Episode 10 - Unanswered Questions

Summary

Podcast Summary: Hands Tied

Episode 10 – Unanswered Questions
Host: Maggie Robinson Katz
Producer/Co-Host: Maggie Latham
Date: October 8, 2025

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Overview and Main Theme

This bonus episode serves as a reflective coda to the main Hands Tied series. Host Maggie Robinson Katz and producer Maggie Latham revisit lingering questions from the investigation and trial into Jim Melgar’s 2012 murder, for which his wife Sandra (Sandy) Melgar was convicted. The duo discusses conversations and perspectives that didn’t make it into the main series, delving into law enforcement opinions, jury thought processes, the Melgar family’s Jehovah’s Witness faith, and elements of the defense that point to an alternative theory of a home invasion. The episode maintains a searching and empathetic tone, exploring the many ambiguities and unfinished threads left in the wake of a deeply controversial case.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Interview with Sgt. Doucet: Detective’s Perspective

(03:49–07:31)

• Maggie Latham recounts her off-mic 40-minute conversation with Sergeant Doucet, a lead detective on the Melgar case.
• Doucet was unwavering in his belief in Sandy’s guilt, asserting there were no lingering doubts or reconsiderations over the years.
  • “…he was in absolutely no doubt that Sandra was guilty…There was nothing like that at all. He had a very sort of clear characterization of Jim and Sandy, that Jim was sort of ambitious, he was really healthy…But according to Doucet, Sandy, he said, this is his words, had let herself go.” (05:35)
• Doucet theorized that marital trouble had been brewing and that Jim might have chosen their anniversary to tell Sandy he wanted to leave, framing the murder as potentially premeditated.
• His narrative about Sandy was at odds with what friends and family testified at trial regarding the marriage’s health.

“But I think what Doucet was saying is that nobody really knows what goes on in a relationship other than the two people involved. That was the sort of tenor of what he was saying.” (07:02)

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2. The Power of Prosecution Storytelling & Sexualized Narrative

(07:31–08:44)

• The prosecution’s framing of events, and Doucet’s echoed theory, implied a sexual undertone, painting Sandy as a “sex siren” who lured Jim into a vulnerable position in order to kill him.
• Police found sex toys in the bedroom, which were interpreted as part of this narrative.

“Sergeant Doucet's theory was that, you know...she'd kind of lured Jim into this promise of sex, got him naked and was doing this seductive dance, so to speak, and then she sort of slashed his throat from behind...” (08:12)

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3. Jury Perspectives and Unanswered Doubts

(08:44–13:12)

• Maggie Robinson Katz recaps a call with a male juror, who affirmed the verdict but admitted wrestling with doubt.
  • He wanted Sandy to be innocent and was uneasy about handing down a sentence, even hoping for a mistrial possibility.
  • The juror cited the clarity of the Jacuzzi water in crime scene photos as the most convincing but still peculiar evidence: “he didn’t think that if people were sitting in a bathtub that the water would be that clear if they were in the tub for that long…” (09:23)
• He wondered if Sandy taking the stand might have altered his view but acknowledged it might also have harmed her case.
• Both Maggies speculate about the possible impact of Sandy’s demeanor and the role of gender stereotypes in perceptions of guilt and grief expression.

“We do have these preconceived notions of how we expect people to act in stressful situations, especially women…when people don't fit into what we believe is [the] accurate presentation of…grief, of guilt, of shame, then we start to develop different ideas…” (11:50–12:48)

• Neither host was able to secure a comment from a female juror but noted that every juror seemed to grasp the seriousness of the case.

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4. The Role of Faith: Jehovah’s Witnesses in Life & Courtroom

(18:38–25:43)

• Explores Sandy and Jim’s conversion to Jehovah's Witnesses, how it shaped their community (almost all friends from church), and provided comfort, especially for Sandy in prison.
• Maggie Latham describes how being a Jehovah’s Witness became central to the prosecution's "othering" of Sandy.
  • In court, the prosecution highlighted unusual beliefs (no holidays, strict divorce rules) to set Sandy apart from jurors and cast aspersions.

    "So I think...it was used to make Sandy seem unsympathetic, to portray as an unsympathetic, different other type of person to the jury." (22:06)

• Quotes Colleen Barnett, state prosecutor, on the possible religious motivation for murder instead of divorce:

  "If I get divorced, I get ostracized and I can't talk with my friends. But if I kill him and nobody finds out, I'm not ostracized. And he's just asleep." (23:18)

• Both Maggies clarify that this framing doesn’t wholly line up with real-life Jehovah’s Witness practice, as even close friends acknowledged divorces do happen.
• Sandy’s faith remains a source of strength for her in prison, and continues to ground both her and her daughter Liz.

“She is…I know for a fact that if anyone has a Bible question, they'll say, ‘Oh, I don't know, go ask Ms. Sandy. She'll know.’…one thing that gave her comfort was knowing that she would see Jim again in the Resurrection, knowing that that wasn't the end.” (25:48)

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5. The Defense Theory: Home Invasion

(31:04–41:03)

• The defense suggested the murder was the result of a random home invasion, a not-uncommon crime in Houston at the time.
• Maggie Latham interviewed Mike Glenn, long-time Houston Chronicle crime reporter, and Ron Oliver, former ATF agent who led anti-home-invasion task forces.
• Glenn describes home invasions as “run of the mill…so normal,” rarely covered by press unless especially shocking. Most had a prior connection (e.g. drug trade).
• Ron Oliver’s task force tracked organized crews, primarily Colombian, targeting homes with cash; these crews were careful and heavily armed, rarely used knives, and clearly preferred to avoid homicide charges.
  • The Melgar case didn’t fit the standard pattern due to the use of a knife and lack of forced entry, but some aspects (use of household ties, jewelry theft, bag of valuables) were broadly consistent.
  • Liz once speculated a Colombian crew might be responsible after seeing a police sketch resembling the woman Sandy recalled seeing pre-attack, but this was unconfirmed.

“But they always had guns. That's the thing that Ron Oliver said, they would pistol whip people, they would threaten them at gunpoint, and people were shot and killed. He doesn't remember any stabbings at all. Stabbing is a really sort of intimate, visceral thing that can go wrong. So it's not really the type of thing that a professional gang would do.” (40:27)

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6. Hope for New Evidence: DNA and the Innocence Project

(41:19–42:36)

• Liz Melgar played a crucial role in recalling a potential avenue of exoneration: hair found in Jim’s hand that could now be DNA tested.
  • The Innocence Project of Texas had overlooked this detail, which Liz recalled from digging through the voluminous case file.

“Liz, with her sort of very clever brain, remembered the hair. She remembers the details, and the Innocence Project of Texas…is so lucky to have Liz. She's the one that's been across it from day one, and she's still there.” (41:40)

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7. Closing Reflections: The Toll on Liz and Ongoing Fight for Justice

(42:50–44:28)

• Both Maggies reflect on the difficulty and heartbreak of Liz’s situation—having lost her father to murder and her mother to prison, forced to fight ceaselessly for years.

  • “You just can never imagine being in the situation that Liz is in…having to pick up the pieces of your life and try and carry on after that. It's just so difficult to imagine.” (42:50)

• The episode ends with an update: Liz hopes someday to move to California and provide a home for Sandy if and when she’s released.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sgt. Doucet’s certainty: “He was in absolutely no doubt that Sandra was guilty. He hadn't kind of thought back over the years, 'Oh, maybe she didn't do it.' ...There was nothing like that at all.” (05:35, Maggie Latham recounting conversation)

• Jury struggle: "He really wanted to believe that Sandy was innocent. And then when the actual deliberation happened, he didn't want to give any sort of sentence. He wanted to see if there was any way that there could be a mistrial." (09:23, Maggie Robinson Katz)

• The Othering via Faith: "So...it was used to make Sandy seem unsympathetic, to portray as an unsympathetic, different other type of person to the jury. So she's different to us, therefore she's guilty." (22:06, Maggie Latham)

• Doubt about home invasion theory: "If you're a respectable criminal in Houston and you want to break in, you use a gun or multiple guns...They don't want to kill anybody…As long as they weren't struggling, the invaders were looking to grab the drugs and the money, not so much to leave a bunch of bodies around." (36:13, Ron Oliver via Maggie Latham)

• Liz’s critical role: "She's the one that's been across it from day one, and she's still there." (41:40, Maggie Latham)

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Important Timestamps

• Introduction to the bonus episode and purpose: 02:19–03:49
• Discussion of Det. Doucet and his views: 03:49–07:31
• Analysis of prosecution storytelling/sexualization of Sandy: 07:31–08:44
• Jury deliberation insights: 08:44–13:12
• Jehovah’s Witness faith as defense and prosecution tool: 18:38–25:43
• Home invasion context and expert interviews: 31:04–41:03
• Hope for new DNA evidence: 41:19–42:36
• Reflections on Liz and the ongoing case: 42:50–44:28
• Closing update from Liz: 44:28

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Takeaways

• The Melgar case is defined by ambiguity and sharply split narratives; law enforcement, the jury, and Sandy’s supporters interpret the same facts in deeply opposed ways.
• Storytelling—especially as wielded by the prosecution—had an outsized influence on trial outcome, with gendered and religious “othering” coloring perceptions of guilt.
• Alternative theories like the home invasion, while plausible in some respects, failed to match certain specifics; yet, the defense and Innocence Project hope new DNA testing could provide clarity.
• Liz Melgar’s persistence and investigative skills have driven ongoing appeals, illustrating the impact that family advocacy can have in complex criminal cases.
• The episode closes with a sense of frustration, hope, and commitment to keep pursuing answers.

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For listeners new to the case, this episode provides essential context on how difficult it is to resolve competing narratives in the criminal justice system—and how those left behind keep fighting for truth, no matter how many questions remain unanswered.

Transcript

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

This is an I heart podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, it's Karen and Georgia, and we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Comedy and some light girl math.

[Maggie Latham]

We're about to podcast for you. Watch this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We have to think of something to say after welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years.

[Maggie Latham]

Almost 10 years. 10 years. 10.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what 500 episodes sounds like. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Liz Melgar]

Goodbye.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

On this podcast, Incels, we unpack an emerging mindset.

[Liz Melgar]

I am a loser.

[Maggie Latham]

If I was a woman, I wouldn't date me either.

[Ed Helms]

A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Against women at a deadly tipping point. Tomorrow is the day of retribution. The day in which I will have my revenge. This is Incels. Listen to season one of Incels on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

You get your podcasts.

[Maggie Freeling]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Liz Melgar]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms, host of Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new Snafu every single episode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

32 lost nuclear weapons.

[Maggie Latham]

You.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

You're like, wait, stop.

[Liz Melgar]

What?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, it's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of fabulous guests. Paul Scheer, Angela and Jenna. Nick Kroll, Jordan Klepper. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

BBC Studios. Hey, everyone, it's Maggie. The usual war, we dive in. As you all know by now, this is a series that deals with adult themes. And this bonus episode of Hands Tied will include references to violence and sex. So with that warning in mind, I'm really excited to introduce my colleague and friend, the producer of the series, Maggie Latham. Hi, Maggie.

[Maggie Latham]

Hi, Maggie. How are you?

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

I'm good. Thanks so much for taking the time to do this. I really appreciate it.

[Maggie Latham]

It's really great to catch up with you and hear all the latest.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

So, yeah, two Maggies. There's American Maggie and then British Maggie. And, you know, we spent a lot of time immersing ourselves in the story and also getting a glimpse into Liz's world and what she's been through. But now that we find ourselves at the end, there are still things that we can't stop thinking about, things people told us, details we could only touch on, and conversations that didn't make it into the series. You know, Maggie, I know you had a lot of conversations with people and sometimes it just doesn't work out for a variety of reasons. They either don't want to talk or scheduling doesn't work out. But Maggie, you actually talked to one of the cops at the heart of the story, right?

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah, I did. I tried to speak to him through the Harris County Sheriff's Office press office because Sergeant Doucet is still employed, he's still working there. And they said, oh yeah, we'll reach out to him. And then one evening he rang me up and we had a sort of 40 minute chat. He didn't want to be interviewed on microphone, which is a real shame. But what he told me during that phone call was really, really interesting.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Before we get into the like nitty gritty of everything you talked about, just remind us, who is Sergeant Doucet?

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah, so he and Detective Carrozel were the lead detectives. They were buddies, they'd knew each other since childhood and they both ended up working for Harris County Homicide Unit. And before I spoke to him, I'd done quite a lot of research into the case. And one of the stories that came up was that he nearly died after being gored by a bull on his farm. And he was sort of did make light of it and joked about, you know, all the near death experiences he had as a cop. But actually the nearest he got to death was on his own farm. But yeah, it was a really sort of severe injury and I think he was really, he was lucky to survive. So, you know, he was a veteran detective and he was quite open about talking about the case. We had quite a long phone call about it and I was really hoping that he would agree to an interview. But after the phone call, he didn't want to do anything else.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

If you remember, like what were his versions of events that night?

[Maggie Latham]

Well, to be fair to him, he hadn't kind of restudied the file or gone back through his notes or anything like that. So he was kind of talking off the top of his head. But, I mean, he was in absolutely no doubt that Sandra was guilty. He hadn't kind of thought back over the years, oh, maybe she didn't do it. Oh, this little thing has been niggling away in the back of my head. There was nothing like that at all. He had a very sort of clear characterization of Jim and Sandy, that Jim was sort of ambitious, he was really healthy. He was. I don't know if you remember this, but we came across this a few times, that Jim was really into his health, juicing his diet, he liked to go jogging and he was really fit. But according to Doucet, Sandy, he said, this is his words, had let herself go. As we know, she had a lot of health conditions, but that trouble had been building up in their marriage. This is what Doucet was saying. And Jim had chosen their 32nd wedding anniversary to basically talk about their future, that he was planning to leave her or have a break, and that she knew that this was coming, she knew that it was on the cards. So the murder wasn't necessarily a spur of the moment thing because she was sort of prepared for it. So that's what he said, which was surprising to me because having been through all the court transcripts, the people that were closest to the Melgars gave evidence in court and there wasn't one single person that said anything about their marriage being unhappy. But I think what Doucet was saying is that nobody really knows what goes on in a relationship other than the two people involved. That was the sort of tenor of what he was saying.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Yeah. I find that narrative so interesting. And I wonder if, you know, part of what kind of makes people interested in this case, too, is just how the crime scene was found. It was a romantic evening, their wedding anniversary. There was still that strawberry and the tub of cream on the side of the Jacuzzi. And it seems to me that in a lot of the narratives, and I think in this series, we talked a lot about the power of storytelling and how the prosecution story and sort of Doucet story too, created this narrative of there was this sort of, like, sexual undertone to things. And that.

[Maggie Latham]

I thought that was really interesting, that the police found sex toys under. Under the P. In the bedroom. And Sergeant Doucet's theory was that, you know, he. He kind of painted Sandy as a bit of a sex siren, that she'd kind of lured Jim into this promise of sex, got him naked and was doing this seductive dance, so to speak, and then she sort of slashed his throat from behind and that was again, played out in the trial. So that. That's. That's what he repeated, that that's what he thought had happened.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Yeah, it was very much in the trial, which I think is a perfect segue for us to start talking about the jury. And as you know better than anyone else, Maggie, we tried really hard to speak to the 12 jurors who were on the case, you know, but there were lots of wrong numbers, unanswered calls, messages ignored. But actually, one of the people who we reached out to just got back in touch with us and, yeah, I talked to him yesterday. Oh, yeah, he thinks that they came to the right verdict. But the first thing he said to me is that he really wanted to believe that Sandy was innocent. And then when the actual deliberation happened, he didn't want to give any sort of sentence. He wanted to see if there was any way that there could be a mistrial. Like, he felt really, really bad putting a number to a prison sentence. You know, I asked what the most compelling evidence for him was, and, you know, he thought the most suspect thing was the Jacuzzi and the Jacuzzi water. That picture was really, really laser focused for him, where he didn't think that if people were sitting in a bathtub that the water would be that clear if they were in the tub for that long. If they, you know, did all of the activities that they mentioned in that night to him, wouldn't the bathwater be dirty? When this juror was looking at the photo while it was presented in court to him, it felt suspect. I believe the picture that he's talking about could be the picture that we see where we see the clear bathwater and then at the bottom, there's a knife. And, you know, we didn't talk for super long because he was, like, en route to another job. And so I was talking to him while he was in the car. But the main thing also that he said, which I know we in the story, is that he wonders if he would have changed his mind if Sandy took the stand.

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

But, you know, then in the same breath, he was like, but that could also go the opposite way, because when the prosecution grilled her, like, it could have made her seem even more suspect. So he was like, it's an impossible decision to make. And I think the juror, Aaron Day, said this too, when I spoke to him, but I think it's a case that really stays with them. He thinks about it all the time. And he said that his girlfriend really loves true crime TV shows. And he says sometimes this case comes up and he has to kind of, you know, relive it.

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah. And I suppose from a jury's point of view, it's interesting, isn't it, that they would think that would it have made a difference if Sandy taken the stand? But I think looking at, you know, the police interview that we watched and listened to multiple times, and one of her friends said this to me. She was. I think it was Tammy said she was so worried about how she would come across. She's shy, and she doesn't come across as a kind of warm person, especially in that really high stakes, intense period that, you know, when you're on the stand. So I don't know if that would have helped.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Yeah, I really don't know if that would have helped. I mean, it's. You'll drive yourself mad speculating. And I know Max Seacrest, Sandy's defense attorney, thinks about that all the time, and it really weighs on him. But I think it kind of goes back to what I was talking about with Amanda is we do have these preconceived notions of how we expect people to act in stressful situations, especially women. In a lot of ways, we expect them to be crying in a certain way, to be showing grief in a certain way. And I think we kind of see that narrative of when people don't fit into what we believe is accurate presentation of. Of grief, of guilt, of shame, then we start to develop different ideas on what that could be. And that could, as you were saying, could have happened with Sandy as people could read into, you know, her shyness as something else, or it's impossible to know what would have happened.

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah, totally. Did you ever. I was really keen to speak to a woman. I mean, I don't know if it would necessarily make any difference, but I just. I'd really like to have a take from a female juror because I just wonder if obviously it was a unanimous verdict, but I just wonder if that. If their thoughts over the years would have changed at all or, you know, they'd had any other thoughts.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

It's a great question. And unfortunately, the only people who picked up or called me back were men.

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

But it's a really interesting question, and I think that perspective would have been really interesting to hear. But in every person I've talked to, I do hear that they did feel like it was a very serious thing that they were deciding, depending on how you feel about the verdict that they reached. I. I did feel that each one of them, they understood that this was a person's life. They understood that this was a person's family. But, you know, they. They made the decision based on the evidence that they thought was most likely. So we're going to take a quick break, after which we're going to talk about something that was really central to both Jim and Sandy's lives. And according to her defense team, one of the reasons why she's in prison now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, it's Karen and Georgia. And we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Comedy and some light girl math.

[Maggie Latham]

We're about to podcast for you. Watch this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We have to think of something to say after welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years.

[Maggie Latham]

Almost 10 years. 10 years. 10.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what 500 episodes sounds like. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to My Favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Liz Melgar]

Goodbye.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

All I know is what I've been told and that to have truth is.

[Maggie Freeling]

A whole l. For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Maggie Latham]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer, and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Maggie Latham]

I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or.

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[Liz Melgar]

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[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

32 lost nuclear weapons.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

You're like, wait, stop.

[Liz Melgar]

What?

[Ed Helms]

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[Liz Melgar]

Yes.

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[Georgia Hardstark]

What was that like for you to soft launch into the show?

[Ed Helms]

Sorry, Jenna, I'll be asking the questions today.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

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[Ed Helms]

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[Maggie Robinson Katz]

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[Maggie Robinson Katz]

So another really huge part of the story that we didn't really get to talk a whole lot about, but it was another thing that was used throughout the trial was Sandy and Jim's religion. They were both Jehovah's Witnesses. For me, when we first started, the only thing I really knew about Jehovah's Witnesses were that they proselytized from door to door and that they, they don't celebrate holidays, Christmas, birthdays, Halloween. So I'd love to just have a really top level understanding of the core beliefs for a Jehovah's Witness.

[Maggie Latham]

Well, Jehovah's Witnesses, they believe in God. Their God is called Jehovah and they follow the teachings of the Bible. They believe that we're living in the end of days and that only a chosen few will be resurrected. So basically, death is not the end Death is like a deep sleep awaiting resurrection. And this was sort of relevant in the trial.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

How did, how did Jim and Sandy become Jehovah's Witnesses? Because neither Jim or Sandy were brought up in that religion, right?

[Maggie Latham]

No, that's right. They converted through a cold call. They were interested. They were both open to it and they were adults when they converted.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

So when you say cold call, it was literally someone knocking on their door.

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah, yeah. Just like we've probably all had Jehovah's Witness knocking on our door. But yeah, Sandy and Jim went door to door evangelizing just like other Jehovah's Witnesses. But I think that when Sandy got ill, she couldn't do it anymore, so she sort of didn't go. But Jim carried on.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

And do you know how, you know, being a part of the Jehovah's Witnesses, how that played a day to day role in the Melgar's life?

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah, I think religion was a really big part of their lives. From what I think it was. Diana, Sandy's cousin, told me that because she lived with them for a bit and went to some Bible study classes with them. But all their friends were Jehovah's Witnesses. They went to Bible study classes quite often, several times a week. Jim was an elder in the congregation, which is basically a sort of.

[Liz Melgar]

You.

[Maggie Latham]

Know, one of the sort of mature people that would help sort out problems within that congregation. So he had quite a lot of status within the church. Yeah, I think, I mean, Sandy and Tammy who we interviewed both met at church. I'm not sure all Sandy's friends were members of the congregation. I'm sure she did have. I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure that Tammy had friends outside that. But they were really, really involved and went to lots of parties and celebrations. There were lots of photos shown in court of celebration days that they went to with that with their friends from the church. Yeah, I think, I think it was really central to their life.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

And just a reminder, Tammy is Sandy's friend who saw her right after the interrogation. She was the one who's listening to the news report and then realized that that was Sandy's, that she knew them and she really stuck by Sandy throughout that whole process.

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah. And still goes to see her. Still goes to see her in prison.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Yeah, yeah. So how was their religion used in the court case?

[Maggie Latham]

It's interesting actually remembering what Tammy said because she said religion, it was totally irrelevant to what happened to Jim's death, but it became an important part of the narrative. Built by the prosecution to other Sandy. Well, that's definitely what the Innocence Project of Texas would say. So one of Sandy's close friends was put on the stand as a witness and the prosecution asked her lots of questions about being a Jehovah's Witness and basically just sort of bullet pointed all these things that Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in that lots of other people do. You know, Christmas, you don't believe in Christmas, you don't believe in birthdays, you don't believe in Easter. So I think the. Well, definitely the defense's point was a, it wasn't relevant and B, it was used to make Sandy seem unsympathetic, to portray as an unsympathetic, different other type of person to the jury. So she's different to us, therefore she's guilty.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

So I just want to read this one quote from Colleen Barnett's closing remarks, who was the prosecution attorney in the court case. And she said, I didn't really realize the depth of the religious issue because I didn't know that much about Jehovah's Witnesses and I didn't know that Jehovah's Witnesses didn't allow you to divorce. You cannot divorce unless someone is cheating. And it's very clear that Jamie was not that guy. If I get divorced, I get ostracized and I can't talk with my friends. But if I kill him and nobody finds out, I'm not ostracized. And he's just asleep. It's really interesting that she says this last thing of he's just asleep. Right. Because that, that does directly play into some of the things that we've learned about Jehovah's Witnesses and their beliefs. Right?

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah. So this whole question of divorce is really interesting. And I think that according to the written word of Jehovah's Witnesses and what it says on the website, because I did go back to them and check about this and they said that the only scriptural grounds for a divorce is sexual immorality. The Bible encourages marriage mates to stay together even under less than ideal circumstances. Nevertheless, in extreme situations, such as extreme physical violence, some Christians have decided to separate from a marriage mate. But is that what it says on paper? And actually that doesn't mean that you'd actually murder your spouse instead. Yeah, doesn't make sense.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

And I mean, you know, you talk to both Liz and Tammy and what did they say? As you know, Tammy's still a practicing Jehovah's Witnesses and Liz was.

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah, Tammy said She knows people who are divorced. She knows people who were in the religion who are divorced. So people don't stay together through thick and thin or just in cases of extreme physical abuse. So that's the reality is a bit different. Always is what she said.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

The reality is always different for so many things.

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

You know, this was one thing that when I was writing to Sandy that I was curious to hear if she's still practicing, if she still is a Jehovah's Witness. And she did tell me that it is something that gives her strength while she's in prison. I know Liz said the same thing, that her faith is something that does keep her going. And, you know, you talked to Tammy about this too.

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah. So I talked to Tammy about Sandy's faith and this is what she told me.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

I do believe that Sandy would say.

[Maggie Latham]

Her faith is what's keeping her going in prison.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

She is. I know for a fact that if anyone has a Bible question, they'll say.

[Maggie Latham]

Oh, I don't know, go ask Ms. Sandy. She'll know. So also, Tammy said that after Jim died, her and Sandy would talk about it a lot. And obviously Sandy was, from Tammy's point of view, really, really distraught. But one thing that gave her comfort was knowing that she would see Jim again in the Resurrection, knowing that that wasn't the end. And that aspect of her faith really, really helped her.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

We're going to take another quick break and when we're back, Maggie and I are going to talk about the defense's theory on what happened that night in December.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, it's Karen and Georgia. And we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Comedy and some light girl math.

[Maggie Latham]

We're about to podcast for you watching. Watch this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We have to think of something to say after welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years.

[Maggie Latham]

Almost 10 years. 10 years.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

10.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what 500 episodes sounds like. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to my Favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Liz Melgar]

Goodbye.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

All I know is what I've been told, and that's a half truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Maggie Latham]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer, and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Maggie Latham]

I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff that y' all said. They literally made me say that I.

[Maggie Freeling]

Took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her from Lava for good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Liz Melgar]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms. And welcome back to Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new Snafu Every single episode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

32 lost nuclear weapons.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

You're like, wait, stop.

[Liz Melgar]

What?

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

Ernie Shackleton sounds like, like a solid 70s basketball player who still wore knee pads. Yes. It's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer made me feel good. I'm like, oh, wow, Angela and Jenna, I am so psyched you're here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What was that like for you to soft launch into the show?

[Ed Helms]

Sorry, Jenna, I'll be asking the questions today.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

I forgot who. Whose podcast we were doing.

[Ed Helms]

Nick Kroll. I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's see how it goes. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

I started trying to get pregnant about four years ago.

[Maggie Freeling]

Now we're getting a little bit older.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

And it just kind of felt like the window could be closing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bloomberg and iHeart podcasts present IVF the Kindbody Story, a podcast about a company that promised to revolutionize fertility care. Introducing Kindbody, a new generation of women's health and fertility care. Backed by millions in venture capital and private equity, it grew like a tech startup. While Kindbody did help women start families, it also left behind a stream of disillusioned and angry patients.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

You think you're finally like with the right people in the right hands. And then to find out again that you're just not.

[Maggie Latham]

Don't be fooled by what all the bright and shiny.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen to IVF the Kind Body Story starting September 19th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Welcome back. So far we've heard quite a bit about the prosecution's argument and what the jury made of it. But I also want to talk to you about what Sandy's legal team believe happened, that Jim was killed in a home invasion gone wrong. Now, Maggie, I know you've done a ton of research into this, more than we could possibly fit into the series. And I'm sure you know, everyone who's listening already knows. But what's a home invasion?

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah, we don't have this phrase in the uk so it was a new one on me. But it's basically a robbery in a house when people are at home. So there's people in the house.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

What do you call them?

[Maggie Latham]

Burglaries? Well, there's no specific word because a burglary could be an empty house. Yeah, we haven't got a word for that. So.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Interesting. But I'm curious to hear a little bit about some of the people that you talked to who were on the ground during this time.

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah, I mean, I started off by going through all the archive of the Houston Chronicle, which is like the big regional paper, all the old stories that they covered at the time of the just the amount of home invasions, there were so many headlines about people dying in home invasions, people being shot in home invasions, home invasion gangs targeting residents who kept cash at home. There were just stacks of them. And through that I found Mike Glenn, who is a veteran reporter. He worked on the Houston Chronicle for 20 years. He's now the Pentagon reporter for the Washington Times. And he was in Houston when Jim was murdered. And what he told me was really illuminating.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Yeah. Let's hear a little bit of your conversation with Mike Glenn, the reporter.

[Liz Melgar]

I mean, it's a rough town. It has murders and crime and break ins and there are lots of guns in the city. It's a rough town. It can be.

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah. So it kept you very busy as a crime reporter.

[Liz Melgar]

I mean, really, that's all I did, you know, for almost 20 years is covering crime. And, you know, there was so much of it that you would just go from scene to scene to scene. People would ask me, how many like dead bodies, quote unquote, have you seen on the job? And I said, I stopped counting. I really, I have no idea how many murder scenes or murder victims I've seen. I mean, murder victims, car fatalities, that sort of thing.

[Maggie Latham]

So how did it work then? Do you get tipped off by the police? Did you listen to police radio and then turn up at the house?

[Liz Melgar]

A lot of police radio. I had multiple scanners. I had scanners in my car, I had scanners in my office. And I would hear something going on and I would, you know, jump in my car and rush down. That was my mindset. You know, you get there first and you get there as fast as you can because that's where most of the information comes in the first moments of the scene. Because, as you know, I don't know if it's the same in the uk, but you know, US television news, especially the local variety, you know, if it bleeds, it leads.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

So what could he tell you about the violent home invasions?

[Maggie Latham]

I mean, the thing that really shocked me is that he said these crimes were just so run of the mill, so normal, that he didn't even bother turning up at them. I mean, he was the crime reporter, but he was overwhelmed with the amount of crime, so he couldn't report on all of them.

[Liz Melgar]

In Houston, with my experience of violent home invasions were pretty common events. And then unless there was something some other variable involved, if somebody was murdered during it, or if it was in a particularly upscale neighborhood, very rare, that's really the only way that would really pique my interest. It's not that I disregarded. In fact, I had so many other events on my plate that I had to deal with. The thing in Houston is that in my experience, that's only my experience, so I can't even say if it's absolute. But in my experience, most home invasions, there was usually some kind of connection with the victim somehow or they were involved in drug trafficking. A lot of the home divisions I covered were drug traffickers because they would try to go there to rob a drug dealer. That happened a lot. Kick the door down and rob a drug dealer. It was very rare when these home invasions where the victim was some kind of completely anonymous citizen who had no connection at all.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Did he cover the Melgar's case at all?

[Maggie Latham]

No. So again, like I said, they were so common that that would have just been another kind of run of the mill home invasion from his point of view. So he didn't cover it. But from what he told me, it clearly didn't fit into the usual home invasion pattern that was rife in Houston at the Time, because home invasions didn't normally involve knives.

[Liz Melgar]

I've been to a couple of stabbing crimes, and that was usually because that was a weapon of opportunity at the sign. You know, somebody picks up a steak knife from the cutlery drawer and goes at it. But if you're a respectable criminal in Houston and you want to break in, you use a gun or multiple guns, they really. They don't want to kill anybody because in Texas, that turns it into, you know, a death penalty case. So they would tie these people up quite often as long as they weren't struggling. In my experience, the invaders were looking to grab the drugs and the money, not so much to leave a bunch.

[Maggie Latham]

Of bodies around, just going deeper into the same issue. That's when I found out about this task force that had been set up. So it was because the home invasion problem was so big in Houston at the time especially, task force was set up with a lot of different partners. So Houston PD were involved, federal agencies were involved. But I found the guy that led that task force. He's called Ron Oliver, who's a retired ATF special agent. That's the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. And his intelligence told him that it was a group of Colombian immigrants who were sort of behind these violent home invasions. He told me that they were often in the country illegally and carried fake IDs. And he worked to try and crack the crews that were carrying out the invasions, get them quickly through the court system and then deport them. So that was the sort of strategy behind it. There were other crews, other gangs. He didn't actually call them gangs. He called them crews that were not Colombians, but that that was his particular target. So here was Ron Oliver chasing these Colombian gangs. And Liz had read independently about a home invasion that happened in a residential area very similar to the one that her mum and dad lived in. And it was led by a Colombian woman. And there was a photo image of her in the paper. And when she showed it to Sandy, she said Sandy was like, oh, this looks a bit like the woman that she remembers sort of catching a glimpse of just before she was tied up. So, you know, Liz thought there might be a link with the Colombian home invasion gangs and thinking that maybe they were behind what happened to her parents. But when I talked to Ron Oliver, he again said there were some similar patterns. You know, again, they targeted people who had cash, but it was very rare for them to use knives. They didn't stab people. They generally shot people. And they were pretty sophisticated. They often target a particular household and watched them for several days, knew when people were coming and going, that kind of thing.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

So it seems to me like, yes, it was a rampant problem during this time. Yes, there were homes that were targeted and there was one that was more violent than the other. But still, to these two people who you talk to, not everything lined up or didn't fit the patterns for what happened in the Melgars case, Is that right?

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah, I mean, there were a lot of patterns that did fit. So for example, the fact that there wasn't any break in. They would often rush the door using a ruse, like a fake delivery, or they used a woman to knock on the door. So that was, you know, there were no signs of a break in at the Melgar, which made police think that it couldn't have been a home invasion. But that just isn't the case because in a lot of these other home invasions, there wasn't a sign of a break in. It was very common for them to tie people up. They used robe ties, telephone cords, zip ties. Sometimes they came equipped, but other times they used what was to hand. They would take pillowcases off the bed to load up the stolen goods. They were after cash, firearms, jewelry. Remember that in the Melgars there was that green and black backpack which was actually Liz's from a childhood.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

The bag that had the Xbox in it, right?

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And it had 20 items of Sandy's jewelry as well that was found in the garage. So, you know, could that have been another similarity? Was that another parallel? But they always had guns. That's the thing that Ron Oliver said, they would pistol whip people, they would threaten them at gunpoint, and people were shot and killed. He doesn't remember any stabbings at all. Stabbing is a really sort of intimate, visceral thing that can go wrong. So it's not really the type of thing that a professional gang would do. Yeah, that's what he said.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Yeah. And, you know, I think that this is the hard thing about stories like this is we may never know exactly what happened. And this is exactly why we dive in and talk to experts and talk to all sorts of different people on it. And.

[Maggie Latham]

But as we heard last week, you know, this case is not set in stone. Things are moving all the time. Things are changing. I mean, for Liz, it's incredibly slow, but things are changing. For example, the DNA with the hair could be quite significant.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Yeah. They are allowed to test the DNA or to test the hairs that were found in Jim's hand.

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah. And what really strikes me about that is it was Liz that brought that to the attention of the Innocence Project. When we were on the phone on that conference call with them, they had sort of overlooked. I mean, not through any fault of theirs, but they had overlooked the hair. Just because the case is so complex and it's gone back over so many years. But Liz, with her sort of very clever brain, remembered the hair. She remembers the details, and the Innocence Project of Texas. And Sandy is so lucky to have Liz. She's the one that's been across it from day one, and she's still there.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Yeah, I actually forgot about that. I mean, that is where, like, Liz is such an incredible investigator and has really combed through this entire case, and I can only imagine what an asset she is to the Innocence Project, where she knows it in and out.

[Maggie Latham]

She is her mother's strongest advocate, isn't she?

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Yeah, she is for sure. So in kind of wrapping up this conversation, is there anything that you'd like to share? Any final thoughts on working with the story or.

[Maggie Latham]

I mean, you just can never imagine being in the situation that Liz is in, you know, losing your mother and your father in those sort of circumstances and having to pick up the pieces of your life and try and carry on after that. It's just so difficult to imagine.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

For sure.

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Very well said. I think that that is exactly true. And it's just a shame that, you know, she never got to fully grieve both her mom and her dad, and she just has to fight every single day and continues to fight.

[Maggie Latham]

Well, nice working with you, Maggie. Yeah, you too. Thank you.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for doing this. It was really great. Yeah, it made me feel. We were on our, like, constant phone calls just figuring out this story, so it was good to relive that with you.

[Maggie Latham]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

As I said in the last episode, we'll continue to follow what happened. So please stay subscribed and I'll bring you any updates when I can. But I want to end the series with a thought from Liz. We caught up with her recently, and she told us she's thinking about moving back to the US To California one day, to a house big enough to have relatives stay and big enough to have Sandy live with her and her family when she gets out of prison. Thank you again for listening to the series. I'm Maggie Robinson Katz signing off.

[Maggie Latham]

Foreign.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

You've been listening to Hands Tied. I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and the producer is Maggie Latham. Sound design in mix is by Tom Brignall. Our script consultant is Emma Weatherall. Production support is from Dan McCann Marcini, Elena Boateng and Mabel Finnegan Wright. And our production executive is Laura Jordan Raul. The series was developed by Anya Saunders and emma Shah. At iHeart, the managing executive producer is Christina Everett. And for BBC Studios, the executive producer is Joe Kent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, it's Karen and Georgia. And we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Comedy and some light girl math.

[Maggie Latham]

We're about to podcast for you. Watch this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We have to think of something to say after welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years.

[Maggie Latham]

Almost 10 years. 10 years. 10.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what 500 episodes sounds like. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Liz Melgar]

Goodbye.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

On this podcast, Incels, we unpack an emerging mindset.

[Liz Melgar]

I am a loser.

[Maggie Latham]

If I was a woman, I wouldn't date me either.

[Ed Helms]

A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

Against women at a deadly tipping point. Tomorrow is the day of retribution. The day in which I will have my revenge. This is Incels. Listen to season one of Incels on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

You get your podcasts.

[Maggie Freeling]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist, and a handful of girls. Girls came forward with a story.

[Liz Melgar]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms, host of Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new Snafu. Every single episode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

32 lost nuclear weapons.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

You're like, wait, stop.

[Liz Melgar]

What?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, it's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of fabulous guests. Paul Scheer, Angela and Jenna. Nick Kroll, Jordan, Gordon Klepper. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Latham]

This is an iHeart podcast.