Spiritual Warriors | 1

Summary

Podcast Summary: Guru: Don't Cross Kat – Episode 1: Spiritual Warriors

Introduction to the Harmonic Wealth Weekend (00:05 – 02:08)

In the opening moments of "Spiritual Warriors," listeners are transported to March 2009 at a bustling Hilton hotel in New Jersey. Ginny Brown, a clinical social worker, and her daughter, Kirby Brown, attend the Harmonic Wealth Weekend, a two-day seminar promising rapid personal and professional success. Although Ginny is typically uninterested in such events, Kirby's enthusiasm persuades her to join. The atmosphere is electric, amplified by enthusiastic cheerleaders who elevate the room's energy.

James Arthur Ray's Charismatic Entrance (00:17 – 03:57)

As participants settle, James Arthur Ray takes the stage, exuding charm and confidence. At 00:21, Ray captivates the audience with his message:

“Let’s talk about what’s changing right now in your world. You see, I firmly believe that you live in the most exciting time in our world history. It’s a time where science and spirituality are realizing that they’re sister studies.” (00:21)

Ray's engaging presence immediately wins over the crowd, with attendees laughing and nodding in agreement. However, Ginny Brown's professional instincts begin to sense something amiss, especially as Ray delves into deeply personal questions with audience members.

Deepening Involvement and Skepticism (03:57 – 06:40)

Later that year, Kirby drives to Sedona, Arizona, for the Spiritual Warrior retreat, investing nearly $10,000 of her life savings. This intensive five-day event is considered the pinnacle for Ray's followers. While Kirby remains enthralled, Ginny becomes increasingly uneasy, especially after attending another event with her father and witnessing Ray's manipulative tactics firsthand.

Participant Perspectives: Laura Tucker and Brandy Amstel (06:40 – 09:19)

Listeners are introduced to Laura Tucker and Brandy Amstel, two participants seeking transformation through Ray's teachings.

• Laura Tucker is a high-performing businesswoman grappling with undiagnosed depression and unsatisfactory personal relationships.

  “I was struggling with what I guess you could call undiagnosed depression.” (07:32)

• Brandy Amstel is a free-spirited artist yearning for stability and success.

  “I was doing the same thing over and over again with the same frustrating, insulting result just wasn’t leading me to have the type of life that I saw for myself.” (08:02)

Both women are drawn to Ray's promise of unlocking hidden potential and overcoming personal barriers.

The Spiritual Warrior Retreat Unveiled (09:19 – 16:05)

Participants arrive in Sedona to find rustic log cabins instead of the luxurious resorts they expected. The retreat kicks off with an intense head-shaving ceremony, intended as a metaphor for shedding past limitations. Laura feels unsettled by the coercive environment:

“There is no pictures of this. This is not for you.” (16:05)

Amid these rituals, Ray introduces the concept of "black bags," symbolic of old wounds and invisible barriers hindering success and happiness. He encourages deep self-reflection and breakthroughs, pushing participants to confront their inner struggles through journaling and meditation.

The Samurai Game: A Test of Faith and Silence (16:05 – 24:33)

One of the most harrowing experiences is the Samurai Game, where Ray declares himself as God and imposes strict rules:

“You are so worried about dying that you forgot to live, but we all have to kill ourselves.” (24:00)

Participants must perform competitive tasks in utter silence, nurturing an environment of fear and control. Laura's defiance leads to her being metaphorically "killed" in the game, forcing her to lie on the floor and watch as others are similarly subdued. The game’s intensity leaves attendees emotionally and physically drained, highlighting Ray's manipulative control.

Vision Quest: Isolation and Inner Struggles (24:33 – 26:02)

Following the Samurai Game, participants embark on a vision quest, spending the night alone in the desert to meditate and confront their "black bags." Laura and Brandy share contrasting experiences:

• Laura battles fears of wildlife intrusions and grapples with deep-seated insecurities.

  “I was terrified and making myself very small in my sleeping bag and just, like, praying that whatever it was would be satisfying enough.” (26:43)

• Brandy finds solace and peace in nature, embracing the solitude and clarity it brings.

  “I finally felt peace.” (27:57)

The Sweat Lodge Ceremony: The Climax of Control (26:02 – 35:37)

The retreat culminates in a sweat lodge ceremony, which Ray describes as a "death and rebirth experience." Participants enter a confined, tarped structure filled with heated stones, symbolizing an intense purification process. Ray ominously states:

“I guarantee that if you’re going to die.” (32:49)

Under extreme heat and psychological pressure, participants are pushed to their limits. The ceremony involves participants miming self-harm, breaking down their mental and emotional barriers. The oppressive environment and Ray's authoritative demeanor leave attendees physically exhausted and emotionally traumatized.

Aftermath and Unanswered Questions (35:37 – End)

As the ceremony concludes, Laura and Brandy emerge deeply affected by the intense experiences. The episode hints at unforeseen consequences, setting the stage for further exploration into the dark underbelly of James Arthur Ray’s self-help empire.

Conclusion

Episode 1 of "Guru: Don't Cross Kat" delves into the alluring yet perilous world of James Arthur Ray’s self-help retreats. Through the harrowing experiences of participants like Laura Tucker and Brandy Amstel, the episode exposes the manipulative and potentially dangerous tactics employed by charismatic gurus in their quest for control and influence.

Notable Quotes:

• James Arthur Ray: “You think you’re unlovable? Why don’t you go and write about that?” (16:05)
• Laura Tucker: “I had no idea where my stuff was. I didn’t know where my bag was.” (24:44)
• James Arthur Ray: “When you’re going into a lodge, symbolically you’re going back into the womb.” (34:41)

This episode serves as a chilling introduction to the complexities and dark sides of modern-day gurus, setting up a compelling narrative for the subsequent episodes of the series.

Transcript

[Ginny Brown]

It was March 2009, and in a big chain hotel in New Jersey, a crowd milled around, waiting. Once the doors opened, everyone headed for the same place.

[Kirby Brown]

It was a large auditorium with a big stage in front.

[Ginny Brown]

The event was called the Harmonic Wealth Weekend, a rigorous two day seminar that promised to get participants on the fast track to personal and professional success. It wasn't the kind of thing Ginny Brown was normally into, but her daughter Kirby had insisted that they go together. As they walked in, she had to admit the atmosphere was exciting.

[Kirby Brown]

And we had to walk through a gauntlet, I will say, of cheerleaders who were jumping up and down and revving up the energy in the room. And I remember saying to one woman, I said, man, you girls really had your coffee this morning. And she said to me, oh, we don't drink coffee. Like, that's poison. And I was like, oh, okay. Well, I do and I love it.

[Ginny Brown]

As everyone took their seats, the lights dimmed. James Arthur Ray stepped onto the stage and began a version of a speech he often gave.

[James Arthur Ray]

Let's talk about what's changing right now in your world. You see, I firmly believe that you live in the most exciting time in our world history. It's a time where science and spirituality are realizing that they're sister studies.

[Ginny Brown]

James was tanned, with a bright white smile, wearing a bright white shirt, pretty.

[Kirby Brown]

Trim, athletic build, fairly good looking.

[James Arthur Ray]

Just can't get going in the morning without my coffee. Give me a fricking break.

[Kirby Brown]

Total command of the audience.

[Ginny Brown]

People laughed. They nodded their heads like, yeah, you.

[Kirby Brown]

Know, that high energy kind of environment is just kind of fun. You, you want to be part of it. You want to belong. You don't want to stand out and be kind of against what's going on.

[Ginny Brown]

Because James Ray was a star.

[James Arthur Ray]

Law of attraction says like attracts like. And as you lock your attention upon that, then another particle which is in harmony with it is attracted and another's attracted, another's attracted. Now, bang, you've got a Mercedes.

[Ginny Brown]

On stage, he talked about reflecting on yourself and your position in life. Then he began to pull audience members onto the stage and ask them questions.

[James Arthur Ray]

And I'd like to ask for two volunteers to help me out here. I need a couple volunteers. Okay, come on, both of you, come on up. Give them a hand, Give them a hand as they come up.

[Ginny Brown]

At first, Ginny was impressed.

[Kirby Brown]

I was fascinated by his ability to really read someone. You know, he read people really well.

[Ginny Brown]

But as she watched, something began to nag at her.

[Kirby Brown]

There are a couple of times where he brought people up on the stage and had them reveal very deep, personal, troubling things in their life.

[Ginny Brown]

Ginny is a clinical social worker.

[Kirby Brown]

And I sat there thinking, hmm, you know, as a trained therapist, those are the kinds of questions that I would ask if someone were sitting in my.

[Ginny Brown]

Office, not in front of hundreds of people.

[Kirby Brown]

I was both fascinated and uncomfortable.

[Ginny Brown]

She turned to her daughter Kirby, who.

[Kirby Brown]

Is mesmerized, just said, you know, that's, you know, that's, that's really not such a great thing to do.

[Ginny Brown]

But Kirby was focused on James. Kirby was in her late 30s and had bounced around careers and relationships. She wanted more success and stability in her life. Ginny knew that Kirby had been doing her own soul searching and that James teachings had already helped.

[Kirby Brown]

And she was going to stay there to get the most out of the experience, whether she believed everything or not. But neither of us ever thought he was dangerous.

[Ginny Brown]

Later that year, after attending another James Ray event with her father, Kirby Brown would get in her car and drive to Sedona, Arizona for a five day intensive retreat with James called Spiritual Warrior. For James followers, it was the pinnacle event of their journey and Kirby spent her life savings, nearly $10,000, to be there. The retreat started on October 4, 2009. Five days later, Ginny was at home in upstate New York. Around 8am, the doorbell rang.

[Kirby Brown]

At 8:15, the trooper comes to the door and asks me if I know Kirby Brown. You know, my first thought was, oh my God, is she in some kind of trouble?

[Ginny Brown]

But it was more than trouble. Ginny would never see her daughter again. Wonderheap Less subscribers can binge all episodes of Don't Cross Cat early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

[Matt Stroud]

When Luigi Mangione was arrested for allegedly shooting the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, he didn't just spark outrage, he ignited a cultural firestorm. Is the system working or is it time for a reckoning? I'm Jesse Weber. Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi. Exclusively on Wondery.

[Ginny Brown]

From Wondery. I'm Matt Stroud and this is Guru. The first time I met James Arthur Ray, I was at one of his events. I was in Phoenix working on a story about him. I was fascinated by how James had managed to evolve from a small time corporate motivational speaker to a self help celebrity who filled ballrooms with people who'd paid thousands of dollars to be there. The event I attended was in suburban Phoenix. And just like Ginny Brown and her daughter Kirby, I was impressed by how polished and confident James seemed on stage. About midway through the event, he came over to me. He was shorter than I expected, but muscular. He shook my hand firmly.

[James Arthur Ray]

So, Mr. Matt, how are you enjoying the day so far?

[Ginny Brown]

I'm enjoying it quite a bit. Yeah. Well, I actually am. Well, good.

[James Arthur Ray]

I'm glad.

[Ginny Brown]

He had a big smile when he spoke. He looked me straight in the eye and he was charming.

[James Arthur Ray]

Well, I appreciate being here.

[Ginny Brown]

I really do. We all want to see our lives get better. We all struggle with our relationships, our careers, our finances. And when things go wrong, we look for help for answers. This is a six part series about the search for those answers and where it led the Seekers this is episode one Spiritual warriors. The search for answers is what led Laura Tucker to James Arthur Ray. For a long time, Laura had been unhappy. She ran her own business, working with car dealerships in Canada, and she'd always prided herself on being a high performer, professional, collected, competent.

[Laura Tucker]

On the personal side, though, things weren't as bright and shiny as business had been. I was struggling with what I guess you could call undiagnosed depression.

[Ginny Brown]

Laura had moved across the country for work and she didn't have any family or friends in her new city. She wasn't happy with her love life either.

[Laura Tucker]

I still had some designs on having my own family. I was dating like one bad guy after another.

[Ginny Brown]

Whatever she was doing, it wasn't working.

[Laura Tucker]

Doing the same thing over and over again with the same frustrating, insulting result just wasn't leading me to have the type of life that I saw for myself.

[Ginny Brown]

It was around this time that she heard about James Ray. He'd made his name in the film sensation the Secret. His charisma and charm leapt off the screen. He promised viewers that he could help them find happiness, money and love.

[James Arthur Ray]

You will learn more about yourself than you could ever imagine. We get into your beliefs and the things that have limited you and where they've come from and how to release those and break through your barriers.

[Ginny Brown]

Brandy Amstel, then in her mid-30s, heard James pitch too.

[Brandy Amstel]

So the promise was get rid of the black bags that are holding you back in your life. The things that are buried so deep that you don't even know they exist.

[Ginny Brown]

Brandi is something of a free spirit. She has colored streaks in her long blonde hair and she loves to express herself through art. She's been a painter and a sculptor, and in 2008 she'd been trying to launch herself as a filmmaker. But like Laura, she felt as though her life just wasn't Going the way she wanted. And James sounded like someone who could help her.

[James Arthur Ray]

You see, I am so totally committed to not just giving you an event, but to giving you a transforming life experience. And that's what you deserve.

[Brandy Amstel]

Listening to these words at this point in my life, what new insights will happen?

[James Arthur Ray]

You'll begin to feel like a load is lifted off your shoulder. I guarantee you. Talk to some of the people in the room who have been there, and.

[Brandy Amstel]

It was extremely swayed to get you to want to be 100% in.

[Ginny Brown]

At the time, James was traveling the country holding events like the one Ginny and Kirby Brown went to. But there were also chances to go deeper, to spend more time with him. Those events were a ladder from harmonic wealth to quantum leap to creating absolute wealth to modern magic and to practical mysticism. At the top of the ladder was Spiritual Warrior. As Brandy climbed the ladder, she heard those who had already been there rave about it.

[Brandy Amstel]

It's by far the best of all the programs. It's, like, mind blowing.

[Ginny Brown]

The pamphlet for the event was short on specifics. On one side were photos of Sedona's striking desert landscape. On the other, a list of things to pack.

[Brandy Amstel]

Eight little swatches of fabric, one inch by one inch. And then you had to bring, like, lip balm and, you know, those kinds of things like personal care items and a swimsuit or shorts, trunks.

[Ginny Brown]

But other than that, no one would really tell her much about the event itself, except that she had to go.

[Brandy Amstel]

There's this secrecy of nobody wanted to spoil the event. I didn't really know what was going on, so there was a little bit of anxiety about, oh, my gosh, what's gonna happen?

[Laura Tucker]

What's gonna happen there?

[Ginny Brown]

In October 2009, Brandi flew into Phoenix, met up with some friends, then drove north to Sedona. They passed huge red rock formations on the horizon, Majestic buttes, crimson canyons that seem to stretch into oblivion.

[Brandy Amstel]

It's like this magical place that's. It's gonna be so amazing. It was, like, so divine.

[Ginny Brown]

After about two hours, they turned off the main highway, and then we drive.

[Brandy Amstel]

Up on this dirt road, and it's dirt flying everywhere. And I'm like, ugh. Okay. This is not what I anticipated.

[Ginny Brown]

Previous James Ray events she'd attended had felt fancy resorts, destination tourism, five star hotels. These were places that suited the successful person she wanted to be. She had paid over $50,000 for that lifestyle and $10,000 just for spiritual Warrior. But instead of a resort, here was a cluster of log cabins. When she arrived, Brandy was shown to her tipi, a meager tent covered in green canvas that would serve as her home for the event. Nearby, Laura Tucker was settling into her teepee.

[Laura Tucker]

It's rustic, beautiful but rustic. And it was very much like going to camp, to grown up camp.

[Ginny Brown]

Laura figured it would be like the other James Ray events that she'd attended. Fun, high energy, affirming and.

[Laura Tucker]

And it was very, very different right from the get go.

[Ginny Brown]

That first day, James called everyone into a large cabin that would serve as their main meeting place for the week. He was wearing a business casual outfit, A white button down shirt tucked in with the sleeves rolled up. Khakis, brown loafers. There were long tables with enough room for about 60 people to eat and chat. Laura thought they were there to hang out, to get to know each other, get ready for the next day.

[Laura Tucker]

The next thing I know, somebody is pulling out a shaver and saying, okay, it's time to shave your heads.

[Ginny Brown]

A woman stood holding a set of hair clippers. Everyone turned toward her. The room was quiet for a few moments. Then another woman with thick, long black hair stood up from one of the long tables behind Laura. She bounded over to the chair and sat down. Strips of black locks fell to the floor, one after another. When the woman stood up again and faced the room, she was totally bald. Everyone cheered and clapped. The woman beamed as she fast walked past Laura back to her table.

[Laura Tucker]

That immediately threw me off balance and not in a way that I appreciated.

[Ginny Brown]

Laura began moving farther and farther to the side of the cabin, trying to stay out of sight. One by one, attendees volunteered to sit in the chair to shave their heads.

[Laura Tucker]

One of the men who I hadn't met before saw me hanging to the side and took the shaver or one of the shavers and came walking up to me and said, okay, it's time.

[Ginny Brown]

Everyone, including James, was cheering her on.

[Laura Tucker]

I wasn't having anything to do with it.

[Ginny Brown]

At that point, this wasn't what Laura had expected. She got out of there fast. James had told them to bring a journal to write down their thoughts and feelings over the week. So she pulled it out of her bag.

[Laura Tucker]

You know, from the first, most superficial level of if you don't want to shave your head, you're hung up on your appearance. I was having a struggle with feeling like I wasn't playing full on.

[Ginny Brown]

Play full on. This was a key slogan of James Ray's teachings.

[Laura Tucker]

On one hand, I didn't want to shave my head, and on the other hand, I wasn't playing full on. And that Set up a huge conflict.

[Ginny Brown]

She kept writing.

[Laura Tucker]

I was writing in my journals about, why is it that I was so hard on myself and writing. I was so unforgiving of myself. I let people walk all over me. In my personal life, this whole pattern of hiding and concealing myself, it was kind of convoluted, but it was around appearance.

[Ginny Brown]

James teachings were based around making breakthroughs, achieving moments of epiphany about one's life, where it was headed, and what was blocking success, whatever that might mean. This event was about digging deep into your black bags, A metaphor for old wounds and invisible barriers to progress and happiness.

[Laura Tucker]

I was going into my inner world, exploring all of these black bags.

[Ginny Brown]

But she kept hitting roadblocks. She felt like the answers were beyond.

[Laura Tucker]

Her, like I just wasn't getting there. And I finally said to him, obviously, I don't see it. If you're so smart, why don't you tell me? And he just looked at me. He says, you think you're unlovable? Why don't you go and write about that?

[Ginny Brown]

This time. As Laura wrote and reflected, something began to shift.

[Laura Tucker]

You know, why would I date unsuitable men? Because I didn't think I deserved more. Why would I stay in a business that I had long fallen out of love with? Well, because I didn't think I deserved more. It was like everything became clear.

[Ginny Brown]

She knew she wanted to try new things, to take risks. It would be worth it if she could be happier, more successful.

[Laura Tucker]

It finally got to the point where all the dots connected for me, and it became clear that I was hiding behind my parents. The clippers were really loud when they turned them on, and I closed my eyes, waiting to feel it touch my head. And just before that happened, I opened up my eyes, and I saw that somebody was poised with a camera to take pictures of me having my head shaved. And I absolutely lost it and said, there is no pictures of this. This is not for you. The shaver went over my head, and it was vibrating and strong. The next thing I saw when I did dare to open my eyes was my hair on the ground around me and a whole bunch of people just looking at me with their eyes wide open and, you know, with smiles on their faces. I remember just feeling a sense of relief that it was over. It must have been adrenaline.

[Ginny Brown]

This was it, a breakthrough. This was what Laura had been looking for when she signed up.

[Laura Tucker]

And to me, that's the whole point of doing this type of inner work. It's not the glamour or the fame or the fun or the stages or certainly it's you meet cool people. But at the end of the day, if you're looking to go on this kind of journey like I was, I wanted to get to the heart of the matter because I wanted to feel better.

[Ginny Brown]

But she didn't get to savor that breakthrough for long. The surprises of the spiritual warrior retreat were just beginning. James told Laura and the others to come to the main cabin. Once they were all assembled, James entered.

[Laura Tucker]

And he's dressed in a long, white flowing robe that's tied at the waist.

[Ginny Brown]

He walked to the center of the room, raised a megaphone to his mouth and said, I am God.

[Jesse Weber]

Some people get a wild haircut or book a spontaneous trip when life throws them a curveball. But Molly, well, she dove headfirst into a world of no strings attached sex, secret rendezvous, forbidden affairs, and unforgettable adventures. And together we tell every juicy detail in Dying for Sex, Wondery's award winning podcast that's now streaming on a TV near you, starring Michelle Williams and Jenny Slate. And to top it off, we're dropping brand new bonus episodes where I sit down with the cast to spill all the spicy secrets, desire, friendship, self discovery, and the ultimate bucket list of pleasure. This is a story that had everyone talking. Listen to the original Dying for Sex and brand new episodes on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge the original series before anyone else and completely ad free on Wondri.

[Matt Stroud]

In the early hours of December 4, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of midtown Manhattan.

[Ginny Brown]

This assailant pulls out a weapon and.

[Brandy Amstel]

Starts firing at him.

[Matt Stroud]

We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world. And the suspect he has been identified.

[Ginny Brown]

As Luigi Nicholas Mangione became one of.

[Matt Stroud]

The most divisive figures in modern criminal history.

[Ginny Brown]

I was targeted, premeditated. Admit to sow terror.

[Matt Stroud]

I'm Jesse Weber, host of Luigi. Produced by Law and Crime and Twist. This is more than a true crime investigation. We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever.

[Brandy Amstel]

He's awoken the people to a true issue.

[Ginny Brown]

Free, rich, free.

[Laura Tucker]

Finally, maybe this would lead rich and.

[Ginny Brown]

Hard to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our healthcare system.

[Matt Stroud]

Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery plus, you can join Wondery in the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

[Ginny Brown]

After James Ray introduced himself as God, he divided the room into two groups. He told them they were about to play something called the Samurai Game. The game was common at corporate Retreats as a team building exercise. Normally, groups would be divided up and given challenges, but James put his own spin on it. To start with, no one was allowed to speak in silence. James made them all perform small competitive tasks like balancing an egg on a spoon and racing from one spot to another. James was God, and no one was allowed to talk to God because doing so had consequences. But at one point, Laura Tucker went.

[Laura Tucker]

Up to him and I asked James a bunch of questions at a time where nobody was supposed to be asking him any questions. He looked at me as I was standing there earnestly asking him a million questions because that's what I would do. And then he just shook his head and went, die. And I looked at him and I was like, fuck.

[Ginny Brown]

Laura dropped to the floor. The rules said that if God killed you, you had to lay on the floor for the rest of the game. And it wasn't a short game.

[Laura Tucker]

I could hear people moving around, stepping over me. Some were kind of giggling, some were like, oh, you know, poor Laura.

[Ginny Brown]

Minutes passed, then hours.

[Laura Tucker]

And I don't think I had quite worked out at that point that being out of the game meant that I was going to miss dinner. So I was lying on the ground and hearing people leaving the room to go to the dining hall.

[Ginny Brown]

Brandy Amstel, the filmmaker, was there too.

[Brandy Amstel]

So it was a very strange dynamic where you might have wanted to say something, but then you didn't because you saw the repercussion of it.

[Ginny Brown]

Brandy watched Laura and others drop to the floor. She followed the rules and remained silent. At first she thought she was doing well, winning. But after a while she started to wonder when the game would end.

[Brandy Amstel]

I saw people freezing on the floor, like so cold, not doing well. And we were all in silence, so we couldn't say, well, hey, what about the people that are dead?

[Ginny Brown]

The game dragged into the night. It became harder for people to stay quiet. James stood up on a podium to get a better view of the handful of people who remained standing.

[Brandy Amstel]

He told us that we were so worried about dying that we forgot to live, but we all had to kill ourselves.

[Ginny Brown]

James instructed them to pull out imaginary swords from their belts. Then he told them to mime slicing their own throats.

[Brandy Amstel]

We couldn't talk about it, we couldn't work it out, we couldn't ask questions, we couldn't nothing. So we didn't die by God's hands per se. But we did end up having to commit cari carry.

[Ginny Brown]

The game was over. It had been about five hours when Laura rose. She was as stiff as a board, she stretched her sore muscles and looked around, confused.

[Laura Tucker]

I had no idea where my stuff was. I didn't know where my bag was. I didn't know where my water was. So I do remember running around in quite a panic.

[Ginny Brown]

Next, James led them all into the desert.

[Brandy Amstel]

So we all go out and we get dropped off at these different locations throughout the desert. It's nighttime, like, so dark. It's midnight after midnight, and we're walking through pastures on these little rock trails.

[Ginny Brown]

Brandi sat. So did Laura.

[Laura Tucker]

I don't think there were, like, assigned spots for people, but we were told, okay, you stay here, you stay here, you stay here. And the idea is that we were to spend the night on our own.

[Brandy Amstel]

I wasn't totally alone, but I really couldn't. I couldn't have a conversation. I could have heard them scream. If they screamed right, like, they were close enough for that.

[Laura Tucker]

We were to draw a circle around our space.

[Brandy Amstel]

We're supposed to collect rocks, put them in a circle, close the gate, like it's a whole ritual.

[Laura Tucker]

And that was to be our, I guess, sacred space or our physical space that we were to inhabit for that overnight.

[Ginny Brown]

James called this their vision quest. They would meditate and journal by themselves in the scorching sun of the day and in the cold, dry night to really focus their minds. There would be no distractions, not even food or water. Laura still remembers how she felt.

[Laura Tucker]

I was nervous, but I was also really excited to be able to do this because this is not probably something that I would do on my own.

[Brandy Amstel]

So all the way leading up to this event, I was like, oh, my God, I am not getting anything. I am. I don't know what these black bags are. I haven't found any black bags. I'm just here doing stupid stuff. And, like, when am I gonna get it?

[Laura Tucker]

I do remember during the night, there was some animal that did come, and there were the sound of this. There were hooves on the ground, and there was some kind of a tussle. And I have no sense of how close it was, but I was terrified and making myself very small in my sleeping bag and just, like, praying that whatever it was would be satisfying enough to whatever was taking it out.

[Brandy Amstel]

I actually found the exercise to be extreme, extraordinary. Like, I loved it. Finally. Finally, I get to be in nature by myself and actually have a conversation that could make a difference for myself. And finally, it was between me, the ants, and, like, the coyotes. I could hear coyotes and, like, the stars and the moon.

[Laura Tucker]

I loved it. It. It Was just a simple night out under the stars.

[Brandy Amstel]

And I felt such relief and joy. I finally felt peace.

[Ginny Brown]

When the vision quest ended, they had been out in the desert going through their black bags for 36 hours straight. It was early in the morning as they made their way back to the dining room. Brandy was tired and extremely thirsty. But she was barely going to have a break before the most intense part of the retreat yet. By now, everyone was starving. Some of the attendees hadn't eaten, drank, or slept since before the samurai game on Tuesday. Now, after the 36 hour vision quest, it was Thursday morning and Brandy was so thirsty at breakfast.

[Brandy Amstel]

I need something with moisture hydration. Some people didn't even do that. They were kind of feeling nauseous from their, like, adventure out in the desert. And so they didn't eat and they didn't drink water.

[Ginny Brown]

Everyone had to head over to the main cabin. Brandy grabbed a water bottle on her way out. Once she arrived, she settled into her seat and slowly scanned the room.

[Brandy Amstel]

Not all the team was there. There were people gone. Not everybody was there.

[Ginny Brown]

After the vision quest, two participants had decided to pack up their stuff and leave right after the samurai game. But no one from James's staff said anything about it.

[Brandy Amstel]

Wonder where those girls are? Did they get eaten by the mountain? L, like, really, where are they? What happened?

[Ginny Brown]

That's when James Ray walked in. He congratulated everyone for making it this far in Spiritual Warrior. Hearing from him gave Brandy some relief.

[Brandy Amstel]

He finally breaks the silence and we can start to debrief and talk about it.

[Ginny Brown]

Laura Tucker asked if anyone else had heard animals during the vision quest.

[Laura Tucker]

It was probably the first time that I had seen James since he killed me. We, like, literally just looked at each other and, you know, started had a laugh.

[Ginny Brown]

Brandi wasn't ready to share, but she eagerly listened to everyone's aha moments. One particular person stood out to her. Kirby Brown. She was the woman who had attended the harmonic wealth seminar with her mom, Ginny. Since then, she'd gone to more events. Spiritual Warrior was her third.

[Laura Tucker]

So I sang the song, rain, rain, go away, come again another day. And there was the rainbow. That was great.

[Ginny Brown]

Kirby had an artistic bent and loved to travel. She was boisterous and fun, always the life of the party.

[Laura Tucker]

When we started the game, I was like, you. I was like, I'm gonna be the hero, you know, and then I died so quickly, you know, just right there and before it even began.

[James Arthur Ray]

And then I froze to death.

[Laura Tucker]

And then I. Then I overheated to death and I Puked, and I swallowed it down underneath that pillow in there. Wow. Or underneath the blanket. I realized that being so disciplined, you know, that was incredible.

[Brandy Amstel]

I just was like, wow. So imagine going from that place, having been dead for hours and hours, and then straight out into the wilderness. She didn't get dinner now, so here she is, finally getting to break her silence and say some stuff. And it was. It was really moving.

[Ginny Brown]

James sat on an elevated chair and announced, we're not going to have lunch.

[Brandy Amstel]

At that point, he tells us, oh, you better go drink some water, because you're about to go on a sweat lodge, and it's better if you're hydrated. We're like, what?

[Ginny Brown]

James had been overseeing exercises that he called sweat lodges since at least 2003. His employees and people who'd been following him for years knew that these were harsh, challenging events. But in his speech, James called them sacred.

[James Arthur Ray]

So you're going to have an opportunity this afternoon to once again partake in a tradition, a sacred ceremony, and a practice that is as old as time itself, a death and rebirth experience. It's an experience that I promise you might very well be one of the most difficult things you've ever done with me, if not in your entire life. If you choose to play full on, which I'm going to challenge you to do, it will be the most intense experience, the most intense heat you have ever experienced in your entire life. I guarantee that you will feel as.

[Ginny Brown]

If you're going to die.

[James Arthur Ray]

I guarantee that.

[Ginny Brown]

Brandy had heard of sweat lodges before, but had never seen one in real life. James described it as a rounded structure covered with tarps. He ducked his head to show them just how low it was. He told everyone they'd have to squat down and crawl in.

[James Arthur Ray]

The person who's down here preparing our grandfathers is not just heating stones. He is praying over those stones. He's holding sacred space over those stones. He's setting intentions for a great experience for you over the stones. I'd start the fire, what, two, three hours before the sweat lodge, and then keep piling wood on it and just make sure the rocks are good and hot and ready to go when they were ready for them.

[Ginny Brown]

While James prepped the attendees, Ted Mercer was near the tent. A thin, bald man, James had made Ted the firekeeper. It was his job to heat up the rocks and make sure the tent stayed hot. When James and the participants arrived, he added more wood to the fire.

[James Arthur Ray]

And then he introduces me. And, you know, he asked me, how's the fire going? And I said it was the hottest fire we've ever had, you know, and they were all getting all excited about it and everything.

[Ginny Brown]

Ted's wife, Deborah Mercer, was also there to help with the ceremony.

[Laura Tucker]

I kind of felt responsible. I felt like I knew what was going to happen and I should be there to help the people. Basically. I knew there was more people and it was hotter and it was longer. But with James Ray, I expected extreme.

[Ginny Brown]

As Ted tended the fire, James led his followers to the tent for one final exercise.

[James Arthur Ray]

When you're going into a lodge, symbolically you're going back into the womb. You're going into the womb of Mother Earth. And symbolically, what you're going to do is to die.

[Ginny Brown]

Die symbolically. No one sitting in that room could possibly have anticipated what would happen inside the sweat lodge on this season of Guru.

[James Arthur Ray]

Because I can help you, but you have to be willing. You have to be willing to do what most people won't do.

[Brandy Amstel]

I didn't understand or know, you know, what had happened. I didn't know if this was like some kind of cult or a mass suicide or what. I could see women walking around with shaved heads, walking around almost like zombies.

[Laura Tucker]

I don't think I remotely even understood that life was being lost.

[Kirby Brown]

I don't remember hearing him say, I'm sorry. I was like, numb.

[James Arthur Ray]

I am not this body. I have a body. I'm not my limitations and lack. I'm more than that.

[Ginny Brown]

There were some pretty heated arguments about whether or not this was a crime from Wondery. This is episode one of six of Guru a story about the dark side of enlightenment. For more detail on James Arthur Ray and the scandal that shocked the self help industry, check out the podcast Real Crime Profile. As professional criminal profilers and analysts, they break down the criminal behavior of James Arthur Ray to figure out what he was thinking and why he did what he did in these pivotal moments. This episode was written and reported by me. Matt Stroud, associate producer is Asil Kipi, story editor is Casey Miner, sound design by Jeff Schmidt. Fans, fact checking by Sarah McClure, producer is Alex Jablonski, managing producer is Lata Pandya and executive producers are George Lavender Marshall, Louie and Hernan Lopez. For wondering, follow don't cross cat on the Wondery app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You you can binge all episodes early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey if you have a tip about a story you think we should investigate, please write to [e-mail] tips.