Grits and Eggs Podcast — Episode 125: Deray McKesson

Date: February 27, 2026
Host: Deante’ Kyle
Guest: Deray McKesson (Activist, educator, co-founder of Campaign Zero)

Episode Overview

In this deep, unfiltered conversation, Deante’ Kyle welcomes civil rights activist and Campaign Zero co-founder Deray McKesson for a raw discussion on mass incarceration, police violence, how everyday people can influence policy, the structure and consequences of law enforcement systems like ICE and Border Patrol, and why mundane-sounding policy questions actually shape real lives and society. They swap personal stories and practical insights, break down major misconceptions about the criminal justice system, and highlight the tangible changes that communities can make together if they understand how the parts fit.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

[00:43] Introductions & Background

• Deray’s Journey: Former 6th grade math teacher and chief of human capital in Minneapolis and Baltimore school systems. Got involved in protest work after the police killing of Mike Brown in Ferguson, transitioning from education to activism.
• "My kids, the kids I taught are 30 now, which is crazy. I taught 18 years ago." — Deray [03:34]
• Deray details how his entry into activism was organic, fueled by his perspective as an educator.

[05:25] Realizing the Scale of Police Violence

• Both discuss how public perception of police violence shifted after high-profile cases like Trayvon Martin, Mike Brown, and others.
• "They just like, killing us like this." — Host [06:30]
• Deray breaks news that 2025 was the first year in six years with a reduction in police killings, using his team’s data at Mapping Police Violence [06:36].

[07:47] What is ICE — New Tools of State Violence

• Host discusses growing awareness of militarized police forces in the US, especially ICE, as agents of state-sanctioned violence.
• Deray: “ICE today is just bigger and has more power than we’ve ever seen.” [09:22]
• Explains how ICE’s ability to buy property, expand offices, and operate with impunity mark a dangerous shift.

[10:05] Policy Pop Quiz: Defining a Gang

• Policy as Improv: Engaging quiz on how many people constitute a "gang" for sentencing enhancements (most states say 3, which both agree is far too low).
• Deray: "There’s no study on this. Three is not it … somebody is making up the number. Either we do it, or some rich old white people do it." [14:28]
• They discuss how arbitrary policy numbers get set, and how community perspective should shape these decisions.

[15:22] Loss, Motivation, and the Fight Against Mass Incarceration

• How Deray’s commitment stems from proximity to families and communities devastated by police violence.
• "My commitment for as long as I’m here will be to take away all the crazy stuff ... that made mass incarceration mass." — Deray [15:22]

[17:24] Making Policy Accessible

• Deray emphasizes the role of organizers: to make complex statutes decipherable for everyday people.
• "I think I can walk in, like the gang thing, and go to a legislator: ‘Hey, I know you’re worried about looking pro-gang. I know three’s crazy. Can we work on a bill together?’" [34:59]
• Everyday people may not realize it, but they can and do shape policy: “If you even send a poorly written email to me about an issue, it super matters.” [35:50]

[32:54] The Realities and Loopholes of Jail and Prison

• Host shares personal experiences in jail, 23-and-1 lockdowns, the toxic impact on mental health, and the trap of "pay to stay" policies (charging people for their incarceration).
• Deray: “In every state but two, it’s legal to charge people room and board for their incarceration in some way.” [36:05]
• Discussion of the blurred lines between jails and prisons, and the often-mistaken belief that most incarceration takes place in private facilities (it doesn’t—the overwhelming majority are run by governments).

[46:51] Policy Touches Everyone, Even If You Don’t Notice

• Deante’ reflects on how he realized, through this conversation, that he already engages with policy every day, even as a community member and parent.
• Both discuss teaching their own kids about navigating systems, staying out of trouble, and how culture pushes young Black men toward criminalization.

[52:42] What Actually Drives Mass Incarceration?

• Debunking common myths: Drug offenses receive media attention, but the largest segment of state prison is violent crime. "You could let all those people out and it doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of incarceration." — Deray [53:13]
• They discuss why the focus needs to be broader: "If we're not honest about the problem … more than half of the state prison is violence" [54:40]

[58:49] Rethinking Crime and Punishment

• Deante’ argues for consequences that foster understanding and changing behavior, not just punishment. Mandatory participation in social programs could be more effective for nonviolent theft than prison.
• "I don't think you should go to prison for stealing … there should be more people like me involved in that [policy] because this is not a violent crime." — Host [58:34]

[67:38] The Power of Policy Numbers

• Many policies (parole eligibility, sentencing, gang enhancements) are based on arbitrary numbers set by lawmakers, not by science.
• Deray: “This is not some sign—he sat in a room and said five is what he thought he'd get the votes for. This is not like ...” [67:48]
• The decision whether parole exists in a state, how long sentences must be, and thresholds for felony charges are all open to community input and pressure.

[75:05] New Data on Police Killing Patterns

• Deray shares a preview of his not-yet-public annual police violence report:
  • Median age of Black people killed by police: 33, White: 40+.
  • Cities like Orlando, St. Louis, and several in Florida have the worst rates.
  • Some agencies killed only Black people in 2025, even where Black residents are the minority.
  • Largest decreases in police killings: Small states like Rhode Island, New Jersey. Largest increase: DC, New Mexico.
  • "Police kill three people a day, by the way." — Deray [78:01]
  • Host: "Why police shouldn't be killing people." [78:13]

[89:44] Incarceration’s Impact on Black Wealth

• Deray shares data showing how Black Americans who experience incarceration flatline in wealth accumulation, directly tying mass incarceration to the racial wealth gap.
  • "If we don’t end mass incarceration, we can never close the racial wealth gap." — Deray [89:44]
  • "The more time I've spent not going to jail, the more money I made." — Host [90:03]

[93:45] Rethinking Police Functions

• Deray and Deante’ discuss separating armed police from nonviolent functions.
  • Only 5% of 911 calls are for violent crime.
  • "Do you need a person with a gun to tell a 10-year-old to stop yelling? ... Or to tell you your tail light’s out?" — Deray [93:22]
  • Propose using "traffic enforcement" or unarmed officers for traffic stops—backed by distinct signals (e.g., purple lights), less escalation.

[99:14] Exposing School Zone Sentencing Enhancements

• Drug-free school zones: Most people don’t realize that these laws create massive enhanced sentencing maps, blanketing entire neighborhoods.
  • "Most zones are 1,000 to 1,500 feet—29 square blocks." — Deray [101:05]
  • In Alabama, the zone is three miles around every school and public housing, meaning almost any offense can qualify for automatic upgrades.
  • Policy explorable via their new website (soon to be public).

[112:50] Teaching Kids and Communities Their Rights

• Deante’ advocates for practical laws-and-rights education for youth, to prevent petty arrests and record-building over minor infractions.
  • Cost of being convicted far outweighs the supposed benefit or profit from many small-time crimes.

[113:01] Ending Mass Incarceration as Economic Justice

• As financial literacy initiatives grow, Deray and Deante’ both stress that nothing will move the needle as much as ending mass incarceration itself—since its economic impacts are crushing.

Notable Quotes

• "There’s no good idea that’s ever changed the world that didn’t start in a living room, a basement, or a porch." — Deray [20:59]
• "Most people think [policy] is scientific, but it’s people’s values showing up in a room and saying, here’s what I think is right." — Deray [19:13]
• "If you even send a poorly written email to me about an issue, it super matters. Cause people don’t do that anymore. So 25 is a crisis in my district." — Deray [35:50]
• "If we don’t close mass incarceration, we can never close the racial wealth gap." — Deray [89:44]
• "Do you need a person with a gun to tell you your taillight’s out? We can’t keep sending people with guns to every problem." — Deray [93:45]
• "The violence is fucking crazy. ... More than half of the state prison is violence." — Host [54:43]
• "ICE is a new thing – my elementary school is older than ICE." — Deray [84:49]
• "You make these things very tangible and concrete." — Host on Deray’s work [107:25]

Memorable Moments

• Live Data Reveal: Deray shares embargoed, cutting-edge data from Campaign Zero and Mapping Police Violence. [Multiple Segments]
• Interactive School Zone Map: Host and guest explore how "drug-free school zones" practically blanket entire cities, enhancing penalties for thousands unnecessarily. [99:14]
• Personal Reflection: Deante’ opens up about his own time in jail and navigating re-entry, underscoring how system design pushes and traps people. [32:54–42:08]
• Conversation on Policy as Everyday Life: Host’s realization that policy isn’t abstract, but something everyone shapes—even at the kitchen table. [46:51]
• Quizzes & Learning: Deray runs the host through real-world policy "pop quizzes," highlighting how arbitrary legislative decisions (gang size, school zone area, theft value) concretely impact lives.[10:05, 53:57, 99:14]

Key Timestamps

• 03:27–04:43: Deray’s background and fateful journey to activism via Ferguson.
• 06:36–07:55: The power and importance of Mapping Police Violence; exclusive new report preview.
• 10:05–14:28: Defining a “gang” in law—why it matters more than you think.
• 15:22–16:31: Motivation behind Campaign Zero; activism as a response to structural loss.
• 32:54–40:33: Jail and prison realities, especially under pandemic lockdowns.
• 53:13–54:43: Data: Why mass incarceration isn’t “just drugs”—it’s violence, and we need to be honest.
• 75:05–78:13: Exclusive data on police violence, race, age, and geography.
• 84:36–85:53: ICE’s structure and history; why its powers have expanded.
• 89:44–91:45: The flattening effect of incarceration on Black wealth.
• 99:14–107:25: School zones, sentencing enhancements, and interactive policy maps.

How to Connect

• Deray on Twitter: @deray
• Instagram: @iamderay
• Campaign Zero: https://www.joincampaignzero.org/
• Mapping Police Violence: https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/
• Check soon for: zerozones.org and inpaytostay.org (interactive legal/policy tools)

Conclusion

Deray and Deante’ break down complex topics into street-level, relatable reality: Policies that shape mass incarceration, police violence, and even the wealth gap are decided in rooms by people who could be influenced by everyday voices; the conversations we have at home really matter. The episode is a toolkit for anyone looking to transform communities—and themselves—into active, empowered policy-makers.

"If you get nothing else from this, know you can—and should—have a say in policy. The world gets better when more of us do."

Listen, learn, and get involved—because change starts in your kitchen, your group text, and your block.