675: A Thanksgiving Blast from the Past with Tim Ferriss

Summary

Grumpy Old Geeks Podcast Episode 675
Title: A Thanksgiving Blast from the Past with Tim Ferriss
Release Date: November 30, 2024
Hosts: Jason DeFilippo & Brian Schulmeister
Guest: Tim Ferriss

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Introduction and Episode Context

In this special Thanksgiving episode, hosts Jason DeFilippo and Brian Schulmeister revisit a previous episode featuring renowned author and podcaster Tim Ferriss. Released over a decade ago, this archived episode offers insightful discussions that remain relevant today. Jason humorously recounts the challenges of restoring the original tracks and experimenting with podcast enhancement tools, setting a nostalgic yet informative tone for the session.

Jason DeFilippo [00:40]:
“Welcome to Grumpy Old Geeks. Hope you had a fantastic Thanksgiving if you live in the United States of America… this is episode 36 of Grumpy Old Geeks where our friend Tim Ferriss joined us for the first time.”

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Tim Ferriss' Ventures into Television

Tim Ferriss delves into his journey into the television industry, detailing both his aspirations and the hurdles he faced. Discussing his past experiences with the History Channel and his current project with ZPZ Productions—a team known for authentic and gritty content like Anthony Bourdain's No Reservations—Ferriss emphasizes the importance of creative control and collaboration.

Tim Ferriss [04:19]:
“TV is something that I've been fascinated by for many years, but I had some very souring experiences trying to get involved with television.”

He highlights the complexities of TV production, from the sheer volume of footage to the rigorous editing process required to create a compelling half-hour episode. Ferriss candidly shares the physical and mental toll of producing a TV series, especially one that demands high-intensity activities like parkour and Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

Tim Ferriss [04:47]:
“It's really, really difficult because… it's meant really, really long days for everyone involved because we are having to capture a lot of footage and then kind of curate it.”

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Book Club Initiative: Reviving Influential Works

Ferriss introduces his innovative Book Club project, aimed at resurrecting impactful yet overlooked books. By acquiring and producing audiobooks for these works, he not only amplifies their reach but also ensures that authors receive due recognition and royalties.

Tim Ferriss [25:00]:
“I've tasked down these rights, buy them, and print the fucker myself… and share them with my audience.”

He recounts the successful collaboration with Rolf Potts, author of Vagabonding, which resulted in a highly acclaimed audiobook that soared in popularity, even outperforming mainstream titles like The Hunger Games on Audible. Ferriss underscores the dual benefit of his Book Club: promoting valuable literature and providing authors with enhanced visibility and income.

Tim Ferriss [28:27]:
“The audiobook's done extremely well… and it stuck there for quite a while, and I think it's now at around 3,000.”

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Exploring the Quantified Self Movement

The conversation shifts to the burgeoning field of Quantified Self, where Ferriss shares his insights and involvement with startups aiming to revolutionize personal health monitoring. He discusses the development of non-invasive biomarker tracking technologies and the challenges of making health data actionable for the average user.

Tim Ferriss [40:02]:
“I'm involved with a startup that is developing sort of car-related accelerometer data to modify your driving behaviors…”

Ferriss also touches on the potential of transcranial direct current stimulation (TDCS) in enhancing cognitive and physical performance, highlighting both its promising applications and the ethical considerations surrounding its use.

Tim Ferriss [43:55]:
“TDCS… improve performance… I have a lot of concern about DIY brain stimulation devices.”

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Privacy, Data Security, and Ethical Concerns

A critical segment of the discussion revolves around the implications of data privacy in the age of pervasive self-tracking technologies. Ferriss expresses deep concerns about the misuse of genetic and biometric data, emphasizing the need for stringent security measures and ethical standards.

Tim Ferriss [45:21]:
“Genetic information is really hard to use proactively as an individual, but it's really easy to have it used against you.”

He warns against the potential for malicious exploitation of personal data, such as targeted bioattacks based on genetic vulnerabilities, and advocates for proactive strategies like seed incorrect information to safeguard one's privacy.

Tim Ferriss [50:58]:
“If you are trying to avoid problems related to privacy, sometimes you cannot prevent your data from being released or found. But what you can do is seed incorrect information.”

Brian Schulmeister underscores these points, highlighting the lack of robust security protocols in emerging startups and the dangers of data commodification.

Brian Schulmeister [50:12]:
“If these companies happen to unfortunately go under for any reason, that stuff gets sold off as assets.”

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Meta-Learning Applied to Physical Skills: Tango and Beyond

Addressing a listener's question, Ferriss elucidates how meta-learning principles from his book The Four Hour Chef can be effectively applied to mastering physical disciplines like Argentine Tango. He outlines his unconventional approach of learning the female role first to enhance his leading capabilities, coupled with meticulous analysis of top competitors to identify and adopt unspoken techniques.

Tim Ferriss [54:52]:
“The way that I progressed in tango as quickly as I did… was questioning the conventional ordering of how one learns tango.”

Ferriss emphasizes the importance of active practice, self-assessment, and iterative learning through real-world application, drawing parallels to language acquisition and other skill-based endeavors.

Tim Ferriss [57:35]:
“Does the Meta learning from the 4 Hour Chef apply to physical or somatic skills? Absolutely. A hundred percent.”

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Reflections on the Four Hour Workweek in the Modern Context

The hosts revisit Ferriss' seminal work, The Four Hour Workweek, discussing its relevance in today's hyper-connected, always-on work environment. Ferriss challenges the notion that constant availability is a necessity, sharing his personal strategies for disconnecting and automating business processes to enhance productivity and personal well-being.

Tim Ferriss [58:29]:
“Implementing what I recommended, despite the fact that I was running a company and got plenty of email, was relative to now, much, much easier for me.”

He recommends resources like Breaking the Time Barrier and The E Myth Revisited to help listeners transition from time-bound service models to scalable product-based businesses, thereby reducing stress and increasing operational efficiency.

Tim Ferriss [58:57]:
“The principles in the four hour workweek are as relevant, probably more important than even in 2007 or 2009… continually being connected… is really fucking people up.”

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Lifestyle Hacks: Enhancing Sleep Quality

Wrapping up the episode, Ferriss shares practical tips for improving sleep, including the use of honey as a natural sleep aid and the application of blue-light filtering software like Flux to reduce sleep-disrupting light exposure.

Tim Ferriss [67:58]:
“Flux is fantastic. So I think all those things in combination are super, super helpful.”

He discusses his personal regimen, which incorporates natural remedies and technology tools to combat insomnia and promote restful sleep, emphasizing the cumulative benefits of these lifestyle adjustments.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with a warm exchange of gratitude and well-wishes for the Thanksgiving holiday. Ferriss expresses enthusiasm for future collaborations and ongoing projects, leaving listeners with a sense of anticipation for more insightful discussions.

Tim Ferriss [69:25]:
“Have a good night.”

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Notable Quotes

• Tim Ferriss [04:40]:
  “It's very difficult to make reality TV that is actually reality.”

• Tim Ferriss [25:00]:
  “I'm taking books that I think never got the attention they deserve, that have had a huge impact on me, and sharing them with my audience.”

• Tim Ferriss [43:55]:
  “It's very premature to go to Kickstarter and create devices that allow people to self stimulate their brains with electricity.”

• Tim Ferriss [58:29]:
  “The principles in the four hour workweek are as relevant, probably more important than even in 2007 or 2009.”

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Key Takeaways

1. Creative Control in Media: Ferriss underscores the importance of maintaining creative autonomy in television projects to ensure authentic and meaningful content.

2. Revitalizing Influential Literature: Through his Book Club initiative, Ferriss leverages his platform to resurrect and promote significant yet overlooked literary works, benefiting both authors and readers.

3. Advancements in Quantified Self: The discussion highlights emerging technologies in health monitoring and the ethical considerations they entail, particularly concerning data privacy.

4. Applying Meta-Learning to Physical Skills: Ferriss demonstrates how strategic, analytical approaches to learning can accelerate proficiency in complex physical disciplines.

5. Relevance of The Four Hour Workweek Today: Amidst an era of relentless connectivity, Ferriss reaffirms the enduring relevance of his work's principles, advocating for smarter work practices and lifestyle balance.

6. Sleep Optimization Techniques: Practical advice on improving sleep quality through natural supplements and technology interventions is shared, emphasizing holistic well-being.

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This episode offers a rich blend of personal anecdotes, professional insights, and practical advice, making it a valuable listen for enthusiasts of technology, self-improvement, and lifestyle optimization.

Transcript

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[Brian Schulmeister]

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[Tim Ferriss]

Free top podcasts included with your prime membership. To start listening, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to Amazon.com.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Ad free podcast, that's Amazon.com adfreepodcast to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads.

[Jason DeFilippo]

Grumpy Old Geeks, a weekly talk show hosted by Brian Schulmeister and Jason DeFilippo discussing the finer points of what went.

[Tim Ferriss]

Wrong on the Internet and who's to blame.

[Jason DeFilippo]

Welcome to Grumpy Old Geeks. Hope you had a fantastic Thanksgiving if you live in the United States of America. What we wanted to do this week was pull one from the archives so we could go enjoy our stuffing. Well, at least I could. Brian's up in Canada doing God knows what to those mooses. Anyway, this is episode 36 of Grumpy Old Geeks where our friend Tim Ferriss joined us for the first time. So it is a blast from the past. And this is back. This is over 10 years old now, so it's kind of fun to go back and listen to the old days. I tried to clean it up as best I could, but the original tracks are lost to the sands of time, unfortunately. And by the way, I did try that new fancy pants AI tool that Adobe has out for podcast enhancement. Well, that didn't work. I tried it and it made us all sound exactly the same. So if you're a podcaster out there and you're trying it, don't try it on tracks with more than one person because it will try and make everybody sound the same. Anyway, I hope you enjoy this blast from the past and we will be back next week with a shiny, brand new episode. And I have to say that I hope over the holiday that you enjoyed your deliveroo.

[Tim Ferriss]

Welcome, our guest.

[Guest]

So today we're here with Mr. Tim Ferriss, old buddy of mine from the old days back in San Francisco. I think we met right before your first book launch.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, we did. Absolutely. I think it was through MJ Kim. Is that right?

[Guest]

That's right. That's right.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Because your first book release party was at her birthday party, wasn't it?

[Tim Ferriss]

Birthday party. Which was super confusing for everybody, but yes, it was.

[Guest]

Yeah. And I got to see you before that at the Ignite Talk. That first Ignite Talk.

[Tim Ferriss]

You did the Ignite Talk@Web 2.0 back in the day. I think that was the Web 2.0 Ignite. That I wasn't aware was actually a competition for the big stage. So we did the drunken ignite presentation for five minutes in front of a crowd of beer drinking programmers of maybe whatever, 150 people. And then they're like, congratulations. So tomorrow I'm like, tomorrow what? And they go, you get to talk in front of 3,000 people. And I pooped my Pampers and then had to prepare for it.

[Guest]

Well, I think you're probably used to it by now. You've gotten gotten the hang of it.

[Tim Ferriss]

I've done a bit more. It's funny to watch that very initial ignite talk, which is on YouTube because I pace at like speed walking speed back and forth the entire time I'm talking. It's pretty hilarious. I'm so nervous and it's so obvious.

[Guest]

Yeah, those were fun times. That was right before pretty much everybody that we know kind of blew up. Kevin Rose blew up after that and God, all those guys.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, it's been a wild journey, man, for sure.

[Guest]

So now you're doing tv. What's up with that?

[Tim Ferriss]

Who would have thunk it? Well, TV is something that I've been fascinated by for many years, but I had some very souring experiences trying to get involved with television. Generally speaking. Not always generally speaking. I have a lot of trouble with the kind of duplicitous nature of a lot of entertainment. And I'm too Asperger's to just communicate with that crowd very well, which usually ends up biting me. So the reason I'm doing TV now as opposed to earlier is because this is really the first time that I found a team I gelled with and also felt like I had the leverage to get the creative controls and approvals that would ensure that it wouldn't become, you know, the Real Wives of Orange County. Lifestyle edition with Tim Ferriss or something like that.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Yeah, I definitely felt that I'd watched your first episode earlier today because it's online for free, of course, which is a smart move as well. It definitely felt like you had control of this. This was definitely an authentic you production as opposed to you getting shoehorned into something you didn't want to do.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, yeah, no, and I appreciate that. It's very difficult to make reality TV that is actually reality. And I'm in the middle of production still. We've done eight episodes, we have five more and it is fucking punishing. It is really, really, really difficult because if you think about it, it's like, okay, cool, like you'll just do your thing. We'll film it and then we'll take out all the epiphanies and cool stuff and make an amazing show. Well, there are a few challenges. The first is that a half hour show is actually 21 minutes, 20 seconds or something like that. It is really, really short. The second is that it turns out you can't just film all the time and then crush post production by sending them 50 hours of footage. They can't even watch it all. So there's a lot of pre planning that has to go into this stuff and it's meant really, really long days for everyone involved because we are having to capture a lot of footage and then kind of curate it before we send it to post production since we're editing maybe three or four episodes at a time as we are filming simultaneously. So yeah, it's, it's wild, man. It's, it's quite something else. But I'm, I'm really happy with how the episodes are coming so far.

[Guest]

Yeah, it's cool. And this isn't your first one. You did the. Was it for Discovery the first time around?

[Tim Ferriss]

It was for History Channel.

[Guest]

History Channel, that's right.

[Tim Ferriss]

Did a pilot with a very similar thesis. Right. Because this is kind of, I mean, you know, this, this is kind of what I do anyway. So, you know, this is just the natural course of all the weird experimentation that I do. And I was always kicking myself for not catching any of the, or very few of the experiments on video for say the four Hour Body. And did the pilot with History Channel back in the day for Japanese horseback archery, the Yabusame. And that was an hour long show, which means 40 minutes roughly. And it went well. But that was a situation that really gave me sort of a once bitten, twice shy feeling about television because at the end of the day, if there was any type of creative debate, and at that point I had no leverage because that was actually filmed before the four hour workweek really hit a bit. Really hit it big. At the end of the day it was, hey, listen, you're fucking talent and we're the producers, so sit down and shut up and pat your head and let us make all the decisions about creative. Which is a nightmare for me this time around. I'm a co executive producer and I'm also working with a production company, ZPZ or 0.0, which makes really good gritty verite stuff like Anthony Bourdain's. No reservations.

[Guest]

I was going to say, isn't that Anthony Bourdain's team?

[Tim Ferriss]

Yes. Anthony Bourdain's team. So I actually did the deal with Turner Broadcasting first and then found the production company. And the way it usually works is the production company will find talent, sign them to a really onerous hold agreement, and then go to the broadcast networks or the broadcaster of some type, the network sell it, and then they own the relationship with the distributor and therefore all the power. And that's just not at all what I wanted to do. So it was really unorthodox. I mean, I don't have an agent, don't have a manager, just a really good lawyer. And so far that has worked out. We'll see where it goes.

[Guest]

Less fees to split too.

[Tim Ferriss]

Exactly. Yeah. Fewer master fees.

[Brian Schulmeister]

I've got to say though, I was a little surprised that you decided to go to kind of. Well, not that that network is particularly your normal broadcast TV network, but I was a little surprised because you seem to have based most of your career so far on kind of just going straight direct Internet, et cetera, et cetera. What was your thought process about deciding to go ahead and just go, all right, I'm going to go on major broadcast tv?

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, that's a great question. I debated this back and forth a lot because I felt like I could probably go on Kickstarter and raise enough to bootstrap a pretty sweet series. And I'd also done the trailers, the book trailers before as kind of a warmup to production. And I was really happy with how this turned out and met a lot of people who could be part of the team. Ultimately, I decided a few things. Number one is that living in San Francisco or New York City, it's really. Or Los Angeles, any major coastal city, let's say it's very easy to believe that everyone has an iPhone and everyone uses Netflix or Roku or something like that. But the reality is, at least for, I would say, and I think obviously technology advancing exponentially as it is, this could be overestimated. But at least for the next, say two years, broadcast television, whether that's network or cable, is very powerful. It's an extremely effective Archimedes lever if you hit it big, right? So it's even more, I would say, extreme than the world of books. Books are very hits driven and a handful of books out of the many, many tens or hundreds of thousands published will generate the vast majority of revenue in the TV world. I think the polar opposites are even more extreme, where TB is really not going to help me much at all unless it is a really big hit. This is a spin at the Roulette table in a major way, right? Yeah. Because even moderately successful TV really doesn't have the penetration and distribution that will affect everything else that I'm doing. However, if it pops, like say a no Reservations or Mythbusters or anything like that, I don't expect it to be Duck Dynasty or anything. But if it pops, which is a hilarious show by the way, if it pops, then it could really be the domino that topples many others and facilitates all these other areas of my life. But just to add on to the sort of the debate that I had internally, I also felt it would be smart to work with a world class production company at length on a series as an education. So as a perhaps first step towards later doing more myself, to really view this as a graduate program.

[Brian Schulmeister]

It's almost like a paid internship.

[Tim Ferriss]

It's a paid internship where I get to check stuff off my bucket list, which is pretty sweet.

[Brian Schulmeister]

I think that's a really smart way to go about it too, because I think what we're seeing so often now is so many people are rushing off to Kickstarter and then finding themselves in waters that they can't even imagine. They're just in over their head immediately. So you're going about it with a great team around you and doing the best possible production you can ever do. And then if you want to go back later and do it yourself, you know all the pitfalls.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, exactly. And I will know a lot of people as well. And the fact of the matter is, holy shit. I had no fucking idea how goddamn complicated putting together good TV is. It is so involved and there are so many spinning plates. It is mind boggling, especially if you're doing something really masochistic and insane like trying to do 13 episodes in 13 weeks straight, which is just.

[Guest]

That's ridiculous.

[Tim Ferriss]

Suicide mission. Particularly when you're, when you're, when you're doing stupid shit like jumping off buildings and trying to learn parkour and then you're like, oh, let me roll like those two dozen injuries into the next episode and let me go do Brazilian jiu jitsu and get my head choked off 14 times in the first day and then get my, my ribs torn to pieces. Yeah, I am really beat up.

[Guest]

So when you, when you, when you were scheduling the shows, did you factor in injuries as you, as you place the episodes, or is that something for season two, now that you've kind of learned your lesson?

[Tim Ferriss]

You know, I did actually factor them in. So the way that we filmed it tends to go in a cycle of like very, very physical and high injury potential to slightly physical and more mental where there's less injury potential. Although you could maybe die in some of them. Like rally car racing is a little bit physical or drumming is a little bit physical, but you're probably not going to maim yourself then. Very highly mental stuff. So like learning languages is one episode or building a business. We're doing an episode on building a business. And what I underestimated, I guess was how long injuries would persist. Like my legs are still destroyed from the first episode, which was Parkour. That was the first one we filmed. But I got so maimed that the first episode that's getting broadcast is the drumming.

[Guest]

Yeah, man, I can't believe you did parkour. You're not a spring chicken anymore, you know.

[Tim Ferriss]

I'm not a spring chicken. Yeah. And like in retrospect I'm like, huh, you know, maybe like 36 year old dude who has messed up joints to begin with, who's way too heavy really to be jumping off high walls. Like shouldn't try to be James Bond. You know, like maybe that's, maybe that's the way it should go. But no regrets. And the other thing is, the point of the show is not to create a Tim Ferriss highlight reel. So there's plenty of me screwing up face planting. And not all of these episodes have storybook endings, which is exactly kind of how I wanted it to be, if that makes sense. Because I want other people to believe they can replicate a lot of this stuff, which I believe.

[Jason DeFilippo]

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[Tim Ferriss]

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[Brian Schulmeister]

Yeah, actually, I think, I think that's why you made a really good choice going with the drumming episode as your first episode too. Because, well, first off, you've got the whole music element and the rockstar thing and you know, you got to wear snakeskin pants, which who can complain about that? But it was actually cool because when I started to watch it as a musician myself and working within the industry, I was like, there's no fucking way this guy's going to learn how to play drums without knowing a note of music in a way. And you did learn, but not really. Like you couldn't do the fills but you got enough. Like as you've always said, you kind of do that 80% focus and you got enough to be able to get through the song. But it was great to fucking watch and I couldn't actually believe it and I was cheering for you at the end. So.

[Tim Ferriss]

No, I appreciate that. And you know what? I would love to do, although it's so difficult to do this with multiple cameras, is to put up the whole song because I actually nailed probably like 60% of the fills and I left out some of the gnarlier stuff. But that was a stressful episode.

[Brian Schulmeister]

I just. The editing on it was fantastic because the cuts to Stuart Copeland, especially when he went off. And I just remember because I was a huge Police fan and he hated Sting about getting in his face in the middle of shows. And he warned you about that. And then you had a guy climbing on your kit while you were trying to play.

[Guest]

Yeah. I was going to ask, was that actually filmed in order or was that like a setup after because it was so perfect.

[Tim Ferriss]

Oh, no, no, no. That was absolutely true to reality. No scripting, no nothing. It's like he, you know, Stuart warned me and then. Exactly that happened. I did not expect Kelly, the lead singer, to get up on the drum kit. That was extremely nerve wracking, particularly. I'm not sure if you could actually pick it out, but when you're holding the groove like you need your snare drum. And he put his foot right on the snare drum and it was just like, now kid, what are you going to do? And I was like, I'm not this good, bro. I'm not this good.

[Guest]

We could have given a little stick to the hi hats and he might have gotten down.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, exactly.

[Guest]

A little sack tap would probably fix that.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah. There's the only. What's so tough for me is having these episodes cut down to 21 and a half minutes. Because this could easily, easily have been an hour long show, 40 minute show. And there's so many good scenes. But that's the challenge with any kind of editing, whether it's a book. I cut 250 pages from my last book. You really have to sacrifice some of your children, which is really painful. But of course, part of the process.

[Brian Schulmeister]

That's also the good part about the current state of thing in the Internet age. Because while you can make a 21 minute TV for broadcast edit and you can do your book for kind of mass consumption, I mean, you kind of did this with your books anyways. You then released further versions that had expanded content and all the stuff that you had to cut out, that's the opportunity afforded nowadays with the kind of deals that you can make and the Internet. So you can do the 40 minute version. And here's all the extra footage that we shot that we thought was really, really great.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, definitely. It's primarily a post production constraint at this point. But yeah, I'm hoping at some point that we'll be able to put up a ton of extra stuff because there's so much.

[Guest]

Okay, so I got a quick question. Why hln?

[Tim Ferriss]

Okay, so yeah, this is a very good question because most people are like, hln, Isn't that all court stuff?

[Guest]

It's the Nancy Grace Channel.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah. Like, what's up with that? So hln, I had the chance or the opportunity to work with a couple of different channels. The HLN option came around because of this big initiative from Turner which is called upwave. And upwave is this wellness programming that is transmedia. So it's very much web based. They have a lot of web content. And then they have a corresponding block of television which is, I believe this sort of 7:30 to like 9:00 or whatever on Sundays. And they initially contacted me because they wanted me to be part of this UPWAVE launch which starts this Sunday, December 1st. And the benefits, I'm not going to name the other channels that I could work with, but the benefit of HLN as an example, as part of the Turner Broadcasting family, is that I get the market marketing muscle and dollars from Turner, a very large parent company, as opposed to, let's say, an isolated, smaller cable network. And I also get the ability to promote the show and myself through other Turner channels like cnn. And I just felt like they would do a very proper job of promoting the show, particularly if it were part of a larger block of programming and perhaps even considered the sort of anchor tenant for that block. So those are many of the reasons. Also because Turner was willing to help me craft a deal that I could live with. And many other places are really kind of polishing brass on the Titanic and very draconian with their contracts. And I was just not willing to sign 99% of what I've seen up to this point. And I'm sure, Brian, that you can comment on this, but if you look at some of these music contracts, it's like what, a seven album deal? Are you kidding me? Or we owe the broadcaster. Or in the case of music, the distributor or the label will own 360 degree merchandising rights. I can't sign that stuff.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Yeah, the music deals out there are draconian. And it's kind of what you were saying earlier is, is you've got a little bit of juice now, so you can do that. These young kids out there, these little garage bands that are just getting started, they don't have that, so they're sucked into signing these sorts of deals. And it's good that you were in a position to be able to get out of that with your TV version.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah. And I think that the threshold for gaining leverage is increasingly lower when I think about this. I believe maybe you can comment on this. Didn't Macklemore come out of nowhere? And, I mean, I believe they were sort of outside the traditional construct. But there are other examples, of course. I mean, if companies that do say really well on Kickstarter and then are able to craft deals with, say, traditional book publishers that they never would have been able to craft beforehand, even though they've only sold, say, you know, five or 10,000 copies. So I think the threshold for social proof that then allows you to negotiate perhaps non traditional deals.

[Brian Schulmeister]

You do that now, which is really.

[Tim Ferriss]

Really exciting to me, at least.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Yeah. And obviously, because the entire media world has become so fractured now, you don't need the same amount of people. You know, it's. It's kind of like a million fans. 10 years ago is about the same as 10,000 now. You get your 10,000 and you're pretty good, and you're looking good to labels and other people.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yep. Yeah. I mean, the sort of long tail of fractured markets, definitely. Yeah, Agreed.

[Guest]

Okay. So speaking of this change in media, tell me about your book club. What the hell is that all about?

[Tim Ferriss]

Oh, yeah, yeah, the book club. So this is something I've toyed around with for a long time. Primarily because when I was researching, say, the Four Hour Body and the Four Hour Chef, so looking at physical manipulation on one hand and accelerated learning or cooking on the other, it was extremely frustrating to me that I would ask, say, 10 top chefs for their top three books. If they could only have three books on a desert island for cooking for the rest of their lives, what would they choose? And there were always these consensus items. Be like, okay, there's this crazy book that you should get. It's your first purchase, and I would go to buy it and it would be out of print. I would find a copy for 150 bucks somewhere and buy it. And lo and behold, it's a great book. But the problem there, among others, is that I want to recommend it to my readers. And I can't get it.

[Brian Schulmeister]

There's nowhere to get it. It's out of print. Yeah. And there's nobody that owns whoever owns the rights, whoever knows who even that is anymore, probably isn't really thinking about it or concerned or care.

[Tim Ferriss]

Right, exactly. So this happened over and over and over and over. And over again. And I got really annoyed. And so if I had a bunch of wine with someone and it came up, I'd be like, you know what? This is fucking ridiculous. I should just hunt down these rights, buy them, and print the fucker myself. And I kept on saying it. I kept on saying it, I kept on saying it. And then I had that experience with audiobooks because I like to take long walks and listen to audiobooks to decompress or on airplane rides. Sometimes I listen to audiobooks and I couldn't find audiobook versions of some of my favorite books or books that had been recommended. And again, I started bitching and moaning about it. Eventually I realized, well, hold on a second. I have a million plus readers per month on the blog. I am advising this company quarterly. So I have this box that goes out every three months with physical goodies. I could be the author's entire marketing and PR department wrapped into one if they give me their or sell me their audio rights or ebook rights. Started thinking about it and I approached Rolf Potts, who is the author of Vagabonding, and he has become a friend of mine. His book hugely impacted my life. I traveled with it around the world for almost, say, 15 to 18 months in 2004, 2005. So it really affected all of the lessons that led to the four hour workweek. So I chatted with Rolf and I was like, hey man, what would you think about his audiobook? Hadn't been produced by the publisher after 10 years that was just sitting there. I was like, well, why don't you negotiate with the publisher, get them to revert your audiobook rights since they haven't done anything with it, and I'll craft an awesome deal with you, create the audiobook. You can narrate it ideally, and it'll drive sales of all of the formats of your book. So we decided to do that as an experiment with his book launching this book club. And lo and behold, actually, I haven't talked about any of the results. So I'll give you a sneak peek. The audiobook's done extremely well. I mean, thousands of copies and. And beyond that, the print edition. I didn't even link to the print edition in my blog post announcing it. The print edition went from like 9,000 on Amazon to I think 300 or 400 at the highest, which is really high on Amazon.

[Guest]

Nice.

[Tim Ferriss]

Really high. And it stuck there for quite a while, and I think it's now at around 3,000. But that's the print edition. The audiobook at one point was, among audiobooks on Audible, it was right between the two Hunger Games. So Rolf has ended up doing a ton of media, and that type of exposure and increase in sales can double the advance you get for your next book and certainly improve your income. So I think that this will continue to evolve. But as it stands right now, I've acquired a few books that have had a huge impact on me, and it's basically taking books that I think never got the attention they deserve, that have had a huge impact on me, and sharing them with my audience. That's it. And I think it will evolve. For instance, my ability to send out physical books could also be hugely attractive to people. So this is also something I haven't said, but I'll give away one of the items in the quarterly box coming out, which is a signed copy from Rolf of Vagabonding.

[Guest]

Excellent. Excellent. I just signed up for your quarterly package.

[Jason DeFilippo]

So.

[Tim Ferriss]

Awesome. Yeah, it's really cool. There's a name plate on the inside with, like, a world map and his signature. It's pretty rad. And that's something you can't get anywhere, right? It's not something you can buy, but it's also to the author, that's 2,000 physical books that just got shipped out. That's a big deal. And two people like podcasters, two people, like magazine editors to people like founders of tech companies like Twitter. And it's a really good audience for these guys. And many of these authors, super cool. The ones up to this point are guys, so really cool dudes. Very, very focused on the craft of writing. And they're not weird like me. They're not super interested in marketing and pr. They just want to write good shit. And it's fun for me to support that and introduce my readers to it.

[Guest]

No, I'm really happy about it because, yeah, Vagabonding has had a huge influence on me as well. Everything I own fits in my car. I can travel from anywhere in the country within, like, 72 hours. It's great. So I was really happy to see that. That was the first book, and I'm glad you're doing it, because there are a bunch of books out there that you just can't get.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Well, there are two really interesting things that I find about this concept, and the first one is the concept of the kind of curatorial aspect or the. The editorial voice that we seem to be losing in Internet culture. I mean, we all kind of know that the Amazon suggestion engines or Spotify suggestion engines, those are just horrible. So you're kind of bringing a curatorial thing to this because you've obviously got your following and you're a lifestyle kind of guru sort of guy. And anything that you suggest is probably going to be of interest to most of your followers. So you've got that going on, which is great. And then the second thing is totally the intellectual property properties thing because we're seeing that getting trampled left, right and center. But the forgotten story about IP rights right now is that there are so many things that are just kind of forgotten about completely, and nobody knows who actually owns them anymore. So that's a really interesting thing that you're going down and finding these things and tracking them down and going, hey, this is great. Let's reintroduce it to the world and let's make sure that this person gets protected and get these rights back.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, exactly. And it's become a free for all. And I'm sure this is true in music.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Oh, it's exactly the same, particularly with merchandise rights and things like that. Because there are bands that are still out there, even just because I'm 40 now, bands from when I grew up like Love and Rockets and things like that, the music is still owned by a label, but nobody owns the merchandising rights anymore, so people are just printing up free for alls. And the band's not making a cent because nobody's come around to go, hey, let's make sure that this doesn't happen.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah. No, it's. What's happening in the world of book publishing is that the publishers are trying to retroactively addenda to their contracts to include digital rights, for instance. And it's messy. It's really, really ugly, and authors kind of get screwed. It's a really shitty deal.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Wait, wait, hold on. The content makers get screwed? I've never heard of that before. I know.

[Tim Ferriss]

Imagine that. And what you end up seeing also is that most publishers, almost all do nothing effective from a marketing and PR standpoint. So what will happen is the audiobook rights get sold and then they just sit there and the people who publish the audiobooks simply cross their fingers and assume that, like, one out of 100 books will do extremely well, probably because the author kills himself trying to make it so. And then they just sit back and let Amazon and itunes do the rest, which I think is pathetic. That's been a very big issue in any case. Yeah, I could lament the state of the union all night long, but the fact of the matter is, I'm super excited about This, I don't think it's going to be. At least initially. I don't think it's going to be a big money maker, but it's just like. I'm so jazzed about it that I just. I don't particularly care.

[Guest]

Hey, man, if you break even, keep doing it, it's awesome.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah. And. Yeah, and I'm. I'm really. I mean, I'm, like, excited just thinking about the next one. I can't. I can't yet say what it is, but there's a. There. Yeah, there's some really fun ones coming.

[Guest]

Okay, now you gotta tell me, how the hell did you get Neil Gaiman to do part of your audiobook? Oh, dude, I got such a nerd boner when I heard that. I'm like, holy shit, this is so cool.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, I got. So I actually got the files when I was at. I think I was at south by Southwest. I want to say it was some time ago that I got them. Was it south by Southwest? I was in Austin for some reason, I can't imagine it wasn't South By. In any case, I, like, got up and literally danced around my hotel room, like, yelling and screaming. I was like, what the fuck?

[Guest]

What the fuck?

[Tim Ferriss]

I was, like, dancing around like an idiot. Because I'm a huge Neil Gaiman fanboy. I mean, since the Sandman days. And that was just his writing. And then, of course, I started listening to the audiobooks and I was like, oh, my God, this guy is like the best narrator of all time. He's incredible.

[Guest]

Yeah. I mean, he grew into that. So. Well, his first books were a little sketchy, but, man, he has embraced it. And he is, hands down the best author reader in the world.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah. I mean, Graveyard Book is one of my favorite books of all time. As the audiobook read by him. It's amazing. So the way I got that, it was. So I put up a post on the blog saying, hey, guys, I'm going to be doing an audiobook. It would really be awesome if I could get any of these following people to narrate a guest chapter or something like that. Here's a draft of a tweet you can put out which would be like, hey, amueljackson, he's totally sweet. If you could narrate a chapter of Tim Ferriss book length. And we had maybe eight to ten people up there. And at one point my girlfriend's like, hey, did you see this thing on Twitter with Neil Gaiman? And I'm like, what are you talking about? And one of my readers pinged him, and he responded with, sure, I'm in. And I was like, wait a second, wait a second. I think he's probably totally drunk, because I don't think he realizes what he just did. And then I pinged him on Twitter, didn't hear back, and sent his assistant. I tracked down his assistant's email, sent his assistant an email and didn't hear back, and gave up hope. I was like, oh, man, what a head fake. Geez. And then got a response from his assistant. Also got a response from Neil on Twitter, and then kept on going back and forth trying to make it happen. And eventually I get this email from his assistant. She's like, hey, send over the files asap. Can you just send what you want Neil to read asap? I sent it over, and literally, I think it was like 24 hours later, she's like, hey. Turned out that Neil was already in an audiobook session. Here you go. Here are the files. And that's when I was like, what? Oh, my God. And they were so awesome. I mean, really, exactly what you would hope out of Neil and his crew. It was just fantastic to deal with them. And sometimes, I don't know if you've ever had this happen, but you have the kind of heroes with clay feet experience where you meet someone you really idolize and you're like, wow, what a dick.

[Guest]

Yep, yep.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Far too often. Yes.

[Tim Ferriss]

And it was. I mean, they were just awesome. They were just awesome. My favorite part of that chapter, by the way. And for those people listening to this who don't know what the hell we're talking about, I recorded an audiobook version of the Four Hour Chef, about 70% of the book, because there are thousand plus photographs, and gave it away for free. So you can find that out there on the Internet on BitTorrent.

[Guest]

Yeah, we'll put a link to it in the show notes.

[Tim Ferriss]

Cool. And if you listen really carefully to one of Neil's chapters, he's trying really hard to use American pronunciation of words like basil instead of basil and so on. And he's reading this thing and he's killing it. I mean, it's just like a one take wonder, and he's maybe like three pages in, and he says herbs instead of herbs. And he goes, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, Herbs. And there's this awkward pause, and he goes, oh, fuck off, you're getting the British pronunciation. And then he keeps on going. I was like, oh, my fucking God, that is amazing. You have to keep that in No.

[Guest]

I think I spit up my water when I heard that. I was laughing so hard.

[Tim Ferriss]

He's so good, man. Yeah. I could just talk about him for the next hour, but if anyone's not familiar with Neil Gaiman, I think it's just Eilhimself on Twitter.

[Guest]

Yeah. We're huge fans on the show and we've covered his books multiple times.

[Tim Ferriss]

Just like the consummate artist in so many formats in so many genres. It's really cool.

[Guest]

Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about Quantified Self and, like, what's coming up, because I'm a huge Fitbit fan. Brian uses the Moves app. We're trackers, you know. Yeah. I mean, I've. I've clocked about 4,000 miles on my Fitbit so far.

[Tim Ferriss]

Holy crap.

[Guest]

Yeah, well, I mean, I've had. Since the Fitbit one. I'm the first Fitbit, not the Fitbit, the new Fitbit one. Whatever. I've had one since the get go and I've never taken it off, so.

[Brian Schulmeister]

And the Four Hour Body is what really hooked me onto your stuff too. I mean, I'd read the Four Hour Workweek, but it was when you did the Four Hour Body. And the whole idea of biology hacking is so appealing to me. I think it's because I had read that you also briefly were considering neuroscience in college, as did I, and then I got out of it too.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, I've gotten back into that. By the way. We could maybe talk about that as it relates to Quantified Self.

[Brian Schulmeister]

I'd love to. Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, let's jump into it, man. I love talking about this stuff.

[Guest]

We'll go, oh.

[Brian Schulmeister]

What do you think is coming next? Because we're starting to see all these watches come out. I mean, everybody's doing. Everybody's trying to come out with these products now. What's your take on them? Do you think they work? Are they good enough? What do you think?

[Tim Ferriss]

Well, I think that accelerometers are useful. I think that. What's coming next. I'm actually involved with the startup. They're not public yet, so I can't announce anything, but they're working on an approach to tracking biomarkers, usually measured through the blood.

[Guest]

Is this the patch you've been talking about?

[Tim Ferriss]

Exactly.

[Guest]

When the hell is that coming? You said it was coming this year. We're almost out of time. Come on, man.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, it's no big surprise. I'm like, oh, biotech and a delay. Imagine that. Yeah, it's like a nicotine Patch that would then give you a 24, 7 readout of say 20 biomarkers on your iPhone. Huge, obviously, huge target, very ambitious, highly prone to failure. But I think that's where we're going. I think that where the real value lies is in converting in two things. Converting data that is currently gathered invasively, that is through urinalysis or blood measurement, although urinalysis isn't terribly invasive, and converting that into continual monitoring so that people can trend. So the accelerometer data can be useful in many different applications, whether that's say Fitbit or even driving behavior, for instance. So I'm involved with a startup that is developing sort of car related accelerometer data to modify your driving behaviors and incentivize different driving behaviors, which I think is by the way, kind of a missing piece in a lot of the Qs is not just measuring but incentivizing the proper behavior.

[Guest]

So I could see we've definitely gone into that for sure.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, that could be really, really cool. But secondly, so turning invasive, meaning usually blood drawn into non invasive, is going to be a huge quantum leap forward. And scanadu is doing some interesting stuff in that realm as it relates to creating the Star Trek tricorder effectively. And I've spent time with those guys, they're pretty sharp. The second is taking data and turning it into actionable information for the masses. That is a very gnarly problem because you could do something, for instance, like I did, and take a Dexcom 7 continuous glucose monitor and implant it in your side like a type 1 diabetic and get this reams of data off of a transmitter that you have on your side and put it into an Excel spreadsheet on a PC because the software is so bad. But 99 out of 100 people are never going to even attempt that. I think one of the biggest challenges is making the information actionable without totally bastardizing the science. And I'm definitely keeping my eyes open. I think a lot of people are developing self tracking devices that will probably get regulated out of existence. One type in particular is brain stimulation. And that's actually why I'm back in the neuroscience world, because I'm spending time, or have been spending time. This is just a few months ago, before TV at ucsf, at the Sandler Neuroscience Lab with a fantastic team called the Ghazali Lab, looking at something called transcranial direct current stimulation and TDCS for short. And that involves. Can you guys hear me okay?

[Guest]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

That involves taking two electrodes, an Anode and a cathode and putting it on your. Putting them on your scalp so that you basically sort of cross hemisphere induce a current that is intended to, in most cases improve performance. And there are military applications to this and some studies have been done looking at first person shooter games where you do very short duration TDCS and take someone from like 30% accuracy to 80% accuracy. I mean, it's insane.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Let me ask you a question really quick about this because this is all getting super crazy, kind of weirdly invasive and you're obviously involved with a lot of these companies at a startup level. And I don't think I've ever heard your take on this, or at least I haven't read it yet. Where do you feel, where are you on the line on privacy issues and security issues with this sort of stuff? Because a lot of these apps, and we talk about this a lot on our podcast, scare the crap out of us in terms of we don't know where our information is going, we know it's not really being held very securely, we don't know who it's being sold to. And this is where we start to get in a really gray area where even me as a geek who is totally geeking out on everything that you're saying is also starting to get really paranoid and freaked out.

[Tim Ferriss]

Well, Jason and I have talked about paranoia before. Let me get my bug out bag. So here's my position specifically as it relates to the tdcs. I think it's very premature to go to Kickstarter and create devices that allow people to self stimulate their brains with electricity. I think that's very scary.

[Brian Schulmeister]

But people already have done that. Which is kind of another weird issue that I have with Kickstarter right now, which is anybody can do anything the hell they want.

[Tim Ferriss]

No, they can.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Well, not quite.

[Tim Ferriss]

I mean, because the TDCS really just involves using a 9 volt battery. It's very easy to trick yourself into believing, well, 9 volt battery doesn't seem like much of a charge, therefore I can apply it to my brain without injuring myself or damaging anything. And that's just not very true. It's kind of like candles. Not candles, not very hot or it's not very large flame. So therefore I can apply it to my eyeball. Like that's this. It's just not a very prudent idea.

[Guest]

Yeah, but come on, who as kids did not stick a 9 volt battery on their tongue? You know, we were doing brain activity back then.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Tongue is not quite the brain though.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, it's close, but understood. So on the privacy side, I get very nervous about this kind of stuff. I mean, to the extent that particularly with genetic data and how it might be used to decline health insurance, for instance, I think that's absolutely coming and it's probably already being done. So when I was writing the Four Hour Body, this part didn't make it into the book because unfortunately this. The genetic information is really hard to use proactively as an individual, but it's really easy to have it used against you currently. Does that make sense?

[Brian Schulmeister]

Yup, yup, totally.

[Tim Ferriss]

You get your 23andMe data and you're like, oh, great, I'm predisposed to Parkinson's. That sucks. And then you don't know what to.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Do, but the insurance companies know to block you.

[Tim Ferriss]

Exactly. So that is problematic for me. So I actually basically looked at how terrorists, like not launder money, but use prepaid debit cards and stuff like that to preserve anonymity. And I did a number of genetic tests with celebrity names like Michael Jackson or Brad Bitterman, because I didn't want my name to be associated. So I'm quite. I'm aggressive in self experimentation, but in certain instances, very private with the data. A lot of what I do is so public that it doesn't make any sense for me to try to hide it, like injuries and surgeries and things like that. But the genetics, I think, have further reaching implications than many people realize. For instance, there are people out there like Sergey Brin, who are like, oh, here's my genome. And I was talking to a scientist at NASA who at one point helped design customized biological weaponry. Meaning, like, if you want to kill a Russian plutocrat, like, okay, well, let's figure out he has a predisposition to disease X, great, we can help trigger that by blowing molybdenum into his face at a crowded rally. And that shit is real. That is not science fiction. And maybe you don't see yourself as a target for that kind of thing. My position is, why risk it? There are weird people out there and crazy people out there, and so I try to keep a lot of that private, and I think it's a good policy to do so.

[Guest]

Yeah, it's actually. Have you been watching that new show Almost human? The new J.J. abrams show?

[Tim Ferriss]

Oh, no, I haven't.

[Guest]

Okay, so all these cops get inoculated for a certain suite of biological agents in the environment in the near future, and the criminals actually created a bioagent that just went after cops because they all had those Markers, you know, it's that kind of thing.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, that stuff's coming. It's probably already.

[Guest]

So it's, you know, it's kind of the same thing. So it's interesting that, you know, you're keeping it to yourself and that's a good thing. And I'm. I'm just. When we're Talking about it, does 23. Does 23andMe have like a really good security data policy? Because, I mean, they've got. They're cross referencing you with people who might, you know, like celebrities you might be related to and ancestors and all this stuff. It's like, who. Like, where do they draw the line with privacy? You know, these. These public companies that are actually. They get your blood, they sequence you, and then do this suite of cross, like, big data tests. And it's like, well, what if I don't want that?

[Brian Schulmeister]

You know, then I particularly get worried with these kind of more startup and younger companies. And this would even count. It's like, if these companies happen to unfortunately go under for any reason, that stuff gets sold off as assets.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yep.

[Brian Schulmeister]

They own the data, and that terrifies me. And we're getting into a very strange world with this sort of stuff.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, yeah, totally agreed. So, I mean, I'm in a different place than many folks in so much as. So much of my life is, whether I like it or not, very public. So I'm kind of past the point of no return. So I actually, in some respects, take much more precaution, and then in other respects take no precaution at all because I'm like, it's already out there so many places that it's ineffective for me to try to do anything. What I would say this is getting into. Let's delve into paranoia for a bit. All right.

[Guest]

Welcome to Grumpy Old Geeks. Bring it on.

[Tim Ferriss]

I do think that if you are trying to avoid problems related to privacy, sometimes you cannot prevent your data from being released or found. But what you can do is you can seed incorrect information. So I think that deliberate disinformation is oftentimes more effective than trying to keep your stuff from getting released.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Yeah. Rather than cover your tracks, flood the marketplace.

[Tim Ferriss]

That's correct. Yep.

[Guest]

You would definitely get along with one of our previous guests, Dr. David Teter, who was in the spook world. He's pretty good at that stuff, actually. We talked about him.

[Tim Ferriss]

He.

[Guest]

He's the SOMA guy.

[Tim Ferriss]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Guest]

We'll cut this little bit out, but he was a spook For a long time. And he's like, yeah, just flood the waves with information and there's no way that they can parse through it.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah. Create noise. Absolutely.

[Guest]

Okay, so I have a question from the audience for you. Yeah, the audience being my 22 year old little brother.

[Tim Ferriss]

All right.

[Guest]

I gave him your first book. I mean, he's 22 now, so whenever the four hour work week came out, he was. He got one of the first copies.

[Tim Ferriss]

Nice.

[Guest]

He just graduated from the University of Wisconsin. He had a major in physics and a minor in Japanese.

[Tim Ferriss]

Oh, cool.

[Guest]

So now he's a medical physicist, but he's also into dance. He's been dancing for like 15 years. Like he goes to classes three times a week. So he has a question about tango and how you got got to the level that you got to so quickly.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Yeah.

[Guest]

So he's like, how did you advance to the World cup in Argentine tango so quickly? Was it through raw practice or was it some technicality like what you did in your sumo competitions or the. And, and as a corollary, is it possible to apply the meta learning you discuss in the Four Hour Chef to somatic or physical skills such as dance?

[Tim Ferriss]

Okay, yeah, let me tackle that. So it wasn't because of a technicality. And the technicality I took advantage of was actually Chinese kickboxing. But I was nicknamed sumo because I was pushing people out of the ring. But coming back to the tango, the way that I progressed in tango as quickly as I did, which was I guess around six months from first class to world championships, was. And I didn't win that. I mean, I made it to the semis, which I thought was pretty good. But the way I went about doing that was, number one, questioning the conventional ordering of how one learns tango. As a male, typically you start off obviously learning all of the male role and steps and whatnot. I actually learned the female role first, hypothesizing that that would then allow me to lead. It would teach me how to lead much more effectively, oddly enough. Right. So I had a female teacher first who taught me the female role and then after that only moved to practicing the male role. Which seems really weird, but it's actually very common in old tango in Argentina for like men to dance together. So that is first unorthodox thing that I did. The second unorthodox thing that I did was I reviewed competition video and then took classes with the people who were competing. And I tried to discern a few things. Number one, what do the best competitors have in common technically, when I watch their competition footage. Second, what are they teaching explicitly that they claim is important? And what are the techniques that I see in competition that they are not teaching? In other words, the stuff that's important that they rely on, that they're not aware is what they rely on. Does that make sense?

[Guest]

Absolutely.

[Tim Ferriss]

Okay. And then I focused on those things as my competitive advantage. And so it turned out that things like. Like very long linear steps and varying your speed, even in something that's supposedly, like 100% slow, having, like, a small acceleration and then slowing down again, those were two aspects of the top competitors that were not taught explicitly. So I made a point of learning those things. So next, when I came down to practice, I videotaped almost. I would practice, practice, practice. And then if I had an epiphany or if there was a certain technique that I wanted to review and practice later, I would take these classes during the day. I would videotape it, and then I would go home. I would categorize these techniques into different folders on my computer. So you would have. Oh, God. I'm just trying to think. You might have some type of, like, as they say, is a specific type of spin. So there might be, like, five or six different types of that spin that I wanted to group together in practice. Boom. So that's one folder. And then I would create a to practice list in a notepad for going out that night and practicing sparring, basically. So you're taking a class where everything is very tightly controlled and you're doing drilling, but the real test is going out to a dance hall and trying to lead a woman you don't know in a move that is brand new to you. And that is fucking embarrassing.

[Brian Schulmeister]

But that is when the real learning occurs, right? I mean, it's the same thing for language. You can sit in a room all you want. It's getting out in the street and being surrounded by it. That's when your brain kicks in.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's like doing drills on a piece of paper for a grammar and a language versus going out and, like, talking to someone after two drinks. It's completely different. And so that is how I practice. And then I would kind of score myself on these various things that I'd set out to practice that evening, and that would give me a to practice list for the next class the following morning or afternoon. So it's very methodical about how I approached it. Extremely, Extremely methodical.

[Guest]

Excellent. Excellent. I think that will definitely answer his question.

[Tim Ferriss]

You know, does the. Does the Meta learning from the 4 Hour Chef apply to physical or somatic skills. Absolutely. A hundred percent.

[Guest]

Okay. Wow, that was really good because I was actually, I was wondering about that, that myself because you did kind of jump like straight to. You know, you talk exactly about how you won the kickboxing and then when it came to tango, there wasn't really kind of a deep explanation and that. That you've just filled that gap.

[Tim Ferriss]

So.

[Guest]

Thank you very much.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, of course. My pleasure.

[Guest]

Oh, man.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Oh. I actually want to go back and hit on some of your previous work, your best hits, as it were as well. Because I went back and it's been a long time since I've looked at the four hour workweek and I was just wondering what your thoughts are now because for how many years on now, you talk a lot about how. Okay, let's just avoid our email for a while. I don't think anybody can anymore. In fact, it's part of the job for a lot of people that they have to check and be available 24 7. What are your thoughts on some of the. The concepts that you laid out and how they may or may not apply anymore?

[Tim Ferriss]

Well, I would challenge the assumption that people have to be available 24 7. I think it's a common belief. I think it's common behavior. But I'll give you a very personal example. The financial cost of me going completely awol, it has never been higher. The opportunity cost has never been higher for me.

[Brian Schulmeister]

You're dicking around with us for an hour, so there you go.

[Tim Ferriss]

I know. Gajillion dollars. Yeah, right. No, but not everything is obviously financially driven. This is fun for me also. But the point being, before the four hour work week, implementing what I recommended, despite the fact that I was running a company and got plenty of email, was relative to now, much, much easier for me. So it has never been harder and more important. I think those two go together for me to implement this stuff. That having been said, I think it was about six months ago. It may have been a bit before that. My brain, it's all a blur at this point, but I took four weeks off of computers, phones and calendars in Indonesia. Literally nothing. I mean, completely off the grid. And had to create systems as kind of outlined in the four hour workweek to ensure that things, number one, not only would they not collapse while I was gone, but then when I got back, the systems would persist so that they would actually continue to add value in terms of automation and simplifying things. I would say that the principles in the four hour workweek are as relevant, probably more important, than even in 2007 or 2009 when the revised edition was put out. I'm sure a handful of the URLs in the book could probably be updated. But aside from that, I think the general principles and tactics even more relevant now that people feel much more so than in 2007, that they can't be offline for an hour. I mean, it's incredible how much pressure people feel to constantly be connected. And I think that continual feeding of cortisol release and the continual exposure to blue light late at night which interrupts sleep is really fucking people up. I mean, I think that.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Well, the interesting thing is I think it's really causing problems for a lot of people in kind of our generation. I look at the kids right now, they don't want to be disconnected ever. Like, a lot of us, like, we're like, oh my God, I need to get away from this. The next generation just seems to be like, sucked right onto that teat. And I'm terrified to see what happens with them when they finally burn out. It's going to be scary.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm curious to see, even just from a very basic visual development standpoint, like, how many of these kids are just going to be extremely nearsighted because they're constantly looking at an iPhone or a smartphone or a screen of some type that's 8 inches from their face.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Oh, God. I have nieces and nephews and a bunch of friends that have babies and they're basically. I mean, they're being raised on iPads. The kids love babies, love that stuff. And that's going to be really interesting thing.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, yeah, agreed. Agreed, man. Totally agreed.

[Guest]

So, yeah, I think Brian's point was that we're in the service industry, so we're always. We always need to be on call. So how do you kind of mitigate that? And although for today, what I did was I told my client, who I'm on a deadline with that's due in three days, and get email from literally every four minutes, I'm like, I'm going to be gone for four hours. And the strangest thing happened. I haven't gotten an email from her and she said, okay.

[Brian Schulmeister]

So, you know, I mean, I think a lot of it is you do kind of have to set your own boundaries and then people will kind of respect it. But there does just seem to be. The reason I brought it up is I see the acceleration and how everybody has this fear of like, not being around anymore. And there's gotta be something that we can do culturally to kind of pull it back and maybe you're all right. Maybe the principles still do apply. We just kind of have to manifest up and sack up a little bit more to put our foot down and put them into play.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, I think that I'll recommend a few resources. There's a free PDF out there, basically a white paper written by a CEO called Breaking the Time Barrier. Breaking the time barrier is about specifically either improving or breaking out of the dollars per hour model that many people get stuck in. Service industries or service businesses are very challenging. Product businesses are as well, but in different ways. So I think breaking the time barrier is worth a read. Secondly, I would say that the E Myth revisited would be a longer treatment on working on the business as opposed to in the business. There are ways to convert a service business into a product business. There are ways to move from a per hour model to a retainer model and set the conditions such that you do not get emails every four minutes, for instance. So I think I would be really.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Interested in that because I've actually been my personal business, I've been running as a retainer model for 15 years and I'm getting massive push from all my clients to switch to an hourly model. I think things are turning that way right now. So that's really intriguing to me that you think that it can still go that direction.

[Tim Ferriss]

Oh definitely, yeah, without a doubt. And I think ultimately it comes down to number one, demonstrating enough value that it's more painful and expensive for them to reject your retainer model than to leave and seek a. Let me rephrase that. It is cheaper for them and better for them to stay with you with a retainer model as opposed to choose a competitor or force you to use a dollar per hour compensation model. Secondly is it's very important to curate your customer base. And that sounds like a fantastic problem.

[Brian Schulmeister]

To have, but no, that's beyond true in my experience. I agree with that 100%.

[Tim Ferriss]

It's very challenging to initially fire a customer, particularly if they generate a good amount of revenue for the business. But I just remember how much my life changed when I did that with wholesalers. And immediately the insomnia that I had, the self flagellating, the anger that I carried around with me all the time just vaporized because I got rid of these two assholes basically who were constantly berating me, wanted to negotiate everything after terms had been settled. Just the real exactly the type of people you do not want to spend time with. And I think that you can be very assertive in setting your own terms, assuming that you're very compelling versus the competition. And again, I'll just mention the breaking the time barrier PDF I think is definitely worth a read.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Right?

[Guest]

Cool. Yeah, we actually talked about firing clients in our last episode. People who don't have the same sense of humor you have, you probably should never work with with.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, that simplifies things dramatically.

[Guest]

Well, especially in the world of social media, when you try and make a joke at 4 in the morning after you've been working for 20 hours and they don't get the joke and want to fire you. Well, you know what? If they don't get the joke, you shouldn't be working with them. So I know you got to run. I just want to do a little bit of follow up real quick with the honey experiment that you posted. Okay. I've been doing this religiously until last night when I was so tired. We put out our new does it have Legs? Podcast and I was done at like one in the morning. Morning and went up to bed, got in bed and I'm like, oh shit man, I forgot my honey. Okay, we'll do an experiment, see if it works. I tell you what, at 4:00 in the morning, I was wide awake. I couldn't go back to sleep. I slept like shit the rest of the night. Ever since I started the honey, I have slept perfectly through the night. I don't wake up once and I wake up refreshed. So I am 100% on board with that.

[Tim Ferriss]

It's a delicious little cocktail.

[Guest]

Yeah, I mean, I started with the apple cider vinegar and the honey and the cup of hot water. Andand I've actually just pulled it back to just a tablespoon of honey and it works exactly the same. It's more delicious if you do it with the vinegar and it helps you fall asleep a little bit faster because you have the nice little warmth in your tummy. But man, just the honey itself has been amazing.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, I've really been enjoying it and I actually need to. I'm in New York now. I need to go restock tomorrow for the next couple days. But yeah, it's really nice and I was thinking it might be really tasty to put a little bit of lemon in there as well. Kind of make it taste like a hot toddy a bit.

[Guest]

Ooh, that's a good. Yeah, good call.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Hot toddy is my favorite cold cure. Can't go wrong with that.

[Tim Ferriss]

Oh, delicious.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Tim Ferriss]

So good to hear, man. Yeah, I've all. You know, I've had sleep issues continually. And it's always nice when you find something that eases that pain, makes it a little easier to get to sleep or stay asleep.

[Guest]

Yeah, it's the staying asleep. I'm a 4 o'clock waker upper every night. And then you wake up and it's just exactly that time when your brain is thinking about everything you've done wrong in your life and you sit there for like five hours going, oh, Jesus, will it end soon?

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, sleep is man. Sleep is really just the crux issue for so many people. And I think one thing that's helped me also quite a bit is using a program that's free called Flux. I don't know if you've ever run into this, but it.

[Guest]

Yeah, we've covered it. We've actually reviewed that on the show. That's my go to. I love that.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, Flux is fantastic. So I think all those things in combination are super, super helpful.

[Guest]

Cool, man. Well, thanks for taking the time out. I know you got to get back to your family. Turkey day's coming up. Got to prep.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, yeah. No, I appreciate it. And this is fun. This is fun. So to be continued. And people can see that episode that you mentioned, the free episode of the Tim Ferriss experiment at, well, many places. Itunes is actually probably the highest resolution. But you could also go to YouTube or just upwave.com tfx Yep.

[Guest]

We'll have basically everything in the show notes. And we're pretty good with research. You know me for long enough that I'm Mr. Fucking Research.

[Tim Ferriss]

I love it. I love it.

[Brian Schulmeister]

Well, guys, it's really nice talking to you, man. I'd love to have you on again in the near future. It'd be great. We can definitely expand on a lot of this stuff and have a great Thanksgiving.

[Tim Ferriss]

Thanks very much, guys. You too. So I'll let you go. Have a good night.

[Brian Schulmeister]

All right, man.

[Guest]

Have a good one.

[Tim Ferriss]

Delivery.