The Making of a Beauty Queen | 8

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary: "The Making of a Beauty Queen | 8"

Release Date: May 2, 2025

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Introduction

In the eighth episode of "Don't Cross Kat", hosts Chico Felitti and Fernanda Echeverri delve into the intricate process behind creating the podcast series, focusing specifically on the intriguing story of Kat Torres—a beauty queen with a dark underbelly. This episode provides listeners with an in-depth look at both the production challenges and the deeper psychological facets of Kat Torres’ life.

Behind the Scenes: Producing "Don't Cross Kat"

Chico Felitti and Fernanda Echeverri open the episode by discussing their collaborative efforts in producing the series. Fernanda, the senior producer based in Brazil, and Chico, working from the US, recount the extensive time spent in the studio to bring the story to life.

Fernanda shares insights into the production process:

“We recorded this series together in the studio. You were in the studio in the US and I was in the studio here in Brazil.” [00:22]

Their dynamic partnership is evident as they navigate the complexities of telling Kat Torres’ story, highlighting their commitment to uncovering the truth behind her facade.

Kat Torres: The Beauty Queen Behind Bars

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to exploring Kat Torres' unexpected participation in a beauty pageant within a Brazilian prison. Chico and Fernanda examine the juxtaposition of Kat’s glamorous appearance with her incarcerated status.

Chico describes Kat’s appearance during the pageant:

“She looks stunning, I gotta say.” [03:36]

Fernanda raises concerns about the fairness of a supermodel being placed alongside “normal” inmates:

“It’s kind of unfair to throw a supermodel into a jail of, quote, unquote, normal women.” [04:24]

They discuss the uniqueness of holding a beauty pageant in prison, a phenomenon that has emerged in Brazil over the past six to seven years. Kat Torres was crowned the queen of her current jail, a testament to her enduring beauty and influence despite her circumstances.

Psychological Insights: Kat’s Transformation and Media Attention

The hosts delve into Kat’s psychological state, highlighting her initial depression following her arrest and the subsequent upliftment she experienced through the beauty pageant. Chico elaborates on Kat’s mental health struggles:

“She had an initial time. She had an initial process of getting depressed and quitting her medication while she was in jail and going through a deep depression.” [05:11]

Fernanda questions whether media attention has become Kat’s primary source of meaning:

“Is the only meaning in your life the attention that you get from others because of your beauty?” [08:02]

Chico concurs, acknowledging Kat’s reliance on external validation as part of her modus operandi:

“She always taught people that they should manage to get control over other people through your beauty and through your youth.” [08:27]

Kat’s Journey in Beauty Pageants

The episode provides a detailed recount of Kat’s foray into beauty pageants. Chico narrates how Kat transitioned from modeling in Italy to competing in the Miss Sao Paulo beauty pageant in Brazil.

Chico explains:

“She was a natural. She was really convinced that Kat was one of the favorites to win the crown.” [09:46]

Kat advanced to the quarterfinals out of approximately 40 contestants, garnering national attention through live broadcasts. However, her lack of emotional display—a stark contrast to the typically expressive Brazilian contestants—led to her elimination.

Fernanda reflects on the cultural significance of emotional expression in Brazilian pageants:

“They're big emotion showers. They do cry, they're like, I am physically better than you.” [12:02]

Investigative Journey: Uncovering Kat’s Dark Side

Fernanda and Chico discuss the pivotal moment that shifted their perception of Kat from a social media influencer to a subject worthy of deep investigation:

“What we realized was that followers, young women, were actually being taken to the US to live with Kat Torres.” [17:58]

This revelation prompted Chico to probe further into allegations of trafficking and exploitation, transforming Kat's seemingly harmless online persona into a sinister figure manipulating her followers.

Chico admits his initial skepticism:

“It was kind of cringy. But I couldn't keep my eyes off of her Facebook page.” [19:21]

The hosts emphasize the relevance of Kat’s story in the context of excessive social media reliance and the deceptive facades individuals maintain online.

Personal Reflections: The Dark Side of Social Media

Throughout the episode, Chico reflects on his own use of social media, acknowledging the deception inherent in presenting a curated image to the public.

Chico states:

“Social media is based on deception. In the Brazilian version, I narrate how I had a bad fight with my husband and it was Valentine's Day... I wasn't talking to my husband when I posted a picture of the two of us kissing.” [21:58]

This introspection underscores the broader themes of authenticity and manipulation in digital interactions, paralleling Kat's exploitation of her followers.

Struggles to Interview Kat Torres

Despite numerous attempts, Chico and Fernanda faced challenges in securing an interview with Kat Torres. Legal hurdles and Kat’s fluctuating mental health made direct communication difficult.

Chico explains:

“Her lawyers always said she was not ready yet because she's not on the right medications.” [24:33]

Ultimately, the inability to secure an in-person interview led to the decision to proceed with the podcast series without Kat’s direct testimony, relying instead on her letters and the accounts of those close to her.

Final Thoughts: Perceptions of Kat Torres

In the concluding segments, Chico shares his nuanced perspective on Kat Torres, balancing respect for her achievements with condemnation of her manipulative actions.

Chico remarks:

“I do have a ton of respect for her because I don't think one might ignore where she came from. She was miserable... She was able to achieve so much with the little life she had.” [28:09]

However, he firmly states:

“I don't respect what she's done, but I respect her path to getting what she got.” [28:27]

Fernanda appreciates Chico's candid reflections, highlighting the complexity of Kat Torres as a “deeply flawed, fascinating person.”

Conclusion

Episode 8 of "Don't Cross Kat" masterfully intertwines the production journey with an in-depth analysis of Kat Torres' persona and actions. Through candid conversations, anecdotal evidence, and personal reflections, Chico Felitti and Fernanda Echeverri present a compelling narrative that not only explores Kat’s enigmatic life but also critiques the pervasive influence of social media in shaping modern identities.

Notable Quotes:

• “We’re still. On the upside.” – Chico Felitti [00:46]
• “She always taught people that they should manage to get control over other people through your beauty and through your youth.” – Chico Felitti [08:27]
• “I do have a ton of respect for her because I don't think one might ignore where she came from.” – Chico Felitti [28:09]

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Transcript

[Chico Felitti]

Wondery subscribers can binge all episodes of Don't Cross Cat early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Fernanda.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Chico.

[Chico Felitti]

I guess I should tell folks who you are, right?

[Fernanda Echeverri]

I guess so.

[Chico Felitti]

You and I have spent a wild amount of time together. We recorded this series together in the studio. You were in the studio in the US And I was in the studio here in Brazil.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Y.

[Chico Felitti]

You're my senior producer. The senior producer of Don't Cross Cat.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Are you sure you want to spend even more time with me? You haven't gotten sick of me yet?

[Chico Felitti]

No, not yet. I mean, we can do. I would say we can do two more podcasts before I'm through with you.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

That's your limit. Okay. Okay.

[Chico Felitti]

We're still. On the upside.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

You got to ask a lot of questions reporting on this story. And now I want to ask you some questions, because for this episode, there were a few things that we didn't get to talk about in the making of the series that we wanted to bring up, especially something that happened after we wrapped.

[Jesse Weber]

Right.

[Chico Felitti]

So I guess we'll be talking about the recent news and how it helped us understand where Cat Taurus is both mentally and physically. Right?

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Yes. And we're also going to take a look behind the scenes and get to know you a little bit more, Shiko, and how reporting on this story may or may not have changed you.

[Chico Felitti]

I'm so much more skeptical than I was 18 months ago.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Okay, so let's do this.

[Mr. Ballin]

When Luigi Mangione was arrested for allegedly shooting the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, he didn't just spark outrage, he ignited a cultural firestorm. Is the system working, or is it time for a reckoning? I'm Jesse Weber. Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi, exclusively on wondery.

[Lindsey Graham]

Hi, I'm Mr. Ballin, the host of Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries. And each week on my podcast, you can expect to hear stories about bizarre illnesses no one can explain, miraculous recoveries that shouldn't have happened, and cases so baffling they stumped even the best Doctors. Listen to Mr. Ballin's medical mysteries on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jesse Weber]

From.

[Chico Felitti]

Wondery. I'm Chico Felitti, and this is episode 8 of Don't Cross Cat with Fernanda Echeverri. The making of the show and the makings of a Beauty queen.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Okay, Chico, so you have something to show me, right? I'm gonna open up my phone since we're not in the same place. Let me open up my phone.

[Chico Felitti]

Yeah.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

I just sent you a photo you're.

[Chico Felitti]

Gonna show me via WhatsApp, which is something Americans are not very familiar with, but we are.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

I know. I'm Mexican. I'm. I'm in the Latin American WhatsApp crew, so I get you. Okay, so let me open it up.

[Chico Felitti]

So this is the picture of Kat Taurus winning a beauty pageant.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Oh, look at her.

[Chico Felitti]

Yes. Inside the penitentiary where she's an inmate, there's two photos.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

One of them is a group shot. They're all wearing long white dresses. And the other one is the individual photo where Cat is wearing sort of a. Like a dark green dress with some lace. And in both of those photos, honestly, not a hair out of place. Her hair is tucked on the side a little bit on one side, so it's blonde. Soft waves to the side with a maybe red lip color situation. Can't go wrong with both looks.

[Chico Felitti]

She looks stunning, I gotta say.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

She doesn't look like she's, like, in prison. I mean, none of these women look like they're in prison.

[Chico Felitti]

No, they do. They're in a quinceanera.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

They kind of do. You're right.

[Chico Felitti]

It's sort of a quinceanera vibe.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Okay, so how does someone in person end up looking like this? How does this work?

[Chico Felitti]

Yeah, it's really peculiar. Not common at all in Brazil, but they do hold a beauty pageant in this specific all female jail in Brazil. It's something somewhat new. It's been around for six or seven years. But they do have a beauty pageant that will crown the most beautiful female inmate in Brazil. And Cat Taurus was crowned the queen of the jail she's in currently.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

I mean. I mean, she was a supermodel. So it's kind of unfair to throw a supermodel into a jail of, quote, unquote, normal women. So I want to, like, raise a flag, like, excuse me, Judge unfairness here.

[Chico Felitti]

Yeah, so do I. I mean, of course she would win. She was a supermodel. She was on billboards on Sunset Boulevard. I mean, the odds were in her favor.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

But I have to say. And you know, while we were reporting the series, there was a documentary that came out from the BBC. And, you know, she didn't look great. And I know at one point you said that you heard from somebody that was close to her while we were reporting on this that she didn't. She wasn't eating. She didn't look well. She doesn't look unwell in this photo.

[Chico Felitti]

Yeah, I think it's a tad complicated because we do have to take in consideration she's been arrested for over a year now. So she had an initial time. She had an initial process of getting depressed and quitting her medication while she was in jail and going through a deep depression. She describes a deep depression. She describes losing over 40 pounds, experiencing hair loss and being extremely depressed in jail. But that was a while ago. That was over a year ago. And apparently, what we can take from these pictures in the beauty pageant, at least she looks. Well, she looks healthy. She looks beautiful.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

I'm looking at another picture now where it's just Kat with what looks like, I don't know, some sort of prison official. She's holding, like, a prize.

[Chico Felitti]

Yep.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

What could possibly be in that box? What did she win? I can't tell by zooming in. What did she win?

[Chico Felitti]

I do recall that the first place would take home a. How do you call them? Iron planks in English, the ones to use to iron your hair.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Oh, like a flat iron.

[Chico Felitti]

A flat iron, yeah, precisely. And the table fan as well, which are two very useful things, honestly.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Great prices.

[Chico Felitti]

They are. And she was awarded both of them.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

In or out of prison. Great prices.

[Chico Felitti]

Great prices.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

But I'm sure in prison, those are even better things to have, like, very coveted items.

[Chico Felitti]

Yeah.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Getting into, like, more serious topic, though, what do you think is actually going through her mind, Kat's mind? Because we know that she went through some really dark moments while in prison, and then she has this moment of. I'm imagining, you know, it wasn't just sprung on them that they were having a beauty pageant. I'm sure that she was looking forward to it. Maybe she wasn't. I don't know. What do you think is going through her mind during all of this, during the show and when she wins?

[Chico Felitti]

What I've learned from her family and the people close to her is that she was really thrilled about it. It was the first time she had a glimpse of hope and she had a glimpse of excitement over anything that happened since she was arrested. But I do think we should also address the fact that now that she's getting more media attention, her life seems to be filled with meaning. Now that she's sought after, now that people have interest in her life again, that she felt abandoned in this first period in which she was arrested, that she felt left out. And now that the media include us in that as well, we cannot be hypocritical about it. We also got in touch with her, with her family. We wrote her letters. So There was a certain level of attention she got, and she seems to be satisfied with the attention she's getting from the media.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

I don't even know what to do with that, because I want to say, like, you know, my initial reaction is like, I'm glad that she's not in a dark place. I'm glad that she's, you know, wakes up in the morning and finds some sort of meaning with her existence. But then it's also kind of like, ugh. But is the only meaning in your life the attention that you get from others because of your beauty?

[Chico Felitti]

But I do think that it summarizes very well her life story, the way she was treated since a kid and the way she started treating other women when she gained power and she conquered influence. She always taught people that they should manage to get control over other people through your beauty and through your youth. So I do think it makes a lot of sense. It's her motto. So horrendous.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

You know, in the episode where we get more into Kat's backstory, you know, there was so much to get into that we didn't dive too deep into the fact that she actually competed in a beauty contest in Brazil at a national level. Right. So she did start with beauty contest. Can you get into that a little more?

[Chico Felitti]

When she was about 23, she was living in Italy, but not really getting the modeling job she thought she would get once in Europe. So she headed back to Brazil to enter the Miss Sao Paulo beauty pageant. I spoke with Jay Pollitou, one of the people who worked for the beauty pageants. He helped run the pageants all over Brazil.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

You know, I only understand a little bit of Portuguese. So what is he saying there on that tape?

[Chico Felitti]

So he's pretty much saying there are two ways to enter a competition. The first one is the regular way. You enter by winning a local city pageant, then the state one, and then you get to represent your state in the national competition. The other way is to get nominated by someone and go straight to the state competition. And that's the way Kat did, since she didn't even live in Cairo, she had never set foot there in that city.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

And was she at least good? Because it's one thing to, you know, model for photographs. It's another to do the whole beauty pageant. Like, you gotta walk the walk and have this, like, miscongeniality personality and know how to do the whole thing.

[Chico Felitti]

You know, hope for world peace. And she did.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Yeah, yeah, you gotta do all that.

[Chico Felitti]

She did pretty good. According to Jenny Polito the men who trained her remotely at first, by video calls, because she was in Europe. He describes her as a natural. So Jean says he had to teach her a couple of things, like walking like a beauty queen and to wave softly and very delicately. But she. He says it wasn't all that much teaching. He says she was a natural. And one of the good things, besides being beautiful, being very pretty and very model, like, she already spoke some English, which was essential. And it's not very common in Brazil. If you want to go higher, if you want to go to Miss America or Miss Universe, Miss World, you have to be bilingual.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Ms. Calleres.

[Chico Felitti]

Cachitojis.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Okay, so she's in the contest. She's on tv. I can see her in this video. She's walking to the front of the stage. She's got, you know, one hand on her waist. She's smiling at the judges. She totally looks like she's done this before, by the way.

[Chico Felitti]

Yeah, she does. That's when she makes it to the quarterfinals, I guess. She's among the 12 or 10 finalists of the contest in a contest that held close to 40 contestants.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

And at this point, I mean, this is being broadcast on live national tv, right? Which means that Kat is being seen all over Brazilian households that night, right?

[Chico Felitti]

She got her face seen by millions of Brazilians. But unfortunately, Ms. Riverao Preto, she didn't make it through the semifinals. She got the shot, but she showed zero emotion. So that was also something people noticed that many contestants, especially Brazilians, we were criers. We're big emotion showers. They do cry, and they do show the stress. They do show sadness on stage, but she didn't.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

But even the beauty queens, they're not taught to just smile and wave, and they actually break down.

[Chico Felitti]

And they're like, one thing is being trained to do something. The other is doing it with excellence. And we're not good at it. I mean, we do praise emotions. I think we do take emotions really seriously, and that's not frowned upon in Brazil. That's seen as strength. That's why some people raised their eyebrows when she got the word that she had taken the chop, and she didn't react.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

And what did her trainer say? Was he surprised that she didn't make it farther?

[Chico Felitti]

He was shocked. Jean was really convinced that Kat was one of the favorites to win the crown. And he says, till this day, she was one of the best contestants he has worked with.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

So then after this, what did Kat do next?

[Chico Felitti]

She got on a plane and flew right back to Europe Never took part in a beauty pageant again.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

I mean, until prison, of course.

[Chico Felitti]

Yeah.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

What do you think it was about beauty pageants for her? I guess it's sort of easy to think that so much of it is about validation for her. Right. But maybe it's about a different form of validation. Maybe it. Maybe, maybe the beauty pageant is a very sort of physical representation of the grading of your looks, the physical comparison to your peers. To stand next to someone and be like, I am physically better than you. I don't know. What do you think?

[Chico Felitti]

I do think there's an aspect of comparing yourself strictly physically with someone, but there's also something that is we do respect. Beauty queens in Brazilian culture is very rooted in the 1950s and 60s. We had Marta Hocha, who was our ultimate beauty queen. She was Miss Universe and she's praised until this day. So I do think it's a form of validation that is more respected than being a Runway model, for instance, or a photographic model, for sure. So I do think there was something about status there as well. Had she made it, she would have gained recognition and fame with a little more respect than other professions in which women use their beauties or their bodies to work. I would say that winning Miss Universe would be the equivalent of getting an Academy Award.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Wow. Interesting. I didn't know that about Brazil.

[Chico Felitti]

Yeah, it's really respected.

[Jesse Weber]

In 1976, a Georgia native, Navy veteran, and peanut farmer named Jimmy Carter won his bid for the presidency. What Carter didn't know then was that the next four years would be the most difficult he could ever imagine. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery's podcast, American Historytellers. We take you to the events, times and people that shaped America and Americans, our values, our struggles, and our dreams. In our latest series, we explore Jimmy Carter's time in the White House, from his unexpected presidential victory as an outsider vowing to clean up Washington to his remarkable diplomatic breakthroughs and legislative accomplishments on energy, education, and the environment. But Carter also faced crushing challenges as he worked to lead the country through energy shortages, sky high inflation, and the Iran hostage crisis. Follow American historytellers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today. As a contractor for the nsa, Edward Snowden had access to a range of top secret government programs. But as he learned more about these clandestine operations, he understand a Devastating. The government was conducting mass surveillance on its own citizens. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondry show American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, whistleblower Edward Snowden changes the national conversation about privacy on the Internet as he risks his own freedom and his family's well being. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to all episodes ad free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Okay, Chico. So I'm wondering, like looking back at when you made this podcast the first time in Brazil, in Portuguese, at what point did you say, I have to tell the story of Kat Torres? Because as we learned in the last episode, you, when you interviewed Leticia Tupinamba, you knew who Kat Torres was because of her meme page. You know, back before you ever thought you would do a story about her. Then you saw her life coach profile. But once the story becomes dark, at what point, as a journalist, do you say, okay, I'm going to investigate this and I'm going to make a podcast about it?

[Chico Felitti]

I mean, there is a clear moment in which I decide it's a story worth investigating, which is when I realized that followers, young women, were actually being taken to the US to live with Katharis. Because up to this point, she was a joke. I mean, she was a literal joke. She made memes out of her own face with dad jokes. So it was kind of cringy. But I couldn't keep my eyes off of her Facebook page. And then she became this influencer who would show clothes and meditation and the American dream, which wasn't that much of my interest. We have many of those in Brazil. We have a whole niche of influencers who moved to the US and are somewhat successful there and are portraying that 24 7. So that wasn't quite interesting. But when I realized that what people were talking about on Twitter and on social media in general had some truth to it, that she might have trafficked some of her followers to live with her and explore these young women, I did realize we had a big story there. And that's when I started investigating. Because it sounds like mumbo jumbo, right? It sounds like Internet conspiracy theory. The first time you hear it or you read about it, you're like, no, that. That's nonsense.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Yeah, you're looking at this woman and you're like, her? Really?

[Chico Felitti]

Yeah. And you look at her post on Instagram, and she's like, entering Gucci and buying ugly monogrammed bags. And it's like, no, I mean, she's harmless. Until the point I got in touch with Leticia's family and realized these young women were actually missing, probably because they. They had been trafficked to the US and then I was like, no, shit got real. This is serious. This deserves deep investigation.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

And the original version was such a huge hit in Brazil. I mean, congratulations. First off, why do you think this was such a huge story with a Brazilian audience? What about Kat's story resonated so much with Brazilians?

[Chico Felitti]

I do think it's a case that resonates a lot because we're dwelling too much on social media. Our virtual living is excessive. I would say we're living too much on social media, and we're spending too much time on social media and relying too much on avatars who are not real people. And we're trusting people. We should not. So I do think that there's the fact that everyone's on Instagram or TikTok or Facebook, depending on your age and where you live, more than they should. So I do think people can connect to a story like this one, in which someone you think you know or you think you have some closeness with turns out to do bad things.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

You know, we've talked so much about how much we live online and how much Brazilians live online. And in episode one, when we in the audience sort of gets to know you, you tell us how you became a social media influencer as your journalism career took off and your podcast and your books brought you Instagram followers. All of this is bringing you sponsorships and ad opportunities. Make that money.

[Chico Felitti]

Yep.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

So I'm curious, what was it like to tell the story of the dark side of social media when you yourself are. Prof. From social media. Because you're not on the dark side. Let's also make that very clear. There's a dark side of social media.

[Chico Felitti]

I mean, I sort of am. Let's. Let's be honest here. I'm part of the problem as well.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Is profiting dark.

[Chico Felitti]

I do think so, because I do. From where I stand now and from all the transformations I went through with this investigation, I do think that we're all deceiving someone on social media all the time, including me.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

But you can't put yourself in the same category. Like, there's got to be categories.

[Chico Felitti]

I know it's not. I'm Not a criminal. But I am. For instance, this morning I posted an ad for a beauty line for a cosmetic company, and they paid me good money to start using their products after 38 years of not doing skincare. So they paid me decent money, a lot of money to start doing skincare because I was the guy with the wrecked face. I'm the 38 year old who looks 50, and I made a lot of money by just using cosmetics, just doing skincare. Is that fair? I mean, I'm not lying to my audience. I'm trying to be as honest as I can. But then again, I'm not showing the whole portrait of my life on social media. And people do have the perception that they're familiar with me and they're close with me and they know me and they know my family and they know my dogs. So there's a little. It's a game of deception. Everyone's playing a game of deception on social media. And I include myself in this. Of course, I'm not a criminal. I'm not trafficking people or anything. But I do think that social media is based on deception. In the Brazilian version, I do narrate how I had a bad fight with my husband and it was Valentine's Day in Brazil, and I felt impelled to post a picture with him because I knew that would bring me likes and that will bring me shares and people would react to it. So I wasn't talking to my husband when I posted a picture of the two of us kissing, and I declared my love to him on social media. And that was a lie. And I don't think it's only me. I think everyone. I think social media pushes us to show the good sides of our lives, even when there's no good side.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

I want to switch back to Kat for a moment here. Well, about you and Kat, because throughout the time that we worked on this English version of the podcast, we came really close to doing an interview with Katie in prison. You were in Brazil, and there was a time where for maybe five or six weeks, every week that we met, it was like, we might do the interview this Friday or we might hear about the interview this Friday. It might happen this Friday. It might happen this Friday. And there was a lot of back and forth. Yeah, let's share a little bit of what was going on with the interview with Kat and who you were in contact with.

[Chico Felitti]

So I grew close to Kat's family, her closest friends as well. We've been in touch for over two years now. And her lawyers and I say Lawyers in plural. Because she changed a lot her legal team. There was an ever changing of lawyers. And every new lawyer would say, she's interested in talking, she wants to talk to you, but she's not quite ready because she's not on the right medications. She's still depressed, she's not feeling like herself. She's unable to articulate what she needs to speak correctly. So we would wait, and there would be many instances in which she would say, okay, next week, she's ready to have you in jail. She's ready to meet with you and would have to order a court permission to enter jail. Because that's how it works in Brazil. You have to actually ask the judge for an authorization to interview someone in the jail. And we've done that three or four times. But then when push came to shove, her defense would always say, no, she's not ready yet. We have to wait a little longer. We have to wait a little longer. So ultimately, we couldn't wait anymore. The series had to be launched. But she did exchange letters with me, so I was able to reach her even though I wasn't able to record her voice.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

And we really tried for folks to hear from Kat directly, but it didn't happen. I just have two more questions for you, and one is, and I want to make it known for our US audience that we are everybody in the presence of Brazilian podcast royalty. Chico Felitti is a master behind the microphone in Portuguese. And you know, as somebody who did not myself, I did not grow up speaking English. I learned English when I was 15 years old and I'm almost 40. And I feel like I am one person in English and one person in Spanish. I feel like my tone of voice is different. I am more high pitch in English. I am more like low pitch in Spanish. I. I don't know. I feel. I feel this way. And I'm sure a lot of people who are bilingual can relate. And I'm wondering if you feel that way, like, now that you've recorded this whole podcast in English and you're doing interviews in English now.

[Chico Felitti]

Absolutely.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Obviously you, you know, you've spent a lot of time in the U.S. you're bilingual. But, like, what was that experience like for you?

[Chico Felitti]

I hate the sound of my voice in English. I hate the tone of my voice. I sound dumb and I sound straight in English, which are two things, I promise.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

You sound straight.

[Chico Felitti]

I mean, I've been told that I'm not. I'm not telling that about. I'm not shining the light upon myself. But I've been told you sound so straight in English, which is something I'm not.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Also, you like how I didn't even focus on the fact that you said I sound dumb in English. I'm like, well, let's forget that you don't know. I'm like, you sound straight.

[Chico Felitti]

I'm kind of dumbish.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

No, you don't. You don't.

[Chico Felitti]

It's. It's. As you said, it's a whole different personality. And I'm trying to get acquainted with it, and I'm trying. I'm really trying hard to like it, but it's so hard to like this new personality.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

So my last question for you is. And it's actually something that I haven't asked you this whole time that we've been working together, making the series.

[Chico Felitti]

Okay, now I'm leaving.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

No, no, no, don't leave, don't leave, don't leave. Now that we're totally done with everything, right, like, the series has wrapped and you have a full understanding both of Cat's backstory, but also the level of damage that she caused, I'm curious how you see her. How do you see Kat Taurus?

[Chico Felitti]

That is a tricky question because it might sound controversial and it's hard to articulate it in English, but I do have a ton of respect for her because I don't think one might ignore where she came from. And she was miserable. I mean, she came from an abusive family. She was really poor. The odds were not in her favor. The world was playing against her, and she managed to do. How can I put it? She was able to achieve so much what the very little life had given her. Life had given her beauty. And she managed to do a lot with it. She was able to fabricate an affair with Leonardo DiCaprio. She was able to be cast in a music video for the Fast and Furious franchise. She managed to make money in the US and that's not easy. At the same time, of course, it's very reprehensible what she has done with that power she achieved. And I do think she needs to be held accountable for the crime she committed. And I do think that story should be told as a cautionary tale. I don't respect what she's done, but I respect her path to getting what she got.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Interesting.

[Chico Felitti]

That's why I find her a fascinating character. A fascinating person.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

A flawed, fascinating character.

[Chico Felitti]

I would say a flawed, fascinating person. Deeply flawed, fascinating person.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Well, thank you, Chico, for letting me sort of flip the microphone and put it on you this time.

[Chico Felitti]

It's been a pleasure. It's so much easier being on the.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

Other side of the table.

[Chico Felitti]

Follow Don't Cross Cat on the Wondery App, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery App or Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey if you have a tip about a story you think we should investigate, please write to [e-mail] Tips from Wondery this is Dom Krasn. Cat Don't Cross Cat is hosted and reported by me, Chico Felitti. Senior Producer is Fernanda Echabari, who we just heard. Producer is Andres Caballero. Associate producers are Giovanna Romano Sanchez and Otavio Bonfa. Theme song by Mariana Romano mixing by Stephanie LeBon and JJ Karube. Sound Supervisor is Marcelino Villalpondo, Project Product Manager is Nancy Trujillo and supervising Senior Production Manager is Jessica Ellis. Managing Producer is Heather Baloga. Development Producer is Olivia Weber. Senior Development Editor is Rachel B. Doyle. Production services by Futuru Studios Executive producers for Futuru Studios are Marlon Bishop and Maria Garcia. Executive producers for Wondery are Russell Finch, George Lavender, Marshall Louie and Jen Sargent.

[Mr. Ballin]

In the early hours of December 4, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him.

[Mr. Ballin]

We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world and the suspect he has been identified as Luigi. Nicholas Mangione became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history.

[Chico Felitti]

I was targeted, premeditated, Admit to sow terror.

[Mr. Ballin]

I'm Jesse Weber, host of Luigi Produced by Law and Crime and Twist. This is more than a true crime and investigation. We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever.

[Fernanda Echeverri]

He's awoken the people to a true issue. Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our healthcare system.

[Mr. Ballin]

Listen to Law & Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery plus in the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.