Emotions, Mental Health, and Vision Loss

Summary

Hadley Presents: A Conversation with the Experts
Episode: Emotions, Mental Health, and Vision Loss
Release Date: October 24, 2024

Host: Ricky Enger
Guests: Dr. Ann Wagner (Clinical Psychologist) and Mark Arneson

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of Hadley Presents, host Ricky Enger delves into the intricate relationship between emotions, mental health, and vision loss. Joining Ricky are two esteemed guests: Dr. Ann Wagner, a board-certified clinical psychologist with extensive experience in trauma and PTSD, and Mark Arneson, a dedicated advocate for individuals navigating life with vision loss. The conversation explores how understanding and connecting with our emotions can pave the way for healing and transformation amidst the challenges of vision impairment.

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Guests' Backgrounds

Dr. Ann Wagner begins by sharing her personal journey with vision loss. Diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa (RP) due to the autosomal dominant PRPF3 gene, Dr. Wagner has witnessed the progressive nature of this condition firsthand. Growing up in a supportive "blind culture," she emphasizes the importance of a nurturing environment:

"Growing up in this kind of blind culture meant I had support. I had people who understood what I was going through, and the sighted people in our lives kind of knew what we needed and what we didn't need."
[01:15]

Professionally, Dr. Wagner served for 26 years at the Minneapolis VA Healthcare System, specializing in trauma and PTSD before retiring. Despite her retirement, she remains active through consulting and speaking engagements focused on mental health and vision loss.

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Complex Grief and Vision Loss

The discussion transitions to the concept of complex grief, a term Dr. Wagner elaborates on in relation to progressive medical conditions like vision loss. She explains that each incremental loss—be it peripheral vision or acuity—can lead to new forms of grief as individuals grapple with diminishing independence and changing daily activities:

"In each loss of independent functioning or an activity of daily living becoming more challenging, there's going to be grief attached to, to each of those with different meanings attached."
[04:12]

Dr. Wagner highlights that this grief is multifaceted, involving not just the loss of physical abilities but also the emotional toll of adapting to new realities.

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Understanding Emotions in Vision Loss

Mark Arneson brings attention to the emotional challenges that often surpass the physical hurdles associated with vision loss. He prompts Dr. Wagner to discuss what our emotions signify and the lessons they impart:

"Do you mind sharing a little bit about, like what do our emotions tell us? And is there something that we can learn from those emotions?"
[06:50]

Dr. Wagner responds by asserting that emotions are gateways to our core values and what we truly hold dear. She emphasizes that emotions, even painful ones, provide crucial insights into our identity and priorities:

"Emotions actually tell us who we are at our core and what matters to us."
[06:50]

Using a personal anecdote about her grandson, Dr. Wagner illustrates how emotions like helplessness and grief reveal deep-seated values and attachments:

"So the helplessness is telling me I can't control the fact that in this moment I can't see my grandson's face. But then helplessness always tells us a second truth, that we care about something."
[08:00]

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The Importance of Connectedness and Village Moments

The conversation shifts to the significance of connectedness and what Dr. Wagner terms "village moments." These moments represent deep, authentic connections where individuals feel seen, heard, and understood without judgment:

"When two people show up being able to share from this deep, real four self, authentic place, I call that village moments. And it's where healing can happen and transformation can happen."
[17:04]

Dr. Wagner references the Social Buffering Theory, which posits that robust social support can mitigate the negative effects of stress and trauma. She underscores the detrimental impact of profound loneliness on mental health, especially for those with vision loss:

"When we have adequate social support... it can buffer the negative effects of stressors in our lives, even trauma level."
[17:04]

Mark echoes this sentiment, sharing stories of individuals who, despite having families, feel isolated due to the unique challenges of vision loss. He highlights the pivotal role of peer support programs in bridging this gap.

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Coping with Identity Changes and Embracing Emotions

Addressing the formation of identity amidst vision loss, Dr. Wagner discusses the evolution from identifying primarily with her blindness to embracing her broader self. She draws from narrative therapy, emphasizing that disabilities or limitations are external to one's identity:

"I am not the blindness. I am Ann. But our identities are really more about what do you stand for, what matters to you."
[25:58]

Dr. Wagner introduces the concept of personal protective patterns, whimsically named "Melvin," to recognize and address behaviors that distance her from her core emotions. This technique aids in distinguishing between valued activities and self-protective mechanisms:

"But I name all my protective patterns. Melvin."
[28:48]

She advises listeners to introspectively assess whether their actions align with their values or are merely protective responses to emotional discomfort.

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Practical Advice and Personal Stories

Throughout the episode, Dr. Wagner interweaves personal stories that humanize the theoretical concepts discussed. From her cherished memories of her mother "brailing" her grandchildren's faces to her ongoing relationship with her nearly two-year-old grandson, these narratives underscore the profound interplay between emotions and daily experiences:

"So I have a grandson who is almost two years old. From the time of his birth till today, when I hold him, I say, I'm gonna braille your face."
[14:57]

Mark Arneson shares uplifting feedback from Hadley's peer-to-peer program participants, illustrating the tangible benefits of connectedness and mutual understanding:

"This was the missing piece for me."
[24:39]

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Conclusion

As the episode draws to a close, both guests emphasize the growing need for support systems in the face of increasing vision loss prevalence. Dr. Wagner advocates for expanding community programs and resources to ensure that no individual feels isolated in their journey. Mark Arneson expresses deep gratitude for the invaluable insights shared by Dr. Wagner and the ongoing positive impact of Hadley's initiatives.

"And so we were able to connect her in our peer to peer program with somebody who had similar eye condition and similar life experiences... she's like, I've never felt so alone because of my vision loss."
[24:39]

The episode serves as a poignant reminder of the resilience of the human spirit and the transformative power of understanding and embracing our emotional landscapes.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Emotions actually tell us who we are at our core and what matters to us."
  — Dr. Ann Wagner [06:50]

• "I am not the blindness. I am Ann."
  — Dr. Ann Wagner [25:58]

• "This was the missing piece for me."
  — Peer Program Participant [24:39]

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For more discussions on vision loss and mental health, tune into future episodes of Hadley Presents: A Conversation with the Experts. Share your thoughts or suggest topics by contacting Hadley at [e-mail] or calling [phone].

Transcript

[Ricky Enger]

With vision loss, we experience a wide range of emotions. In this episode, clinical psychologist Dr. Ann Wagner and Hadley's Mark Arneson join us to share how learning from and connecting with our emotions can bring about healing and transformation. I'm Ricky Enger, and this is Hadley Presents.

[Mark Arneson]

Welcome to Hadley Presents. Dr. Ann Wagner. Thank you so much for joining us today on the show.

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

I'm glad to be here.

[Mark Arneson]

So I've been eagerly counting down the days for this episode. I am. I'm really excited about this conversation, even some of the questions that we came up with. I'm really excited to have this talk. And honestly, I know it's not always easy or. And I'm sure in your experience, you come across this. It's not always easy or even comfortable, you know, to talk about some of the difficult emotions that can come with vision loss and the importance of connecting with others. You know, I can't imagine it's always easy or comfortable, but I think it's such an important conversation to have. So I'm grateful to be here on the show with you today.

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

Thank you.

[Mark Arneson]

So Dr. Wagner and I have some questions for you that I was hoping we could run through. But before we get to those, do you mind just sharing a little bit about yourself?

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

Yeah. I am legally blind due to retinitis pigmentosa. It's a autosomal dominant form. And I had genetic testing. It's PRPF3, which means if you have this particular gene type, you have the symptoms, and any children you have will have a 50, 50 chance of inheriting the eye disease. So my grandpa had five kids. Three of them inherited the rp, and one of those was my mom. My mom and dad had five children, and four of us inherited the rp. So I kind of grew up in a blind culture where everybody understood that retina pigmentosa primarily involves progressive loss of the peripheral vision and night vision. So we have worsening tunnel vision, worsening night blindness. And in childhood is when the night blindness is usually quite evident and then the acuity is affected more in our later teens or early 20s. So my mom, her vision met the standards for legal blindness when she was 16 due to the severity of the tunnel vision, and I was 18 when my vision loss met those requirements. But growing up in this kind of blind culture meant I had support. I had people who understood what I was going through, and the sighted people in our lives kind of knew what we needed and what we didn't need. And so I know how lucky I am for that, and I have a lot of Gratitude. Currently my vision is quite impaired. I have end stage complications that would take a while to explain, but I'm pretty blind. I have some light vision left and with ideal lighting conditions and contrast, I can still make out some shapes. But that's my vision is at now. But professionally, I am a board certified clinical psychologist and I worked 26 years at the Minneapolis VA Healthcare System on the PTSD clinical team. And so in the field I'm considered a trauma specialist, but everyone on our team was also considered a generalist. I loved my work at the va. I am now retired. But even though I'm retired, I'm still required to make a disclaimer that the views I express today are my own in my role as a citizen psychologist. The views do not represent any official views of the federal government or the Department of Veterans Affairs. I just felt I needed to say that. But even though I'm retired, I'm still professionally active with some consulting work and invited guests speaking, particularly on topics related to mental health and vision loss.

[Mark Arneson]

You know, speaking of that, I have had a chance to hear you speak a few different times and I've listened to some of the conversations that you've had. And in some of your presentations you talk about this concept of complex grief. And I was wondering, just to get started, do you mind sharing with me a little bit about what that means and maybe how it relates to vision loss?

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

Yeah. So I think complex grief can resonate with a lot of people experiencing any kind of progressive medical condition where each incremental change in the condition can mean it affects different areas of functioning. So particularly with progressive vision loss, every degree of peripheral vision or loss of acuity can potentially result in additional losses of independent functioning. And so in each loss of independent functioning or an activity of daily living becoming more challenging, there's going to be grief attached to, to each of those with different meanings attached. And so it's by no means simple. It is quite complex. And there's a nuance in there that I don't think a lot of people are aware of. But whenever we have to kind of pause and do some problem solving to do something differently, to try to figure out ways, if we learn new blind skills, is there a way we can continue to do something independently? Or the time it takes to, to utilize resources or connect to supports who still engage in activities, we value that time and our relationship through time can become an area of grief in the sense that I know how I would most want to spend my time, and yet to adapt and to move forward I'm going to have to dedicate some time to the problem solving and to figuring things out. And so there's a loss there, a loss of maybe we call it the freedom of how we want to use our time. And those are the things we do to adapt. And we make all sorts of sacrifices in life to do things that are important, that may not be our preferred, but it's part of that complex grief process.

[Mark Arneson]

It's fascinating. So I think you talked about some of the different challenges that can come with vision loss, and I know the day to day challenges. I've heard a lot of folks talking about trying to discover new ways to do things that have now become more challenging, challenging. But I've also heard a lot of people that I've talked to share that, you know, the emotional challenges that come with vision loss can be even more difficult sometimes than the, the physical or practical challenges that come with vision loss. And you know, I, I know emotions, we, we all have them, right? Some are, some are pleasant, some are not pleasant at all. But I'm curious, do you mind sharing a little bit about, like what do our emotions tell us? And is there something that we can, we can learn from those emotions?

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

Yeah, in fact, they tell us a lot. They actually tell us who we are at our core and what matters to us. There's a principle that's shared by a couple of different therapy models and it's this principle or idea that emotions only show up to tell us what we value, what we hold dear, what matters to us. The problem is that the more painful emotions we've been exposed to programming and messages and judgments that somehow we're not supposed to feel what we feel unless we're presenting as happy. And so we've learned all sorts of avoidance patterns or self protective patterns that kind of distance us from our own core emotions when actually they are so important to connect to and to understand. And so to illustrate, I use this idea every day myself and I used it in almost every course of therapy. This foundational principle of connecting to our core emotions to listen to what they're telling us and to process them in kind of what a naturally healing way. So I like to share stories in my examples of how things work, if that's okay.

[Mark Arneson]

Great, I'd love that. Yes.

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

Yay. Good. So I have a grandson who is almost 2 years old. And when I connect to this truth that I'm not able to see his face, then a couple of emotions show up, helplessness and grief. And so when I think about what are These emotions telling me about what I care about. To start with, the helplessness is a very important emotion. It's probably the one we struggle with the most. It's the one that shows up when we wish we could control something that we really can't. So it tells us two truths. First, it tells us the truth about the limits of our control. And actually, we only have control over one thing in life. And that's what we choose to do in this one moment right now. That's it. We don't have any control. If controllability was a scale, we say we have zero control over the past because we don't have a time machine, or the future because we don't have a time machine. We have zero control over what other people say, what they do, what they feel or what they believe. We actually have no direct control. So really we have no control over anything except what we do in this one moment. And so the helplessness is telling me I can't control the fact that in this moment I can't see my grandson face. But then helplessness always tells us a second truth, that we care about something. So it's trying to help us connect to that core deep sense of where our most important values are. Otherwise it doesn't even show up if it's not something we care about that we can't control. So it's telling me that I care about something. So if we were to give a name to a person who always told us the truth and always also try to tell us what matters to us, we might call that person a friend. And yet we have been taught to struggle with helplessness. It shows up hundreds of times every day because of the things we can't control. And yet we've been taught to struggle with it and to keep trying to control things we can't. And that's wasted energy and can create suffering. And that helplessness rarely shows up alone. It almost always is going to show up with other emotions that will help with that second piece of what is it that I care about? So grief shows up in this example where I can't see my grandson's face. And the grief, grief emotions show up to tell us that we are holding an attachment. We form attachments to people, to things and to ideas. We have many attachments to ideas. Our preferred ideas or wantings we might call hopes. We might give them different names, but I clearly have an attachment to this idea of being able to see my grandson's face. And so when life gives us information in our actual experience and Some truths show up that say, this idea that you're attached to is not going to happen. Then we have to detach from that attachment and let that idea go. And that's grief, Grief and loss. And depending on how deep or meaningful that attachment is, again, whether it's to a person, to a thing, or to an idea, the level of pain of that grief could be higher or lower. So grief is telling us we are. When we're actually feeling it and allowing it to flow like waves. It means we are connecting to truth. We're not in denial, and that's important. So for the helplessness and grief are showing up. When I connect to this. This idea and this truth, I can't see my grandson's face, and I wish I could. So I'm going to. I'm going to go through the steps of connecting. How are these emotions telling me what I care about? So I'll ask myself, why? Why does that matter to me? And it's like. And then I'll connect to this other idea. Well, I don't want to miss a single nuance of my experience with him. And then I'll ask, well, why is that important to me? And then I can feel when I'm connecting to the deep core core values. What I stand for is deep, enduring, loving relationships with the people I love. And for all of those, I wouldn't want to miss nuances. But when I connect to that deeper core values, openings always happen because there are going to be other ideas that I can connect to then for how can I act on that core value? Even if this one idea cannot be acted on, when I connect to that, often, memories or ideas from other people in my life might show up that were meaningful to me. And in this example, when I connect to being a loving person, I have memories of my mom. And my mom died in 2017 from pancreatic cancer. But she was an incredible role model in my life. You know, we grew up on a farm, and she worked hard on that farm, just like us, even though she was blind. So my mom, by the time her grandchildren started showing up, she couldn't see their faces. And so from the days they were born, whenever she'd be holding them or many times, she would say, I'm going to Braille your face. And she would feel their faces. And then as they were growing up, she'd say, been a while. I'm going to Braille your face to see how you're changing. And they just grew up knowing grandma was going to braille their faces. So when my nieces were in their teens, for some reason, when they had school dances or other events where they were going to dress up, they like to bring their, their makeup and clothes to my parents house to get ready there. And I'd be visiting sometimes and my nieces would hog the back bedroom and the bathroom until they're ready. And then they'd come out all, all beautiful in their dresses and they'd say, grandma, we're ready for you to braille us. And the room would. The room would just become filled with their giggles and laughter and chatter and my mom's oohs and ah as she brailed their faces, gently touched their hairdos, felt the bows or ruffles. Whatever their dresses were, she'd asked them to describe the colors and. And the room would just be filled with joy and delight and it didn't matter one bit that she couldn't see them. Those memories I connect to.

[Mark Arneson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

So I have a grandson who is almost two years old. From the time of his birth till today, when I hold him, I say, I'm gonna braille your face. And I touch his sweet face and his chubby cheeks and, and feel his hair and his little hands and feet. And I am just filled with so many emotions. And again, emotions show up to tell us what we care about. Yes, there's the grief and loss of not being able to see his face, but also missing my mom. But I understand what that emotion is telling me and I respect it. And I even have compassion for that emotion because it's affirming who I am. But I also feel such gratitude for having such a loving mom. And I feel closer to her in those moments. So every emotion tells us very important information if we can open to it and learn our emotional world better.

[Mark Arneson]

Those are wonderful stories, Ann. I just. I so appreciate you sharing those stories and just the importance of understanding how our emotions show us what's meaningful to us. I imagine though it seems like you've really developed a skill to be able to step back and recognize the importance of this emotion and I think you said even have compassion for it at affirming who you are. I imagine for a lot of folks though, it's tough to step back from these really difficult and painful emotions like helplessness and grief or sadness or anger and kind of look at it in the same way that you're able to do that. And I imagine sometimes getting other people to help you kind of understand what those emotions are telling you could be really important as well. Whether that's a close Friend or professional or something like that. But I've heard you talk about this concept or ideas of village moments and connectedness and the importance of relationships. Do you mind sharing a little bit more about the idea of village moments and why they're important, particularly for folks living with vision loss?

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

Yeah. So I have this idea that in the very early years of humanity, our ancestors were probably all in villages and where they felt seen and known and secure, with people knowing what things came easily for us or what things were more challenging. And when there was something weighing heavy on us, we had people to listen and be there. And we are still born as social creatures. Of course we need a sense of belongingness. There's a theory from the 70s called the Social buffering theory. At least I think it was the 70s, that when we have adequate social support, and by that I mean emotional support, it can buffer the negative effects of stressors in our lives, even trauma level. And. But a lot of people think the support that's needed is like advice or things like that. That's not really what I'm talking about. We need to feel a sense of safety and security in our sharings of our deeper emotional pain or even moments of joy. Sometimes we just feel like, oh, I want to share this story with someone and. Because it gives us that sense of belongingness.

[Mark Arneson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

So when two people show up being able to share from this deep, real four self, authentic place, I call that village moments. And it's where healing can happen and transformation can happen. And if we don't have people in our lives that we can feel that level of security or even within ourselves, if we've had so much programming that we just don't feel safe to open up to that deeper pain within ourselves than finding a professional. But I'd like to share this idea by Diana Fosha. She developed accelerated experiential dynamic psychotherapy. In some of her writings, she talks about how really the core of human suffering is profound loneliness. When we do experience something really painful and we don't feel that sense of security and safety that we can share and not feel judged or have somebody still feel distant from us because they're in their head thinking of advice to give us instead of just really being with us, we are going to learn all sorts of ways to protect from the feeling of the painful emotion. And we're going to feel that deep loneliness of feeling. So when you feel so alone with that kind of pain, it's, it's, it's really painful. So I have many veterans over the Years talk about when we're processing trauma memories or other healing work that they wanted to do in the therapy. And I would share kind of words from other veterans to see if they resonated with them. I'd say some people say, yes, there's incredible pain related to the trauma memory itself. But what's even more painful is feeling alone with it. And I would have veterans start to cry at that point and they're like, yeah, I connect to what those other veterans were saying.

[Mark Arneson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

And so this profound loneliness, it's important to validate those experiences and it's so important to feel heard. If we don't have people in our lives that we can feel that level of safety and security to share and trust that we won't be judged or that they're going to just give us advice that we're not asking for, then trying to find a therapist is highly recommended. I like to help with stigma. It's decreasing, I think, every year, the stigma against.

[Mark Arneson]

I agree.

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

Seeking mental health care. It's getting better and better and better because so many people know it's healthy. It's like, you're going to exercise for your health. You can seek therapy for your health.

[Mark Arneson]

Right.

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

I'm very open that I sought therapy. You know, people with vision loss are at higher risk, frank size and depression. And I had more of the anxiety side to things here. So I completed a course of therapy for anxiety. And it was incredibly helpful and I felt heard and understood. And that's so important.

[Mark Arneson]

Yeah. And I love the concept of village moments, this connectedness. So that's kind of what we were made for, I think, is what I'm hearing you say as well. Yeah, we are. We were made for relationships and connection. You know, a lot of the folks that find us here at Hadley are. Are new to vision loss. Like, they're kind of new to this whole way of life. Can you talk a little bit about how that might even have more of effect on this, these feelings of loneliness or isolation?

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

Yeah. Well, 10 to 20% of retinitis pigmentosa gene types but are recessive, which means there isn't going to be another person in their family. Probably. Like, I had this incredible blessing of growing up in a blind culture, but most people are alone. They don't have role models. They don't know anybody else experiencing vision loss. And that. That would feel so, so lonely and kind of scary. And that's why resources and connecting to communities that support people with vision loss is just so important. I wouldn't want anybody to go through this alone. That would be so overwhelming. So that's why I loved hearing about Hadley helped in your peer to peer program, connecting people one on one so they can do their deeper sharings or the all the different things you're doing. Foundation fighting blindness. It also has, like, each state has its own chapter and communities of support are happening through that. There are resources out there, and state services for the blind or the vocational rehabilitation programs in most states have, you know, vision rehab rehabilitation services that can also help with the adjustment by experts who can help by. So that can help people feel a little less alone and with people who understand.

[Mark Arneson]

Yeah. And part of my job is just getting to know folks and spending some time hearing their story. And when I hear people talk about, like, I don't know anybody else who's visually impaired, I'm kind of in this by myself. You know, it just makes me want to feel like we're here, you know, and we want to connect you with somebody. And I'm glad you mentioned our peer to peer program. One of the women that I met, she shared that, you know, she lives with her husband in the same house together, and she has grown children that come and visit quite frequently and grandkids that are kind of running around the room. And, you know, she said, with all these people in my life, you know, everything that's going on, she's like, I've never felt so alone because of my vision loss. I don't feel like I have somebody to talk to about it. She could just spend time with somebody who understands what I'm going through. It's like, I think that would make all the difference. And so we were able to connect her in our peer to peer program with somebody who had similar eye condition and similar life experiences. And she said, this was the missing piece for me, which is just so fulfilling to hear comments like that.

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

Yeah. And she was listening our core selves. It's a theory, but I absolutely believe it's true. We all have an adaptive energy that we can connect to or wants us to connect to it to help adjust and cope. It's part of resiliency. And she was listening to her core self saying, if I just had somebody I could talk to who might understand, he knew what she needed, what feels healthy and healing and what doesn't. That's so lovely. And so more programs. I just hope more and more programs can find ways to help because the anticipated rates of people of vision loss are growing as people live longer. And there's a. There's a lot of People experiencing vision loss or who will.

[Mark Arneson]

That's right. You know, and I imagine so, you know, all these complex, this complex grief you talk about, all these emotions that can just kind of overwhelm us sometimes. And with, you know, these challenges that come with vision loss, I imagine it can sometimes consume you, even to the point where you feel like, okay, this, this is who I am now. You know, it forms. Starts to form your identity. Have you felt that way yourself? And what would you offer to folks who might. Might be feeling that way as well?

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

Yeah, it's such a good question. When I started wanting to date, I would lead with, by the way, you know, at that point, I wasn't using my white cane yet. You couldn't tell by looking at me.

[Mark Arneson]

Sure.

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

I would let people know, hey, I'm losing my vision. And I led with that as if that was my identity, because I wanted them to have a chance to say, oh, I don't want to. I don't want that. To be with somebody, you know, with blindness in my life. And yet, because of my own personal growth and work and these concepts I learned from my professional work, I absolutely no longer feel like I have that internalized self esteem as somehow being less than being surrounded by such a loving partner who treats me as an equal and just lovely friends and of course my family and. But what's helped me in particular, it's this principle from narrative therapy about the idea of how problems are external to who we are. To recognize that the blindness, it's an experience I'm having, it's separate from me, the whole person who I am, and it may walk alongside me and it's going to have its effects. And each of those effects are an experience. They're not who I am. So I will refer to blindness, moments of humor and hilarity because they certainly help create as well as, of course, moments of grief and sorrow and other emotions of frustration. But I am not the blindness. I am. I'm Ann. But our identities are really more about what do you stand for, what matters to you? And we can live those values in many, many different ways. The disabilities or the limitations, whatever word we choose to use to guide bodily changes or losses of vision, those are just companions that maybe we don't, we didn't want in our lives, but we can actually potentially at least respect and appreciate that they're external to us. And we can give them our own name. But I know mine. I'll be free in my transparency. I. I tend to fret. I'm a bit of A worrier. And, and that was part of, so staying in my head with the worry thoughts of what if this or what if that. The what ifs kind of keep me in my head and it is a form of distancing from my core emotions. So I name my patterns. I've recognized when that's showing up that there's a need for me to slow down and think about what is the core emotion really that I'm trying to avoid here and to learn to be with it. But I name all my protective patterns. Melvin.

[Mark Arneson]

Melvin.

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

Melvin. Yeah. So that's one of my Melvins. And I, I, no offense to anybody named Melvin, it's a fine name. I just, it just helps me smile and it helps me relate to the patterns in a completely non judgmental way. I, these patterns were programmed. None of us are to blame. We've all been taugh these messages to try to avoid what we feel. So that's one of my Melvins. And you know, overthinking, you know, there's, there's a lot of things, but those are my, I need my Melvins. And what I encourage people in there looking at the patterns of things they're doing is just ask is this a valued activity? Is it meaningful to me? Is it, is it feeling helpful in some way that feels healthy or is it potentially one of those self protective patterns? Because I'm not feeling like I can safely or securely connect to what's going on deeper and start to consider ways to maybe connect to your emotions or take take a risk to share with somebody and see how it goes. And I will tell people and it's what I do is I will ask Eric, for example, my husband, when I'm feeling the need to just feel heard. I'll set the frame in advance. Let's say there's something kind of weighing on me that feels kind of heavy and I want to share it. And I really just need you to listen and just love me, just care for me. I'm not asking for any kind of advice. So letting people know that up front helps a lot.

[Mark Arneson]

Great idea.

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

And I'll validate. When somebody does give advice, you know, I know they're trying to be helpful because they care about me. That action is quite valued for people giving it. But they may not just under, they just don't understand in the moment what I really need or they're feeling so uncomfortable with my distress that they want to ease it. So their minds are giving them an idea and they become very attached to that idea. Like oh, if they just do this, this, and this. Then Ann won't feel this distress. So I'm going to give her this idea because, you know, so we get attached to our own ideas. Like, oh, if somebody just does this, they'll feel better because we care and we want that. But look what's happening. We're getting attached to an idea and we're putting at the foot of somebody else without necessarily checking in. Is that what they're wanting or needing from us? You know, and it happened so fast and so subtly that I just encourage people to check in with each other and what is it you're needing or, you know, hey, I'm really going to try to work on being just a listener. And even though my mind may give me ideas to give advice, I'm going to try to just observe that chatter and still show up in a real way with the people I love. And I, again, I just, when I heard about your approach with that help desk and the peer to peer, and I just, my core just felt this warmth and respect for, for you and having helped staff because you're, you're totally like, you're all psychodynamic therapists. Like, you know, the importance of the belongingness and the just being with is actually healing and it's, it's doing something so important.

[Mark Arneson]

Right. Well, and I just, I want to thank you so much for just spending this time with me here today. I know when we put this on the calendar, I was eagerly anticipating it and it was well worth the wait. Such a wonderful conversation. I feel like we could keep talking all day too, but maybe you'd be willing to join us on another, another episode down the road here in the future.

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

Absolutely.

[Mark Arneson]

Yeah. I just wanted, I mean, your personal stories, I just appreciate you being so open and just sharing those and then your professional insights, I think are so helpful. So again, just thank you. Thank you so much for this conversation today. I really appreciate it.

[Dr. Ann Wagner]

You're welcome. Thank you.

[Ricky Enger]

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