Love was the hook.

Summary

Hacking Humans – “Love was the hook.”

Podcast: Hacking Humans (N2K Networks)
Episode: Love was the hook
Date: February 12, 2026
Theme: Deception, influence, and social engineering in cyber crime, with a focus on romance scams in honor of Valentine’s Day.

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Episode Overview

This episode examines the persistence and evolution of romance scams, exploring how cyber criminals exploit emotions for financial gain. The hosts discuss real-world stories of romance-based frauds, the psychology behind them, and the increasing sophistication of scams in the digital era, including the use of AI and social media. The episode also features an expert interview with Simon Horsewell, a senior fraud specialist, offering actionable advice on recognizing and defending against romance and confidence scams.

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Key Segments & Insights

1. Phishing Scams & Realism in Fraud Attempts

[00:14–06:56]

• The hosts read a listener’s email about a suspicious Bank of America “fraud alert” text.
• The message had the hallmarks of a phishing scam—urgent deadlines, clickable links, odd check numbers—but after due diligence, proved to be genuine (albeit badly designed) and required an hour-long hold with the bank's fraud department.
• Insight: Even legitimate institutions send messages that strongly resemble scams, making it difficult for users to discern real from fake.
• Quote:
  • Joe Kerrigan: “This reeks of a scam message.” (03:46)
  • Maria Fernanda: “Who’s gonna do that? That’s crazy.” about waiting on hold for an hour (05:32)
• Discussion of how minor details like slight changes in a URL (e.g., “bank0famerica.com” or “B” as “l” plus “c”) are used in phishing.

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2. Chicken Talk Tangent (Skip for Core Content)

The hosts share updates on backyard chickens—a brief lighthearted detour before the main stories.

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3. Feature Stories: Romance and Confidence Scams

A. The Crown Prince of Dubai Scam

[14:04–22:58] – Presented by Maria Fernanda

• Victim: “Laura,” a Romanian businesswoman contacted on LinkedIn by someone claiming to be the Crown Prince of Dubai interested in humanitarian investments.
• The scam spanned two years, involved thousands of messages and an in-person meeting with an alleged “financial manager.”
• Key twist: Scammers went to the trouble of arranging a real-life meeting and creating fake bank websites and documents.
• Loss: Nearly €3 million stolen; only a small portion (~€100k) recovered.
• Internal schism among scammers: After a dispute about dividing the money, one scammer exposed the “prime” scammer’s real identity to the victim.
• Scammer flaunted his wealth openly on social media, helping authorities track him.
• Quotes:
  • Maria Fernanda: “The chat goes on for two years. Thousands and thousands of messages … it actually does lead to romance at some point.” (15:33+)
  • “One of the scammer partners turned in his buddy.” (19:42)
  • Dave Bittner: “No honor among thieves.” (19:47)

B. The Handyman Serial Romance Scammer

[23:11–35:55] – Presented by Joe Kerrigan

• Story of Heather Rovitt, a 46-year-old Canadian real estate broker.
• Meets “Jace,” a handsome handyman sent by her service, who soon becomes her boyfriend and moves in.
• Red flags: Items go missing, suspicious behavior, evidence of Jace on dating apps using multiple aliases (“Jace Donato”, “Mike”, etc.), lack of stable employment, and evasiveness about his own life.
• Heather eventually uncovers through accessing his email that Jace was simultaneously courting hundreds of women on dating apps.
• Her loss totals around $150,000–$200,000 in cash and valuables.
• Notable discussions: The importance of social support networks and how isolation can make a person a target.
• Quotes:
  • Maria Fernanda: “You in danger, girl.” (25:55)
  • Dave Bittner: “He moved in with her. Makes me wonder ... maybe he sensed that she didn’t have the support network.” (34:58)

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4. Expert Interview: Simon Horsewell on Modern Romance Scams

[38:55–53:16]

• Background: Simon Horsewell, Senior Fraud Specialist at Entrust, with over 20 years of experience.
• Romance scams have existed far before the Internet, but digital life and social media make it easier to scale and target victims.
• Modern Playbook:
  • Scammers use social/dating platforms to establish contact.
  • Swift, over-the-top “love bombing” establishes emotional dependency.
  • Scams can last weeks to years; multiple fraudsters might tag-team a victim (initiator, maintainer, closer).
  • AI and generative technologies allow scammers to write flawlessly, deepfake photos/videos, and convincingly impersonate anyone.
  • Key Hallmarks:
    • Impossibly perfect or attractive contacts reach out unprompted.
    • Intensely affectionate, fast-moving relationship paced by the scammer.
    • Excuses to avoid meeting in person (“overseas job,” “constantly traveling”).
    • A financial crisis eventually arises; money or cryptocurrency is requested.
  • Defense: Preemptive awareness is best. Once emotionally invested, victims often rationalize warnings or interventions.
• Notable Quotes:
  • Simon Horsewell: “They will reach out ... not going to be an ugly person.” (39:59)
  • “The victim is emotionally invested … it is everything to them. They are in love. It is very real to them.” (45:23)
  • “AI allows people who don’t necessarily speak English as a first language to communicate in perfect English ... deepfake face for video calls, voice mimicry.” (47:54)
• Advice for Families:
  • Be alert to sudden intense relationships, requests for secrecy, refusal to meet/appear on video, and any sudden requests for money.
  • Approach with empathy; “breaking the spell” is psychologically difficult for victims.

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5. Catch of the Day: Department of Justice Scam Letter

[55:33–60:55]

• Hosts analyze a sophisticated scam letter purporting to come from the U.S. Department of Justice (DEA), accusing the target of being a possible witness to federal crimes.
• Even the hosts admit it could fool them—very official, with references to statutes and plausible legal threats, but upon review is confirmed as a scam.
• Quotes:
  • Joe Kerrigan: “This seems real. I don’t know if this is fake. This would 100% work on me. Really?” (56:50)
  • Dave Bittner: “Turns out it was actually a scam. Huh. So, wow. Beware.” (58:43)
• Lesson: Even savvy, security-focused individuals are at risk due to the sophistication of some scams.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the impact of real-looking fraud alerts:

• “This reeks of a scam message.” – Joe Kerrigan (03:46)
• “I agree with Dave here that this has all the hallmarks of a scam.” – Joe Kerrigan (06:10)

On the psychology of romance scams:

• Simon Horsewell: “They will find everything you say amusing. You will have no disagreements as long as you’re not talking about not giving money.”
• “You can use generative AI ... to wear the face of the AI-generated person that you've created so that you now appear like them in a video call.”

On family/friend intervention:

• Maria Fernanda: “At this age, like, there’s gotta be more to it ... if it’s just he just shows up out of the blue and now he’s moved in with you.” (34:10)
• Joe Kerrigan: “Maybe he sensed something in her that she didn’t have the support network ... and he said, aha, I got one.” (34:58)

On the depth of victim belief:

• “The victim is emotionally invested and it's not a case of not being able to admit it … it is everything to them. They are in love. It is very real to them.” – Simon Horsewell (45:23)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:14–06:56: Phishing scam discussion, Bank of America fraud text
• 14:04–22:58: Crown Prince of Dubai LinkedIn scam story
• 23:11–35:55: Handyman romance scam case
• 38:55–53:16: Simon Horsewell interview: Modern romance scams and AI
• 55:33–60:55: “Catch of the Day” – DOJ scam letter

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Actionable Takeaways

• Never trust urgent financial messages, even from real banks—verify via official channels.
• Be highly skeptical of romantic contacts who seem too perfect, move too fast, or avoid real-life/video meetings.
• Understand that shame, emotional investment, and manipulative psychology make it hard for victims to recognize scams, even when presented with evidence.
• AI tools are making scams more realistic and harder to detect—stay vigilant.
• Discuss these topics openly with friends and family; awareness is the best defense.

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Episode Tone

Engaging, often playful and self-deprecating, with the hosts mixing humor, empathy, and frank security talk. The discussions are insightful yet accessible, balancing the seriousness of the topic with personal stories and banter.

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For more details, links to articles and the documentary mentioned, see the episode show notes.

Transcript

[Maria Fernanda]

You're listening to the Cyberwire Network, powered by N2K.

[Simon Horsewell]

This is someone who can never meet you in person because the person they presented to you doesn't exist. So look out for the fact that you can't meet this person in real life.

[Dave Bittner]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to N2K CyberWire's Hacking Humans podcast, where each week we look behind the social engineering scams, phishing schemes and criminal exploits that are making headlines and taking a heavy toll on organizations around the world. I'm Dave Bittner and joining me is Joe Kerrigan. Hello, Joe.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Hi, Dave.

[Dave Bittner]

And our N2K colleague and host of the T minus Space Daily podcast, Maria Vermazes. Hello, Maria.

[Maria Fernanda]

Hi, Dave. And hi, Joe. Missed you both.

[Joe Kerrigan]

We miss you too. Yeah.

[Dave Bittner]

Welcome back, welcome back. While you were gallivanting around rocket ships in Florida, we were holding down the fort.

[Maria Fernanda]

Well, it's a tough job, but someone had to do it, so.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I know, with Michelle's help.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah, that's right. Thank you. We've got some good stories to share this week, but first we've got some follow up here. Joe, you wanna do the honors? What do we got?

[Joe Kerrigan]

Sure. This one says, hi, Dave, Joe and Maria, I love your podcast. One of my favorites. I look forward to it each week.

[Dave Bittner]

That's nice. That's very nice. Thank you. That's nice.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I like to think of myself as fairly scam savvy. And this text my wife got me had me convinced it was a phishing text. And it's a text from BofA Securities.

[Maria Fernanda]

No, no, no. Bank of America. Bank of America. Oh, no.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I couldn't resist saying BofA.

[Maria Fernanda]

No, no, no, no, not BofA.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I will enlighten Dave as to the meaning, the mean meaning of BofA after.

[Maria Fernanda]

No, no, I'm pretty sure Dave knows I'm.

[Dave Bittner]

What?

[Maria Fernanda]

Dave, you've got to know it.

[Dave Bittner]

No, I have.

[Maria Fernanda]

No. Really? Oh, man.

[Dave Bittner]

Google BofA.

[Joe Kerrigan]

No, no, don't.

[Maria Fernanda]

No, no, no, don't Google that, Dave. Don't Google it.

[Dave Bittner]

I'll wait till after the show to Google it. Yeah, okay. All right. BofA. Am I making it worse by saying BofA? BofA.

[Joe Kerrigan]

BofA. Yes, much worse, but also much funnier.

[Dave Bittner]

I can't wait to learn more about BofA.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I gotta say it.

[Dave Bittner]

Really looking forward to the end of the show when I can experience BofA. Oh, this is gonna. I'm so happy that everyone's laughing at night's things.

[Maria Fernanda]

I'm like crying over Dave.

[Joe Kerrigan]

When I tell you what this is, you will be like, I wish I.

[Maria Fernanda]

Didn'T know, it's perfect that he doesn't though. It's right.

[Dave Bittner]

No, no, don't ruin it. Save it.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I'll.

[Dave Bittner]

I'll get it after the show figure out and we can enjoy it off air together. In the meanwhile, this message from bank of America.

[Maria Fernanda]

Bank of America. B of A. Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

We need you to view this image of check number and it's got a bunch of zeros and then four ones for which is an odd check number. Right. It's essentially just four ones.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

For $169.40 from the account ending in some numbers. I'm not going to read those out loud to confirm it's accurate because scammers may change the payee's name. Log in to log in online or go to www.bankofamerica.com to validate and it has a link there.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Is the pay payee name correct? Reply yes or no by 5pm tomorrow to opt out of fraud alerts. Reply stop.

[Dave Bittner]

Okay.

[Joe Kerrigan]

This reeks of a scam message.

[Maria Fernanda]

It's certainly weird looking.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Click on this link.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

No, click on the lick. Right?

[Maria Fernanda]

I would not click on the link. No, no.

[Joe Kerrigan]

How many of them?

[Dave Bittner]

No, I'm not gonna. No, I would not.

[Maria Fernanda]

Both of them.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Dave Bittner]

I would. I'm just bathing in my ignorance here. I'm just.

[Joe Kerrigan]

You're gonna be so sort.

[Dave Bittner]

Absolutely ignorant.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I'm going to take away your bliss after the show.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah. All right, good. I'll look forward to that.

[Maria Fernanda]

I'm going to be seated for this one, let me tell you.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Okay, so the check number and the URL were clickable in the original format in the original text. She didn't remember writing a check recently. And when she went to her banking app. Not going to the link, which is good. There was no check listed in the activity window. I loaded a throwaway VM and loaded the link. It goes to what looks like the bank of America login screen. No way am I entering any information there. So good. Good policy. It so looks like a fish. Is what what Dave says. This is from Dave, by the way. I forgot to mention that at the beginning.

[Dave Bittner]

Different Dave.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Different Dave.

[Simon Horsewell]

Not Dave.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah, Dave E. Davey.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah, I told her to call the bank and talk to them after waiting on hold for about an hour. An hour? Really? It turns out this is a real text from bank of America fraud department.

[Dave Bittner]

Huh?

[Joe Kerrigan]

It was a check someone had hung onto for a while before depositing. Why in the holy heck would bank of America have procedures like this? Just thought you might find this interesting. I do find this interesting. I also find it interesting that you call the fraud department and wait on hold for an hour.

[Dave Bittner]

An hour?

[Maria Fernanda]

Who's gonna do that? That's crazy.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dave Bittner]

I don't have an hour.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I have an hour in my day to sit around and wait for someone to get to me on a fraud issue.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah. If I'm freaking out that it's fraud, I don't want to wait an hour. But. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

This, this is something would make me consider changing banks. First off, the text is not. Not great. But the fact that I'm. I would wait on hold for an hour to talk to fraud, the fraud department. Yeah, that would be. That would be enough to set me off.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah.

[Dave Bittner]

I agree with Dave here that this has all the hallmarks of a scam.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Absolutely.

[Dave Bittner]

I mean, there's the artificial time horizon.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Dave Bittner]

Contact us by 5pm tomorrow.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right. Or else.

[Maria Fernanda]

Or else check gets it.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah. I mean, the only thing, when I was originally looking at this, the URL looks legit. Bankofamerica.com Right. There's no red flags in the URL.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah. But I'm always leery of clicking on these things because maybe they're using a different. A different letter, a different Unicode letter that looks like a B or an.

[Dave Bittner]

A or an O.

[Joe Kerrigan]

An O, yeah, yeah, that's.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah. Or if your glasses prescription needs a little update and you just miss it because. Yeah, it's easy. It's bank of America. That of is actually a zero, but right.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Where that B is actually an L and a C crammed really close together.

[Maria Fernanda]

The cheming.

[Dave Bittner]

You know, I recently got a call from a bank out of the blue. I was. See, how do I say this? As listeners know, in the last year my father passed away. We've been settling his estate and in doing so, there was a check that my brother received that was sizable. Right. Not life changing, but sizable.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Dave Bittner]

And. And I am the executor of the estate. So it was a check that I had written and signed and all that kind of stuff. And I was sitting home doing what I do best, minding my own business.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Dave Bittner]

And my phone rings and it's a woman from the bank comes up on my phone as being from. I believe it was like Navy Federal Credit Union, something like that.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Dave Bittner]

Which would be a place that my brother would bank because his wife is a Navy veteran.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Your father was also a Navy veteran, right?

[Dave Bittner]

My father was also a Navy veteran. That's right. And so anyway, she was just calling to check to make sure that I had actually written this check and signed it and that it was all on the up and up. She didn't ask for any specifics. Didn't ask for, you know, just basically just checking, checking in. She seemed very appreciative that I answered my phone. Cause that probably never happens.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Anyway.

[Dave Bittner]

You know, just an interesting little bit of follow and I wonder. It made me wonder what would happen had I not answered the phone. Would it just meant that they hold it for another week?

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah, I don't know. It's a good question.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah, I don't know. So anyway. All right, what else do we have here, Joe? Any other follow up?

[Joe Kerrigan]

I got some chicken updates, Dave. Oh, I now have more than one hen laying. I know that I have at least two different hens laying because the eggs are different colors. And I think I may have as many as three hens laying eggs on slower schedules than normal. But it could just be two with one just getting into a rhythm. I don't know, but I have at least two.

[Dave Bittner]

Is this a thing where like once one chicken starts laying, do the others get the message and say, get jealous? Yeah, yeah, they get jealous. Or is there some, you know, something in the air or the water where they. It just now it snowballs and they all start laying?

[Joe Kerrigan]

I think it just has to do with the fact that they're all about the same age within like a day of each other. Yeah, that's much more likely.

[Dave Bittner]

That makes sense. That makes sense.

[Maria Fernanda]

Well, that's cool. I also have a chicken update. Oh, I do not have chickens. I have a. I put a link in the, in the script that I wanted to get your reaction to. And the headline says, let's stop shipping baby chickens in the mail.

[Joe Kerrigan]

What is this about? I mean, I guess they're saying we should stop sending baby chickens in the mail.

[Dave Bittner]

I mean, nothing gets by you, Joe.

[Joe Kerrigan]

You're right. Is that it?

[Maria Fernanda]

Yes, because USPS can't guarantee 48 hour delivery anymore for the chickens chicks. So.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Okay. Yeah, well, if that's the case, then yeah, absolutely. You should stop sending them in the mail. When chickens hatch, they have enough food and water, they can go three days. They don't need to eat or drink for three days. Oh, but you know it. In the time between hatching, you can't just pick them up and put them in a box. But like within a day you can pick them up, put them in a box, and if you can get them anywhere, within one day or two days, they'll be fine. Yeah, and, but if, if not, if it's going to take more than 48 hours. Yeah. You're going to get a dead box. A box of dead chicks.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah. Apparently nobody wants that. This, this article is about how people are basically receiving box of deck boxes of dead chicks.

[Joe Kerrigan]

It's a heart, it's a tongue twister.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Very sad tongue.

[Maria Fernanda]

Chicks that are spending like five days in transit.

[Joe Kerrigan]

No, that, no, that's terrible. You can't do that.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah.

[Dave Bittner]

Huh.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah. So I just wanted to, I just wanted to share that. I was like, I'm curious what you think. So cool.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah, that's, that's maybe a different carrier. I don't know. If you can get a carrier that can guarantee that you'll get them in, in two days, then yes, go ahead and do that. But if it's going to. If, you know, USPS says we can't guarantee this anymore, then you just go.

[Dave Bittner]

To Harbor Freight and get some chickens. Don't they occasionally carry chickens?

[Joe Kerrigan]

Tractor supply has them.

[Dave Bittner]

Tractor supply.

[Maria Fernanda]

That's what I say. If you live anywhere somewhat suburban, a lot of places have chicks that pretty easily just walk in. Usually find them.

[Dave Bittner]

Okay.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah, usually in the spring.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah. But don't get them for Easter because that's not a good idea.

[Joe Kerrigan]

No, I've heard that people do that. That's just terrible because you can. No, don't do that. If you're going to raise the chicken to be a chicken, remember these are flock animals. They need multiple. You can't. In fact, when I, when I bought the ones attractive supply, they said, we will not sell you less than three chicks.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah, right. That's right.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Because you need, you need, you know, it's like any herd animal or flock animal can't live alone. They need to have other, like sheep. You can't buy just one sheep and expect that sheep to be okay.

[Dave Bittner]

Right.

[Joe Kerrigan]

You need like two or three sheep at least.

[Dave Bittner]

Huh? Okay. You know, I saw a video last week of a, of a. I believe it was a, it was a hen. It was a mother hen defending her brood from a hawk. And I mean, man, don't mess with a mother hen.

[Joe Kerrigan]

No.

[Dave Bittner]

This hawk didn't know what hit him.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah. I've seen roosters, videos of roosters killing hawks.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

You know, like having them pinned down and like, it's like war, war footage, you know? Yeah, it's like the, the hawk's last moment of life and the rooster has his claws up and has, you know, one set of claws pinning the root, the hawk down and the other set of Claws about to just end this hawk.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah. And this hawk.

[Simon Horsewell]

Right.

[Dave Bittner]

And finish him.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah. All right, tell you what, let's get some stories here.

[Joe Kerrigan]

That's enough chicken talk.

[Dave Bittner]

It's enough chicken talk. But before we do, thanks to everyone who sends us in. Follow up. We do appreciate it. And thanks to Dave E. For sending in your story. Interesting stuff. And if you'd like to send us something, it's hackinghumans2k.com. Every attacker counts on one thing. Environments that Trust too much. ThreatLocker closes that gap with default deny at execution. Unknown software blocked. Trusted apps contained with ring fencing configurations verified with Threat Locker DAC so you stay secure and compliant. ThreatLocker delivers the visibility and control CISOs need without adding operational pain, making zero trust real for teams of any size. Stop ransomware at its earliest point. Book a [e-mail] N2K. All right, Maria, you are up first this week. What do you got for us?

[Maria Fernanda]

Well, Dave, in this season of love, I figured I'd go for a throwback. When is the last time either of you have thought about Nigerian princes?

[Dave Bittner]

Oh, it's been a while.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah, it has been a while. It has. Even just that phrase, a Nigerian prince. Oh, it's been a little bit. So why don't we dust that part of our brains off a little bit for this story? So I should mention that this is all allegation. No one has been formally charged in this story yet. So innocent until proven guilty, I suppose. But this one comes to us by way of the Organized Crime and Corruption reporting project and ghanaweb.com there's a little mini documentary that just got published about this specific situation just as of time of this recording. I was kind of fascinated about it. It was a romance scam and a humanitarian scam all in one. So to set up the story, unfortunately, our victim is a. You know, her name is Laura, or that's the name she's going by for the story. She is a Romanian businesswoman and she got some outreach on LinkedIn like a lot of us are. She's spending a lot of her time on LinkedIn and there was like, this hot lead on LinkedIn and it seemed totally up her alley. And, uh, it's someone looking to invest millions of Euros in humanitarian causes in her native Romania. And if this wasn't just anyone, this was the Crown Prince of Dubai on LinkedIn.

[Dave Bittner]

Wow.

[Maria Fernanda]

Reaching out to Laura specifically.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah.

[Maria Fernanda]

So, yes, not a Nigerian prince, but an Emirati prince. Well, put a. Put a pin in that one, actually. But yeah. So obviously we know this is not the real deal, just. Just in case, spoiler alert on that one. But the chat between Laura and the so called Crown Prince of Dubai goes on for two years. Thousands and thousands of messages go on between the two of them. And it actually does lead to romance at some point. So it blossoms. How sweet. And slowly, over the course of those two years, Laura is losing hundreds of thousands of euros, of course, because I guess the Crown Prince of Dubai needs money.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right? Right.

[Maria Fernanda]

Anyway, this story actually has, like this two really interesting twists. That is really what caught me here. The first one was there actually was a request to meet up in person in London with the Crown Prince of Dubai's financial manager. And there was a real person that Laura met with. There was a real meeting. And at this meeting, there was paperwork and banking websites shown to Laura where, you know, large deposits have been shown, and then that she was also assured that more deposits need to be made. And, you know, of course, because we're talking about a lot of money crossing international borders. There are fees, so she was shown the fee charts, all that kind of thing. And to be fair, banking across international borders is confusing, and I sympathize. So, you know, it seems all on the up and up, especially since Laura flew to London and met someone in person who seemed very legitimate that, you know, knew exactly what she'd been talking to the Crown Prince of Dubai about. And in all, Laura sent nearly 3 million euros bit by bit to someone over the course of time that she starts to suspect might actually be a scammer. Yeah. So she starts to have the realization that maybe this is fake. And it's a very slow wave of realization, especially as she starts getting hit with more fees. And she's messaging her contact through the Crown Prince of Dubai, saying things like, I hope when I pay these fees, I will get access to some of the funds that I have sent, because I'm starting to suspect nothing's happening to this money. Of course. And so she's sinking more and more money into this scam because the bank that she was shown at, that in person meetup was fake. The website was fake, the fees, all fake. All of it going into the pocket of the scammer. You want to guess who it was that she met with in person in London?

[Dave Bittner]

Was it the guy who was pretending to be the prince?

[Maria Fernanda]

Indeed, one of them.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Oh, this is a team of people.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah, it was one of them. So here's my favorite little twist. There were apparently three people involved on the scam side. Of things. All, yes. Based in Nigeria. That's how the Nigerian prince tie in happens here. What do you think happens when you put 3 million euros or so in the hands of three scammers? What do you think might happen there?

[Joe Kerrigan]

They buy a lot of cool stuff, like flashy cars.

[Maria Fernanda]

This is true.

[Dave Bittner]

They retire and think better of what they do.

[Maria Fernanda]

No, no, no.

[Joe Kerrigan]

They keep going.

[Maria Fernanda]

I think they are nice and they share the profits evenly.

[Dave Bittner]

Oh, sure, sure.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yes, sure. So as Laura is starting to slowly figure out that maybe this is a giant scam and she's trying to get her money back and trying to do refunds or some. Just trying everything she can, the other scammers in this team of three are speaking up against the one that met up with her in person going, don't give him any more money. Give it to me and I'll help you. Because that guy's terrible. That's not actually going anywhere, but I'll help you. So, like, quit giving him your money. I'll, you know, like, I, I'm, I'm actually the one you want to help you. And over the course of time, Lara goes well. Okay, so what is the name of the person I've actually been talking to if he's not actually the financial advisor for the Crown Prince of Dubai and one of the scammers gives the actual government name of the prime scammer here, the person that Laura met with and happens to have a photo of. So one of the scammer partners turned in his buddy. Yeah.

[Dave Bittner]

No honor among thieves.

[Maria Fernanda]

Truly, Truly. So this, this the head scammer has been outed. And I guess at this point is when Laura reaches out to the occrp, the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project. Because then with that information and the guy's photo, they start looking into this. And as Joe, as, as you kind of predicted, this guy's not hiding whatsoever having his legitimate name. He's all over Instagram, he's all over social media. He is real thrilled for everyone to see his new wealth. His multiple houses in Nigeria, his fancy cars, his luxury watches, Louis Vuitton, whatever, the luggage. I guess he's flying first class to London from Nigeria. Why is he flying to London? And my scam more people. Maybe his wife's also posting a lot. Oh, thanks be to God for all this money that we're getting that's letting us buy all this wonderful stuff. Not going to say how we're getting this money, but isn't it super, super great? So, yeah, he's not the dude is not hiding whatsoever. He's just thrilled to have all this money. So right now, the UK police are involved here as our Nigerian authorities. So this is all ongoing. It's all alleged until someone is formally, formally charged. I am very much going to keep an eye on this case because I think it's. It's fun and it's just a drop in the bucket, I'm sure. But for Laura's case, she's only gotten back around €100,000 of her nearly 3 million that she has lost. So I don't know if she's going to get any more money back. It's. That's a cry and shame, because that is a lot of money. But I find it really amazing that the key to this story was that the other scammers turned the head scammer in.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

That'S pretty funny.

[Dave Bittner]

That's a good wrinkle playing one off of the other.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, 3 million euros is a lot of money. So I can see why people would start getting really greedy, you know, over.

[Dave Bittner]

On the Only Malware in the Building podcast that I do, one of my co hosts, Keith Milarsky, is a former FBI agent and he worked a lot of these scam cases with folks overseas, money laundering and all that sort of stuff. And he always talks about how a lot of the information they would get was from the crooks wives bragging online about their wealth.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yep.

[Dave Bittner]

That's how they would know where they were. They would if. You know, if they. Because a lot of times they'd get them for traveling to a country that had an extradition agreement with the US So they'd vacation in the south of France. And by watching the wife's social media, they would know that they're there. She's posting pictures of herself and her spouse and living high off the hog. And that's how they get them. They're the wife.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah. I wonder how often the wife actually knows where that money's come from. I'm sure many of them are not.

[Dave Bittner]

Ignorant, but I'm wondering, maybe willfully ignorant.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah.

[Dave Bittner]

What's her name? Carmela Soprano.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah. Will for ignorance is a great way of putting it.

[Dave Bittner]

Right.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah. As long as the checks keep clearing, I'm not gonna ask too many questions. Right?

[Dave Bittner]

That's right. That's right.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah.

[Dave Bittner]

All right, interesting. Well, we will have a link to that story in the show notes. Joe, you're up next. What do you got for us?

[Joe Kerrigan]

Well, I am also keeping in line with the Valentine's Day theme, and I have a Story about a woman named Heather Rovitt. I hope I'm pronouncing that name right. She's 46 years old and a real estate broker at the time of the scamming. And there is much more to this story than we can go into because this is an in depth story. And I read one article where Heather was like, I don't care about any shame that I feel about this. I'm going public with this, which I think is great.

[Maria Fernanda]

Scorched earth. Good for you, Heather.

[Joe Kerrigan]

She's not just going public, but there's also an Amazon documentary that she's done that she's been part of here. So there's links to that in the article. So if you go to the show note, you can find. Go to the show notes, click on the article, the link to the Amazon prime video documentary, two parts. I haven't watched it yet, but I think I'm gonna try to watch it. So anyway, one day Heather needs some cabinets fixed. So she calls her handyman service, thinking they're gonna send over the same guy they sent last time. But when she opens the door, she finds this charming man in his 40s. And he has salt and pepper hair and a really nice smile.

[Maria Fernanda]

He's kind of rugged looking.

[Simon Horsewell]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

If you look at the picture, this is.

[Maria Fernanda]

I look at this dreamboat eyes. I'm not gonna lie. That guy, I can see. I can see it.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

This is not a scam I could ever hope to pull off.

[Maria Fernanda]

You're at least self aware, Joe. Good for you.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yep. I'm like, okay, where's the cabin you need fixed over there.

[Maria Fernanda]

Please leave, sir.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Fix it and get out.

[Dave Bittner]

Please leave. Do you not own a belt, sir?

[Joe Kerrigan]

I do. It just doesn't work. I have to wear. Never mind. I have a nice pair of suspenders for when I'm doing work around the house. Hooks on them.

[Maria Fernanda]

Nothing more rugged than suspenders, Joe.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Especially the ones that hook to a belt. Yeah, that's just the lowest form way to keep your pants up, but it's all that works. So the guy introduces himself. His name is Jace Peretti. Right, That's Jace. Right, That's a fake name. His real name is actually Jason Porter. And they chat. It's nice. And then Heather says, after he leaves, Heather says, hey, I need a towel rack fixed. So she calls Jace back, and this time she says, why don't we go do lunch? Of course, Jace says, okay. And then that leads to some texting and eventually a proper date. And within a few months of dating, Jace Goes and meets Heather's parents. So this is now looking really official.

[Maria Fernanda]

You in danger, girl.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right. But she doesn't know that. I mean, oh my God. From our perspective, it's obvious.

[Maria Fernanda]

Have any girlfriends?

[Joe Kerrigan]

She does and one of them tries to help her out later.

[Maria Fernanda]

Okay. I was like, ladies, what are we doing here? Your friend does something like that, you take her aside immediately. Okay. Anyway, sorry.

[Joe Kerrigan]

After that, a few months later, Jace gets a key to her condo and he winds up spending the majority of his time there. And Heather says, well, he was a night owl. And he said he had picked up a new software job where he was working on his computer late into the night. So Heather went to bed before him.

[Maria Fernanda]

Oh no, he's a hobosexual.

[Joe Kerrigan]

A what?

[Maria Fernanda]

Hobosexual.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Hobosexual. What's a hobo?

[Maria Fernanda]

Basically a guy who's just gonna. Just mooch off you.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Oh, okay, okay.

[Maria Fernanda]

Sorry. I learned that one on Reddit the other day. I'm like, that's such a great. That's a great term for it.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yes, that's a good one.

[Dave Bittner]

It's good.

[Joe Kerrigan]

In the music industry we call them guitar players.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah. Drummer jokes. Or you know, how do you. How do you know a drummer's homeless? He doesn't have a girlfriend.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right. That's the same one with guitar.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Well, I said, what do you call a person who hangs out with musicians? A drum drummer. Yeah, but my drummer would say, what do you call a guy that can't play guitar? It's a bass player. Yeah, that's what I was.

[Dave Bittner]

All right.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Anyway, after a while, things start going missing, right? Like just think random things around the house. Like an iPhone that Jace bought for. For Heather. And Jason blames the building concierge and nearly gets her fired. Then a friend's Rolex vanished on a cottage weekend. I don't know. This is written in the sun, which is UK paper, so I don't know what cottage weekend means, but I guess it's just a getaway where you go to an Airbnb or something.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Her parents mysteriously lost $750 in cash. Or it says pounds here. But it's Canadian dollars probably. I don't know what that is in Canadian dollars. A Tiffany necklace, a gold and diamond wedding band and a diamond engagement ring. Those things just go missing from her parents house on two occasions. Jace also backed out last minute of two different trips with two different excuses. One was, oh, I don't have my passport anymore, it's expired. I can't go to the Dominican Republic. And one was a trip actually planned. And he bought tickets. The tickets were of course, fake, but he said right before the time, it was time to go to Rome. This is going to Italy. Oh, I got. I've got to go to court for a custody thing with my son, with my girlfriend that has my son, and eventually a friend. This is where the friend comes in. She tells Heather, hey, I found Jason Bumble. Which is a dating app, I guess. But Jace convinces Heather that this is all a bunch of BS because he of course, lies his way out of it. So at this point, they've been dating for a long time. And then in the summer of 2021, it wasn't so much the money that Heather says bothered her, but he became. She became more concerned with his sudden shift in demeanor. Like he didn't want to go to any of the events that she was hosting. And then one Memorial Day or Labor Day weekend, Jace disappears. And Heather gets access to his email account. And when she gets into the email account, she finds out that Jace is all over all kinds of dating apps. EHarmony, Match, plenty of Fish and Bumble. And she says that he is talking with hundreds of women. Not one or two hundreds.

[Maria Fernanda]

How does he have time for that?

[Joe Kerrigan]

Well, that's what he does at night. He's not developing software, he's scanning.

[Maria Fernanda]

That's a lot of work.

[Joe Kerrigan]

It is.

[Maria Fernanda]

Okay.

[Joe Kerrigan]

And of course, this is one of my favorite parts of the story. Jace is using names like Jace, Don Donato. Don Donato. I would look at that as like, Donato. Like I'm Donato.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah, yeah. You've heard of the tornado, right? This is the Don NATO.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I'm the Don NATO. Brace yourself.

[Dave Bittner]

Here I come.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Watch out. And of course, the ever present Mike.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I don't know how many years in.

[Dave Bittner]

Are we at this point?

[Joe Kerrigan]

It's like three years into this. So she. She finds us off, she breaks it off with him. The police say there's nothing illegal about. About talking to women online. Sorry, if you don't feel safe, you should leave. So she does leave. She moves back to her parents house. Then she gets a call from. Because she had since moved from the first apartment. And now they're in another. Another house. And the landlord is like, hey, Jace isn't paying his rent. I'm going to evict him. And she's like, that's fine with me. So then she goes in there and she finds all kinds of documentation. Like she finds bills of sale for the. The stuff that was missing from her Parents, house. And then all told, it looks like she lost around 150,000 pounds, which is probably close to $200,000 in American money and probably even more than that in Canadian money. But it's. I can't say I would be happy with losing $150,000. It would affect me greatly. So I don't want to say this is not. This is not as bad as we hear. Like, Maria's story had someone losing $3 million.

[Dave Bittner]

Joe, I've seen you misplace your glasses.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yes.

[Dave Bittner]

And go apoplectic.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Should have seen me yesterday. I was working on my car and I couldn't find the tire gauge. I was like, I just had it.

[Dave Bittner]

Right. Is it in your hand?

[Joe Kerrigan]

It was in my pocket.

[Dave Bittner]

Okay.

[Simon Horsewell]

There you go.

[Maria Fernanda]

Not in your backpack?

[Joe Kerrigan]

No. It's a tool. It's got a specific place.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah. I mean, it's sad and I guess all too common. I also feel really bad for her parents because the violation of the parents trust, you know, this ne' er do well boyfriend who comes in and stuff starts disappearing.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah. There's a lot more to this story. I mean, I would encourage listeners to go and read the story. There's much more to it than I can cover here, but it's a good story, and I really want to watch this documentary now.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah, same here. I'm going to have to find a way to get to it because I don't have Amazon prime anymore.

[Dave Bittner]

I'm curious.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yo, ho ho, Maria.

[Joe Kerrigan]

You have friends that have Amazon Prime?

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. Me and Bezos, we're buddies.

[Dave Bittner]

So, Maria, at the outset of this, you were. You were lamenting that this woman's girlfriends weren't having a more active part in her defense here. Can you flesh that out for us?

[Simon Horsewell]

I.

[Maria Fernanda]

Some of that was out of. I'm just thinking back to my.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I.

[Dave Bittner]

This.

[Maria Fernanda]

Okay, I'm gonna organize my thoughts on this one. This was not terribly uncommon for people I knew in our 20s. However, she's. She's 46.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah.

[Maria Fernanda]

I don't know. In my 20s, when I had friends that had situations like this where it wasn't necessarily a scammer, but things moved way too fast. There was an element of maybe that's normal. I don't really know. By 46, you definitely have enough life experience. So I don't know. I think that's a girlfriend's need to sit down with you and go, this is moving a little fast. Honey. Are you sure about this? But of course, if she goes, yeah, it's great. He's fine. I promise you. It's great, you know?

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah. It didn't move like romance scam level fast.

[Simon Horsewell]

It moved.

[Maria Fernanda]

It's still pretty fast.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah. I mean, three months, three or four months season. He's living with her. Yeah, that's pretty fast.

[Maria Fernanda]

With a key to her condo. I don't know. I mean, I'm not saying, like that's unheard of, but it's just that it's a little fast to me. To me. So I don't know. I don't know. That would raise some eyebrows for me. Are you sure? You see, all right, he's on the up and up. He's got a job. You sure about that, right?

[Simon Horsewell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Bittner]

Especially the kind of. I mean, he moved.

[Maria Fernanda]

How'd you meet this guy? He showed up at your house.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah. He's staying with you. Have you ever been to his house?

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

And where does he live?

[Dave Bittner]

Right.

[Maria Fernanda]

Have you met his friends? Like, is he legit? Yeah, there's all sorts of. Yeah, especially at this age. Like, there's gotta be, there's gotta be more to it. And if it's just he just shows up out of the blue and now he's moved in with you and you haven't met anyone on his side of things and you haven't seen him actually go to a job. I just don't know. Too many red flags.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I mean, well, she did see him go to a job. He fixed the cabinets in her house.

[Maria Fernanda]

Well, then I'm a handyman too, Right. My red flag would have been find me on TaskRabbit. It's jeez.

[Joe Kerrigan]

My red flag would have been when he says, oh, I got a software job. I'm like a software job for a handyman.

[Maria Fernanda]

I mean, have you just open up notepad and you know, I'm a software engineer.

[Dave Bittner]

I also wonder, could he be. If you think about him being a predator, which you know, seems clearly allegedly. But if he's involved with hundreds of women, he chose to live with her. Which makes me wonder, like, what was it about her? We talk about, why didn't her girlfriends help her? Maybe he sensed in something in her that she didn't have the support network that was gonna blood in the water. Yeah. And he said, aha, I got one. And this is the one I'm gonna live with.

[Maria Fernanda]

Right. I'm just imagining in my weekly catch ups with my friends, if one of them told me, hey, this guy who showed up at my house fixing my cabinets 3 months later is now sleeping on my couch. He has moved in with me, I'd be going, this is not a tap the brake situation. This is a red alert.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right. So.

[Maria Fernanda]

What is going on there? So, yeah, you're right. She probably was isolated. So that, that makes her a perfect victim, sadly, yeah.

[Dave Bittner]

All right, we will have a link to this story in the show notes, and once again, we would love to hear from you. If there's something you'd like us to consider for the show, you can email [e-mail] we're going to take a quick break. We will be right back after this message from our show. Special Sponsor. Most environments trust far more than they should, and attackers know it. ThreatLocker solves that by enforcing default deny at the point of execution. With Threat Locker allow listing, you stop unknown executables cold. With ring fencing, you control how trusted applications behave. And with Threat Locker DAC defense against configurations, you get real assurance that your environment is free of misconfigurations and clear visibility into whether you meet compliance standards. ThreatLocker is the simplest way to enforce zero trust principles without the operational pain. It's powerful protection that gives CISOs real visibility, real control, and real peace of mind. ThreatLocker makes zero trust attainable even for small security teams. See why thousands of organizations choose ThreatLocker to minimize alert fatigue, stop ransomware at the source, and regain control over their environments. Schedule your [e-mail] N2K today. And we are back. I have a special treat for us here this week rather than a story. Actually have an interview Again with our Valentine's Day timing here, we thought it would be nice to talk to Simon Horsewell, who is a senior fraud specialist at a company called Entrust. He has more than 20 years of experience in fraud investigations and document examination. He's supported law enforcement with their work. But lately he's been tracking this surge in romance and confidence scams. So I thought it'd be a perfect person to talk to. Here's my conversation with Simon Horsewell. So today we are talking about romance scams. Being that it is right around Valentine's Day, I would love to start off with some high level stuff here. My understanding is that romance scams go way before we actually had an Internet. This is as long as people have been in love, there have been people trying to scam each other and use it as a way of doing that. Is that an accurate perception?

[Simon Horsewell]

Yeah, I think that's fair. As long as people have had the ability to take advantage of one another, then unfortunately they have.

[Dave Bittner]

So what Are we seeing here today when it comes to romance scams? What is the current, let's call it state of the art.

[Simon Horsewell]

Yeah. So what we're seeing now, people reaching out to. Well, we see fraudsters reaching out to people via social media platforms. So this could be using dating apps with a view to getting them off the dating apps and into private messaging service. Or it could be on Instagram or Facebook or one of those other social media platforms that are a lot broader and that can make the trouble, that can make the problem a bit harder to spot because those platforms aren't necessarily geared up to monitor certain patterns of behavior.

[Dave Bittner]

Can you walk us through the playbook? I mean, how does something like this begin and what happens as they progress?

[Simon Horsewell]

So initially someone will reach out to you. They're not going to be an ugly person. Right. This is going to be someone who is probably like a 10, a nine somewhere sort of unbelievable where you're like, wow.

[Dave Bittner]

And someone way out of my league.

[Simon Horsewell]

Right. We're not, nor you personally, but like us as a people.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Simon Horsewell]

These are going to be people that are objectively good looking. Yeah. They will reach out to you out of the blue and they'll say, hey, look, I just stopping by, I saw you like this or I, I saw you were into this, or I just saw your profile and I thought, I just wanted to say hello because you look friendly.

[Dave Bittner]

Right.

[Simon Horsewell]

Or you look beautiful. But what will then progress from there is a really intense period of the relationship. So normal relationships progress, you know, various different speeds. But one of the hallmarks of this particular trend, this scam, is that it will go straight up to 100 and it won't lay off the gas. It will be very intense. You will have the most attention attentive person ever. They will find everything you say amusing. You will have no disagreements as long as you're not talking about not giving money, let's put it that way. Everything's going to be the best thing they've ever heard or they're going to think that you are the only thing that they think of all day long. They will not miss a call, they will not miss a message. And they will. Yeah, we see this technique called love bombing. For those of you who aren't familiar with it, love bombing is when you, you, you basically just spam someone with affection. You're constantly telling them how important they are to you, how much you miss them, how you dream of being together. You're sending poems, you're sending stories, you're sending songs. Just, just really intense but over a very short period of time. And this is all to progress and accelerate the relationship to the point where the victim is emotionally invested, and then it's very, very difficult for them to pull away.

[Dave Bittner]

How much time is there typically between this. This. This period of time where they're building the relationship, and then when the ask comes for something for money, for, you know, something out of the ordinary?

[Simon Horsewell]

Well, it can vary. It really can vary. In some cases, it can be sort of a couple of weeks. But in other cases, we've known this to go on for a few years. But with the use of AI now, it's relatively simple. We live these lives online, and if you've never met someone in person, it can be very easy to fall into this trap. Some victims have reported the fact that the tone changes when they're talking to this person over a period of years. That. That's generally not the case. Right. If you're talking to a genuine person, they tend to be the same person. But this is, you know, considered to be fraudsters sharing these victims with other people. Or if you like, if you think of it in terms of the business, I've got someone who goes out and does the research and initiates the contact, and then they pull them in. Then I give them to somebody else to keep them warm. And then later on down the line, when it's required, I have my closer. So that kind of pattern, this is why it can feel like sometimes you're talking to a different person or the. The tone changes. Likelihood is you may have been sold on your. Your profile, as it were, may have been sold on to somebody else to go to the next stage. So it can be any period of time, but it does have some hallmarks to it that you can look out for that will let you know that you're trapped in this situation.

[Dave Bittner]

What sorts of things should people be on the lookout for?

[Simon Horsewell]

Well, as I say, this intense period right at the beginning, this is someone who can never meet you in person because the person they presented to you doesn't exist. So look out for the fact that you can't meet this person in real life. Now, it could be that from the beginning, the scenario they've given you is that they work overseas, that they can't be with you in person, otherwise they would. Or they work all the time, or they're constantly traveling. Some excuse that is baked into the scenario from the beginning, which means that seeing them in person is going to be very difficult. And we should just put that to the back burner for the time being. Now most of the time, you know, you can have a long distance relationship and it can work, but you're on the assumption that you're eventually going to meet. And if the person on the other end is never going to do that and has never got that intention, then you're working under false pretenses.

[Dave Bittner]

Now my understanding here is that when someone gets drawn into something like this, it's very hard for them to admit that they've been taken. First of all, does that match your research? And I guess the second question is if you suspect your loved one is involved with something like this, what's the best way to try to break the spel sell?

[Simon Horsewell]

Yeah, it's very difficult. It's very difficult because these are social manipulation. That's how these scams work. They manipulate the individual, the target. Quite often we're seeing people that are, well, they're being targeted based on things that they put out on social media. So fraudsters now can find out an awful lot about you, build a profile and then they kind of know what buttons are going to work through tried and tested means. So it can be very difficult once someone's caught in this, or as the, the phrase that I'm hearing, quite a lot of, the phrase that we're using, quite a lot is, is breaking the spell. You have banks that are trying to warn people about these payments saying like, you know, we, we have seen this before, this is going to be a scam. And again, the fraudsters have got that as part of their script. So they'll be saying like, don't worry, the bank is going to tell you this, but I just need you to put this money in this location or I need you to buy this amount of crypto by this time because of the intensity of the relationship, the attentiveness that they're giving the victim, the fact that they are making it for the victim feel incredibly real and the dream relationship. The victim is emotionally invested and it's not a case of not, not being able to admit it. It's a ca. Yeah, it's, they're so emotionally invested that they, they, they can't get away from this. It is everything to them. They, they are in love. It is very real for them. So the fact that other people are coming along and waving bits of evidence or, you know, trying to pull them away from it, the fraudsters know what they're doing when they're creating this scenario. It's very difficult for loved ones to pull them away. The fraudsters know what the regular Objections are going to be and almost counter attack them before they happen. So trying to isolate that person more and more from their support network, from their family, from their loved ones, from their friends, discrediting the warning signs that banks will put up. And a bank can't stop you spending your money, they're not allowed to do that, but it's in their interest to warn you.

[Dave Bittner]

Several times you mentioned AI. What role does that have in the scams these days? How much has it accelerated or made it easier for these folks to do the things they're up to?

[Simon Horsewell]

Yeah, so this has been a problem since we have started living more of our lives online. And that means that we are now used to having conversations with people just through text, for example. And whereas before, with some of these scams, the fraudster would have to take a photograph from somewhere else on the Internet, which still happens, but they would have to take a photograph, which would mean that you could potentially take all the images that your romance has, you know, your romantic partner has sent you, and you can put them on a search engine to see if they see if and where they've popped up elsewhere before, which may give you some indicators that the relationship is not genuine. It used to be that the fraudster would have to write the pieces themselves, they would have to write the messages, which means that you could use things like spelling and grammar, syntax, you could use all of these as indicators. But now we have generative AI, we have LLMs. So these will allow people who don't necessarily speak, let's say, English as a first language, it will allow them to communicate in perfect English, even set a tone. The grammar will be great, the syntax will be great, and you can say, I want to make this playful. So it will have a playful tone to it, it will use playful type words. You can converse quite convincingly without necessarily having the ability to do that yourself, which is what the fraudsters do. And now you've got this generative AI allowing people to create someone from scratch. So an image of someone or a video of someone, you can use generative AI, so you can use deep fake, for example, to wear the face of somebody else. So if you have to do a video call, you can wear the face of the AI generated person that you've created so that you now appear like them in a video call. You can use generative AI to mimic a voice so that you can have a more realistic sounding tone that maybe matches the image of the person that you're portraying. So it's made it that much more Realistic and harder to spot because gradually it's removing some of the red flags or the characteristics that we would have used potentially to pick this up. It's making the appearance of it that much more realistic.

[Dave Bittner]

So what are your recommendations then? I mean, are there consistent ways to successfully inoculate your loved ones against this sort of thing ahead of time?

[Simon Horsewell]

What I would say with all of this, it's like any scam that's ever been perpetrated. It's all about making people aware before it happens. Once someone is ensnared, as we've. As we've mentioned, it's very difficult in some cases to convince them otherwise. It depends how invested they are, how far down the track they are. But even sometimes, people are presented with the full facts and all of the evidence and they're still not convinced. So really, the best form of defense is awareness, making sure that people are savvy about this potential pitfall as early as possible so that they can avoid falling into this trap. So there are a few things to look out for, as I say, the acceleration of the relationship, the fact it becomes so emotional and so intense so quick. There's always going to be whether someone is prepared to have a video call or not, there's going to be an excuse why they can't meet you in person. And then at some stage, and this is the key thing to look out for, there is going to be some form of crisis or event that requires the victim to hand over money or help out in some way financially. And that's the big thing. And it could be. We've seen kind of really protracted ones where one victim of a romance scam is actually the money mule for the other victims of the same romance scam. So it'll be send money to this address. And the person at that address is also involved in the romance scam. They are also a victim, but they think they're helping out. I'm sending, you know, my. My future husband has asked me if I can forward money for that I received from this address and forward it to that address because it helps out his business, which is building for our future. So it's that request in there that involves money. Whether it's you handing over money, whether it's you buying crypto, whether it's you investing in something as well. That's another kind of facet of this, is getting people to invest in fake scams or Bitcoin or buying gift cards. These are the kind of things to look out for. And you'll find that around that time, the intensity of the emotions kind of drops off and a lot of the messages are just checking in and asking where the money is or have you sent this yet, or have you purchased that yet?

[Dave Bittner]

So, I mean, Maria, let me start with you. I mean, obviously these sorts of scams we talk about every week, but it was really interesting to me how Simon just sort of emphasizes the growth of these, how they're everywhere.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah. And we focus on them a lot this time of year, certainly. But I don't really think there is a season necessarily. And we've talked about a lot on the show about even if the victim or victim's friends or family know that they're being scammed, they're so insidious. And people often really want to believe that they're real, no matter what their self image sort of hinges on this possibility of it maybe being real, that it's very hard to get someone.

[Joe Kerrigan]

To.

[Maria Fernanda]

Stop going along with it, even if they're causing themselves harm. So I don't. We often talk about it, and I don't know what the great solution is here, aside from we just gotta keep trying. But it's not great that there's not only more effective than ever, but now with AI in the mix, they're even harder to detect. So people are getting hooked more easily. It's just insidious.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Any thoughts, Joe? I mean, this thought thing about psychological coercion and social engineering being such a key part of this.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah. And the AI enablement of this just lets you do it at scale.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Which is something that really. This kind of. These kind of scams really needed to be done in person. And you. There was a limit, and now that limit has been pushed. Also, I've noticed in researching for today's show that the FBI, a lot of branches of the FBI, like different field offices, have released guidance on being aware of romance games around Valentine's Day. So I think one of the things Maria said was absolutely correct. This is not a seasonal thing. Valentine's Day is just when we pay attention to it. This goes on 365 days a year.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, again, our thanks to Simon Horsewell. He is a senior fraud specialist at Entrust and we do appreciate him taking the time for us. Joe, Maria, it is time for our catch of the day.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Our catch of the Day this week comes from the scam subreddit and it is a letter from the U.S. department of Justice Drug Enforcement Agency. Or at least its seems to be.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah. So it goes like this. It starts off and it says, federal investigation of violations of U.S. law. This letter is to inform you that you've been identified as a potential witness in a federal investigation being conducted in the Eastern District of New York concerning felony violations of U.S. federal law, including but not limited to, mail fraud, wire fraud, money laundering, distribution and possession with intent to distribute controlled substances, misbranded drugs, entry of goods by false statements, and conspiracy in violation of multiple U.S. statutes. Specifically, investigators have determined that there is evidence establishing that you have either directly or indirectly purchased via the Internet, counterfeit pharmaceutical and chemical products from an illegal international drug trafficking organization. This investigation is ongoing and no final charging decisions have been made. If you would like to provide a statement or speak with an investigator, please share your preferred contact information or phone us at this number. Sincerely, David Olesky, Special Agent in Charge.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Is this. This seems real. I don't know if this is fake. This would 100% work on me. Really?

[Maria Fernanda]

It has all these numbers on it, too. You're in violation of 18 USC section blah, blah, blah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

It says they're investigating a crime and you may have purchased counterfeit goods. Yeah, this seems like they're looking for plaintiffs.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah. It says you could be a witness.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah.

[Dave Bittner]

Well, it is a scam.

[Joe Kerrigan]

It is a scam.

[Dave Bittner]

It is a scam.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Well, thank you for bringing this to me because I'm like, oh, interesting. Totally worked on me. Right through my filters. It's well worded. Interesting. So what's the scam?

[Dave Bittner]

Well, I mean, it's just, you know, you. You scan, they're just trying to get you on the phone, on the line, they're trying to get you to call them, and then there's, you know, any number of scams that they can then pull on you.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Okay, so this is just the. The tip of the spear, as it were.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah, I mean, it's a law enforcement scam. Same sort of thing where you get a voicemail message from somebody claiming to be the sheriff and you missed jury duty or.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Dave Bittner]

It's. It's along those lines. One of the things that caught my eye is that on the letterhead here, allegedly from the dea. It says it's coming from the Rocky Mountain Field Division in Colorado, but the body of the letter says it's an investigation in the Eastern District of New York.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yep.

[Dave Bittner]

Okay, good point.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah, I was wondering about that.

[Dave Bittner]

That's a possibility. But, no, I followed through and chased this one down. And it is indeed a scam. The folks who researched this actually got in touch with the folks at the Department of Justice. And they were like, yeah, nope, that's not us. That's a scam. Yeah.

[Simon Horsewell]

Wow.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah. A pretty good one.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah.

[Dave Bittner]

Pretty good one.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah, that's. I mean, really good. I mean, I just totally. It just knocked all my defenses right down. And what made it look not like a scam to me was that they're not saying, we're coming to get you. Right. It looks to me like, hey, specifically, investigators have determined there's evidence establishing that you have either directly or indirectly purchased via the Internet, counterfeit pharmaceuticals, chemical products from illegal distribution drug trafficking organizations.

[Maria Fernanda]

And Joe, you're like, yeah, that's plausible. Yeah, sounds like a thing I would have done.

[Dave Bittner]

I'm always buying janky drugs online.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right. I do put it immediately in the.

[Dave Bittner]

Trash because I'm looking for a deal. Yeah.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah, me, I would have been like, yeah, that's not a thing I do. So, you know, if they said, you know, maybe you've been pirating videos, I go, yeah, maybe I know somebody who might be doing that. But not drugs. No.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Well, I mean, I get my. Some of my maintenance medications delivered on Through a mail order pharmacy.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah, right.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah, I access that online. You know, this is why it would.

[Dave Bittner]

Work on me, right? Yeah. It's plausible. If they sent this to you, they would have found someone that this checks enough boxes.

[Joe Kerrigan]

This checks enough boxes that I would.

[Dave Bittner]

Have fallen for it.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah, I mean, you heard me. I was on the side that this is. Maybe we made a mistake putting this in here.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah, I agree. It's one of the better ones we've seen out there. It's funny, in looking at the responses to this, how many people said, just in general, never provide a statement or speak with an investigator unless you have to. Unless you have no other choice.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah, I've heard that advice from lawyers.

[Dave Bittner]

As well, thing, you know, never talk to the cops. You never know what they're up to. So people had that response too. I don't know how much you need, how breathless a response that is or not, I don't know. But it was interesting to see that. That came up multiple times in people's responses to this and the comments of this one. But, yeah, turns out it was actually a scam. Huh. So, wow. Beware.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Oh, look at that. I guess I look like the idiot this week. But that's okay.

[Dave Bittner]

That's your turn.

[Joe Kerrigan]

You know, it happens, right? It happens to all of us.

[Dave Bittner]

That's right.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Nobody is immune.

[Dave Bittner]

Even me.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I sit here every week talking about somebody getting scammed.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I'm about to find out what BofA means, so.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yes, you are. Oh, my God.

[Dave Bittner]

Most environments trust too much and attackers know it. Threat Locker enforces default deny at execution, blocks unknown apps and limits what trusted apps can do. Stop ransomware at the source. Get your [e-mail] N2K. And that is our show. We want to thank all of you for listening. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing world of cybersecurity. If you like our show, please share a rating and review in your favorite podcast. Apparently, please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to hackinghumans2k.com this episode is produced by Liz Stokes. Our executive producers, Jennifer Ibin were mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester. Peter Kilpie is our publisher. I'm Dave Buettner.

[Joe Kerrigan]

And I'm Joe Dees Kerrigan.

[Maria Fernanda]

And I'm Maria for most. Joe. No, I'm not doing it.

[Dave Bittner]

Thanks for listening.

[Maria Fernanda]

I'm not doing it.

[Dave Bittner]

All right, I'm looking this up now.

[Maria Fernanda]

Oh, God.

[Joe Kerrigan]

No, no, no. Just Dave now. Now we're not recording. You can ask me what is. What is both.

[Maria Fernanda]

Oh, we're definitely recording this.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Oh, yeah.

[Maria Fernanda]

There's no way we're missing this. You kidding me?

[Dave Bittner]

This is going after the show credits, so. All right, so should I ask or should I look it up?

[Joe Kerrigan]

No, you should ask.

[Dave Bittner]

All right. Joe.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah.

[Dave Bittner]

BofA. What does it mean?

[Joe Kerrigan]

BofA. Ds nuts.

[Dave Bittner]

Are you kidding me?

[Joe Kerrigan]

No.

[Dave Bittner]

It's that simple.

[Maria Fernanda]

Yes, it's that simple, man. Oh, It's middle school humor at its very best days.

[Joe Kerrigan]

That's why I said I'm Joe Dee's Kerrigan. I was hoping that Maria would go off.

[Dave Bittner]

Marie. I am not kidding me.

[Maria Fernanda]

Are you saying it, dude? I'm not saying it.

[Dave Bittner]

Maria. You knew this?

[Maria Fernanda]

Yeah. Oh, what do you think, I'm a lady.

[Simon Horsewell]

Come on.

[Dave Bittner]

You know, my youngest son got me with the Ligma version of this.

[Maria Fernanda]

What's Ligma? Ligma.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Maria Fernanda]

What's Ligma?

[Dave Bittner]

What's Ligma? Ligma.

[Simon Horsewell]

Balls.

[Dave Bittner]

Oh, okay. You're a teenager. I'll allow it.

[Joe Kerrigan]

My son still tries to get me with you. He's 26.

[Maria Fernanda]

So when you go back and re. Listen to the part where you're like, I'm enjoying learning about BofA, and you hear me pissing myself laughing.

[Dave Bittner]

Yeah. At the end of the show, I'll experience BofA.

[Maria Fernanda]

Both of these nuts. There you go.

[Dave Bittner]

See? And here I thought it was going to be something sophisticated, clever.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I told you. You.

[Maria Fernanda]

I'm very glad you didn't Google it.

[Dave Bittner]

Humor. All right, I'm going to stop the recording.