Cosmic brownie crimes.

Summary

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Hacking Humans – "Cosmic Brownie Crimes"

Podcast: Hacking Humans
Host: N2K Networks
Episode Date: August 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the deceptive world of social engineering, cyber scams, and how advances in technology and AI are lowering the barriers to cybercrime while magnifying potential harm. The hosts—Dave Bittner, Joe Kerrigan, and Maria Varmazes—discuss everything from international crackdowns on scam operations to the dark side of classic American snack delivery fraud, and new predatory housing scams targeting vulnerable homeowners. The conversation is laced with humor, practical advice, and memorable moments that make the harsh realities of cybercrime accessible and engaging.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Follow-Up: Backpacks, "Encrapification," and Defensive Personal Branding

• [00:43-14:27]
• Joe’s Oakley "Kitchen Sink" backpack receives cult status for its durability and utility:
  • Has lasted over 14 years, "When this one fails, I'm just going to buy another one." (Joe Kerrigan, 03:23)
  • Contains various features such as reinforced hardware, separated compartments, and even suspected capability to hold a defibrillator.
  • Humorous speculation on designing a defibrillator-integrated backpack and the potential for a "Kerrigan Official" line.
  • Maria jokes the backpack is so large "I would tip over if I wore this thing." (Maria, 06:21)
• The panel discusses brand "encrapification," referencing how legacy brands (like Pyrex) have changed for the worse, often due to venture capital buyouts (09:11).
• Defensive tactics for personal info online:
  • Joe proposes poisoning AI-generated info about yourself with deliberate falsehoods as a DIY decoy, analogous to a "honeypot for AI scams." (13:02–14:21)
  • Maria notes, "There are certainly certain tells that I will be listening for if they come up in conversation...that will tell me how they got their information." (13:52)

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2. Burma’s Draconian Anti-Scam Law & Ethical Concerns

• [14:46-16:54]
• Burma/Myanmar introduces capital punishment and forced labor to combat scam compounds after an enormous crypto seizure.
• Joe and Maria express skepticism over whether the right people will face consequences:
  • "My concern is that the people that are gonna get punished are the people that are already being abused here." (Joe, 16:33)
  • Maria: "I have a feeling the people who will be punished are not the people really perpetrating this stuff." (16:26)
• Discussion on how punitive measures may harm workers already held in forced labor rather than the masterminds.

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3. Cosmic Brownie Crimes: Snack Fraud in West Virginia

• [16:54-24:28]
• Joe shares the story of a delivery driver caught faking invoices for Little Debbie snacks and double-selling them at flea markets, leading to $17,000 in losses for the distribution company.
• Maria is incredulous at the recklessness: "You just straight up didn't do it. Who would check? Everybody's gonna check." (20:30)
• Dave jokes, "Don't mess with Big Snack," reflecting how seriously such crimes are regarded. (22:13)
• Process over Trust: The narrative pivots to process controls as the ultimate protection against fraud in business:
  • "What these companies...did was they had an inventory process...that demonstrated that they had never received these snacks." (Joe, 22:31)
  • The importance of checks, signatures, and process verification—advice equally critical to cyber environments.

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4. Predatory Foreclosure & Equity Stripping Scams

• [25:16-38:56]
• Maria highlights a surge in foreclosure and equity-stripping scams, targeting vulnerable homeowners as foreclosures spike 21% in 2026.
• Foreclosure Rescue:
  • Scammers pose as companies able to "save your home" for an upfront fee, only to disappear—often after identifying victims via public records swiftly.
    • "She lost $9,000 to scammers, and she never got that money back." (Maria, 28:56)
• Equity Stripping:
  • Even worse: scammers deceive homeowners into unwittingly transferring their property for a fraction of its value, or even the whole title, often through legal trickery or exploiting impaired individuals.
  • Heartbreaking account: A man with dementia was targeted and had his home stolen; family loses over $100k in legal costs trying to undo it (33:50).
• Key Advice:
  • Red flags: upfront fees, pressure to act immediately, instructions not to seek legal counsel or talk to your lender, requests to transfer your title, or to sell below market value.
  • "Always with anything relating to property...you should definitely contact an attorney or a trusted advisor." (Maria, 36:15)
  • Dave shares: "Your impulse is going to be to clam up and hunker down. He said, that's the opposite of what you should do. ... Your banker does not want you to go out of business." (Dave, 37:25)

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5. The DIY Cybercrime Revolution: Phone Farms as a Service

• [39:26-43:40]
• Dave walks through an Infosecurity Magazine report: anyone with money and low ethics can now subscribe to AI-driven phone farm kits that make industrial-scale scamming easy.
• These kits include hardware, management software, documentation, and even customer support.
• AI removes language and technical barriers—no more specialized skills required.
  • "Cybercrime is starting to look less like hacking and more like subscribing to software." (Dave, 42:01)
• Joe objects to the "Fun Phone Farm" name, suggesting true hacker style would use more "ph" spellings. (41:21)
• The group coins "scamming as a service" or "ScaaS." (43:20)

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6. Catch of the Day: The Double-Dealing Barb Johnson

• [43:58-46:38]
• The team reads a scam bait exchange in which "Julie" (alleged Powerball winner) offers $100,000–$200,000, with instructions to claim the prize through "Agent Barb Johnson."
• Maria riffs with a meta joke: "Barb Johnson! She works for us. That two timing—! I knew she wasn't visiting her uncle."
• Tangent on phone battery anxiety leads to... heart attack jokes and learning about Joe’s health, in classic Hacking Humans fashion.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Backpacks:
  • "I have never seen a laptop that wouldn't fit into it."
    (Joe, 06:33)
  • "Joe's backpack is like Mary Poppins bag."
    (Dave, 06:49)
• On Defensive Personal Branding:
  • "Sort of biographical decoys."
    (Dave, 14:15)
• On Process as Defense:
  • "Your processes, your processes, your processes. That's what's going to save you."
    (Joe, 23:24)
• On Housing Scams:
  • "She lost $9,000 to scammers, and she never got that money back."
    (Maria, 28:56)
  • "This gentleman had dementia...the scammer convinced him to sign over ownership of the property....the family tried to fight this in court...financial loss...between a hundred thousand and one hundred fifty thousand dollars."
    (Maria, 33:33)
• On Scamming as a Service:
  • "You can basically buy into something like this, and it operates as a service. The infrastructure has become productized, and AI is filling in the gaps."
    (Dave, 42:01)
• On Scammer Naming Conventions:
  • "Far more in line with hacker culture to call it Fun Phone Farm, spelling fun and farm with pHs."
    (Joe, 41:21)
• On Avoiding Housing Scams:
  • "Always with anything relating to property...you should definitely contact an attorney or a trusted advisor."
    (Maria, 36:15)
• On Double-Dealing Scammers:
  • "We don't mess with Little Debbie. We take that real serious."
    (Maria, 22:08)
  • "Don't mess with Big Snack."
    (Dave, 22:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Backpack Detour & Product Quality: [00:43–12:23]
• Poisoning AI Data / Defensive Info: [12:30–14:27]
• Burma Anti-Scam Law: [14:46–16:54]
• Cosmic Brownie Crimes (Snack Distribution Fraud): [16:54–24:28]
• Foreclosure & Equity Stripping Scams: [25:16–38:56]
• Phone Farms & AI Crime Kits: [39:26–43:40]
• Catch of the Day (Powerball/Barb Johnson): [43:58–46:38]

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Takeaways

• Processes save companies and individuals from fraud more reliably than trust.
• Scams evolve with technology—AI and "as a service" models lower the bar for criminal entry.
• Public record vulnerabilities (like foreclosures) are ruthlessly exploited.
• Always verify complex transactions, especially around wealth and property, via trusted advisors.
• Cynical, darkly funny banter helps digest the gravity of modern cyber scams.

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For more on any of these topics, check the show notes for referenced stories and product links.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to the Cyberwire Network, powered by N2K.

[B]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Hacking Humans podcast, where each week we look behind the social engineering scams, phishing schemes and criminal exploits that are making headlines and taking a heavy toll on organizations around the world. I'm Dave Buettner and joining me is Joe Kerrigan. Hey there, Joe.

[C]

Hi, Dave.

[B]

And our N2K colleague and host of the T Minus Space Cyber Briefing, Maria Vermazes. Maria.

[A]

Hi, Dave. And hi, Joe.

[B]

We've got some good stories to share this week, but first, let's get to some follow up. What do we got here, Joe?

[C]

Well, we got two things. First, Jalion writes in and he says hello. All this may be silly. There's a few conversations that float around about Joe's backpack. And now I am interested, not taking his advice or a referral, et cetera. What backpack does Joe use that he loves so much and us airports fear? Yes, I am looking for a new backpack.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

All right, so we're going to put a link in the show notes for

[A]

this, but the affiliate links, right, you're going to make a little.

[B]

That's right. Joe's got a little backpack side hustle going on here.

[A]

Joe's an influencer. Oh, my gosh. Joe.

[C]

Florence.

[B]

Oh, that's. See, Joe, you could have the official Kerrigan backpack. Hadn't thought about that.

[C]

Yeah, that's a good idea, Dave. You know, over there, sitting on the couch there, I have, you know, probably close to $800 in Oakley products. But anyway, the glasses are prescription, so maybe that's why. But the backpack I use is the Oakley kitchen sink backpack.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Yep. And it's actually called that.

[B]

It's a little on the nose.

[C]

It is called the kitchen sink.

[A]

Wow. You were kidding.

[B]

I'm just imagining you, Joe, at the backpack store going through and saying, ah, let's see. All right, Camper special. No, let's see. Here's the Adventurer Plus. No. Ooh, kitchen sink. Hold on.

[C]

That's for me. You know, I first saw this backpack when I was working in my very first cybersecurity job, which was doing secure development and systems integration for software developers. Anyway, software products. Anyway, my boss at the time, Chris, had one of these backpacks and I was like, how do you like that backpack? He goes, I absolutely love it. And I have had this one backpack since, like 2012.

[B]

The same one.

[C]

The same one.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

I mean, the only backpacks I've had that have lasted this long. The Lands End backpacks are also very good.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Know, my sister had one of those that she used through like middle school and then she got sick of it, wanted something cooler because they're not exactly glamorous looking backpacks.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But I used that through college and my daughter used it through some of high school and then my son used it and that was good until my son left some food in there and Kevin the dog got. Just tore it up trying to get to the food. So it does not survive dogs well, especially if you put food in it. This backpack, however, I think would keep a dog out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Looks like it's made out of Kevlar or something.

[C]

It does. This kitchen sink backpack, this thing is. I've had this now for like 14 years, and when this one fails, I'm just going to buy another one.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And so far, only one thing is broken on it, and that's one of the. One of the clips that's on the front has broken. And when I'm looking at this backpack, because they don't sell the exact model I have anymore, but they have something similar. It looks like. Well, it kind of looks like the same. The same clips on the front that they had that I have. It's just that mine are red and all the hardware on mine is silver and I don't think they make that anymore. But the stealth black, the kitchen sink in stealth black, that's the color. And then they have other colors as well, like total coyote, tiger camo, green mist, and then deep olive. But I would still go with the black one.

[A]

What is that hardware in the front? There's some. I don't even know how to describe this. Not hooks or.

[B]

Yeah, they're like carabiner receivers.

[C]

Right, exactly.

[B]

In case Joe needs to, I don't know, winch a Jeep out of a mud hole he can click into the

[C]

back of his backpack.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I will say this. Those are not as good as you think they'd be. Oh, you think?

[A]

What are they for? I just don't understand.

[C]

I imagined at one point in time they were for hooking a water bottle to it. You get one of those water bottles with a carabiner on it and then you clip it on there.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah. Maybe you're thirsty. I don't know, maybe your water bottle, your coffee thermos and your flask. Right. So you're all prepped for the day from morning till happy hour. But I will tell you this. When I had, I did put a water bottle on there once. And that thing just kept hitting me in the butt with every step. I Took. So, I mean, I tried it, and this one was working up at Hopkins, and I had, like, I deliberately gave myself, like a half mile walk every day from the parking garage to my office. So I would get the steps in and. And be a little fit. Didn't really make me less thin, but

[A]

it didn't make you less thin.

[C]

I got off this. Off the. Yeah, I got out of the elevator, and then right after the elevator, there was a bridge. I got off the bridge and took the bottle off and just carried it because it was so annoying. But otherwise, I have no complaints about this thing. It has been awesome, and it holds everything I carry with me, and it is great. Airport. It does go through airport security pretty well. It does kind of fit under a seat. I've never had anybody. I've taken this on every flight I've gone on since I've gotten it, and I've never had anybody say, that's too big. It has to go in the overheads.

[B]

I was just gonna say, there is no way that that thing fits in that little box they have before you board the plane.

[C]

It's my personal carry on.

[A]

So, Joe, how tall are you? Just remind me.

[C]

Six feet.

[A]

Okay. I'm five one. I would tip over if I wore this thing laid in as you do. It looks like it's three quarters of my height. Just look.

[C]

It's pretty big.

[A]

Yeah. I could not wear this.

[C]

I have never seen a laptop that wouldn't fit into it.

[B]

Wow. You could fit a cray 100 in there.

[C]

Yeah. And it's got a nice, easy access zipper on the side for the laptop. So you don't need to go rummaging around the whole backpack just to get to the laptop.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm just sure if you fit your child in there.

[B]

Joe has. Joe's backpack is like Mary Poppins bag.

[C]

Right.

[B]

It has everything in there.

[C]

It does, yeah.

[A]

How are your vertebrae doing? They're fine. They're fine.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I'd be more concerned about my discs between my vertebrae. Yeah, yeah, they're fine. I do occasionally get a pain in the very far left side of my chest from where that strap hits me.

[B]

That's called a heart attack.

[A]

No, it's not.

[C]

I often worry about that. You know, like, that's the first thing that comes to my mind at my age. Am I having a heart attack? But then, you know.

[A]

Or is it my Oakley backpack?

[B]

That's right. This backpack is making me wonder if I have heart attacks.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Well, I'll just keep using it.

[C]

Yeah. It does have A little compartment on the bottom that you can put your shoes in that you can keep. So it will take up space in your bag.

[B]

So.

[C]

But it will keep your dirty shoes away from everything else in the bag. It separates it. It's got a little bag around it.

[A]

See, I need a plastic bag for that.

[B]

There's probably room in there for a defibrillator, right? One of those little portable kits.

[C]

Yeah, that would be awesome.

[A]

Just hook it up, integrate it into the straps. You don't even need to get it out.

[B]

No, that's funny.

[C]

It's a great idea.

[B]

All you have to do is rip your shirt open and it's already pre positioned.

[A]

You're good.

[C]

Then put that gel on for the conductive gel. Yeah.

[B]

And then you just hit a button and clear.

[A]

Don't mind me.

[B]

Oh, all right. Joe. Yeah. If you patent that, I think Maria and I should be co patenters on it.

[C]

Right.

[B]

The backpack defibrillator. Oh, my gosh. All right, so we have a link to Joe's backpack in the show notes. We also have a link to a YouTube video that has a ridiculously oversized backpack. If you're curious what Joe's backpack looks like is not far off from this YouTube video. I also put a couple other links in here for backpack shoppers. There's a website called Worse on purpose. Really? Yeah. And it's all about. It's the encrapification of things. How basically when venture capital gets a hold of something, they make it worse.

[C]

Oh, God, yes.

[A]

And this is a rabbit hole. I love it. Oh, my goodness, I thank you for this.

[B]

Yeah. Just yesterday I was reading all about how like, Pyrex isn't Pyrex anymore.

[A]

Oh, don't even get me started on that. Don't even get me started on that.

[C]

If it's not Pyrex, it's.

[B]

The formulation is different. It's not. So if you want real Pyrex, you got to go either got to buy it from Europe or you got to buy. Go to the thrift store and buy old stuff.

[A]

Oh, and the thrift stores know. So if you see it in all capital letters, that's the old school. And if it's in lowercase, it's the new school. And I have old school and new school Pyrex cooking utensil device, whatever they call the glass.

[C]

Wait. Yeah. Is the formulation of the glass different?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yes. And you can even see it. So I have some of my grandmother's Pyrex and the glass is beautiful and clear and indestructible. And then new Pyrex has like a green cast to it. Yeah. And other things. But yeah.

[B]

So anyway, they did a deep dive on backpacks as well. So the point being that some of those old tried and true trusted brands that you think of when you think of well made backpacks may not be anymore. So it's worth reading this to find out what that's about. But then I also put a link in here to a company called Porta Bracelet. So Porta Brace is world famous for making bags that you put your professional broadcast video cameras in.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

So I have a bunch of them from my previous career. Porta Brace bags are the most ridiculously over engineered things you will ever cross paths with in your life.

[A]

Love it.

[B]

They are indestructible. If you do somehow damage it, you can send it back to Porter Brace, they will repair it, they will clean it, they will send it back to you. You can send it back to them to just clean it and they'll clean it and send it back to you.

[A]

So refreshing.

[B]

Yeah. That's so nice. They're made in Vermont, handmade in Vermont. Imagine a factory full of ladies with big industrial sewing machines. That's what polar brace is.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

They are very expensive. I think they do have a backpack and it's around $500.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

But I can without hesitation recommend their products because they're just indestructible. Like they. Again, it's as if somebody said make something that someone cannot destroy, and that's what they do. I have Porta Brace bags that are 30 years old that look like they're brand new. I've never had a structural failure or any kind of. I've never had any sort of product disappointment with a Portabrace product. And I've used them for decades, so.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, they're kind of a secret. You know, a lot of people don't know about them outside of the broadcast industry because that's the center of their bullseye. But they make a lot of other things that are kind of cross useful, not cheap. But if money's no object, if you have the means, I highly recommend them.

[A]

Wow. Yeah, this is what a good recommendation. Seriously. You should get affiliate links going for this.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah, they're really good. All right, well, thank you for the follow up there, Joe. Anything else before we move on? Yeah.

[C]

Last week we were talking about, during Maria's story, we were talking about poisoning data for AI and that got me thinking.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[C]

About these scams that go out and these scammers go out and scrape the Internet. They feed everything into an AI that generates profiles about you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And do you remember probably about three months ago, four months ago, we were talking about a cybersecurity researcher who poisoned some AI by telling everybody he was a world hot dog eating champion?

[A]

Yes. Yes. Yep.

[C]

I thought, why not do that with your own stuff? Like, for example, if I was going to put up a webpage about Joe Kerrigan.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I could put up a bunch of information that's true. Right. That I talk about here all the time.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And I could say, and Joe Kerrigan lives. Has been a lifelong Marylander and all these other facts about me. But put in some facts about me that are not true.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. Like I love crabs.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Every Marylander loves crabs except Joe. I can't stand them.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So, you know, you know, put things in there that would be like a red flag. So if someone was talking to you and they say, I see you really like crabs, and then, you know, immediately, ah, this is somebody who got the. The bogus information about it.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

Yeah. Well, don't reveal it on the show.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because eventually the transcript will be published and they'll know. But, yeah, that's. It's something I have definitely been thinking about. Whether or not I have implemented it, I don't want to say. But there. There are certainly certain tells that I will be listening for if they come up in conversation from, you know, a PR person or whatnot that will tell me how they got their information.

[B]

Very clever. All right. I like it. Sort of biographical decoys.

[A]

Yeah. Maybe we could call it like a honeypot for AI scams or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I like it. I like it. All right, well, I'll tell you what. Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors. When we come back, we will dive into our stories, so stick around. And we are back. Joe, why don't you kick things off for us this week? What do you got?

[C]

I've got two today, because I'm really only going to touch on the first one that I have. The first one is about Burma, or also known as Myanmar, I think. That's right. Burma's government has approved the death penalty as punishment for Internet scammers. And this is a story from Fox News. So this is after the FBI's $8 billion crypto seizure that they did. I think we reported on this a couple weeks ago.

[B]

Another great heavy metal band name. Crypto Seizure.

[C]

Crypto Seizure, right. What was the one last week? Blockchain Nightmare.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[C]

Maria, did you ever get a. I'm working on it.

[A]

I'm working on it.

[C]

All right. So, yeah, I don't know. We talked about last week how they were. How these scam centers do jurisdiction shopping where they go out and they might. Might try to bribe people. So I don't know how effective this will be as a deterrent, but it looks like Burma is not joking around about this anymore. You know, not that I would approve capital punishment for these people, but. Or necessarily for anybody. But I'm not particularly a big fan of it personally. But maybe this will stop some people from cyberscamming out of Burma. The anti online SCAM law mandates 10 years of prison in forced labor for cyber crimes and scam compounds.

[A]

Can I be really cynical about that for a second? I have a feeling the people who will be punished are not the people really perpetrating this stuff.

[C]

Right. My concern is that the people that are gonna get punished are the people that are already being abused here. The enslaved people that are being forced to do the work.

[B]

What if 10 years of hard labor is working in a scam compound?

[A]

Oh, it goes all the way down. Yeah. Scams all the way down.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

All right, so that's. We'll put a link to that in the show notes. But the one I wanted to talk about today touches on two of my favorite things. West Virginia and Little Debbie snacks.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[C]

So are you guys familiar with Little Debbie snacks?

[B]

I am.

[A]

Oh, heck yes. They raised me.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Now, for some reason, I associate Little Debbie snacks with camping trips.

[C]

Yeah, that's a. You know, I can see why you make that. Cause every time you're going camping, you just grab the Little Debbie shelf stable snacks and then you can just give them to the kids and then say, here, eat this. Chocolate loaded sugar bomb.

[A]

Yeah, have a cosmic brownie.

[B]

So what is the top of your list of favorite Little Debbie snacks? What's number one? Maria.

[A]

Oh, man.

[C]

Oh, I know where you're at.

[B]

I have an answer.

[C]

I have an answer too.

[A]

It has been a really long time since I've had one. Cause I can't stand them anymore. As a kid, I loved them, though. Oh, yeah, just. They're too sweet for me. I just can't do it. Okay.

[B]

Honestly though, I feel sad for you.

[A]

No, don't feel sad. It's a good. It's fine. It's all good. My favorite as a kid, and this is gonna make me sound really ancient, is I really loved those oatmeal.

[B]

Oatmeal cream pies.

[A]

I loved those. I really did. I was gonna say, I also really like oatmeal raisin cookies, so that usually gets me.

[C]

I know, I know, I know, I know.

[A]

Oh, my God. That's everybody's. I also really like licorice, which makes me sound like a million years old.

[B]

I love licorice.

[A]

I know, I know.

[C]

I love licorice, but, man, I hate raisins. In fact, I hate raisins so much, Dave, I'd rather have ants on a log with actual ants than with raisins.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

No raisins.

[A]

All right, now y' all have to answer. What are your favorites, then?

[B]

So, Davey, I said mine. Oh. Cream pie is my favorite.

[C]

My favorite is the Nutty Buddy, I think it's called. It's the.

[A]

That's a good one.

[C]

The chocolate one, though. Peanut butter wafer snack. That. I love those.

[B]

All right.

[C]

Those are great. Anyway, I'm going through puberty again. Anyway, this story is actually not about Internet or cybercrime, but it illustrates something I want to talk about with this story. This story is about a guy named James Powell who had a gig as an independent distributor with a company called Stuart Snacks, who I think is a distributor of Little Debbie Snacks. Either that or the company owns Little Debbie Snacks. I don't know which one. But anyway, Mr. Powell, this is all alleged. It has not been proven in court yet. So he is innocent until proven guilty, was investigated, and has since been arrested for this scam where he would falsify delivery invoices showing that these Little Debbie products had been delivered to retailers like Giant Eagle, Walmart, and others. These deliveries had never been made front row. Right. So it's not like he said, here's a hundred boxes of Little Debbie Snacks, and only gives him, like, 90. Right. He just didn't even deliver the snacks. Just forged people's signatures on the files or on the invoices and then sent them to the company, the Stuart Snacks company, to get. To collect his commission and to bill the retailers for them.

[A]

That's so reckless. I mean, you don't even have plausible deniability with that one going. Oh, oops. My mistake. I was a little short. You just straight up didn't do it.

[C]

Right? You just straight up didn't do it.

[A]

Who would check? Everybody's gonna check.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

So everybody, of course, checks.

[A]

We want our Cosmic Brownies. We want our Nutty Buddies.

[B]

Right.

[C]

We want Oatmeal Cream. P. The authorities are now seeking, like, $17,000 in restitution. So what he would do when he had these snacks. Because now what do you do with three shipments of snacks that you took from the distributor and did not deliver to the retailer? You take them to a flea market and you sell them as well.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Oh, wow. That's not what I thought you were going to say. I was imagining the Isle of Lucy where they're stuffing the chocolates in their

[C]

mouth real fast, just in the back of the truck.

[A]

Just like, quick, get rid of it. Okay. FLE markets, probably. Yeah, right.

[C]

So he's like, you know, if. If I. If I go in here and sell these things at a low, low price, I can make all this money. Not only do I get my commission for selling these things, but I also get to take the money for the snacks double. Yep, they have caught him. And here's the list of things they've charged him with. This is. According to the Washington County, Pennsylvania district attorney, Police are charged Powell with three felony counts of forgery, two felony counts of theft by deception, two felony counts of theft by unlawful taking, one felony count of deceptive or fraudulent business practices, three misdemeanor counts of tampering with records or identification, one misdemeanor count of theft by deception, one misdemeanor count of theft by unlawful taking, and two misdemeanor counts of deceptive or fraudulent business practices.

[A]

Listen, you don't mess with Little Debbie. We take that real serious.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

We don't do it.

[B]

Don't mess with Big Snack.

[A]

We throw the book at you.

[C]

So here's. Here's the part I want to focus on, why this is relevant to this show. We talk often about what is going to save you from getting. Getting scammed out out here. Getting scammed out of money.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Particularly in a business environment. And what these companies like Walmart and Shop and Save and Giant Eagle, all. All did was they had an inventory process where they take inventory in that process demonstrated that they had never received these snacks. So they didn't have record of receiving them. So when they got the bill, they called Stewart Snacks and said, hey, we never got these things. And they said, well, you signed for them. And they were like, oh, yeah, let me see the signatures. And they said, those are forged signatures.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

So that's. That's how this worked and went down. So these. These companies, these individual, you know, these retailers are not out any money. They have saved themselves because of their process, which I think is most dramatic, what we do here.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

You know, we say over and over again, your processes, your processes, your processes. That's what's Going to save, you know, the processes. Do the processes. And here we are seeing the processes working. Now, Stuart Snack has still lost out. Right. They've paid this guy a commission. They have lost $17,000 worth of inventory, and this guy has profited. And they're trying to get that back from him. I don't know that they will. If you look at the guy's mug shot, the guy doesn't look like the kind of guy to stash money away. So they may just take the hit on this. But the point is. But that's a risk with every employee that you hire or every. Actually, I think the guy was an independent contractor. So every independent contractor you work with, you run the risk of them doing something like this to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So you have insurance for this and other things to mitigate that risk. You can offload it. But that's really, really my point here is that the retailers had processes, followed the processes, and did not lose their money.

[B]

Yeah, we talk about, with, like, nonprofits, there's a common scam where someone will call and, you know, call the financial officer and say, I need you to write a check right away. You know, they'll pretend to be the executive director and say, I need you to write a check right away. I've heard of. I have multiple friends that this has happened to who serve on nonprofit boards. And so the process. The process is no one person can write a check, you know, for more than a certain amount of money. It has to be seen by at least two sets of eyes.

[C]

Right, Right.

[A]

No single point of failure. Yes. That makes a lot of sense.

[B]

Right. Yeah, that's interesting. All right, well, we will have a link to Joe's stories in the show notes. Maria, you're up. What do you got for us?

[A]

Yeah, so there's a story that was published through ABC News, the US ABC News, as well as a Indiana based ABC News affiliate, wrtv. And it's about a scam. Not necessarily new, but it's on the rise right now. And those are foreclosure scams and equity stripping scams. I was familiar with the first one of foreclosure scams, but not equity stripping. That one was a bit new to me. So a little context. Part of the reason why foreclosure scams and related scams are on the rise is apparently foreclosures are up 21% in the United States in 2026 alone, which is. Yeah, that on its own, just that that is a lot. So a lot of people are really hurting right now. And that that statistic comes from ABC News, some analysis that they did. So scammers are following that trend. They're seeing that, they're seeing the same thing. They're noticing that foreclosures are up. Something that is worth mentioning, something we've talked a lot about, a lot on this show, is foreclosures. Like many other things, they are public records. So when someone's home is in foreclosure, that filing is on, is on public record. It can be found often on the Internet quite quickly and easily. So just like if you get a mortgage or refinance or something, you get a spate of mailings. This is what happened to me recently about, you know, scammy, scammy stuff about your, your mortgage or whatever. Foreclosures are getting a similar treatment. So as soon as someone enters foreclosure proceedings, scammers can easily identify them very quickly and then start targeting them with phone calls, letters in the mail, emails, and sometimes even in person visits. And this tends to happen especially in locations where there's a cluster of foreclosures. Unfortunately, they tend to be in lower income areas. And that's actually part of the story that WRTV in Indiana covered, that there are some locations where there are just a lot of foreclosures happening and these scammers are quite literally going door to door and hitting people up. And unfortunately they're having some success. So backing up a second, let's first talk about the foreclosure rescue scams. Just for people who aren't familiar with what these are or how they work because it had been a little while since I'd thought about them. The idea with these is that you basically get a pitch saying that hey, we can help you save your home because you're in foreclosure. And that's a very uncomfortable place to be. So you fall behind in your mortgage payments and you're desperate. You go, you, you, a company or individual then says they can negotiate with the lender on your behalf or secure a loan modification, stop foreclosure proceedings or even lower your monthly payments. To do this, here's the, the ask is we just need a fee up front. So that's the, that's how they get you. As they, as I can hear Joe saying, so the homeowner in this case thinks here, someone's here to help me. Someone's here trying to do a good thing. I, I've heard of things like foreclosure relief services and the like. This must be one of those Things. This must be legitimate assistance. And of course, the. Unfortunately, the scammer is just going to take your money and run. So the ABC News Indiana affiliate actually talked to someone. Her name is Allison Doris, who went through this exact situation. She lost her job during the COVID pandemic. She. Her home entered foreclosure, and she was directed to a company. I'm not quite sure how. I think they just. They called her. The scam company called her and said that, hey, we can help you save your home. And she thought that that money that she was gonna pay would help her out and help her keep her home. And Instead she lost $9,000 to scammers, and she never got that money back. And, you know, her home was still foreclosed. So just kicking people when they're down, just the scummiest of the scum of the earth. That's truly just awful.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean, these are the roof of her people's heads. I mean, I just. My God. Anyway, so there's an evolution of this terrible scam. And the phrase that is being used for this one is called equity stripping. And I had never heard of this. So kudos to ABC News for covering this, because this is how I learned about it. And these equity stripping scammers, they don't just call you or mail you. They may, as I mentioned earlier, actually show up at your front door. So these scammers are not interested in collecting a fee like in the previous example of Ms. Doris, who lost $9,000. They actually want your house's equity. So this is the stuff that you've already paid into your house. This is, you know, the. This is the. The portion of your home's value that you own outright. So, you know, all those years of mortgage payments that you legitimately were able to do, that's your home's equity. Right. For most of us who are not extremely wealthy, this is. This is our biggest, you know, nest egg. That is, the nest egg is like your home's equity. Right? And it's. If, you know, the hope is that when you pass on, you can pass that equity on to your. Your kids, if you have any. And that's how generational wealth happens. I mean, it's. That's for a lot of us, that's how it works.

[C]

Right?

[A]

And right now we have this sort of perfect storm of house values are going way, way up, especially for homes that have been owned for a long time. And of course, we have a lot of people who are also struggling to make those payments because the economy is terrible in the United States right now. So we have rising home values plus people struggling and foreclosures on the rise of. So scammers are going, well, there's a lot of houses with a lot of equity that we could go after and those homeowners are in trouble and they can't pay the mortgage. Let's go after that equity. So just as before with the, the foreclosure scams, the scammers are very easily able to identify a homeowner in foreclosure because again, it's public record. And in many cases, these scammers will actually show up at the front door of a home that is in trouble. And they'll say, I'm a housing advocate, I'm an investor, I'm a foreclosure specialist, or I'm a like a housing rescue organizer or something like that. One of the stories that ABC News covered said as soon as 20 minutes after the filings have been made, they show up at people's doors in some communities. I mean, that is just unreal. Yeah, so predatory. 20 minutes within a filing, it's like they're waiting at city hall and just kind of running out the door. I mean, I just, I just. Some of the statistics in this are just really blowing my mind in the worst possible way. So, yeah, the scammer claims they can help save the home and then using a lot of high pressure tactics and language that's very hard to understand because let's be real, when it comes to anything involving housing sales, mortgages, anything like that, the language is not easy to understand even in the best circumstances.

[B]

It's not something we do very often, right?

[A]

No, it's really not. It's like. So they use a lot of that kind of obfuscatory. I'm trying to use a fancy word that I can't pronounce. I was just going to say obfuscatory language.

[B]

Yeah, we'll go with that.

[A]

Sure. Language is hard to understand.

[C]

How they say that didn't mean hard

[A]

words, hard words, big hard words, hard to understand to pressure the homeowner into signing complex documents. Again, do they understand what they're signing? A lot of the times, no. But again, did I understand what I was signing when my lawyer was there sitting next to me at closing? No, I just, I just trusted the guy I was paying, was leading me in the right direction. And so, okay, yeah, yeah, sign here for three hours. I hope I don't get scammed. So. And what ends up happening in this situation is the scammer, through that barrage of paperwork, actually gets the homeowner, often unbeknownst to them, to sell their home below market value, below fair market value, and in many cases even fully transfer ownership of the property to the scammer. So the scammer then owns the title to the home. So essentially the. The homeowner becomes a renter in their own home. That's essentially how it kind of works. So the homeowner thinks that they're getting help and the scammer walks away with the equity in the home. So they've made a whole bundle of cash and in many cases, the actual title to the house. So this one just, again, just awful. And ABC News has a really heartbreaking example of this, of a real world example that this happened to this poor man. A woman named Vanessa Lurie says her father, who was suffering from dementia, was approached at his own home front door after his Arizona house entered foreclosure. And according to his daughter, the scammer convinced him to sign over ownership of the property. And the fan. When the family found out, they tried to fight this in court. And they apparently, they spent years trying to fight it in court. Just, this is just heartbreaking. I'm sorry. The financial loss, including the legal costs for the family, was between a hundred thousand and one hundred fifty thousand dollars.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. And Arizona's attorney general says that the, the company, and these are the scammers again, and its associates are running a large scale equity stripping scheme. And this has affected hundreds of homeowners that they know of. So it's just. And again, like, this gentleman had dementia. So I mean, it's another one of really just unbelievably scummy predatory practices taking people's homes from them. I just, it's just, I can't believe it. Anywho, so what makes this all work is, of course, people are feeling embarrassed about foreclosure. They're feeling the pressure about, you know, possibly losing ownership of their home. And all those fears. And that time pressure, which is real, can often work wonders in the amygdala to override the normal skepticism that a lot of us would have about, hey, this person might be trying to scam us. So a lot of times people feel like they really don't have any options left. You know, I don't want to lose my home. What can I possibly do? I feel like my back is up against the wall. And as we mentioned earlier, in the best of circumstances, this kind of paperwork, even the legitimate stuff, is very complex. And hard to understand. And adding to it, the scammers often pressure people. Don't get your own advocate, don't hire a lawyer. You know, we're an expert, we can help you. You don't need to go through that trouble. I'm telling you that I'm here to help you. So why would you need to contact a lawyer about this stuff?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And like, why would you want the expense of a lawyer? Like, you can circumvent all that and just let me handle it for you? Like, why would, you know, why would you do all that? And then often not until it's too late do the victims realize that they've not only lost money, they've actually lost their homes. So red flags to watch out for are any kind of guarantees that someone can stop a foreclosure, any kind of request for an upfront fee, any pressure to act immediately. Admittedly, foreclosure is a very time sensitive situation, but like, nobody needs to be acting immediately. Any kind of instructions not to talk to a lawyer or your lender, like, you should definitely be talking to those people for sure. Any requests for payment via wire transfer, cashier's check or payment apps, those are not legitimate ways of paying someone for something as big as a mortgage. Especially don't listen to anyone saying that you got to transfer your title or ownership of your property, like slam the brakes right there. Or anyone asking you to, to sell their, your home to them below market value. And always you should, always with anything relating to property. I know it's expensive, but you should definitely contact an attorney or a trusted advisor. Your home's too important to mess with. So yeah, if anything seems suspicious, get legal advice. Not anyone's favorite thing to do, but get legal advice if you are not sure about signing a document. And your state attorney general's office can also be a good place to check with if you're genuinely unsure.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I would imagine. Also this is something for a lot of folks at the county level. There are probably people who can provide you with at least initial guidance or, you know, help set you on the right path.

[A]

Yeah. Or you're a lender. Yeah. I keep forgetting about counties because I live in like the one state that doesn't do that. We technically have counties, but it's not, we don't do county level stuff. It's weird. But yeah. Yes. This is not one of those things where you want to be answering somebody at the door. Just slam the door in their face. Just honestly, just don't, don't Take that at all. But, you know, reach out to your mortgage lender. I mean, I know mortgage lenders really don't like foreclosing on people. At least that's what they say. So, you know, if you've got, if you've got. At least that's what they tell you is they want to avoid that situation. So, you know, if someone says they're trying to help you with it, say, thanks, I'm going to talk to my mortgage lender and then talk to them first.

[B]

Yeah. It reminds me back when I was, when I had my own company, you know, my previous career, and I was talking with a friend of mine who was a commercial banker, and we were just. I was asking him, you know, do you have any advice for a small business, you know, who's still having a startup stage? And he said, yeah. He said, communicate with your banker. He said, your impulse is going to be. He said, there are gonna be times when things are bad. There are gonna be times in your small business, for most small businesses, when you feel like you don't know what to do, things aren't adding up and you're in trouble. He said, your impulse is going to be to clam up and hunker down. He said, that's the opposite of what you should do. He said, call your banker and talk to them. He said, and to your point, Maria, your banker does not want you to go out of business. Right, Right.

[A]

I mean, it's better for them. They make more money from you if you stay in business or if you can keep paying your mortgage. Like, like just think of it in just those concrete terms. They make more money from you if you don't think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they don't want to see you go out of business or foreclose.

[B]

That's it. And chances are they have more flexibility on their end than you think.

[A]

Yeah. So it's worth, it's always worth chatting with them. But my assumption often is if someone's in foreclosure, they've done all that. But I don't know. I don't want to assume that at all. But, you know, yeah, there's, it's, it's a heartbreaking situation, foreclosure. And usually mortgage lenders say they try to work with you again.

[B]

It can.

[A]

Your mileage may vary on that one, but.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, well, we will have a link to that story in the show notes. Tell you what, let's take a quick break here. We will be right back after these messages. All right, we are back and my story this week comes from the folks over at Infosecurity magazine. Let's go through this together here. So imagine that you are ready to set off on your new career as a scammer.

[C]

Oh, I'm in.

[A]

Joe's been waiting for this day for so long.

[B]

Oh, are there backpacks?

[C]

Right.

[A]

He brought his own.

[C]

I'm gonna be able to buy.

[B]

So many of you don't know how to code. You don't have a warehouse full of burner phones. You don't have a team of engineers. Twenty years ago, that would have been a problem, but these days, it's just

[C]

me and my world of enemies.

[B]

So there's a report from researchers at a company called Human Security. They went online into one of the dark web forums, and they bought a phone farm kit to see what was inside. So this is a sort of a prepackaged kit where you can set up your own phone scamming. They said this is less of a criminal mastermind operation and more like assembling IKEA furniture. You buy some hardware.

[A]

Fun.

[B]

So you buy some hardware. Or you can skip the hardware altogether and just rent virtual phones.

[C]

You can do that?

[B]

Yeah. Who do?

[C]

I didn't know that.

[B]

Right? You subscribe to software that lets one person manage hundreds of devices, and then you add the special secret sauce, AI Sriracha.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Okay, that's the part that really changes the game. So instead of writing automated code, you just tell the AI what you want in plain English. You need hundreds of fake accounts. You need bots to keep your romance scam conversations going. The AI can write the scripts, it can create the Personas, and can keep those conversations flowing. The research call this Fun Phone Farm, because it's become a recipe. They're saying that every layer removes another barrier.

[C]

Okay, so I'm going to complain about the name here.

[A]

Fun Phone Farm.

[C]

Right, because they spelled it Fun with an F. Phone with an F. Farm with an F. Yeah. It is far more in line with hacker culture to call it Fun Phone Farm. Spelling fun and farm with pHs.

[A]

You can't argue with you on that one. That's true.

[C]

Like phone freaking.

[A]

Like phone freaking. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so you're just saying they should have gone the other way.

[C]

They should have gone the other way with it.

[B]

Kept the ph of phone and flipped to the ph. Okay, yeah.

[A]

Can argue.

[C]

I know. I just derailed what you're saying.

[B]

I concur. I concur. So they say the management software comes with documentation. It even comes with customer support. And again, AI Removes a lot of the technical expertise and the language skills that the scammers would need. They dug into some of the economics here, and according to their report, for a few thousand dollars a month, you can buy into an underground fraud ecosystem worth tens of billions of dollars. They said romance scams cost victims nearly $930 million last year, and those are FBI figures. So the takeaway here is that cybercrime is starting to look less like hacking and more like subscribing to software. You can basically buy into something like this, and it operates as a service. The infrastructure has become productized, and AI is filling in the gaps. You really don't need the specialists that you used to need, you know, to get these things done. It's practically, if you're a money person and you have no ethics. Right, Right. And you're willing to spend a good bit of your life looking over your shoulder to see if law enforcement's coming at you, the barrier to entry is quite low, or you live in a

[C]

place where you know law enforcement's not coming after you.

[A]

Yeah, Right. So it's scarce. It's scamming as a service.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Yeah. Scass.

[A]

Scass.

[B]

Nice. Nice.

[C]

What's the acronym for that? Is that S C, A?

[A]

S, E, A, A.

[B]

It's gotta be a PH in there somewhere, right? We gotta PH in there.

[A]

I'll workshop it a bit. I'll workshop it. This one.

[B]

Okay. Maybe get your friend to make a T shirt.

[A]

Another T shirt. He's gonna be busy.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, so we will have a link to that story in the show notes. Again, that's from the folks at Infosecurity magazine. Joe, Maria, it is time for our catch of the Day.

[C]

Dave, Our Catch of the Day comes from Scambait. And the title of this post is that two Timing. Barb Johnson.

[A]

I know her well. Yeah.

[B]

Well, I'll start it off here. It says, congratulations, I'm Julie, the Michigan Powerball Power Play winner. So you have been fortuitously picked among our electoral machine on Facebook. Lucky winners. Those getting $100,000 this month. 2025 from my giveaway program going on. Are you ready to claim your winning?

[A]

Wow, that's crazy. I don't remember buying a ticket for the Michigan Lottery, but maybe I'm just lucky.

[B]

Oh, really? Okay. What do you do for a living? And what will you be using the $200,000 for?

[C]

Wait, I thought you said it was $100,000.

[A]

I own a call center in India. We run the Nigerian Prince scam.

[B]

Okay. To claim Your winnings, you will have to contact Agent Barb Johnson, the claiming agent who will help you to claim your winnings prize. Click on this link and message the agent in charge of your winnings package.

[A]

Oh, I love clicking on links. Wait, hang on. Barb Johnson. She works for us. That two timing. I knew she wasn't visiting her uncle. You tell that not to come into work on Monday. She's fired and seen.

[C]

I'm going to put it.

[A]

I'm going to get a complaint email about swearing again.

[C]

Yeah, you got a. In this picture, the scam baiter's phone is at 48%, has a yellow battery.

[B]

48 is in the yellow.

[C]

I don't know. What is this, an iPhone? This looks like an iPhone when you

[A]

go on battery saver mode. So, okay, maybe he's in battery.

[C]

Okay, then if he's in battery saver mode, then 48% is plenty.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

This does. Does it give you any anxiety being 48? You can live with that?

[C]

I can live with that. I can live with 48%, in fact.

[A]

When does the anxiety start kicking in for you?

[C]

Anywhere below 30. Yeah, once you get below 30, you're starting to get a little anxious.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

My chest tightens, decelerates.

[B]

That's called a heart attack. Joe.

[A]

We're learning a lot about your health today, Joe.

[C]

Hey, I went to the doctor. I got tested. Everything's fine.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What did they. You know what? I'm not gonna ask that question because,

[C]

you know, I'll just tell you.

[A]

Yeah. Yes, I do. That's true.

[B]

Trust me on this one, right? I've been at this a lot longer.

[C]

Kind of an oversharer.

[A]

No filter. That's why we love you, Joe.

[B]

All right, well, that is our catch of the day, and of course, we'd love to hear from you. If there's something you'd like us to consider for the show, please email us. It's hackinghumans2k.com. And that is our show, brought to you by N2K CyberWire. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing world of cybersecurity. If you like our show, please share a rating and review in your favorite podcast app. Please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to hackinghumans2k.com this episode is produced by Liz Stokes. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ibin. We're mixed by Elliot Teltzman and Trey Hester. Peter Kilpe is our publisher. I'm Dave Bittner.

[C]

I'm Joe Nutter, Butter Lover Kerrigan.

[A]

And I'm Maria Varmazes.

[B]

Thanks for listening.