Episode 2 - The Interview

Summary

Hands Tied: Episode 2 - The Interview

Introduction

In the second episode of Hands Tied, titled "The Interview," host Maggie Robinson Katz delves deeper into the harrowing events surrounding the mysterious murder of Jim Melgar and the subsequent interrogation of his wife, Sandy Melgar. This episode provides an intimate look into the police investigation, the courtroom drama, and Sandy's emotional struggle to convey her version of the tragic night.

Setting the Scene

The episode opens on December 22, 2012, the night Jim and Sandy Melgar celebrate their 32nd wedding anniversary at their favorite restaurant, Los Cucos. The couple's affection and plans for retirement paint a picture of a typical, loving relationship. However, the serene evening takes a dark turn when they return home, leading to the shocking discovery of Jim's body and Sandy being found bound in a closet.

The Police Interview

Initial Interrogation

At 9:42 PM, Sandy Melgar is brought into the Harris County Police Station for questioning. The interview begins with basic questions about the previous day’s events. Sandy appears traumatized and physically distressed, exhibiting signs of exhaustion and pain.

• Detective Carrizel (14:09): "Case number 12176269 is Sunday, December 23, 2012."

• Sandy (15:09): "Yesterday, we went out to eat."

Inconsistencies and Health Issues

As the interview progresses, detectives probe into the specifics of that night. Sandy struggles to recall details, attributing her foggy memory to her health issues, including recent seizures, hip replacements, and lupus. Her difficulty in remembering certain events raises suspicions among the detectives.

• Sandy (18:19): "I just don't remember more. I just don't."

• Detective Carrizel (30:04): "You need to understand that we go to all extremes. We're gonna find out everything about you."

Sandy’s Account of the Night

Sandy recounts the events leading up to Jim’s murder, describing how they spent hours in the Jacuzzi discussing their future plans. According to her, Jim left the tub to address their barking dogs, after which she lost consciousness.

• Sandy (17:35): "I say one or two in the morning."

• Detective Doucet (33:00): "Has your husband ever told you he was going to leave you?"

• Sandy (33:03): "Yeah. We were making plans. Who? He was going to leave me."

Accusations and Defense

Detectives challenge Sandy’s account, pointing out discrepancies and the absence of any sounds of violence despite the active Jacuzzi. Sandy vehemently denies hearing anything and maintains her innocence, insisting that she did not murder her husband.

• Detective Carrizel (34:02): "I don't care if you've got a tank cranked up in that bathroom with you, you're gonna hear something."

• Sandy (35:04): "Oh, my gosh. Just. You know what? I didn't hear anything. Stop already."

Emotional Breakdown

As the interrogation intensifies, Sandy becomes increasingly emotional, repeatedly denying any involvement in Jim’s death while expressing her confusion and fear.

• Sandy (36:46): "I need a lawyer. I'm not talking anymore because you guys are just trying to torture me here."

Detectives' Persuasion Tactics

The detectives employ relentless questioning, attempting to break Sandy down and elicit a confession. They argue the improbability of her not hearing the violence, suggesting that her physical ailments might be a facade to mask her guilt.

• Detective Doucet (32:24): "Why would you take a polygraph?"

• Detective Carrizel (35:14): "I need you to help me on this."

Sandy’s Final Plea

Exhausted and overwhelmed, Sandy continues to assert her innocence, pleading for understanding and reiterating her love for her husband.

• Sandy (37:00): "Yes, I love my husband."

• Detective Carrizel (37:15): "Did you kill your husband?"

• Sandy (37:21): "No, I didn't."

Aftermath and Reflections

By 1:14 AM on Christmas Eve, Sandy has endured a grueling interrogation without providing any incriminating evidence against herself. The episode highlights the emotional and psychological toll such investigations can have on individuals, especially those with pre-existing health conditions.

Insights and Analysis

Hands Tied Episode 2 offers a poignant exploration of the complexities involved in criminal investigations, particularly when questioning the only surviving witness. Sandy’s health issues, combined with the detectives' aggressive tactics, paint a challenging scenario where truth and deception intertwine. The episode raises critical questions about the reliability of testimonies from individuals under extreme stress and physical distress.

Conclusion

"The Interview" serves as a crucial installment in Hands Tied, shedding light on the investigative process and the personal turmoil experienced by those ensnared in the quest for justice. As Sandy Melgar continues her fight for answers, listeners are left pondering the true nature of the events that led to Jim Melgar's untimely death and the quest to uncover the real perpetrator.

Notable Quotes

• Sandy Melgar (15:09): "We went out to eat."
• Detective Carrizel (30:04): "You need to understand that we go to all extremes."
• Sandy Melgar (36:46): "I need a lawyer. I'm not talking anymore because you guys are just trying to torture me here."
• Detective Doucet (33:00): "Has your husband ever told you he was going to leave you?"
• Sandy Melgar (37:21): "No, I didn't."

Final Thoughts

Episode 2 of Hands Tied masterfully combines narrative storytelling with real-time interrogation footage to immerse listeners in the heart-wrenching quest for truth and justice. As the series progresses, the layers of the Melgar case unfold, promising deeper insights and unexpected revelations.

Transcript

[Host]

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[Maggie Robinson Katz]

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[Cindy Crawford]

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[Host]

Limited time and while supplies last.

[Cindy Crawford]

See why Nissan is number one for new vehicle quality among mainstream brands? Learn [e-mail] For J.D. power 2025 award information visit jdpower.com awards Does Friendly have a taste? If it does, it's probably like hello's peppermint flavored anti plaque and Whitening toothpaste. Brush away plaque, show tartar who's boss and remove surface stains to naturally whiten. Hello's thoughtful and flavor forward products make brushing your teeth feel like a confetti filled bathroom dance party. So say hello to hello with the always cruelty free never tested on animals toothpaste that's made to spread smiles. Visit hel visitproducts.com and let hello add some everyday yay into your life. BBC Studios Hey, I'm Maggie. Just a quick heads up before we start. The series does contain some descriptions of violence and deals with adult themes. Jim and Sandy are at their favorite restaurant, Los Cucos, their most loved dishes spread across the table. There's a fish Cancun for Sandy and a gorache for Jim, which is something like a thick corn tortilla topped with beans, meat and salsa. Jim's had his hair freshly cut for the occasion. In the pictures I've seen of him, he looks kind of like your classic dad. He's got a button down collared shirt tucked into khakis, his BlackBerry clipped to his belt. Jim's petite, petite at only 57 with a slim frame and wire glasses. Sandy's just a bit shorter with shoulder length blonde hair and tight square framed glasses. That night she's a vision in brown with brown slacks, sweater and boots. I can imagine her laughing as she leans in, her hand cupped around a pina colada. It's December 22, 2012, and Jim and Sandy are celebrating their 32nd wedding anniversary, an amazing achievement for any relationship. They finish their meal, pay the bill and head out into the cool Texas night, stopping at CVS to pick up some mixers for drinks, Sprite and Coke. They make their way back home, leaving the suburban sprawl of shopping centers and chain restaurants to the tree lined street of their cul de sac. They arrive home and pull into their garage. Sandy enters first while Jim follows behind, his hands full with the leftovers from dinner and the drinks they purchased at cvs. Sandy heads to the master bedroom and into the adjoining bathroom. She begins filling up the corner Jacuzzi, definitely big enough for two. You see where this is going? Grab some rum and vodka, a bowl of strawberries and a tub of whipped cream. Jim follows behind. They undress and get into the Jacuzzi, have sex talk. They somehow spend two hours in the.

[Host]

Tub.

[Cindy Crawford]

But at some point the couple's four dogs began barking. A neighbor has complained before and both Jim and Sandy are conscious to not make it a big issue. Jim jumps out of the tub, wraps a towel around his waist and brings the dogs in. Sandy stays in a little bit longer, lingering in the now lukewarm water, but when Jim doesn't come back, she gets out the Jacuzzi jet still whirring. She puts on some underwear, a red nightgown, black robe and fluffy socks, then sits on an ornate brown satin chair with curling white vines and begins lotioning her legs. But after that, according to Sandy, the world goes black. Around 16 hours later, on December 23, Sandy and Jim's family are gathered outside their house, having just discovered his dead body and found Sandy tied up and shut in a closet. They had come over for dinner, but instead they now find themselves being interviewed by the police, who are trying to piece together what's happened.

[Advertiser]

Where was your aunt located at?

[Host]

I saw her in the restroom.

[Advertiser]

Which restroom?

[Host]

The master bedroom. There's a restroom in there?

[Advertiser]

How much of her did you see.

[Host]

In the master bedroom her face? She looked very pale and she was crying a lot and it looked like she was going to pass out when she saw my uncle. I went to go get her water.

[Advertiser]

And. Are you close with Jamie?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Advertiser]

He's your uncle.

[Host]

He's my uncle.

[Advertiser]

And what do you know about his wife Sandra?

[Host]

Sandy? Honestly, I'm.

[Advertiser]

Are you close with her?

[Host]

No, no, I talk more to my uncle.

[Advertiser]

Well what kind of person is she that you know of?

[Host]

She's a nice person.

[Cindy Crawford]

She's always outgoing, always hanging out with.

[Host]

My mom and my uncles, my other uncles ex wife.

[Advertiser]

Let me ask you this. You were sitting in that patrol car up there when we brought her out there and photographed her. And she's on a cane. You ever see her walk with a cane before?

[Host]

I've never seen her on a cane before. No, I haven't.

[Advertiser]

The last time you saw her, she walked okay?

[Cindy Crawford]

Yes, she was fine.

[Host]

She came to my house December. I believe it was December 8th or December 9th. It was on a Sunday.

[Advertiser]

We're trying to figure out what happened. Any problems between the two of them lately that you know of?

[Host]

No, they always look like a happy couple to me.

[Cindy Crawford]

They ask similar questions to the rest of the family, you know.

[Advertiser]

Have you heard your other family members that are related to them? Have you heard them talk about any problems between them? No, no. No problem at all. Everything was good. Everything was good. You understand something's happened here? Yeah, I do understand. And that's a total shock to you, huh? It's a complete shock. You don't suspect anything happening or you don't have any ideas of your own about. I mean, I don't even know if. I don't know if somebody broke in the house or I have no clue. I don't know. Okay.

[Cindy Crawford]

I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and from BBC Studios and I Heart Podcasts, this is Hands Tied episode two, the Interview.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

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[Howie Mandel]

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[Advertiser]

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[Cindy Crawford]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like I never liked being told oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age. Every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com it's now 9:42pm in Sandy Melgar finds herself in a small white room in Harris County Police Station, Texas. She's hunched over a purple chair with her head buried in her hands, her long blonde hair covering her face. She's still wearing the thin black robe, those fluffy socks. No shoes, but she's managed to change into a pair of jeans. Sandy has declined going to the hospital and getting checked out, but agrees to an interview with the police. As the door creaks open, Sandy sits up, lifting her face and tucking her hair behind her ears. The dark circles around her eyes stand out against her waxy, pale skin. A wooden cane is hooked over the arm of her chair. Two stocky detectives enter wearing almost matching outfits, dark khaki chinos with one in a white shirt, the other in a soft baby blue.

[Advertiser]

Two of those because they're kind of small glasses.

[Cindy Crawford]

One of the cops places two small cups on the square table next to Sandy. The room is cramped so they have to do an awkward sidestep as they take their seats on either side of her.

[Host]

I didn't take a picture of my phone. Pageable titles.

[Cindy Crawford]

That's Sandy. Her voice is soft and weak. She points to her feet, telling the detectives that they didn't take a picture of her ankles. They were tied as well as her hands. The detectives assure her that they'll get to that in a second.

[Advertiser]

I need to do a statement from you, okay? That's why we're here. And have a little recorder and do a little statement and get some questions from you answered.

[Cindy Crawford]

That's Detective Ruben Sean Carrizel, but everyone calls him Sean. He's leading the murder investigation.

[Advertiser]

Case number 12176269 is Sunday, December 23, 2012. This is Sean Kerrizo with Harris County Sheriff's Office Homicide 60 Henry 42.

[Cindy Crawford]

He's bald, middle aged, a bit what I expect when I hear both the words Texas and cop. I can imagine he'd be comfortable grilling both meets and witnesses.

[Advertiser]

Also with me is Sergeant Doucet.

[Cindy Crawford]

Sergeant James Doucet is seated directly on Sandy's right. He's also in his middle age with a similar Texas je ne sais quoi.

[Advertiser]

Sergeant Jose, can you identify yourself? I'm 60 Henry 39. Okay.

[Cindy Crawford]

He's lucky to even be in the room just two years ago, he was gored by a bull named Peanut and survived, leaving him with scars and the ultimate bar story. The two detectives go way back. They're childhood friends and both have come straight from the crime scene to the Harris County Sheriff's Office.

[Advertiser]

Okay, ma', am, can you identify yourself for me?

[Host]

Sandra Milgar.

[Cindy Crawford]

As the only survivor and a potential witness to her husband's murder, the detectives need as much detail as they can get from Sandy and as quickly as possible.

[Advertiser]

Let's start from the morning. When you woke up today, where were you at?

[Host]

Yes, in my closet.

[Cindy Crawford]

Sandy's hard to hear. She says in my closet this morning?

[Host]

Yes.

[Advertiser]

Okay. What about yesterday? What started yesterday?

[Host]

Yesterday, which would be Saturday. We went out to eat.

[Advertiser]

Where time are we at?

[Host]

Mexican restaurant. I think it was Bravos were.

[Advertiser]

And what town was that?

[Host]

No, it wasn't no Bravos. It was Cocos. Cocos? I'm gonna say about eight. I mean, I'm just guessing. I don't know.

[Advertiser]

Okay, so approximately 8 o'. Clock.

[Cindy Crawford]

Sandy sounds a little sketchy. She's slow to speak, vague and unsure of details. But I can imagine she must be exhausted and traumatized. Maybe. No wonder she can't remember certain things.

[Host]

For a long while.

[Advertiser]

What time did you get home?

[Host]

Probably midnight. I'm just guessing. I don't know.

[Advertiser]

When you got home, what did y' all do?

[Host]

We made some drinks. We got in a Jacuzzi where they.

[Cindy Crawford]

Had sex and talked.

[Advertiser]

And what were y' all talking about?

[Host]

My daughter.

[Cindy Crawford]

That's their daughter, Liz.

[Host]

His job. He was gonna be kind. And then we're gonna go on a trip. That's it. Just stop.

[Cindy Crawford]

Her hand lightly rests on her face for a second as her voice catches the memory. Almost too much to bear. Jim was going to retire next year. They were going to travel. I go back and forward over the interview, trying to figure out what the cops are thinking and land on the moment they zero in on the events leading up to Jim's murder, specifically focusing on the moment Jim got out of the Jacuzzi to check on their four barking dogs.

[Advertiser]

So the time when he got out to go check on the dogs, to go move the dog, what time was that?

[Host]

I say one or two in the morning.

[Advertiser]

And when he did that, what kind of noises did you hear?

[Host]

Nothing. The Jacuzzi was still running. Even when I got out, the Jacuzzi was running. You turn it on?

[Advertiser]

The Jacuzzi was making noise. It was pretty loud. And you couldn't hear anything over that?

[Host]

I didn't hear Anything?

[Advertiser]

Did you hear anybody scream?

[Host]

No.

[Advertiser]

Or you could hear the dogs barking?

[Host]

Yeah, because they were right outside our window.

[Cindy Crawford]

Sandy says June was taking a while with the dogs, so she got out of the Jacuzzi and went to her closet to get dressed.

[Host]

Several hours later, I woke up and realized I was tied up, and I tried to flip over, and then I kind of got stuck where I was for the rest of the time. That's all I remember. That's it. I mean, I would tell you more if I remember more. I just don't.

[Advertiser]

Do you have pain?

[Host]

Do I have pain if I have pain in my head?

[Cindy Crawford]

She touches the left side of her head.

[Advertiser]

Like what?

[Host]

Like I got hit on the head. I don't know if I fell or was pushed or what, but just, like, all alongside this side. And then I remember I woke up and I thought I had had a seizure because my muscles hurt, and my head was just hurting real bad. And usually lately, I've been having trouble with controlling my seizure.

[Cindy Crawford]

So Sandy has a laundry list of health issues, something she says she's been struggling with even more in recent months. Alongside the seizures, Sandy has had both her hips replaced, and she also suffers from lupus, which, for whatever reason, she doesn't disclose to the cops. If you don't know, lupus is a really serious autoimmune disease that causes extreme fatigue and joint and muscle pain. Another possible reason why she's foggy, not making sense, can't remember details. She's not well, but the cops aren't sure.

[Host]

I hurt all over, and my head hurts.

[Advertiser]

How often do you have seizures like that?

[Host]

I've been getting them more lately. I'm not able to drive anymore.

[Advertiser]

How frequently?

[Host]

At least once a month, maybe. The auras. I get them all the time.

[Advertiser]

Do you take medication for that?

[Host]

Okay.

[Advertiser]

And when was the last time you had one of those before today?

[Host]

About a month ago, at home.

[Advertiser]

And what happens when you have those seizures? What's the symptoms? How do you feel when you have those?

[Host]

I have oral signs that tell me that I'm going to have one. And it's, like, very forgetful. More than usual.

[Advertiser]

Did you have one of those today?

[Host]

Yeah, I've been having it all week. Actually, all month.

[Advertiser]

So have you been forgetting things all.

[Host]

Month and right after? Sometimes I can't even tell you my name. Okay.

[Advertiser]

And let me ask you this. And I asked you before, you didn't answer my question. Why are we here? Do you know what has happened today?

[Host]

My husband was murdered.

[Advertiser]

How?

[Host]

I don't know. I don't think he was shot.

[Advertiser]

What do you understand? What do you understand that happened? Who told you that he was murdered?

[Host]

I saw him.

[Advertiser]

You did?

[Host]

Yes. When they untied me, I heard hysterical screaming and I ran over there and I checked his pulse. Okay. To see if there's anything we could do. Yeah, I saw him. Okay?

[Advertiser]

I didn't know that.

[Host]

I saw him.

[Cindy Crawford]

As Sandy's voice breaks, she puts one hand across her forehead, pushing up her blonde bangs, eyes cast downwards.

[Advertiser]

And you touched him? Touched his wrist.

[Host]

I touched his neck. Gotcha. He's freezing cold. And I know I shouldn't have touched him, but then I covered him and I know I shouldn't have done that. What'd you go wrong with something that was laying next to him? A jacket. I got his blue jacket. He was very good at me. He took very good care of me.

[Cindy Crawford]

Sandy's sobbing, head down on her knees, her hair falling forward.

[Host]

And I have to tell my daughter. I have to tell my daughter.

[Cindy Crawford]

I've got to tell my daughter, she says between her sobs. Liz, thousands of miles away, having no idea what her mom is going through in this moment.

[Advertiser]

Sandra, part of our job is we work hundreds and hundreds of murders, okay? And sometimes we. We work cold blooded killers. They're just on the street that would just kill somebody for nothing, okay? Then sometimes we work murders that they're an argument and something happens, okay? There's two different types of people, you understand? Because if you're arguing with somebody and you lose it, your temper and an argument.

[Host]

That's not what happened. That's not what happened. And I think I'm gonna stop talking now because I think I'm gonna need a lawyer because I know how this works.

[Advertiser]

Let me ask you something. It's all procedure for us to talk to you, okay? We want to find out the answer to this as bad as you do, okay? We do. We really do. And we're not trying to cause you trouble or cause you pain, but we have a procedure. Are you familiar with a polygraph exam?

[Cindy Crawford]

A lie detector test?

[Advertiser]

Would you be willing to take a polygraph exam? He's probably here now.

[Host]

I can do it now.

[Cindy Crawford]

No, not now. She says.

[Host]

I'm just a nervous wreck right now.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

You know that fantasy where you run into your ex while looking impossibly cute and wildly unbothered? Hill House makes the perfect dress for that moment. Or if you're just running errands, Hill House Home is the brand behind the viral nap dress, known for its signature smocking, ultra flattering fit and comfort that makes it a favorite for just about everyone. Celebrities like Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo, Anne Hathaway and Mindy Kaling have all been spotted in Hill House. These dresses are the definition of versatile. Perfect for running errands in the morning and stylish enough for dinner or a party that night. And it's not all they carry. They started with bedding back in 2016 and now you'll find bathrobes, pajamas, children's clothes, and maternity, all with the cutest prints. And it's so true. The hardest time picking out one nap dress because the prints are so dreamy and beautiful. But now that I have it, I'm going to wear it all day, every day. I'm going to throw on my leather jacket at night and look like a total badass. Cowboy boots or cute heels. Whatever it is, this nap dress can make it look classy. You look like that classy lady you see at the airport. Hill House makes fun fashion that makes you feel good. Get 15% off your first order of $100 or more at hillhousehome.com with code murder15. That's murder15 for 15% off@hill househome.com goodbye.

[Howie Mandel]

I can't tell you how often I hear, oh, I'm a little ocd. I like things neat. That's not ocd. I'm Howie Mandel and I know this because I have ocd. Actual OCD causes relentless unwanted thoughts. What if I did something terrible and forgot? What if I'm a bad person? Why am I thinking this terrible thing? It makes you question absolutely everything and you'll do anything to feel better. OCD is debilitating, but it's also highly treatable with the right kind of therapy. Regular talk therapy doesn't cut it. OCD needs specialized therapy. That's why I want to tell you about NO cd. NOCD is the world's largest virtual therapy provider for ocd. Their licensed therapists provide specialized therapy virtually and it's covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, visit nocd.com to schedule a free 15 minute call and learn more. That's nocd.com Lenovo is built for creators.

[Advertiser]

Who don't wait for inspiration. They chase it with inventive tech, built in AI tools and seamless performance. Lenovo devices powered by Intel Core Ultra processors are designed to bring your wildest ideas to life faster. That's the power of Lenovo with Intel inside. Enjoy flexible financing rewards on every purchase and free shipping. And students get special offers when you create an [e-mail].

[Cindy Crawford]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but, like, I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn [e-mail] it's just after midnight now, and Sandy Melgar walks back into the cramped interview room, leaning heavily on a cane. She sits down and rests the wooden stick against her chair. Sergeant Doucet comes in and takes the seat nearest her.

[Advertiser]

How you feeling?

[Host]

Freezing.

[Advertiser]

I tried to turn the air down. This building keeps us constant temperature. You know, I'll be upfront and honest with you. There's some things that don't add up in your story of what you're telling me. Okay, maybe you can help me understand it. Now, you said you've been married 32 years and you were supposed to celebrate that on the 12th.

[Cindy Crawford]

December 12th is their actual anniversary, but they were celebrating on the 22nd.

[Advertiser]

Well, what reason was it that you didn't?

[Host]

I wasn't feeling well.

[Advertiser]

Okay. I noticed you walked with a cane. Why? Why is that?

[Host]

I've had my hips replaced and I have a lot of joint pain.

[Advertiser]

From how long ago did you have the hips replaced?

[Host]

My left one about 10 years ago, or 11, and then the right one about five years after that.

[Advertiser]

You've been walking with a cane ever since the hip replacement?

[Host]

It's just.

[Advertiser]

When did you start?

[Host]

It's on and off. When it's cold, my joints hurt more, but lately it's been more often because.

[Advertiser]

So how long you think you've been walking with a cane now?

[Host]

A couple weeks. But some when the days are warmer, I don't really use it.

[Cindy Crawford]

From the detective's point of view, Sandy's poor health doesn't rule her out as a suspect. Quite the opposite. Maybe she's playing it up using a cane. She doesn't need to elicit sympathy.

[Advertiser]

You know, something I want you to understand is that when we investigate something like this, Sandra, I want you to understand that we go to all extremes. You know, we don't quit. You're going to see a lot of me. You're gonna see a lot of my partner. You are. We're Gonna find out everything about you. We're gonna find out everything about your husband. We're going to talk to everybody in your neighborhood. We're going to talk to everybody that you're related to. We're going to learn everything.

[Host]

Else, too, because it's. It's not me.

[Advertiser]

It's just so important that you be honest with us. You know, I told you, it's protocol that we start close to that victim. That's you, okay? And you know, we didn't just walk into this ball game yesterday. And we can tell a whole lot of stuff by the way that when we start with people, the way they react, the way they act, you need to understand that may not always show. May not always let that be be known to you. But we're no fools. You need to understand that, too, okay? And we've been doing this long enough where there's things we recognize. You gotta understand that, too, okay? We talk to people all the time. I never said you did. I did ask you to take a polygraph test. Yes, I did.

[Host]

And I know shaking and I'm freezing.

[Advertiser]

And what's your. What's your explanation, though? What's your excuse for not taking one? It's not holding water, Sandra. I'm just going to be honest with you. It's not.

[Host]

I just don't want to take it. And then it's used against me.

[Cindy Crawford]

Now the gloves are off.

[Advertiser]

Are you covering something up? Sandra, why would you take a polygraph?

[Host]

Because I'm so stressed right now, I can't even think straight.

[Advertiser]

It's not a good reason.

[Host]

Well, I just don't want it used against me, that's all. I'll take it. But not just.

[Advertiser]

Why would we have to use it against you?

[Host]

Because I'm stressed. And I mean, I just.

[Advertiser]

Beyond that. Has your husband ever hit you?

[Host]

No.

[Advertiser]

No physical?

[Host]

No. Never.

[Advertiser]

Did your husband tell you something tonight that made you black out? No.

[Host]

No. Doesn't work that way.

[Advertiser]

Has your. Would your husband have a girlfriend on side or maybe a jealous boyfriend would come?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Advertiser]

Has your husband ever told you he was going to leave you?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Advertiser]

Never talked to him.

[Host]

Plans. We were making plans. Who? He was going to leave me.

[Advertiser]

Do you think he's ever told one of his family members that he was.

[Cindy Crawford]

Going to leave you to Sandy? That couldn't be further from the truth. They were planning to go traveling together. They were sitting in the Jacuzzi, talking about their plans for retirement, the trips they were going to take.

[Advertiser]

You know what I saw there.

[Host]

When.

[Advertiser]

I saw your husband's body. That's a pretty violent attack. Okay. And if he encountered something that would do what we see there, you're gonna hear it. You're gonna hear something.

[Cindy Crawford]

And Sandy reiterates that she left the jets running when she went to get dressed while Jim brought in the dogs. The jets, according to Sandy, are why she couldn't hear Jim scream.

[Advertiser]

I don't care if you've got a tank cranked up in that bathroom with you, you're gonna hear something. When somebody encounters somebody that is stabbing.

[Host]

Somebody, I wish I had, but I.

[Advertiser]

That violently that many times, you're gonna hear that.

[Host]

I didn't hear anything. I wish I had heard something. I didn't.

[Advertiser]

See that. What we're seeing there, the physical evidence that's there and what you're telling us, just not adding up. Sandra, I'm not. I'm not wanting to call you a liar, but I'm saying, I mean, I know they hear something. You're our only person that was in that house. You know, we're here. We're gonna try to get to the bottom of this. But you're the only one that was in that house. Wasn't it ironic that you could you black out exact time when he's getting stabbed and bludgeon?

[Host]

I don't have an answer for you.

[Advertiser]

Multiple times like that. Dying, screaming for help.

[Host]

Oh, my gosh. Just. You know what?

[Advertiser]

I don't understand that. That is ironic to me. It's a lot of blood that he lost. Could you hear him?

[Host]

No, I couldn't hear him.

[Advertiser]

Could you hear him yelling for help?

[Host]

No.

[Advertiser]

Could you hear him screaming?

[Host]

I didn't hear anything.

[Advertiser]

I mean, he was in pain. We know that he suffered a lot. I need you to help me. I need you to help me. I need you to help me on this.

[Cindy Crawford]

It's as though Detective Carrozel is channeling Jim in his final moments.

[Advertiser]

Can you help me? I need you to help me, Sandra. Can you help me?

[Host]

I didn't hear anything.

[Advertiser]

Can you help me? I need you to help me, Sandra. Can you help me?

[Host]

I didn't hear anything.

[Advertiser]

I need help, Sandra. Please help me. Screaming after screaming after screaming. He's in pain. I need help.

[Cindy Crawford]

The bizarre incantation goes on and on.

[Advertiser]

Help me, Sandra. Help me. Tell me. Your husband's a nice guy. He went through a lot of pain. Help me.

[Cindy Crawford]

Until Sandy's finally had enough.

[Host]

I didn't hear anything. Stop already.

[Advertiser]

I need help. I need help. Help me.

[Host]

That's it.

[Advertiser]

That's it.

[Host]

I need a lawyer. I'm not talking anymore because you guys are just trying to torture me here.

[Advertiser]

I'm not torture you. I'm asking for help.

[Cindy Crawford]

But they're not done yet.

[Advertiser]

You love your husband?

[Host]

Yes, I love my husband.

[Advertiser]

Did you care about him?

[Host]

Yes.

[Advertiser]

She wants to finally kill him.

[Host]

Of course.

[Advertiser]

I don't think he did. Did you stage that at your house? No.

[Host]

Stage it?

[Advertiser]

Yeah. Did you plan this?

[Host]

No. No, I did not.

[Advertiser]

Would you tell me if you did?

[Host]

I wouldn't even know where to start to stage it. And how am I going to tie myself up like that and not even be able to get out of it? I mean, I. I really was trying to get out of it.

[Advertiser]

Did you kill your husband?

[Host]

No, I didn't.

[Cindy Crawford]

It's 1:14am on Christmas Eve. Nine hours since Sandy was found by her family. Since they all learned that Jim had been murdered. The interview's over and she's exhausted. She's bewildered. To Sandy, she can't fathom how this nightmare has happened. Her husband's dead and somehow she's being accused for his murder.

[Host]

I'm good.

[Cindy Crawford]

In an emergency, I can stay calm. I know what I need to do. I can assess the situation. You've been listening to Hands tied, a new eight part true crime series from BBC Studios and iHeart podcast. New episodes will be released weekly, so subscribe or follow on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss out. If you like the show, please help us by spreading the word or giving us a five star review. I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and the producer is Maggie Latham. Sound design in mix is by Tom Brignall. Our script consultant is Emma Weatherall. Production support is from Dan Marchini, Elena Boateng and Mabel Finnegan Wright. And our production executive is Laura Jordan Rowell. The series was developed by Anya Saunders and emma Shaw. At iHeart, the managing executive producer is Christina Everett and for BBC Studios the executive producer is Jo Kent. Does friendly have a taste? If it does, it's probably like hello's peppermint flavored anti plaque and whitening toothpaste. Brush away plaque, show tartar who's boss and remove surface stains to naturally whiten. Hello's thoughtful and flavor forward products make brushing your teeth feel like a confetti filled bathroom dance party. So say hello to hello with the always cruelty free never tested on animals toothpaste that's made to spread smiles. Visit helloproducts.com and let hello add some everyday yay into your life untold stories. Life with a severe autoimmune condition. A production from Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenics is back with Season four. Join me, Martine Hackett, as we explore the realities of life with myasthenia gravis or mg and chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy, or cidp, we'll uncover the stories of resilience and self advocacy in the face of uncertainty. From overcoming misdiagnosis to finding empowerment in small victories, these are moments that change us. Here's a glimpse of what's in store.

[Host]

Whenever I go to my specialist, he mentions the R word remission. Is it possible? Like, is it over? But also knowing it's never really over, but just being able to say, hey there, there's light at the end of the tunnel. Stay the course. Don't give up on yourself. Every single person living with the autoimmune illness has a life worth living, and.

[Maggie Robinson Katz]

It'S up to you to define that.

[Host]

To capture that, and to go guns blazing.

[Cindy Crawford]

Follow and listen to untold Stories on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Advertiser]

This is Bo Nang from Las Culturistas, and I'm Matt Rogers, also a host of Las Culturistas. Big news to share. Do you know what the perfect thing to bring to any party is? Bowen, we talked about this.

[Cindy Crawford]

I'm a person, not a thing.

[Advertiser]

Oh, I didn't mean you. I meant Casamigos. Okay, chic. And honestly, the only other correct answer A Casamigos margarita. That's a sleigh. Ah, Casamigos. Anything is a sleigh. Because anything goes with my Casamigos. Anything goes with my Casamigos. Bo, you're a poet. Please drink responsibly. Imported by Casamigos Spirits Company, White Plains, New York. Casamigos Tequila. 40% alcohol by volume.

[Howie Mandel]

You're great at protecting your own personal information. You probably even use things like two factor authentication, strong passwords, and a vpn. But as much as you try to be in control of how your information is protected, there are lots of places that also have it and they might not be as careful as you are. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second for identity threats. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all LifeLock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning LifeLock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan. If you lose money due to identity theft, you might not be able to control how others handle your personal information, but you can help protect it with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELock and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off. Terms apply.

[Host]

This is an iheart podcast.