tap in with that. We're looking for, you know, partners. Anyone who wants to get involved in terms of programming, research, things of that nature. Also have a great partner Mosaic Training Institute doing some EMDR training. So if you're a therapist who wants to get trained, definitely tap in with Mosaic trainings. You can also come through me so I can get you connected with them. There might be some other things but just stay tuned. The self love dog Dr. Taylor Cummings and it's been a pleasure.
- [109:35]
Big Cat
Damn. Thank you for coming man. And you can drop all this and yeah discord so well man, you know again, the great Dr. Taylor Cummins. I don't know, you know I always say this like episode 100 something but you know, we'll see you next time. Thank you. Thank you. I just want to rap. Yeah they say without the proper labor, faith don't stand a chance.
- [110:16]
Dr. Taylor Cummings
I put my faith in faith and stand on fertile land I planted seeds Adeline de turn into trees before rest in peace teas get printed to me.
- [110:26]
Big Cat
Big cat Yo yo. I feel like I'm coming down with a cold. Oh no. But I already booked me a doctor's appointment for tomorrow. How'd you do that? Zocdoc.com Ow. Raise your hand if you've been putting off a doctor's appointment, a dental cleaning or an annual checkup. Honestly, anything medical? Yeah, my hands up too. When something feels off, I'm usually doom scrolling symptoms, low key spiraling or just telling myself it's probably fine. But this year I'm doing things differently. I'm actually booking appointments with doctors I feel good about and Zocdoc has made that so much easier. Zocdoc is a free app and website that helps you find and book high quality in network doctors so you can find find someone you love. We're talking about booking in network appointments with more than 150,000 providers across all 50 states. Whether you're looking for dermatology, dentistry, primary care, eye care, or one of the 200 plus specialties offered on Zocdoc, you can easily search by specialty or symptom to build a care team that's right for you. Want to see your doctor in person? Great. Prefer a video visit? You can do that too. You can also view thousands of verified patient reviews so you get a real sense of who your doctor is. Maybe they hate small talk just like you or root for the same sports team. Either way you feel confident booking someone you'll love and when you're ready you can see real time availability and book instantly. No phone tag, no waiting around. Appointments made through Zocdoc happen fast, typically within 24 to 72 hours and sometimes you can even score same day appointments. I use Zocdoc and it's honestly the easiest way I found to book doctors without distress. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com grits to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's Z O c d o c.com grits zocdoc.com grits thanks Zocdoc for sponsoring this message.