SEO is NOT Conversion Optimization... - Episode 112

Summary

Podcast Summary: Grumpy SEO Guy - "SEO is NOT Conversion Optimization" (Episode 112)

Release Date: June 11, 2025

In Episode 112 of the "Grumpy SEO Guy" podcast, titled "SEO is NOT Conversion Optimization," the host delves deep into clarifying the fundamental differences between Search Engine Optimization (SEO) and Conversion Optimization. Drawing from 14 years of experience running an SEO agency, the Grumpy SEO Guy aims to dispel common misconceptions and provide listeners with a clear understanding of how these two critical aspects of digital marketing operate independently and synergistically.

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1. Introduction to the Confusion

The episode begins with the host expressing frustration over the prevalent confusion between SEO and Conversion Optimization. He emphasizes that many professionals and clients often conflate the two, leading to ineffective strategies and unmet expectations.

Grumpy SEO Guy ([00:00]): "I'm grumpy today because people are confused about the difference between search engine optimization and conversion optimization."

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2. Defining SEO and Conversion Optimization

a. Search Engine Optimization (SEO): SEO is defined as the process of enhancing a website's visibility in search engine results to attract more organic traffic. The primary goal is to achieve higher rankings for targeted keywords.

Grumpy SEO Guy ([05:31]): "The purpose of Search Engine Optimization is to get to the top of the search engines for your keywords."

b. Conversion Optimization: Conversion Optimization focuses on increasing the percentage of website visitors who take desired actions, such as making a purchase or signing up for a newsletter. It’s about enhancing the user experience to boost conversions.

Grumpy SEO Guy ([05:31]): "Conversion optimization is optimizing the percentage of people that buy from you when they're on your site."

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3. The Relationship Between Ranking and Traffic

The host explains that while SEO aims to improve a website's ranking, this doesn't always translate directly to increased traffic. Traffic is influenced by both the website's position in search results and the monthly search volume for the targeted keywords.

Grumpy SEO Guy ([04:30]): "Traffic is a function of monthly search volume and your position."

Example:

• Keyword Search Volume: 1,000 monthly searches.
• Ranking Position: 1st place typically garners about 30% of the traffic, equating to 300 visitors per month.

Grumpy SEO Guy ([06:00]): "If you are in the first position for your keyword, you will get about 30% of the monthly search volume."

He underscores that these figures are approximate and can vary based on different studies.

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4. Why Traffic is Not a Reliable SEO Metric

Contrary to popular belief, the host argues that traffic alone is not a sufficient metric to measure SEO success. He points out that:

• Positional Variance: A website can improve its ranking position while experiencing a decline in traffic or vice versa.

  Grumpy SEO Guy ([03:28]): "Your position can go up, but your traffic goes down. They're not necessarily correlated in the way people think they are."

• Multiple Traffic Sources: Traffic can originate from various sources like referrals, social media, or paid ads, making it an unreliable indicator of SEO performance.

Grumpy SEO Guy ([18:42]): "Traffic is not an SEO measurement at all."

He emphasizes the importance of monitoring Search Engine Results Pages (SERPs) to accurately track SEO performance.

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5. Understanding Conversion Optimization

The host elaborates on how Conversion Optimization operates once visitors land on a website. It's about enhancing elements like sales copy, imagery, website design, and user experience to increase the likelihood of conversions.

Grumpy SEO Guy ([13:07]): "Conversion optimization is creating better sales copy, having better pictures, having a more attractive website, having a website that produces a more beneficial user experience and sales process."

Example:

• Current Scenario: 300 visitors with a 2% conversion rate result in 6 sales.
• Post-Optimization: Increasing the conversion rate to 4% doubles the sales to 12.

Grumpy SEO Guy ([14:27]): "You literally just doubled the amount of money you're gonna make."

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6. Distinguishing SEO Problems from Conversion Problems

The episode provides clear scenarios to help listeners identify whether an issue is rooted in SEO or Conversion Optimization:

• SEO Problems:

  • Irrelevant Keyword Ranking: Ranking for keywords that do not drive desired actions (e.g., informational queries vs. transactional intent).

    Grumpy SEO Guy ([17:58]): "If you are ranking for keywords that do not help you, that is an SEO problem."

  • Poor Keyword Targeting: Failing to rank for keywords that align with business goals.

• Conversion Optimization Problems:

  • High Traffic, Low Sales: If a website receives substantial traffic but fails to convert visitors into customers, the issue lies in Conversion Optimization.

    Grumpy SEO Guy ([17:58]): "If you're getting a lot of traffic and you're not making any sales, that is a conversion optimization problem."

He reiterates the importance of understanding this distinction to seek the right expertise and implement effective strategies.

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7. Practical Implications and Strategies

a. Enhancing SEO: To improve SEO, focus on:

• Avoiding penalties.
• Creating high-quality, relevant content.
• Building authority through backlinks and reputable references.

Grumpy SEO Guy ([11:09]): "There's four things you need to rank. 1. No penalties. 2. Content. 3. Relevancy. 4. Authority."

b. Boosting Conversion Rates: While the host admits he isn't a Conversion Optimization expert, he emphasizes the importance of:

• Crafting compelling sales copy.
• Using attractive and relevant images.
• Designing a user-friendly website layout.
• Streamlining the sales process to reduce friction.

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8. Key Takeaways

1. Distinct Roles: SEO and Conversion Optimization are separate but complementary disciplines. SEO focuses on attracting visitors, while Conversion Optimization concentrates on converting those visitors into customers.

2. Metric Selection: Relying solely on traffic as a metric can be misleading. It's crucial to monitor SERP rankings and conversion rates to gauge true performance.

3. Strategic Focus: Address SEO issues to ensure you’re attracting the right audience. Simultaneously, optimize your website to improve conversion rates, ensuring that the traffic you attract contributes to your business goals.

4. Holistic Approach: For sustained success, integrate SEO and Conversion Optimization strategies. Enhancing visibility without effective conversion strategies can lead to wasted opportunities, while optimizing conversions without attracting sufficient traffic can limit growth.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Clarifying SEO vs. Conversion Optimization:

  Grumpy SEO Guy ([00:00]): "SEO is NOT Conversion Optimization."

• On Traffic Metrics:

  Grumpy SEO Guy ([04:30]): "Traffic is a function of monthly search volume and your position."

• On Conversion Rates:

  Grumpy SEO Guy ([05:31]): "Conversion optimization is optimizing the percentage of people that buy from you when they're on your site."

• On SEO Measurement:

  Grumpy SEO Guy ([18:42]): "Traffic is not an SEO measurement at all."

• On Enhancing Revenue through Conversion Optimization:

  Grumpy SEO Guy ([14:27]): "You literally just doubled the amount of money you're gonna make."

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Conclusion

Episode 112 of "Grumpy SEO Guy" serves as a crucial reminder that while SEO and Conversion Optimization are interconnected, they operate in distinct realms of digital marketing. By understanding and leveraging both, businesses can not only attract more visitors but also ensure that these visitors translate into tangible revenue, thereby maximizing the effectiveness of their online presence.

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Transcript

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

This is Grumpy SEO Guy. Episode 112, Search Engine Optimization is not Conversion Optimization. You're listening to Grumpy SEO Guy, the SEO podcast that doesn't waste your time with nonsense that doesn't work. I'm the Grumpy SEO Guy, and I'm sharing with you the strategies that have helped me successfully run my SEO agency for the last 14 years. In this podcast, I'll be sharing my knowledge and experience, discussing tips and strategies, and trying to help you cut through the confusion that permeates this industry. If you listen to this podcast, you will know more about SEO than 99% of people on the planet. Ready? Let's get started. I'm the Grumpy SEO Guy. Let me tell you why I'm grumpy today. I'm grumpy today because people are confused about the difference between search engine optimization and conversion optimization. So in this episode, that's what we're gonna talk about. But before we do that, my lawyer tells me that I have to say this right now. Okay, a quick disclaimer before we get started. Everything I say here is based on my experience and opinion from 14 years in the industry. I don't officially know how Google or any other search engines work. Everything I say here is hypothetical and based on my experience, this podcast does not constitute advice or services. What worked for me may or may not work for you. Okay, back to the show. Before we do, however, a reminder. New episodes come out on Wednesday at 9am Central Standard Time, but that is for the podcast. If you're listening on YouTube, it's gonna be a little bit after that. If you're. If you leave a comment on YouTube, I try to respond on Wednesday, but sometimes it's not until Thursday. And if you like the podcast enough to leave a comment, please subscribe. I'm trying to get 3,000 subscribers, and I'm right there, so please subscribe. If you'd like to support the podcast, you can do so on [e-mail] grumpyseoguy thank you to all my Patreon subscribers. And if you have a more detailed SEO question and you'd like to set up a zoom advisory call, you can email [e-mail] and we can talk about how to get that set up. And one more thing really quick. I have a question for you. On the last few episodes, I have been putting the time points of important parts of the episode in the description, so you can just select those and get taken to that Part of the episode. Tell me if that's useful or not. Leave a comment below and tell me if that is useful for you. So on the topic of calls, I was on a call with a listener a couple weeks ago, and we were talking about conversion optimization. And we were talking a little bit about conversion optimization, and I mentioned that I was going to do an episode on conversion optimization. So here it is. Okay. So I've done a couple episodes that really kind of frustrate people. And I think it frustrates them because it makes them question. Well, it frustrates them for two reasons. One, because it makes them question how they consider SEO to work. And two, it frustrates them because a lot of them are just content salesmen and they don't like it when you explain real SEO. Anyways, one of those episodes was the episode called Traffic Is not an SEO Metric and what yout Should Use Instead. And in that episode, we talked about how traffic, while usually somebody's goal, you know, of getting traffic to their site to make sales, is not a metric for SEO, because. And we described this in that episode. So I'm not going to explain it now, but your position can go up, but your traffic goes down. And your position can go down, but your traffic goes up. They're not necessarily correlated in the way people think they are.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

So anyway, it doesn't matter. And then another episode that really frustrated people was the episode called if you're not tracking your SERPs, you're not doing SEO. So hopefully you know by now that SERPs, which is just another way of saying SERP, which is S E, R P, which is search engine results pages, just means what position are you in the. But anyway, the purpose of SEO is to increase your rank. So if you're not tracking your SERPs, meaning what position you're in, you're ultimately not doing SEO because you have no way of tracking your progress. So anyway, this is gonna be another one of those episodes that people get frustrated about. Cause it's not how I feel like SEO should work. But you're wrong. And we're gonna use math to show that you're wrong. So, anyways, let's get into it. So let's start by telling the reason you do Search Engine optimization. What is the purpose of Search Engine optimization? The purpose of Search Engine Optimization is to get to the top of the search engines.

[Listener]

Okay.

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

The purpose of Search Engine Optimization is to get to the top of the search engines for your keywords. So cool. Right? Right. Somebody's going to say, well, the purpose of search engine optimization is to get more traffic. No, more traffic is a function of two things, one of which is your SERPs, your position. Okay, we're going to talk more about this in a minute because we're going to give some specifics here, okay? Anyways, the purpose of search engine optimization is to get to the top of the results, right?

[Listener]

Okay.

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

What is the purpose of conversion optimization? The purpose. Actually, let's define conversion first, because maybe some people don't know this word. Conversion means when somebody buys from your website, okay? Generally, a conversion is a sale, okay? So conversion optimization is optimizing the percentage of people who buy from you that are on your site. Okay, we'll talk about that in a minute. But let me say it again. Conversion optimization is optimizing the percentage of people that buy from you when they're on your site.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

So let's do a little example. Oh, but first, I should probably tell you this. So I said traffic is not an SEO metric. It is a function of your SERPs, your position, okay? Because remember, they're the same thing. Your position and something else. So that other thing is monthly search volume, okay? Traffic is a factor of monthly search volume and your position. So let me give you an example. And there's many different papers that talk about this, okay? And they all give, like, kind of different numbers. So we're just gonna use a. That is approximate, okay? And I have a whole episode on this, so we're only gonna give one example here. But if you are in the first position for your keyword, you will get about 30% of the monthly search volume, okay? So that means if there are 1,000 monthly searches and you are in the first position, you will get basically 300 visitors for that keyword per month, because that is 30%. Now, some of the research says 40, some of the research says 20. We're gonna say 30, okay? So if you are in the first position, you will get about 30% of the monthly search volume for that keyword, okay? So what does that mean? If there are 1,000 monthly searches, that means you will get 30%, or 300 approximately, per month.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

Now that's SEO. And that's also how you determine traffic, because as we talked about in that other episode, by the way, it's possible to get more traffic when your ranking goes down, and it's also possible to get less traffic when your ranking goes up, okay? Because traffic is a function of your position and monthly search volume. And there's also other ways to get traffic. There's Word of mouth. There's referral traffic, there's paid traffic. So there's other ways to get traffic besides search engine optimization. Anyway, okay, so now we understand the role of traffic and how it is affected by search engine optimization. Now let's talk about conversions.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

Let's say you have a 2% conversion rate. That means that 2% of the people that go to your website buy from you.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

So let's use our previous numbers. If you have. If you have. If you have 300 monthly visitors and you have a 2% conversion rate, that means you make six sales per month, because 2% of 300 is six.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

So you have 1,000 monthly searches, and you're in the first position. So you get 30% of that. So you get 300 visitors per month. Now you have a 2% conversion rate. So you have 300 visitors per month, and 2% of them, or six people buy from you.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

That's conversion rate. Conversion optimization is increasing the number of people who buy from you. Now, the way you do these things is different, obviously.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

And here's a different way. Here's a different way of looking at it. SEO is what happens before the person gets to your website.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

SEO is what happens before a person goes to your website, meaning you have to do stuff to appear in the search results. That's SEO.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

Once the person gets onto your website, we're all done with SEO. And now it's conversion optimization or maybe some other stuff.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

So SEO ends when the person gets to your website, and then it becomes things like conversion optimization.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

I don't know if that maybe makes it a little simpler to understand. I don't know. But look, here's the thing. Here's something that nobody will tell you. I'm gonna tell you. I don't know why nobody tells you this, but I'm gonna tell you this. This is how you can determine how much money you will make.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

Pay attention, because it's math. It's literally just math.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

So listen, let's use the same numbers as before, okay? We'll use the same numbers as before, and we'll say you make $100 per sale, because I don't know how much you make per sale. So we're just gonna say $100. 1,000 searches per month.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

1,000 searches per month. Now, let's presume you're in the first position. So you get 30% of that traffic. So you get 300 visitors per month. You have a 2% conversion rate. So you make six sales per month. You make $100 per sale, so you make $600 per month. That is how you can predict how much money you will make. Kind of like there's always exceptions to everything, but like, it's basically how it works. By the way, that's math. So people are gonna disagree with that and they're gonna be like, well, but the other thing. And the content is king. No, that's math. That's how it works. The number of visitors you get is a function of monthly searches and your position. And the amount of sales you make is a function of your monthly visitors and your conversion rate.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

And if you put those two things together, you can tell how much money you will make by where you are ranking.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

But you have to know this data, by the way. This is another reason why you should always be tracking your SERPs so you know what position you are in.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

So let's say you wanna make more money. Let's say you wanna make more money. There's two things you can do. You can rank higher.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

Because higher rank probably means you'll get more traffic. There's times when that's not true. But listen to the other episode if you want to learn about that. So you can rank higher or. And you could do both. Actually, you can rank. So actually there's three things you can do. You can rank higher, you can do conversion optimization and increase your conversion rate, or you can do both of those. Okay, so anyway, you know how to do SEO now from this podcast, right? There's four things you need to rank. 1. No penalties. 2. Content. 3. Relevancy. 4. Authority. And we have at least two episodes that explain those in detail. So we're not going to go into them now. That's how you rank.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

Conversion optimization. Now, I need to tell you, I am not a conversion optimization person, which you obviously know, but anyways, so I'm not going to give you a step by step guide to do conversion optimization because I don't even know how. I am not the person to talk to about that. I used to work with somebody who. That was like their specialty, but I haven't talked to them. I think they moved. I lost touch with them. I'm not sure what they're up to now. I don't have any recommendations, I don't have any referrals. I can't even point you in the right direction, honestly, because I don't do conversion optimization and I don't know enough about it to tell you what's good and what's bad. But I can give you a little bit of information.

[Listener]

Okay.

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

I want you to picture a good salesperson and a bad salesperson.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

What is the difference between a good salesperson and a bad salesperson? Even if they're selling the same thing?

[Listener]

Okay.

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

People buy from the good salesperson. They don't buy from the bad salesperson. Why? Because the good salesperson is doing something that makes people want to buy from them, and the bad salesperson is doing something that makes people not want to buy from them.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

Your website is the same. If your website has good conversions, it's probably doing something that makes people want to buy from it.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

Now ultimately, conversion optimization is creating better sales copy.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

Having better pictures, having a more attractive website, having a website that produces a more beneficial user experience and sales process and all of that. And again, that is not what we do. So there is going to be no guidance on how to do that in this episode. So you need to understand the concept of it.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

Once the person gets to your website, SEO is done. Once they are on your website, conversion optimization, or conversion, whatever you want to call it, converting, I don't know, conversions begins, user experience begins, sales and marketing and such begin. Once you are ranking and the person has clicked on your website and is now at the website, SEO is done. Unless you believe the people who say that user experience is a ranking factor, which it's not, or that dwell time is a ranking factor, which it's not. But anyways, at least in our experience, those things are not ranking factors. Once they're at the website and they have clicked on it, Search engine optimization is over, it's completed, and now you're dealing with other things like conversion optimization. So anyway, let's say you have a 2% conversion rate, okay? And you change your sales copy, and now it converts at 4%.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

You literally just doubled the amount of money you're gonna make.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

Because you were making sales from 2% of the people. Now you're making sales from 4% of the people. That's great. Doubling your. Everybody wants to double their sales. That's awesome. But anyways, conversion optimization is how you do that once they get to your site, okay? And again. But I don't know how to write good sales copy instead of bad sales copy enough to teach it.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

So anyways. But you need to understand the process that it's changes to your website, it's creating better sales copy, it's making your website look better, it's making people think, I want to buy from this person or this website or this company, okay? That is conversion optimization. It is a totally different skill set. Anyways, obviously they, like, work together, probably depending on the case or depending on the situation. But I wanted to clarify because a lot of people think that, oh, if I do better SEO, I will make more money. Not necessarily. I mean, maybe, but not. Okay, look, here's. Let's put it like this. Let's say you're ranking, okay? And you're ranking in position, whatever position you're in. Let's say you're ranking but you're not in the top position. And then you do good SEO and you get to the top position and you get a lot more traffic, but you're not making any more sales, that is a conversion optimization problem. That is not an SEO problem. Let's say you're getting a lot of traffic. Doesn't matter where you rank. Let's say you're getting a great deal of traffic and you're not making any sales. That is not an SEO problem. That is a conversion problem, okay? If you are getting traffic and the traffic is not purchasing, you have a conversion optimization problem, not an SEO problem. If you are not ranking, you have an SEO problem, okay? It's valuable here for you to understand the difference so you don't look for the wrong type of consultant or whatever, okay? If you are not ranking, you have an SEO problem. If you are ranking but you're not making any sales, you. You have a conversion optimization problem, okay? Now there's one. There's one situation. Now there's one case where SEO and conversion optimization might kind of be related, but they're still not really. So let me just describe this really quickly. If you are ranking for keywords that do not help you, that is an SEO problem. If you are ranking for bad keywords and you're not ranking for the correct keywords, that is an SEO problem. If the reason you're not making sales is because you are not ranking for the proper keywords, that is an SEO problem, okay? If you are ranking for, for example, you know, pictures of blue widgets, okay? But nobody who searches for pictures of blue widgets wants to buy from you. And you're not ranking for, like, you know, buy blue widgets or something, whatever. I don't know. Blue widget store, right? Like, whatever. Like a keyword where people want to buy, okay? That is an SEO problem. The reason it's an SEO problem is because you are not ranking for the keywords that you need to be ranking for and not being at the Top of the search engine is an SEO problem.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

But if you're ranking for the right keywords, you do not have an SEO problem. Anyways, I don't know. I hope this all makes sense, but I wanted to clarify, because the topic of conversion optimization comes up from time to time, and it's completely different. It's completely different from SEO. And I know people are gonna say it's not. Just like people are gonna tell you traffic is an SEO metric and it's not.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

Because for the reasons that we explain in a different episode and for the ones that we quickly covered in this episode, traffic and SEO are somewhat related, but not really. And traffic is not a good metric to use because there are many things that happen that can cause your traffic to go down that have nothing to do with SEO.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

So it's not. And let me just say it again, it's possible for your position to decrease and your traffic to go up.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

So again, traffic is not an SEO measurement at all. And people who say it is are either trying to sell you. Okay, this is kind of off topic. There's a couple cases where people will tell you that it is. One is if they just don't comprehend SEO, right? Because they're just like, oh, yeah, more traffic. Yeah, okay, like, right conclusion, but wrong logic. Okay, whatever. Number two is if they're trying to sell you something, because what does everybody want? Everybody wants more traffic. Why? Because all else being equal, more traffic means more sales.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

So everybody wants more traffic. So of course, SEO salespeople are gonna say, oh, yeah, we're gonna increase your traffic. But that ultimately doesn't mean they're doing a good job at SEO.

[Listener]

Okay?

[Grumpy SEO Guy]

Because as we said, your position can go down and your traffic can go up. So that's actually bad SEO, but your traffic is still increasing, so whatever. And your position can go up, which is good SEO, and your traffic can go down, which is not what you want. So traffic. They're not correlated the way people think they are. Okay, Anyways. Or they're just trying to spread disinformation because they're just. I don't know, you know, how the SEO industry is, like, probably the same people that tell you to write really good content and you'll rank higher anyway. So it's kind of peculiar. But it's important for you guys when you're listening to this to understand that, yes, doing SEO can increase your traffic, but that is part of the equation. Okay, good SEO might mean that your traffic will increase. And yes, people want more Traffic, obviously. But if you're trying to do SEO to get them more traffic, you need to understand that SEO is some of the reason that your traffic increases, but it also has to do with monthly searches, okay? Or maybe it's because most people, like, honestly don't care. They're like, well, I don't care about SERPs and functions and stuff. I just want more traffic. And, you know, depending on the person that you're talking to, if you're in a meeting with somebody who might become a client, okay? And it's like, maybe they're just not really wanting to know, like, how it works. And they're like, I just want traffic. And it's like, okay. Then like, cool. Like, look, this isn't a sales episode, but don't over explain something in a sales meeting, okay? If they're like, we want more traffic, like, some people actually care how SEO works, like when you're in a meeting with them, but some people are just not really that interested. And you don't need to tell them how everything works, but you need to understand how it works. That way, if their position goes up but their traffic goes down, you know the reason and you're not like, well, I'm not really sure what happened because you understand the reason it works that way. The point of what I'm describing is understand that good SEO by itself does not mean more traffic, okay? It is. It is some of the equation. That's what you need to know. I feel like I've described this enough and I'm not going to just keep talking for no reason. So I hope this was a helpful episode and I'm going to end it right here. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe, and if you enjoy this podcast, please leave a review. It would really help the show out. I hope this episode was helpful. If you have any questions or want to suggest a subject for a future episode, you can contact me on Reddit. My username is Grumpy SEO Guy. You can visit the Grumpy SEO Guy subreddit or. Or you can email [e-mail] if you email me, please either whitelist my email address or check your junk folders because I've been told that my replies are going into the junk folder and it's probably because we're talking about things like SEO and backlinks, and I think those words will classify an email as spam. And if you want to support the podcast, because it's the best source of SEO information on the planet, and it's free. You can do [e-mail] Grumpy SEO Guy and I will talk to you later. You're listening to Grumpy SEO Guy, the SEO podcast that doesn't waste your time with nonsense that doesn't work. Join us next Wednesday for another episode.