The delusional side of AI therapy.

Summary

Hacking Humans: The Delusional Side of AI Therapy

Podcast Information:

• Title: Hacking Humans
• Host/Author: N2K Networks
• Description: Deception, influence, and social engineering in the world of cybercrime.
• Episode: The Delusional Side of AI Therapy
• Release Date: July 24, 2025

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Introduction and Listener Interaction

The episode kicks off with hosts Dave Buettner and Joe Kerrigan, joined by Maria Vermazes, engaging in a light-hearted conversation about travel scams in Paris. They discuss a listener's anecdote about encountering a deceptive fundraising scam involving a mute woman collecting donations for the deaf and mute community. The listener, Khajatan (pronounced Kajatan), shares how the scam was exposed when they tried to retract their donation, leading to the woman's aggressive reaction.

Notable Quote:

"[00:58] Dave Buettner: ...the woman unfolded the paper, revealing a new column with a donation value... And that is when I performed a miracle and made a mute woman speak."

Maria Vermazes emphasizes the prevalence of scammers in tourist hotspots like Montmartre and the Sacré-Cœur Basilica, advising listeners to remain cautious and avoid engaging with unsolicited approaches.

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Return to Main Topics: Point of Sale (POS) Terminal Fraud

Maria introduces the first major story of the week, informed by listener feedback from Rob, AKA Crow Child Bob. The discussion centers on a rising trend in fraud involving Point of Sale (POS) terminals used by merchants across Canada.

Key Points:

• POS Terminal Vulnerabilities: Many small businesses utilize portable POS systems (e.g., Square, Clover, Toast) that often retain default passwords, making them susceptible to unauthorized refunds.
• Mechanism of Fraud: Fraudsters gain physical access to unattended terminals, altering settings or passwords to issue substantial refunds themselves. Cases cited include:
  • Souvlaki Hut in Toronto: A fraudulent $2,000 refund issued without actual service provision.
  • Pippins Tea Company: Another scammer managed $4,900 in unauthorized refunds under the guise of purchasing and refunding a teapot.
• Lack of Awareness: Many business owners are unaware of the necessity to change default passwords or secure their POS systems adequately.

Expert Insight: Claudio Popa, a security expert cited by CTV, notes that most POS terminals sold to small businesses are improperly configured from the outset, making them lucrative targets for criminals.

Recommendations:

• Change Default Passwords: Immediate alteration of default access credentials.
• Secure POS Devices: Lock terminals when not in use, restrict physical access, and implement two-factor authentication for high-value transactions.
• Employee Training: Educate staff on recognizing and preventing unauthorized access to POS systems.

Notable Quotes:

"[07:53] Joe Kerrigan: $2,000 in souvlaki."

"[09:47] Joe Kerrigan: ... there’s a default setting or password in the point of sale owners. Those store owners don’t know that they’re supposed to change it."

"[11:56] Maria Vermazes: One weird trick to get yourself arrested immediately."

Maria draws parallels to the "TikTok ATM hack," highlighting the shifting focus from cyber to physical exploitation as systems become more cybersecurity-hardened.

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AI in Therapy: Risks and Shortcomings

Transitioning to the central theme, Dave presents a story from Ars Technica regarding the use of Large Language Models (LLMs) in therapeutic settings. A Stanford research team evaluated AI systems’ effectiveness in responding to individuals with mental health conditions, particularly those exhibiting suicidal ideation and delusional thinking.

Key Findings:

• Therapeutic Guideline Failures: AI models often deviate from established therapeutic practices, sometimes validating harmful beliefs or providing misguided advice.
• Impact on Vulnerable Individuals: Inconsistencies and incorrect responses can exacerbate users’ mental health issues, potentially contributing to tragic outcomes, such as cases where interactions with AI have been linked to severe incidents involving individuals with schizophrenia.

Discussion Among Hosts:

• Joe Kerrigan: Expresses skepticism about the utility of AI chatbots in therapy, emphasizing a lack of fulfillment compared to human interaction.
• Dave Buettner: Acknowledges that while AI can offer non-judgmental support and constant availability, the studies reveal significant risks due to AI’s inability to handle complex emotional and psychological needs adequately.
• Maria Vermazes: Highlights the dependency some individuals may develop on AI for mental health support, underscoring the necessity for real human connections.

Notable Quotes:

"[20:13] Maria Vermazes: Oh, my God."

"[21:11] Joe Kerrigan: I think it was autism. He was on the spectrum."

"[22:29] Joe Kerrigan: You know, these guardrails on these things are not quite robust enough to be fully trusted."

Conclusion: The conversation concludes with the consensus that while AI holds potential in supporting mental health services, it currently lacks the nuanced understanding and accountability required for effective therapy. The hosts stress the importance of integrating better safeguards and critical evaluations to prevent harm to vulnerable users.

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Additional Stories and Insights

Listener Experiences with Scams: Joe shares personal anecdotes about encountering toll scams and responding to them by warning others in the group, illustrating the ongoing struggle against widespread financial deception.

Catch of the Day: Romantic and Financial Scams: The hosts analyze a scam story from the subreddit r/scam, where an individual was emotionally manipulated over five months before the scammer demanded a hefty sum of €15,000 for customs clearance of a supposed $700,000 inheritance shipment. The red flags discussed include:

• Unusual Payment Requests: Demanding large sums in foreign currency (euros) for customs fees.
• Suspicious Shipping Details: Use of militaristic or official-sounding company names and inconsistent location information.
• Emotional Manipulation: Extended period of communication to build trust and emotional investment before financial demands.

Notable Quotes:

"[46:11] Joe Kerrigan: Hold on right there. Why is U.S. customs accepting payment in euros?"

"[47:05] Maria Vermazes: Yes. The attention to detail throughout this, like, everything looks convincingly like it should be from or to Germany."

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Final Thoughts and Recommendations

The episode wraps up with a call to action for listeners to stay vigilant against evolving scams and to verify the legitimacy of services, especially those involving financial transactions and personal information. The hosts reiterate the need for continuous education and robust security measures to protect both individuals and small businesses from falling victim to sophisticated fraud schemes.

Notable Quote:

"[29:38] Maria Vermazes: ... check in with your friends if you know they're using these things and just let them know that if things get dark and it seems as though one of these models is leading them down a bad path, that they do have real life human friends that they should check in with and have their back."

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Conclusion

In "The Delusional Side of AI Therapy," Hacking Humans delves into the intersection of technology and human vulnerability, highlighting the dual threats of POS terminal fraud and the pitfalls of relying on AI for mental health support. Through engaging discussions and real-world examples, the hosts underscore the critical importance of security awareness and the irreplaceable value of human empathy in both commerce and healthcare.

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Additional Resources:

• Show Notes: hackinghumans2k.com
• Sponsor: ThreatLocker

Credits:

• Produced by: Liz Stokes
• Executive Producer: Jennifer Ibin
• Mixed by: Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester
• Publisher: Peter Kilpe
• Hosts: Dave Buettner, Joe Kerrigan, Maria Vermazes

Transcript

[Maria Vermazes]

You're listening to the Cyberwire Network, powered by N2K.

[Dave Buettner]

Hello, everyone and welcome to N2K, CyberWire's hacking humans podcast, where each week we look behind the social engineering scams, phishing schemes and criminal exploits that are making headlines and taking a heavy toll on organizations around the world. I'm Dave Buettner and joining me is Joe Kerrigan. Hey, Joe.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Hi.

[Dave Buettner]

Dav, colleague and host of the T minus Space Daily podcast, Maria Vermazes. Maria.

[Maria Vermazes]

Hi Dave. And hi Joe.

[Dave Buettner]

We've got some good stories to share this week. Before we do, we've got some follow up here. I guess I will start with this one. So this is from a listener who wrote in, I want to say their name is Khajatan. Do you think I have that right? Any guesses on pronunciation?

[Joe Kerrigan]

Kajatan.

[Dave Buettner]

Kajatan.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Kajatan.

[Dave Buettner]

Maria, got your time.

[Maria Vermazes]

That would be my guess also.

[Dave Buettner]

All right. Apologies if I got it wrong, but they write in and say, hi, Dave, Joe and Maria. While listening to the latest episode and the statistics about travel scams. I remember one time some years ago when I performed a true miracle in Paris, France. While walking around Paris, I was approached by a woman with a note. She didn't say anything, just pointed at the note. The note stated in several languages that the woman was deaf and mute and they collected name signatures for support of of the deaf and mute community in Paris. There were several names on the list already. Sure, why not, I thought, and I signed the list. After I did that, the woman unfolded the paper, revealing a new column with a donation value. Next to each name there was a donation of about 10 to €100. She handed the note back to me, pointing at the numbers and expecting money. Oh, I said gladly. I took the paper and crossed out my name. The mute woman went furious and started screaming, screaming at me in some language that was not French. And that was the time I performed a miracle and made a mute woman speak. Keep up the good work. I love your podcast, so well done.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Pleasure time.

[Maria Vermazes]

Yes.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah, my understanding is like, especially around the Eiffel Tower, like it's just scammer central.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Maria Vermazes]

All of the tourist hot spots in Paris are pretty much scammer central. So a bunch of places I avoid.

[Joe Kerrigan]

In Paris right now. I'm not worried about him though. He's. He's pretty sharp and pretty quick witted.

[Dave Buettner]

Right? Right. I mean, people are doing like the cups and balls tricks and the. I know, stealing lenses off of people's cameras. I've seen all those kinds of things.

[Maria Vermazes]

So There's a, there's a common one. At least it used to be in Montmartre where the Sacre Coeur cathedrals. It has that beautiful view of the city where there are very aggressive touts that will try to tie a bracelet around your wrist as you walk by and then basically be like, I gave you a bracelet. You have to pay for it. And like they can be very physically aggressive. So there are some parts of Paris that I just completely avoid. And that is one of them, frankly.

[Joe Kerrigan]

What happens if you get physical back? I wonder.

[Maria Vermazes]

I'm a five foot one woman, so I don't wanna know.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Well, I have an idea. I have an idea. What happens is that like five or six of their friends show up and they all beat the crap out of you.

[Maria Vermazes]

Yeah, I would imagine. I don't wanna find out firsthand. So the answer is I just avoid those places. But I think rule number one in any majorly touristed city is anyone approaching you for any reason is not to be trusted.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right. They're suspect.

[Maria Vermazes]

So just keep walking.

[Dave Buettner]

It's so strange. Cause the Parisians are known for being friendly to Americans.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right? So yeah, that, that would raise my, my, my red flags immediately. Oh, I'm in Paris and someone's being nice to me. An American.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah. I don't know, Joe, you think they'd peg you as an American? How long do you think that would take?

[Joe Kerrigan]

Oh, five seconds.

[Maria Vermazes]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Everywhere I go and I've always been.

[Dave Buettner]

You'd be lumbering around with your baseball cap and. Or not your baseball cap, your cowboy hat.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Cowboy hat.

[Maria Vermazes]

Oh my God, they would love you, Joe, they would love you. I must be the one of the only Americans who had a really nice time in Paris and had no issues at all with par. Lived there for six months. I thought everybody was very nice.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Well, that's nice. I mean, you live there, they get to know you.

[Maria Vermazes]

Yeah, I remember the same person every time. All my interactions, my interactions were generally very nice. So I don't know, I did not have that rude Parisian experience at all. I thought everybody was great. But I also lived in New York City before then, so I was like, it's a city, people are city people here.

[Dave Buettner]

So I was going to say you're putting out all sorts of Greek vibes, so that was your camouflage.

[Maria Vermazes]

Oh, I really wish that was the case. But I was very. I'm very obviously American. I'm very, very obviously American. I got clogged immediately. So it's. And it's fine. Yeah.

[Dave Buettner]

And now a word from our Sponsor Threat Locker, the powerful zero trust enterprise solution that stops ransomware in its tracks. Allow Listing is a deny by default software that makes application control simple and fast. Ring Fencing is an application containment strategy ensuring apps can only access the files, registry keys, network resources and other applications they truly need to function. Shut out cybercriminals with world class endpoint protection from Threat Locker. All right, well, let's move on to our stories here. Maria, you are up first this week. What do you have for us?

[Maria Vermazes]

Well, I'm starting with some, some listener feedback because I thought this was a really interesting email and I wanted to follow up on their prompting. So here' email we got. Hi guys. Love the show. And that's the reason I wanted to use this email.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Maria Vermazes]

I have a story idea about an issue that's happening here in the Great White North. We have lots of folks that pay by card when going to shops or restaurants. Many have these portal POS terminals and that's point of sale everybody. Not the other meaning of pos not like my card. Many of them and many of them are left unattended. Shops have been defrauded because they haven't taken the time to change the default access password on the terminal. Fraudsters are picking up the terminal and issuing unauthorized refunds to themselves, sometimes in the thousands of dollars. CTV is a national broadcaster here in the Great White north and he means Canada. I want to make sure I clarify for our listeners and they have a story here and I'll follow up on that in a second. There are many other stories, but this is just one example maybe worth investigating. Regards, Rob, AKA Crow Child Bob. Thank you, Crow Child Bob. So I went to the link that he sent and I did a little reading and I thought this was a really interesting story because I had not been hearing much about this E. So those point of sale terminals in North America are frequently square clover toast. These have been common in a lot of the world for a long time. But you know, you tap or swipe your credit card and they're pretty mobile. They're not necessarily attached to the counter, the counter anymore. You know, they do the transaction for you and they're the things that frequently they'll flip them around with the screen, say, Please give a 25% tip for this coffee that they just handed to you. That kind of thing.

[Dave Buettner]

Right, right.

[Maria Vermazes]

So these are those kinds of terminals Rob's referring to. And the story that he sent from CTV was piqued my interest because it starts off with a place called Souvlaki Hut In Toronto. So I was like, okay, this has got to be maybe in Greek town in Toronto. And a customer, a fraudulent customer, issued himself a $2,000 refund on a point of sale terminal at, again, Souvlaki Hut, where maybe you're spending $4 a sale on average. That is quite a refund.

[Joe Kerrigan]

$2,000 in souvlaki.

[Maria Vermazes]

Aside from you, you have not met my family, Joe.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I love souvlaki. It's good stuff.

[Dave Buettner]

Can I just admit, I have no idea what souvlaki is.

[Maria Vermazes]

Meat on a stick.

[Dave Buettner]

Meat on a stick.

[Maria Vermazes]

Grilled meat on a stick.

[Dave Buettner]

Okay, all right. Well, that sounds like something I'd enjoy.

[Maria Vermazes]

Grilled pork, grilled chicken, grilled beef, grilled lamb on a stick.

[Dave Buettner]

So it's like Greek shish kebab.

[Maria Vermazes]

It is exactly. Essentially. Exactly like that.

[Dave Buettner]

Okay.

[Maria Vermazes]

It's nothing. It is comfort food. Yeah, yeah, it's comfort food. So the. This specific situation with a $2,000 reef fraudulent refund, the. The criminal in this case picked up the terminal to hide what he was doing. So I guess he was doing this in semi plain sight of the store owner and then actually, while still in the store, gave himself that refund, which, that's kind of ballsy, I gotta say. And the owner's son, when he spoke to ctv, said they had no idea that the terminal could do that without their explicit permission. So they didn't even know this was a thing, that this was possible. And a second business nearby to Souvlaki Hut in Toronto, the Pippins Tea Company had a similar scam happen to them. A guy pretended to buy a teapot from them and then refunded himself through the point of sale terminal. $4,900. That. That is. That is put the business out of business kind of money, depending on how small that business is. I mean, that is a lot.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah.

[Maria Vermazes]

So the interesting thing about the CTV story was a lot of the people they spoke to who are store owners, again, didn't know that this was possible, had no idea what protections were in place, if any, or what they should do to prevent it. Because in a lot of cases, it's just there's a default setting or password in the point of sale owners. Those store owners don't know that they're supposed to change it. And this is a. For our friends in it, this is a familiar story for people who are familiar with, like, Iot in the home. We always say, first thing you do when you bring it home is change that default password.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Maria Vermazes]

That information doesn't seem to have trickled to our friends in the retail world who are small business owners, especially in this situation. So security expert that CTV spoke to named Claudio Popa said that most of the POS terminals sold to small businesses are misconfigured from the start. So thieves are like, yay, this is great for me. And apparently, and apparently, according to law enforcement in Toronto, this is a rapidly growing trend. Trend in the city, I'm sure in many cities all over North America, we're seeing this. And normally when we see point of sale fraud spoken about at least since 2020, especially like since COVID a lot of this discussions have been around ransomware or malware, these terminals being vulnerable that way. But it seems that the actual physical scam of going into the store and either giving yourself a refund, literally while the store's owner is turned, or even breaking into the store after hours and accessing the point of sale terminal when nobody's there is. That's a. That's a big growing thing. So the recommendation to store owners is to make sure they lock away their terminals, change pins weekly, keep them out of reach when not in use. So really keep an eye on those terminals. And of course, change the default password. But do you know how to do that? Is it easy to do? Is it obvious how to do. Who knows? And the vendors and the victims in this case say that they really wish that the default passwords are safer, but again, they should change those. Or at least that they would require two factor authentication for things like refund limits. Which sounds like a good idea, right? So, yeah, it's to be clear, again, this is outright fraud, right. To give yourself a refund like this. And it makes. It just reminded me of a thing I think we did talk about a little While ago, the TikTok ATM hack that was going around where people were just hack. Do you remember this in airport?

[Joe Kerrigan]

I remember keenly.

[Maria Vermazes]

Yeah. Yeah. This, this straight up check fraud that was going around virally on, on TikTok is like, hey, this is a way you can get free money from an atm. And people just were like, no, actually that's just fraud and that's a crime. Actually, Joe, I believe you said that that's straight up a crime. Seem to remember you saying, like, let's be clear, this is a crime.

[Dave Buettner]

That's one weird trick.

[Maria Vermazes]

One weird trick to get yourself arrested immediately. So, yeah, it's just. It makes me think of that like, this is. This is a crime. This is not like one weird way to get money from a small business that really cannot spare that cash. So it's just very interesting that, you know, maybe as these terminals are getting hardened against cyber attacks, the physical attacks become the preferred vector, or all at the same time, who knows? But it's just very interesting. So thank you, Crowchild, Bob, for pointing this out.

[Dave Buettner]

You know, what I'm thinking about here that I never considered is that that little terminal, which, in my mind I'm picturing something like a. That looks like an iPad, you know, and it's sitting there on the counter, and a lot of times the person behind the counter will enter in whatever they need to enter, and then they'll flip it around. Right. It's on some kind of stuff and then walk away. Yeah. But even if it's attached to the counter, they'll flip it around, and they may not necessarily be able to see what you're doing on the screen anymore. And so I think that if, you know, the. The guts of this thing and the secret incantations to get under the hood, there's your opportunity.

[Maria Vermazes]

Yeah. Many times I've been in that situation and the person's busy. They're probably doing five things or the job of five people. So they flip that screen around and they walk far away, and there's nobody else around. And there have been times in my life where I have been near a computer that is open or a terminal that is open, and I've often wondered, what does this do? If I touch that button and I go, oh, I now have admin access to this thing. Isn't that fun?

[Joe Kerrigan]

I completely empathize with that. And sometimes I will actually have to put my hands in my pockets to make sure I don't touch anything.

[Maria Vermazes]

Yeah, yeah. Some of us just naturally gravitate to that. And I know not to get myself into legal trouble. I obviously don't steal from anybody. That would be very wrong. But, you know, but sometimes I'm just like, it is so easy. And I just. It makes me a little scared and sad that these are not. And it should not be the burden of your local coffee shop to become an IT security expert. Like, these things should be locked down. So, yeah, it's just, oh, gosh, don't walk away, guys. Just keep an eye on them.

[Dave Buettner]

The other one I think of, that I see all the time is if I'm in a large store like a Target or a Macy's or something like that, where there are people who are out there stocking shelves or rearranging things, checking, pricing, labeling, stock, all that Kind of stuff. They will very often have a little handheld device that assists them in doing that. Maybe it prints labels, maybe it scans barcodes. They can put in the amount of inventory that there is out on the floor, that sort of thing, using this device. And you see this device, you recognize it for what it is, because there are probably only a handful of variations on this that retailers use. But, boy, do those stock people leave them lying around the store a lot, right?

[Maria Vermazes]

Yeah, they do. Yeah. Yeah. And I know we shouldn't mess with these things. I understand that, but.

[Dave Buettner]

I know. But I really want to play with one.

[Maria Vermazes]

I know.

[Dave Buettner]

I want to know. I know. It's been sitting there, you know, Shame on you. Right?

[Maria Vermazes]

Press the button.

[Dave Buettner]

You're just leaving it? What choice do I have? It's just laying there. There's no one around.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I was in one of our local stores one day and they had this, like, a tablet that normally would display something, but whatever app it was had crashed and left. Windows, I think. Ce. Was that the edition that was like the Embedded Systems Edition?

[Dave Buettner]

Wince. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Wi Wince.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Is that what it was called?

[Dave Buettner]

Well, that's what some of us called it.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right. And it's just sitting there, and I'm like, what's going on here? I pushed the start button. Now the screen didn't work. The touchscreen did not work.

[Dave Buettner]

So it was thwarted.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I was thwarted. But if I had my wireless or my keyboard with me, I could have just plugged it in. One of the USB ports, it was just sitting there exposed.

[Dave Buettner]

Right, right. I don't know, Joe. I expect if you're walking around with your usual backpack, you have a keyboard in there, right?

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah, I might. Sometimes I do.

[Maria Vermazes]

Maybe an antenna. Maybe some other things.

[Joe Kerrigan]

There's an antenna sticking out of my bag, right?

[Maria Vermazes]

Oh, well, yeah, yeah, yeah. When you go to defcon. No, I'm just kidding.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I gotta go to defcon.

[Maria Vermazes]

How popular are you when you go to defcon?

[Joe Kerrigan]

I've never been. Really? Yeah. I wanna go bad Joe.

[Dave Buettner]

No. When Joe's backpack is so big that when he's driving around in his car on the highway, he has to pull over into the way stations.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Dave Buettner]

Because of how much stuff he has in his backpack.

[Maria Vermazes]

How's your scoliosis, Joe? Is it?

[Joe Kerrigan]

Well, the backpack pulls it straight.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah.

[Maria Vermazes]

Oh, there you go. Okay.

[Dave Buettner]

All right. We will have a link to that story in the show Notes. I'm up next here. And my story comes from the folks over at Ars Technica. And this is about people using large language models. The AI systems for therapy. Before we dig in here, let me ask either of you, do either of you ever interact with these models in a purely conversational kind of way?

[Joe Kerrigan]

I try to, yes. Although I've found lately that ChatGPT has changed the voices to make them hesitate and use inarticulate speech like, and in an effort to make them seem more relatable. And it does not work with me. I don't like it.

[Dave Buettner]

Oh, interesting.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah.

[Maria Vermazes]

Okay, Maria, I just want to ask a clarifying question about your question. Are we talking about mental health models specifically or just.

[Dave Buettner]

No, no, I'm just saying in, like, do you ever just, you know, strike up a conversation to see how it does or, you know, I've heard of people who just, like, they'll. They'll kill time during their morning commute just by chatting with the AI, you know?

[Maria Vermazes]

I do not. But I think that's because in the 90s, when AI, not AI, these are just regular old AOL chatbots and the like were around, I think I got that out of my system back then and I just. I didn't find it very fulfilling. So that temptation is not there for me anymore. I know they're much more sophisticated, but I just. I don't know, I just don't feel curious about that. I don't know why.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah, I haven't either, any more than just playing around with it deliberately, you know, here at my desk. I haven't used it for conversational time killing, anything like that.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Well, I want to clarify what I said. I don't use it for conversational time killing, like, and asking like, just, hey, how you doing? I have a specific question in mind and I'll ask clarifying questions and drill down on it in a conversational manner.

[Dave Buettner]

I see.

[Joe Kerrigan]

But I don't know that I've ever actually sat down and talked to it like a person.

[Dave Buettner]

Right. Well, lots of people do, for better, for worse. And some researchers at Stanford recently presented at a conference, this was the ACM conference on Fairness, Accountability and Transparency. And they presented on how these large language models do when responding to people who have mental health conditions. And they tested the AI systems using fictional scenarios that reflected serious symptoms, things like suicidal ideation and delusional thinking. So some heavy, serious stuff. And what they found is that the models often failed to follow accepted therapeutic guidelines, and they would sometimes validate harmful beliefs or offer advice that could make things worse. And this isn't just the general chatgpts of the world. This is also the chatbots that are designed to provide Therapy, Right. They're supposed to be tuned.

[Maria Vermazes]

Oh, my God.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I don't think that's a good idea to have a chatbot that's designed to provide therapy.

[Maria Vermazes]

But a lot of people use them, Joe. A lot of people who can't afford or cannot find a mental health provider in person, they rely on these. I know several people who do. And, oh, boy, I've got some phone calls to make after this episode because I did not know this. That's alarming.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah. I mean, and to be fair, I mean, I think there are plenty of people who have. Who find serious value in this. Right. Legitimate value. That it is someone to talk to. It's someone who's not going to judge you. It's always available. I remember early on, you and I have talked about this way back on this show. There was a story when Siri first came out for the iPhone that there was a young man who had some developmental issues.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I think it was autism. He was on the spectrum.

[Dave Buettner]

And the thing that was so great about Ciri is that she had endless patience. Right. This kid was basically a motor mouth and was just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, and was wearing the rest of his family out. You know, God bless them. I mean, they were doing their best and they were trying, but the bot had endless patience. And so in that case, it was a good thing for everybody. And so obviously, as these things have gotten more advanced and more capable and more real seeming, there are several that have been spun up that are designed to help you with in a therapeutic kind of way. But this study found that they don't always do well. They said they tend to validate harmful beliefs which they call sycophancy, like, I guess, sycophants.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Sycophancy.

[Maria Vermazes]

Yescophancy. Sycophancy.

[Dave Buettner]

Sycophancy, yeah. That sycophancy potentially reinforcing people's delusions or conspiracy theories.

[Joe Kerrigan]

You are right, Joe.

[Dave Buettner]

Wow. Yeah. Everyone is out to get you.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Maria Vermazes]

I knew that tinfoil you had of yours looks great, right?

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah. And there are cases in the media where this has contributed to suicide or fatal incidents, where there was a case where a man who had schizophrenia was killed by police after interacting with ChatGPT. So they're putting the sort of the warning flag up about this. A couple other little details. They said that it doesn't seem like the newer or larger models are any better at this than the older, smaller models were. They're looking for critical evaluations and better safeguards, but they're saying that they don't want to abandon the notion of AI in mental health, that there is a part that it could play, but we just need to be able to put better guardrails on it. And this was the real take home for me. They said there's a mismatch between AI's goal to please and therapy's need for tough conversations and reality checks. And to me, this really tracks with. Because my experience with these AIs is like, you know, hey, ChatGPT, the sky is red. And the ChatGPT will say, oh, Dave, you're right. You're so smart. The sky is red.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right? Yeah. I've had that happen with me as well. Right now. Normally, I am right about something in ChatGPT is. What do they call them? Confabulations. Now, they don't want to call them hallucinations.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah, confabulations.

[Joe Kerrigan]

And ChatGPT will be confabulating about something, but I'll correct it. There was one time I asked it who invented something, and knowing full well it was me, and I hold the patent on it. But.

[Dave Buettner]

This is the ChatGPT version of Googling yourself.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yes, exactly.

[Maria Vermazes]

Who is the brilliant person who made the thing?

[Dave Buettner]

It came back with the singular mind from which this invention was spawned. Right.

[Joe Kerrigan]

But here's the thing.

[Maria Vermazes]

Yes. When Kapon is phoned.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Here's the weird thing about that conversation is after. After I gave it the patent number to go look at, it went, oh, that's you. And I had. You know, I don't know whether I've ever conversationally told ChatGPT who I am.

[Dave Buettner]

Oh, but it knew.

[Joe Kerrigan]

But it knew.

[Maria Vermazes]

You can check the its memories, though. You can check to see what it knows about you so you can find them out.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Well, the company OpenAI has my information. They have my billing address and all that stuff, because I do pay 20 bucks a month for that service. I think it's worth it. I get a lot of use out of it. And it really does help. At my office the other day, somebody actually accused me of being someone who hates not knowing something, which is 100% correct. I cannot stand not knowing something.

[Dave Buettner]

I was gonna say, that tracks.

[Joe Kerrigan]

When I am in the car with my son or my wife and I'm driving, which I usually am. And I have an idea. We're having a conversation, and I want to know something. They both take great delight in going, yeah, I don't know. And then doing nothing else.

[Dave Buettner]

Oh, they hang you out to drive.

[Joe Kerrigan]

They hang me out to drive. Right.

[Dave Buettner]

Intentionally. And I'm like, oh, my, what torture.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Can you can you Google that and read to me what it says?

[Maria Vermazes]

They know that button. Depressed dude. They know exactly.

[Dave Buettner]

That's diabolical.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I am not your. But now I don't even. I just turn on ChatGPT in voice mode and I ask it a question and I get my answer and I.

[Dave Buettner]

Go there so that when the day.

[Maria Vermazes]

Comes, you get an answer.

[Dave Buettner]

When the day comes that you're up in the clock tower with a high powered rifle and people are asking what happened? What possibly could have made mild mannered Joe turn to these evil actions.

[Joe Kerrigan]

That might be the first time anybody's ever called me Joe.

[Dave Buettner]

You'll be up there screaming. They wouldn't give me the answer. They wouldn't give me the answ.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I mean, that is one of the things I'll tell you, Dave, that will set me off in a, in a, in a conversation that will set me off in, you know, if somebody just says, you know, unless there's some kind of reason for not knowing, like, hey, that I can't tell you that because proprietary information or I can't tell you that because it's, you know. You know, I have a lot of friends who work in defense. I can't tell you that. It's classified. I can't tell you that for xyz. A good reason. Okay. I can't know it even. Hey, I can't tell you that because it's personal. Yeah, okay, that's fine. I can respect that. But I just don't want to tell you or I'd rather you didn't know that information and just remained in the dark about it. And generally I'm talking about general information. Right. You know, I wanted.

[Maria Vermazes]

Not what happened before the big bang kind of existential questions.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right?

[Maria Vermazes]

Like this is torturing you day and night to know.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah, I mean, well, actually, what happened before the big bang? That would be a good question to have an answer to. Unfortunately, we don't have an answer to that and probably never will.

[Maria Vermazes]

When you get an answer to that, Joe, please share it with me. Nobody else I would very much like to know.

[Dave Buettner]

When I was in high school, I had a buddy who I would call regularly to, you know, call up your friend to get together, check on things. This is how we used to do it back then, before we had mobile devices. And my buddy had a younger brother who was quite a character and pretty subversive little lad. And so sometimes I remember one time I called and I said my friend's name was also David, and his little brother answered the phone and I said, hi, Matthew, this is Dave. Is your brother David there? And he said, no, he's not here. And I said, well, do you have any idea where he is? And he said, I can't tell you that. And I went, what? He said, no, I can't tell you that.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Okay, what did he mean? Did he mean that? He didn't immediately. Now I'm right. You've already got me. I'm over here wiggling in my chair. Dave.

[Dave Buettner]

Right, right.

[Joe Kerrigan]

What do you mean you can't tell me that?

[Dave Buettner]

Yes, exactly. I said, well, why can't you tell me? He said, I can't tell you because. I don't know. I was like, you jerk.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right. Why is that?

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Next time I'm over there, I'm gonna give you a Dutch rub or something. You got a gotcha coming.

[Joe Kerrigan]

You got an atomic wedgie coming?

[Dave Buettner]

Yes, exactly. Your little smarty pants. Yeah. Anyway, so I can relate, Joe. I can relate. That's not a fun position to be in, especially when somebody's yanking your chain.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yes.

[Dave Buettner]

All right, so back to the story here, which of course we will have a link to in the show notes. Just be mindful. You know, like Maria said, check in with your friends if you know they're using these things and just let them know. Remind them that if things get dark and it seems as though one of these models is leading them down a bad path, that they do have real life human friends that they should check in with and have their back. Because evidently the guardrails on these things are not quite robust enough to be fully trusted.

[Maria Vermazes]

Yep. Reminds me of that IBM slide. Do you know the one that's very popular in AI discussion circles right now? The one from 1979. Yeah. The computer can never be held accountable. Therefore a computer must never make a management decision. So in this case, like a mental health decision, Right, Yeah, right. I always think back to that one.

[Dave Buettner]

No, it's good. All right, I'll tell you what, let's take a quick break here to hear from our sponsor. We will be right back. And now back to our sponsor, ThreatLocker, the powerful Zero trust enterprise solution that stops ransomware in its tracks. ThreatLocker Protect is the core Threat Locker product focused on endpoint security, designed to prevent unauthorized software from running, control how applications interact and manage access to storage devices. Its building blocks are allowlisting, ring fencing, and network control. Allowlisting is a deny by default software that makes application control simple and fast. Ring fencing is an application containment strategy, ensuring apps can only access the System resources they truly need to function. Network control locks down access by port, source IP or dynamically with ACLs that automatically update as IP addresses change. Shut out cybercriminals with world class endpoint protection from Threat locker. And we thank ThreatLocker for sponsoring hacking humans. And we are back. Joe, it is your turn. What do you got for us this week?

[Joe Kerrigan]

Before I get to my story, I want to talk about something. My mom texted me yesterday and she said, hey, I got this message that says I owe toll money. I was a scam. Don't even. Don't do it.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Then today I got one and it was sent to like a group of like 10 people.

[Dave Buettner]

Oh, yes.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I don't know if you've ever seen that happen in these toll scams.

[Dave Buettner]

Yes, indeed. I recently got a text. Toll scam. Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I responded to the text and said, you all probably already know this, but this is a scam. Do not click on any of the links.

[Dave Buettner]

Yes.

[Joe Kerrigan]

So hopefully that went out to everybody.

[Dave Buettner]

Yes, yes, I have gotten those.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah, I don't know if that's helpful. I don't know if that May have just wrote myself in to more of these things. Who knows? Oh, this is a good number. And this guy likes health.

[Maria Vermazes]

I don't know if I will respond, but thank you for your sacrifice, I guess.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yes, I guess.

[Dave Buettner]

On behalf of the rest of us.

[Joe Kerrigan]

On the behalf of the other 10 people in that group. So my story actually comes out of kare, you know, west of the Mississippi River. Radio stations and television stations begin with the letter K. Yes, I find that very difficult to deal with. Having grown up entirely and spent most of my life on this side of Mississippi. I want to say W A R E, but it's not. It's KARE, Channel 11 in Minneapolis. Coming from AJ Lago, I hope I'm saying that right. Lego L A G O E. Kelly Dietz and Gary Knox.

[Dave Buettner]

Okay.

[Joe Kerrigan]

And in 2020. 2020, Minnesota became the first state to offer a Medicaid benefit called Housing Stability Services.

[Dave Buettner]

Okay.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Okay. Now this is a Medicaid benefit aimed at helping people avoid homelessness, typically targeting like older people, people who are dealing with addiction, maybe going through addiction treatment, and maybe some disabled people. When Minnesota planned this, they estimated that it was going to cost about $2.6 million a year, which doesn't sound like a lot of money. $2.6 million a year. I can make sure that people who need medical attention don't go homeless. Okay, sounds like a good idea. Good investment.

[Dave Buettner]

Sure.

[Joe Kerrigan]

First year, first full Year of billing. In 2021, the billing was $21 million, almost 10 times what they anticipated. In 2024, the billing was $104 million. Now you are talking something that is two orders of magnitude bigger than what was originally planned. I mean, and I know every time there's a government program, it doesn't matter which organization in the government is. Is. Is doing it. Department of Defense, Department of Health and Human Services, they all have this number that they tell you, and then a couple years down the road, that number is much bigger. But this is unprecedented in terms of, you know, you're not. You're not talking about a small increase. You're talking about two orders of magnitude in four years. So how is this possible? Well, there is an acting U.S. attorney, his name is Joseph Thompson, and he has an answer. He says Minnesota has a fraud problem and not a small one.

[Dave Buettner]

Gee, yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Federal agents laid out examples of huge bills being done by some of these companies who are doing hss. That's what I'm gonna call it. The. What is it called? Housing. Housing Stability Services. I'm just gonna say HSS from now on, where they're reportedly receiving, like, large sums of money, like 40 and $52,000 for clients in a year. 40 to $52,000. Helping clients find housing. So, I mean, really, if you're gonna spend $40,000 to help somebody find housing, you just go, I rented you this apartment. Here it is.

[Dave Buettner]

Right, right.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Live here. And you know, it'll cost less than $40,000 to do that. But they executed a warrant, a search warrant on these companies. And according to the warrants, these companies promise to help these individuals find stable housing as they finish their treatment programs. All too often, the companies do not actually provide any real assistance in finding houses. Instead, the companies simply use the information provided by their recruited clients to. To bill Medicaid for housing stabilization services they do not actually provide. So the Federal investigation identified 22 different HSS providers in this particular warrant, and they said that they served a warrant on these companies, many of them in the same building. Right. So they all have the same address, just different suite numbers in the address. And these providers collectively received more than $8 million in Medicaid payments for housing stabilization services from January to May, January of last year to May of this year. So in 18 months, almost 18 months, they have exceeded the original planned cost in fraud by like three times. Amazing. And then they have these companies, they list them out. I'm gonna name em. This is all, of course, alleged, but because it's a warrant and a search that's going on. Brilliant Mind Services, Leo Human Services, Liberty plus Pristine Health and Falad Care. F A L A D Care Incorporated. In one case, brilliant minds billed $2,000 for services they claim to provide to a woman named Rachel. But Kare actually previously interviewed Rachel because this has been on their radar for a little while, apparently. And she said she never received any services from the company except for one occasion when a person named Mohamed Mohammed dropped off a shark vacuum cleaner at an apartment that she had found for herself without the help of this company. So, hey, thanks for everything. Here's a vacuum cleaner. I did something.

[Maria Vermazes]

Terrible.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah. But even after this happened, CARE K A R E. Not gonna call them CARE because they're actually a broadcast station. That's call letters, right?

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right. Dave, That's a call sign.

[Dave Buettner]

How much you want to bet that their local promos are 11 cares?

[Joe Kerrigan]

It might be.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah.

[Maria Vermazes]

Of course.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Of course.

[Dave Buettner]

Right.

[Joe Kerrigan]

We can't do that with our h. With our amateur radio call signs, though.

[Dave Buettner]

No.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Yeah. Kare discovered that Brilliant Minds continued to bill Medicare for additional house hunting services that they probably never provide. And there's one author that says in one of Rachel's entries in the system, I visited these properties. I went in person on Rachel's behalf because these two options were strong matches with her housing criteria. It's a scam. It's a total scam, says Rachel. Rachel's Medicaid billing showed that another company, LEO Human Services, which is one of the companies in the list above, also billed the HSS program. And Rachel says, I never even interacted with those people. So they're sharing information. They're billing the government back for these services that they're not providing. And then they're telling their buddies, which probably all just one organization, right, that they've stood up all these different. These different companies, and then now they're passing the information. Hey, I just billed Medicaid for $2,000 for Rachel over here. Pass it off to Leo. Leo will do it for another $2,000, and we could pass it off to the next guy, and everybody makes bank. So, yeah, this is a huge problem. In 2025, Minnesota passed a new law that has more stringent requirements on it. But it's amazing to me that within one year of passing a law, there's already so much fraud going on in this system that it's four times, almost 10 times actually, what you'd expect to pay.

[Maria Vermazes]

Well, it feels like anytime there's a new program, the scams Come up immediately. But the COVID ppp, those funds, how many of those, how much fraud happened there?

[Joe Kerrigan]

Tons.

[Maria Vermazes]

And I think they were still chasing it down. They're still chasing it down now, five years later.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Oh yeah.

[Maria Vermazes]

The whole time you were describing this, that's what I was thinking of. Yeah, go ahead.

[Joe Kerrigan]

That's a good point. I was saying that hopefully those people all get prison time. You know, these are taxes.

[Maria Vermazes]

I think a lot of people got away with it.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I think you're right. I think you're right and that's unfortunate. I have heard of people getting, facing serious ramifications for the PPP loans that they weren't entitled to. On the other side of this, there's the issue of like with the PPP loans, there was a time sensitive issue there. Now with this law, I don't know that there is a time sensitive issue for $40,000 in services being billed. I don't buy that. Maybe there's a time sensitive issue. Okay, so this person needs to pay rent this month. What's their rent? The rent is not $40,000. It isn't. There's no way.

[Dave Buettner]

Right.

[Maria Vermazes]

When you have housing involved though, I imagine I'm just, I'm thinking, I mean obviously fraud is bad. Let's put that out there. I'm thinking if I was trying to administrate a program like this where it's like, hey, this is giving money for people who need help getting housing when housing is always so hard to come by. Do we want to make this move as slowly as possible, which means it could be years before somebody gets housing help or do we want to sort of hand it out first and then retract it later if fraud has happened, Rather err on the side of helping somebody than you know, a little, little more than a little less. I'm sure there's a lot of debate there, honestly, but I imagine that might be part of the struggle is like you have to act in a timely way. Right?

[Joe Kerrigan]

That is absolutely part of the problem.

[Dave Buettner]

I, I was, while you were talking, I was look trying to find some statistics here to try to figure out because every program is going to have a certain amount of fraud. Fraud, just like every store is going to have a certain amount of shoplifting or damaged goods or those kinds of things. And the charts that I'm seeing here say that most public services have a built in tolerance for between 1 and 3% fraud as acceptable risk. But when rates get above about 5%, that is when internal audits are usually triggered or policy reform or things like that. But seems like under 10% is typical for these sorts of things.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Dave Buettner]

And I think Maria makes an excellent point. You know, how much fraud do you accept in exchange for not having too much friction for the people to get the services they need? And that's not always an easy answer.

[Joe Kerrigan]

That is an excellent.

[Maria Vermazes]

Especially when you're talking about homelessness. Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I mean. Cause that will be a devastating impact to somebody. But.

[Maria Vermazes]

Yeah. And you're talking, especially in the north, when it gets cold, people could die, you know, with exposure. I mean, it's like this can be life or death.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah, yeah. So it's good that they're going after the fraudsters and not the people who are being, you know, falsely. Whose names are being put in to falsely claim these funds.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right, Yeah. I think that's an important distinction. You know, these people are, in their own right. Victims. First off, they've got some kind of health malady. And I'm going to go on. I've said this a lot of times in this country. We have to stop treating addiction like it's a morality issue. It's got to be treated like a healthcare issue. It really does. And you know, when somebody is addicted to a substance that is physically addictive, they just. They can't just stop. It may kill them. Doing that may kill them. So there has to be treatment options for these people. So I don't have a problem with treating people who are dealing with some kind of substance abuse issue. But at the same point in time, I think that the people who are caught for these. I think the punishment for people who have defrauded this program should be severe. Very severe.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah, I'm for that. All right, well, again, we'll have a link to that story in the show notes. Joe, Maria, it is time to move on to our catch of the day.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Dave, our catch of the day comes from the scam subreddit.

[Dave Buettner]

So this is someone who had an ongoing, let's call it a relationship with a scammer. And they wrote up a description of this. They said a patient scammer finally asked me for money after five months of text and calls. Claims that they want to send me $700,000 profit from selling property because his funds are frozen as part of an inheritance lawsuit. So we've certainly heard of those before. Right?

[Joe Kerrigan]

Absolutely.

[Dave Buettner]

Sent me a suspicious video of a safe.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Look at all this money in here.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah. Just inside this safe.

[Maria Vermazes]

Interior or exterior? Just.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Dave Buettner]

I'm gonna go with exterior.

[Maria Vermazes]

Right.

[Dave Buettner]

I'm just gonna, you know, send me A photo of Fort Knox and so this could all be yours. And then a tracking number from a shipper with misspellings. Of course. The package never came. Then he called and sent me a screenshot from the shipper and saying they needed €15,000 for customs. I already knew this was a scam. As soon as they wanted to send me a safe. Doesn't seem like the most efficient object to send because safes are heavy.

[Maria Vermazes]

Yeah, I was gonna say international shipping weight kind of a thing. Yeah. Safe.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah, he says. I'm disappointed I became emotionally invested in a fake, but at least I never gave them money or account numbers.

[Joe Kerrigan]

The.

[Dave Buettner]

So this message reads, and it says, Dear Ms. Nicole, we hope this message finds you well. We're writing to inform you that your shipment from Berlin, Germany to Cleveland, Ohio, usa, has arrived and is currently undergoing customs clearance at the US port of entry. As part of the clearance process, US Customs has assessed a total of €15,000 in duties and associated handling fees.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Hold on right there. Why is U.S. customs accepting payment in euros?

[Dave Buettner]

Excellent question.

[Maria Vermazes]

Don't ask. Don't ask questions. Don't ask questions.

[Dave Buettner]

Joe, do you want the $700,000 or not? I want the $700,000. Well, and stop asking so many questions. To avoid any delays or additional storage charges, we kindly request that this amount be remitted at your earliest convenience. If you have any questions regarding the payment or require assistance with the process, please don't hesitate to contact our team directly. We appreciate your prompt attention to this matter and thank you for choosing Netlight Shipping. And it's warm regards, Netlight Shipping GmbH, which is German for incorporated, right? I think so, yeah, something like that.

[Maria Vermazes]

Yes.

[Dave Buettner]

It's a stamp for German companies customer service department. So you know there's obviously a chunkbox.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Scam with extra steps.

[Dave Buettner]

Yes, exactly. I like that. In this request for the €15,000, they snuck in this thing about avoiding any delays or additional storage charges. So. Right. Act now, it's going to cost you even more money.

[Joe Kerrigan]

The artificial time horizon.

[Dave Buettner]

That's right.

[Joe Kerrigan]

And they let you fill that in. Right, Right. They don't define it for you. They let you worry about that.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah, yeah. So 700.

[Maria Vermazes]

The attention to detail though is interesting. Like the. The phone number is definitely a German area country code. I. I wonder if we put. Not that we should or would, but I wonder if the other Maria might.

[Joe Kerrigan]

In here, give him a call.

[Dave Buettner]

I might as well know. Maria plays pretty fast and loose with the link. I mean, I don't want to say, but word around town Maria, is that you're pretty fast and loose with the links.

[Maria Vermazes]

I just love putting my hand on that. Hot. Over.

[Dave Buettner]

There you go.

[Maria Vermazes]

Yeah.

[Dave Buettner]

Right.

[Maria Vermazes]

The attention to detail throughout this, like, everything looks convincingly like it should be from or to Germany. So a lot of times it's more messy than that. But this actually looks consistent there. Except for the, oh, Cleveland, Ohio, USA. €15,000 thing that Joe picked up on immediately.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah. But imagine five months of text messages and calls between this person and the scammer and it finally got to this point for them to cut it off.

[Maria Vermazes]

Yeah, I'm glad they couldn't. They weren't leading them on. They were actually taken for those five months, sounds like so.

[Dave Buettner]

That's right. It says, I'm disappointed. I became emotionally invested in a fake. So this was partially a romance scam.

[Joe Kerrigan]

Right. But the. Probably the interesting part is that the trigger that made her think it was a scam was the desire to send a safe. Physically send a safe.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah.

[Joe Kerrigan]

That's how she knew it was a scam, which is good. Good that she picked up on it. You know, she got off easy.

[Dave Buettner]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All right, well, we would love to hear from you. If there's something you'd like us to consider for the show, you can email us. It's hackinghumans2k.com thank you. To ThreatLocker, the powerful zero trust enterprise solution that stops ransomware in its tracks. For sponsoring hacking humans, visit threatlocker.com and that is Hacking Humans. Brought to you by N2K CyberWire. We'd love to hear from you. We're conducting our annual audience survey to learn more about our listeners. We're collecting your insights through the end the of. Of August. There's a link in the show. Notes. Please do take a moment and check them out. This episode is produced by Liz Stokes. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ibin. We're mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester. Peter Kilpe is our publisher. I'm Dave Bittner.

[Joe Kerrigan]

I'm Joe Kerrigan.

[Maria Vermazes]

And I'm Maria Vermazes.

[Dave Buettner]

Thanks for listening.