Episode 123 - Ashley Allison

Summary

Grits and Eggs Podcast, Episode 123

Guest: Ashley Allison
Host: Deante’ Kyle
Date: February 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

This rich and wide-ranging episode features Deante’ Kyle in conversation with media executive and advocate Ashley Allison. The two dig into pop culture, independent Black media, gatekeeping, collaboration, the significance of owning intellectual property, and the transformative power of Black stories. The conversation moves fluidly through Ashley’s unconventional career arc—from teaching in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn to law school, to the Obama White House, to becoming a significant new owner in Black-led media. This episode is a masterclass in authenticity, vulnerability, and the importance of building platforms for community and collective growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Gatekeeping, Scarcity Mindset & Black Collaboration

• Scarcity and Community Mindset:
  • Ashley and Deante’ discuss how poverty and lack can create a sense of scarcity, leading people to guard opportunity rather than open doors for others.
  • “There's so many doors that are not locked, that are locked. There's so many doors we don't even know about. Why are we, like, pulling it close? To keep you out. ... We can grow together.” (A, 05:39)
• Collaboration over Competition:
  • Both emphasize the necessity of supporting emerging creatives without gatekeeping.
  • “I don't gain anything by holding people out.” (B, 06:22)

Ownership & The Evolution of Black Media

• Owning IP:
  • Ashley speaks on her experience acquiring The Root and her deliberate effort to create fair, non-exploitative deals for Black creatives.
  • “Owning your IP is a game changer… People used to take our crafts, take our exploit as we get 5 cents on the dollar but they would own the IP.” (A, 09:00)
• Independence vs. Mainstream:
  • Deante’ shares his determination to stay independent to control his voice and content.
  • “I like being able to say whatever I wanna say. And the only person that can lose is me.” (B, 08:10)

Pan-Africanism & the Power of Broader Collaboration

• Niche vs. Expansiveness:
  • Isolation limits potential—whether in media, culture, or activism.
  • “If you isolate yourself from people, not only are you easier to exploit, you're easier to attack, you're easier to divide, but you also like lack the strengths of collaboration.” (B, 12:00)
• Sports as Analogy:
  • Ashley compares limited recruiting in sports to the risks of insular thinking in media/politics: “If you narrow your talent pool, if you narrow your idea pool... you're going to lose.” (A, 13:06)

Ashley Allison’s Career Journey

• From Ohio State to Brooklyn Classrooms:
  • “If you can get a high school student to follow your instructions, you can get the president of the United States to follow your instructions.” (A, 16:36)
• Discovering True Passions:
  • Ashley realized her drive was not classroom teaching, but fixing systemic injustices she witnessed as an educator.
  • Her pivot to law school came from wanting to address systemic issues like police violence and housing displacement.

Organizing & Political Impact

• Obama Campaign:
  • Ashley’s organizing grew Black voter turnout in Ohio by 4% from 2008 to 2012, using creative, collaborative strategies learned as a teacher lacking resources (A, 20:10–20:39).
• Flow State and Purpose:
  • The feeling of finding true purpose—a “flow state”—infuses both their work and life.
  • “You can't bottle that up.” (B, 23:15)
  • “But that is. That piece of me is some. A piece that a lot of people don't know about. But I have a very strong spiritual and mental practice to stay clear, to get in the flow.” (A, 25:13)

The Case for Diverse Leadership in Government

• Beyond Lawyers:
  • Both challenge the dominance of lawyers in politics, calling for more teachers, doctors, STEM workers, and others to run for office and shape policy.
  • “I don't want a lawyer talking to me about nutrition.” (B, 34:10)
  • “You don't tell a story...with one character. ... People who are in STEM, people who are in the arts, people who are in law...should all explore opportunities to work in public service.” (A, 38:07)

Vulnerability, Representation, and Literacy

• Normalizing Struggle and Learning:
  • The hosts discuss the importance of admitting what you don't know and making growth visible—citing Kasanet’s public literacy journey as a positive example.
  • “It takes a certain amount of bravery to admit you don't know. Yeah, but also, this is the pathway to intelligence.” (B, 44:35)
• The Power of Representation:
  • Black boys seeing figures they relate to—like Kasanet—struggle and improve is key for future generations.

The Root 100 & Celebrating Black Excellence

• Impostor Syndrome & Validation:
  • Deante’ describes feeling nervous about being honored but ultimately recognizes his place in the room.
  • “You crushed it, though.” (A, 48:07)
  • “It is fine for you to feel nervous going into that room, but I also feel like: talk your shit.” (A, 49:35)
• Designing Black Joy in Hard Times:
  • The Root 100 event—a room full of Black achievement and joy—was intentionally crafted as a space for celebration, even as the world outside faces challenges.
  • “The world can be in shambles, and you can still have fun.” (A, 54:05)
  • “As the Great Depression is happening, so is the Harlem Renaissance.” (B, 54:33)

The Urgency & Future of Independent Black Media

• Why Tell Our Own Stories:
  • “Somebody is going to tell our story. Somebody's gonna tell it. So why not it be us?” (A, 60:47)
• Watering Hole Media’s Ethos:
  • The platform aims to be intergenerational, intersectional, and open to all perspectives, not a monolith.
  • “We always say Black people are not a monolith, but we often make people operate monolithically.” (A, 61:53)
• The Importance of Safe Spaces and Authentic Platforms:
  • Both stress the need for safe, supportive, non-exploitative forums for Black thinkers and creators.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Owning your IP is a game-changer.” (A, 09:00)
• “If you isolate yourself from people, not only are you easier to exploit, you're easier to attack, you're easier to divide...” (B, 12:00)
• “If you can get a high school student to follow your instructions, you can get the president of the United States to follow your instructions.” (A, 16:36)
• “It takes a certain amount of bravery to admit you don't know. ... This is the pathway to intelligence.” (B, 44:27–44:35)
• “The world can be in shambles, and you can still have fun.” (A, 54:05)
• “As the Great Depression is happening, so is the Harlem Renaissance.” (B, 54:33)
• “Somebody is going to tell our story. Somebody's gonna tell it. So why not it be us?” (A, 60:47)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Scarcity Mindset & Black Gatekeeping: 03:39–06:46
• On Ownership & IP: 08:48–10:16
• Pan-Africanism & Sports Analogy: 11:24–14:18
• Ashley’s Career Path (teaching, pivot to law): 14:26–18:25
• Obama Campaign, Organizing: 20:08–21:20
• Finding Your Flow State & Spiritual Practices: 23:15–25:33
• Should Government Only Be Lawyers?: 33:28–39:46
• Vulnerability & Representation (Kasanet’s Literacy): 43:10–45:45
• Impostor Syndrome at Root 100: 47:04–49:35
• Black Joy vs. Hard Times & The Harlem Renaissance: 54:05–55:20
• Why Black-owned Media Matters: 60:40–61:53

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The Importance of This Conversation

This episode is overflowing with wisdom on building, owning, and sharing Black spaces; the necessity for collaboration over competition; and the critical need for diverse Black voices in media and public life. The rapport between Deante’ and Ashley brings out both laughter and depth, from stories of career pivots and parties to the reality of being seen on the biggest stages. The call to empower, encourage, and tell one’s own story underscores every moment.

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Episode Links

• The Root: theroot.com
• Watering Hole Media: (Find on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok)
• Ashley Allison on Twitter/Instagram: @ashleyrallison

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For anyone building, dreaming, or striving: let this episode be inspiration to take up space, build new tables, and remember the joy, even when the world outside is heavy.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Yay. Woke up in the morning and to God be the glory Thankful for another day to tell my story Put my opinions in the universe and let them orbit I'm from the dirty south with a dirty mouth Might need orbit Miss things things on me like a nigga Norbit had to refuse them cause my bitch no rest Fusion she gorgeous As I out my sons up and kiss my daughter forehead Tell them we going to get this money to my pockets Morbid. Remember living in apartments now we playing mortgage. This works. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I'm not independently wealthy. There's a thing called investor, you know?

[B]

But here's the thing. I think with black people, it's like, we was talking about this in the last interview. Like, how much poverty skews your perception of reality.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Where it's like, even me still. Like, when they said Charlamagne had got the 2 million, 100 million, I'm like, well, let me get a million dollars, bro. It's like, bro, this is the company's money, bro. It's an investment. It's not like I ain't got 200 liquor.

[A]

That's right. Yeah.

[B]

You know, talk about that. Talk about that process of, are we recording? Man? We get right into it. Once you see that red light, once you see me do the little snap.

[A]

Oh, I didn't even see it.

[B]

Did you see it? Yeah, we good to go.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

We good to go. We're gonna send this over for review and editing.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know what I'm saying?

[A]

You know how to. We'll sign a. I'm trying to keep

[B]

now. Keep that contract.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? Okay, let's go.

[B]

Yeah, but I guess we could do, like, a proper intro.

[A]

Do whatever you want. It's your show. It's your world.

[B]

I'm just living in it type, you know what I'm saying? Welcome back.

[A]

Hello. Welcome to the Deontay Kyle Gritson Eggs podcast.

[B]

Oh, yeah, no, you do the intro.

[A]

No, I'm not.

[B]

Or you got me in the root. You know what I'm saying? That was a. That was a. That was a U call.

[A]

Oh, absolutely, man.

[B]

I feel like that when you. When they told me that, I was like, really? Yeah.

[A]

Can I tell you something?

[B]

What's up?

[A]

I was never on the Route 100.

[B]

For real. So you had to go buy that? Like, I'm gonna get on that.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? Like, I was like, I'm gonna be on the list.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I wanted to be on every year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I never was, so, like, who was on the list mattered to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Especially my first year.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

You deserve it.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. That was the. The fourth quarter of 2025 was really like, oh, this is some solidifying shit happening for me. Like, the root was big for me because the company that I'm in, and then it was just like, everything was like, you are here to stay. That's what we are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Honestly, that was what that night did for me, too. It was like, I'm here and I deserve to be here.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And I'm not going anywhere.

[B]

And it was an amazing event.

[A]

Yo, I can throw a banger.

[B]

Nah, you throwing a banger.

[A]

I'm telling Allison we know how to party.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I get that from my daddy.

[B]

I miss Ashley. Allison here in the Grist and X podcast root all the things. She's the. She's the girl. You know what I'm saying? Watering Hole media.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yes. This is a very important thing to me with you being here. I need y' all to watch everything Watering Ho Media puts out, because a lot of the conversations that y' all say y' all want to see had are being had, and y' all just don't know about it. So discover the watering hole Water and Hope Media on YouTube.

[A]

YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, the other platform that shall not be named. Yeah. And then we're coming out with new content. Thank you for coming on. I think you were already going to be on the list, but. Okay. There's this story. So our head of casting didn't tell us she slid in your DMs.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Until you responded.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because she didn't want to be embarrassed.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then she just dropped it in the group chat, and she was like, don't ever disrespect my DM game, Emily.

[B]

Right? Yeah.

[A]

And I was like. And then when we got on the phone with you, we were all just like. And you were like, y' all cheesy. What's wrong with you? We were just like. You were excited. We were excited. And I think why you deserve to be on the ROO is your talent, your show, but it's the way you rock and show up for us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No questions asked. We got on the phone, you were like, okay, I want to do this. Let me connect you to my dude in Detroit. Da da, da, da, da. It just was easy. And I think that's what we should be doing for our peers is making it easy. There's so many doors that are not locked, that are locked. There's so many doors we don't even know about. Why are we, like, pulling it close? To keep you out. To keep me out. We can grow together. So I'm just glad to be in the space with you.

[B]

I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I'm glad to be thought of, to be honest. But that said, I'm also, like, a big proponent of that. Like, why I'm not closing the door on nobody. No. I do it literally right before we came in here, it's this dude I connected with just because I like this series he was doing. So I kind of, like, made a thread about this series. It's like, some. A saying he has that's been going around called Elevated Awakenings, where he, like, we rebranding the Grand Rising. We making it.

[A]

Oh, oh.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? He's doing it, but it's, like, funny, you know what I'm saying? And, like, he reached out, and I know him on TikTok for years, and he just was like, yo, I'm trying to do a series, but I don't know anything about it. I was like, bet, I'll link you with my manager. We'll show you how to make a pitch deck. We'll show you how to promote. Like, we'll do everything. It's nothing. I don't. I don't gain anything by holding people out.

[A]

Yeah. It's like when I got my contract at cnn, like, couldn't get on a network for even just an interview, but when they called me, I was like, I'm a lawyer by training. I was like, I don't know how to negotiate a commentator contract. I don't know what to ask for, what not to ask for. So I called people who had them. I was like, can you help me out? Can I get an agent? Like, what do you. I don't know how you get an agent. And so many people want to be gatekeepers. Not just black people, but people in general want to be gatekeepers. It's because of insecurity. It's because people feel like if I have a come up, you can't have a come up. And that's just such a minimal and scarce way to live life.

[B]

It is. But it's also weird to me that y' all are gatekeepers. Unless the person is coming to, like, completely exploit you. Y' all open the floodgates up for exploitation because it looks lucrative and it looks like a crossover and it looks like, yeah, mainstream. And I think.

[A]

But at what cost?

[B]

The cost is always losing the thing that made it what it is.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We've been in conversations with a couple of different companies and of course, for a lot of them, it's very early. For me, it's early. But it's also, like, I'm open to hearing people out. There's never a conversation about IP because it's not happening. There's never a conversation about switching platforms and it's not gonna happen. I'm cool. I like being independent. I like being able to say whatever I wanna say. And the only person that can lose is me.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, I'm not losing nobody else. No bread. If I lose a sponsorship, like, so be it. We'll get another one. But I think for me, the idea of somebody telling me what to do after I done built this thing up by myself, even when I was driving trucks, people couldn't tell me what to do. And I work for somebody else.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So it's like, yeah, I don't understand this mentality of let me keep everything for myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then come people posture towards you because they see the value of it. But the underlying goal is to always capture. You know what I mean?

[A]

I mean, what you're building is ownership in its own. Right. Right. It looks different. And I think that this is the moment with how media is changing. Mainstream media will still be there. I think it will always have a role, but it's not the only thing in the ecosystem now. And so you have your ownership with this platform. Owning your IP is a game changer. Like, think about. I don't know when I used to come up and we will watch movies about Motown or Ray or whatever. We'd be like he got the masters, he got like he got the rights to his music. Like people used to take our crafts, take our exploit as we get 5 cents on the dollar but they would own the IP. And so when we think about the root, we think about owning ip, we think about things we want to put on our platform, but how we don't become exploitative of the folks who are also wanting to have their own platform. So how can we think of a revenue sharing model together? How can we. Let's just be creative. We have an opportunity to rewrite how we do this thing.

[B]

Absolutely. And the mod is played out.

[A]

Yeah, it's like the, the every day there's something new happening and if you can't stay flexible to stay in the clip, then you, you gonna be Nintendo in. I don't even know what the thing is now. An Xbox 5. Xbox 5 Play. What is it? PS5?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, PlayStation 5.

[A]

Well I know Nintendo and Atari ain't it no more that much.

[B]

I mean they just dropped the switch too. But it still ain't that. No, you know what I'm saying. Because, because of the lack of collaboration and the, you know, once you get so big that you're like a mega corporation, you do need to kind of open the doors up because you have to expand. But when you close the doors it becomes very niche for people. So like if you want to play specific to Nintendo games then there's for you but like the expansiveness of things like Steam where Steam will allow you to play anything, PC, PS5, Xbox. So it's like when you competing with people that kind of open the doors up, keeping your doors closed can seem a little like standoffish to people.

[A]

Well, I mean not to get into politics too much, but world leaders that try and be nationalists or isolationists don't really work in the long run anyway. For sure you're a global, your domestic economy doesn't grow as large as it could with a global economy. So go for it. Maybe you get a good three year run. I hope you made enough money to survive. Yeah, after three years.

[B]

That's my, that's my talking point. A lot of times on Pandemic Africanism is like, I understand the need to preserve black American culture. I understand the need to identify black American culture. I'm proud to be black American. I know I have generations of family that been here tracing back way past my great grandmother. So I'm proud of the lineage, I'm proud of the history. I also understand that being an isolationist has a short run. So if I cut myself off from all these people that share in these struggles, Colonialism is a playbook. So where you are is colonized too. We're definitely having these arguments in English. So it's like shutting myself off to you for one or two differences when there's so many cultural parallels and historical parallels is silly to me because if you isolate yourself from people, not only are you easier to exploit, you're easier to attack, you're easier to divide, but you also like lack the, the strengths of like collaboration.

[A]

I think about it through sports. Okay, let me see if this little idea have worked. So imagine you are a talent scout for an NBA team or a college team, but you only recruit from three states. You better hope that all American comes from your three states.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm telling you, or else you gonna, you gonna have a rough couple years and like every once in a while maybe. But the talent is everywhere. It is, it's everywhere. And so if you narrow your talent pool, if you narrow your idea pool, if you narrow your, your access to capital pool, you're going to lose.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You don't lose. You're not going to be the, you're not going to be the championship team.

[B]

Right. And I think that there's a difference between having a niche audience and then niche business practices.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like the business, so to speak, of race that most people operate in is a very tight knit way of dealing with each other. But if they cast a net wide with everybody.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I think if we're gonna, if we're gonna have a short cast on our net, then our collaboration need to be wide.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because then there's a vastness.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, it's a spectrum of things. And I, I, you know, because even to that analogy that you have, if I, if I'm like, I only recruit on the East Coast, east coast has the best basketball players. And then a draft wimby, I'd be like, damn. Or I wouldn't even think about Europe shouting rap music.

[A]

You know, early 90s, it was all New York, then West coast, then the South. It's just like we wouldn't have Master P, we wouldn't have Ludacris, we wouldn't have Cube, we wouldn't have Biggie.

[B]

Like, we need those things.

[A]

We need those things. That is, that is the, that is the canon of hip hop. But if you just like we only gonna let People in New York rap.

[B]

Yeah. And bring your flag, you know, bring

[A]

your flag, represent, be proud of you.

[B]

Bring your flag with you. But understand that, like, all these flags make this better.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, so let's talk about the career, the resume of Ashley Allison. Let's not talk like the purchasing of the root is major, but there's a long road that we gotta take before we get there. I heard you mention law before. Let's talk about, like, early in your career, like, where did you go to college? What was your college pursuit? And how did that serve you in the ongoing career?

[A]

I'm a Buckeye. I went to Ohio State.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And my dad was a Buckeye as well. He went to Ohio State. And Ohio State was formative because it was like living in a little city. 50, 000 people go to that college campus.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's a small. That's. That's bigger than a small city.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's for real.

[A]

And so I really found what I love to do there. I was in student government. I started. Helped start one of the black student. We had a black student newspaper, but it wasn't getting done what it needed to get done. And so my friend started this thing and he brought me on to be one of his first writers called Black Horizons. And it's funny because somebody just sent me one of my old articles. I had this column called Ashley's Answers, where I would like, what's going on with the basketball courts on south campus? Are police harassing black people? And I wrote this. It was not pullit surprise, but it was. I. You know, but I've just always been interested in telling stories, telling. Connecting people through those stories to policy changes. So whether it is. I've always been an advocate, I've always been a writer. I've always wanted to be on television or radio. So I'd started that in college, but then I took a real strong pivot and I became a high school teacher. I went to the continent. I went to South Africa for a study abroad. And I saw how excited those young kids were for education. And I was like, you know, maybe I should give back in that way. And so let me tell you something. I taught in Bed Stuy, Brooklyn High School, Special education. That was the hardest job I ever had. And I still apply so many things I've learned to this day, like if you can get a high school student to follow your instructions, you can get the president of the United States to follow your instructions.

[B]

Absolutely. Especially in that neighborhood, because that is

[A]

where those are the smartest kids.

[B]

That's where my family from.

[A]

Those my dad is from, those I taught at Boys and Girls High School. Those kids could run circles around most of the CEOs in this country. They just never had the opportunity or the chance. And so I taught them, but they taught me a lot.

[B]

Yeah. Because they have wit.

[A]

They are so like, so smart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you better. You got to have thick skin too.

[B]

Yeah. We talk a lot about the diversity of intelligence where the standard of America is predicated on a certain type of intelligence. A lot of times it's a regurgitative intelligence. What's your ability to. Yeah. Taking information. Spit it back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But my dad being from Brownsville, my aunt lives in Bed Stuy still. And those neighborhoods is like, even when I was a kid, I was a true 10 year old and my 8 year old cousin was like way more mature.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because like they're just living a different life. Like it's like if you're going to be outside, you got to be able to handle yourself and this is a wild place to live.

[A]

You know what I mean? That's right.

[B]

So you grow up very fast. But I'm interested into like where that,

[A]

how does that intersect? Yeah.

[B]

Where does that. How do you, how do you steer out of education? Because it seems like a passion thing too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Easy to get like stuck in your passions as well.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I will say that what I learned though in the classroom is that it actually wasn't my passion. What my passion was was seeing the injustices in the school system and wanting to go fix them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I was like, okay, I've done. My sister's a teacher too. She loves it. She's been teaching one of the best teachers in Washington. Literally like one of the best teachers in Washington D.C. and she wouldn't give it up for the world. I was like, this is not it for me. And so I then went and I was like, I'm going to study law so I can figure out how to file lawsuits, how to, you know, my kids would get stopped by police in the, in Brooklyn and they, you know, I want to figure out how to advocate for them. The same time I was living in Brooklyn was when the Barclays center was built, which is where now the Nets play and the Liberty play. And they had to get rid of a lot of low income and affordable housing there. And they just took it away from people from. Because of imminent domain. So I was seeing all these things happen around me. It was the year Sean Bell was murdered by Police officers coming out of a club, leaving his bachelor party the night before his wedding. Like, police violence, economic injustice, housing issues, just everything was, like, compounding on me. And I was like, I want to change the world. And so I went to law school while I. When I finished law school was when the reelection of Barack Obama was happening. And I has studied some people that I really thought I would want to do what they did in their career. And one of the things that I learned is, like, if you want to get into politics and really get into advocacy, you got to start early on a campaign. So I moved back to my home state of Ohio, and I worked on the reelection of Obama for two years. And there was, like, this moment in that campaign where I could have got a pretty big promotion and managed, like, this massive team. That was back when Ohio was a battleground state. And if you won Ohio, you won the election.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

I could have gotten this big promotion of, like, organize, like, managing a bunch of people who would organize, big budget, all this stuff. Or I could be a sole person organizing black people in the state. And the campaign was like, you got it. You gotta. You gotta take this promotion. And I was like, I'm gonna go organize black people. And in eight months, we were able to go increase black voter turnout from 2008 to 2012 by 4%, which is huge.

[B]

Which is in the state.

[A]

In the state.

[B]

Oh, yeah. That's crazy.

[A]

That doesn't happen. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But you know why I was able to do that is because I had minimal resources. But you know where else I had minimal resources when I was a teacher?

[B]

For sure.

[A]

It's like, okay, my kids have to pass this test. I don't have a copy machine to make copies. Who's gonna make copies for me? Oh, there's another teacher down the. Like, okay, can I give you my things to make copies on the weekends, and then I have them for the week? Oh, you work at a library, man. Can you be a volunteer? And all you have to do to volunteer for this campaign is get us literature, you know? Like, so it's just, like, you just. It's a. It's a hustle. It's a. Like.

[B]

But it's also like, I think the. The thing that people undermine a lot of times is, like, how creative you can be when it's necessary. Like, when you. When you. You. When you have needs, but you don't have the means to get them. You got to get creative. You got to get creative, but you got to get collaborative.

[A]

Yes. Yes. And it was the first time I remember my dad. I went home because my folks. I'm from Ohio and we're from Youngstown. So I went home, was organizing up from Youngstown. Yeah.

[B]

What shot? Who shot him from Youngstown? That went. What's buddy name? He. I think he was running back for.

[A]

Oh, Reese. Maurice Colorett.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I grew up with him.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, bro.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was at school. We were. We went. Maurice. So my sister and I and Maurice, his brother Bear and his brother Michael, we all went to Boys Girls Club together. Growing up hard. So. Like our family. Yeah. So talking about your dad. Yeah, my dad. I went home because, you know, like, I was still in my 20s, didn't really know what I was doing. Hadn't really found my stride. My dad is like, you just graduated from law school and you are moving back to Ohio to work as a field worker organizer. Are you sure about this? Like, you not gonna go practice law? And I'm like, no, dad is really. I want to do. And I came home one day and he heard me on the phone. He was like, she found it. She found her purpose. Like, he's like, I've never seen her work this hard before. I've never seen her be so good. And he was like, this is it for her.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And then it was just kind of like off to the races.

[B]

Yeah. That finding your spot is like. It's like you could feel it too.

[A]

Like that little shimmy. You know what I mean? Like.

[B]

Yeah. Is that like being in, like a flow state?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Where, like, time don't matter. Like, the only thing that matters is this mission.

[A]

The assignment.

[B]

Yeah, the assignment, man. Yeah, I, I. Those times, like, you can't bottle that up.

[A]

No, you can't.

[B]

So it's like when you experience it, it's just something you hold on to until you as long as you can.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God. I have in. In athletics, it happens every now and then. It's like, you can attest to this part too. Like, did you play any. Have you ever played sports? So, you know, like that flow state that you'll hit, like, it'll always hit. Like, when. When you least expect it. You're never thinking about it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But I had this. I was playing this basketball game. I was in ninth grade, and I was playing wreck. Because I, I knew I couldn't make, like, high school. Cause I was short. But, like, I always wanted to play basketball. I always was like, had this AI mentality. Like, I don't care. I'm just Go at everybody on the court. And, like, I didn't miss a shot the whole game. And, like, I was like, oh, I'm for sure making a team next year. And it was like, bruh, no, bruh, you not quick enough. You not tall enough. But I just remember that game. Cause even, like, it came down to a buzzer beater. I hit a buzzer beater, all type of shit. I felt like I had won the state championship. And it's like, bro, this is Deer Lick Park. Y' all niggas wearing T shirts.

[A]

Like.

[B]

But it's like. But it's like those moments where it's like, you can't miss. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like, I've experienced that on the podcast where, like, I don't know what it is. I'll just. I'll just look up like, oh, yeah,

[A]

we just did that for, man.

[B]

Yeah, that was. And he'll be like, bro, that was an hour. Yeah, you were just.

[A]

We called that I'm a big yogi. And we call that being in train. And it's when, like, the room, the breath starts moving together, right? Like, you get so. You get so. And I teach yoga. I haven't taught it in a while, but I teach, and I used to teach a class only for black and brown women.

[B]

Hold on one second.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Shout out to black women, bro. Black women be doing everything.

[A]

But I've been in Yogi for, like, 25 years.

[B]

The resume get crazy.

[A]

But. But that is. That piece of me is some. A piece that a lot of people don't know about. But I have a very strong spiritual and mental practice to stay clear, to get in the flow. Because when you not in the flow, it's funky, man.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's like.

[B]

It's tough.

[A]

Get me out of here.

[B]

It's tough.

[A]

It's 20, 25. I was like, the country was out of flow, right?

[B]

It's just.

[A]

It was just like. It don't gotta be like this.

[B]

I would. I would liken it to, like, I drive a stick shift and, like, stalling out in the middle of traffic. It's like you feel like everybody looking at you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you know, you.

[A]

And you're like, guys, I.

[B]

What I'm doing. Trust me. Trust me, guys. I'm not doing this.

[A]

I got this. I got.

[B]

It's just a mistake.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Speaking of Pan Africanism, this is my Yukon right here, man.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

A Nigerian brother. You know what I'm saying? You know all the Nigerians in Atlanta

[A]

okay, that sounds like a whole different podcast.

[B]

No, I be. I just. It's not true. I just tell everybody. I'm like, yeah, Yukon, he know every Nigerian. Like, every Nigerian American they know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, man, I think so. Out of. Out of organizing. So do you ever get to a space where you practice law?

[A]

Never.

[B]

Yeah. How did you get your eyes set on DC?

[A]

So I love New York. Like, I'm like the black Carrie Bradshaw. Like, New York was my first love. You know what? I like, I thought I was sex in the city out here. You know what I mean? I did. I really, really.

[B]

Everybody can relate to sex in the city. Sex in the city made New York look like that spot.

[A]

It was.

[B]

It's like I. I always have wanted to exist in the medium of sex and the city and the where you from video by Jay Z. Like, if I can live in that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if I could find that.

[A]

Yes, I'm good. Yes. So, like, I. I'm loving New York City, right? Like 20, my whole 20s in New York. Just God loves me because he protected me, you know what I'm saying? Like, because I was out in these streets. Right?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Having a good old time, spending too much money messing up my credit. Not. Not a care in the world. Right? But I was like, you can't. When I left, I was like, you can't come back until you got your. Your life together. Like, you. You can't get caught up because you have something to do, Ashley. And this is a distraction. So it was. Come back when you hit this milestone in your life and, like, in New York is expensive. It's like, oh, trust me, it's worse now. It's worse now.

[B]

Me and me and like, it would seem unreasonable to rent a car to drive around New York, but trust me, it. At this point, if you don't rent a car, you're gonna spend like a thousand.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

In three days on rides, on ride shares.

[A]

It's absurd.

[B]

Nah, I ain't gonna hold you, like, low key. I'll be one to like. Bro, we're taking the car. Hey, I'm sorry. I know this was a lift. It's now a stick up. Let me get this car. This is crazy.

[A]

Five blocks is a 50, bro.

[B]

That is. That is insane.

[A]

It's insane.

[B]

We was on the way to the Breakfast Club. We was on the block. We're half a mile away. It's 10 minutes.

[A]

It's 10 minutes.

[B]

I said, bro, we gonna hop out.

[A]

Yeah, we gonna just walk.

[B]

It's a three minute walk.

[A]

That's Right.

[B]

Yeah. We're just gonna hop out.

[A]

It's. It's absurd. It's offensive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

And he like, y. Yeah, okay. I'm like, yeah, I bet. Okay.

[A]

All right. I bet you already done robbed me. Taking all my life savings to go five blocks. I met. Oh I. The other. Because I go to New York a lot for cnn and all my friends live in Brooklyn. So I'm like, fine, I'll go to Brooklyn or whatever. And I opened the r. It was $150 to go to Brooklyn.

[B]

I ain't gonna lie. That lift shit is disrespectful.

[A]

I was just like, maybe I'll see you next time when you're in the city.

[B]

I swear to God. And then you wonder why nobody want to come to you.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

You better pick to live where your friends are or you will never see

[B]

them or just buy a helicopter.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? One of the two.

[A]

One of the two. But wait, what? We were talking about your 20s New York. Okay. So I used to go to D.C. for like, congressional Black Caucus. Never really liked it, but, you know, when I finished the Obama campaign, the only natural thing was to move to D.C. because it was like, I need to finish, follow this career path. Now I've been living in D.C. for 13 years, and I still don't call it home.

[B]

Yeah, it's not your vibe.

[A]

It's not my vibe. It's not. It's just I've given it the good old college try, but I just find myself being a multi city girl. Now.

[B]

D.C. is our surveillance state, everything. I mean, America, yes, yes. But D.C. jesus, man. Yeah, I got a ticket. I was going 60 and a 55. They sent me a ticket. I said, what are we doing?

[A]

Oh, one of those camera. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

They got cameras everywhere. Yeah, I mean, I get it. Protect the like.

[A]

But like five miles, like, you know what I'm saying? Give me a grace. No, D.C. is just like, it's fine, it's fine. But it is. It's a very transient city. So every four years, in and out, people coming in because of administrations. Like after the Obamas left, almost every one of my friends left too. Like, I was just in the city, like, hello, hello, you know, kind of thing. But I stayed and worked at a civil rights organization. I just felt like, like, again, there was no place calling me. I'm also at a place in my life where I'm like, I'm not just gonna move someplace because to try it Out. I need to have some purpose when I go there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I spent about 25% of my time in DC. I always say my mail goes to DC, but I spend about 50 of my time in New York and then about 25 of my time on the road.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When you say on the road, like when you travel, is this organizing? Heard you.

[A]

I felt that. And next week I'm in Atlanta, next week I'll be in New York and the following week I'll be in la.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Two weeks ago I was in Mexico City.

[B]

So like, okay, you thought they're being a hot girl.

[A]

Listen. No, I was actually being frozen to death because Mexico City is brick but has the best food.

[B]

This doesn't sound like it should be in the same sentence.

[A]

It is in the mountains. It is a valley.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It is not.

[B]

It's what we experienced when we went to California.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We was in LA and we was like, it is, it is July. Sun shines on California. They put us in the hills. It's cold as.

[A]

It's cold.

[B]

I'm like, what's happening?

[A]

It's like, go to the bay. The first time I went to the bay, I was like, why am I in California and why is it cold?

[B]

You know where you notice got from the West Coast. And you see how people on the west coast dressing you like, why do them dress like that? Why you got on a thermal and shorts. No, this is a very functional swag. Yeah. Because it's like breezy.

[A]

It is, it is. In the morning it'll be like 50

[B]

and then,

[A]

and then if you don't make it home before then, it'll be 30 and you like, you catch cold. That's my grandma says pneumonia getting weather.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's my homie told me everywhere you go, just take the hoodie.

[A]

Just take it.

[B]

No matter, you know what I'm saying? Wear what you want to wear, but be prepared. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I'm, I'm curious as, like, how do you, how do you land at cnn? Where. What's the pathway? I want to ask. You know what? That's a, this is a two parter.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because, because you did go to school to learn law. Even if you haven't practiced it, you did learn about policy. You do learn about. These are skills that you need to organize and things like that. Because you have to understand the law.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

I'm curious as to like, you know, hypothetical world, hypothetical government. Should there be more Careers involved in the practice of government and how we do government outside of lawyers.

[A]

Oh, absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. I, I'm a very council based person. So like, I think that I don't want to. I don't want a lawyer talking to me about nutrition.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I don't want a lawyer talking to me about education either. Unless they practice. Like, unless you've been in the classroom.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like if you as a former educator were then. Yes. But like you don't have no career in education.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

All of these things seem like they come from a place of like, like capital and law.

[A]

Yeah. So I. Yes. I think that the challenge we currently have in our country is that there are rows and people don't think you can really like get out of your row or there are again, like doors or levers that people. It's an elite approach to it. Right. It's like, you don't have this experience, so why would I let you in? Now I'll tell you a story. When I worked at the White House, I started working there a month before Michael Brown was murdered. So my whole portfolio was police violence.

[B]

And this is also in the, in the midst of the Trayvon Martin situation.

[A]

Yes, yes. So Michael Brown, I'm like, everyone's like, why? I mean, not why are you going to work at the White House? But like, again, you make sacrifices. When you go work at the White House, you start. You're at one point in your career and then you like take a significant pay cut. But I'm like, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity.

[B]

Yeah, it's the White House.

[A]

It's the White House. Right. For the first black president.

[B]

Yeah. My people built this shit.

[A]

Like, what are we doing? Why are you. The fact that you're asking me this question says more about you than me. But I start the month before Michael Brown is murdered. And when I was in law school, I did a lot of. I took a path of public interest law and police reform. And so like studying the way DA offices decided to prosecute cases. Studying. So I had some experience in it and just so happened that this is now what we're going to start focusing on in the final three years of the administration. And like to me, you know, when they were trying to figure out, well, what do we do on Ferguson when there's tanks on the streets? I was like, well, why don't we talk to the people that are like in the streets? Why don't we talk to the protesters, the advocates? We can also talk to the police officers. Like, we can Hear all sides of the story. But, like, we can't just say, let's do police reform and only talk to police. You actually have to talk to people who have been unjustly impacted by police.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

You also have to talk to people who might live in a high crime area and understand what they might want from police.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And when we then started working on criminal justice reform, it's like, how are you going to talk about prison reform without talking to someone who has actually

[B]

been incarcerated and like that. Yeah. Like, let's talk about sheep reform. Live with. With the wolves. Right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, right, right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. It's like, you wouldn't. You wouldn't ask Tiger woods how to win the NBA championship.

[B]

No, you wouldn't. And I think the thing is, is, like, we're also talking to the people who not only enforce power, but benefit from enforcing power. And are the, you know, are the people who are not afflicted by the system, so to speak, Especially in a prison, you get to leave.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Police, of course. Dangerous job. Whatever. Whatever. You know, the consequences of harming you in the line of duty. Line of duty are so severe that the person who will take that risk either has nothing to lose.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or has ours is severe like. Or is mentally ill. Let's just keep it real. You know what I mean? So, like, I get it. Dangerous, y'. All. Whatever, whatever. But, like, you're making living dangerous for people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we don't need to have these conversations.

[A]

You can't.

[B]

It's just not smart because you're still a person.

[A]

You're still a person. I can.

[B]

Yeah, I can take human side of it, but I also have to take the approach of the people that have to deal with you.

[A]

That's right. That's right. And I think part of it is how I approach advocacy. Who should be in these roles, who should be in these rooms is like, you don't tell a story. Well, you can, but you rarely. Rarely tell a story with one character.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

Right. There. There are. There are main characters, there are supporting characters. And so why would you think you could tell. Find a solution with one character. Right. So to. That's to be said that I think that people who are in stem, I think people who are in the arts, people who are in law, people who are in education, should all explore opportunities to work in public service.

[B]

Yes. Because even. Even a environmentalist, as an expert, you're coming on as an expert. As a. As a. So somebody to, you know, counsel. But you're not an active Participant, you can't make a difference. So if this environmentalist sits in Congress, then we know that their vote is going to be for what's good for the environment.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And not for what's good for a corporation.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

That's why I think people running for public office is so important. Like, that's not my ministry, that's not my assignment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think seeing teachers run, seeing mechanics run, seeing doctors run is extremely important because I don't need to go to medical school to benefit from somebody who has been to medical school.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because we go to doctors. Right. So like, why not also have somebody that is going to sit on the Health and Human Services committee of the Congress or the Senate, have some experience in health and human.

[B]

I mean, just maybe, maybe. You know what I mean, it. I mean, maybe maybe. You know what I mean? I'm just throwing shit at the wall.

[A]

Right. You know what I mean?

[B]

You know what I'm saying? And not like play doctors on tv.

[A]

Tv, no.

[B]

You know, like actual, real physicians.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, I want to see your transcripts.

[A]

Right. Like I call and verify enough Gray's Anatomy to think I could be. Yeah.

[B]

If I watch House, I can tell you.

[A]

Right. Like I really do believe I'm like, oh, just put a central line in and be good to go. You know what I mean?

[B]

But I don't know where the 50cc is.

[A]

Right. I don't know which rib. You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, you need people that are in practice, that. The education part is extremely important because like you said, your, your passing education helped you organize because you understood.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And I need. And without that, you would have been in no man's land.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So. And you know, always me always being a great example. We had a young lady in here the other day, Bri Woodson. She's running from 12th district Congress in Georgia.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

She's running up against a good old boy, somebody who is a legacy politician, family, come from a wealthy family, rural district. So, you know, health care is a big thing for her, but she's also a clinical psychologist. She deals with people with mental health and addiction. She also in her younger years dealt with addiction and dealt with sex trafficking. So she has such a real life experience that she cares about the humans that who are constituents because she knows what people are facing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She knows the struggles of employment without like a degree, like entry level employment, just making ends meet. She understands the people because she is one of the people that's Right. And also her want to address the healthcare industry knowing, like, in the district she lives in, if a woman. Her water breaks, she has to drive 60 miles.

[A]

There's no hospital to.

[B]

A hospital.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

60 miles to OBGYN. And these are the things that she wants to address. And who better to address it than the person that understands.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

What it is. Whereas you have somebody from a wealthy family. They may have a family doctor. They may have somebody come in, and all of these things. Those things don't necessarily exist in the neighborhood. There's not a door to door doctor. You need to go to a facility.

[A]

Yeah. So it's the respect for the diversification of ideas.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

And I think that we live in a society now where we are able to find our little corner of the Internet and never be challenged. It's actually why I like doing what I do on cnn, because, like, I don't mind. Now, you're not gonna lie to me in my face that I don't stand for it, but you can say something that I disagree with, and it requires me to think and prove you wrong. Right. But that doesn't. I'm okay with that type of exchange. I think it actually makes me smarter to have that type of exchange versus just always get it. Being around. Yes. People.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever you say. Whatever you say, Doc. Whatever you say that it's like.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Well, one of the things that people always ask me is, like, well, what books are you reading? Or what are you, like, how do you come to perspectives? And it's like, more than literature. I engage with content I don't agree with.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because I want to know what people opposite of me are thinking, you know, as much as I am for black people. I want to know with people who don't care about black people at all. Because what is your idea of me?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And.

[A]

And why.

[B]

Why? That is the thing. It's like, I am always looking for the why.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I'm. And you. We leave childhood. We leave why in our childhood at like, 8. We leave it at 13. And if you never return to. Yeah. Then I know that you ain't learning nothing. Because there's a situation going on right now with Kasanet where he's being public about his. He's trying to learn. He's trying to learn how to speak better. He understands that it'll require him to read, and he also understands how bad he is at literacy at this point. I wouldn't say he's illiterate, but you know, he has work to do. And during his reading, he's coming across words that he doesn't recognize, and he's using the dictionary, and then he's also figuring out how to use. Use it in a sentence and what it really means. And people are like, see y' all told y' all these to be done. It's like, no, this is actually. This is actually amazing.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

No, this is what needs to be happening. A thesaurus, a dictionary, your best friend.

[A]

That's right, you.

[B]

And also, like being studious enough to stop and go look.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah, this is. These are. This is great.

[A]

This is great. And it's never too late.

[B]

It's never too late. And it's also only people that would criticize that are people who probably are at or below his reading level.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know, and. Because it takes a certain amount of bravery to admit you don't know. Yeah, but also, this is the pathway to intelligence.

[A]

But you know what, though? I bet you people who would criticize him are actually above his grade level, too. It's like, people, that's.

[B]

That's what goes back to our first point about shutting that gate. You want to close the gate?

[A]

I want to close the gate. People cannot have no control over their. Their born into circumstance. They. All they can do is make the best of what they have. And right now, he is making the best of what he has.

[B]

And he's trying.

[A]

A teacher failed him.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Time and time again.

[B]

And he has enough personality and he has another level of intelligence that may not be rewarded in society, but he found a place where he's very charismatic.

[A]

You know what? I'm gonna make sure my sister knows about this. And if you're an educator, you should tell your other educators or if you know an educator to watch this, because do you know how many young black boys are in school right now that might be struggling and have no desire or don't feel like they have somebody pouring in them to say, like, just take the time and look it up in the dictionary. You know, if people watch Kai Sinat,

[B]

here's the thing that's more powerful he's talking about. This is just me. Pattern recognition. And also just having a vision for things, even when they don't have nothing to do with me. I could see him having a desire to get into fashion and completely transform literacy.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

He could shout. It could be Reading Rainbow, like, if he wanted to, because. What's the guy's name who does Reading Rainbow now?

[A]

Lavar.

[B]

No, that's OG the young dude. His name is Michael.

[A]

Oh, the. Oh, he was on the Librarian. Yeah. Oh, my God, I can't believe Mike. Yeah, but Michael. Yes, the Librarian. Yes. And.

[B]

But think about this. That the. And just be honest. The average young black boy doesn't connect with him.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

But they'll connect with a constant man. That's right. And, you know, on your journey, let's apologize for this whole black Americans don't have culture thing. That'll get you out of everything else. Just apologize. Yeah, but this was early in his career. He not know. He don't know no better. This is just talking part. He heard people say. Yeah, you know, also, you know, he struggles with literacy.

[A]

Right? Yeah, Yeah, I saw that. I also.

[B]

They get weird, and. And it also is like something that black people are just gonna hold on to. Yeah, you said that this one time. So I don't care what you're doing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Just apologize.

[A]

Yeah, I. I also saw he was saying he was struggling with. He was saying he's not depressed, but he just lacks confidence. And I just thought that. I'm not following it closely, but most people don't follow it closely.

[B]

Yeah. I'm seeing the clips like you are.

[A]

I just thought that took, like, a level of. Of. Of security and confidence to say that out loud. Do you know how many people walk. Do you know how many times I would go on cnn, like, the first couple years and feel very. Not insecure, but uncertain about what I was going to say, how I was going to say, how I was going to go over. I don't feel like that now because I put my reps in.

[B]

Yeah. And it's natural.

[A]

But you know how you, like, have to pretend, like, just. Just be honest. Just be like. The vulnerability will save people, man.

[B]

I'mma tell you, last time I experienced it when. When y' all had me speak at the root, really, I was like, I don't know if I'm going to do good at this. I don't. These people are up there, they're reading effortlessly. They so. And I was like. Like, I don't think I know how to do this.

[A]

You crushed it, though.

[B]

Crushed it.

[A]

You did.

[B]

You know what I mean? Killed it. But prior to, I'm like, fuck, Don Lemon's out there. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think it's an added pressure because this is, you know, excellence is exhausting. But for the sake of. For the lack of a better term, black excellence, this is what this room is. And it's like I have peers in here. I have people who are here, who aren't, who didn't make the list. So they're excited that I did. And it's like, fudge, what if I get up there and start stumbling and fumbling? And then before I went on the stage I was like, nigga, this what you do?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know what I mean? Yeah, you, you, you earned this spot. You ain't here by accident. Ain't nobody did you.

[A]

No, you were hand select. I mean, to be clear though, we also have a we not algorithm, but we have a rubric that we use. So like we put names on the list and then we score people. And you never were below 100. You never. I don't, I don't even, I don't even want. Because we took the rankings off. So I don't remember. But like, you know, we. It. We were rigorous in this. It was, I think 15 people submitted your name on the team that put the started the list. Like you were not, not going to be on it after the year you had had.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

You know what I mean? And I think that it is fine for you to feel nervous going into that room, but I also feel like talk your shit, you know, like, sorry, Mom. You know, I try not to cuss on air, but like, like, you had enough.

[B]

If you gonna cuss anywhere, then.

[A]

I know, I know, I know. But she's like, you don't have to be vulgar, Ashley. You can get your point across.

[B]

Ma, you're right, Ashley. You actually are right. You know, I do a lot of just talking. Cause my mama had as transition.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

If mom Duke was still present, I know she would watch me and I'd be like, I had it. Thank button.

[A]

In fact, one time she was watching the show on tap in which is on watering Hole and she was like, oh my goodness. There was MF for this, an MF for that. And I said. And you act like you ain't never said an MF for before. She was like, well, I guess that's right.

[B]

Let me just.

[A]

Yeah, go on and eat your cereal and keep it moving.

[B]

Shout out to mama.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, but no, I mean you deserve, deserve to be in that room. You had an amazing year. And it is very clear that it is not even really the beginning.

[B]

Nah. Facts.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Because even when I went to the. I'm gonna tell you, by the time I went to tap in which is on the waterhole media, when I walked in that room, I was like, this is my shit. You Know what I mean? Like, I just felt it like that was around because there would be episodes that I would have. Well, I would call Big Cat, like, bro, was that even good? He'd be like, bro, you're killing it.

[A]

Like, right?

[B]

And I'm like, nah, right? We might have to re record. He was like, if we got to re record, I'm not gonna be there. Because I'm not.

[A]

I'm not dealing with this because, like, you did it.

[B]

You did it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He was like, what if it does suck?

[A]

Right? So what? Do it, do it again and it'll be. Yeah.

[B]

You know what I'm saying?

[A]

And I think that's the thing, right? It's like, even Kurt, Seth Curry misses a shot, they lose games. Like champions are made better when they don't think they have their best performance, but they go back and put in

[B]

more work, do it anyway. Yeah.

[A]

That's what gets you in a room like that. And it has been very clear that week after week after week after week, you were like, just.

[B]

I was down.

[A]

This was. This was. This was your profession.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

This was your. You know what I mean? And so I think for the first time in my life, that night I felt like I was in my full whole self.

[B]

You were killing it, I'm not gonna lie. First of all, the dress.

[A]

Listen.

[B]

Second of all, I had my eye

[A]

on that dress for nine months before I even knew the route was for sale. I was like, I love this dress and I don't know where I'm gonna wear it. And then when I thought about, I was like, I'm getting this dress.

[B]

I would say this. I love the environment. I loved how welcoming it was, how organized it was. There were no gaps. Everything just worked.

[A]

That's from the White House, though. My time at the White House, you

[B]

know what I'm telling you, I was like, nah, this. Everything she's done up until now translates directly to this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Even it being like a low lit room and very like.

[A]

I mean. Well, I will say we brought together a team. Team here, Sister Jackie, who like, first of all, like the rollout.

[B]

Yeah. Let's never leave out Miss Jackie.

[A]

Listen, Jackie will have you with Gail on the Breakfast Club, Tamron hall and Whoopi on the same day. And you'll be like, is this my life? I'm like, I can't breathe. I can't breathe. This is too. It's overwhelming. You know what I mean?

[B]

There's very, you know, networking. Things are often fluff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oftentimes it's A handshake. It's a phone number exchange that you're never gonna use.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I met Miss Jackie, I was like, I'm gonna hear, oh, lucky.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

I was like. I could just feel that energy. Like, yeah, she gonna call me tomorrow.

[A]

Well, I didn't even know I was coming on this show. Like, she did this without me knowing, because she's like, no. She just. So shout out to, yeah, Miss Jackie.

[B]

Oh, we all need a Jackie.

[A]

We all need a Jackie O. No, but I like that room there. So I said all that. That to say, like, we had a great team. I don't want to ever pretend like, I'm the face, but there is, like, absolutely lots of support behind. But I was like, this has to feel special. First of all, 2025 was right. And I want. One of the things I've learned over the last couple of years is two things can be true at the same time, even though they conflict with one another. So the world can be in shambles, and you can still have fun.

[B]

Oh, well, okay. So here's the thing. This is a great POV for people to frame themselves in. For me, as the Great Depression is happening, so is the Harlem Renaissance.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So this is. This is the antithesis.

[A]

This is it.

[B]

Living in two worlds.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

As black people, period.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Right. Oftentimes, the world is always burning.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Sometimes we're in a control burn.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Sometimes it's a complete wildfire.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And no matter where, black people are trying to figure it out.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know what I mean? And I think the idea of the Harlem Renaissance being in the Great Depression doesn't make sense, because it's like. It's too.

[A]

It just feels like, how can they both exist? How. And they can't. And.

[B]

And here's the thing is at the Cotton Club.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And the dust bowl is happening.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You dig what I'm saying?

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So I think that we always have had a power of, like, perseverance. And if you look at where we started, I mean, what.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, there is no American history without.

[A]

Without us.

[B]

So I think that this is why, for me, after the election, I told Big Cat, I said. I said, if we ever gonna show up, it's now.

[A]

It's now.

[B]

Because what they got going on ain't what we got going on. And we are here to speak to and for our people. And in this moment, it's when it matters the most. Because people are gonna lose hope.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People are gonna get lost in narratives. People are gonna. There's a lot of identity issues that are happening.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it's all happening at once, and we have to navigate all that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And for me, it had felt like, man, I've been waiting my whole life just for this moment.

[A]

Exactly. We always ask, like, well, what would we have been done if we were born into slavery? Or what would we do if we were in the civil rights movement? Well, what would you be done if you were born in now, now?

[B]

What would you do now?

[A]

Do your thing that you're supposed to be doing.

[B]

I would have been doing this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I would have had to go and hide him.

[A]

Yes. Yes. Well, like, you know.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I think when. With the acquisition, it was like, people. Some people were like, are you sure you want to do this now? And I'm like, if not now, then who better?

[B]

And honestly, I think the thing is, is that something like that needs a new energy, and it needs an energy that understands the now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you look at that list, that list is the now, and it's always. And it's also showing a great reverence to the people who are tenured in black. I know you.

[A]

I know. I really thought that. What I wanted that list. Well, people kept saying to me on the team, well, what do you want people to feel that night? And I said, I want them to eat and drink as much as they want. Like, my dad's rule was like, you never run out of food and alcohol at a party ever. So eat and drink as much and eat well and drink well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Number one, great music, right? I actually want. I actually want people to dance.

[B]

I'm. Keep it real. When I saw. I told Big Cat this, I was like, they got Dougie Fresh. And I'm thinking like a young toon like Dougie Fresh. Like, rock. Cause I'm. I'm a like it. Dougie Fish's peak. I am in Pampers. You understand what I'm saying? I was born in 1990.

[A]

Oh, my God. My heart just stopped. You are a baby.

[B]

So you see what I'm saying, right? Oh, my God. So at the peak of Dougie Fresh, I am in Pampers. And so I'm like, dougie Fresh. And then he went on. I said, oh, this nigga do this. This is what he does. I was like, oh, I'm rocking, bro. Cause I was on some like, man, I don't slide up out of here. And then I started Listening. I'm like, no, I'm actually.

[A]

Well, that was the other thing, getting

[B]

back to the dance, right?

[A]

I was like, I want people to stay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't want people to drop in. I want them to have feel seen, feel love, feel joy and feel lighter when they leave.

[B]

Check, check, check, check, check, check.

[A]

Like, feel lighter. Cuz the world will be heavy, but we can float for a little bit in here.

[B]

We was in our own world. We was in our own world and it was amazing.

[A]

And we were floating. But yeah, I was just like, we need to have fun. And I don't want to forget there have been people who've been doing it for a really long time and are still doing it really, really well. And if they did it well in the last year, we're gonna put them on the list.

[B]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think it was amazing. It was, it was. Honestly, I. I went to so many events. It was clearly the standout for me. And it. And it came in tandem with something, you know what?

[A]

What? Yeah, we planned it in nine weeks, no venue, and we did.

[B]

You know what my week was like? Do you know what that week was for me?

[A]

No.

[B]

I literally Route 100. Woke up the next day. Breakfast Club. Yeah.

[A]

And then you had your show.

[B]

Yes. And then. No. Well, woke up the next day, did Breakfast Club. Woke up the day after that. Went and seen a billboard with my face on it and then had my show. I have a bill. I had a billboard in Times Square. It was the craziest three days of my life.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

I was like, nigga, this is wild, mother.

[A]

I made it.

[B]

I was like, I am here. Do you hear me? I'm in New York, baby. I'm home alone.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? It was crazy. So, like in the timing of everything, it was just like. I knew it was like this. Everything in my life is meant to

[A]

be, meant to be.

[B]

Because it couldn't have happened better, you know what I mean? In that flow.

[A]

In that flow.

[B]

I was in my yogi, you know what I mean? My breath was in control.

[A]

You were in it. It was like in, through the nose, out to the nose, that part,

[B]

you know, before we go. I know you gotta leave in a bit. Let's talk to the people one time about watering hole media, Grits and Eggs podcast, and the importance of independent black media in this time that we live in.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think that somebody is going to tell our story. Somebody's gonna tell it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So why not it be us?

[B]

For sure.

[A]

And I think that that is what we're trying to do at Watering home media. There are only so many chairs at CNN on, you know, certain shows and certain panels. But there with the Internet now, there are so many more opportunities and so many more voices that need to be heard. And so we are really trying to give platforms to people to have the conversations that do not exploit black culture or black people, but provide an opportunity for folks to think about things in different ways, interrogate how they are approaching things, and also have a good time. Right. Like, you can do all of that. And I'm like, just think about your reunion card table, or you're, you know, the spades table. You play with your homies or if you play or whatever.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or you're. You're in the basement watching the game and, you know, or the barber shop or for the girls. It's like when we're on in the group chat or we're having wine night or, you know, so it's just like it's being able to have those conversations. I really. We always say black people are not a monolith, but we often make people operate monolithically.

[B]

We also get a little scared when things are outside the.

[A]

Right, Right. And even sometimes I'll watch it. I'll be like, okay. But it's like, let it flow.

[B]

Yeah, let it.

[A]

Let it flow. Like, that's. Everyone has a right to say what they want to say.

[B]

The diversity of thought that we need to have.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. Oftentimes, diversity looks like contrarianism, but that's not.

[A]

That's not diversity.

[B]

We kind of. We kind of like, like it. Blur those lines sometimes. But those are two completely different things. I'm not talking about a black contrarian.

[A]

No.

[B]

I'm talking about somebody from a different walk of life.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Different experience with the same end goal in mind. How do we navigate? How do we get there? Also, I will say this watering hole tap in podcast is a great PR for black men because we oftentimes have terrible social media pr. Terrible, terrible. You know what I mean? We don't represent ourselves so well. We're not thinking about our relation to the public. And I think that a lot of us are trying to usher in a new guard of what it means to be a black man. How we carry ourselves and the things that we have lived in, the effects of are, of course, street culture. And a lot of us are trying to get out of that and move into an intelligent movement. That has literally been our lineage here and there. There. There's A dire need for a return. There's a desperation for a return. And your platform is doing a great job of highlighting that. You know, having me on there with Phil and Mandela and Manny the La Manny.

[A]

Like, that's such. Even just that table.

[B]

Yes, man.

[A]

Even just the geography of that table.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Florida, Atlanta, Louisiana, Wisconsin.

[B]

Yeah. And of course, naturally, there are going to be some parallels, but there's. And also, you know, podcast host, organizer, politician, comedian.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, having Joshua Dawson there, let me say.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Big fan.

[A]

Well, let me tell you, the people want you and das to have a conversation about faith.

[B]

I would love to. So we're.

[A]

We're.

[B]

We're.

[A]

We want to plot and seam and get that to happen because. Because we've been having some. You know, surprisingly, 2025 became the conversation about the black church and black faith.

[B]

And then Drew Ski's recent skit has lit that up.

[A]

Lit it up.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And we have some commentary. So it's. It's a. It's a timely conversation. You know, Christian Smith, I love. I don't know him, but I love.

[B]

If you need him, let me know.

[A]

We want. We want Christian on.

[B]

I can give him a call before he leaves.

[A]

I would love that. I think. Think what he is doing is more than necessary. And if we. If I could clone him, I would.

[B]

When I had. When I had my Antichrist controversy, just because I told people to have reverence for their ancestors, now I'm the Antichrist.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then I showed back up in the devil mask. And then.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And then I had him on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The next episode. I was like, man, my life is so crazy. I cannot plan this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I can't plan it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I'm a troll at heart. If you wanna, like, you want to call me a name, let's lean in. Okay. I'm the devil. Guess who's gonna show up.

[A]

Right. Right.

[B]

What if we show up in a trump suit with double mask on? But I think for me, it's like, also, too. I ain't shaken by that, because I believe in what I'm saying. I'm not saying it because I think it's gonna get clicks.

[A]

Right. It's like, you have to believe it.

[B]

No, no, no. I'm here with it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, so, of course, anything you need, I'm there.

[A]

And I will say you said that from the first conversation to this moment now. And it hasn't been that many months between, but I will tell you, you probably have shown up in more ways in a short amount of Period than some people who have been in my life longer amounts of periods. And that just speaks to who you are. And one of the things about Watering Hole and particularly Tap in is that we want the. The people on that show also to feel safe and not just do it for clicks.

[B]

Yeah. You remember when I was going to say, like, I was going to say something crazy and I was like, no, I'm not going to say that. Y' all was like, nah, get it off.

[A]

Oh, I was, I wasn't there that.

[B]

But it was a billionaire bowl idea.

[A]

Oh, right. I was like. And I watched that and I was like, okay. Like, okay, okay, okay. I do remember that. And I was like, really, guys? Nice. Really? But we put, you know, it was like.

[B]

But people loved it.

[A]

People loved it. Yeah.

[B]

It started a different conversation.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I, I'm. I'm very aware of these things and how I frame them because I know what conversation I want to have, but I know the fun way to enter.

[A]

To enter it. Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And I don't. You know, people always say, like, you say what you, you, you lean in and people always say. We're like, well, how do you do that on CNN is like. Cause when I'm speaking on cnn, I mean every single word.

[B]

Yeah. There ain't no. This isn't a.

[A]

This isn't a talking point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is coming from my gut. Coming like a download, you know, like a spiritual download. It's like, this is. This has to be said.

[B]

Yeah. You're a force when you're up there too. I will say some.

[A]

Everyone, every quarter I got like, pop out a little bit like, you know, and be like, woo. That just happened.

[B]

I will say this for Water and Hall all of your guests who have at YouTube pages. From this point forward, you should send them collaborative requests on YouTube.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because it'll get them. It'll get your page to their audiences as well. YouTube. Excellent. When. Since they did that. Because now it brings all the audiences to one. Yeah, yeah. And now you're not fighting the algorithm.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

You're kind of generating your own.

[A]

That's right. That's right. Dope. See? Always helping the people.

[B]

Yeah, for sure, man. Thank you so much for coming.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

I wish we could have talk long.

[A]

I know. I'll come back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'll come back.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Without a doubt.

[A]

When it's not 29 degrees outside.

[B]

Yeah. Friend of the show, you know, friend of the show. Open door.

[A]

Long time listener, first time caller.

[B]

That part. Thank you. If you have anything that you want to plug or you know, just ig handle things that you got coming up, things that you want people to be aware of. This is your you.

[A]

Okay, well make sure you go to the root.com. follow us on Instagram, tick tock and YouTube. We have so many more exciting things coming out. Commentary, video, new podcast coming out on the platform. And then also check out watering home media and tap in Ashley Island.

[B]

Ashley. Allison.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know. I was thinking about Paul Allen from American Psycho. For whatever reason. Interesting New York things, but also it starts ruminating.

[A]

At least you didn't call me Allison because everybody calls me that and that's like my biggest pet peeve.

[B]

No, no, no. Ashley.

[A]

Ashley.

[B]

The Ashley.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

This is episode 100 and something. We'll see you next time.

[A]

My God.

[B]

Which is Raps. I just want to rap. They say without the proper labor, faith don't stand a chance. I put my faith in faith and stand on fertile land I planted seeds at the indeed turning the trees before Rest in peace tease get printed to me Big cat.

[A]

Yo yo.

[B]

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[A]

Love.

[B]

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