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- [00:00]
Host
The new year is officially here, which means I'm getting serious about resetting my home and getting back into an at home routine that I actually love. And if I'm going to be in my space every day, it needs to feel cozy, functional and cute. And Wayfair makes that refresh super easy. From bedding and mattresses to storage solutions for every room, Wayfair is basically a one stop shop for your entire home. And if your living room needs a little glow up, you can refresh it with accent pillows, mirrors and faux plants for way less than you would expect. This year I really want my home to feel organized, calm and put together. And Wayfair makes that possible across every space. Whether it's refreshing kids rooms to get them back on track this year, or home decor for a full seasonal reset, work from home or study setups like desk office chairs and bookcases, Wayfair literally has everything you need to get your home ready for the season. One of the best parts is how easy it is to shop. Wayfair's huge selection makes it simple to find exactly what fits your style and your budget. Honestly, I'm surprised by how much they carry. It really feels like you can find everything in one place without hopping in between stores now. Big cat, yo. You see me, I got them new couches. Yeah. The boneless. Yeah, yeah. You just unpack them, roll them out. Expansion.
- [01:21]
Deray McKesson
Get enough for a cat nap.
- [01:22]
Host
Yeah, yeah. Oh and, and you know the earth tones in the building. Yeah, yeah. We go faux green couch with a little toffee accent couch. Oh, it looks nice.
- [01:31]
Deray McKesson
Yeah.
- [01:32]
Host
We ready for the new year?
- [01:33]
Deray McKesson
Good aesthetics.
- [01:35]
Host
But more than anything, I love how it looks in my home. It's functional, cute and it makes my space feel more put together. It honestly makes being at home feel more comfortable, more elevated and more like me. If you're resetting your space this year, Wayfair is a great place to start, get organized, refreshed and back on track this new year for way less. And head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every single style, every home.
- [02:13]
Deray McKesson
Yay.
- [02:15]
Host
Woke up in the morning and to God be the glory Thankful for another day to tell my story Put my opinions in the universe and let them orbit I'm from the dirty south with
- [02:26]
Deray McKesson
a dirty mouth might need orbit Ms.
- [02:28]
Host
Thang Thang things on me like a Norbit had to refuse them cause my no rest fusion gorgeous as I doubt My sons up and kiss my daughter forehead. Tell them we gonna get this money to my pockets. Morbid.
- [02:40]
Deray McKesson
Remember living in apartments now we playing Mortgage.
- [02:44]
Host
Because I, I, we've been in here and we've talked to people for like 30 minutes, and they'd be like, nigga, are we recording? It's like, yeah, yeah, we've been. We got all that.
- [02:53]
Deray McKesson
You know what I'm saying?
- [02:54]
Host
So I always try to at least, at least let people know a little bit because, you know, sometimes they get started talking a little candid, he'd be like, I ain't with that. I ain't want that on the show. I was just talking shit regular, you know what I'm saying? But, yeah, man, this is episode 100 and something. We don't know when this comes out. You know what I mean? We just, we knock him out. It's kind of become a signature thing. Thank you, thank you. We have, you know, civil rights activists, like somebody that's really Boots on the ground, nigga, you know what I'm saying? Blue vest pulled up, you know what I mean? Patagonia, man.
- [03:28]
Deray McKesson
Same vest. Same vest, yeah.
- [03:29]
Host
You are also a former educator or administrator?
- [03:33]
Deray McKesson
Both. Yep. I taught 6th grade math in East New York. Brooklyn. My kids, the kids I taught are 30 now, which is crazy. I taught 18 years ago. Sixth grade math was the best. And then I was the chief of human capital for the school system in Baltimore. So we had 200 schools, 10,000 employees. I managed everything to deal with adults.
- [03:50]
Host
And then you've also published. You have some published articles as well.
- [03:54]
Deray McKesson
So I have a book that came out in 16, and then articles and stuff around here. And I was in Minneapolis. I led Human Capital in Minneapolis before when Mike Brown got killed. So, like, I was living in Minneapolis. I was in charge of staffing schools in the district. So I hired everybody except for the superintendent. That was my team. And then Mike Brown got killed, and I left Minneapolis and went to Ferguson.
- [04:15]
Host
Yeah, I know. I read that. That's what kind of got you early on with bl.
- [04:21]
Deray McKesson
Yeah, it was because I was a teacher. Because I was like, if something happened to my kids, I would at least go for the weekend.
- [04:26]
Host
Like, if I can't go, at least go holl at.
- [04:29]
Deray McKesson
And then I got tear gas the second night in St. Louis, and I was like, okay, this is crazy. So I was like, I'm gonna stay another day. I'm gonna stay another day. And then 400 days later, the protest.
- [04:37]
Host
Yeah, well, hold on. We're gonna get better. That D Ray McKesson is in the building.
- [04:41]
Deray McKesson
It's good to be here.
- [04:42]
Host
Yeah, man. Thank you for coming, man. Damn. So you go more so in the form. This is not your first protest, though.
- [04:52]
Deray McKesson
It really is.
- [04:53]
Host
It is.
- [04:54]
Deray McKesson
I was a youth organizer when I was a kid. When I was, like, 14. I've only really had jobs as organizers even when I was a kid. So we did stuff in community. We would go and do policy stuff. I was on the student council, the state student council, the county student council, my school student council. But it wasn't until my ground got killed that I was like, oh, this is what it means to stand in the street. And that whole. I had no clue. And. And I also didn't know the police kill people. Like, I knew we should be nervous about the police and not be crazy, but I just didn't know at all how big the problem was until Ferguson.
- [05:26]
Host
Yeah, I'm in the same kind of, like, I've always seen police violence in a way, like, where it was a little up close, but it wasn't to that extent. It would be more aggressive, like, agitating situations or just escalated situations that didn't need to be escalated. But, like, in the neighborhood, it's just more so, like, I just felt like they was trying to throw their weight around. And of course, you would hear about people, like, being killed by the police or. It's such an isolated situation. Before Trayvon, it was such an isolated situation that, like, the only thing you think about is, like, Rodney King and then, of course, like, Sean Bell, things like that. But the media still had control over the narrative, so there's always, like, from the public, especially, like, I'm maybe. I think at the time of Mike Brown, I was 24, 23, 24. So I'm really young, and I'm, like, still kind of deconstructing America, so to speak. And then it was like, Mike Brown, Alton Sterling, Trayvon. All these things happened back to back. I was like, hold on, nigga. Like, they just, like, killing us like this.
- [06:37]
Deray McKesson
It's. It's wild. You know, it'll. By the time this episode comes out, we will have released. But I'll tell you now, because we know, okay, is 2025 is the first year in six years where the police will have killed less people than the year before. We manage the only database of police killings in the country. So we have a team that wakes up every morning to log who got killed the day before.
- [06:55]
Host
Mapping police violence.
- [06:56]
Deray McKesson
Mapping police violence, Yes. I actually have a copy of the report that has not come out yet for you?
- [07:00]
Host
Oh, that's hard.
- [07:02]
Deray McKesson
But we learn a ton. You know, we know the number of cities that have only killed black people. We know the top 10 agencies that killed the most people we can now actually identify because we have like 11 years of data. We can identify the neighborhoods that are most deadly for people. So, like, we did a map of Chicago and we can show you, like, the. The city council districts where you are more likely to be killed by a police officer than not. Because we just have the data now, which is. Which is important. But it is wild that we are the only people left doing it. The Washington Post used to do it. They stopped in January. The federal government never really did it, but we have a team that does it every day.
- [07:34]
Host
Yeah, I think it. If you can map it at that level, it is. It does. It gives, like, a feeling of warfare to it, right?
- [07:47]
Deray McKesson
Absolutely.
- [07:47]
Host
Yeah. So I was curious to see what. Of course I know you have thoughts about ice, but you got to see, like, firsthand militarized police in Baltimore and in Ferguson. This was the first time that I was aware of how militarized the police were. And it's like, hold on. Well, this shouldn't be deployed against us, like US Citizens. This gets a little weird. And then you see ICE is like the 2.0 version of that. This is like state sanctioned violence, Black, even more impunity, even more agitation. Literally kidnapping people. Like, no precinct to take them back to, if that makes sense. Like, no paperwork to fill out. So it's not like a. Like their job is literally to agitate and kill the public.
- [08:38]
Deray McKesson
That's not about immigration at all.
- [08:39]
Host
No, it's not. Let's stop. We have to stop that narrative. So I think we're about 12 years removed from the start of your career in activism. How do you. How do you feel about ICE and like, what's the situation and what has your conversations been around that?
- [08:55]
Deray McKesson
So when we think about the federal government, there are just a. There's a small set of agencies, but they're really big. So we got border patrol, we got the DEA, we got the ATF, we got ICE. And then we think about the 15, 16,000 local police departments, which is where we spend most of our work. ICE has historically just been constrained by the resources. Right. They didn't own a lot of property, so ICE used to rent out local prisons and jails, which is an activist we could sort of manage because we could just go to city council being like, don't run out that. That wing of the jail to ice, Right? The new version of ice. Like, they're buying property, they have more offices they never had. So I think everybody's sort of trying to figure out, like, how do we reign in ICE in this moment? Because the ICE today is just bigger and has more power than we've ever seen ice happen. But before I go there, one of the things that I've learned, and this is what I. The gift I'm going to give you is I have a deeper appreciation for, like, structures. I'm like, oh, this all exists because there's a set of rules, policies and practices that make it happen. And I know you have an experience with incarceration yourself, so you understand it well. But we spend almost all of our time trying to figure out, like, what the structural stuff looks like. So because I will always be a 6th grade math teacher, this is a not so pop quiz, sort of.
- [10:06]
Host
Okay.
- [10:06]
Deray McKesson
So if you. You can choose any one of them for us to start. This is tough and we can start wherever you want. But they are all different topics. They're not all the same topic.
- [10:17]
Host
I mean, we could start with the first one. F. 31 states define gang as blank or more people. Choices are A, 3, B, 5, C, 7, D, 9. I know in Georgia it's 3.
- [10:30]
Deray McKesson
It's 3. So we have a campaign on gang enhancement. So there are 38 states that if you're in a gang, you get a special penalty. 31 of the 38 states say a gang is three or more people. You're like, that is.
- [10:40]
Host
Yeah, that's me and my sisters, though.
- [10:42]
Deray McKesson
That's crazy.
- [10:42]
Host
I have two sisters. So technically we gang banging as soon as we step up, though.
- [10:46]
Deray McKesson
So the question for you, and this is like a real question that we haven't figured out, is like, how big do you think a gang should be? This is like the work that we do trying to figure out, like the policy conversation about this. Three's too low. The highest in the country is six. D.C. there are two states that have no numbers. So the floor is two. But like, what would your. Like, how big, how big do you think we could win? Like, you gotta go in a room and convince people, how big do you think we could do?
- [11:13]
Host
Okay, so you have, for the most part, people are always gonna have their right hand man. Like, you came in with your guy. So that's so. Well, no, no, no. Okay, so. And then I come here with my guy. He's gonna come here with his guy, and then Rose will come here. So that's eight people just meeting in one space. Not necessarily gang activity, Just naturally how people move around the world. So I can't look at a group of eight and say, that's a game. I would think it would be more like 12 to 15.
- [11:47]
Deray McKesson
12 to 15?
- [11:47]
Host
Yeah.
- [11:48]
Deray McKesson
Okay. Do you think you could convince people 12 to 15?
- [11:50]
Host
Yeah, absolutely.
- [11:51]
Deray McKesson
And 15.
- [11:53]
Host
I can't. Cause you can't convince me of three.
- [11:55]
Deray McKesson
Yeah, I get that. Somebody said to me they thought it would be the amount of people that it would take two cars to get away.
- [12:02]
Host
Hmm.
- [12:03]
Deray McKesson
And I was like, that's interesting.
- [12:04]
Host
That's an interesting take. Just. It's more so. Cause I know how n move. Like, I know if I'm going somewhere, I'm going with somebody. You know what I mean? So we might just be four students, but we just bring, like, somebody for support or whatever the case may be, you know? I understand, like, optically, eight is a lot. No, no, I'm. This is a block. No, I'm working through this. Yeah, yeah. This is. Cause it's an interesting conversation that's never been asked before.
- [12:30]
Deray McKesson
Do you think you could give. I don't know if I can convince somebody of 15. I'm with you. That the numbers should be really high.
- [12:36]
Host
I think. I think 12. I think 12 is where I'm like.
- [12:40]
Deray McKesson
Cause somebody said to me. They were like. They were like. They think about this as the number of people that they would cross the sidewalk for if they saw them just congregating. And then another guy said to me, this legislator. Cause we're trying to. We are trying to change these laws. He was like, the number of people that if they were outside of a building, that I wouldn't go in the building.
- [12:59]
Host
I would say, yeah, but I'm open.
- [13:01]
Deray McKesson
This is real.
- [13:02]
Host
Yeah. Okay. 12 does seem hot. And if we think about it from those optics, because I think four white dudes together is that significant. I'm like, fuck these niggas.
- [13:14]
Deray McKesson
I think I can.
- [13:15]
Host
Especially if they all bald. Like, oh, shit. Oh, don't you. I think that you watch enough of this show. You know where you at?
- [13:22]
Deray McKesson
I think that I could convince people of seven for sure. Like, I feel like I got seven down.
- [13:27]
Host
I think with my logic, it may be eight.
- [13:32]
Deray McKesson
Okay.
- [13:33]
Host
Yeah, I think seven. Eight is a solid place because eight,
- [13:36]
Deray McKesson
you could do four and four. Two groups of four.
- [13:38]
Host
Yeah.
- [13:38]
Deray McKesson
Two groups of four is two cars.
- [13:40]
Host
Two cars. Two cars. Yeah, that makes sense. That actually does make sense.
- [13:43]
Deray McKesson
Two cars.
- [13:43]
Host
Cause you know what? You pulling up two cars deep to anywhere for that is, like, that would beg the question, like, you know, to go clubbing. I don't think so.
- [13:50]
Deray McKesson
We run programming at the juvenile jail in Cleveland. It is one of the only felony only facilities in the country. So 8 years old to 21 years old, most of the kids have been charged with a violent felony or felony. And I asked them this question and it was them who said two cars. They were like, deray.
- [14:06]
Host
No, that makes sense though. And they get it because, I mean, I know that shit too. I like, I know if, especially if we, like, if anybody was going to get in a fight, it's going to take two cars to get us there. You know what I mean? Especially we had to travel.
- [14:19]
Deray McKesson
So 8. I could, I could move to 8. I've normally been a 7 on this, but I think you've moved me to 8. I'm an 8.
- [14:25]
Host
I think 8. Yeah. 7.5.
- [14:28]
Deray McKesson
But this is why these conversations, you know, people, I meet people across the country who are like, what do we do to fix it? Right? And people feel like they are not equipped to do policy. But that is what you just did as a policy. That is a policy question. And it's either like we make up the number or some rich old white people make up the number, but somebody's making up the number. You know what I mean?
- [14:47]
Host
Yeah.
- [14:47]
Deray McKesson
And three is too low.
- [14:49]
Host
Yeah. Well, the thing is, is if I'm thinking about it from that perspective, one black person is enough to make white people nervous. So then three is like, holy shit, what are these three niggas doing? You know what I'm saying? So I think, yeah, that was another thing that I wanted to talk to you about. I'm glad you brought that up. To go from education into activism. And where's the decision? Where, how do you make the decision? Like, okay, I'm gonna pivot and do this full time. How do you make that decision? I, I have a follow up question after this.
- [15:23]
Deray McKesson
Yeah. I think I have been around so much loss and death as a result of this. And that's why we call it campaign zero. Is that like, I was like, I will do whatever I can to make sure nobody ever has to experience this again. Like, that was my commitment to the work. And after being at so many funerals, like being on so many families that have lost people to the police, I was like, oh, this isn't like a phenomenon. This isn't. This, this isn't happening, like randomly. There are structural things that allow the police to do this stuff with no consequence. And that mass incarceration becomes mass because of things like this gang thing or drug free school zones, all these things that like, we can undo. So I was like, you know, my commitment for as long as I'm here will be to like take away all the crazy stuff. Like I can undo the system. The next set of people, I won't be able to do this, but the next set of people will build the good thing. I don't think I'll be here for that, but I can like claw back all of the things that like made mass incarceration mass. And that was what I was like. I know systems well. I worked in school systems and sort of a system is a system. And I was like, I'm a good enough storyteller that I could like give people language and give people tools and I know policy well enough and I can build a good team around policy that we could help demystify things like this gang thing.
- [16:32]
Host
Right.
- [16:32]
Deray McKesson
And we could go to communities across the country and change them.
- [16:35]
Host
Yeah. Which leads me into like, how. What's the entry? Like what's the, I guess, ease of access, so to speak. How entry level is this for like the everyday person that feels like kind of hopeless to things like policy or organization? I think there's a lot of people online who talk about we need to organize, we need to do this. But like, this is a career for you at this point. This is something you've been doing, like I said 10 plus years and you didn't come into this questioning like, why can't I do it? You just like, what can I do? That was the mentality from what I'm hearing. And a lot of people seem like helpless to start. And what would be some like entry level ways that you think somebody could get like just an everyday person into organizing, into activism?
- [17:25]
Deray McKesson
So I think the organizer's job is to prepare, like to read all the state statutes and make it easy for people to understand. Da, da, da. That is what our team, there are 40 of us now and we spend a ton of time going through all 50 state statutes, city ordinances, to log the data and to put in a way that's usable. So the gang database stuff, it's like that team that's worked on that. We have looked at every statute around gang enhancements, we've coded them, we've done all this stuff and then our job is to queue it up in a way that people who don't spend a ton of time doing that can make really good policy decisions. So I think about this conversation we just had is like, there is no study that's gonna tell us the size of a gang. We know three is not it. Know that we can have way more people fight about what the right number should be and press legislatures to make it better. Like, that is work that a lot of people can actually be involved in. And there are a million of those things. All of the campaigns we have and some more that are in the folder are things that, like, you should actually have a position on and, like, a lot of people should have positions on, but they sort of take it for granted. They're just like, well, three is what it is. And you're like, no, no, three is.
- [18:30]
Host
Three is something they decided on. Like, we can decide on a different number, right?
- [18:33]
Deray McKesson
Yeah. There's a state that I won't put them on blast because we like them that it used to be three. They rewrote the law to do. To make. To increase penalties for gang members. They mistakenly deleted the number three. Like when they, when they rewrote the law, three just disappeared. So now it's no number which is even worse than three.
- [18:51]
Host
Yeah, that's terrible.
- [18:52]
Deray McKesson
So I called the legislator. I'm like, hey, you know, you worked on this bill. Did you know you deleted three? He's like, three had no clue. And you're like, you know, that's what's happening in legislatures. If you think it's like some, some mad geniuses, that's not what's happening.
- [19:04]
Host
No, this is everyday people.
- [19:06]
Deray McKesson
It's everyday people who sometimes make mistakes. So, like, their states that have 10 grams is legal because, like, how do we get to 10?
- [19:13]
Host
I'm.
- [19:14]
Deray McKesson
I'm talking to people. They're like, durae was just a whole number. And we knew we could get a whole number passed. This is not like, you know, the people making the policy decisions. This isn't some, like, scientific endeavor. It is people's value showing up in a room and saying, here's what I think is right.
- [19:28]
Host
And.
- [19:28]
Deray McKesson
And we wanna invite more people into that conversation.
- [19:31]
Host
Yeah, man. You know, I don't think I looked at it as simple as that, though it does seem I was talking about, like, friends and shit. Like, the most boring shit on TV was C Span. So it's like, this is where people's information about politics comes from. Every time I think about politics as a child, I'm thinking about C Span. Like, all these white people sit in this boring ass room and talk about bullshit. It's like, I don't want to see that. I want excitement. I need stimulation. And it's like, now that politics has become overly stimulating. It's like, it's the same effect. It's the extremes of, like, boring versus, like, overstimulation, where people just kind of like, I don't want anything to do with this at all. And now we're in a position where everything is politicized and you can't escape it. So it's like, if you're not going to engage in it, it's always engaging with you. And I think that I never viewed it as that simple, as something that's like, yeah, how many people constitutes a gang? And it's like, well, I have cousins, I have, like, siblings. I have friends like that they go everywhere. Like, it's them and they two best friends. And if you telling me that that's a gang, then no. But then we also can push back on that policy and just have these conversations, even if it was just in the house. Like, absolutely. You know what I'm saying? That is how people could get at least motivated to go and make policy change.
- [20:59]
Deray McKesson
Yeah. We say all the times that there's no good idea that's ever changed the world. That didn't start in a living room, a basement, or a porch.
- [21:04]
Host
Real.
- [21:05]
Deray McKesson
That is like, where it all started. So, you know, people see me on a cool podcast like this, or they see me giving a speech to a thousand people. It's like the first thing I did in Ferguson was make peanut butter jelly sandwiches in somebody's living room. That was like the first meeting I ever went to was we made PB&J sandwiches. That was it.
- [21:20]
Host
You know what I mean?
- [21:21]
Deray McKesson
But people don't see that part of it.
- [21:23]
Host
Yeah, I think it's. I think there's like a sin. People wanted to be sensational in that sense. Like, everything has to be the guy throwing the tear gas back. And for the most part, it's just like, people.
- [21:35]
Deray McKesson
It's just people. Even I. You know, you started out asking about ice. I won't get ahead of one of the questions. But the question about how do we end ICE is a policy question. So you're like, you know, if we can't zero out the budget, so we don't have the votes right now to just zero out the budget. Not because we don't believe it's possible. We just don't have the votes. What can we do to rein ICE in? There are a lot of cool things that we can do. We rolled out a plan called Tinta and ICE about it. But there's a question of how many officers, if you can't have zero ICE officers. How many are you okay with? That is a policy question. How big should the border be? There are all these concrete things that we should try and figure out that I want more people to feel empowered, because I get a lot of calls by ice, and people are just like. They're like, ice is bad. You're like, ice is bad. You know what I mean? Like, the police are crazy. But the question now is, like, what do we do about it? It's not, you know, 20, 14, 15, 16. I was on the news a lot telling people like, y', all the police are killing people. And it was like, a big deal that I would say something like that then. It's not a big deal. Everybody's saying that now. They don't need me to say that, you know?
- [22:32]
Host
Yeah. I think the states violence has been. The thing that I fear the most, is that black people have, like, a resentment towards the public right now because of how people speak about. It's like, nigga, what are you talking about? We've been saying this for, like, 10, 20 years. You know what I'm saying? However, long, way before Rodney King, way before, like, police state violence against black bodies has always been normalized. That's America. So I think that black people have, like, a certain resentment towards this newfound concern around police violence. And I think with it, with being with ice, it's like, anything goes with them. And I think that's the part that scares people the most. It's like, well, we kind of used to y' all just kind of zeroing in on these people. It's like, why y' all killing white folks? You know, that is like, what's going on in this realm? And I think for you, how is a way that somebody can not only get involved with your organization, but what can they learn from your organization if they wanted to start their own in this fight, not only against ice, but just against state violence in general.
- [23:49]
Deray McKesson
Yeah. So people should find their organizing home wherever. People don't have to do it with us. We're happy to. We make all our data public so that people can use our stuff and organize wherever they are. Like, that's a part of it. ICE is interesting because when people think about immigration, they don't think, like, black people don't think that it is their issue. Right. Some people are like, well, that's. You know, we want. We believe in fairness and justice, but this doesn't directly impact me in that way. But what I. What I'm always reminded of is that in the Face of white supremacy. Anybody not black is an immigrant. I mean, anybody not white is an immigrant. That part because to white supremacist, immigrant means that I can negotiate and decide your citizenship status. That is like what it means to a white supremacist. So when Trump is talking about denaturalizing people, like taking away people's legal immigration status, they are trying to do that to Native Americans. And then black people, you're like, how could you kick out a Native American? They were. You're like, but again, to white supremacists, anybody that's not white is an immigrant. Like, that is the way they think about it. You know what I mean?
- [24:43]
Host
Yeah. I love the Internet for how kind of they reword things. Cause I say that this is the term we're familiar with. White supremacy, white supremacy. And then they was like, well, it's actually just white delusion. And it's like, well, nigga, y' all onto something. Because white people would know how this start, this country started. They'll know their people came here from Ellis island, like, even, you know, all of these things. And then they'll be like, yeah, this is my country. It's like, what are you talking about? Like, how did you even get to the place where you really believe that?
- [25:15]
Deray McKesson
Right.
- [25:16]
Host
And then the people that existed here hundreds and hundreds of years before you and thousands before them. Yeah. Now this is like, they're not citizens because of this idea of what you have, America, like, America is entangled with this idea of whiteness. My take on, like, I understand what black people mean when they say, this is not my fight. I also understand the other side of it was like, whether you want it to be or not, it is because when they start saying, okay, now we're targeting Haitians, well, that just put every dark skinned person on the line, period.
- [25:52]
Deray McKesson
And you can sue, but how do you sue from the Venezuelan prison?
- [25:55]
Host
Yeah, yeah, they've already deported you once they kidnap you once you go to the second location, that's a route and there's nobody to advocate for you there.
- [26:02]
Deray McKesson
It's over. You know, you actually don't have the right to a lawyer in immigration court. So immigration court is not like, this is the loophole. Yeah. Immigration court is not a court defined by the Constitution. Immigration court is administratively run by the doj. So immigration court, those judges are appointed by the attorney general. They're not, like, appointed by the Senate, like the judges that you and I think of. Trump has fired 600 of the 700 immigration judges. He's fired judges on the bench. Like, they are. They are literally in court and he's fired them. So, you know, people think that you have the right to counsel. You've seen these stories. That's how. You've seen the story of like the little kid who has to represent themselves. That's because you don't have the right to a public defense in immigration court, which is also crazy. We're trying to fix that. But I'll ask you this question. Border patrol is not ice. Border Patrol is its own agency. They have the power to patrol how many miles from the American border. What do you think it is?
- [26:56]
Host
Hmm? What do I think it is right now?
- [26:59]
Deray McKesson
What do you think it is right now?
- [27:01]
Host
I would assume from the border.
- [27:03]
Deray McKesson
From the border. Like how far inland from the border than 30 miles? They can patrol legally within 100 miles of the American border.
- [27:11]
Host
Okay.
- [27:12]
Deray McKesson
12 entire states are covered in 100 miles. 70% of Americans live within 100 miles of the American border. That is crazy. Yeah, that's not the border.
- [27:22]
Host
Yeah, that's not the border. 100 miles from the border is not the border.
- [27:25]
Deray McKesson
Is not the border.
- [27:26]
Host
That's 30. Just 130. Still 30.
- [27:31]
Deray McKesson
So the question is, like, what should it be? And these are like the questions that people should be wrestling with. Because you're like, we're proposing 10.
- [27:38]
Host
I was honestly that my first thought
- [27:40]
Deray McKesson
was 10 and 10 is 170 football fields.
- [27:44]
Host
Oh, shit.
- [27:45]
Deray McKesson
That's also not the border.
- [27:46]
Host
Yeah, that's still a lot of lero.
- [27:48]
Deray McKesson
That is crazy.
- [27:49]
Host
Yeah.
- [27:49]
Deray McKesson
Better than 100 miles.
- [27:52]
Host
I look at 10 like, this is Lero to Highway 5. Like that. I can quantify that. I know what that is. I've driven those 10 miles for the last 20 years. So if it is Border Patrol. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Like, yeah, I could give you 10. Like, that's crazy. A hundred is so from, like from Atlanta to the state line. Yeah, that's crazy.
- [28:19]
Deray McKesson
You know, the reason it matters is that Border patrol has the legal authority to conduct warrantless searches in the hundred miles.
- [28:26]
Host
Yeah. And now we putting a lot of people at risk for this.
- [28:28]
Deray McKesson
That is crazy.
- [28:30]
Host
Because just because they can decide and it's in their jurisdiction.
- [28:33]
Deray McKesson
So when we talk about, like, how to end ice, it's like, if you constrain the 100 miles to 10, that actually changes Border patrol's entire footprint. It's never been lowered since it's been 100 miles. It's not something the Dems are talking about. It's not really a policy thing that is coming up in the public conversation, people are talking about body cameras and stuff. And you're like, we don't need, like, whatever. That's not a thing.
- [28:51]
Host
I mean, police been killing people with body cameras on for some time.
- [28:54]
Deray McKesson
You know, you have a perspective on the 100 miles you do. You're like, 100 miles crazy.
- [28:58]
Host
Yeah.
- [28:58]
Deray McKesson
Let's figure out, you know, there are some people who we jokingly internally call it the Night's watch. There's some people who are like, one mile at the border. Like, if. If you get past the one mile, you in you. But 100 can't be it.
- [29:13]
Host
Well, I think even 100 down to 10 is not unreasonable to me, because it's like we're talking about the border, but 10 is still giving y' all grace. I mean, imagine like, you know, however far this person may have traveled to just get to the border, and then they got 10 more miles to cover. You know what I mean? 100 miles to cover means that they could settle by the border. You know what I mean? Like, and that probably is what they see a lot of. But then is, you know, I think the interesting thing that you're doing for me is, like, you're making it very feasible. Even the conversation is very feasible conversation. And this is like, people like to talk shop all the time about, like, not necessarily hypothetical, but we do talk a lot about hypotheticals. But these are real, tangible things that we could be talking about that can affect policy change.
- [30:04]
Deray McKesson
People sort of want the movement people to look like the radical DA, da, da. And I'm like, the crazy is what we're in. It's not what we want.
- [30:11]
Host
Yeah, for sure.
- [30:12]
Deray McKesson
Like the idea that everybody gets breakfast on Chanel. Not a crazy. We should, like, not yell that. We should say it pretty plainly. That feels pre normal to me. The fact that, like, the idea that the police shouldn't kill people, like, that feels like a pretty sane idea, you know?
- [30:24]
Host
Yeah. And. Well, this is also, like, a very normal existence for people in other countries. And I think, you know, this America first. This America is the greatest country on earth. It's like, well, what? With what evidence?
- [30:35]
Deray McKesson
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [30:36]
Host
Yeah.
- [30:36]
Deray McKesson
And the police, you know, it's really hard because there are all these structural things that make it so that you literally cannot be held accountable. And that becomes, like, a difficult thing. When we look up, it's hard to fire a police officer like in Atlanta. Oh, what is his name? The police killed him in the drive. It was like the drive through.
- [30:58]
Host
I know exactly what you're talking about. Cause I have a list. I have a running list of.
- [31:02]
Deray McKesson
Oh, and they fired the officers, but they got rehired. Do you remember this?
- [31:05]
Host
Yes. It happened, like, not too far from where I live. So this was something we talked about often. There was a lot of protests going on around that was.
- [31:17]
Deray McKesson
I can't remember his name. They, like, broke the window. He was sleeping. His car.
- [31:20]
Host
Yeah, he was sleeping. It happened at a. At a Wendy's.
- [31:23]
Deray McKesson
Yes.
- [31:24]
Host
What was. Can y' all get that answer from me?
- [31:26]
Deray McKesson
So what people. So. So he gets. So the officer gets fired and rehired. People are mad at the mayor. They're like, you know, this is an example of, like, the police never being held accountable. Da, da, da. It's like what people don't realize is that there's a part.
- [31:40]
Host
Isn't that. Rayshard Brooks.
- [31:41]
Deray McKesson
Rayshard Brooks. That's the mess. Yep. What people don't realize that in Atlanta there's a rule that says if you fire somebody like same day immediately, like they did with him, you have to send him a letter within like five days saying he got fired. He doesn't have the right to respond or you just gotta send the letter. The Atlanta Police Department just didn't send the letter.
- [31:58]
Host
Loophole.
- [31:58]
Deray McKesson
Loophole. So he appeals and he gets reinstated. That's all the board that writes up. The thing is, like, we are neutral about whether he should be fired, but the law is clear that if you get fired in this way, they have to get a letter X number of days after they get fired. Explaining it. He can't appeal. He just got. They just didn't. Like, Atlanta never sends the letters, which
- [32:18]
Host
makes the firing invalid, so to speak. So he just gets reinstated.
- [32:21]
Deray McKesson
That is a structural default that we can fix.
- [32:24]
Host
Yeah, absolutely.
- [32:24]
Deray McKesson
We should fix that. That is crazy.
- [32:26]
Host
Yeah. If you get fired, then you just. You know what I'm saying? Because I'm hearing you talk about this a lot. These are loopholes. Even the thing about ice, it's like, this is a loophole because it's technically border patrol, so you don't even have a right to due process. So. Yeah, I can kidnap a 5 or a 55 year old. And they don't have the right to legal representation, which will ultimately save their lives in most cases. I mean, there's no reason a 5 year old should be in court.
- [32:51]
Deray McKesson
Yeah. And how do you have a hearing if there's no judges?
- [32:54]
Host
There you go. So it's just loopholes and it's. Yeah, it's the way that they're doing shit is so blatant. I want to ask you this because this is, like, what you do is very heavy, though. I wonder, like, doing it for so long. How do you, like, keep yourself regulated? Because you see people online talking about being fatigued by this just from hearing the news. You're actually engaging in these protests. You're engaging in this policy change. You've probably been through more letdowns pursuing this than anything else, which makes every, like, every win that much more massive. But like you said before, you surrounded by a lot of death, and not only death to, like, people, but death to democracy as you know it too. How do you, like, keep yourself grounded or regulated? How do you just. What stops you from just being like, fuck this, and walking away?
- [33:50]
Deray McKesson
Yeah, I think I haven't been surrounded by that many letdowns. We win. That's like, a part of the.
- [33:55]
Host
Well, there you go.
- [33:56]
Deray McKesson
Is that. You know, when I mentor young activists, I'm like, this is a winning game. This is a power game. I'm not in this to, like, give cool speech. Like, I'm trying to win, you know? So in 2020, we passed 20. We passed laws in 25 states. It's the single biggest reduction of the power of police in American history with this campaign called 8. Can't wait. We did that. Then we repealed the first ever police officer bill of rights in Maryland. We're trying to fix the parole system in Maryland right now. We have a bill to end in every state but two. It's legal to charge people room and board for their incarceration with a bill in Massachusetts to undo that, which. That's a campaign we just started. So we run 20 campaigns concurrently. We win a lot. And that keeps me hopeful because we have, like, all these things happening in cities and states all across the country. So I'm not. Yeah, so I'm, like, hopeful because of that. I'm like, we win. We can show you our wins. They are public. You can look at the data yourself. This isn't like a, trust me, we won. It's like, no, we did.
- [34:52]
Host
And I can show it to you.
- [34:53]
Deray McKesson
Yeah. And, you know, there's something about. I meet a lot of activists who have fought their whole life and never won. That's a hard. That's hard.
- [34:59]
Host
Yeah. That's a tough one.
- [35:00]
Deray McKesson
When you win, you sort of are like, I can do this again. Like, I can walk in, like, the gang thing. I can go to a legislator and be like, hey, I know. I know you're worried about looking pro gang. I know three's Crazy.
- [35:11]
Host
Yeah, three is crazy.
- [35:12]
Deray McKesson
And they're like, three is crazy. And I'm like, well, can we work on a bill together to get it? You tell me how high you think you can go. And I'm like, cool, we can do that. And then we'll come back later and do another thing. But, like, it works. And the more and more people aren't afraid of getting into this policy conversation, it actually matters that you talk about these things. It matters that you would email your person. You know, I talked to the president of the Senate in the state. He said, do I have 25 people email me? It is a crisis. He's like, 25. He's like, stock emails don't matter. So if you just clicked a button, it doesn't matter. But if you even sent a poorly written email to me about an issue, it super matters. Cause people don't do that anymore. So he's like, 25 is a crisis in my district.
- [35:51]
Host
Yeah, it's crazy. Well, but that is tangible, yes? Yeah, that's tangible. That's something that people can. Yeah, man. Yeah, man. I fuck with this. Even though this makes this make so much sense to me.
- [36:05]
Deray McKesson
I appreciate it. One of the other questions in there, but is pay to stay. So in every state but two, it's legal to charge people room and board for their incarceration in some way. So we've mapped it out. The website is inpaytostay.org, but it's rum and board for adults, rum and board for kids. So they charge the parents of incarcerated people, and then medical co pays. So in most states, if you ask to see a doctor when you're incarcerated, you have to pay.
- [36:27]
Host
That's, wow, crazy. The average fee and a for profit.
- [36:30]
Deray McKesson
Yeah, I'll ask you that later. But it's like three to five dollars to see a doctor. But like, you don't make a lot of money. In Maryland, the max, like the highest you can make incarcerated is less than $3. They charge 30% of the wages that you earn incarcerated are taken from room and board. That's crazy.
- [36:54]
Host
Yeah.
- [36:54]
Deray McKesson
You're not making any profit off this. You just are screwing people over.
- [36:59]
Host
Yeah, I. I remember being in so Things you learn a little bit more about the system, being in the system.
- [37:07]
Deray McKesson
Were you in jail or prison?
- [37:08]
Host
Jail, jail. But yeah, too, too fucking much to be honest. It was like it shaped me in a different way now that I think about it. I learned a lot in that situation about what the system is and how it operates.
- [37:22]
Deray McKesson
And were you a young Person or an adult?
- [37:23]
Host
Young, Very young. I went to jail the first time at 17, I believe. Yeah, I've been quite a few times since. I think I. I would say, like, the bulk of all my times that I got locked up was like, from 17 to 21. Okay. But there's this thing like. Oh, you mean, like there will be conversations amongst other people that was locked up and they're just like, yeah. You know, they make like 40 a day off us. And I'm so me being curious, I'm like, where you get that number from? And then I was like, oh, it's fucking four people to a cell. 16. So I was like, God damn. And this is one sale. Like, this is one wing. There's two wings on every floor and there's seven floors. I'm like, God damn. Just. And. And that's just this county.
- [38:14]
Deray McKesson
Yep.
- [38:14]
Host
There's a jail in every county. And that's not to mention, like, I know there's counties much bigger than this. Much. You know. And like, the way that they basically are creating many prisons now, the way that they restructure jails is not. There's really no difference between what a jail and a prison looks like. Whereas before it would be slightly different, you know what I mean? And I don't want to call them amenities, but just that day to day is different. And now, from what I know now it's like they mirror each other. And it's really just a preparation more than it is anything else. It's not like this entry level punishment where it's like scared straight, we make a break. And I was like, they put you right into what it's going to be when you go to prison. So there is really no transition. There is really no difference. You feel imprisoned either way it goes. And I think my last experience with it happened during COVID And yeah, it was weird how inhumane it felt because because of this national crisis, they got to switch the rules up a little bit. And you was on a 23 and 1. But this is just like the whole jail population was on 23.
- [39:29]
Deray McKesson
Could you have books?
- [39:31]
Host
Of course. Like books that got passed around, but they'll be missing pages or whatever. You know, we wasn't allowed to have visits. We wasn't allowed to do much of any. It was like being in solitary confinement. The only difference is, like, you would have one cellmate, but then you subject to this, whatever they got going on too, because y' all are like, extremely locked in. Because you will only get your one hour every other day because There is so many people. So it was basically like a 47 and 1.
- [40:02]
Deray McKesson
Yep.
- [40:03]
Host
And it was like, do you still
- [40:05]
Deray McKesson
talk to any of the guys?
- [40:06]
Host
No, no, no, no, no, no.
- [40:07]
Deray McKesson
Not that face.
- [40:08]
Host
This is. This is. That's a thing. It's like, all right, everybody that get locked up, they know that, like, okay, like, this is where our relationship stops. You know what I mean? But during a 47 one, it's like, this shit was driving me crazy a little bit. And then you can't call lawyers the same way you can if you just out in general population, you can't call home. You can't. Like, you have no connection to the outside world.
- [40:34]
Deray McKesson
Was there an increase in suicide attempts? Like, there were in a lot of other.
- [40:37]
Host
I wouldn't say that, but there was. There was. What there was is an increase in like agitation with other people. So, like, normally, in my experience, and like county jails is like, there wouldn't be a lot of confrontation. There would always be things brewing, but it would be stuff that happened outside that's made its way inside. But in this situation, it was like, dudes are just like kind of losing their minds a little bit, so they just start screaming insults at each other. And, you know, I've actually been put on solitary confinement before, and so I know what it's like to be in those places with like, people with real mental illnesses that literally scream all night. And it starts to mirror that when you. The longer people are confined to a cell and we're talking about, like, there's not a lot of walk space. Both of us can't be on the floor at the same time and function. It's just not enough room. So I'm losing my mind. Low key. Because I'm like, I can't. I can't talk to a lawyer. They won't let me bond out because I'm out of state. Like, is a lot of different things. Like, the judge shit got. Kept getting pushed back. And I was like, man, I've come so far just to end up right back here. And I was like, and this is worse than any other experience I've had before because at least before I could move around freely and, you know, freely, loosely. But this, that way experience for me was like. I was like, this is up.
- [42:02]
Deray McKesson
That's crazy.
- [42:02]
Host
And I was only in there for 13 days. So imagine somebody awaiting trial that's been there six months in these conditions.
- [42:09]
Deray McKesson
Yeah.
- [42:09]
Host
Like they're. They're driving people insane and they don't care because you don't have rights Once you get locked up, two things.
- [42:16]
Deray McKesson
One is we got to get you to come to Cleveland.
- [42:18]
Host
Okay.
- [42:18]
Deray McKesson
To talk to those kids. So after this, I'm gonna email you the dates. They would 100% love to hear from you. And they are obsessed with podcasts, so they will be fascinated that you're like an actual podcaster and they'll be pumped. The second thing that you started to talk about was the amount of money that people make. What percentage of people incarcerated in, in like the non immigration system do you think are in a private pr?
- [42:47]
Host
I guess I would say 70 to 80%.
- [42:51]
Deray McKesson
It is less than eight for. It's really low. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's one of the biggest misconceptions and stories that sort of got popular in mass incarceration because they are so bad that people sort of think they're everywhere.
- [43:02]
Host
Yeah, well, let me. Let me stop. Let me ask you a question. Could you give me the difference between private and public?
- [43:09]
Deray McKesson
And this is why it matters. That people know the distinction is that most prisons are run by your government is like your governor runs prisons, and then the jails are run by the local people. Those are the people on the hook. So when people think that it's like a private company and everything, you sort of let off all your local elected officials. They are no longer on the hook because you're like, oh, no, it's a company. You're like, no, no, it's not a company. This is actually like your governor, mayor, city council, and your legislature, they're the ones sort of letting this happen. There are a few private prisons in the general population. A lot of the immigration system now is run by private companies under Trump. So that is. It's a different thing. But in the. In the sort of local system of prisons and jails, there are only a few that are private companies, which means that it's like literally a private company who like, runs the building like it's their employees. Like the government contracts with the company to sort of run everything that there's not a lot of them. Almost all prisons and jails have private contractors. So, like the health. The nurses will be a private company. They won't be government employees. Or like the janitors will be a private company. Sodexo might make the food, but the facility is run by the government.
- [44:14]
Host
Right, right.
- [44:15]
Deray McKesson
And that's how we care, that people know it's not 80% or 70% or 60%. So like in Maryland, the Baltimore jail is run by the state of Maryland, which is. Which is not normal. Most States run prisons, the cities run jails or counties run jails. That's like how it's broken up. But the Baltimore jail is like an awful facility. But people don't know that. It's not the mayor. They think it's the mayor, it's the governor. Just in Maryland, like the governor runs it. So they, they. Nobody's pressing Wes more. I like Wes. Wes is a friend. But nobody's pressing the governor about how bad the jail is. Cuz people sort of think somebody else runs it. You're like, no, no, no. It's on his watch that all these people are dying. It's on the Democratic legislature's watch that this is happening. Which is why it matters that people like know that it's not. These are not private companies.
- [44:58]
Host
Well, because the way it's talked about it is like it's all privatized. And when you in it, this is how it feels. Yes, yes, it feels. It feels like a Russian doll a little bit. Like every, like, like a lot of systems do. It feels like they pawn everything off to the next person. And this is where people kind of get discouraged. So it's like there's a guy behind a guy behind a guy behind a guy and like nobody know who's a guy is. So it's like whatever it. You know what I mean? And it's shocked and it's really just the governor, you know, and you, you
- [45:30]
Deray McKesson
know, one of the reasons why I was excited to come is that you have such a thoughtful way of thinking about systems and structures, even if you don't use that language. And even you talking about these things like gets to them and it matters. You know what I mean? The problem is like nobody is. Nobody sort of understands who those people are that are making the decision.
- [45:46]
Host
Yeah, well, I'm glad you. I mean, probably 20 minutes in I was like, yeah, this is perfect. Because I get, you know, people ask me a lot of questions and I tell them like, I just don't have the answers. Like, I don't work in policy, I don't work in organizing. I was literally driving a truck 10 minutes ago. I'm advocating for people because I care and I give a fuck. And I still have a lot of learning to do on more so the side of things that you do. But I know that I can amplify voices. I know that I'm well read enough to encourage people to give a fuck about being black.
- [46:20]
Deray McKesson
But you do have a perspective on policy.
- [46:21]
Host
I do.
- [46:22]
Deray McKesson
You do.
- [46:22]
Host
I do, absolutely.
- [46:23]
Deray McKesson
That you can defend which Is helpful. Some people can't defend it. You're like, why 12? And they're just like. But like being able to defend this half the battle.
- [46:29]
Host
Yeah, for sure. Well, now I know that though. See, before I didn't, I had no idea that I was like, I'm engaged with policy all the time. But now, yeah, now that I know that, I'm finna pop that shit. Like for real. Yeah, they gonna policy change. You know what I'm saying? But yeah, the biggest thing, I talk to my sons about this all the time.
- [46:51]
Deray McKesson
How old are they?
- [46:53]
Host
14 and 12.
- [46:54]
Deray McKesson
So eighth grade.
- [46:56]
Host
Eighth and sixth.
- [46:57]
Deray McKesson
Yeah, eighth and sixth grade.
- [46:58]
Host
Yeah.
- [46:58]
Deray McKesson
Sixth grade is the most important grade of math, by the way.
- [47:01]
Host
He loves maths. He hates everything else. And he's like, literally, bro, I've been having to get, I'm trying to get his mind wrapped around like you can't phone it in in sixth grade. Like you have so much further to go. But he's just like, he was like, this is not interesting to me. I was like, but you want to be an architect, so you better get interested.
- [47:21]
Deray McKesson
There are after this, I'll put. There's a small group of black architects in the country who would love to talk to him.
- [47:27]
Host
Yeah, yeah, he, he needs it. Yeah, for sure.
- [47:29]
Deray McKesson
I got you.
- [47:30]
Host
Because I'm trying, like we try to get him into, you know, some of the more funner aspects of it and the game, even the game, like the gamified version of architecture. He's just not interested. He's like, no, I want to know about the blueprints and Lego kid. In, in a way he, what it, what he is more than anything is a Minecraft kid.
- [47:48]
Deray McKesson
I missed Minecraft.
- [47:49]
Host
Yeah, yeah. This is digital Legos, basically.
- [47:54]
Deray McKesson
Okay.
- [47:54]
Host
He's, he's completely immersed. He's on, he's on what I'm telling him is like a 30 day fast from electronics because at some point I can start to see where he melds the realities. And I'm like, hey, nah, I need you fully functioning reality. Like fully.
- [48:12]
Deray McKesson
Where are we in the 30 days?
- [48:14]
Host
Uh, we're seven to eight days in.
- [48:16]
Deray McKesson
Okay. Oh, this is the beginning.
- [48:17]
Host
It's been a struggle.
- [48:18]
Deray McKesson
Okay.
- [48:19]
Host
Uh, he's been spending a lot more time like he, he be isolating a little bit. And I was like, let's not do that. Like, like, I get it, this is like a withdrawal period for you, but you need to like engage with people in his house. You know what I mean?
- [48:31]
Deray McKesson
Is he anti Lego? Only because the LEGO sets is like its Own is like an age appropriate architecture.
- [48:37]
Host
I, I don't think he's anti. I think he's just like, this is the point that I'm making. He's so immersed in digital that it's just like, it doesn't make sen. So I've been doing these like mini book reports with him where it's like, let me get three chapters, let me get a summary, you know what I mean? Just a little summary and then we'll tie these summaries together and I want to be one big book report. So he's. Yeah, I mean he's halfway through one of these books. And my oldest son, I got him reading like Marcus Garvey and stuff like that. Because when we give him like fiction, he just like, he just zooming right through it and then he's retaining the information so fast. I'm like, now let's give you some real historical. Because I think pattern. He's, he's on the spectrum. So he just kind of, he like me. Like once I recognize the pattern of a story, it's like, yeah, I know what this is about. That's why I put books down in chapter four. It's like, I already know what this shit about. I'll go to the end. Like, is there any surprises? No, no. Exactly what I thought was going to happen. Yeah. So yeah, I've been trying to explain to them, like I'm very transparent with them about like what I was doing when I was outside being locked up, how I kind of had to shift gears and how important they were to me shifting gears. And the fact that I like don't want them to have incarceration problems. And sometimes when you look at the cultural aspects of things, it feels a little hopeless at times because of how much they push. Same thing they pushed to me, like just being a gangster, being a street nigga.
- [50:07]
Deray McKesson
Woo, woo, woo.
- [50:08]
Host
All these different things. And it's like it's hyper now because it's so accessible in so many different directions. So to always refocus on education, to always refocus on like, you know, which our status is in the world and like how easy it is for you to get in those systems. It's just one of the biggest fears of mine as a dad because it's like, man, I had to overcome like the system, so to speak, and like being fully immersed in it and like always being in and out of it that I would rather you have a different problem. Like I know there's different problems we can have. It doesn't have to be a jail problem. That was my shit, and I don't want y' all to have that. But, like, I'm wondering from somebody in your perspective, like, policy and things like that, like, how vulnerable are young black men to, like, this system, so to speak?
- [50:54]
Deray McKesson
Yeah, I think. Thank you for sharing your story.
- [50:56]
Host
Yeah, for sure.
- [50:57]
Deray McKesson
That's dope. And my father raised me, so always shout out to great dads. My mother left when I was three. My father raised me, us. And he has been amazing. You know, I'm reminded two things. One is that, like, it was kids who did the Montgomery bus boycott. They were high school kids. It was a teacher that let them use her printer to print that. You know, like, kids did a lot of this stuff. Right. Like, that was huge. The second thing is that I do think it's easy to catch kids up in these nets. Right. And like you, I think about our work in Cleveland. You see so many kids in that jail who, like, the system failed them way before they got to jail, Right? Like, they were. And they know it. They, like, get it. They're like, this wasn't fair. I made these choices. These are bad choices. And, like, they got set up, right? Like, the system set them up. I think I have this undying belief that, like, we can fix that. I'm like, we can fix it. And some stuff we need, some studies to study, but some stuff we don't need. You're like, when people have. Stealing is a rational choice, depending on how much money you have. Yeah, that makes sense to me. So people, like, stealing is out of control. I'm like, you know, if you make, you know, the poverty rate is somewhere around $17,000 for a single person. If you make $17,000 a year, I understand why you stole.
- [52:07]
Host
Yeah, for sure.
- [52:08]
Deray McKesson
That makes sense to me.
- [52:08]
Host
Yeah.
- [52:09]
Deray McKesson
So people are like, is it. You're like, it seems like a rational choice. This wasn't people being wild. Like, that is die or steal, people steal. You know, that makes sense. But that's why we spend so much time on structural stuff, is that we were like, there are a thousand laws and whatever that are making mass incarceration mass. Can we map all of them and can we change them all? That was sort of our vision. So we, like, do these chunks every cycle that we bring on. And then we like. We're like. We think we can do them all before we die. That's like our crazy big idea, because we're like. And I'll show you a chart. But, you know, you probably heard a lot about the war on drugs.
- [52:42]
Host
Yeah, for sure. I talk about it all the time.
- [52:44]
Deray McKesson
When you see the numbers, you will realize that, like, that just isn't enough. It's just not. We can. We can let all of the people. I'll just show you.
- [52:52]
Host
Yeah. I'm curious what you mean.
- [52:55]
Deray McKesson
So here's. This is a graphic done by a group called the Prison Policy Initiative. That is amazing. They're an incredible. One of my favorite groups is if you. If you look at the number of people incarcerated. Look at the number of people incarcerated for drugs, like in prisons and jails, you could let all of those people
- [53:13]
Host
out and it's not even.
- [53:15]
Deray McKesson
It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of incarceration.
- [53:19]
Host
It's. It's not even. It's. It does. It won't move the needle at all.
- [53:21]
Deray McKesson
It won't move the needle. So one of the reasons why I love this graphic is that one of the questions I was going to ask you is like, who do you think incarcerates the most people? Is that people that. All the movies are made about the federal system. If you look at the total number of people incarcerated in the federal system, it also not a game changer. You can let all those people out and it doesn't change the mass part of mass incarceration. So this is the last thing I'll say. And then I'm interested in what stands out to you in this is that we have campaigns that go across every slice because we're like, that's the only way you actually end it. Like, drugs is important and the public conversation is such a. Is such a conversation about drugs, which is real. Just not enough.
- [53:58]
Host
The thing that is most interesting to
- [54:00]
Deray McKesson
me
- [54:02]
Host
this is there's a lot of violence.
- [54:06]
Deray McKesson
A lot of violence.
- [54:09]
Host
And you know, and they make everything about drugs. Like, I think that's like a. It's like a sleight of hand almost. Like you make these things about drugs, like, make drugs seem like the most paramount issue, like the biggest fucking issue is violence, especially sex. Sexual violence.
- [54:24]
Deray McKesson
Yeah.
- [54:24]
Host
So it's like.
- [54:25]
Deray McKesson
And this is, you know, there are activists that don't talk about it because people are nervous about, like, what do we do with the violence.
- [54:29]
Host
It's a big fucking chunk, though.
- [54:32]
Deray McKesson
I'm happy you're having. This is. I think you're great.
- [54:34]
Host
This.
- [54:35]
Deray McKesson
This is the reaction we want people to have. It is crazy. So if we're not honest about the problem, nigga, it's.
- [54:40]
Host
More than half of the state prison is violence.
- [54:43]
Deray McKesson
It's violence and.
- [54:45]
Host
Okay, so I was going to ask you. I hate when I have to like try to recollect names. So I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to say mayor of Chicago, mayor of Baltimore, mayor of Birmingham, mayor of New York, mayors, black mayors, and then Zoran all. I have invested heavily in social programs and seen differences with that investment. And I'm curious to like how policy affects those things. For one, you have to have somebody in there who is social program minded, who cares about the society that they are governing. But I'm thinking about how the social programs affect. What we've seen through their social programs is a drop in violence. And most people are in prison for violent crimes. And drugs, weapons, all these things are extremely minor. And then you get to things like burglary is very high in the scheme of all the other things. 81,000. It's not the chunk, but it is like a testament to poverty. Absolutely. More than anything. That's why people steal dog. I'm sorry. I'm going to send this to my editor so we can put this graphic on board. The violence is fucking crazy.
- [56:15]
Deray McKesson
Yeah. And we gotta be honest about it.
- [56:17]
Host
Look at this.
- [56:19]
Deray McKesson
I actually have. You can have this one. I have a copy for him too.
- [56:21]
Host
Okay, cool.
- [56:25]
Deray McKesson
But it's one of those things that we are. We're nervous that people aren't honest about it. Because you'll never fix it if we aren't honest.
- [56:32]
Host
And we need to see that. Seeing that is throwing me the fuck up. Cause you would think it's drugs. Like the way that they talk about drugs. You think of drugs is like literally the smallest part of it.
- [56:42]
Deray McKesson
It. Yeah. And the robbery, the death thing is a little complicated. So there are three types of death. So there's like Larney death. Like if I take your hat off the table, that is what people call larceny.
- [56:53]
Host
Right.
- [56:54]
Deray McKesson
If I take the phone off your lap because I touched you, it would be robbery. It's death with force is what robbery is. And then burglary is just like break it into. I'll ask you since you. Naturally there you. I love a good quiz. Shout out to sixth grade math. Here's A. Okay. That's for you.
- [57:19]
Host
Death over $200 of felony. Which can lead up to 18 months in prison in what state? A, New Mexico. B, New Jersey. C, Idaho. D, Texas. I would bet my bottom dollar on it being Texas.
- [57:33]
Deray McKesson
It is New Jersey. It was set in 1978. It is the lowest in the country. The lowest felony theft amount over $200
- [57:40]
Host
is crazy and New Jersey is an irrelevant state. I just want to say that I'm really tired of. Listen, I'm going to get on a thing that I. Fucking bother me. Let's like make the Northeast a conglomerate for. What's the point of Rhode Island? What's the point of. Let's just mellow, you know, it's all. I know. I know what it really is. It's about property more than anything.
- [58:02]
Deray McKesson
But Texas is actually the highest amount in the US it's 2, 500. In Texas, the most progressive amount is who is 2500 dollars to be.
- [58:11]
Host
Oh, Texas is the highest.
- [58:12]
Deray McKesson
Yeah.
- [58:13]
Host
So, you know, man, I was in the opposite direction. That just lets you know how informed whoever thought Texas would be progressive was at all.
- [58:20]
Deray McKesson
This is another policy question, like, how much should a person have to steal before they go to prison?
- [58:25]
Host
I think $2,500 is a fair amount.
- [58:28]
Deray McKesson
In New York it's a thousand. Like in, you know, California, it's 900 something. But you're like, should you go to prison for stealing an iPhone? Feels.
- [58:35]
Host
I don't think you should go to prison for stealing. Prison.
- [58:38]
Deray McKesson
That's what I'm saying.
- [58:39]
Host
Even if it's a tv, it's like, okay, you need it in tv, you know what I'm saying? Like. Like once because. Because obviously you're not stealing it to watch the tv. You're stealing it so you can sell it so you can have money.
- [58:50]
Deray McKesson
Correct.
- [58:50]
Host
And I think people, people that get to dictate the punishment of crimes should understand crime. There should be more people like me involved in that because this is not a violent crime. This is something that people are doing to put food in their mouths. So then we go to, okay, let me have an understanding of this crime and let me have control over the punishment of this crime from that place of understanding. And then listen to state social programs so you don't feel like you need to steal a teacher.
- [59:20]
Deray McKesson
What would be your. And you know, we think about punishment and consequence differently. That punishment is about paying consequences, about change. Yeah. So we want to give people consequences, not punishments.
- [59:28]
Host
Yeah.
- [59:28]
Deray McKesson
What would be your consequence for a theft? So, like, say somebody did steal something over $2,500. What. What do you think would be an acceptable. If it's not prison, which I agree. And we think about, like, accountability without cages, that we can hold people accountable without putting them in cages. What would be an acceptable consequence that you think you could sell?
- [59:46]
Host
That's interesting. The first thing I think about is, like, how I Simulate consequences with my kids. So, like, for instance, I tell my kids, like, stay in my room when I'm not home. So if I catch them in my room and like, while they're in the midst of, like, entertaining friends and stuff, I just go in their room. I just stand there. They be like, what the fuck?
- [60:07]
Deray McKesson
They are like, get him out.
- [60:08]
Host
And they like, God. I'm like, you see that feeling that you feel? It's like, that's all I'm asking from you. So the same way you want me to respect your room and your space, because now the stakes are high. You have company and you have all this and that. Like, I just want the sanctity of my room to be private. There's nothing in there for you, right? And it's like just simulating those consequences. Like, more than anything, people need to know what the effects that other people are feeling. They need to feel those effects themselves. So then it changed. That's what changes perspective for me, right? Like when I used to steal out of Walmart, steal out of dealers and shit like that. And it's like, I just don't have the money. So it's like, okay, this is a free food, this is a free hat. Cause I'm going to a party night. I'm a little polo. I'm going to a party tonight. You know what I'm saying? I don't got no money, but I want to look good. And you know, I've never been like a break in somebody house type vibe. But then when I get older and it's like I had started selling these shirts and I left like a few of them on the back seat. Like, whatever it was, whatever. Somebody. I left my car unlocked. Somebody took the shirts. And I was like, damn. I was like, that's fucked up. Like, they just took money out of my pocket. And I was selling the shirts for like $30 a piece. I was damn near $100, bro. And I was like, oh, that's what I was doing in Taylor's office. I was like, maybe, maybe this is my, you know, karma for that. But I think it's just an understanding. It's like if we have social programs and people can take the selfish need out of it of I need this right now. So, like, fuck them. Fuck how it affects them, Fuck the consequences. People need a bigger understanding of like, you know, to put yourself on the other side of this crime. How would it make you feel? And of course, you know, we have like a percentage of the population of sociopaths that don't give a shit. But that's not the people that we're trying to help.
- [61:58]
Deray McKesson
So you would say, like, a mandatory. I would make you enroll in, like, some sort of social program.
- [62:03]
Host
It would have to be a social program because I know, like, dui, risk reduction, those type of classes where you have to see. Where you have to listen to mothers who lost children. These are things that people understand and maybe get policy passed or mandated because it can happen to anybody. So the most tragic thing is a child leaves from graduation night, goes to a party, gets drunk, kills him and his friend, and they were supposed to have this bright future together. Like, when we understand it, when it affects people who can make policy change, who may not be in lower impoverished classes, they know how to affect those things. So there's this program in Georgia called Mothers Against Drunk Driving. And you basically listen to testimonies from mothers who lost their children drunk driving. And I think the way that people hate to go to those, it's because they know, like, what the. Like, because now you feel the effects of, like, damn, bro. I don't want to say house arrest.
- [62:57]
Deray McKesson
Yes or no? Would that be. Would that be a consequence for felony theft? This is a push to understand how to push the challenge.
- [63:06]
Host
No, no, no. It's something I'm trying to wrap my head around too. House arrest, you know, I'm gonna keep it real. It seems ideal. Until you have to be on house arrest, until you can't leave your house. Like, niggas are. Oh, yeah, I think that. I think that's fair.
- [63:24]
Deray McKesson
I'm only asking. Cause these are the. This is the policy question. It's like, so if we say we shouldn't put people in prison, the question is like, what is the consequence?
- [63:32]
Host
Well, and I think then it goes from. Because what you get. What you get in a situation like this more than anything is people weighing the punishment versus the crime. And it's like, okay, am I willing to be locked in my own house for six months? Am I willing to be locked in my own house for a year? Do we create social programs around people that can work from home, like entry level work from home, so people who are on house arrest can still be employed?
- [64:09]
Deray McKesson
And I'm not saying house arrest should be the answer.
- [64:11]
Host
I'm just saying. No, I think. But I think it's an interesting concept because it's like, there still is a consequence. Like, yeah, like, you ain't gonna be in the public for a little bit. You know what I'm saying? But we not gonna put you in A facility where you could be next to violent offenders and possibly like, you know, you go to prison for a non violent offense and like, as we've seen, majority of people are locked up for violent offenses. So you get thrown into a world of violence and you either participate or become a victim to it. And now let's not even talk about gang culture in prison. All these different things, like rape culture in prison, all these different things. I don't think a nigga that stole a TV should be subjected to that.
- [64:46]
Deray McKesson
I agree. I love your reaction to the violent crime. It is crazy.
- [64:50]
Host
No, it's insane.
- [64:50]
Deray McKesson
It is crazy.
- [64:51]
Host
I'm not fucking with that at all. Because this is the biggest. So. Gang culture and rape culture in prison is the fear that most men have around it. It's like, that is the thing that is like, I'm not trying to. I don't want to go in here and get beat the up. I don't want to go in here and get raped. That's just point blank, period. This is what stops most men from engaging with crime. And you see this in, in. In a humorous fashion on social media, right? But it's also, like, used as a way to advocate for men to get in the gym. Like, well, if one man can hold you down, then this is a joke. But it's like, no, this is a deep seated fear for most men is that I'll be subjected to somebody who's way less emotional and way more violent. And like, they got life, so they have literally nothing to lose. So they don't even have their faculties the same as me. These niggas have wrapped their mind around like, I'm gonna be in here the rest of my life. You don't matter to them. So I think the social programming, I don't think Scared Straight works. I think it's been too televised, it's been too publicized, and people don't take it serious. Right. But I wonder around what social programs could be implemented so that people can get like the actual reality of what prison life is. Like you're gonna.
- [66:16]
Deray McKesson
When you come to the jail. I can't wait. I cannot wait for you to meet the kid.
- [66:19]
Host
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm curious about this because if we lessen the crime for. If we lessen the consequence for non violent crimes, which I think is extremely necessary, one, how do we keep them engaged with society? How do we keep them from being repeat offenders? So, like, what are social programs that you know? Like, let's say a person steals, right? But there is a social program Like I said that work from home, now they're actually making money even though they're dealing with consequences of their actions. And. And now stealing seems like less feasible or like less rational. It's like, well, even though. But testimonial. Like, well, this shit actually helped me kind of like it gave me an opportunity I didn't feel like I had before. Right. And I think that's the biggest benefit of social programs. But I think for kids that's like, let's just say you're a drug dealer, you're not a violent person and these consequences are going to put you in the same thing. Then like, then at what point do we start talking about how we classify criminals that do need to go to prison? Because I think if you're selling fentanyl, the amount of people that you have affected is unquantifiable. Right. We don't know how far out of your hands that has gotten. And I understand like at that level with the drug, but I think something like weed, whatever, you know what I mean? I think there's a classification between all these different things and this question of
- [67:39]
Deray McKesson
how long is a policy decision.
- [67:40]
Host
What's the line?
- [67:40]
Deray McKesson
Is it five years that you, you know, people convicted of gun crimes, is it 5? Is it 7? Is it. You know, people are making these numbers up.
- [67:48]
Host
Yeah, they are.
- [67:48]
Deray McKesson
And I meet people and they think it's like some sign. You're like, no, no. He sat in room and said five is what he thought he'd get the votes for. This is not like a. Yeah, this
- [67:55]
Host
isn't some like, no, you really got my head spinning, bro. Like this. I've never thought about this as.
- [68:01]
Deray McKesson
Do you know the difference between probation and parole? I don't want to assume. I know. You know incarceration.
- [68:07]
Host
I know, I know what probation is. No, I don't know the difference.
- [68:10]
Deray McKesson
So they are very similar. So probation is a consequence instead of going to prison or J. Right. Like so you get on probation. If you mess it up, then you go inside. Parole is sort of the opposite. So parole. So say you have a 10 year sentence and you get out. You get out at eight years, you get on parole with like two years left. In most states you are technically still incarcerated, but you serve the two at home, you're sort of out and just don't do anything crazy, just like parole. What most people don't know is that there are 16 states that got rid of parole. So there's no way to get out early unless the governor commuter sins because there's no parole board. There's no thing. So this question will be about the first state that did it.
- [68:51]
Host
Maine is the first state that ended parole. This means that anyone convicted of a crime after blank is not eligible for parole. Meaning that they are. There are almost no options for them to be released early. The options are, A, 1975, B, 1985, C, 1995, D, 2000.
- [69:12]
Deray McKesson
So this means that if the person
- [69:13]
Host
was convicted of a crime after, like, before. I would say after 1995.
- [69:20]
Deray McKesson
Now since 1975. So in Maine, there are no living people who are. How do we not know about who are incarcerated?
- [69:27]
Host
I'm putting all these graphics on the. On our thing, too.
- [69:30]
Deray McKesson
Who are convicted after 1975. So there is. So, like, if you get convicted. If you got convicted in the 90s, the 80s, yesterday in Maine, you are serving the. There's no way.
- [69:40]
Host
It was a way to make sure people serve the full sin.
- [69:42]
Deray McKesson
So there's a thing that happened. I don't know if you've ever heard. It's called truth in sentencing. This happened sort of in the 90s, 80s, 90s. This idea that there should be truth in the sentence that you get. So if you get 80 years, you serve 80 years. Like, that was sort of the spirit of it. So some of the laws say that you have to serve at least 75% of the sentence. But if you look at this, this is a campaign. We have this blue. We started this campaign. I was like, who knew that all these states got rid of parole? That's. I was even shocked by that. And Louisiana just got rid of it. So you got convicted after 2024. In Louisiana, there is no parole. Like, it is impossible for you to get out early.
- [70:14]
Host
Yeah. And Louisiana has, like, a very unique relationship to the prison industrial complex where, like, it's. From what I've seen the most, like, it has the most resemblance to slavery.
- [70:27]
Deray McKesson
Yeah. Angola, which is the biggest landmass prison for sure. I spent six hours on the campus. It is three plantations that got merged into one. And it's massive. I mean, it's like, have you been.
- [70:37]
Host
No.
- [70:37]
Deray McKesson
It is a massive facility.
- [70:39]
Host
Nigga asked me how I've been. Like, it was like Nantucket. Have you been fucking with that? You might have been. I don't know.
- [70:45]
Deray McKesson
They do a lot of programming.
- [70:46]
Host
I know.
- [70:47]
Deray McKesson
Have you been to San Quentin?
- [70:48]
Host
No. I've made it a point to not go to prison.
- [70:52]
Deray McKesson
They call San Quentin prison.
- [70:54]
Host
But I would love to, like, in this aspect of it, I would be interested.
- [70:58]
Deray McKesson
But, like, you look at places Like, Delaware. You're like, nobody thinks about Delaware as a state that got rid of parole.
- [71:03]
Host
I don't think about Delaware at all. But the crazy thing is, like, I have a homegirl from Delaware, and Philadelphia is reckless. Philadelphia is the thing that is the city that you would think about when you think about, like, youth violence, black youth violence. And Delaware is, like, directly influenced by that. It's right there. Wilmington, Delaware. And it's just not something we think about. So then you don't think about how, like, kind of ruthless their judicial system is towards people because, yeah, man, not having parole is insane. I have to ask Mona about this. You know, don't call me white girl who I love. Yeah, yeah. She's from Delaware.
- [71:45]
Deray McKesson
Oh, she. My sister lives in Bear, Delaware. This is very random.
- [71:48]
Host
She's from Philly. Let me not say.
- [71:50]
Deray McKesson
I want to show you this. I know.
- [71:52]
Host
I'm telling. I'm from Delaware.
- [71:54]
Deray McKesson
So this. This report comes out. It's not out yet, but it was just why our team smack draft on it in a million places because they were like, deray, it's not out. But if you go to page four, I want you to see this part. The largest increases in police violence and the largest decreases. Like, who knew? The DC had the largest increase and police violence in.
- [72:21]
Host
And New Mexico.
- [72:22]
Deray McKesson
And New Mexico.
- [72:25]
Host
And then, like, the largest decreases. Rhode island is like, again, I'm not trying to, like, make this, like, humorous, but, like, Rhode Island, New Jersey, it's like. It's like these states are. These states are like this. So, like, I'm like. Like a few tweets, a few minor times. Even if it goes from like, 10 to 4 overall in that state, that's a huge difference because it's not a huge state.
- [72:54]
Deray McKesson
Are any of the ones at the bottom of four, the 12 cities that killed nobody in 2025, do any of those stand out to you?
- [73:03]
Host
Minneapolis.
- [73:04]
Deray McKesson
Minneapolis, yeah. That was a. It's a big one.
- [73:09]
Host
Kind of became known for state violence or police killing. Long beach is interesting. Long beach is interesting. Yeah. Well, of course. St. Paul, the twin Cities. Yeah.
- [73:25]
Deray McKesson
If you go to Page Six, this is new. We've never cut the data. Like, we've never. We have had the data. We've never publicly talked about the data
- [73:31]
Host
in terms of ages before, where is. Is this available online?
- [73:36]
Deray McKesson
So this isn't public yet. It'll be by the time I think this episode comes out. It'll be public. It's not public yet.
- [73:42]
Host
This will come out in.
- [73:44]
Deray McKesson
This comes out on Monday.
- [73:46]
Host
Oh, yeah. Well, this episode will be out after that. So this will be fun.
- [73:50]
Deray McKesson
But look at the ages. This is new. We've never done it.
- [73:52]
Host
The reason I ask is because I want to give people links to be able to access this information.
- [73:57]
Deray McKesson
We've never done this age thing. We know the median age of people killed by the police and I thought it was interesting.
- [74:15]
Host
So majority of white people are over the age of 45. If they're killed by the police. Fully grown functional adults versus black and other people of color. 0 to 34. 0 is interesting. Yeah. Crazy groups experience high rates of police are the youngest on average. So the, the, the higher the rate of violence, the younger the people are as well.
- [74:43]
Deray McKesson
Yeah. So it looks like, you know, you look at the median age of Black people as 33. The median age of white people is over 40.
- [74:51]
Host
Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander is interesting too.
- [74:56]
Deray McKesson
Yeah, like that they have the biggest percentage of 0 to 24 year olds, which is sort of an interesting. That isn't what I would have thought.
- [75:05]
Host
Yeah, that's not. Yeah, man. They. They. This is all like narrative and cultural warfare. And then it's had nothing to do with the data.
- [75:15]
Deray McKesson
Yeah, it's like we've been. I was shot. I mean obviously, like I Run Campaign 0 and this is our data. But. And then go to page nine. This is. We've never put out a. A list of the deadliest agencies before, but we are this year for the first time.
- [75:32]
Host
Alaska State troopers is interesting.
- [75:35]
Deray McKesson
I know. The worst state department in the country.
- [75:37]
Host
They're the worst state department in the country. Well then you also have like the phenomenon of like a lot of native Alaskan women just go missing and they're.
- [75:47]
Deray McKesson
Do they?
- [75:48]
Host
Yeah, that's a big thing. I don't know that because there's a lot of a large native population. But there's also like the rate of women, how they go missing versus like the rest of the country, I think is higher there. And then also no investigations. Like, it's just like if you go missing in Alaska, you just miss.
- [76:07]
Deray McKesson
It's over.
- [76:08]
Host
It's over.
- [76:08]
Deray McKesson
I was shocked that West Virginia.
- [76:10]
Host
I was like, okay, Delaware is interesting as well.
- [76:13]
Deray McKesson
Delaware, I wouldn't have thought. But even the cities. Orlando. Orlando is not a place that I think of like the police department being crazy. St. Louis. Yes.
- [76:19]
Host
Albuquerque.
- [76:21]
Deray McKesson
I don't know anybody. Yeah, yeah, I got. That was interesting.
- [76:25]
Host
St. Louis, Tulsa. Hold on. But Florida has a lot of. Florida has three city cities where. Yeah, that's.
- [76:36]
Deray McKesson
No other state is more. Is represented more than once.
- [76:38]
Host
Yeah. Florida's represented three times.
- [76:42]
Deray McKesson
So that's interesting. And then the last one, just because I know we've covered a lot, is if you turn the next page, this is the first time we've. We've done this sort of before, but we've never put it out like this. We look at the cities that have only killed black people.
- [76:58]
Host
At least 156 agencies only kill black people. The top being Washington, D.C. wichita, Kansas. That throws. That's Cleveland, Baltimore, Cleveland, Buffalo, Portland. With only 5% black population. Yeah. Those two stick out to me a lot. Even if the number is only one, it's like, that's the only people you killed.
- [77:38]
Deray McKesson
That's the only people. Yes.
- [77:39]
Host
And that's the smallest population of people.
- [77:41]
Deray McKesson
Yes.
- [77:41]
Host
It.
- [77:42]
Deray McKesson
So we pulled it because we were like, we asked the team to pull it first just to see Baltimore is high. We were like, is there a lot? And then we looked and we're like, oh, this is sort of not. And interesting that Baltimore and D.C. you know, neighbor, neighboring cities.
- [77:53]
Host
Yeah. I mean, and the number of people. So the number of people isn't. Isn't like alarming. Is 8 and 4 and 2 and 1.
- [78:02]
Deray McKesson
And the police killed three people a day, by the way.
- [78:04]
Host
Yeah.
- [78:04]
Deray McKesson
The way the numbers work.
- [78:05]
Host
Right. So. So even though the numbers are not high, that's not the thing to be focused on. The thing that I want to focus on is like why police shouldn't be killing people.
- [78:13]
Deray McKesson
Correct.
- [78:14]
Host
Yeah. You know what I mean? But I think it's very interesting.
- [78:20]
Deray McKesson
And at the bottom of that, if you look at Jacksonville, you know, you are seeing a draft. We probably should move this Jacksonville story. But Jacksonville, the sheriff's office saw a 400% increase in police killings.
- [78:32]
Host
And one of the victims was 14. And.
- [78:35]
Deray McKesson
And it was 14 total killings too. It's crazy.
- [78:39]
Host
Yeah. In April 2025, the department approved the use of personal handguns instead of department issue glocks.
- [78:49]
Deray McKesson
Crazy.
- [78:50]
Host
Referencing the opinion of a safety analysis that officers could show improvement in effectiveness and confidence. Oh, so just whatever gun you're comfortable with. What the fuck? What are you talking about?
- [79:07]
Deray McKesson
So we looked at the data.
- [79:08]
Host
So what if that's a.44 Magnum? Then it's like you just blow somebody fucking like that's crazy to me.
- [79:12]
Deray McKesson
And as we say, two occurred before the change, and then 12 of the killings occur after the change happened.
- [79:20]
Host
This is. This is a little wild.
- [79:22]
Deray McKesson
We have a team that wakes up every morning to log them. They go through two different reviews. It's like this whole process, but we use the Data to help us think through cities that we should be looking at differently, like neighborhoods.
- [79:43]
Host
I think it's interesting to see an increase in violence. As soon as the police can use guns, they're comfortable with.
- [79:53]
Deray McKesson
Jacksonville. Yeah, we didn't even know this was. This wasn't even a day.
- [79:55]
Host
That's like a very interesting statistic.
- [79:57]
Deray McKesson
And you're like, who is this safety analyst that did that study? You're like, that feels sketchy. But the overall sort of good news is that this is the first year in six years with the police. If you look at the overall Numbers on page three, we skip page three, but it goes down in 2025, whereas before it just went up and up.
- [80:16]
Host
It was peaking in 2024. Hmm.
- [80:24]
Deray McKesson
It was the first year.
- [80:25]
Host
There's been a gradual increase since 2013.
- [80:28]
Deray McKesson
Yes. Yeah. Well, I.
- [80:30]
Host
Well, since 2014.
- [80:31]
Deray McKesson
Our data really starts in 13. There's never been great data on this. There was a database that existed before us, and he retired. And we count. You know, I can talk about the methodology, but we do all on duty, off duty, all weapons is sort of what we do. That's our methodology. And the only thing that somebody else used to do. Car chases are a little different. We only count you if the car hits you. We don't count you if the car chases you and then you die.
- [80:55]
Host
Okay.
- [80:56]
Deray McKesson
But yeah, no, he'd been going up and up and up. I mean, it's still high.
- [80:59]
Host
It's very high. But. So the thing that. And I could have this data wrong, but I think I'm right, is that we've seen. We're seeing like, a steady increase of police violence as we see a decrease in public violence just across the country. So when you go to cities like. Cities like Baltimore, cities like Birmingham, who's seen a significant decrease in murder, but in some of these places, you're seeing an increase in police violence. Yeah. That's interesting. I wonder. I'm curious as to what the correlation is.
- [81:40]
Deray McKesson
Yeah, I don't think I know. I don't think I know that.
- [81:43]
Host
I don't think those numbers aren't concrete enough. This is concrete. So it's like.
- [81:46]
Deray McKesson
It is interesting, too. Like these are all policy questions, is we have another campaign about crime data so people can understand it. And if you look at some of the data, it looks like rape has increased by 200, 300% over a set of years. So I'm talking to the team. I'm like, what happened? Like that. I would. I feel like I would have heard that. This is a thing. And our team's like, deray, remember that the definition of rape changed under Obama. That before Obama, rape was penile, forced penile insertion in a vagina. That was. Wasn't anal, it wasn't your mouth, and it wasn't objects. So when we expanded the definition of rape, the numbers changed because, like, yeah, we weren't including that in the data. You're like, this is crazy.
- [82:28]
Host
And it's also crazy to think that those things were not included until Obama. Yeah.
- [82:33]
Deray McKesson
You're like, that is nuts. You know?
- [82:35]
Host
Yeah. This is all kind of, like, blowing my mind a little bit. I ain't gonna lie. Like, seeing the numbers is really throwing me off because we all have, like, an idea of what it is. I think what y' all are doing is, like, literally mapping it out. As interested as I am, I know it's like, kind of disheartening to see, like, how ICE is gonna play into this, because it's not police violence, but it's state violence at the same time. In what ways? How do you prepare citizens to deal with, like, I'm wondering if there's any training that's been done or any, like, programs that's been done for citizens just in how to deal with violent police, even though you shouldn't have to. How do you even talk to citizens about starting to prepare for state violence or to deal with people who want to engage in state violence without encouraging them to be violent as well?
- [83:43]
Deray McKesson
Yeah. So, like, there are groups. We don't do it. There are groups that do, like, know your rights training and that sort of stuff. And, like, that matters. I was talking to a big group of people who are animated about ICE because of Minneapolis. And I'm trying to explain to them, like, they're focused on evictions, like stopping evictions during the crisis in Minneapolis. That makes sense to me. Food pantries, all that stuff makes sense to me. None of that will stop ice.
- [84:03]
Host
Right, Right.
- [84:03]
Deray McKesson
It's like, how do we help? I'm interested in, like, how do we help? Everyday people realize that they are experts on some of the stuff that they definitely know they don't want. Right. It's like the 100 mile border or like, you know, we're proposing a cap on ice officers. There are 2200 now. We want to cap them at 1100. So only 5% of the people that ICE arrest are arrested for. They're convicted of violent crimes. We're like, we'll give you 5% of those agents to deal with that group of people that would stop you at 1100 officers if they go from 22,000 to 1100. ICE is a different agency all over.
- [84:36]
Host
Yeah. And it also doesn't. Because there's an overwhelming number of them. One situation has, like, 10 ICE officers there, which is like, yeah, bro. The presence of them and what they represent is. Yeah.
- [84:49]
Deray McKesson
And we remind people, my elementary school is older than ice. Ice is new.
- [84:53]
Host
Yeah.
- [84:53]
Deray McKesson
ICE is like a new thing. So when you talk about the police, the local police, it's like, we did a campaign called 8 Can't Wait. That's like chokehold bands, and you can't shoot them. Like, we wrote, you know, Renee Good got killed because they shot into a moving vehicle. We wrote the federal ban on shooting into moving vehicles. We wrote that with the DOJ under Biden. They didn't follow it. It's like, what do you do when you, like, change the policy? It's the right thing, and they don't follow it. It's like, there's no accountability. Da, da, da. Which is why the federal system is sort of a mess. But at the local level, we do believe that we can change, like, the laws and policies and stuff, and we can get citizen everyday citizens to go in and be like, hey, the police shouldn't be able to choke people to death. So, like, in New York City, New York has a civilian oversight board. It is robust. It's staffed well. They make a lot of decision, like, a lot of recommendations. We did a community forum about it. People don't realize that all they can do is make recommendations. They can't actually fire an officer. You're like, well, that doesn't make sense. When we poll people, we ask people, they're like, they should be able to fire bad officers. You're like, yes, you should go tell your city council person that they should be able to fire bad officers.
- [85:54]
Host
You know what I mean?
- [85:55]
Deray McKesson
And it's those sort of things that people can demand immediately to, like, that would, I think, change the game as we go to a system where we don't need people with guns to respond to violent crimes. Even the police, you know, what percentage of 911 calls do you think are for violent crimes, for violence?
- [86:12]
Host
I would say less than 5%.
- [86:14]
Deray McKesson
It's 5%.
- [86:15]
Host
Yeah.
- [86:15]
Deray McKesson
So, like, the police.
- [86:17]
Host
Because the thing is, is, like, once the violence has happened, like, you're there, y' all are being caught in the aftermath.
- [86:23]
Deray McKesson
You're not stopping.
- [86:24]
Host
It's not like police are not, like, really preemptive in preventing anything. They're more so they're responders that's what they do. They respond to things. Because I think in any other profession, you know, for me, for example, let's say I had an employer and I was running this show and this is like, I work for Creative Soul Studios. And they just constantly got calls like, bro, we hate this fucking guy. Like, why do y' all keep recording podcasts? I think it would be the best interest of a creative soul to get rid of me if they want to retain the audience. I think when you're doing truck driving, there are signs on the back, how's my driving? If enough people complain about you, you're not gonna have a job.
- [87:07]
Deray McKesson
Those signs really matter.
- [87:08]
Host
Yeah. Hell yeah. People call. I've gotten a call before. It was weird because it didn't have anything to do with how I was driving. Okay. It was like that. It was like he parked in. He parked in a place he shouldn't park. And I was like, all right.
- [87:26]
Deray McKesson
Okay.
- [87:27]
Host
Right, Yeah.
- [87:27]
Deray McKesson
I didn't know that's called.
- [87:28]
Host
That shit says, how's my driving now?
- [87:31]
Deray McKesson
How's my parking?
- [87:32]
Host
Well, yeah, but I think the thing is, is that the people are effective and things like that. Even at a restaurant, if enough people complain about a waitress or a waiter, the business will get rid of them. If enough people complain about a violent police officers, like actually killing citizens and harmon citizens.
- [87:50]
Deray McKesson
Yeah.
- [87:51]
Host
And imagine if, you know, change where
- [87:53]
Deray McKesson
it's impossible to be held accountable. Like, I get why the police act crazy.
- [87:56]
Host
Yeah. It becomes, you know, God complex. It's like, shit, I didn't did all this and nothing happened.
- [88:01]
Deray McKesson
Yeah, yeah.
- [88:01]
Host
Still got my job. I might have gotten a promotion.
- [88:04]
Deray McKesson
And we have another campaign that is like, probably our wonkiest. But it's called Next to six. We like, we have the only database of police union contracts in the country. And you see these protections. There are cities across the country where the police disciplinary records get destroyed every two years. So you can't ever establish a pattern because it's in the contract. It literally just says like, every two years the files are. Disciplinary records are destroyed or purged. And you're like, well, if that's the.
- [88:28]
Host
I don't think anybody that's getting a pension should have like, your file should be a file. Your file should be a file for the duration of your employment.
- [88:35]
Deray McKesson
That's. Detroit has the craziest. Detroit has a. Literally, I'm like, sad that of all the things I printed, I didn't print this out. Detroit, in the police union contract, it says if you get convicted of domestic abuse, you Cannot be fired immediately. You get held in paid status for nine months while you fight the charge. That is what the contract said. You're like.
- [88:53]
Host
That exists in no other job.
- [88:55]
Deray McKesson
That is crazy.
- [88:58]
Host
I think.
- [88:58]
Deray McKesson
I think we actually cover most of them.
- [89:00]
Host
I don't. I think. I don't know. I'm looking through because, like, this is one of the most.
- [89:04]
Deray McKesson
We did. Yeah, we did. The 129 cities you did who incarcerated so much. People. I think I snuck them in in conversation because you.
- [89:13]
Host
Yeah, you've done. Damn. You covered all this.
- [89:15]
Deray McKesson
You know, there's one chart that I wanted to show you because you had another episode where you talked about. You should have made this claim that
- [89:22]
Host
you have a great memory.
- [89:23]
Deray McKesson
If we all this. You. You talked about how, like, if there's a plan for justice that doesn't include economic justice, then it doesn't matter. That was sort of one of your pushes.
- [89:32]
Host
Yeah.
- [89:33]
Deray McKesson
I am fascinated by the impact. So one of the things that I believe is that if we don't close, if we don't end mass incarceration, we can never close the racial wealth gap. Like, the numbers just don't. It's not like a philosophical belief. It's like a.
- [89:44]
Host
No. That seems very concrete to me.
- [89:46]
Deray McKesson
But I want you to see this because this graph of, you know, there are a lot of things that stuck with me, but this shows the impact of incarceration by race on wealth accumulation.
- [89:59]
Host
Yeah. And you. The. The amount of people who are never incarcerated.
- [90:04]
Deray McKesson
And if you look.
- [90:05]
Host
Experience more wealth. Yeah. The longer. The. The more time I've spent not going to jail, the more money I made.
- [90:10]
Deray McKesson
But look at the black. Look at black. Look at what happens to the black experiences. Incarceration is flat. Like you. The black never incarcerated is already low.
- [90:21]
Host
But the black, it's been the constant.
- [90:23]
Deray McKesson
The black experiences incarceration. That's the game. Like, you've.
- [90:29]
Host
It's keeping you poor.
- [90:31]
Deray McKesson
It's done. So when you look at like one in three black boys that's gonna get arrested or something like this, crazy stats like that, you're like, if it flattens you.
- [90:39]
Host
Yeah, it keeps them completely flat.
- [90:41]
Deray McKesson
Oh, it's a rap. It's a rap. Like. Like if we don't.
- [90:44]
Host
And since 1998, from 98 to 2000, people, white people who've seen. Who experienced incarceration saw an increase in wealth.
- [90:55]
Deray McKesson
Crazy.
- [90:56]
Host
So even if they went to jail or experienced incarceration, they seen an uptick in wealth, which is insane. And I wonder what changed, Right. For black and Hispanic People, it's pretty similar. It's way flatter for black people. It's just fucking insane.
- [91:13]
Deray McKesson
But every time I think, you know, people talk about like financial literacy. It doesn't matter if you keep arresting all these people. It flattens the line if you.
- [91:22]
Host
But the also the amount of wealth that white people get, if they've never experienced just according to this.
- [91:29]
Deray McKesson
It's crazy.
- [91:30]
Host
It's all triple. It's triple and double everybody else. It's like nuts.
- [91:36]
Deray McKesson
But I am, I have been fascinated with this graphic for a very long time because people, I worry that we don't realize the impact of incarceration on wealth as like a flattening.
- [91:46]
Host
Yeah. It's not just a bad thing. It's like you're flattening as soon as you get incarcerated. And another thing that is interesting to me is how you know, like what you said before crime, like punishment versus consequences. And how many white people have stories of like, I got pulled over with some weed or I got pulled over drunk driving. And you know, this person knew my dad or wood. Woo woo. So they evade incarceration. Y a lot more too. And then let's. Not to mention the metrics of black people who are wrong. Wrongfully convicted of crimes. And this also makes a lot of sense with people who are exonerated of crimes 15 years after they happen. They give them what, like $1 or $2 million or something like that, which means that your incarceration is directly linked to your wealth. That shows it in that. I get it.
- [92:38]
Deray McKesson
Yes. Yeah.
- [92:38]
Host
Yeah.
- [92:38]
Deray McKesson
This is crazy. You know, some people push us and they're like, dude, you hate the police. Or like we talk about.
- [92:44]
Host
So
- [92:47]
Deray McKesson
we talk about a world beyond policing. And they're like, what would it look like a world beyond policing? And we asked you, but like, can you think of the place where you feel the most safe? Like, you don't have to tell me. Just get it in your mind. A place where you're just like, I feel safe here. Are the police there?
- [93:00]
Host
No. Hell no.
- [93:01]
Deray McKesson
We remind people like, you already have a sense of what safety is.
- [93:04]
Host
My anxiety rises as soon as I see a cop car. Even if I'm not doing anything.
- [93:08]
Deray McKesson
Yeah.
- [93:08]
Host
I'm like, oh, like you black people. At first they're like, we in a car and we see the police block. They go to police. It's like, we ain't even doing shit.
- [93:17]
Deray McKesson
No. When we ask people like, where do you feel the most safe? Nobody's like a room full of police.
- [93:22]
Host
Never.
- [93:22]
Deray McKesson
Like, that's not a Thing ever. And, and when I talk about it now that people, because the police, you know, people feel really strongly about the police, it's easier for me to talk about a person with a gun. Like, do you need a person with a gun to tell a 10 year old to stop yelling? You don't. That's how I talk about school police. So like, do you need a person with the gun to tell you that your tail light's out? You know, you know what I mean? Like, we can't keep sending people with guns to, to every crisis or every problem.
- [93:45]
Host
So then how do you combat the. I guess it's random though. It's so random. And I wonder how frequent it is that a random traffic violation turns violent from citizen to officer. That has to be a very low rate. But this is the argument that they're always gonna put, well, you know, I could be walking into a very dangerous situation. And I think this is where we get into the distinction of traffic violation versus violent offender or traffic violation versus law enforcement. Is that if I'm pulling you over for a traffic infraction and my lights are purple, you automatically know that this person doesn't have a gun. And maybe I don't need to engage in violence with them because I don't have to worry about that. But the police are engaging in every stop to get more. They want to, they want to get more. I want more and more information. I'm looking for a reason to lock your ass up instead of it just being, hey, your tail lights out, Woody. Woo woo. It's like they're actively invasive, engaged in investigation. As soon as they pull you over, which is going to. And people know that, so it puts you on 10. Because even if I didn't do anything wrong, you're nervous because I'm nervous. And then you're going to use that as an excuse to search my car. You're gonna look at it as an excuse to like say I'm trying to hide something and you escalate the situation. That doesn't need to be escalated. And it's a waste of fucking time.
- [95:07]
Deray McKesson
And imagine if there were a group of unarmed people whose job was to do that sort of stuff.
- [95:10]
Host
Exactly. Well, this is the thing, this is what I'm saying. It's like if the lights are purple instead of blue, I can relax. Like I know that this isn't going any further than a traffic situation. And if I am drunk, if I am, you know, clearly high out of my mind, then we call police for backup because it's like, yeah, this person is clearly. But then also a person who's in that role won't be power tripping like that. This is just be. This would be like, like a meter made more than, more than it's glorified meter maid. They don't take those. Like, when people cuss them out, they like, all right, bro, I'm still gonna write you the ticket. They don't, they don't. Like, you see people in that position when they don't have a weapon and they know that they have no leeway to engage in violence, they disengage from they de escalate situation more than anything. And I think the, you know, the traffic officers would be more so trained in de escalation and will probably. Actually the way that this country works is that a person. If there was a, if there was traffic officers who only engaged in traffic violations, they would probably require more training for them than they would actual police officers.
- [96:20]
Deray McKesson
And not even. Maybe we don't call them officers, but like the traffic people, you know what I mean? Like, that could be helpful. And when police say that, they say
- [96:26]
Host
it could be traffic enforcement, traffic enforcement.
- [96:28]
Deray McKesson
And when they say what you just said, which is the argument that the police make, they're like, but what if I find something? You're like, you don't need to chase them either because you know who they are. You got the license plate still.
- [96:38]
Host
You got all the information.
- [96:39]
Deray McKesson
You got it. Yeah. You might find.
- [96:39]
Host
If they run, you gonna find them.
- [96:40]
Deray McKesson
You gonna find them. You know, like, and the police are not.
- [96:43]
Host
So, you know, that's something that's looming over their head. Like, damn, I just ran from the police. Even if I got away, I know that they looking for me. I know there's a warrant for my arrest.
- [96:50]
Deray McKesson
My license.
- [96:51]
Host
They have my license. They got everything.
- [96:52]
Deray McKesson
They got it. So like, let them. Like, it's okay. And that car chase is just endangering everybody else. That's not helpful. And it's one of the reasons why we were against shooting into moving vehicles. Like, because, you know, the police. I'm in the, I'm in the meeting, negotiating with the police chiefs to like change the policy. So I did the LA police chief, I did all these cities, right? And they're like, but, right. And it's like, your officers are not good shots. You barely can shoot right when the person's standing still. Yeah, you certainly can't shoot at the. You can't shoot the driver. Driver.
- [97:22]
Host
Yeah. And then you put everybody in there. Yeah. Like 10, 10, 10 fold.
- [97:27]
Deray McKesson
Not worth it.
- [97:27]
Host
Yeah. And not to mention the, you know, the, the situation that just happened in Savannah where the vehicle was fleeing from ice.
- [97:39]
Deray McKesson
Oh, the, the black teacher. They got killed.
- [97:41]
Host
Black teacher got killed. And the thing is, there's such no response to like, like, they literally just like left her to die. And so this is the thing. It's like the psychology of these people is like they're, they're heroic, but you're like, obviously not. You're just cowards that are engaging in violence at all times. And you're class traitors more than anything, which is a whole nother conversation. But the police are the biggest class traitors in this country.
- [98:07]
Deray McKesson
Yes.
- [98:07]
Host
Any person in law enforcement, period. I like, like, y' all selling. Y' all selling your fellow man out for the promise of money, who Trump obviously is not giving y' all these bonuses either. So y' all got fucked over too.
- [98:19]
Deray McKesson
Absolutely.
- [98:19]
Host
Which is gonna make you even more violent because, you know, we always punch down when we process our anger instead of like pointing up. And that's just like a phenomenon that I see in America all the time. You can see it with. You see it. And you've probably seen this in education where teachers are like taking out a little more personal situations on certain kids. You know, they pick and choose what kids are problem children and they direct all of the attention to them. And the issue that I used to have in school more than anything is like, attention. Right. The worse your behavior is, the more attention you get. But you're considered good if they don't acknowledge you at all. And I think that there's a, there needs to be a reversal of just, just that psychology is that I ignore the person who does everything right. But so you insensitive. And if we know kids are like extremely attention based, you're incentivizing bad behavior when you only pay attention to bad kids.
- [99:15]
Deray McKesson
You just made me think. One more campaign. Have you ever seen a drug free school zone? I didn't print this out.
- [99:22]
Host
Yeah, I was interested in that.
- [99:24]
Deray McKesson
Have you ever seen one of the signs that says you're in a drug free school zone? I don't. Can you get my. Is that computer like hooked up to the Internet? Yeah, you go to zerozones.org this is not public yet, but we can show you. It's 00zones.org. Yeah. So you've been to a drug. Like, you've seen the sign that says, like, you're in a drug free school zone. Most people don't know that every drug free school zone Is a bad thing. Okay, so the. If I tell you the password, can you just not put it on the. Okay.
- [99:53]
Host
All right.
- [99:54]
Deray McKesson
It's not. I don't know why.
- [99:55]
Host
It's not crazy on there.
- [99:56]
Deray McKesson
I don't know why our team puts these really intense passwords on the drug free school's own site.
- [100:02]
Host
Don't give me that password. I'll be all on y'. All shit.
- [100:06]
Deray McKesson
Okay. Okay, so scroll down to the. This is like an interactive. I'll just show you. Okay, so scroll.
- [100:19]
Host
Oh, this is cool.
- [100:20]
Deray McKesson
This is. Oh, you could do this.
- [100:23]
Host
So this is hard, though. I like this.
- [100:26]
Deray McKesson
So how big is the zone? You need to figure out, like, how. How far away from the front of the school do you think? So the way zone jerky school zones work is that it's like if you get convicted of a crime in the zone, you get an enhanced penalty. That's the way they work. So drag the thing for how. How big you think the zone should be? Or I think you maybe have the question. Click it right there. Did I. There we go.
- [100:51]
Host
This is the school.
- [100:52]
Deray McKesson
That's the school right there.
- [100:53]
Host
Like how. How.
- [100:54]
Deray McKesson
How far away from the school do you think the zone should be? And then if you click show me how I did. I think it'll. So most zones.
- [101:06]
Host
Jesus. Are a thousand to fifteen hundred feet, 29 square blocks.
- [101:11]
Deray McKesson
It's crazy.
- [101:12]
Host
That has nothing to do with the school zone.
- [101:15]
Deray McKesson
So what we did.
- [101:15]
Host
This is that border that you get to. This is a way to enhance.
- [101:19]
Deray McKesson
So what we did is that we mapped every zone in the country. So if you go putting. Put in a zip code right here.
- [101:29]
Host
That's where I live.
- [101:32]
Deray McKesson
Okay. So Georgia doesn't have bad ones, so that's. That is good.
- [101:37]
Host
Well, the. The. This area doesn't. Let's go get a little closer to it, man.
- [101:44]
Deray McKesson
I think that that plus sign will zoom you in. And you can go really close because we did this at the street level. So the problem is, like, people live in these neighborhoods.
- [101:57]
Host
Yeah, for sure.
- [101:58]
Deray McKesson
It's no longer.
- [101:59]
Host
So you. So if you do something outside of your house, but you live in a school zone, it enhances.
- [102:04]
Deray McKesson
And if you go up here, go to Harlem. Harlem's New York City is the best. New York City. It's a thousand feet.
- [102:17]
Host
It's. The whole city is basically the city. So it enhances anywhere you do it.
- [102:22]
Deray McKesson
And the only people who know the zones are the police. So I'll set up a drug buy in a place where I know it's a zone. That is because you, you didn't know. Like, you, you. Cause you, you saw the drug free schools on sign at the school, you rightly thought. You're like, if I sell heroin at the school.
- [102:40]
Host
Yeah, for sure. Like on this block. Like even, like right on this block. Well. Cause it makes sense. It's like they do the same thing with alcohol in Georgia. It's like you can't sell. You can't sell alcohol within X amount of feet.
- [102:54]
Deray McKesson
Yes.
- [102:55]
Host
Of a school. Which makes sense. But that shit ain't 29 square blocks.
- [103:00]
Deray McKesson
Crazy. You're like, that is people's living rooms. That's like a whole different neighborhood. That's not about kids.
- [103:06]
Host
Well, then think about this too. It's like, if the church up the street from my house also operates as a school now I'm in a. That is crazy.
- [103:14]
Deray McKesson
And depending on the state, the laws are really. Some laws say every daycare, every church, every park. So like in Georgia, it's every park. One state says, every arcade, one say says, if you are in the eyesight of a child, you're like, this is just a way to screw people.
- [103:29]
Host
Yeah, it's just a way to. Yeah, that's. There's nothing more, nothing less.
- [103:32]
Deray McKesson
And it's like we spend our time on these sort of things. This is like the whole pie. That's what that graphic is called. That had the violence. It's called the whole pie. But it's like, if we actually don't work on the whole pie, we're screwed.
- [103:42]
Host
Yeah.
- [103:43]
Deray McKesson
Because like the drug slice is important, but it's not the biggest slice, bro. But I'm happy that you chose 300ft. That is a much better answer. 300 is actually the most progressive. Like, I think Massachusetts scaled theirs back to 300.
- [103:57]
Host
300 makes sense.
- [103:58]
Deray McKesson
And that is.
- [103:59]
Host
Well, because. Yeah, it's like, you know, I feel like 300 takes you out of eyesight of the school.
- [104:06]
Deray McKesson
Yeah.
- [104:07]
Host
I think if you could see the school, you know, you.
- [104:09]
Deray McKesson
That's a good. That's a good. I'm gonna take that back. If you can see the school, would that work in New York City? Because you might be able to be like, in densely populated communities.
- [104:17]
Host
Well, definition. I mean, you could. That could be 50ft in New York, though. Yeah. Because it's like.
- [104:22]
Deray McKesson
So you're saying the other way.
- [104:23]
Host
Congested, like. Yeah. Like you could. You could walk a block and not see the school.
- [104:26]
Deray McKesson
Not see the school.
- [104:27]
Host
Yeah.
- [104:27]
Deray McKesson
So this is the guilt. I'm gonna use this.
- [104:30]
Host
Yeah. Well, there you go. Yeah. Holler at me for any Time, you know what I'm saying? Policy. No, I'm serious. I got great ideas, man.
- [104:36]
Deray McKesson
And you can see the school because that would be, that would work too if you. Because if you drive, like if you have to turn three, like if I have to make a lot of turns to get out of the neighborhood and I can no longer see the school, that actually is a good.
- [104:47]
Host
Yeah. Well, then I think it's like you can't turn the city into a school zone. And that's what they've effectively done. And then there's like little, small, no criminal. Well, first of all, criminals don't have access to that. Nobody has access to that. You have their behind password. So until that's public, niggas don't even know what they looking at. And I also am of the mind that we are not using the Internet effectively. We don't use websites, we don't use anything besides social media. So for the most part our access to information has been extremely limited to like word of mouth.
- [105:23]
Deray McKesson
Yep.
- [105:24]
Host
And I think a website like that is very interactive. It's fun. It's like, it's like, you know, you're learning, but it's also like very interactive. I want to get back to that because that's what life was pre. Social media is like. You would just find websites that you was interested in. You would find cool shit. I don't think we find cool shit because for the most part we don't even use computers like that anymore. Everything is handheld, everything is in our phone. So yeah, when does that, when does that, does that ever become publicly available?
- [105:52]
Deray McKesson
It does. Yeah. We just are clean up. The short answer is yes. The long answer is that the way they wrote these laws is so crazy that it's taken our team a long time to try and like normalize them.
- [106:04]
Host
Yeah.
- [106:05]
Deray McKesson
So it is going to come out soon because there's the two states that are the worst. I didn't show you in, in that. In Montgomery, Alabama. In Alabama, the zone is 15,000 square feet. It's three miles around every public housing project in every school.
- [106:22]
Host
So just if you sell drugs in public housing.
- [106:25]
Deray McKesson
So 15,000 square feet. So it's the entire cities of Montgomery, Tuscaloosa and Selma. Because public housing and every school.
- [106:33]
Host
So they just can enhance every.
- [106:35]
Deray McKesson
You get a mandatory five year sentence.
- [106:37]
Host
Oh, that's fucked up.
- [106:38]
Deray McKesson
You're like, this is crazy.
- [106:39]
Host
Well, and then you wonder why places like Alabama is like, yeah, low, low wealth to the wealth cat house would be insane.
- [106:47]
Deray McKesson
And that's how you.
- [106:48]
Host
But no Upward mobility. People can't afford anything because their access to wealth has been diminished from day one. Soon as you. Even if it's using drugs, you're done. You're done.
- [106:58]
Deray McKesson
Missouri it is. They also have a big. They have big zones, but the penalty upgrades your whatever to a felony, man. And you're like, A, this is crazy. B, when we go talk to the legislators about it, they literally are like, I didn't know. So, like, we're trying to undo pay to stay. Like, you getting charged room and board for being incarcerated. Every time I talk to a legislator, they're like, dre, I didn't know. They're like, let's undo it. I didn't know. And you're like, you know, this is what is happening. It's like, we can fix that. You know, like, there are a million of these things, though, that we can fix.
- [107:26]
Host
Yeah, I'm interested because I think the thing is about these conversations like this is that you make things very tangible and very, like, concrete. Like, you put the information right there. And I feel like when we're having these conversations, these numbers seem imaginary. So people don't even know how, like, easy it is to engage with this information or to. Like, this is something that needs to be changed. Like, that policy change can change the lives of everybody in Montgomery overnight.
- [107:51]
Deray McKesson
Just that 15,000. The law says three miles, though. So people are like, oh, three is a low number. No, three feet is crazy.
- [107:59]
Host
Yeah, but then. But the. How many of them are within three miles of each other?
- [108:03]
Deray McKesson
Yeah, you can see it on the map.
- [108:05]
Host
Yeah, that shit is insane.
- [108:07]
Deray McKesson
When you see it on the map, it is all of Montgomery. It's just overlapping circles. You're like, yeah, this is why we wanted to show people. Because you see drug free schools on here. Like, oh, a kid shouldn't do drugs. And you're like, that's not.
- [108:17]
Host
That ain't what it's about.
- [108:18]
Deray McKesson
That's not what it is.
- [108:19]
Host
Yeah, Sneaky.
- [108:20]
Deray McKesson
This osce thing, though, it's good. I can use that. Because what people say to us is, they're like, three. I don't want my kid to pass a drug dealer on the way to school. That is what we've heard in, like, focus groups and stuff. People didn't know that these led to consequences, but they are like, well, I don't want my kid to get drugs on the way to school. Da, da, da.
- [108:40]
Host
Who are your kids?
- [108:44]
Deray McKesson
Oh, man.
- [108:46]
Host
Why your child doing drugs?
- [108:48]
Deray McKesson
But the eyesight.
- [108:49]
Host
I'm talking shit.
- [108:50]
Deray McKesson
The eyesight test is a good that's
- [108:52]
Host
like, the eyesight is perfect because. Well, also. Yeah, man. I think then, then we get into a place of community intervention. You know, maybe some, maybe some of the aunties, maybe some of the grannies that are retired can, you know, get out there, like, put on reflective vests, make sure these babies get to school safe. Also, like, every respects their grandma.
- [109:12]
Deray McKesson
Yeah.
- [109:13]
Host
So, yeah, I sell drugs, but, like, granny out there, I'm gonna go chill. I'm gonna. And the crazy on the back street.
- [109:17]
Deray McKesson
The crazy thing about this from a logistical standpoint is that if the police say you were in a zone, you have to prove you weren't.
- [109:24]
Host
Yeah. And then now we get into lawyers. Now we get into, like, Like. Yeah, one thing that I try to tell I, I, I actually go next month, but I go to Phoenix Academy, which is the alternative school in Atlanta, to talk to them. You know, advocating for trades just, you know, just change the perspective about, like, what they're engaging in and. Fuck. I forgot what I was gonna say. What was we just talking about?
- [109:49]
Deray McKesson
I was saying.
- [109:50]
Host
I don't know what made me forget that, but I was feeling.
- [109:52]
Deray McKesson
You were talking about, you'll need a lawyer. I was saying, oh, yeah.
- [109:55]
Host
I was telling them about, like, how much, how much it costs to be a criminal. So, like, how much money goes back to the state? Like. Yeah, let's just say. Let's just say you selling and you done amassed $2,500. And then you get caught like that. $2,500 is a lot to you without a job, but all that shit is going back. Yeah, the bail is. Let's say the bail is 800. The probation fees are going to be at least 1500. Yeah, that 2500 is cooked. You just did that for nothing, right? You just made you. You did all that hustling to give them money. And I think that that perspective of, like, how expensive it is to be incarcerated, how expensive it is to just get caught. You know what I mean? Like, even if you're not guilty, you still got to pay state fees. You still got to pay for a lawyer. You still, like, it's so expensive.
- [110:43]
Deray McKesson
You gotta find a lawyer. Like, somebody I know in New York City. I was talking to him. He's like, deray, I went to go drop off food to my grandmother's house, and I didn't know it was illegal to ride a scooter on the sidewalk in New York City. So he's like, I have the scooter. Officer pulls me over, writes me up. I spend three hours in jail. I'm like, this crazy.
- [111:03]
Host
Not for the why.
- [111:04]
Deray McKesson
I'm like, this is great. He's like, I think I'm just going to like, like write that. And I'm like, do not plead anything to this. Like, we gotta fight. This is how people get records for stupid stuff. He's like, no, I think so. Can't be. So we hire, we like give him a lawyer, goes to court, she gets a dropped for him, he's good to go. But I was like, I was explaining to him because he doesn't think of it, he's not an activist. But I'm like, this is how it happens. You would have had a record of being arrested and whatever for this stupid scooter thing that only because you're black. Cause what police are stopping people from a scooter on the sidewalk?
- [111:36]
Host
Stupid.
- [111:37]
Deray McKesson
But you were willing to sort of just accept it. Cause you're like, you don't know how to find a lawyer. You don't know a lawyer that can do that. Like, why would. You know they put you in jail for this, you know?
- [111:46]
Host
Yeah, going to jail for that is like og crazy. It's insane.
- [111:49]
Deray McKesson
But it was interesting for him because he was like, oh, I see how one moment could change your life.
- [111:56]
Host
Well, I also think that there's so another part of the social programming is, you know, we're in the areas where, especially where there's a dense population of black people. What are the social programs that tell the kids more about the laws so that they understand, like, not only, like, what are the laws you're most convicted of? What are some petty crimes they'll try to convict you of? And then what are resources for lawyers and, you know, representation to help you evade, like, simple convictions that are going to lead to like, like, like every. Everybody care about money, right? Everybody cares about money. Everybody loves money, right? So let's just say, like, if you get locked up, you won't have no money. Like, let's just flat out, like, the, the. The amount of wealth that you just had possibility to like, access to has been decreased to damn near nothing. You're done. You're done. Yeah, yeah.
- [112:51]
Deray McKesson
And this is, yeah, this. People come to me, they're like, deray, we should do a financial literacy or we should like, do something.
- [112:56]
Host
And I'm like, I think, no, let's get, let's get way, way in mass incarceration.
- [112:59]
Deray McKesson
That is a racial wealth gap closing strategy.
- [113:02]
Host
Yeah, that, that. Well, let's start there.
- [113:04]
Deray McKesson
Yeah, that's the thing.
- [113:04]
Host
Yeah, man. Thank you, bro. Thank you for pulling up. Where are you based in between Baltimore and Harlem.
- [113:10]
Deray McKesson
I know. I flew in today. I like got off the plane. Oh, yeah, I went to FedEx to print and I came here.
- [113:17]
Host
Oh, bet, bet, bet. Okay. Yeah, I got friends in both places, so that'll be good.
- [113:23]
Deray McKesson
This is great. Yeah. And I'm gonna see you at the jail.
- [113:25]
Host
Yes. Yeah, I would love that. And that's in what city?
- [113:29]
Deray McKesson
Cleveland.
- [113:29]
Host
Cleveland. Oh, yeah, man. You know what? We got some work to do tomorrow. We got some work. We got. We got to connect and we get some work done because I think I would love it.
- [113:37]
Deray McKesson
Thank you for. I'm honored to be a guest, man.
- [113:40]
Host
Thank you. You brought so much information. This is going to be really helpful to the audience. So thank you for everything.
- [113:45]
Deray McKesson
We did it.
- [113:46]
Host
Deray McKesson. Anywhere that people can. This your camera. So anywhere that people can find you. Any information you want to extend.
- [113:53]
Deray McKesson
Ray. My Twitter is just Dray D R A Y and Instagram is. I am Deray. Not to be confused with the comedian. He's a friend.
- [114:01]
Host
Deray, not D Ray, but he calls
- [114:03]
Deray McKesson
himself D Ray, so I get it. And you know, people confuse it all the time. But it's good to be back in the public because I've been, you know, we've been heads down since 2016, just like cranking on the 2020, really cranking on these laws. So I haven't done a lot of the public stuff because we've just been. There are 40 of us now, so it's a team of 40. So all these things happen.
- [114:21]
Host
Absolutely.
- [114:22]
Deray McKesson
It's going to be back and thank you for the awful conversation and I hope that you can continue to help people understand that they have a role to play in the policy making and changing systems.
- [114:29]
Host
No, this is big. I'm sharing this with all the people in my Discord today. Appreciate it because I can scan these, you know, you can make notes.
- [114:35]
Deray McKesson
I can scan these and make, I don't know, Discord. I need to learn Discord.
- [114:39]
Host
So I have a subscription service, Patreon, $8. But the cousins. The cousins, yes. And so there. So we've been. All we've been talking about the last two days is this new FD signifier video.
- [114:50]
Deray McKesson
Okay.
- [114:51]
Host
So yeah, they're gonna love this because it's tangible. It's like people need tangible shit. And people like, like those numbers. I'm telling you that that violence number is. I'm gonna be unpacking that the whole way home. So thank you again, man, for coming
- [115:04]
Deray McKesson
this has been great. Thank you.
- [115:05]
Host
Yeah, man, for sure. Well, I mean, y' all know I don't know how to end the show ever. So. Bye. I just wanna rap. I just wanna rap, man. Yeah.
- [115:31]
Deray McKesson
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Host
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Deray McKesson
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- [116:14]
Host
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- [116:14]
Deray McKesson
Yo, yo.
- [116:15]
Host
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- [118:20]
Deray McKesson
My dad taught me a lot, including how easy it is to forget to cancel things. So I downloaded Experian, my bff. Big Financial Friend Experian could help me cancel my unused subscriptions and lower my bills, saving me hundreds a year. Get started with the Experian app today. Your big Financial friends here to help you save smarter. Results will vary. Not all bills are subscriptions eligible. Savings not guaranteed. $631 a year average savings with one plus negotiations and OnePlus cancellations paid. Membership with connected payment account required. See experian.com for details.
- [118:49]
Host
Experian.