← GrowLeader Podcast with Chris Hodges
GrowLeader Podcast with Chris Hodges
89 | Patrick Lencioni - The 6 Types Of Working Genius - Chris Hodges
00:35:09
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- [00:01]
A
Hey, everybody, and welcome back to the Grow Leader Podcast, where we help you grow leaders who grow churches by helping them reach their full potential. My name's Matt. So glad to have you with us today. Today's episode's gonna be an incredible one. Pastor Chris just sat down with one of the world's leading voices on organizational health and leadership, Mr. Patrick Lencioni. Patrick is the founder and president of the Table Group, a firm dedicated to helping leaders build healthy organizations. He's written so many books. Thirteen books sold over 8 million copies of those books. Books you've heard of, like the Five Dysfunctions of a Team, the Advantage, the Ideal Team Player, A Personal Favorite, Death by Meeting. And these books have helped me and so many other leaders in their business and their education and their ministry leadership endeavors. In today's conversation, Patrick and PC Dive into one of his best tools, the six working geniuses. The working genius helps teams discover the type of work they're naturally wired to do and helps them know how to love it and excel at it. Like me, I'm an inventor and a galvanizer. That's my working genius. Go find out yours. And they're going to explore how this tool is transforming leadership teams everywhere and share some powerful insights on building trust, improving communication, and leading with clarity. It's practical. It's also inspiring. You're going to want to listen deeply to this conversation. Let's jump in. And here's PC And Patrick Lencioni.
- [01:25]
B
Well, I'm so delighted to have my good friend Patrick Lencioni. By the way, Pat, you're probably my favorite author, too. Let me just go ahead and throw that in there. I love, love, love your books, but more on that in just a second. I am so delighted to have Patrick Lencioni on the Grow Leader podcast. And we're gonna talk all things leadership. We're gonna talk about personalities. We're gonna talk about this. This incredibly brilliant idea called the working genius. If you don't know what that's all about, we're getting ready to bring a tool for you that's gonna help your organization just thrive when we understand how different people are wired. Pat, welcome to the show.
- [02:02]
C
It's great to be here. I wanted to say you are one of the few people that know how to say my name. I don't even correct people when they get it wrong, which is. Cause it's fine. But you got it exactly right.
- [02:11]
B
Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. And I appreciate you, my friend.
- [02:16]
C
And I want to say that church leaders are the Hungriest audience I speak to.
- [02:21]
B
Wow.
- [02:22]
C
It's wonderful. And which is good because I say to people who work in churches, what you do is more important than every other secular company out there. So have higher standards and want to do a better job. And I love the fact that so many church leaders use our stuff well.
- [02:35]
B
Thank you. You know who I think stirred that initially is John Maxwell. I think his.
- [02:40]
C
I think so, too. He was the first kind of crossover guy. Right.
- [02:42]
B
100%. And he just. He has stirred this leadership appetite. It flat out works, by the way. Let's go ahead and throw that in there, too. That when you. When you better yourself as a leader and you teach leadership in your organization, especially in churches, man, you're going to see the results of that. So it's pretty awesome. Well, I'm glad you're here. We're going to talk about your book, and we're going to help these churches break their growth barriers by understanding people a lot better. I want you to just kind of kick it off by talking about the whole foundation of the working genius. Why did you create it? What problem are you trying to solve? Kick us off, my friend.
- [03:22]
C
So I. Five years ago, I discovered it by accident. And when I say discovered it, it's like, God gives us everything. And I was very aware of that. But I was frustrated in my own job, in a company where I loved what I did. I bet pastors can relate to this. I love what I do. I love the people I do it with. Why do I get grumpy sometimes when I'm here and it's like I'm doing what I meant to do and I couldn't figure it out. And I was actually doing. This was right after Covid everything. And I was in California, so it was totally locked down. But we went back to the office and we were doing all this stuff on Zoom, and I was actually doing Chris a Zoom, a webinar teaching Catholic priests how to be better leaders.
- [04:02]
B
Wow.
- [04:03]
C
Right? I'm Catholic, and I loved that. I was, like, so excited. It's like this. I love talking to church leaders. And. And then afterward, I had to have a Zoom call with some of the staff that helped me put this on, who didn't do a very good job organizing it and everything like that. And I had to push them to do better. And I was really kind of frustrated. And then I went to another meeting where I got to come up with an idea around a podcast, and the woman that was with me said, why are you like that? I said, what do you mean? And she goes, you go from excited to frustrated to excited. And I knew I'd been doing it for 25 years.
- [04:36]
B
Wow. So you were solving the problem within yourself first.
- [04:40]
C
Absolutely. In fact, I didn't even think we were creating anything. I was just wanted to understand why I was like that. And I was asking myself, so why do I get frustrated and why do I get excited and what's going on? And it's when I'm doing this. And really there's three kinds of work and I like this kind, but really there's two kinds within each kind and there's six kinds of work. And these are the two I love. These ones I don't like at all. And I'm getting dragged into the things I'm not gifted in. And that's the problem. Well, I didn't know I was going to do anything with this, Chris. And yet one of our consultants saw the model on the whiteboard and I explained it to him. The next day, he's working with the CEO who's really frustrated. He explains the model and the guy has tears in his eyes and he's like, well, this explains it all right here. And we started testing it and talking to people and realized there was something universal. We built an assessment and. And it just took off. And I think it's because it's so simple and it's so true and everybody that looks at it, you know what it does? It helps us avoid unnecessary guilt and shame that we've been feeling all our lives. And it helps us know the gifts God gives us in doing things and the gifts he doesn't give us.
- [05:54]
B
Right.
- [05:55]
C
And so many people go around in life and go, pastors are some of my favorite people to work with. Right after we launched the model, a pastor wrote to me and he said, pat, I thought I was a fraud for 20 years being a pastor. I said, why? And he goes, I couldn't write a sermon to save my life. And he goes, my friends can go for a walk in the woods and come up with a three part series. And I grind and I grind and it just doesn't work. And he goes, then I took the working genius. I said, what are your types? And he told me, I said, so you like counseling people, don't you? You really like working one on one and when somebody comes to you in need, you're right there for them. And he's like, oh, I love that part of it. I said, yeah, see, not every pastor is the same. You know, those pastors that can Write a homily or a sermon. I've talked to a lot of them. I go, I don't really like one on one counseling. And they feel like a fraud because they're like, how can I be a pastor if I don't like doing that? It's like God didn't make any of us to do all of it.
- [06:50]
B
That is so good.
- [06:51]
C
And what a great thing when we realize we don't have to be all things to all people.
- [06:55]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So explain it to them. Explain the types, explain it. Give us this overview. And then I have got boatload of questions I want to ask you about it. In fact, by the way, I took the assessment, so I can't wait for you to comment.
- [07:07]
C
All right, so I'm ready talking about it.
- [07:08]
B
Oh, I need a little counseling myself, you know, so.
- [07:12]
C
So there's six types of work that are required in anything we do. You're. You're starting a church. You're. You're launching a new product in a company. You are selling your house. You are, you, you're planning a vacation. You are starting a new project. Any kind of work, okay, involves six different kinds of tasks. And two of those six are our working geniuses.
- [07:39]
B
Okay, that's the.
- [07:40]
C
That's like pouring coffee into a. Into a yeti mug and screwing the lid on, and it stays hot all day. It's like, how does this hold onto its energy? It's like, because. Cause you're meant to do it. Two of them are what we call your working competency. You're okay at it. You can do it. It's like pouring coffee into a Starbucks cup and putting a lid on it. It's gonna hold its heat for a while. There's two others that are your working frustration, which is like pouring coffee into a cup that's a little hole in the bottom. It just drains right out and it takes away our energy. It steals it. Everybody needs to know what they are. And so here's the six ones, okay, the six geniuses. The first one is at the highest level in terms of altitude. It's like head in the clouds. It's called the genius of wonder. Gosh, it'd be so interesting to go through the Bible and you can see, like, the genius of wonder is the genius that a person has, that they just ponder things and they're constantly asking questions and looking around and going, why are things like that? I wonder if there's a better way to do that. Maybe there's a better way for us to reach kids. They don't know the answer, but they're asking the question. And every great project, every great endeavor starts with somebody wondering. And yet, Chris, the people that have this as a genius have usually never been recognized as having it as a genius. They've been criticized for it. Like, why are you still asking questions? Why are your head up in the clouds? Come on, get this done. Certainly kids don't get rewarded for it when they're young, right? And yet it's a genius. And the people who discover that w wonder is their genius are like, oh, I was like this as a kid, and I felt so misunderstood. I have six people in my family, and four of them have the genius of wonder.
- [09:24]
B
Really?
- [09:25]
C
And it's so. And there's stuff going on up there that they can't even describe. And they're constantly asking questions. They're often like, get. Get hung up on things because they're like, I don't know if this is the right thing to do. It's just how God made them. So the genius of wonder comes first.
- [09:40]
B
Okay?
- [09:42]
C
Somebody asked that big question, like the woman did for me. She has a genius. She said, why are you like that? Next comes a genius of invention. Okay, I have this one. I love when somebody wonders something. And I say, let me try to figure it out. Let me come up with a solution. Let me think without any restraints, like, how we might be able to solve that problem. It's how I'm wired. I was like that as a kid. It wasn't really recognized. This is another thing people don't really get recognized in school for. But I have an innate desire to come up with new ideas. And sometimes at Chris, it's not appropriate. Sometimes it's like, hey, I'm glad you're like that. This is not the moment to do it. That's how you know it's your genius, because I want to do it all the time. So those first two, wonder and invention, that's called ideation. That's where new ideas come from. Okay, the next genius I love talking about, especially to church people, because it has different meanings. We call it discernment. Okay, now there's spiritual discernment. But this is about people that have just really good gut, feel, instinct, intuition. They recognize patterns, they see connections between things. And you can ask these people for advice about things they don't know a lot about, and they can kind of go, my gut is telling me this. And you're like, oh, my gosh, you were really close. It's not because they have knowledge, technical knowledge, or expertise. It's because God gave them this amazing ability to look at a messy situation and go, I think the answer's over there. And if you say, prove it to me, they're gonna be, I can't. This is just how I do things. A woman in my office is incredible at this. If we want to refinance our house or plan a vacation or I need to figure out what to wear to an event, everybody says, ask Tracy. And it's not because she's an expert. She just has really good judgment, and she's usually right. She edits my books. She has no experience in editing, but over the last 20 years, she's edited all my books. Because when Tracy says to me, this chapter doesn't work, I know it's right. So I trust her. The next genius is called galvanizing. This is the one that's not one of mine. I was doing it every day at work, and it was burning me out. And that's the genius of loving to get up in front of people and rally the troops and push them and break through things and say, come on, we can do it, and interrupting people and inspiring them and selling to them and motivating them. I love to do it once or twice, but the idea of having to go back and keep doing it and keep doing it exhausts me. And there are people in the world who wake up every day and say, I'll get up there again and again and again, okay. And then those two are called activation. In the middle, you get a new idea, and then you have to activate it. Then comes the next genius is called enablement. And this is a good enablement. Not enabling somebody to do something bad, but enabling others to do what they're trying to do. It's the person who has a gift, and it's a gift from God. When somebody says, I need help, they light up, and they're like, oh, yeah, what do you need? I want to help you. It doesn't even matter what kind of help you're asking for. They have a desire to come alongside. They're the fast. And in churches, we need these people so much. And it's a confusing thing for us Christians because we think they do it just because they're kind and kindness is required. But there are people that just love saying yes. And, like, you think about a nurse who every time the bell goes off in somebody's room, they're like, oh, he needs help. And for many of us, I'm like, and I feel. I used to feel so guilty as A Christian, like, oh, I don't want to do that. And there's certain people that just go, I love responding to the needs of others on their terms.
- [13:28]
B
Right, right.
- [13:29]
C
So enablement is a critical genius. I worked with a church group once that had nobody on their team that had enablement. And they're like, hey, I thought we were supposed to love each other. And everybody's like, yeah, but I want to love people by inventing, and I want to love people by discerning, and I want to love people. And it's like, enablement is a unique gift. And then the last genius, Chris, is called tenacity. And that is there are people who wake up every day and say, I just want to finish things. I want to blow through obstacles and close the deal. I want to do the last 10%. I want to make sure we get where we're going. Now, Chris, these last two that I said, enablement and tenacity, I have none of. They're my two working frustrations. And people will say, how did you write so many books if you have no tenacity? I'm like, because other people have made me finish. Because I get halfway through them, and I'm like, okay, I have another idea for a book. I'm gonna get started on that. And they're like, no, you're not. I would have written none if I didn't have people around me that filled in my gaps. And that's the beauty of this. God made us to need one another.
- [14:33]
B
And is that the application, too? Is that we need to make sure we have all of these geniuses on our teams. I mean, now that we understand these, like, what do we do? What do we do from here to become better organizations and to get more done?
- [14:47]
C
Teams fill this out, and then you create a team map, okay? And you look at your team, and you go, oh, my gosh, we have a total gap there. And usually people look at it and go, oh, that's why we. We're terrible at this. Or, oh, look at. We have a lot of people with that genius, and that's why we love when that happens. And you can look at a church, probably, like the people that run a church, and they'll look at their geniuses and go, oh, yeah, we have great inspiration, and we're asking all the right questions. It never starts on time, and we don't follow through, and we never collect. You know what I mean? And you'll be able to look at it, and it explains why you're the way you are, and it does so without the guilt of judgment. Because you know what happens, Chris, and this is why this is such a gift from God. When we, St. Francis of Assisi said, seek to understand more than to be understood. And we tend to judge people we don't understand. Like, if I were to look at a person who was a tenacity, really strong in tenacity, and I'm a creative type up here in the clouds, I might say, gosh, they're kind of anal. They're so worried about all the details all the time. Relax. And then they might look at me and go, man, I love Papa. He's so flaky. Gosh, the guy is flaky. And when you learn that we're wired this way, you suddenly have grace for somebody.
- [16:07]
B
And appreciation probably too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [16:10]
C
And I've learned to love my wife more because the things she's not good at are part of who she is. And instead of going, man, I wish you were better at that, I go, hey, praise God that the mistakes she and I make together are predictable. And it's just who we are. Grace, knowing another person makes all the difference.
- [16:34]
B
That's so cool. I really, really love it. So talk to me not only about the organizational side, but even how it helps you just individually. I mean, should we avoid that frustration at all costs or just what? We just have a better understanding of it when we're required to live in that? Talk to me about the application individually.
- [16:53]
C
It's a great question, and people ask this all the time, should I work on my frustrations? And the answer is no. No. Just know this. All of us have to do things in our frustration sometimes and offer that up and say, God, you know, I don't. You didn't give me this gift, but my kids need it right now or the people on my team need it. And I will commit to doing this, but I'm gonna tell everybody around me, you guys know I'm not good at this. And they're gonna go, we have grace for you. My son doesn't have tenacity. He works with me. And he'll say, hey, I have two hours of tenacity work to do. I'm going in the cave over there into an office, and if I don't come out in three hours, no, I'm probably dead, so come out and rescue me. And we know that he's doing something he doesn't love. It doesn't mean, like, well, you don't have to do. Just means our expectations for his experience with that and the Quality of it is going to be adjusted now, whenever possible, if you're working with another person and their genius and yours fit, and you can give them work that gives them joy, and you can take work away from them. And this is what's amazing. You go into a church and somebody who's in charge of youth ministry and somebody else is in outreach and somebody else is in worship, which is music. I had to learn that as a Catholic. And then other people are in administration. Well, even beyond their job descriptions, they might say, well, the youth minister loves this. Hey, could you do a little bit of this work? And nobody says, well, that's not in my area. They're like, oh, yeah, you're asking me to use my genius. And they're like, yeah. And it's my frustration, and it's one plus one equals five.
- [18:27]
B
Wow.
- [18:28]
C
But when we limit ourselves based on our departments and our job descriptions and don't see each other as a set of skills and deficiencies and joys and frustrations, we don't know how to tap into one another's geniuses. And so, yes, we all have to work, do things outside of our areas of genius. But the best teams will minimize how much time you have to spend in your frustrations. Use people to maximize the time they spend in their geniuses. And then what happens is they actually get better at the things they're bad at because they don't feel the pressure to perform, and they know they've been given grace. So that's a long answer to a short question.
- [19:10]
B
You know, one of the promises we make here at Grow Leader is that we provide resources and tools, but not just, you know, just for you to take them and try them. We guarantee some results. I mean, like, this will work if you apply it this way. And, of course, we want to grow because we feel like, you know, the work we're doing actually matters. These are eternal things that we're focused on. So we always say that, you know, it is God's will for you to grow because heaven and hell are real places, and this is real work. This is kingdom work. And so I am very motivated to offer tools to organizations and churches that's actually gonna. That they could tell that they did it right because it affects the bottom line. Tell me some stories of organizations, churches, if you have them, that when they took this, how it took them to another level.
- [19:58]
C
Well, I think what happens is. And I have to tell you, Chris, I've always been very bad at this. And I have 50 consultants around the world who use this stuff and I'll talk to people. I don't have good retroactive memory for like that thing.
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B
Okay.
- [20:13]
C
But so many churches, I think they're the biggest users of this. I mean, and organizations have said, we used to get frustrated at each other and now we're understanding each other and we've reorganized. So here's a good story. There was this company, it was multi billion dollar company. It's not a church, but we're all working to get stuff done. And they hadn't come up with a new product in 15 years. It was a technology company. They were selling legacy stuff and making their money on that. But everybody was frustrated that nobody ever came up with a new product. So we did the working genius and the executive team looked at it and said, and we realized nobody had wonder as an, as a, as a genius. So nobody was asking questions like, maybe there's a different way to do this. Maybe we should look in this area. And only one person had invention. And this is a technology company. And that person was their lawyer. Only the lawyer had invention. And so we're sitting there and they're like, what should we do? Well, we need to figure out how to get better at this and this. And somebody finally said to the lawyer, why don't we give you responsibility for new technology acquisition? And he was like, but I'm the lawyer. And they're like, but God gave you the gift. I don't even think they said it that way. You have the gift of invention, right? He goes, oh, man, I think I'd be good at it and I would really like it. So they reorganized in real time because they just, instead of looking at him as like the lawyer, they said, you're the inventor. Why don't we put you in a job that allows you to invent? And that, that pastor. It's like, I'm really bad at writing homilies and sermons. And it's like, yeah, find that, hey, I have a person in my organization two levels down that's great at wonder and invention. I'm going to bring them with me and we're going to work on that together in my own organization. I found a guy who was a lot younger, who loved galvanizing. And I said, you're going to be my chief galvanizing officer. And he said, but I'm too young. I don't have the senior. And I said, no, no, no, it's not a reward, it's a gift that you have. And he said, I would have so much fun if you actually let Me do that. And what happened was morale went up, my productivity went up, his productivity went up. And that's what happens in these organizations when they. It's like they're looking at each other for the first time and saying, I used to criticize you for things that I now celebrate in you. So those are some anecdotes. So many companies have said. It's changing everything about the way they're working.
- [22:42]
B
Of course, this fits into theology. I mean, Romans 12 says that, you know, we all have different gifts and we need each other. So, I mean, this is something that is not only practical, but it preaches pretty well, too. You know, this is how God made us. And the whole argument of 1 Corinthians, chapter 12 is that, you know, the. I can't say to the hand, I don't need you. You know, we need the whole body to be the body and to function in their own specific way. So I want to tell you, I took the assessment, of course, and I want to let you.
- [23:10]
C
Oh, yeah, yeah. What are you.
- [23:11]
B
So my working geniuses are tenacity and galvanizing.
- [23:15]
C
Okay. See? And it's amazing. And I love this because you're a pastor. There's a priest near me here, and he's kind of semi famous because he's an exorcist and he's the same personality as you, and he's the dearest priest. I love going to him and going to his Mass, but he's. You have what I would call. You're the butt kicker.
- [23:36]
B
Don't say that. My team can hear you right now. No, they're going. They're over there nodding. They're going to.
- [23:42]
C
You galvanize people and you finish things. Yeah. So you are the assertive driver. Now, virtue is different than your working genius. Humility, and Aquinas would say is a virtue and a practice that you have to nurture and decide you want to be so you can be a holy, humble man. But God gave you the gift of saying, I am going to go push, inspire, exhort those people. I'm not afraid to do it, and I'm going to not rest until we finished. You are that person. So the virtues of being a kind, forgiving, deep, loving person are there, but the way you do that. So this priest I know, Father Dan Rehill is his name. He worked on Wall street before he became a priest.
- [24:33]
B
Wow.
- [24:34]
C
And so he runs a. And he has, like, three different. He's like you. He's like, I got this going. I got this going. I got this Going. And he can do that because he knows how to ask other people. People that don't have galvanizing, but they have tenacity often go, oh, I'll just do it myself. But as you know, that doesn't multiply.
- [24:52]
B
Right.
- [24:54]
C
So you have the gift of galvanizing others and holding them accountable in love, which is love. And that's why. Do you know something? There's some other guy that started a church when you did, and he's a wi wonder and invention. And he has one church still.
- [25:10]
B
Yeah.
- [25:11]
C
And it's beautiful.
- [25:12]
B
Yeah.
- [25:13]
C
But it probably didn't grow. And maybe that's God's will because he just couldn't tap into the ability to get other people to do things.
- [25:24]
B
So how do I lean into it more now that I had that understanding? Is there anything I can do to. To even be better at this or to. You know what I'm saying? I mean, now that I know this, because I want to get to the frustrations too, and just let you speak about that, but talk to me about the, you know, getting.
- [25:40]
C
It's this. Make sure that the people around you know that this is how you're wired. Because you might have a tendency to feel guilty about doing this. You know, that's that unnecessary shit because GTs make people uncomfortable sometimes because they require a lot of them. But that's a gift. That's love. And too often in the world today, we think that actually holding people accountable is not. Well, it's actually cruel not to ask more of people when they can do more. And so it's giving yourself permission to say to people, hey, this is how I'm wired. This is how God made me, and I'm actually honoring the gifts he gave me and I don't have to feel guilty about that anymore. And for the people on your team that are listening to it, they might go, well, how can he be a man of God and so kind, but man, does he hold me accountable. Oh, that's actually his gift.
- [26:24]
B
Right, right, right.
- [26:26]
C
So I would say just accept it, understand it, and communicate it to the people around so that you will not feel guilty about it, but realize you are being the person God's made you to be.
- [26:36]
B
And it probably helps if they know what theirs is too. I mean, so when we all do this all as a team, it actually enlightens everyone all the more. So my working frustrations, I don't even know if I agreed with the assessment, by the way. I mean, it is what it is. That's probably what a GT would say, but anyway. But my working frustrations were the discernment and invention. And I thought discernment would be actually a strength. I feel like I am quite discerning. I thought wonder and invention would have been at the frustration. But anyway. Well, let me be very clear.
- [27:11]
C
Life is qualitative, not quantitative. So when people take this, if you look at your report, it says in there, this is how you scored. But go look at the descriptions of your pairings. And if you might look at it and say, oh, the way I answered that question, you know, it has to resonate, it has to be real. Go home and talk to your wife about it, you know, and to others, and they will go, no, I think you might have. Cause you need to answer it in the most kind of raw, naked way possible. And sometimes we do it in light of how we're thinking at work that day. But discernment in this case just says, like, I've had CEOs that had discernment in their bottom. And what they said is, hey, all the data can say this and all the information can say this, but somebody else might look at it and go, I think you're missing something. And I might miss that because I'm not tapping. I'm looking at for evidence as opposed to relying on my gut.
- [28:02]
B
Okay, so what do I do about having this as a working frustration?
- [28:06]
C
The di even more so is to go to the people around you and say, just so you know, this is not. But make sure you believe it, right? And say. Or make sure that you can go, I'm. Because some people are actually by. By virtue of their wounds or their past, they get pretty good at all six. It doesn't mean that gives them joy. It doesn't mean like, like if I said to you, Chris, hey, there's these people that work for you. They want you to remind them why they're working on this and they want you to help them get focused so they can finish this. Okay, do you go, yeah, I'll do that. That would exhaust me. If I said to you, hey, Chris, we're going to have a brainstorming meeting and there's going to be no results coming out of that meeting. We're just going to go in a room and throw things against the wall and maybe talk about a little bit. And do you go like, yeah, I don't think I want to go, Yeah.
- [29:03]
B
I would have actually said and come tell me what you guys all decided. So I.
- [29:07]
C
So this is probably yours. Yeah, so this. Because I used to turn Every meeting into an ID meeting, a DI meeting, which was like, let's brainstorm. Some meetings are not supposed to be that. It's like, no, no, no. We're going to go to the meeting and identify obstacles and solve problems and finish this.
- [29:26]
B
Right.
- [29:27]
C
And you might be. And you're more comfortable with that now. You might have. This is something around wounds. Sometimes when we're. When we feel like we have to be high achievers because we're not enough, and when we're younger and a lot of people that are high achievers and you're certainly one of them, look back in their life and say, yeah, I've always felt like I wasn't quite enough. You learn to get pretty good. And even the stuff you're. You're not meant to.
- [29:48]
B
Yeah.
- [29:49]
C
Because you know, it'll help. The question is, does it give you joy and energy? Right. Like, does that. That brainstorming meeting, Chris, if somebody says, hey, you have a three hour brainstorming meeting this morning, I'm like, I can't wait to get to work.
- [30:01]
B
Yeah. Well, my frustrations would be in places like counsel. Like you mentioned the guy who loves to counsel. I mean, that just when I do it, and I do have to do it, it sucks the life out of me, you know?
- [30:12]
C
Yeah. And think about the apostles. You know, it's like they all had different working geniuses.
- [30:19]
B
Right, Right.
- [30:21]
C
And you would be like, yeah, I'll run the church.
- [30:25]
B
Yeah.
- [30:25]
C
And somebody else said, can I just sit over there? And when somebody wanders by and they look sad, I'll go sit down on a rock and talk to them. And there's saints with every quality, every combination.
- [30:37]
B
Yeah. So obviously there's so much application of this, but if a pastor is listening to this right now, what are the steps like? Man, I'm convinced I need to take these steps. I want to build a great team. I want to, you know, do the assessment, just talk about the steps. If you were the pastor hearing all this and you wanted to apply this, what. Give us. Give us, like the next. Because we know we're in a season right now where a lot of churches are looking back over the year, assessing how we did, and they're actually building into new things in the brand new year. A lot of us that follow the models that we teach, they're gonna be having beginning of year staff meetings that are gonna be that year's focuses for growth and for impact. So kind of close this podcast out with the application. If they wanted to take the next.
- [31:25]
C
Step, I'd Say, go take the assessment and digest it. And the report is rich and it gives you all the combinations and everything, and really digest it and talk to your spouse about it. And then go sit down with your team and say, this is me. And they're gonna say things like, no, duh. You're gonna go, hey, you know something? I realize I'm not good at this. And it might be the first time they felt permission to say, yeah, you really aren't very good at that. And you're gonna be like, yeah. And it's not criticism to remind me of that. It's actually just what's true and this is what I'm good at and all that. Then have them take it and look at the team map. People will start giving themselves, giving one another feedback in loving, even positive, humorous ways. And they're going to start saying things to one another that before they did it would have felt like a criticism. And now it's just an affirmation.
- [32:17]
B
Right.
- [32:18]
C
And a clarification of what they probably already knew. And it will. And you will then go, hey, going into the new year, why don't we move some of those responsibilities over there? And people are gonna go, you mean you're gonna let me do that? And somebody else is gonna go, you mean you're gonna not make me do that? And you're gonna go, yeah. And then you're gonna, oh. And people will. From the very first, in meetings, people are gonna start using the language.
- [32:47]
B
Yeah.
- [32:47]
C
And when you go to your meeting, also use the language and just go, hey, is this an ID meeting where we're coming up with a new idea and evaluating, or is this a get meeting where we're actually finishing things and trying to figure out how we're going to get it done? And it's so fun when people go, hey, I'm a gt, so if you're having an ID meeting, I'll sit here. But it's not going to be easy for me, and vice versa. And hey, Pat, you're an id. We're going to go to this meeting. We're launching the new program tomorrow. So I know you're going to come up with a new idea and just keep it to yourself because it's way too late. And the laugh. Yeah, yeah, they'll laugh about, in the past, they just said, oh, no, the boss is going to come up with a new idea. Or, oh, no, the boss is going to talk about the budget. You know, that's so good.
- [33:31]
B
Where do they find it? Where do they find the working genius.
- [33:33]
C
Go to workinggenius.com One word, working genius. Two GS in the middle and everything's right. There's all kind of videos and resources that you can get to the team map and all that stuff. And we priced it very low. Our good friend Dave Ramsey, when I first came out with this, and he. He was involved in the early days, we used him as a guinea pig. And he said, pat, you should have charged more for this. This changes organizations. And I was like, you know, Dave, we just want every person to do this. Yeah, we want people. We have a youth version that you can give to your kids when you're teenagers. We just want it changed. The way I parent. When I finally understood what my kids genius is and what their frustrations were, I had to have different expectations. So go to workinggenius.com, everything's right there.
- [34:11]
B
Well, I can tell you, my friend, there probably isn't another author that has helped me more in my leadership than you. For sure. Praise God as a teacher. I mean, from Death by Meeting to Five Dysfunctions, my personal favorite, the Four Obsessions. I built the organizational structure of Church of the Highlands around the advantage. My friend, you really have. I'm serious. I'm not floating your boat here. I'm telling you the truth. It really has helped us in a tremendous way. It really has.
- [34:39]
C
Thanks, Chris. You know, my dad always said that the Four Obsessions was my best book. God rest his soul.
- [34:43]
B
I love it.
- [34:44]
C
I think that's your best one. And then Death by Meeting. I've had more priests and ministers comment on that one than anybody. There must be something going on at churches where the meetings are just like, no, not another one.
- [34:55]
B
Well, thank you so much, my friend, Patrick Lencioni. Guys, please go get his books. Check out workinggenius.com, we'll put all that in the show notes. God bless you all.