88 | Chris Tomlin - The King Is Still The King - Chris Hodges

Summary

GrowLeader Podcast Episode 88 Summary

Guest: Chris Tomlin
Host: Chris Hodges (with Chris Thomas, Matt)
Date: December 1, 2025
Episode Title: Chris Tomlin - The King Is Still The King

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Episode Overview

This episode of GrowLeader features acclaimed worship leader and songwriter Chris Tomlin in conversation with Chris Hodges and team. The main focus is Tomlin’s brand new album The King Is Still The King, much of which was recorded live with students at Highlands College. The discussion explores Tomlin’s heart for mentorship, the intentional themes and stories behind the album’s songs, and practical insights on worship leadership for church leaders.

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Key Topics and Discussion Points

1. Chris Tomlin’s Role at Highlands College ([02:57]–[05:54])

• Mentorship & Artist in Residence:

  • Chris serves as an artist in residence at Highlands College, actively mentoring and training the next generation of worship leaders.
  • He emphasizes giving back:

    “I’m always looking for ways to give back. People came to me at a time when I needed it and believed in me…if I could do that for others and help in those ways…” – Chris Tomlin [03:13]

• Hands-On Impact:

  • Tomlin shares a testimony from a student who attributed his growth and opportunities to the education and experience at Highlands.

• Culture and Teaching:

  • The in-residence program brings in practical, real-world ministry leaders (e.g., Dave Ramsey, John Maxwell, CeCe Winans) to equip students.

2. Recording the Album at Highlands College ([05:55]–[07:24])

• Why Record There:

  • Chris intentionally wanted to capture the passion of students dedicated to ministry.

  “Every time I get to lead here, the passion, the heart…they've given their life for this…you feel that… and I thought, I want to capture that on my next album.” – Chris Tomlin [06:12]

• Atmosphere:

  • The recording sessions felt like both studio and worship service, with teaching, storytelling, and collective worship woven together.

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3. Thematic Intentionality of The King Is Still The King ([07:25]–[13:33])

• Album Title and Message:

  • The title is more than a phrase—it’s a declaration of faith, especially relevant in the cultural context of chaos and awakening.

  “Kingdoms rise. Kingdoms fall…But we belong to an everlasting kingdom... our hope is not in the small kingdoms of this earth.” – Chris Tomlin [09:03]

  • The Album Cover: Symbolizes the crown of thorns intertwined with the crown of royalty, representing Jesus’ suffering and kingship. Hidden details reference Revelation 19.

    “When Jesus was on this earth, he wore a crown…today he wears the crown of King of Kings.” [10:28]

• “My Father’s World”

  • The album ends with this hymn, highlighting God’s enduring sovereignty over creation.
  • Story: The hymn's author, a 19th-century minister, wrote its verses during daily walks, viewing nature as “my Father’s world.”

    “He reigns, he reigns forever on the throne. He reigns, he reigns, this is my Father’s world.” [12:02]

• Worship as Transformation:

  “When you come into worship, your world’s big and your God’s small. But the more you worship, they replace each other…Your God’s big again, your world becomes small.”
  – Chris Thomas [13:46]

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4. Song Stories and Inspired Songwriting ([13:34]–[21:50])

• “How Good It Is” ([14:50]–[16:34])

  • An upbeat, Psalm-based call to worship.

    “I don’t think there’s a word in this song that is not the Psalms.” – Chris Tomlin [15:06]

  • Songs on the album are intentionally scriptural.

• Scripture-Driven Writing:

  • Tomlin incorporates large amounts of Scripture into his writing process, which surprises and inspires aspiring worship leaders at Highlands.

• “Help My Unbelief” ([16:59]–[19:28])

  • Inspired by Mark 9, where a father asks Jesus to help his unbelief.

    “I do believe, but help my unbelief.” – Chris Tomlin [18:24]

  • Tomlin sees it as a song for real, honest moments with God.

• “He Has Done Great Things” ([19:51]–[21:50])

  • A Psalm 103-inspired, simple ballad valued for its quieting effect and worshipful simplicity.

    “The simpler the song, the less you have to think, the more you can tap into your spirit.” – Chris Thomas [22:14]

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5. Insights for Church Leaders & Worship Teams ([21:50]–[23:33])

• Embracing Simplicity in Worship:
  • Not every song needs complex structure; repeating simple, profound truths helps congregations connect.

    “Don’t rush through things. Slow down. The simple songs that just have those repeats… the simpler the song, the less you have to think.” – Chris Thomas [22:14]

  “There’s gotta be a point in your service…where people are free of words…just my soul’s singing to God.” – Chris Tomlin [22:50]

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6. Special Album Tracks & Musical Threads ([23:52]–[30:52])

• “My Father’s World”:
  Revisited as Tomlin’s personal favorite.

• “The First Hymn” ([24:02]–[28:44])

  • Written with Ben Fielding, inspired by the earliest known (3rd-century) non-scriptural Christian hymn, discovered on ancient papyrus.
  • Historical context: The hymn contains the first writing of “Father, Son, Holy Spirit” predating the Council of Nicaea by 200 years.

    “For this band of believers, this early band…to say in their song ‘To the only giver of all good gifts’…such a statement to the culture.” – Chris Tomlin [27:09]

• Instrumental “Emojis”:

  • Four instrumental tracks titled with crown emojis, linked to thematic threads on the project.

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7. Collaboration with Birmingham Youth Fellowship Choir ([30:53]–[33:46])

• “Jesus Saves” ([30:56])
  • Features Birmingham Youth Fellowship Choir, fresh from their Golden Buzzer moment on America's Got Talent.
  • Chris recounts how this collaboration emerged and highlights the song’s gospel flair and recurring lyric:

    “He did what I could not do…” – Chris Tomlin [31:29]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Worship’s Power:

  “Worship should point our eyes to a greater kingdom...a greater reality.” – Chris Tomlin [09:18]

• On Simplicity:

  “Can we just do something that doesn’t have to go to a bridge and a second verse and then get bigger and bigger?” – Chris Tomlin [21:31]

• On Historical Continuity in Worship:

  “What other music has 2,000 years of history?... It’s just a reminder that we stand—we’re the next generation.” – Chris Tomlin [28:35]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Role at Highlands College / Mentorship: [02:57]–[05:54]
• Recording With Students: [05:55]–[07:24]
• Album Intention & Art: [07:25]–[13:33]
• Song Stories (“How Good It Is”, “Help My Unbelief”, etc.): [13:34]–[21:50]
• Practical Leadership & Worship Insight: [21:50]–[23:33]
• Ancient Hymn Story (“The First Hymn”): [24:02]–[28:44]
• Instrumentals & Emojis: [29:00]–[30:52]
• Birmingham Choir Collaboration (“Jesus Saves”): [30:53]–[33:46]

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Tone, Takeaways, and Final Thoughts

Throughout the episode, the mood is warm, collegial, and passionate about raising up the next generation of church leadership and worship. Chris Tomlin expresses humility, curiosity, and deep intentionality, viewing every album, song, and mentoring moment as an opportunity to serve the larger church.

“We’re all part of that family…it makes me feel connected to the first church, the early church, because we’re all part of that family.” – Chris Thomas [28:44]

Listeners are encouraged to seek simplicity, authenticity, and scriptural depth in their worship leading while passing on what they’ve learned. Tomlin’s new album is positioned as both modern and deeply rooted in the faith’s past, weaving a message of God’s enduring kingship in turbulent times.

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For More:
The album The King Is Still The King is out now (link in show notes). Pastors, worship leaders, and church teams will find much to reflect upon and apply.

Transcript

[Matt]

Hey everybody and welcome to the Grow Leader podcast where we grow leaders that grow churches by helping them reach their full potential. My name's Matt. So glad to have you on the podcast today. Today our guest needs no introduction. He's one of the most recognized and respected voices in Christian music. He's a worship leader, a songwriter, an artist whose songs have literally shaped a generation of so many of us. Chris Tomlin has spent decades leading people into the presence of God through worship. With 18 albums, a flock of Dove awards. So, so many Dove awards, a Grammy. He is Christian music's biggest artist with over 8 billion.

[Chris Thomas]

8 billion billion with a B, people.

[Matt]

With a B global streams. And today we're going to talk about something extra special. Brand new album. It's amazing. You got to hear it. The king is still the king. Parts of which recorded good bit of it here right here at Highlands College live.

[Chris Tomlin]

Live at Highlands College. And one of the things, I mean that's than for that nice little introduction, but one of the things you missed was artists in residence at Highlands. There you go.

[Chris Thomas]

Professor Chris Thomas.

[Chris Tomlin]

You call me professor now at Highlands College.

[Chris Thomas]

Yes, we're very, very proud of that actually, if you're new to that concept here at Highlands College where by the way, this beautiful podcast studio is. And Chris is actually here doing another project here at Highlands College tonight. But we have an in residence program and the whole goal is to get the church world's leading voices to come speak to these students and train them as professors in residence. And we have people like Dave Ramsey and we have people like John Maxwell and just many, many others that are coming here. Chris Tomlin, CC Winans, many that come here and teach their trade to our students so we can build world class America's ministry leadership University. So yeah, we're very honored to have you here, my friend.

[Chris Tomlin]

It's so good to be here. Thank you.

[Chris Thomas]

You're also my golfing buddy and people don't know this, but we hang out a little bit together and get a little competitive on the golf course.

[Matt]

And can I get a score report? Like what was the last round?

[Chris Tomlin]

I don't know. It would not be me winning, I can tell you that.

[Chris Thomas]

No, we're actually pretty close. I think our handicaps are pretty close and it's competitive.

[Chris Tomlin]

We're so close that their middle names are Wayne. It's Christopher. Wayne and Christopher. Dwayne, think about that.

[Matt]

This is episode two of between two Chris's.

[Chris Thomas]

As we said, we have the whose middle names are rhyme and they're almost the Exact same thing.

[Chris Tomlin]

So we have Dwayne Wayne Invitational now.

[Chris Thomas]

Exactly. Exactly. But, man, it was such a cool thing to have the project recorded here at Highlands College. Do a couple things for me as we kick it off, because I want to talk about the songs. The best part of this album are the songs, obviously. And I'm already so into this project. I've been listening to it in my quiet time every day. And I'm going to let you guess what my favorite song is, but we'll get to that in a second. But you chose to do it here. I want to know why. And then I want to know why you're even involved in Hines College. Tell us your heart behind this school, too.

[Chris Tomlin]

Yeah, just. Let's start with this. Cool. Let's start with the college. We're here today. I'm here tonight recording at Highlands College. Again, this album was recorded with students at Highlands College, so it does. That was important to me. I. I'll get to that in a minute. But it's just. I love being a part of this school. I love speaking into a little bit of, you know, what I've learned over the last many, many three decades now of leading worship to help the next generation of worship leaders come along. And for me, that. What an opportunity that this. This college provides in that way. You know, I'm always looking for ways to give back. People came to me at a time when I needed it and believed in me and. And saw something in me that I didn't even see in myself, really, and said. And showed me a way and gave me direction. And I thought, you know, if I could do that for some others and. And help in those ways. And so being this school gives me an opportunity to do that and be here now. This would be my third helping out Highlands College. And, I mean, just. It's so amazing what's happening from the students. Actually. I was on tour, just finished tour two days ago, and this little fall run, and I was out, and one of the people that was taking me around, one of the ones there was. You know, sometimes you get on tour, you get off the bus, you don't know where you are, and you have somebody that kind of like, hey, where do you need to go? I was like. And there was this young guy, and he's like, hey, I'm here to help you. Whatever you need to do, get around. It's like, okay, thank you. Got in the car, we're going somewhere. I don't know, the lunch or something. He said, hey, I just want to let you know that I'm a student, just graduated from Highlands College and we started talking. I was like, how was it for you? And I was like. He said, man, I would not be here. I would not have anything. What I have without God directed me there. And what God did in my life and give me this opportunity, this church and, and just he's bright, awesome kid to see that in the real thing. You see them out here and you're talking to them at the, at the school, but then you want to see them at the church and these students thriving with. Because they've had so much incredible hands on work here at the school. I can't say enough about it. So grateful to be part of it. And here we are again. I love coming back to this place and it's just such an open. I love how you guys are so open handed with the resources you've been given. You've been given so much as you know, and you're helping so many people and so open handed with it.

[Chris Thomas]

Well, it's been fun to watch you. You know, it's one thing to do what you do, but there's nothing to try to teach it to others. And I've watched even your teaching gift evolve. I remember the first year, you know, because. Because you know what, you know what you believe, but to get it into like a curriculum or something, you can teach sitting in these classrooms. Teaching songwriting.

[Chris Tomlin]

Yes.

[Chris Thomas]

You know, teaching the touring life.

[Chris Tomlin]

Yes.

[Chris Thomas]

Keeping the heart pure. In the middle of all of that.

[Chris Tomlin]

Right.

[Chris Thomas]

You know, in the middle of being a worship leader and all the fame that has come with that and how you've had to process that and then balancing a, you know, family life and everything. Just all these values that, I mean, I guess you could get from some professors who never have done it, but it sure is better when they're hearing it from people who actually do it day in and day out. So again, thank you, man. It's just been so cool.

[Chris Tomlin]

Yeah.

[Chris Thomas]

And you're, you're a great ambassador for our school.

[Chris Tomlin]

I love, I love speaking about it, love talking about it so much. So when we. So I thought after the first couple times, I thought, if I ever get to do a, if I record another record, I am going to figure out how to get with these students. Because every time I get to lead here, the passion, the heart, because you're with students who this is. They've given their life for this. They're like, I'm taking a step. I am saying, lord, wherever you want to send me, you know, there It's a special group of people here because they're, like, giving their life for this. And so you feel that when you. When you have the opportunity and the privilege of leading worship with a group of students like this, the group of young men and young women, so just that passion comes through. And I thought, I want to capture that on my next album. And so, you know, came to you.

[Chris Thomas]

Yeah.

[Chris Tomlin]

And said, hey, can we do this? And can. Can I record these songs?

[Chris Thomas]

Let me pray about it. Yes, you know. Yeah, of course.

[Chris Tomlin]

And so when you hear this record, the king is still the King. You'll hear this. Like this, you know, all this singing, all these voices on a lot of the choruses and a lot of things. And that's all was here at the Highlands College recorded.

[Matt]

It was a really fun night.

[Chris Tomlin]

Yeah, it was.

[Chris Thomas]

We did it over two nights, you know, to get. To make sure you captured what you wanted. And it was kind of like a studio slash worship service, too. It was really pretty. It was just incredible because we had to learn the songs first.

[Chris Tomlin]

Yeah.

[Chris Thomas]

So you actually took time first before we even started recording. Like, here's how this goes. And this is where the energy is. And then one of the best things that you do, I think, in your. In your. In your concerts and whenever you're leading worship is you don't just sing the songs. You tell the stories of the songs.

[Chris Tomlin]

Yes.

[Chris Thomas]

And I want to dive into that.

[Chris Tomlin]

Okay.

[Chris Thomas]

Because. Because I've heard, you know, the stories behind, you know, even the songs on previous records. Dude, that's. It's just some of the best. And then when you. And then when you worship with it and sing it, it just brings it to a whole nother level. So let's talk about the inspiration of the project. Let's talk about. You know, you said you were down to the artwork on that album cover. You said it was the most intentional. My favorite word in the world, by the way. It's the most intentional album you ever did. Talk to us about the intention.

[Chris Tomlin]

So it's called the King Is still the King. And obviously that line comes from a song on the record called still the King, which is one of the. I feel like one of the great lyrics of the record. This is Song of the Cross, and it just says, for the blood is still the blood, and the king is still the king. And I feel like. I don't know, Chris. I just feel like, you know, we had this. If I would have released this album last year and it was called the King Is still the King, people would Be like, oh, that's nice.

[Chris Thomas]

It's good.

[Chris Tomlin]

I believe that. But just where this album came out in the midst of where our country is right now, midst of what's going on in our nation, midst of this awakening. It come out right in this.

[Chris Thomas]

And chaos. We have chaos and awakening and awakening.

[Chris Tomlin]

Side by side, side by side. It's like plate tectonics pushing against each other.

[Chris Thomas]

Exactly right.

[Chris Tomlin]

And the kingdom of darkness and kingdom of light, just like. Just like. You feel it. I feel it in my concerts. I feel it more than ever. And to say the king is still the king, it's more than just a. That's just so much more than just a title of an album. It is a statement of faith. This is a statement. It's a reminder of statement of faith. So what I've been saying every night is, here's the truth. I've been looking at young people, young generations. Here's the truth. Kingdoms rise. Kingdoms fall. Governments rise. Governments fall. People rise, people fall. Everything on this earth has a beginning and the end. Everything we know. But we belong to an everlasting kingdom. And this. That's what worship should do. It should point our eyes to a greater kingdom.

[Chris Thomas]

Absolutely.

[Chris Tomlin]

To the greater reality. To lift our eyes to the greater reality of. Because we live in a world where it's so me, me, me, me, me, me. Monster world. It's just me centered. I get. I'm in. I'm talking about myself. And what I love, when we come to worship, is that, oh, it reminds us, hey, we're part of a greater kingdom. And our hope is not in the small kingdoms of this earth. And so that's the overall thread that weaves through this. So when you're looking at the. I'll just start with the last song of the record. Cause when you're looking at the COVID of this album, it's this montage of all these landscapes of the earth. It's the mountains, it's oceans, it's desert, it's rivers, it's highlands, it's forest. It's the beautiful landscapes of the earth. And this crown that sits above it, this crown that is. It's on your notes right here. This crown right here. I don't know if you can.

[Matt]

We're putting it on screen for you guys.

[Chris Tomlin]

Okay, we got it. This crown, I thought, what would it be like? I've never seen the crown of the. Of the crown of thorns wrapped around the crown of the king of kings wrapped around the kind of royal thrown. The crown of thorns wrapped around the royal Crown.

[Chris Thomas]

Yeah. They're intertwined.

[Chris Tomlin]

Yeah. And I've never seen that. And I'm sure it's out there, but I hadn't seen it. I thought, that's this whole story. That is the story I'm trying to tell. The blood is still the blood, and the king is still the king. When Jesus was on this earth, he wore a crown. And we know it was the crown of thorns, the crown of shame. Mockery took our shame to he shed his blood for our forgiveness. And yet today he wears the crown of King of Kings. And if you look in that. If you look. These are little details. I never get it. Only in podcasts can I share. But on the COVID if you look way back in that crown, it says Revelation 19. You won't see it on that. But if you see on the COVID of the record, it says Revelation 19. It's this epic. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Thomas]

1:16. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Tomlin]

It's this epic. If you just. This epic story of Jesus coming back again. It says he rides a white. It says, and when he comes back, he'll be riding a white horse, be wearing a robe dipped in blood. Yeah, the blood is still the blood. The king is still the king of citizen. And on that robe will be written King of Kings, Lord of Lords. It says, be followed by the saints. It's like this epic story of what's true. Yeah, it's. Of what's true, what's coming, the hope that's coming, that all things be made right. And so the last album, the last song on the record is called My Father's World, and it's. I think it's one of the great hymns of our faith. I think a lot of people know these words. And I just. Every record I've tried to put a hymn on, most every record I've ever made, and I usually add a little refrain to it, some of these hymns, and I usually get a lot of hate mail for that. And that's okay. It's another podcast.

[Chris Thomas]

Imagine that.

[Chris Tomlin]

But anyway, people say mean things I can't imagine.

[Chris Thomas]

Yeah.

[Chris Tomlin]

Little podcast. Another podcast. But, you know, and I just had this thought for this hymn. This is my father's world, right? And I just sort of this little simple refrain that says he reigns, he reigns forever on the throne. He reigns, he reigns. This is my father's world. And I just tagged that refrain to these great verses, and here's what I found. This. Really. You'll love this. This was written by a Presbyterian Minister from the 1800s in New England, and he would. It says He. When he would go out to walk, he would take walks every day. And he would tell his wife when he'd go out, he says, honey, how beautiful is this? He goes, honey, I'm going to see my father's world. When he took a walk. When he'd take a walk, he said, I'm going to see my father's world. And he took this journal and he wrote and went. After he died, she found his journal and it was 16 verses of when He Would Go Walk the Things. That was what we sing today. It was not. And they put it to music. And I thought, so that's this hymn. This hymn ends the album. And when I sing it. So that's why you see this montage of the landscapes, the highlands, the mountains, the ocean, and you see that crown sitting above the highlands and the mountains and the oceans and all the scapes of just this. This is my father's world. This is. Let's remember this. There's something that. There's someone who reigns above all this.

[Chris Thomas]

That's right.

[Chris Tomlin]

And so when you're. When you're. When on all the chaos and all the craziness that's going on in our world, remember, he reigns. This is his world.

[Chris Thomas]

I love that. That's what I love about that word in the. In the. In the other song, he still. I like the word still because it.

[Chris Tomlin]

Because you.

[Chris Thomas]

When you go through life, you kind of feel like, wait a minute is. He says, is this everything gonna be all right? And I think the most beautiful thing about worship, you alluded to it. Here's. Here's how I always said it, is that when you. When you come into worship, your world's big and your God's small. But the more you worship, they replace each other. Your God's big again. Your world becomes small, you know, and it just. It's this great inversion that takes place. The more you remind yourselves of truths like that. Tell us some more stories about those songs. By the way, one of my favorite is where it kicks off the. How good it is. I've been complaining to you songwriters and artists for a long time that we're not writing enough fast songs, man, I love, you know, songs of praise, man, we need some, because the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness. We need some more joyful songs. We've gotten so deep with our worship, which is fine, but don't forget the praise songs. The, you know, I grew up in the, you know, the look what the Lord has done kind of songs. And just. We got in with a shout first, and then we got into deep worship. So thank you for that. But I absolutely love. It's not my favorite. I'm gonna let you try to guess what my favorite is. But I love how good it is. Yeah. You have a story behind it. It is.

[Chris Tomlin]

Well, what I love about the song is obviously it opens. The Opens record for a reason, because it's that call to worship.

[Chris Thomas]

Yep.

[Chris Tomlin]

And it's the. It's just the Psalms. I did not even realize this. After I wrote the song, I realized I don't think there's a word in this song that is not the Psalms. Hmm.

[Chris Thomas]

And you're good about that, by the way. And I. Wouldn't you mind even commenting on it to the listeners because. Because you've really stayed true to the Bible.

[Chris Tomlin]

Yes.

[Chris Thomas]

You write songs that come out of the Bible. You know what I'm saying?

[Chris Tomlin]

How good it is.

[Chris Thomas]

Thank you.

[Chris Tomlin]

By the way, Psalm 92. How good it is to sing praise to the most High, to sing of his love in the morning, his faithfulness in the evening. Psalm 113. From the rising of the sun to the setting of the saying, the name of the Lord shall be praised. The song starts with, enter his gates with thanksgiving, enters course of praise. It says, the Lord is good and his love endures forever. Psalm 100. The second verse says the second verse. In case we don't praise him. The second verse is Psalm 98. It says, Rivers will clap their hands, mountains will lift their song, Even the rocks cry out and worship them.

[Chris Thomas]

Let's go.

[Chris Tomlin]

And so this whole Psalm, what I love about it, we've been singing it every night on tour. We kick it off the tour with it. And what I love about it is people may not even know they're singing God's Word. They're singing God's Word? Yes, A whole song. And it's just singing the praise that, you know, and I love that about. That's what I love about the Psalms. So much of the Psalms are those calls of, like, let's come on, Shout for joy. Clap your hands, all you nations. Those. Those moments. I mean, Psalms is filled with everything, obviously. Despair, heartache, and all things, but it's also filled with, come on, let's come together and let's celebrate God. So the album starts right there and for a reason. So when you got that bookend of how good it is, and you end with, this is my Father's world. He reigns. There's a reason that the whole thing.

[Matt]

Last time you were here, you hung Out. So Chris did a chapel with all of our Highlands College students with just you and your friend playing acoustic. It was amazing. I mean, just a time of teaching for an hour was incredible. But then you went and hung out with our worship students. And I had one of the guys that's at my campus, at the Granby campus, say, man, he just talked about scripture so much. He was a little bit taken aback by how much scripture is a part of your writing process. Like, take us into that world a little bit. Is your.

[Chris Tomlin]

Can I. Can I share one of the songs in there? That's. That's, I think, is the most surprise song on this album. That's probably the most surprise title that's ever come from my music with people. Look, if. If you're just looking at the record and you pick it up and you go looking at titles, this one you wouldn't think comes from me. And it's maybe comes from some other artist, but not for me. And it says, help my unbelief. And so before people start thinking, what's wrong with Chris? What's happened to Chris? Let me explain. Mark 9. Mark 9. The most amazing. One of the most amazing stories. This dad has a. Has. This dad has a son who needs healing. And Jesus comes to his town. And I know we've. I mean, we're. The audience here, knows the Bible, I'm sure. And we know these stories. And sometimes we hear these stories and we just read them, go there. I mean, your son is needing healing and Jesus has come to your town. You would do anything to get in front of Jesus. And this dad brings his. And I have daughters now, so I understand how a dad would want. So he brings his son to Jesus and he says, would you have mercy on us and would you heal? He says, and I love the new living translation. And if you can, would you heal my child? And Jesus says, if I can? What do you mean, if I can?

[Chris Thomas]

What do you mean?

[Chris Tomlin]

What do you mean, if I can? It says, all things are possible for those who believe, which is the bumper sticker, right? That's what you would think. That's where you think the song would be. But it's what the dad says next.

[Matt]

So human.

[Chris Tomlin]

What the dad says next. I do believe, but help mom believe.

[Chris Thomas]

Yeah. Doesn't feel like I have enough right now.

[Chris Tomlin]

And who hasn't been there?

[Chris Thomas]

Exactly. Who.

[Chris Tomlin]

If you. I've been saying this recently. If you have not been there, you have not lived long enough on this earth. Because there's going to be moments in life And I love. Don't you love that? That's in the gospel. That's not a song that I just made up. That is from the gospel. This d standing in front of the healer of all healers and saying, I do believe you, but right now I'm struggling. And don't you love that Jesus didn't just go, well, guess What? You don't 100% believe. So I'm going to move on to the next person he healed that child. And I think for people maybe right now who just like I'm struggling, I feel like I love. The scripture says, when we're at our weakest, he's at our strongest. When you're at weakest point, God is. Strength is perfect. So that's why I wrote this. That's why this song is on there. I feel it sits right in the middle of this album for a reason, because it's where so many people are. It's where I've been in my life. And I hope that people are encouraged and they're helped by when they. When they hear this song.

[Chris Thomas]

All right, take a guess which was my favorite song. Any guess.

[Chris Tomlin]

Well, I'm going to take a guess that it's still the King.

[Chris Thomas]

That was pretty close because I played.

[Chris Tomlin]

It for the first time with you at that.

[Chris Thomas]

And you allowed us to actually play it at our Easter services this year before it was even released. Thank you for that. And it was hit because it talks about the. Not only the. The cross, but also verses on the Resurrection. But I love the ballads, man. I'm a ballader at heart.

[Chris Tomlin]

Yeah.

[Chris Thomas]

And he has done great things.

[Chris Tomlin]

Dude, I was going to say that one.

[Chris Thomas]

It's on repeat, like, and especially in my quiet time in the morning. It's just. And I'm not flattering you. I mean, it really is. I listened to it all the way to the office today. I had just had it on repeat. And is there a story behind that song? I mean, it's really ministering to me a lot.

[Chris Tomlin]

Again, Psalm 103. It's just the Psalm. Yep. It's all it is. As heavens are above the earth. So good. And as far as the east is from the west. So as far as he separated our sins from us and just finding a simple way to sing it, you know?

[Chris Thomas]

And it is simple, and I appreciate that. I think sometimes music gets so complicated, the more you think, the less you can actually worship. But when you can almost get lost in it. And that song has allowed me to do that. And then it. It. The music Is more ballad type, and it just. It quiets my soul. And I think. I don't know, I can speak for myself. I need. I need some quieting of my soul these days. And, bro, that song. People go listen to this song. It's really powerful.

[Chris Tomlin]

He has done great things, and I appreciate you bringing that up because it's one of those songs that I really wanted to. I feel like in so many ways, of this album, I went back almost 30 years to my. And I did, actually, because I put you're my king, Amazing love on this album, because if the king is still the king, and I want to bring that song back to the people, you know, it's funny. So, you know, you're playing it to Highlands College. You know, you're my amazing love. How can it be? And they're like, wow, it's one of Chris's great new songs, you know, because it's a whole new generation now, like, and. But I wanted. So I feel like there's so many elements of this record where it steps back into how I felt when I was first leading, when it was just me and a guitar and didn't have a bridge.

[Chris Thomas]

It's just. It's just two parts. Yeah, it's two parts. And even that. That simplicity of that, I don't know, my brother.

[Chris Tomlin]

My first song was We Fall down, and it's just two parts. And I keep saying. I keep going back to myself, talking to myself, and every time I'm writing with friends, I'm like, can we just do something that doesn't have to go to a bridge and a second verse and then get bigger and bigger and bigger and just be what it is? And so that song captures that to me.

[Chris Thomas]

And I would say that, you know, this is a grow leader podcast. We get a lot of pastors, leaders. You know, they're obviously enjoying just our conversation, but I think they come to our podcast, Matt, to get some takeaways of how to lead churches better. And I would say that as an instruction. You know, you just said it. That sometimes we're so into the, you know, the verse, chorus, bridge, get bigger, you know, and sometimes something needs to stay simple. And I would say it would be an important element to think about in a service that, man, don't rush through things. Slow down. The simple songs that just had those repeat how great is our God kind of repeat. You know, the simpler the song, the less you have to think. The less you have to think, the more you can tap into your spirit. I mean, C.S. lewis said that the perfect worship service was the one you were unaware of. That you. That you. You. You forgot what key, what, what. What light was moving. Like you got so unaware so that you could put your focus on Jesus. And there's something about that. Anyway, that song really.

[Chris Tomlin]

Can I say one thing to that?

[Chris Thomas]

Yeah.

[Chris Tomlin]

And it's just a phrase that I've used a long time. There's. There's gotta be a point in your service for those of you who are like, what kind of. There's gotta be a point in. As a leader in the service, especially for the worship leader, where people are free of words. That's what I say. They're free of arts. They're not. They're free of just. Okay, I gotta. What. What is it? Just. My soul's. My soul is singing to God because that's what. That's. What is the difference between this music.

[Chris Thomas]

Yeah.

[Chris Tomlin]

And all the other music of the world. You're. That's what I say every night. This is eternal. Your soul is singing to a living God. And let your soul. When your soul starts to sing. And it's just that I'm just free of like, I'm free of a screen. I'm free of what's. I just want my soul singing to God. You just want those moments where people just sense that. And that's what. That's where you're trying to lead people to.

[Chris Thomas]

It would gift that you would give people to because there is that spirit of heaviness. They come in heavy. And then sometimes worship can be heavy. So I think where sometimes we put heavy on heavy. And to have those breathing moments where people can touch the heart of God and receive that kind of comfort. Is there another song on the album that has a cool story attached to it that you'd want to tell? You know, I mean, I want to.

[Matt]

Know your favorite song. What's your favorite song on the album? And then maybe the same thing.

[Chris Tomlin]

My Father's World. Right now. My father's World.

[Chris Thomas]

Tell them the story of the one. That. Of the first hymn.

[Chris Tomlin]

So the first hymn is on there.

[Chris Thomas]

That's the cool. That's a cool story.

[Chris Tomlin]

Are you kidding me? So they. I. This. This amazing theologian named John Dixon. He's from Australia and he is a historian and a theologian. And he came to my. Me and my buddy Ben Fielding. If you don't know who Ben Fielding is, Bill Fielding is one of the great songwriters of our. Of our time. He wrote Goodness of God. He wrote Beautiful Name, wrote Mighty Save. I could go down the list lots of great songs.

[Chris Thomas]

He's a great guy. He's a good friend.

[Chris Tomlin]

Great, great guy. And he came to Ben and I and said, hey, I've got this project I'm working on. And there's been this. In a vault in Oxford has held this papyrus that has had this hymn. This piece of scrap paper that was found from the third century. This is from the 200s. Now, I grew up in a small little town. I didn't know what third century is. That's the two hundreds. Okay. The two hundreds is the earliest known hymn ever found of our faith outside the scripture. Obviously, the psalms are. You could say the Psalms are hymns. And there's some hymns in the New Testament outside the scripture. This is the earliest known scrap of paper ever found with a piece of music on it. The church was singing and it's only. And it's ripped and so you don't know the whole song, but there's some beautiful words. And he said, I would like to do a project to kind of speak to the early church and also speak. Bring this song maybe back. What would it be like to bring it back? And so there's a couple of interesting observations that I would not know know, but I think it's really interesting. So when you listen to this song called the First Hymn, it's going to sound like, you know, hopefully a modern song. You sound like. Because Ben and I. That's how Ben and I write. But there's a couple interesting things. One is the melody. There was melody notation on it.

[Chris Thomas]

There was notes on the page.

[Chris Tomlin]

Melody notations, not notes like, we know.

[Chris Thomas]

Okay.

[Chris Tomlin]

It's. It's an ancient writing.

[Chris Thomas]

Okay.

[Matt]

Shape singing kind of.

[Chris Tomlin]

Kind of thing. And it's very interesting. Like, he knows. He. He sang it to us, John. Did he. He's. He's a historian, like crazy. It's very weird. To my entire ears, it's like a. There's a lot of amens in this. In the lyric. And every amen was Amina. It's very interesting. He said this. He said one of the things is this was a very common. This would have been a very common melody of the time. This had been like a bar melody.

[Chris Thomas]

Oh, wow. There you go.

[Chris Tomlin]

So it wasn't like you think it's old, so it's got to be Gregorian chant sounding completely just a common man's melody of that. Of that day. And I was like, wow. And he said, could you guys take it to what you guys do today and take this lyric and see what it comes. So he said, I Want to tell you a couple things about this lyric. And one is it says, to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Amen. He said, now to us, we've heard that our whole life. He goes, you have to understand, this is the earliest known writing. He goes, that's not Father, Son, Holy Spirit is not in the Bible. As Father, Son, Holy Spirit, we take it, it's all in different places, but the writing of the Trinity as Father, Son, Holy Spirit, this is the earliest known place that's ever been found written. Because this dates the Council of Nicaea, it predates about 200 years. It's the earliest known writing of Father, Son, Holy Spirit ever been discovered. That's why it's in a vault. Basically. He goes, but the very last line is, says to the only giver of all good gifts, Amen. So it be to the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Amen. To the only giver of all good gifts, Amen. And he said, why that is significant? He said, because in that day in pagan worship, and this is so beautiful because pagan worship, to Zeus or whoever they were worshiping, the call to worship would be. They would come and say to the giver of all good gifts. That would be the call to worship. People would come and say to the giver of all good gifts that come before this God. He says, so for this little band of early church, that would be the. One of the most persecuted time in the history of the world. Most of them would probably have died given that must have lost their life for their faith. For this band of believers, this early band pushing it back against the culture of the day to say in their song with to the only giver of all good gifts, he said, that was such a statement to the culture. I love it. And amen. Amen. And so that's when you hear that. I hope that when you hear the song, you listen to it. And we're singing that to the giver of all good gifts. Only giver of all good gifts. I hope it just increases your faith to know that. And what's beautiful, this is a whole nother podcast. But what other music has 2000 years of country music? No hip hop, no rap, I mean pop, classical, not even close. 2000 years of singing and songs that we don't even. We haven't yet even understand. But it's just a reminder that we stand. We just. We're the next generation.

[Chris Thomas]

It makes me feel connected to the first church, the early church. You know, it kind of makes us, you know, part of that because we're all part of that family.

[Chris Tomlin]

Yeah.

[Chris Thomas]

You know, and it just. I don't know. There's a connection there. And of course, you guys called it the first hymn.

[Chris Tomlin]

The first hymn.

[Chris Thomas]

And it just. It's spectacular. I remember when you told the story at Holland's college when we were recording.

[Chris Tomlin]

Yes.

[Chris Thomas]

And man, I had some, like. It was a moment that you realize I'm joining with something that began that long ago. Yeah, it's really cool.

[Matt]

I think the entire project, there's a sense of, like, grounding and comfort. It's just like. Like, it's going to be okay.

[Chris Tomlin]

It's a thread that's woven through and it's incredible. And even. I'll say one more thing about the thread too. There's four songs that are emojis on the album. They're titles with emojis. And they're like, what? Why'd you do that? I have. I love musical pieces. I love these, like, selah pieces. These like, let's take a breath. And I've never really put them on a record before, but we always have so many beautiful music pieces when we're making music in the studio or backstage. One of them, him and my. My piano player Matt. He's incredible. He'll sit and just play stuff backstage. And it's just amazing. One day I walked in and I'm like, what is that? He goes, I don't know. Just playing. And I grabbed my phone, I put it on the. On the piano and just hit record. That's one of the emojis. It's. And it's the. And so when I got there, I thought, what do I call these pieces of music? And so I first thought, well, it'd be say love one, say la two. That. Which. What you think I'd call it? And I thought, nah, that's been done. Then I thought, Zamar. Zamar is the instrumental means the instrumental word of praise in the Hebrew. It's like, okay, Zamar one, Zamar. No. Then I had this idea. It's like, well, there's the crowns to cover. What if it was a. What if there's a crown? It's like the king is still the king. It's just these crowns that are these pieces of music. So they're like, well, team was like, that's cool. But you can't just have a crown because no one, if you put a crown to on an algorithm, it doesn't know which crown to play in streaming world. So I'm like, and how do you tell Alexa to play a crown? And so the things.

[Chris Thomas]

Things you got to think about in 2025.

[Chris Tomlin]

So we did a crown with like, the Father's World has an intro and it's a crown and a bird. Because the. Because of the lyric of the song. That one my. With my piano player is a crown with the person bowing. There's a crown across it. It's right before that ends. He has done great things, you know, just. So there's these little threads. If you just push play and let the music play. Y. I did it very intentionally.

[Chris Thomas]

And so before you go tell them what you're doing here. You want to. Can we. Can we tell them what you're doing?

[Chris Tomlin]

So there's a song on there that you never know what songs Rise Up. I love every song. My heart's in every song. And then I get playing them live. And I've been on this tour and every night I play this song, Jesus Saves. And I mean, people start singing at another level. I'm like, really? I thought it's a good song, but thought, okay. And I start playing Jesus Saves. And so I'm watching.

[Chris Thomas]

But it transitions from kind of a straightforward Jesus Saves to a little gospel.

[Chris Tomlin]

He did what I could not do. And he's got this.

[Chris Thomas]

Yeah, I've never heard you do, like some gospel flow like that.

[Chris Tomlin]

It's got soul to it. It's got the whole thing. It's a line that I've written. So this. Another little tab bit. I've written that line. He did what I could not do. I've tried to put that in so many songs and it's just never worked, never landed. And I finally found a place for it. And I've always. It's simple line, but I've always loved just that simple phrase. He did what I could not do. And so when he. When there. Where there was no way he made a way. And so that's the whole bridge. Well, I'm loving. I'm playing it. We're like, this is fun. We're doing this live. It was amazing at Highlands College and we did with the students. We're having fun. And. And then I'm watching one night America's Got Talent agt. My. My girls love that show. That's the show they want to watch all the time. So I have to watch it. And my girls. Dad can come watch it. So we're watching it. And this. This group from Birmingham comes on the Birmingham Youth Fellowship Choir. And Simon gives them the Golden Bu Buzzer. The Golden Buzzer, if you know what that is. That's the big deal that's like, you're going to the finals. I don't care what happens.

[Chris Thomas]

It bypasses the judging process. Confetti.

[Chris Tomlin]

I love you. Yeah, yeah. You're going.

[Chris Thomas]

You're to going.

[Chris Tomlin]

Simon, of all people, like, sees them, these kids and goes.

[Chris Thomas]

And they're singing gospel music.

[Chris Tomlin]

Straight up, faith gospel. That's awesome. And so I'm like. And I was on the bus and I looked at the. I looked at the guys. We were. I was watching it this one night on the bus, catching up, and. And I said, guys, wouldn't it be awesome if they sang Jesus Saves with us on. He did what I could not do. Could you just imagine that? And they're like, that would be so cool. And so reached out to Pastor Chris.

[Chris Thomas]

Picked up the phone, texted me. I was sitting on the couch with Tammy and we were. We. I think we were watching Jeopardy or. And all of a sudden, Chris Thomas. Hey, do you know that choir has been on agt? Like, no, but I'm sure we can connect.

[Chris Tomlin]

You can connect me. And I mean, it's Birmingham, right? It's right here in this city. And then I start. I get connected to them and they're like, we'd love to do it. Do you have a place where we can record? So once again, Chris.

[Chris Thomas]

Yes.

[Chris Tomlin]

Sorry.

[Chris Thomas]

Actually, it's not that. It's our delight. Light.

[Chris Tomlin]

So I thought, man, how beautiful. Like, the full circle, like, started here with the kids, then bringing in these precious kids from inner city Birmingham to do this and that have really made a pretty awesome little. Little dent in it out there, you know, that's your culture.

[Chris Thomas]

So, guys, get the album. Still the king. The king is still the king. It's spectacular. Download it. It's. I'm just telling you, man, it's the.

[Matt]

Link to the show notes. Hey, 18 albums. Is that correct?

[Chris Tomlin]

18, 18.

[Matt]

Hey, this. That's crazy. Can't wait for the 19th. I. I was at Shelby Farms in 2001 in the rain.

[Chris Tomlin]

You were?

[Chris Thomas]

Yeah.

[Chris Tomlin]

You were there at one day.

[Matt]

Insane. We fall down and it rained. And I don't know if I'd be here if I wasn't there. And so you're a part of that. So I appreciate you. And that's huge, man, what you bring to the church, man. Time. Time.

[Chris Thomas]

We love you, man.

[Chris Tomlin]

Honored to be. Thank you so much for the. Just the wide open doors that you are to me, but also to everybody, your resources. What I love is God's given you so much, and you're just like, hey, how can we. How can we give it? Thank you, man.

[Matt]

Thank you, Chris, Tom and everybody. Check out the new project. We'll link to it in the show notes as well. We'll see you next time on the Grow Leader podcast.