A (3:59)

So when you were working with the cane, for some people, they feel like it's a natural thing for them. Some people are a bit resistant to it and then get accustomed to it. And for some people, you make the decision to do it, but it doesn't feel. Feel right for whatever reason. So is that kind of what led you to think maybe a dog is better, maybe a dog is different? What played into that decision to look into getting your guide dog?

B (4:33)

Well, I noticed that with the cane, I can navigate, I can learn streets and get to places slowly. I wasn't so great at it, but it was work, it wasn't fun. I wasn't enjoying the walk. I wasn't enjoying the process. So I stopped doing it as much. I became very reticent about going out on walks. And I said, well, this is a time to get a new companion. For me, going out with a dog, walking out with Vince is like. Like a teenager getting a driver's license. All of a sudden, that's the way I could actually describe it. All of a sudden, I have all this freedom to just go out and explore and have fun and enjoy the process. For me, it's liberating.

A (5:27)

Gosh, I just love to. To hear that. To go from not enjoying walking at all and feeling like you're sort of stuck to now you. You have this freedom. Judy, I know it's been a little longer for you because you're on your third dog, but if you can think back to when you were considering getting your first one, what played into that decision for you? What wasn't working about your current situation, that you're like, you know, maybe it's time to do something different.

C (6:01)

Well, with me, you know, I had a longer time using my cane as a lot of People can imagine having a guide dog is another responsibility. And for me, having small children and then adding a guide dog into the mix was just more than I can imagine taking on. And plus, I was fairly new to vision loss. I mean, I'd had RP for years, but I just crossed over to where I could navigate easily on my own. So when we moved to Pennsylvania, I realized that I was going to have to do something or else I was only going to be able to walk up and down my quiet little street. So I learned to use my can and my daughters, and I walked all over State College, Pennsylvania, and it was lovely. And as time progressed, it's like, well, you know, I'm afraid I trust my vision more than I would trust my dog, which is not a good way to work with a guide dog. So that was one reason I delayed. And at another point, it's like, you know, I'm not really walking enough to warrant a guide dog, you know, because you have to, you know, be out and about a lot. And then, Gosh, I think 15 years ago, I really got into walking a lot. It was good for my mental health, and my vision had changed more. And it's like, oh, it is. It is just time to get a dog. Having a dog is. It's like Nancy was saying, it's just so much a better sense of independence, freedom, fastness, you know, able to walk more quickly with a dog versus walking with a cane.

A (7:35)

So when people start to think about this process, or even certainly the general public, well meaning, as they may be asking, you know, why don't you have a dog? When are you going to get a dog? Or maybe you're thinking about that. There are often some misconceptions that come along for the ride. The one I get a lot as a misconception is that you don't really need to learn to travel in any other way before getting a dog. So in other words, you don't need to think about those basic orientation and mobility skills, whether that's learning a cane, learning to pay attention to some cues in your environment to understand where you are. You know, the dog's going to take care of that. I think that's one misconception that I hear a lot. So what about for each of you? Were there misconceptions that either you had or maybe your friends and family had about what it would be like to have a dog or what they can or can't do, that kind of thing? So, Nancy, we'll start with you.

B (8:53)

So I'm the first Guide dog owner here in my town, so there's no one else to really compare me to or ask questions. It was sort of an information abyss. I didn't know anything about guide dogs, so I started reading books about them and people sharing their journeys and their adventures with. About their guide dogs. And that was. That was educational thought that helped out a lot. As far as dealing with my family, I kept on telling them, now, this is a service dog. It's not going to be your pet. You're not going to be playing with my dog. This is my dog. So they were kind of resentful. They're like, wait a minute, we want a pet. We're going to have our own dog. And that is actually different than what I thought. Yes, Vince is my guide dog. And once you put a harness on and so he's working and no one else bothers him, he's concentrated on me. But as far as when that harness comes off and he's only on leash or he's free to roam around, he's as cuddly and playful with my grandson at 18 months as he is with everyone else. So he's wonderful. As far as what we all thought, how does the guide dog actually function? What can we expect of him? I tell everyone I'm the gps and the guide dog actually keeps me safe and keeps me going. We actually learn to listen for cues. And so I do use all my mobility skills, learning to listen for traffic patterns, for voices, for cues as to what is close to me in order to guide my direction for the dog. The dog keeps me safe, keeps me away from trouble. We came back in late September to my hometown, and we have no sidewalks. We have to walk the street close to the curb. And as you would imagine in rural New Jersey, we have many trees and there were big piles of leaves everywhere. So Vince would guide me around the piles of leaves, and then we would get back to the curb and proceed in our journey. He also guides me around parked cars. Like I said, we have no sidewalks, so we go around parked cars. And the fun thing is that if there's a car that's going to cut us off, he stops in his track. I was recounting this one story before Vince and I went for a long walk, and it took a little longer than I thought. And my friend was waiting for us in our drive by. I turned onto the street and there was construction going on in a house. And it's fall. There are landscapers blowing leaves. It's really a cacophony of sounds Everywhere. We made that turn into the street, and I could tell that there was a truck idling in front of me. I kept telling Vince, hop up, which means go. He wouldn't move. So then I called my friend who was waiting. So eventually she came down to meet us at the end of the block, and she said he was right for not moving. There are two trucks in front of you. Landscapers are all around, and two trucks on the other side of the street with traffic going on. No wonder he wasn't progressing and going into danger. I think it's called intelligent disobedience, where the dog instinctively knows that it's dangerous. So let's put the brakes on until it's safe for you to move. I wouldn't have done that with a cane. I wouldn't have known. I would have tried to get around the obstacle, which is, you know, in front of me, and perhaps put myself in harm's way because I wouldn't be able to discern all those different trucks and people going to and fro in front of me. So that was. That was a lifesaver, actually. That's what I rely on Vince for.

C (13:04)

Yeah.

A (13:05)

And I do, really. First of all, I really love that story. It's such a good illustration of how a dog works. You are kind of the brains of the operation, but sometimes the dog knows something that you don't, and this is the way that they communicate that, yeah, I'm going to stick stop because it's dangerous, and eventually we'll figure out how to get out of this mess. But for the moment, you said to go, and I'm going to say, no, not a good idea. Judy, do you remember what kinds of misconceptions you had or your family had about what it was going to be like to have a dog, or even maybe what the dog could or couldn't do before you got yours?

C (13:50)

This was a misconception that I had, and it was a really tough one to come face to face with. My first guide dog was named Mandrake, and he was a lovely yellow lab. And we worked so hard at guiding Eyes and just did so well. And then I brought him home, and initially it seemed to be working, and then he just seemed to be not as engaged. And so, you know, I talked to the school. They were very supportive. They said, let's do some medical tests. And they came and got him and took him back to school, and they did medical tests. And then he thought, you know, everything was good, and they brought him back. And the first walk I did with my trainer, he did okay, but not great. And then the next walk we took, you know, later that afternoon, he just, he wasn't engaged at all. So not all guide dog pair matches work. And it was especially tough since it was my first one. And schools, all schools, try so hard to find the right dog for you. You know, they look at how fast you walk, where you walk, what kind of pull you need on the harness. But his heart was just not ready to be a guide dog. And Prince, my second guide dog, worked really well and I worked with him for seven years. But eventually he let me know that I don't like walking on this sidewalk next to this busy street anymore. So, you know, that's another kind of unknown thing, is how long. Once you have a guide dog, that dog will work with you. So you just have to be prepared for what comes. And that was a hard lesson.

A (15:40)

Yeah, no kidding. And you don't think about that with a cane. You know, you imagine it's going to work forever unless like the elastic snaps or something. And so you don't know how long your guide dog will say, I love this, okay, not anymore. Or as you had your first pairing, that didn't work out quite so well. I too had a similar situation. I didn't come home with that initial dog. We did manage to figure it out while at the school. But I think it's a good thing for people to know that if you're going into this and things are not working, sometimes they are fixable and sometimes they're just not for a variety of reasons.

C (16:32)

Yeah. And plus, I think a lot of, you know, books that people write about guide dogs, they're talking about this wonderful, wonderful experience. And not very many people have had failed pairings. And the nice thing for Mandrake is at that time my school had a healing autism program. So he was matched after some additional training to be a companion for, I think it was a seven year old boy with autism. And so Mandrake had a happy story at the end. I had a happy story, I got Prince. So it was all meant to be. But you know, like I said, I just, I had no idea that could happen. So people need to be aware. And like you said, Ricky, it's good to know that in advance so that the sooner you all recognize, hey, there might be an issue here, you can try to fix it and maybe just can't.

A (17:23)

For both of you, a theme that kind of keeps coming up is freedom. So when you travel with a dog, it gives you this sense of freedom. That you just don't have with any other form of travel. There's the ability to not have to find that obstacle in order to figure out what to do about it and how to get around it. So I think that's one thing that a dog offers you. Is there anything else that you feel like a dog gives you that really nothing else could or some possibility that it opened up that you didn't imagine before? Now, Nancy, we'll start with you.

B (18:07)

I really like the fact that when I walk with Vince, people understand that I have a vision problem. People understand, oh, it's a seeing eye dog. Let's not cross the street because here's a blind lady coming with a cane and let's keep away from her. It's a guide dog. And many times people will say hello and be respectful and say, hi, I see you're working. Hello, Vince. Hello, Nancy. And we keep on going. And that's nice. They do identify me as a person with sight problems. To me, that's liberating because I don't wear dark glasses. I look like every other person. I was usually walking with a sighted guide, so no one ever suspected that I had vision problems. And now with Vince, I feel like a new life started and people are more understanding. Oh, Nancy does have a vision problem. They're more compassionate in a way, but have embraced this new life of not seeing but being able to be part of life with a guide dog. I don't know how you feel about it, Judy, but I feel like it helps me integrate with people a little bit more.

A (19:31)

Bit of an icebreaker, maybe, and sort of answers a lot of questions that people maybe wouldn't have asked. Right.

B (19:38)

Can she see? Can she not see me? And it actually does explain a lot of things because when you meet someone two years ago, your vision might have changed. Now, two years down the road and they don't understand that. They don't understand that what you were able to see before, you can't see now. Things have changed. They're different.

A (20:01)

And Judy, what about for you? What does a dog give to you that you just didn't have before?

C (20:08)

Yeah, I agree with both of you. It's an icebreaker. It's a conversation starter if you work with the dog. Because oftentimes if somebody sees somebody with a white cane, I think. I don't know, but I think that they don't know how to start a conversation with you. But if they see a dog, that's something. Oh, that's a beautiful dog. And that can just go on from there. And I live alone. I live in an area where one street I walk on, there are no sidewalks. And then I can get up to one street that does have a sidewalk. And so having a dog that's comfortable in both work environments is great. And also back to that conversation starter. Since I live alone, connecting with my neighbors is a joy and also very helpful. I know one time when I was walking with my cane on this busier street on the sidewalk, I cannot tell you how many pedestrians and even some drivers stop to say, what happened to your dog? Is your dog okay? And it was just amazing to know how many people saw me as a person that they know, and that just meant so much. And then one time when I was walking with Orville, and I know you both can sympathize with this, is there was a tree that kind of grown over the sidewalk, and it just was right at my face level, which is tricky for guide dogs to handle. And so I brought my trimmers. I got Orville in it down. I started to try to start clipping this tree back, and it's like, oh, my gosh, there's thorns. I didn't know that had thorns. And this is just not going to be fun. And all of a sudden, this man, out of the blue came. He said, would you like some help? He's like, oh, that would be wonderful. And we just chatted while he was trimming it back, and he could trim way back, and he could do it faster. So I thanked him profusely, and I did not realize he was in a car. So he drove off. And then, like five minutes later, he came back and he gave me a card. And he said, this is my wife's and my phone numbers. It's our address, it's our email. If you ever need anything, you know, just let us know. And, you know, they have picked up grocery orders for me. They've picked me up at the airport, and that's the kind of connection I have. And I think part of it is the dog. Yes, I have a good personality, but I think the dog got it started. That, to me, is just a really nice bonus because people care. It's just they don't know what to do with people with disabilities. So if they can find a neutral place to connect with you, sometimes that makes it easier for them to start building a relationship with you.

A (22:47)

So here we are talking about these wonderful dogs and how they can foster such connection. And then, of course, my next question is, I won't say it's a downer, but it is kind of a. Okay, you know, there's gotta be another side to this somewhere. So I do have to ask. And Judy, I'll start with you because you've had more experience, so you may have accumulated more stories. But whether it is issues that you've had in your own dog partnerships or just issues that people should think about when they're going to get a dog, what are the cons, for lack of a better term, that people should think about when they're making that decision?

C (23:32)

One thing I tell people about is your knees. Dogs take up space. So if you're riding in a car, we are trained to have the dog at our feet in a car. And so that dog is at your feet. Then you're trying to shift your feet to keep your knees from falling apart. And it's the same on airplanes. I mean, airplanes have just gotten to be such a tighter fit. And orville is a 65 pound dog, so he's not a small dog. And so, you know, if it's a very long flight, that's something else I have to pay attention is to, you know, how to move my feet. But still there's that to keep in mind. And you know, some people, if they have a family vehicle, they do put their dog in the back seat or in the, in the space behind the back feet. And then the other thing I think that some people don't take into account is the time it takes to do what all the dog needs. You know, taking them out, you know, in the rain, in the cold, you know, for those bathroom breaks. I do not have a fenced in backyard. So there's that. And then there's also the grooming and I choose to bathe my own dog. So I don't, you know, I think they feel more comfortable with me doing that. So that's something I've taken on. And then also there's just the brushing because a lot of people don't realize that yes, you are allowed to go into all these public places, but part of that is your dog has to be well groomed and behave. And then also I go the extra mile and then I brush my dog's teeth. You know, it's only another five minutes or so every night. But I feel like dental care for my dog is just as important for dental care for myself. So those are some things to consider is just your personal space when you're traveling. And then the time that it takes to do what all that dog needs to stay healthy and to look good.

A (25:30)

Yeah, all great points, Nancy. What about you? Any cons that you want to throw into the mix or just things that maybe aren't your favorite or you hadn't considered?

B (25:40)

Well, I think all those points definitely have to consider. Committing so much time and energy to the dog. I've been with Vince traveling in Ubers, on subways, on buses, and they're amazing how they actually can scoot under a seat and travel all over. So that's exciting. However, the thing that did hold me back, at least I was a little apprehensive about, was the Seeing Eye has a program where the first time dog owners will go there for 24 days. And you live on campus and you have very limited time away from the school. Actually, you don't have any time away from the school. You have to stay there 24 days on premises. And I was wondering, how will I manage? I have so many responsibilities at home. How will I manage going away? That was a little bit of a consideration for me. And also being away from my family and everything that I knew this is a very new experience for me and I didn't know what to expect. That was really something I dreaded. And I remember the first time, the first day when my husband left me off at school, I was just like, we were both kind of shaking. He was very nervous leaving me alone. And I was very apprehensive as well. And we almost had tears in our eyes. And then he left the door closed. I was in my dorm room. It was a single room with my own bathroom. And the loudspeakers came on and they said, come on out to the lounge. And I met 17 other students and the instructors were amazing. The staff was so supportive and energetic and friendly. And they said, well, all you have to do is think about yourself this time. You don't have to take care of your family or all your other obligations. All you have to think about is yourself and your new dog. That will come in a day or two. So really, what, what's their due? Oh, you'll have plenty to do. You don't even have to make your bed in the morning. We'll take care of that and we'll take care of all the bathrooms and things of that sort. All you have to do is concentrate on yourself and the dog. I'm not going to say that it was easy because getting up at 5:30 in the morning to get the dog out for first outing and bathroom break is not the thing that I usually do. So outside with 17 other students and we're all trying to get the dog to go on the parking lot, and then we come back inside and wait for the doorbell to ring so that we could feed and water our dogs. And then we're called down for the first time with our dogs. We're leading for the first time before we actually harness them. And we go to a cafeteria, and there's this beautiful dining hall, and everyone comes in, and we sit at our table. The dogs are under our seats, and they stay there, and we're served beautiful meals. And then off we go. Off we go, working our dogs all day long. It was a wonderfully enriching experience for me. I learned so much at the Seeing Eye. It's hard to trust this animal for the first time with your life kind of thing. You're going through busy streets, on sidewalks, and he's guiding me around. It was. Of course, the instructors are there right by our sides, telling us what to do, but it makes us feel better. But you're still, like, on edge, you know, for the first time through this journey, it's really hard. But I must say, the instructors are amazing. They all encourage. They all have so much patience, and they work as teams. You're never alone. There's always someone looking at what you're doing, and there might be a suggestion, let's try this thing, or let's try something else. I thought that was really enriching and rewarding. And to this day, I mean, I've been out of the program since last fall, 20, 25. To this day, the students and I keep in touch. We have zoom calls together. We exchanged cell phones. So we talk to each other. We exchange ideas on navigating what works well, what doesn't work well. I was having a bit of problems correcting Vince. When he would see other dogs in the neighborhood, he would stop and just like,

C (30:38)

I want to go fly, and

B (30:40)

I would try correcting him and say, no, you. You have to hop up and go on your way. And, of course, that's a hard thing to correct. And the instructors actually came out to me two or three times to help me through this process. They're very supportive, wonderful people, and they're still there. I mean, if I have any troubles or any questions, if I need any adjustments to my. To the harness or the handle, I can just call them. That's really great, because I don't feel alone in this journey. It's not like they shipped me out with a dog, and now I have to figure things out by myself. They're still there. They're wonderful resources.

A (31:22)

That is so nice. Because even when you do encounter a problem like Dog Distractions is a big one, a dog is going to be very well trained, but it's also still a dog. It's so nice to know those instructors are still there to step in, offer support, encouragement, and they've seen it all before and have some tricks, so that's good. Gosh, we have really covered a lot, I feel like, and so much of it is just listening to the two of you kind of glow as you talk about just how much your dogs have given you. And I so love to hear that. I think that if you are listening and you're considering a dog, I'm hoping that this has answered a lot of questions for you. We do at Hadley have a set of short video workshops talking about the pros and cons and kind of giving some ideas on what it might be like to have a guide dog. I know people often wonder, hey, I have some visions still, so I probably can't get one right. And that is certainly not true. So if you have questions, and I imagine that you might, we're here at Hadley to talk those through with you. And I imagine a lot of things you might have been wondering about have been answered here as well. As we wrap up, I just want to ask each of you, we've covered a lot, but is there anything else that you want to say to someone who is. Maybe they had never thought about a guide dog before listening to this, or maybe they were considering, but they're still on the fence. You know, it's not the right decision for everyone, but anything that you would say to someone listening that might help to make that decision one way or the other that we didn't cover. So, Judy, we'll start with you.

C (33:29)

Yes, guide dog schools are amazing. As Nancy said, they're very, very supportive. You know, they do this all the time. So you can trust going to a school you will be well taken care of. But what I would also like to add is people need to keep in mind there are at least, I think, 15 different guide dog schools. So some people need to examine the various schools to see what they offer. Because some people will choose a school because of its location or because of the breeds of the dogs they use or the length of the training they have. Some people also look at, you know, what kind of financial stipend there may be, because that may be a concern. Number one, most guide dog schools are free, so we haven't mentioned that yet. And also some schools will provide a financial stipend, usually to help with like the veterinarian bills, which can be a little expensive. So if you're worried that you cannot afford a guide dog, do not rule it out that you cannot afford one until you've done your research. And if you even have dog allergies, there is one guide dog school, I think it's guide dogs of the desert or in the desert out in California that uses poodles. So don't rule out having a guide dog if you or somebody in your family has allergies. One reference I would suggest people use is G D U I, which is Guide Dog Users Incorporated. And so if you just do gdui.org and go to their resources link, they have a list of all the different schools and then they also have surveys those schools have prepared to show what length of training they have, what breeds they use, and it's just a good place to start. So, yes, Ricky, you're absolutely right. It is not for everyone to have a guide dog. But just like when we're looking at technology, don't rule anything out until you do your research. Possibilities are there, so don't rule anything out.

A (35:33)

Very well put. Thanks, Judy. How about from you, Nancy?

B (35:37)

That was a lot of good information, Judy. I really appreciate that. I would add to that that when you do make a decision, these schools also pay for transportation. So at the Seeing Eye there people coming from Colorado and California and Canada, it wasn't just local people. So don't hold back thinking you can't go somewhere because of the distance. The other thing I would mention is that the process of filling out the applications before you actually get the dog, it's a long process. So I didn't know how long it would take. Obviously, you have to complete all the applications, get referrals, get medical records, you know, that attest that you do need a guide dog. It's not an easy thing to get. And then once all that is completed, it goes through a process where the school itself analyzes the application to determine whether or not you're a good candidate. And then the board is presented with the application after an interview, a personal interview occurs. They come to your house and interview. So they have to make sure that these dogs, they're very valuable dogs and they care for these dogs deeply. They want to make sure that Vince will be well cared for, that he will be in a good environment, that I can actually care for the dog, for the dog, as well as work him. So, yes, don't hold back. If you have any questions, you could always visit the schools. They are very happy to show you around and acquaint you with their facilities and their process.

C (37:27)

And one final thing I would like to add is, yes, guide dogs are wonderful. They help us get around. But there's just that warm fuzzy. Having a dog that is devoted to you and is there for you. It is at your feet and is there for you when you're feeling sad or ready to play. It just. It's just. It adds such a special part to your life to have a dog and a guide dog especially. I mean, it's just. It's just amazing. It's just a wonderful experience.

A (38:00)

Well, this has been so fun and so informative, and I've really enjoyed both of you talking about your dogs and your experiences. Thank you so much for spending some time with us and for sharing the good stuff and the stuff that's a little bit challenging. And I hope that if you're listening, you know a little bit more than you did before and you're willing to ask questions if you have them. So thanks so much, Nancy and Judy, for stopping by. Really had a wonderful time with both of you. Got something to say? Share your thoughts about this episode of Hadley Presents or make suggestions for future episodes. We'd love to hear from you. Send us an email@podcastadleyhelps.org that's P O D C A S tadleyhelps.org or leave us a message at 847-784-2870. Thanks for listening.