Mark Arneson (3:19)

Okay, so if I'm getting this right, dilemmas, they call us or pull us to act on two different values. So has this come up in your marriage, Eric? Ann, has this come up in your marriage? On occasion.

Dr. Ann Wagner (3:31)

Why? Yes, and often it is related to the blindness and sometimes it's not. So, yeah, we have a lot of dilemmas and two main kinds. One is when Eric offers help that I haven't asked for, and the other is when he's busy and I need his help for something I can't see to do, so he's busy. And so if I lay out first what the values are that come into play when he's offering me help that I haven't asked for, the dilemma there, for me, the different values are one, if I accept the help, it would mean because I value, and I know his core is all about loving me and wanting to be helpful and of service. And I would be supporting him in that if I accepted the help. But the other pull for me is to decline the help because I also my own core value of self sufficiency and independence, it's part of my integrity to do the things that I'm able to do myself. And so if I decline the help, that would be the value I'd be acting on. So there's a dilemma there. I can't really do both. And for him, I'm going to let him share.

Mark Arneson (4:44)

Yeah, I'd love to hear from Eric.

Eric Ringham (4:47)

Well, in that example about offering help that hasn't been asked for, Ann is right. I was raised that if you see someone who looks like they could use a hand, you offer that hand. My father was a Lutheran pastor, and the ethic of, you know, doing good in the world, of helping people out, lending people a helping hand, it was theoretically part of the foundation of our household. And you know, for me, where I come from, if you see someone needing help and you don't offer to help them, it's a kind of an insult and it's something that I just wouldn't do naturally.

Dr. Ann Wagner (5:26)

Yeah.

Eric Ringham (5:27)

So that's the thing. I'm trained. I was brought up in the case where probably going to wind up talking about here. If Ann should happen to say, oh God, I'm really thirsty, it is in my nature to jump up and go get her a glass of water.

Mark Arneson (5:43)

Sure.

Dr. Ann Wagner (5:43)

So the value there is for you is of being of service, being kind, loving me. Those would be the values internal for you.

Eric Ringham (5:53)

And I have come to understand that Ann would really rather get her own water or exercise her option of asking me to get her a glass of water. But she would rather not have me go get her one without being asked. And I am not capable of not giving her a glass of water under my own power if I see that she would benefit from having that glass of water.

Dr. Ann Wagner (6:21)

So I just think it might help listeners to understand. So we understand the one value that's showing up for you, being of help and all the nuances of just that of being of help to somebody you care about is a view of if I don't, I'm. I'm potentially doing something offensive.

Eric Ringham (6:39)

Right.

Dr. Ann Wagner (6:40)

But it's, it's who you are. But the other value, if you don't offer the help, unless until you wait for me to ask you, that value would be what would you call the value if you, if you withheld that.

Eric Ringham (6:51)

That value is called help by not helping.

Dr. Ann Wagner (6:54)

Yes. So that's the name we came up with when he truly helping me by not helping.

Eric Ringham (7:00)

Right. But even just your personal preferences, it doesn't have to, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with you being blind. You might be perfectly well sighted or able to see better than me and still want me to not be always in your face with glasses of water.

Dr. Ann Wagner (7:13)

Sure.

Eric Ringham (7:14)

Yeah.

Dr. Ann Wagner (7:14)

And in our early dating there was a time where I was sitting on the couch and I just happened to spray speak the truth, you know, I'm thirsty and I was about to get up to get myself a glass of water and he jumped up immediately. And so then that became a perfect word for if you say you're thirsty. So this is when he has already offered help that I didn't ask for. We can both use that word if you say you're thirsty and I get to validate immediately. This is who he is. He is built to be Loving. And I'm not judging that. He offered help I didn't ask for. And then he will respond with help by not helping. And he understands that he's supporting my. My value of self sufficiency and independence.

Eric Ringham (7:53)

But there is kind of a bottom line beyond which I won't willingly go. You know, if you have a cut, I'm going for the first aid kit. And if I see that you're thirsty, I'm going to get you a glass of water. And the label that we've come up with is, if you say you're thirsty, I'm going to get you a glass of water. But there is this other. There is this other whole universe of things that's covered by helping, by not helping.

Mark Arneson (8:15)

Help me understand that better. A whole universe of things.

Eric Ringham (8:19)

Well, that's just the basic rule. If I'm restraining my impulse to help, that is helping. That is actively helping. And it's something that I have to work at every day.

Dr. Ann Wagner (8:31)

He shared with me that each choice we make, we're going to have emotions about the choice we didn't make. And those emotions also are so important to validate and understand. Like he says, it takes energy for him to decide to take the kind of. The choice to not offer the help when he thinks he could be of service. And I. And he'll often say, just so you know, oh, yeah, I'm helping by not helping.

Eric Ringham (8:59)

You know, it's the thought that counts. Right.

Dr. Ann Wagner (9:01)

And what I assure him is it allows me to validate his core in that moment because he is the love of my life, he is my partner. And I know that it's hard for him to support me in this way. And yet I. I get to see that he is. And it's not about taking credit. It's just about me being able to validate something he's experiencing internally that is hard. And that's the whole point of belongingness and connectedness and just deepening our connection and understanding of each other. So. So those are two names that if you say you're thirsty and help by not helping.

Mark Arneson (9:36)

Just listening to you guys kind of share about this, it sounds like you've spent a lot of time talking about it and figuring it out, but I'm kind of curious about that. You guys have taken the time and the effort to kind of pay attention to this and come up with a solution for this. And can you tell me a little bit about how that conversation started and maybe how it evolved a little bit?

Dr. Ann Wagner (9:58)

It started with me sharing with Eric when we were Dating the, this idea of externalizing, naming the patterns and that the more we can understand the values at play, those inner pushes and pulls, and then the core values of, of what it is we're. We're wanting to show up that matters to us. Once you understand the values, it's so much easier to just validate that. So it started with me sharing the principle. And people where I've presented at other vision loss conferences will come up afterwards and say they love the idea of being able to talk with their partner or significant other or even co workers for common dilemmas that show up. And the idea of having fun with the naming because we like to laugh and humor helps us a lot in navigating these.

Mark Arneson (10:46)

Okay, so there was another dilemma that you guys talked about.

Dr. Ann Wagner (10:48)

When he's busy, when Eric's busy, he's in the middle of something. And I may or may not know that he's actually in the middle of something really important because I just don't always know. And I need him to help with something where my computer. So I'll ask him. And the dilemma there is for me and the values is I either ask him for help or I don't. If I ask him for help, it means I'm valuing the task I'm trying to get completed, and it's important to me. So that's one value. Or if I don't ask him, say I actually know he's busy, then I'm certainly honoring the value that I love him and I totally believe that his wants and needs for his day are just as important as mine. Just because I'm blind does not give me a priority in any way. So I would be supporting him to not bother him when he's busy. And then for him, the one who's busy at the time I ask, the two options are to help or to ask you to wait, or to ask.

Eric Ringham (11:54)

You to just wait.

Dr. Ann Wagner (11:56)

There's a cute story. So there's this day many years ago where we were having some pie, leftover pie. And we're sitting there and I finished my pie. I thought he was done with his because I couldn't see. And I asked him to look something up on his iPad, which was there. And he had a mouthful of pie. And he's like, can I eat my piece? And it cracked us up. I was laughing so hard. I'm like, I didn't know you weren't done with your pie. And then we just realized that's a perfect name for when he's busy with something. And I'VE asked him to do something, and we use it at least once a week. Can I eat my pie? He'll say, and I know he's busy, and I totally validate, like, yeah, I can wait.

Mark Arneson (12:39)

I love that. Can I eat my pie? And you guys both immediately know, then this is the dilemma that you're dealing with.

Dr. Ann Wagner (12:46)

Yep. And there's another name that I think it happened when we were in a grocery store. Do you want to tell me?

Eric Ringham (12:52)

Target. Yeah. Ann has many superpowers, but one of them is that she's more spatially aware, more geographically aware of her position relative to other objects. And she learns the layout, say, for example, of the grocery section in our Target. So when we're going through a Target store and we're looking for stuff, she'll give me the next three things, and she'll say, no, we've got to go get X now. And so we'll be heading in that direction. And then she'll say she'll remember something else that's in that neighborhood, and she'll name that one. And then. So I've got two items in my head that I'm trying to keep straight that we're looking for, and I'm navigating the other things. Like, I'm leading Ann through the grocery store, and I'm pushing a cart, and I've got this list, this mental list that I'm trying to pursue. And Anne will name two more things after the two that I've got in my head. And I get to a point where I have to say, hey, you're crashing my computer. Because there are too many tasks piled up on top of each other, and I've lost my ability to keep them straight and to do them in an orderly way.

Dr. Ann Wagner (13:56)

So the name you're crashing my computer comes up not as frequently as the can I eat my pie? Which just, you know, the pie is just letting me know he's busy. And I can eat. I can wait. Unless it's something urgent. I can wait. Because his needs and wants for the day and his time matter, and they matter to me. You're crashing my computers. Usually when I'm just. I'm saying too many things or to do things, speaking them out loud, because it helps me remember, and it just helps me know he needs space and time, and I just need to not speak them for a bit. So those are some common things that come up for us. And I know other couples or relationships may have different kinds of dilemmas, but we do find the naming helps us validate Each other, stay connected, actually enhance our sense of connection and belongingness with each other, because we understand the values.

Mark Arneson (14:48)

I love that you guys both know exactly what is going on the minute you use those phrases. So I want to shift the conversation a little bit. Part of what I get to do here at Hadley is talk to folks, and I hear their stories, and I hear their challenges. And I also talk to spouses of folks who are dealing with vision loss. And I've heard sometimes husbands and wives share. They sometimes feel sad or grief for their spouse's vision loss, but they can feel guilty for feeling those emotions of sadness or feeling grief for that vision loss because it hasn't happened to them. Are you guys able to talk a little bit about that, Eric? Are you able to share a little bit about that at all?

Eric Ringham (15:28)

My father went blind later in his life. He had a severe case of macular degeneration. He was really burdened by his blindness, and it really got in the way of things that he wanted to do. And I think I came out of that relationship with a sense of kind of guilt that he's going through this. And I can't, try as I might, I can't really relate to it. The thing about that was that it made me feel like there's really not. I can't really do enough for him. I mean, I was always offering to do things for him that were off the mark. I'd call him up and I'd say, hey, dad, I've got some free time this afternoon. You want to go have lunch? And he'd say no. And it would be him avoiding it because it was easier for him to just stay home alone and do his own private things. So I felt sort of something like guilt at my ineptitude with him. With Ann, I think grief is the better word.

Mark Arneson (16:24)

Okay.

Eric Ringham (16:25)

And I do feel grief on a couple of levels with her because it's hard to watch someone you love going through this progressive vision loss. Anne had precious little vision when I met her, but she's lost most of that, I wager, in the years since then. And to see the things that she can't any longer see or appreciate are hard for me. I keep trying to deny the reality of it. This happened just, what, a couple of weeks ago, had one of those extraordinary full moons. And we were driving, and the moon was hanging over the end of the road like a blimp. I mean, it was just huge and completely full to bursting, brightly lit up, and this kind of delightful orange tint to it as it hung There, over the horizon. Once again, I tried to get her to see it. I'd say, no, no, just look. It's just straight ahead. It's about 11:00 at our position, just above the level of the road. Do you remember that, Ann?

Dr. Ann Wagner (17:24)

I do.

Eric Ringham (17:25)

And you said, I can see a.

Dr. Ann Wagner (17:28)

Light, but I couldn't appreciate any of the orange and I couldn't make out the circle of it. But I didn't know if I was looking at a bright street lamp or the actual moon. But I saw a light. There's been other times I haven't been able to find it at all with my scanning because I have such severe tunnel vision. I just can't find it and I get a headache. So.

Eric Ringham (17:49)

So I think I have a thing in my personality, probably going back to my childhood, that I need to validate that I've seen something incredibly cool by having someone else see that incredibly cool thing. And if they don't stamp my souvenir card that way, I feel like I can't really prove that I saw it.

Dr. Ann Wagner (18:08)

From my psychodynamic background. I would just want to say what that's actually about or my understanding of what that's about is because we are born as social creatures is incredibly important to us to feel understood. It's why we share stories. We are meaning makers and it's all through the stories of our lives. And wanting to feel like somebody else has heard that story or even shared in deepens our belongingness and our connectedness and that is healthy and it's something we actually need for optimal health and well being. So it's not necessarily that you're wanting your card stamped. I think it's just that it's part of when you see something really cool you want somebody else to experience so you can feel that shared meaning. And it's about belongingness. And that is, we've, we've talked about that is an area of grief for you that I cannot see what you see. And there's nothing. The helplessness that shows up is telling you that truth. There's nothing you can do to have me see it. And what are the values? What does the grief tell you about what you care about?

Eric Ringham (19:18)

Well, it tells me that I love you and I want you to experience the same world that I experience and all its beauty.

Dr. Ann Wagner (19:24)

Yeah, those are ideas and we get attached to ideas. And grief is about acknowledging some ideas are not possible and we have to detach and that's grief. So. But if we get to the value level, you said it, you Stand for loving me. So what are. When you connect to that level, there are many, many other ways you can show that love through describing, through.

Eric Ringham (19:48)

Right, right. And I like to think that I'm capable, that I have the verbal skills to help Ann appreciate things that she can't see. I never. I can never learn to just keep it to myself. If an eagle flies over and it happens almost every day, I'll see it and I'll say, ah, there goes an eagle flying right over the car.

Dr. Ann Wagner (20:09)

Yeah. And I feel his joy and delight in that moment. And I know it's going to quickly be followed, because we've talked about it, that this grief will show up, and it tells him what he stands for. He loves me and he wants belongingness. And luckily, we are able to find many, many, many other ways to have that. And this isn't about not feeling the grief. It's not about conquering it, preventing it from showing. Walking our journey together is about understanding that every day the grief of not having those moments of connectedness the way he might most want, the blindness is interfering. It's creating this grief. And yet we can validate it and have compassion for it and still feel close.

Mark Arneson (20:55)

Those are wonderful stories, you guys. I am curious. Is there anything that you would say to somebody who feels like they don't or they may not have permission to experience or feel loss for their spouse's vision loss? Is there anything you'd want to say to somebody who maybe doesn't feel like they have permission to experience or feel that loss?

Dr. Ann Wagner (21:12)

Well, I would just want to validate. If you're feeling it, it's real, and it's trying to tell you what you care about. And it's really, really important to validate our own reality because our core knows our truth, and we do have permission to experience it, to talk with it. Our own inner experiences, we can talk with the grief and understand it. And I would encourage people to talk with the other person in their life, you know, the person with the vision loss.

Eric Ringham (21:40)

And that's important to me because when people describe me as a caregiver, I think, you know, it is absolutely no different from any other relationship, any other marriage. I think, you know, each partner brings certain skills and lacks certain skills. And Ann is good at showing up with psychological expertise and showing people loving kindness and warmth and support. And I'm good at reading soup labels and driving cars. It doesn't mean that I'm caregiving when I do the part that I'm good at.

Mark Arneson (22:15)

Yeah. So it's clear that you guys have a lot of fun together, too, just from your stories. Can you guys share a time where maybe you can look back on it and. And chuckle now or laugh at experience that maybe you had together, maybe because of your vision loss? Ann?

Dr. Ann Wagner (22:30)

Yeah. There are so many, and they happen almost every day. Something will happen that will have a smile or chuckle that's actually been created by the blindness. So we both appreciate what the blindness brings. It isn't always stress or grief, but they might not be funny to other people, and they're hard to remember. I was thinking about. He'll pull out the car from the garage, and I think, I'm feeling the front door, and I've opened the back door, and suddenly I'll hear his voice. And he's like, well, okay, if you want to feel like you're being chauffeured and like, I'm going to get in the backseat. And he's got this wry humor that cracks me up. And suddenly his voice is coming from a direction slightly different than what I was expecting. And it's that kind of thing that just happens. There's other, like, funny things. I don't know what it is about when I drop something and I'm feeling for it. Eric will just start laughing, and he's like, once again, it's like you have anti radar. Because I listened to where it fell, and you'd think I'd get good at locating it, but I'm moving around. I think I'm doing it in a grid pattern, and I miss it. He says, it's unerring. You're like a millimeter from it, and your hand moves away to search another area. So that happens frequently.

Eric Ringham (23:46)

It's amazing how she. Her hand will describe the outline of the thing she's looking for.

Dr. Ann Wagner (23:51)

And I miss it, but she won't find it. Yeah. And then he'll say, to the right. Go to the right more.

Mark Arneson (23:57)

How important is it for you guys to kind of recognize these moments and look back on these moments and incorporate them into your marriage?

Eric Ringham (24:05)

On a scale of 1 to 10, about 11 or 12. We take great pride in being able to embrace the sheer physical comedy that we sometimes get involved in. And I think it's a big part of our identity. You know, there are these new therapies coming out all the time, gene therapies and things that can restore partial sight if other conditions are right. And so it becomes an actual possibility. Is this something that you'd want to think about? And Ann has had to think a little bit about what it would be like for her to submit to that kind of therapy. And I've had to think a little bit about what it would be like if Ann could suddenly get a good look at me. I don't know if that would be in my interest.

Dr. Ann Wagner (24:48)

So we do laugh.

Eric Ringham (24:50)

But the vision, loss, it's something that I walk alongside as well as Ann walks alongside. It's a third wheel in our relationship.

Dr. Ann Wagner (24:59)

Sometimes, but it's not. It doesn't define either one of us, and it doesn't define our relationship. It is here, and it creates all sorts of interesting moments.

Mark Arneson (25:10)

I love that. No, I think that's a. That's a great point. Is there anything that you guys want to leave our audience with?

Dr. Ann Wagner (25:17)

Isn't it interesting? As human beings, we yearn to feel like our experiences and our stories can be shared by somebody else. It gives that to ancient, ancient peoples, which is why they drew their stories before language, before words. They drew their important stories on cave walls with the idea that either their future self might see it or another human being would see it so they could feel less alone. Because loneliness is. It's so painful, and yet it tells us our cores. We are built for relationships and belongingness. We are social creatures, and our stories matter and our experiences matter.

Mark Arneson (25:56)

So nice, Anne, and so, so great that you guys are experiencing this together. You have each other.

Eric Ringham (26:01)

Yes, we do.

Mark Arneson (26:02)

Yeah. To experience this together, you guys. Thank you so much for just being on and just sharing. And the thing I appreciate also is you're just sharing about your life. I mean, you're very open and honest and vulnerable with, you know, your feelings and emotions and your lives.

Dr. Ann Wagner (26:17)

Yeah. We found that that helps us feel healthier or I should speak for myself. I just. When I can be real and authentic, those village moments again, when two people show up, real and authentic and kind of trusting that we can share from our core what really matters to us. It's just a beautiful feeling and it's revitalizing or it just. It's healthy.

Mark Arneson (26:41)

Thank you so much for this conversation today. I really appreciate it.

Eric Ringham (26:44)

Thank you. It's been a pleasure, Mark.

Dr. Ann Wagner (26:46)

Thank you.

Ricky Enger (26:47)

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